Stuck rear drum, how do i remove it?

[Lord Warlock]

My car has front discs, rear drums, front discs have been updated with new parts, now i'm moving to the back wheels.  The drum appears to be stuck as its sat in one location for a long time, probably about six years since i moved it into this position in a garage.  Three of the wheel studs have fallen inside the hub, so i wanted to remove the drum, get the studs out, and either order new ones or put these back in place.  However, the drum cover appears to be stuck and doesn't budge.  Beating on it with a hammer to loosen the rust scale hasn't improved it, how do you remove a stubborn drum brake cover? 

I have two brand new drums i can install if i can get the old ones off, also have new shoes.  But i'm stymied on how to get the old drum off the axle.  Thought i'd try using a wheel/gear puller to get it off but the one i have is only good for an 8' spread, which isn't large enough to reach the edge, none of the rental stores nearby even carries a large gear puller anymore.  Hate to have to buy one for a one time use but will do what i have to.  There has to be a solution.  How do yall deal with difficult to get off drums? 

Thanks,

Lord Warlock

[el dub]

Beat it with a rubber or plastic hammer

[hawkeye]

Heat around the center with torch and keep tapping.  It will come loose.

[Hard Charger]

most likely the center hub is craped up but don't forget to back off the shoes and maybe shear of the shoe hold down pins too.

[ws23rt]

When you say it won't budge I take it to mean it doesn't even wiggle. In that case what was already said should work fine. Which is heat the drum around the center where it is tight  on the center hub. (Propane torch is fine).

If however it is not stuck there than it may be bound up on the brake shoes.  I had a drum that was worn so bad that the shoes were inside the drum almost 1/8 inch and it took a lot of backing off the star adjuster to allow them to retract far enough to remove the drum.  I bring this up as a reminder to others that may be looking at this and is a case where there was a lot of metal grinding going on.


Three studs fell inside?--Hope they don't hang up and add to your puzzle

[Lord Warlock]

Oh goody, i get to play with the torch...

Wish the wheel puller i had fit, may have to fabricate my own think i could actually build something that works, but torching it is worth giving it a try, not sure the rubber hammer would do anything when it ignores a 5lb sledge hammer.

I thought about backing off the shoes, can't find the brake tool that i know is laying in the wrong place somewhere in the garage, seen it, remember seeing it, but don't remember where.  Will have to look closer and see if i can find the adjuster through the adjustment slot, i'll try to loosen them before heating it and beating on it more.  does the wheel turn upward to loosen or down?  Actually dug out the old chiltons manual but haven't read it all yet.

Two studs had fallen inside before today the first one has been inside quite a while, the 2nd fell in about a month ago when i was putting new wheels on,  the third one dropped inside after whacking the drum a while today, they should be sitting loose inside but can't tell till i get it off and see.  With only two studs (next to each other) I don't trust lowering the car on the wheel without a jack stand under the axle.   

[ws23rt]

As far as which way to turn the star wheel.  It is always a hard one to describe but one thing makes it clear and that is if you go the wrong way it gets tight.
The good news is there are only two ways to turn it.

[Hard Charger]

As far as which way to turn the star wheel.  It is always a hard one to describe but one thing makes it clear and that is if you go the wrong way it gets tight.
The good news is there are only two ways to turn it.

Just did this a couple days ago. wrench moves towards the axle shaft.

had to bang the drum for several minutes and one side I needed to use a screw driver to pull the drum out. you can back out the adjuster screw enough to knock it out of the way also so the shoes can float free.

[ws23rt]

As far as which way to turn the star wheel.  It is always a hard one to describe but one thing makes it clear and that is if you go the wrong way it gets tight.
The good news is there are only two ways to turn it.

Just did this a couple days ago. wrench moves towards the axle shaft.

had to bang the drum for several minutes and one side I needed to use a screw driver to pull the drum out. you can back out the adjuster screw enough to knock it out of the way also so the shoes can float free.

See what I mean---"Wrench moves towards the axle shaft"---?? It is hard to be clear but is not a problem.  One way works and the other doesn't.

I have a star adjuster that has a letter L stamped in the end of the stud. If that adjuster was installed on the right side of the car would it be correct?
My point is what is correct from the factory is not necessarily what we have on our 50 year old cars. And to tell someone to move the star wheel in one direction only to release the shoes could be missleading   

[chargerbr549]

Had an idea don't know if it will work, are the holes where the studs fell out big enough to get a 9/16 socket in there to take out the nuts that hold the axle on? If you can take the nuts off you can then take the whole axle out with the drum on then set the axle on end and hammer the drum off. Don't know if will work I haven't done this myself.

Kevin

[Lord Warlock]

sorry 540, the holes are the same size as the threaded stud, might get a small socket extension thru, but the 9/16 socket itself won't go thru that hole.  I could get a L shaped rod/lag bolt into the three holes without studs, and make an improvised wheel puller with them, but hate to spend the time and effort doing so.  If i go that way, i'll knock the other two studs out to get a uniform pull.  Luckily, i have a torch and a hammer already in the garage, so i'll try that first, if that fails then i'll try something else.  My dad is sending his wheel puller over with my daughter who is returning home for thanksgiving, if that doesn't work, I may walk the swap meet at the daytona turkey rod run this weekend and find another puller.  Saw a few on ebay that could work, but they use arms that you use the studs themselves to anchor the arm with, and without the stud i'm screwed. 

The problem with the star wheel movement is that since i haven't done it in a long time, i've totally lost the feel for it, remember that when you moved the tool in the right direction it would provide resistance but you could feel it move, but its been a looooooong time since  i  did it last.  

[Dino]

The likely problem is indeed the star adjuster.  If I recall, you need to push the lever aside with a small screwdriver, then use another to move the wheel.  You will know right away if you're going in the right direction or not.  A few turns and the drum should fall right off.

The drum covers are real weak, I ruined one with one blow of a hammer, had no idea they were so flimsy.  If you're going to toss these anyway then why not take an angle grinder and make a few cuts running width wise?  That'll give you enough space to open the drum and remove it without a puller.

[Lord Warlock]

tried heating it up, didn't work, so had to go out and get a new adjuster tool to try and back off the star wheel first.  My covers seem to be pretty strong still, i wouldn't want to try to cut one off with a cutting wheel, i'd end up cutting thru the axle or brake assembly behind it too, make more work and expense for me.  It was too cold to work long on the brake today, so will wait for it to warm up a little first, will try out the new adjuster tool tomorrow or Friday when time permits, and try to back it off first then will heat it and try to get it off again. 

[b5blue]

Having worked on very crappy old brakes you can take a die grinder or cut off wheel, even a hack saw or saws-all and cut/score as much as possible the drum in half. A few good whacks with a chisel and hammer or an air chisel and that thing will bust in half.     

[Lord Warlock]

I may have to cut it off as the studs may be blocking the star wheel, won't know till i try to turn it, its in the low 40s today so i'm not working on it.  It will just have to wait a few days. 

[Lord Warlock]

Well, an update to the drum problem,  the star wheel wouldn't turn, the studs and fallen in and around the star wheel gear and were blocking access to it.  The cover itself had rusted to the brake pads.  I ended up having to cut the damn drum off, and just as i feared when doing so, managed to screw up the axle flange, cut thru two of the stud holes, ruined one, i could probably use the 2nd i cut into, but it looks like i'll have to replace the entire axle and get a new flange to mount the wheels again.  From what i've found in the initial search the axles aren't that expensive, certainly more than i counted on spending for xmas on the charger but may as well get new ones.  

However, after getting the cover off, and disassembling the rear drum,  the cylinder was corroded inside and filled with crap,  I don't think its rebuildable at this point,  I may have to replace the rear brake assembly and if i do that i will most likely upgrade the brakes in the rear to discs.  Any recommendations on where to buy axles and rear disc conversion kits?  

[cdr]

dr diff has everything you need

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.doctordiff.com%2F&ei=nKeaUtWVKMSOkAeSi4CgCA&usg=AFQjCNGXmCi95o6LC5Pw4Chm_xQCgrdQfA&bvm=bv.57155469,d.eW0

[Lord Warlock]

still contemplating just fixing the drum or getting a rear disc kit,  can't make up my mind on it yet.  The cost of getting a new axle (or two new axles as i don't like having one side different than the other) eats a chunk of the disc brake budget, can get a whole rebuild kit to redo the entire drum assembly for both sides at a fraction of the cost, plus i already have new hub covers for the rear, and new pads, so have to make up my mind on the disc kit  still. 

[b5blue]

Repair and move on, the gain is not that big for cost spent.

[Lord Warlock]

ordered the axles and drum rebuild kit. 

[b5blue]

What bearings with the axles? 

[Lord Warlock]

they come with the green bearings installed.

[b5blue]

I have the same and they have been fine. Nice not worrying about adjusting. 

[Lord Warlock]

Just seems that every time i take something off, i have to spend a bigger chunk of change to fix or replace parts that i didn't intend to otherwise.  This started with replacing brake lines, only to find out the brake drum was stuck on again, it had been stuck before so figured it wouldn't be pretty if i got the cover off, had to cut the cover off, then had to replace one axle...getting two axles means i have to remove and replace the other side also giving me twice the work i had planned on initially, although it is better to have everything nice and new again after a long storage.  The car evidently disagreed with being parked on dirt for 10 years under a quanset hut style tent before i had the permanent structure built.  At least now when its stored, its dry and rodent free.  

This weekend i took the gas tank out, because i already had it jacked up for the wheel/hub and knew it had old gas that needed to be drained...damn that old gas stinks up the yard, definitely has a stale gas smell.  Now i have to decide if i want to replace the tank or reuse the old one, doesn't appear to be rusted at all, but its covered in undercoating, like every square inch under the car is.  Wish i could take the rear diff off to scrape/clean and repaint it, also can see i'll be needing to replace the rear shocks once it gets drivable, and the leaf springs could use a sandblast and repaint also.  Whoever undercoated the car did a thorough job of it, definitely wasn't someone with a can of undercoat spray.    

Now that the tank is out, i can have a locksmith come out and get the old locking gas cap out of the tube, was afraid of drilling the lock out would drop shavings inside the tank if it went that far.

[b5blue]

  Brakes are the most important system on the car and always the first to get a major overhaul on any car I buy. There is no point getting it running if it can't stop!
  Hang in there and fix it part by part then deal with getting it looking better. That lock is worth saving if it's a Charger lock! 

[Lord Warlock]

Wish i could save the gas lock,  it was a factory option on mine, shows on the build sheet.  But its firmly locked into position even though for years I could lock and unlock it with any key, I about twisted a key that fit off inside the lock and it didn't unlock, so i'll have to have a locksmith take it out, just my luck i managed to lose the key after 28 years of having it available (1 key only) took it off the keyring for some reason, and now its gone. 

Gas tank is wasted, looks good enough on the outside but the inside is gunked up big time, wouldn't trust it on the car again so Its going to get tossed in favor of a replacement tank.  chalk up another 150.00 for a tank and sending unit. 

[chargerbr549]

On your gas lock problem something you might look at is the lip that the gas lock catches on might be bent, years ago I bought a new gas lock from Jacks Auto Parts and it worked alright when i first got it but then i started to have problems getting the lock out once in a while to fill it up with gas, at first I thought it was the key and tumbler getting jammed so I quit using it but I think main problem was the lip that the lock catches on gets bent from inserting the gas nozzle to fill it up so if you get that piece straightened back out that might fix your problem? I remember the only way I got it out was when I was at a gas station and needed to fill it up with fuel in order to get home that night I just used a pair of pliers and grabbed onto the key and finally worked it out of there, it kind of bent the key up a little bit but it still worked after i got it out.

[Dino]

Wish i could save the gas lock,  it was a factory option on mine, shows on the build sheet.  But its firmly locked into position even though for years I could lock and unlock it with any key, I about twisted a key that fit off inside the lock and it didn't unlock, so i'll have to have a locksmith take it out, just my luck i managed to lose the key after 28 years of having it available (1 key only) took it off the keyring for some reason, and now its gone. 

Gas tank is wasted, looks good enough on the outside but the inside is gunked up big time, wouldn't trust it on the car again so Its going to get tossed in favor of a replacement tank.  chalk up another 150.00 for a tank and sending unit. 

Be aware that the new sending unit will not match up with the stock fuel gauge so it will be off.  Unless your sender is busted I'd reuse it.

[b5blue]

Wish i could save the gas lock,  it was a factory option on mine, shows on the build sheet.  But its firmly locked into position even though for years I could lock and unlock it with any key, I about twisted a key that fit off inside the lock and it didn't unlock, so i'll have to have a locksmith take it out, just my luck i managed to lose the key after 28 years of having it available (1 key only) took it off the keyring for some reason, and now its gone. 

Gas tank is wasted, looks good enough on the outside but the inside is gunked up big time, wouldn't trust it on the car again so Its going to get tossed in favor of a replacement tank.  chalk up another 150.00 for a tank and sending unit. 

Money WELL SPENT! Clean all fuel and brake lines very well, use forced pressure some how while apart. 

[Lord Warlock]

Sending unit on the original was working fine before, even has the grounding strap intact.  how does it come off the tank?  I know there is a ring that somehow comes off, but not sure how its supposed to come loose,  the old one is pretty dusty/dirty on the outside, but came off with the old tank, so should be able to get to it easy enough now.  

Ordered a new spector? gas tank since those seem to be the most recommended here, spent a little more than the others, could have got a tank and a sending unit for the price i paid but didn't want chinese crap if i can avoid it.  Been fairly disappointed with alot of whats coming out of china these days.

shouldn't have to reuse old fuel lines, have a brand new fuel line to install,  but it didn't include a fuel return line in the kit as i thought it would, think i disconnected that at the fuel pump years ago anyway since I took the vapor lock cannister off in the 70s. 

[Dino]

There is a sending unit lock ring tool.  The ring turns a few degrees and comes right off.  You could use the old hammer and screwdriver technique  but the $12 for the tool is a good investment.  The ring should be reusable, the seal may not.  You can buy both pretty cheap if needed.

[Lord Warlock]

The tank comes with a new ring and seal, so i should be good as far as that goes, just need to get the old one off to get the sending unit out, and clean it if possible.  Have a hammer and screwdriver so will probably try that first, I take it counterclockwise would loosen?   I'll probably have to get a new tank filler neck grommet/seal the old one looks a bit worn out.

Considering the fact that we removed the tank, and flushed it out 10 years ago, I would have thought it would be cleaner inside than it was.  It was coated in black crusty material so much that now i wonder what was in the fuel line and filter thats been on the car for a long time.  Filter is gonna have to get replaced of course.  No wonder it never wanted to start hooked up to the tank/fuel lines, but starts right up with a hose stuck in a gas can. 

[Dino]

Yes counterclockwise.  With the tank out, you may be able to put some big [pliers on it to twist but either way it should be easy enough to remove.  The ring only has to turn enough to clear the tabs.

Gas is nasty stuff, it was a good idea to get a new tank!   

[Pete in NH]

Has anyone else had problems with aftermarket tanks and seal rings/gaskets being thinner than the OEM stock parts and leaking badly. I went through a really nasty issue with this on on a 96 Jeep Cherokee. The aftermarket ring and seal was thinner than the OEM part. In the end I had to get original Chrysler parts to resolve the problem. I was wondering if there are similar issues with replacement tanks for older Mopars.

[Lord Warlock]

Ring came off easy enough with the hammer and chisel method, was pretty shocked with what came out of the hole, sending unit was covered in rust, but was intact,  the sock portion on the pickup tube was totally sealed off as the material had hardened to a point where nothing would flow through it, looked like it had been soaked in varnish then dried, and it had turned black.  When i touched it, or picked at it lightly, it broke off in three pieces.  The float arm still moved freely but have serious doubts I could clean this sending unit well enough even with a sandblaster or soda blaster (If i could get soda to come out of the tank of the cheapo harbor freight soda blaster i got last year).  I'll play around with it a bit tomorrow and see what develops, but to be on the safe side i ordered a replacement 3/8 line stainless steel unit off of ebay.  Didn't want to get a tank and then be not able to proceed and wait on a sending unit when i decided to put it back in the car.  Although thats really not a rush item yet, I still have to open the trunk lid and see how many holes i can see in the floor now that the tank is out of the car.  Suspect there are more now than before, and also suspect floor isn't near as sturdy as it was without a tank bolted in place. 

Did get most of the engine parts back together, except the idler arm which i conveniently forgot where it goes.  made a thread about that one elsewhere though. 

[Lord Warlock]

One of these days I will learn, and take pictures before i disassemble something.  how is the sending unit oriented inside of the tank?  Got the new unit, compared against the old and it looks like an almost perfect match, and it is stainless steel.  tank came with a seal and locking ring, the sending unit also came with a seal and ring also.  Now i just have to figure out how the unit sits, so i install the sending unit in the right position instead of upside down. 

[ws23rt]

I may be wrong but recall my new sending unit had two tangs on it that fit only one way. 

[Lord Warlock]

Got the new brake assembly put together, and then was able to mount the axle without too much trouble, didn't seem to want to line up with the gears but finally went in after a few minutes of trial and error.  


All buttoned up again with the new drum cover in place, meant to take a picture of the axle hanging loose, but had left the camera inside and didn't want to stop at the time.


New gas tank, sitting on a creeper, sending unit sitting in place, still needs lock ring to lock in place, but fingertips are too sensitive for that work, they've been punctured and scratched and are a bit tender now, it can wait till i'm ready to put the tank back in. Have plenty of more work to do before that happens.  



rear diff got a coat of paint, tried to keep the markings on the cover intact, although did cover a small area by accident.


Even got the drivers side brake line installed, still needs final tightening, but want to wait until i get the other side installed before i tighten everything down.  Get to work on the rest of the brake lines this week, before going home to visit family.

[Hard Charger]

Hey Warlock;   Fun job when the axle is still in the car.

I ripped my axle out with the springs to paint and rebuild it. It turned out to be a lot of work cleaning everything while on saw horses.

[Dino]

It's a good time to replace those shocks as well.   

[Lord Warlock]

agree, the shocks will be replaced when i can drive it to a shop, decided they weren't worth cleaning up at this point.  As for taking the diff out, that wasn't going to happen, way more work than I wanted to take on just to clean it up a little.  Only reason why I did get under there was because the trunk floor was no longer in place and i could sit up behind the axle to clean it off and paint it.  Plus that thing is heavy, I don't have much help with it comes to lifting heavy objects around the house or garage, the women are useless for that, and I've got a bad shoulder. 

I do want to clean up the tailpipes, just not sure what to coat them with yet.  Want to paint the exhaust manifolds also, they look like rust bolted to the motor, and the engine is fairly nice looking otherwise. Going out now to work on the distribution block, and other brake lines.