New engine pushrods coming off rockers

[Cooter]

PC seals will be small and sit directly over the top of guides. Look through the springs and see if they are blue, white, or some other color.
also will have a small 'ring' where valve goes through. Easiest way I know of telling if you don't already know what they look like.

[Calif240]

The pushrods are 5/16" at top and bottom...

[firefighter3931]

PC seals will be small and sit directly over the top of guides. Look through the springs and see if they are blue, white, or some otger color.
also will have a small 'ring' where valve goes through. Easiest way I know of telling if you don't already know what they look like.

Yep, the positive type seals are much more compact than the OEM umbrella seals and are ussually made of teflon as opposed to rubber. As Cooter mentioned there will be a wire ring holding them in place. 

With a .540 lift cam you should be able to move the retainer (compress the valvespring) .600 before coilbind or retainer to guide interference.

Keep us up to speed on your investigation. 



Ron

[Calif240]

Engine builder says that he's fairly sure that the valves are sticking open... could be from incorrect timing at higher RPM, or something else with heat in the combustion chamber. I'm pulling off the heads tonight to take in for inspection. They are 906 heads, the valve guides are trimmed down, and I can't see any signs of extreme heat and my temp gauge was showing low cause of the brand new radiator and high volume water pump. Will give you an update once we get more info. I'll try to snap a few pics also.

Terry

[Kern Dog]

I hope that you maybe MISinterpreted what the builder said. A valve cannot stick open due to incorrect timing OR due to engine heat.
I have met plenty of Machinists that really know and understand their equipment but once you deviate from stock, they get lost. My machinist is smart but he isn't as knowledgeable when it comes to aftermarket rocker arm systems, roller cam swaps, EFI, head porting etc.
I know that sometimes a conversation gets moving so fast it can be hard to fully grasp what the other guy is saying. We don't want to ask too many questions for fear of looking dumb to others.

[cdr]

old bad gas can make the valves hang open & Also bend pushrods

[tan top]

 oh no , sorry to see this        

[cudaken]

old bad gas can make the valves hang open & Also bend pushrods

While CDR is right, you should have noticed the stink of the bad gas while it was running, did you? 

[Calif240]

No gas smell... while it has sat since it got T-boned in september, it had 93 octane in it and I added another two gallons of 114 octane just to help ensure that it wouldn't detonate since I pushed the limits of compression for pump gas.

Here are the pictures after the head is taken off. All of the cylinders look really good except #4, which is black and oily. I'm thinking this might have had the pushrod off of the exhaust valve, so it was just intaking and then exhausting and coughing through the intake valve.

First picture is of cylinders...

[Calif240]

Picture of the cylinder heads... valves don't show any damage... I haven't moved them to see if they're locked at all. Was gonna take them as-is to engine builder so that we can ensure he sees exactly what is going on without me changing anything...

[cdr]

if you had pump gas in since September i'll bet that is what is wrong with your car. even if you put fresh gas in,, it still has bad fuel in it.

this ethanol blend fuel goes bad in a month or 2.

[BSB67]

I did mention valve/guide clearance, but I'm curious as to why the builder went straight to that.  Certainly could be valve/guide clearance, but the information so far has not been compelling as to that being the cause.  

I think he is implying that overheating the motor (too much timing) caused the valves to seize.  Interesting combination of both intake and exhaust rods falling out.

Remember, we're trying to figure out two things.  Push rods falling out, and one broken push rod.  

Check the two ball ends on the broken push rod closely for any marks.  Do you know which cylinder and which valve the broken one came from?  Check that piston closely for any evidence of piston-valve contact.  Arguably, even the valves from the non bent/broke rods that fell out could have hit the pistons too, if the cause was tight guides.  

[BSB67]

if you had pump gas in since September i'll bet that is what is wrong with your car. even if you put fresh gas in,, it still has bad fuel in it.

this ethanol blend fuel goes bad in a month or 2.

If this were true,  Everything I own would have bent/broken or falling out pushrods. 

[cdr]

i dont make stuff up!!! the fuel up north must be better than we have in south east texas. lol

[Calif240]

There are no marks on anything, cylinder walls look great, pistons look brand new, rockers are all good, lifters look new, nothing in oil as far as debris. Everything looks new. The plugs are different colors, some being white and some dark black, but I think this is from certain cylinders having the intake not opening and others not having the exhaust not opening.

One thing I forgot to mention that could be indicative of a hot cylinder... not sure... When I first started the car and was getting everything going, I had a vacuum leak that I wasn't aware of. It took me a while to find it, so despite me thinking that I had her starting around the right mixture with screws turned out according to Holley, could have been running extremely lean for the for few minutes.

Maybe a combination of starting it with semi old fuel, timing off 5-10 degrees, and a vacuum leak? The perfect storm?

I really appreciate all of the input guys... I'm young and inexperienced so I'm learning a lot (mostly through mistakes, tears, and blood ) - Thanks

[femtnmax]

I did mention valve/guide clearance, but I'm curious as to why the builder went straight to that.  Certainly could be valve/guide clearance, but the information so far has not been compelling as to that being the cause.  

I think he is implying that overheating the motor (too much timing) caused the valves to seize.  Interesting combination of both intake and exhaust rods falling out.

Remember, we're trying to figure out two things.  Push rods falling out, and one broken push rod.  

Check the two ball ends on the broken push rod closely for any marks.  Do you know which cylinder and which valve the broken one came from?  Check that piston closely for any evidence of piston-valve contact.  Arguably, even the valves from the non bent/broke rods that fell out could have hit the pistons too, if the cause was tight guides.  

I agree.  Maybe the valves did not hit pistons, but maybe did not close all the way either.  As said why the intake pushrods came off too???  I would take all the valves out of one head for sure, it is easy enough to do....inspect for too tight guides.

[Calif240]

I think I may have gotten info on what is happening:

Talked to Scorpion today (lifters) and they said they've seen similar on a few Big Block Chryslers in the past with high lift. They said that especially running SAE 40 like my builder recommended, that at startup, the oil has difficulty getting to the top of the block and all. They mentioned that there would be a little bit of lifter bleed off and with the oil not being up for the first 2-3 minutes, that the rods can sometimes come out during the initial first run (which would make sense why both Exhaust and Intake). Also, they said that they regularly have guys running 0.080" and 0.100" preload and they recommend the same for this particular build. Does that sound ok to everyone?

With the additional preload of 0.050", I'm looking at going ahead and getting 0.050" longer pushrods so that I don't get any ill-effects of having a "shorter" effective pushrod.

I'm going to do a bit more research and get everything back together after the valves are inspected and re-assembled and will update you guys again...

[firefighter3931]

That does seem like a lot of pre-load for a hyd lifter but i've never used a Scorpion lifter before ? 

If the manufacturer is suggesting it then it must be OK. Just make sure that the lifter isn't bottomed out when setting the preload and you should be fine. I would want to verify max plunger travel beforehand just to be sure.


Ron

[Kern Dog]

old bad gas can make the valves hang open & Also bend pushrods

I REALLY like to know the explanation on this one. Fuel has no ability to affect valvespring pressure or lash.....Bending pushrods too ?

[cdr]

old bad gas can make the valves hang open & Also bend pushrods

I REALLY like to know the explanation on this one. Fuel has no ability to affect valvespring pressure or lash.....Bending pushrods too ?

read this

https://www.facebook.com/DannysEnginePortal/posts/504131152978920?stream_ref=5

[c00nhunterjoe]

If its on facebook, it must be true. 

My car sits from november til this time of the year untouched. Ive never had this problem. That guy claims 4-6 weeks will do it. im sorry, but no.

Furthermore, i have a leaf vaccum that has been sitting for 2 years with gas in it. I just sold it and the guy wanted to hear it run. I ran it onthe old gas and it didnt explode....smelled funny, but the valves functioned...

[cudaken]

old bad gas can make the valves hang open & Also bend pushrods

I REALLY like to know the explanation on this one. Fuel has no ability to affect valvespring pressure or lash.....Bending pushrods too ?

read this

https://www.facebook.com/DannysEnginePortal/posts/504131152978920?stream_ref=5

CDR and Joe, I have had it happen twice. First time was in a Flat Head Fork Lift Truck I bought. When we started it it smelled like like hell, but ran. When we tried to restart it just backfired. With it being a flat head it was easy to yank the head, turned the head up side down, sprayed in carb cleaner and whacked the stuck valves closed. Reinstalled and ran fine. Second time was with a wood cheaper, that I just gave away.

Cuda Ken 

[cdr]

joe needs to go back to moparts,i did not insult him or anyone,he needs to think about that.

[fy469rtse]

Terry,
get the heads checked, i would be there when he takes a valve spring off, make sure he does the cylinder that threw the push rods, see if valve tight in guide
if everything checks out there, i would be looking at rocker gear, if its getting the correct travel sitting over the valve correctly
this is an area that most builders churning them out dont pay enough attention to,
your first phots of assembled rocker gear dont look right to me, looks like push rods are the wrong length
i would be paying attention also to rocker shafts as well , theres a certain way these go to oil rocker gear, ? are these rollers or bushed, without oil supply what happens with bush to shaft , heat binding there as well
take lots of photos terry , show us
i would like to see how rockers and shafts are orientated, I'm betting geometery"s all wrong, 

[BSB67]

I think I may have gotten info on what is happening:

Talked to Scorpion today (lifters) and they said they've seen similar on a few Big Block Chryslers in the past with high lift. They said that especially running SAE 40 like my builder recommended, that at startup, the oil has difficulty getting to the top of the block and all. They mentioned that there would be a little bit of lifter bleed off and with the oil not being up for the first 2-3 minutes, that the rods can sometimes come out during the initial first run (which would make sense why both Exhaust and Intake). Also, they said that they regularly have guys running 0.080" and 0.100" preload and they recommend the same for this particular build. Does that sound ok to everyone?

Hmmmm.  I believe that I asked you about plunger travel as well.  Anyway, that is a lot of plunger travel for pushrods to be falling out.  I don't think I've ever had a hydraulic lifer that had enough plunger travel to let the pushrods fall out, and I set my preload between zero, and 0.005".    It is also a little BS if the guy is telling you the push rods are falling out because of the oil you are using.  Also, high lift is relative.  This cam's lift might be higher than original, but I would not put it in the realm of "high lift".

You should get the specific instructions from the manufacturer of the lifter on the appropriate set up.  I think that Scorpion had some race type FT hydraulics that were designed to be set 0.010" from bottom, but were also very short travel.  Basically a solid that would pass for hydraulic in classes where hydraulic is required, with fat ramps, and high spring pressures.  If these lifters are bleeding down with a straight 40 wt oil, wonder what will happen with a 5-30.  

Your builder should know the details of what he is putting in his customers motors, and how to set it up.  Do you know the valve spring pressures?