4 hole carb spacer

[Charger-Bodie]

Probably wants more initial timing if you vac is low.

[Dino]

Probably wants more initial timing if you vac is low.

More than 24?  I'm going to need a really short mechanical advance then.  Maybe I should try full manifold vacuum advance?

[Charger-Bodie]

Probably wants more initial timing if you vac is low.

More than 24?  I'm going to need a really short mechanical advance then.  Maybe I should try full manifold vacuum advance?

Probably not the case if you already have 24.

[don duick]

 24 initial timing is a lot. my cam is 224/236 @50 and 20 is about the most my engine can tolerate before I have starting problems. My vacumn reading is 12  at idle in neutral. so your reading of 11 is ok. check that your total advance does not go above 36 or you will lose horsepower.  with your initial set at 24 you only need 12 degrees of mechanical advance which is not much and there is no way you can use the vacumn advance. take off your distributor cap and check the movement of the rotor button. My rotor button moves 4mm which gives me 16 degrees of mechanical advance. yours should be 3mm. to give you 12 degrees. I measured it from the tip of the rotor button (brass terminal)

[BSB67]

Vacuum always used to be in the low 15 range but for the life of me I can't get it there anymore, It's around 11, same as with the TQ although that too used to pull 15.........From idle I have a bit of a bog if I punch it but it's not nearly as bad as the one my 750 had. 


I'm looking through the FSM to figure out how to set the throttle cable but if someone can explain it I would be very grateful.  Kickdown linkage seems to be where it is.  Under light throttle it shifts into third around 47 mph.  Is that about right?

The low vacuum and bog are likely related and likely a vacuum leak. 

It should probably shift into third around 20 mph, but nobody seems to like that.

[Dino]

Good info, thanks guys!

I will do a vacuum leak check tomorrow to make sure. 

The problem is that I am not positive which cam I have as the PO couldn't remember.  He gave me some specs that matched up to what he though was in it but I keep forgetting what it is, the numbers mean very little to me.

I did set the timing per Ron's recommendations.  The engine actually sounds better if I advance it even more and rpm rises as well when I do this.  I am not opposed to retarding it and see what she does.  Don I'll measure the rotor tomorrow.

I'm sure my car used to shift to third sooner and I wouldn't mind if it did, but it's not that far off either.  I'll play with it once everything else is set up.   

[BSB67]

If it use to be 15", and now it is 11" something has changed.

[Charger-Bodie]

Dirk, did you swap intake too or just the carb?

[Dino]

Just the carb.

Here's the history since I got it:

'71 440 with Edelbrock Performer intake (non RPM) and Edelbrock 1407 Performer carb (750).  Electronic ignition with orange box and Accel coil.  Vacuum was around 15.  I say around because the idle has never been steady so neither is the vacuum.  Oh and I keep my idle around 800-850.  Again hard to read when it bounces.

The car would have a terrible bog all the time and it became hard to drive it because it was unreliable.  Hot start was pretty bad so I blocked the heat crossover and used Permatex ultra copper all around.  I knew even less back then than I do know so I never tested for vacuum leaks.  I always had vacuum advance hooked up as it ran worse without.  I tried full manifold vacuum but the car seemed to like ported a little better.

Tired of the bog I removed the 1407 and rebuilt the thermoquad that came with the car.  After learning how to set it up I got the car to give me 15-16mmHg vacuum at idle. The car ran way better with crisp throttle response and no bog anywhere.  Opening up the secondaries for the first time made me realize the potential it had.  It never ran so good.

I always had a bad fuel smell which only got marginally better with the TQ, but better it was.

Shortly after, the ignition started acting up and since the parts were looking pretty tired I decided to get the Firecore RTR system.  Unfortunately I never knew what the timing was set at.

In the year it was off the road I worked on replacing and upgrading much of the electrical and fuel system.  The old Carter fuel pump worked still but since I had installed new fuel lines and a vapor seperator I bought a Carter M4845, for  71 440.  The price was right so I thought why not?  I installed the Firecore system and set the timing to 35 total, I forgot what base was. 

Something I did made the car not as responsive as it was and idle suffered as well.  I played wiht timing and the more I advanced it, the higher the rpm went up and the better it ran, but now base timing was getting realy high.  Ron told me to set it to highest vacuum reading or 25 degrees, whichever came first.  It's set to 24.  This is when I noticed vacuum was down.

Jeff (71SE) noticed that the passenger side venturi was running fuel at idle and said there's your problem, thats why it's running rich and idling rough.  That made sense so I opened it up and played with floats and o rings.  When I was done the passenger side venturi was no longer flooding but now the driver's side was.  Thinking the carb needed a thorough rebuild again I removed it and got the 1406 to get by until I had the time to work on this carb, they do take a lot of time to set right whereas the 1406 was gone through in an hour or so.

So that's where I am now.  The cam is going bye bye next year, probably in spring, it all depends on where I am going to do my internship for school.  Still, the cam is not the only issue here, something else is off, I just don't know what.

I have a 71 intake here, the good one, but I doubt it'll be an improvement.  Still I'm not opposed to trying it.  I still have the 1407 and am also not opposed to give it another shot, but since nobody seems to have much luck with a 1407 on a 440, it may be time wasted.

The car does seem to run pretty good right now but the short gas pedal travel needs to be fixed first.  For that reason I did not take it very far today.  I don't care all that much that it doesn't spin the tires right now,  this carb is just for testing.  If I can get it to run right then great, but I hope to reuse the TQ again.  When those secondaries open my smile gets bigger.  Even with tall tires and gears it'll move pretty damn well.  I rarely ever drive on the freeway but when I went to Jeff's place about 40 minutes away I realized how happy this car is at higher speeds.  Anything above 70 and it's super happy, closer to 90 it's ecstatic.  Amazing response and great power, it goes from 70 to 90 in no time at all so I'm guessing that's when the cam is in its element.  I'd rather have it do this in the low range but it made for a nice trip nonetheless.

For whatever reason the fuel smell is way down.  It was stinking a bit today but I was playing with the mixture a lot and revving it so that was to be expected.  On the road I really couldn't smell all that much so that was excellent news.

I'm not sure what else I can do at this point but to check for vacuum leaks and measure fuel pressure. 

I'd honestly be very happy to find something wrong with either because it'll be a fairly easy fix.

I would like to try to set the distributor to get max vacuum and see how much the rpm goes up.  Then when I get it to idle right I want to see where it's at.  Is this risky?  I have a feeling it may be really high.

Also, the vacuum advance pod is currently pointing towards the front of the driver's side fender.  A bit mre and I'll be pointing at the top radiator hose.  Shouldn't it be pointing towards cylinder #1?

Jeff thinks the timing chain may have slop as the timing mark bounces a bit but I wonder if that's because the idle bounces and everything else just follows its lead.  He's probaby right though but it'll get fixed with the new cam install.

I still don't know how the linkage for the secondaries work as it prevents them from opening.  At idle I can rev the car fine, esecially at the carb, but when driving it feels like I'm running on the primaries only.  Can I test to see if the secondaries open without driving it?  My 1407 does not have this small piece of linkage.

[Charger-Bodie]

Maybe the intake gaskets are leaking?

[Dino]

Maybe the intake gaskets are leaking?

Maybe they are and you know what?  That would totally make my day because that's a real easy fix.   

Can I spray brake cleaner or wd40 on it or do I need carb cleaner specifically?  Rpm goes up if it has a leak right?

[Dino]

I sprayed brake cleaner around the base of the carb and the intake manifold without any changes.  For whatever reason the car won't idle at 850 anymore, it's either 750-ish or above 950.  I don't get it.  Car runs like crap, very little power.  Still only have an inch of gas pedal travel which I can't seem to fix. Idle is bouncing, vacuum is bouncing.  It's hard to believe this is all the cam's doing but I don't know what else to think.  I've tried everything and nothing seems to work. I think I'm done with this. I have spent so much time trying to get this car to run I'm at my wits end.  Oh yeah and it's stinking all over the place again.  

I'm pretty upset right now, I don't even want to look at the damn thing.  

I'll put in in storage in December and when it comes back out I'm removing the cam, this thing's is going back to stock.

[don duick]

I know how you feel been through this before many times. Best thing to do is forget about it. and come back later. All of my problems have usually been faulty ignition, coils and ecu, fowling plugs, lifter pump up and of course the dreaded carb. wonder how they kept them running back in the day when there were millions of these motors running as daily drivers.

[Dino]

Thanks Don, yeah I need to step back and chill.  I need the car for Saturday, I promised the members of the university organization I'm in that we could use it to attract people so we can expand the club and I would hate to let them down.  I just got fed up with it as I'm spending time I don't have trying to make it run right.  I'll just throw the TQ back on, even though the one venturi drips at idle, at least it runs alright with it.  I doubt I'd make it to college as it is now.

After that I think I'm done with it for a while.  I'll start ordering parts over the winter and will probably get rid of the headers and look for some hp manifolds.  I'm all for making cars fast if racing is what you want to do, but for a driver nothing beats stock.

[71 SE3834V]

Dirk, we need to do a compression check before you start buying parts.
Also put on the list to set the distributor drive gear to where it should be so you have more room for timing adjustment. My thinking....if who ever worked on it (replaced the cam) couldn't put the drive gear back in the right way what else could they have F'ed up.
When you had the valve covers off before did you roll the engine over and watch the rocker movement? Just asking.
Mine gave me fits trying to figure it out because the compression was pretty even in all cylinders and the vac needle didn't bounce and I had a wiped out cam!

[Dino]

I forgot about the compression test, you're right that needs to be priority.  I just ordered a 10 pack of TQ well seals and am looking for the base gasket.  That's all I'll buy for now.   

Once the TQ is back on it'll drive alright again although the venturi drips. I can come over anytime but Saturday so if there's something you need a hand with then we can work something out.  I'm in no hurry though.

Whoever reworked this engine didn't know much about tuning.  Adding one or two go fast parts without matching the rest is not the way to do it!  I wonder what I may find when I tear into this thing.

When I installed the distributor I did have the covers off to watch the rockers.  The dampner marks lined up with the rocker movement so I think that part was okay.

As much as I love the sound of this car, I can't wait for it to have a smooth idle.   On a positive note, I hooked up the air cleaner with the vacuum hoses and the pods and baffles seem to work.

Next year I'd like to replace cam and timing chain and maybe get another intake, not sure if it's worth it though.  I have the 71 model intake but it's a square bore and I need a sprea bore for the TQ.  I will paint the performer intake orange though.   

I'll leave the headers for now as they should work fine on a stock engine.  I'l replace them wih manifolds when I buy a new exhaust system.  This one will be fine for a while to come.  The cam and timing chain is much more pressing. 

[71 SE3834V]

I was concerned if you had good movement on all the rockers.
By all means, try to get that bug out of the TQ. Does the engine still have that cough/sputter thing it was doing at idle w/the new carb?

I'm just about ready to drop my car off the stands and move it out so I can move the trans out, clean it up and get it to the shop. Once the car is movable I can go pick up the engine and get it in the garage.

[Dino]

The sputter issue was during driving and the 1406 didn't sputter no.  The issue with the TQ sputter seems to be the floats.  I think I'll be able to get them right with a minor tweak, I think I may still be off the factory setting a bit but didn't want to do anything until that venturi leak was fixed.  The sputter is pretty minor now and only noticable at low speed. 

What it does at idle is the same with either carb, be it the TQ, 1406, or 1407.  No real change there.  The engine just idles like crap.  Idle now is actually worse than before yet it was real nice yesterday.  For some reason it didn't stick.  Fast idle is horrendous.  I don't know how to describe it but the rythm is off, kinda like a galloping horse. Think smacking coconuts together like in Monthy Python's Holy Grail.   

After a few minutes it settles but it's impossible to get it steady.  The 50 or so rpm it bounces with the TQ is about as good as it gets.  I' m real curious to see what cam is in this thing.

I still need to measure fuel pressure.  It may be okay since the 1406 had no venturi issue and they need about the same pressure.  I'll try to measure it Wednesday.  I thought I was done with this car but I was just pissed.  The TQ is definitely worth saving, it's a great carb but it's just a pain to set up.

Let me know if you need a hand pushing the car and parts.   

[71 SE3834V]

kinda like a galloping horse. Think smacking coconuts together like in Monthy Python's Holy Grail.   

Ha! one of my favorite movies.

The idle issue I was talking about was that cough or miss it did every once in a while. Remember I said "It's gonna do strange things, cough and not idle right with all that fuel dumping down it at idle."

I think the "galloping" you're talking about might be the engine "loping"?? You know, like a engine with a big cam and blower on it?
My car had a bit of a lope in it like it had a built engine when I first got it running in 2011. Kinda sounded nice when it was backed in under the carport but it didn't idle very smooth. Knew it wasn't quite right. Timing mark jumped around also. Found the timing chain slop was 13-15*. I figured the if the cam was running behind were it should be the valve timing would be off. Changed out the chain last year and the lope went away but the running problem was still there. Well we know the rest of the story.

If all goes well I should be running my trans in tomorrow. When I get it back maybe we can put it up in place then do a comp check on your car and jack it up and roll the crank back & forth and try to see how much slop is in the chain.

[Dino]

The first day I tried the 1406 the idle was smoother so it must've been that venturi dumping fuel.  Idle was still going up and down as it did before but it did sound better overall.  It didn't last though...

The galloping is much worse than the engine loping, that it does all the time because of the cam but when cold it sounded like all cylinders were firing at the same time, if that makes sense.  It only did this with the choke on though.  Once it warmer up it would idle back as usual.

I have new well seals, needles and jets, and a different kind of base gasket coming for the TQ.  I'm going to bolt it back on since I need the car on Saturday.

Let me know when you get the tran s back and I'll come over.   

[71 SE3834V]

Let me know when you get the tran s back and I'll come over.   

The trans is back! Only took 'em about an hour and a half! I shoulda just waited for it. Ha!
I'm a bit too sore to wrestle w/it soon and I still have the cross member to clean up.

[Dino]

Holy cow that was fast!  I can do Sunday or Monday if you like, no sure what the weather will be like.

[71 SE3834V]

Well technically I don't have it back yet.  Dropped it off at 3:30 pm and was called at 4:50 pm. Was too tired to run back out and pick it up. I will get it in the morning.
Will have to play it by ear. I want to pick up my engine this week weather permitting...

[don duick]

last time I tried different carbies I fowled the plugs by going from too lean to too rich, just a thought. Might explain the reason for your current problem.

[Dino]

last time I tried different carbies I fowled the plugs by going from too lean to too rich, just a thought. Might explain the reason for your current problem.

Good point, I'll check them.