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Author Topic: Engine build - exhaust  (Read 5908 times)
green69rt
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« on: September 14, 2019, 03:24:53 PM »

Well, it getting close to the time when I can start mine.   Things have changed so much since I had my first charger that I'm pretty much flying blind.  So here's the plan.  As people make comments or I change my mind I'll update this first post so if you want to see what the current thinking is then look here.

First, what do I want?  Always hard to describe but here goes.  I'm not a racer, never been one, and now too old to start.  Really building this car as a tribute to the new car I took delivery on the day of the first date with my current wife.  Everyone wants a little more power but every time I revisit my thing, I have reduced my power requirement.  Currently thinking something in the 450 - 500 HP range.    Currently the car sets with a TF A/T 3.91 gears and 235/60-15 tires.   Future is to go to 3.23 gears or even higher speed if I get the urge.  Smooth driving, no loud roar (to keep the neighbors calm.)  Almost forgot to add cost, keep it at $10K is OK, $12K and I'm starting to get nervous, $15 K and I'll have to rethink the whole deal.

forgot, A/C, I live in Houston.

So as a start I took the list from Challenger340 thread on the "lowly 440" and pasted it here.  I have already thought of some alternatives but I'll try to list them and why.  So to start.....

PARTS;
1976 400 Block, Bored .030"
                 This block was bored to clean up the cylinders for inspection but a torque plate was not used,  this might require a rebore.
440 source stroker - 470 seems OK to me, but the 451 or 500 kit may work better.  
Crank from the 440 kit
Clevitte Rod & Main Bearings
rods from the 440 kit
Forged F.T. Pistons
5/64" Moly Ringpack(cheap)
Stealth Heads from 440 Source  (no decision yet)
CompCams XE274H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam (there is a XE268 that may be ok)
Johnson Hylift Lifters
Performer rpm Intake Manifold
750 Holley or edelbrock
440 Source; Rockers Arms, Hold-Downs, etc., Pushrods, Windage Tray, Head Bolts, 6 qt HEMI Pan & Pickup, Balancer, Dipstick, CompCams 10* Ret & Locks
Melling HV Pump & drive
Cloyes T/Chain & Gears
Mopar Performance V/Covers
Speed Pro O/H Gasket Set

LABOR:
* Block Machine Package, ( add: Beam Connecting Rods & re-Harden)
* Balance Complete
* New Cylinder Head "Prep for Service"
* OOTB (no port work) Cylinder Heads
* Port Match Intake Manifold
* Assemble Engine
* Dyno Test & Tune Engine


So let the fun and games begin.




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b5blue
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2019, 07:33:50 PM »

   I'm using Sidewinder heads from Todd @ Moparts, big savings and his shop had mine ready to bolt on out of the box. Proform 750 vacuum secondary was easy to jet up and adjust to match my build and bolted to a CH4B intake left room for a insulating 1/2 spacer yet still run a dual snorkel factory air cleaner. The Firecore RTR dizzy/coil/wires set has been flawless.
   Try thinking torque off the line (What you feel pulling away)and horsepower top end. (Tickets you can't pay.) If I had your budget I'd ship to or have CDR build and ship to me as the devil is in the details!  2thumbs Good Luck!
   In 24 years with many as my "main ride" A/C was the single biggest game changer for me, it's just so much more enjoyable driving and having a Charger!
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Canadian1968
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2019, 08:26:06 AM »

My build was similar .

I did not have the money for the aftermarket heads.  So had port work on my 906's. I used the XE274 cam , with comp cams, springs/ lifters/ timing set. Port matched performer RPM intake.  ICON pistons. Headman headers.  stock rods with ARP bolts . Had the whole mess blue printed and balanced.   Cost came in around $4200  CAD.   If you go with the aluminum heads your adding a min $2500 , puts  you in the $7000 range... Still far short of your 10K budget.


Dont forget a Torque Converter........ and transmission rebuild. 
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b5blue
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2019, 09:14:11 AM »

2 new heads built, shipped to my door with new head bolts: 1,375.00  2thumbs
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Canadian1968
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2019, 09:16:19 AM »

Aluminum heads Huh?  Where did you find that deal...  drool5

In Canada ? 
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Challenger340
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2019, 01:34:24 PM »

Well, it getting close to the time when I can start mine.   Things have changed so much since I had my first charger that I'm pretty much flying blind.  So here's the plan.  As people make comments or I change my mind I'll update this first post so if you want to see what the current thinking is then look here.

First, what do I want?  Always hard to describe but here goes.  I'm not a racer, never been one, and now too old to start.  Really building this car as a tribute to the new car I took delivery on the day of the first date with my current wife.  Everyone wants a little more power but every time I revisit my thing, I have reduced my power requirement.  Currently thinking something in the 450 - 500 HP range.    Currently the car sets with a TF A/T 3.91 gears and 235/60-15 tires.   Future is to go to 3.23 gears or even higher speed if I get the urge.  Smooth driving, no loud roar (to keep the neighbors calm.)  Almost forgot to add cost, keep it at $10K is OK, $12K and I'm starting to get nervous, $15 K and I'll have to rethink the whole deal.

forgot, A/C, I live in Houston.

So as a start I took the list from Challenger340 thread on the "lowly 440" and pasted it here.  I have already thought of some alternatives but I'll try to list them and why.  So to start.....

PARTS;
1976 400 Block, Bored .030"
                 This block was bored to clean up the cylinders for inspection but a torque plate was not used,  this might require a rebore.
440 source stroker - 470 seems OK to me, but the 451 or 500 kit may work better.
400 Blocks while cool and strong, typically sacrifice some Piston skirt length to maintain Rod Length ? just saying.... the shorter skirt Pistons can be noisey depending up "who and how" they are fit ? and while a T-Plate is NOT required for the actual BORING process, try and find a Shop that has one for the HONING process for best result and quite Piston operation, especially in a street car. 
Crank from the 440 kit
Clevitte Rod & Main Bearings
rods from the 440 kit
Forged F.T. Pistons
5/64" Moly Ringpack(cheap)  Most Pistons if not ALL forgings for the low-deck 400 based performance Engines are NOT serviced with 5/64" ring packs, you will need the 1/16" or 1.5 mm ring packs,more $$
Stealth Heads from 440 Source  (no decision yet) We still use the Stealth's for that "factory" under hood appearance when asked, never had a problem with them, more than capable of 500hp OOTB depending upon Cam, but neither the XE274 nor the XE268 will get there on the Stealth's OOTB.... more like 450 hp to 470 hp with those Cams
CompCams XE274H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam (there is a XE268 that may be ok)Cam Duration @ 050/size is dependent upon Engine size? nail down what size engine FIRST before deciding, and make sure to upgrade whatever Cam to the "3-Bolt" Timing Gear configuration.
Johnson Hylift Lifters  Dunno if Johnson is still a good tip, maybe just Buy Comp Cams 822-16
Performer rpm Intake Manifold
750 Holley or edelbrock We haven't experienced much success with the older eddy Carbs... maybe the newer AVS ?
440 Source; Rockers Arms, Hold-Downs, etc., Pushrods, Windage Tray, Head Bolts, 6 qt HEMI Pan & Pickup, Balancer, Dipstick, CompCams 10* Ret & Locks 440 Source Rocker Arms aren't the hot ticket IMO, maybe consider spending on the Comp Cams 1621-16 and 5/16" Hi Tech Ball & Ball Pushrods.
Melling HV Pump & drive
Cloyes T/Chain & Gears Comp Cams 2109 is fine, it is a 3-Bolt Gear and must less $$
Mopar Performance V/Covers
Speed Pro O/H Gasket Set

LABOR:
* Block Machine Package, ( add: Beam Connecting Rods & re-Harden)
* Balance Complete
* New Cylinder Head "Prep for Service"
* OOTB (no port work) Cylinder Heads
* Port Match Intake Manifold
* Assemble Engine
* Dyno Test & Tune Engine


So let the fun and games begin.

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Challenger340
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2019, 01:48:03 PM »

My build was similar .

I did not have the money for the aftermarket heads.  So had port work on my 906's. I used the XE274 cam , with comp cams, springs/ lifters/ timing set. Port matched performer RPM intake.  ICON pistons. Headman headers.  stock rods with ARP bolts . Had the whole mess blue printed and balanced.   Cost came in around $4200  CAD.   If you go with the aluminum heads your adding a min $2500 , puts  you in the $7000 range... Still far short of your 10K budget.


Dont forget a Torque Converter........ and transmission rebuild. 

I dunno about Aluminum Heads being minimum $2,500.  Canadian Dollars ?

We're in Canada...
and we just went through/SOLD a pair of Stealth's to a customer(from our stock)
Ported to 300 cfm @ .600" Lift
Checked/Prepped for Service W/Comp Cams 10* Locks & Retainers we installed
Freight & Taxes in was $2,500 to him ?

As a comparison... we only see 265 cfm from the OOTB Edelbrock Performer rpm's/E-Streets/Sidewinder's, etc on our Flow Bench ? so a pretty frigg'in stout set of Stealth's ?

We can't do it all the time obviously as just waaay too busy with better paying Jobs, so only on an "as time permits" basis .... just say'in... it ain't "minimum" $2,500 for Aluminum Heads in Canada ?
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green69rt
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2019, 02:18:08 PM »

Thanks for the input.  Getting ready to fly away tomorrow so not much time to digest all the comments.  I'll update when I get back.

CDR is helping me with this project, he lives close and I'm going to use his machinist so that decision is made.
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Canadian1968
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2019, 05:08:29 PM »

Im throwing out the 2500 number from when I was looking at heads about 2 years ago now. Maybe they have dropped

I just did a quick check.... Stealth heads, $1000 bucks for the pair, 228 Shipping to Ontario , + 13% Tax.  with exchage = $1834. CAN.   don't know if I would get dinged on Duty as well . 

So I do stand corrected.  it looks closer to $2000 mark as is OOTB with factory locks.


STill like to know where they got heads for 1375 !!

Challenger340. You are in ONtario are you not?

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b5blue
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2019, 09:31:59 PM »

Sidewinder heads from Moparts.  2thumbs  http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/Sidewinder.html
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Challenger340
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2019, 03:08:45 PM »

Thanks for the input.  Getting ready to fly away tomorrow so not much time to digest all the comments.  I'll update when I get back.

CDR is helping me with this project, he lives close and I'm going to use his machinist so that decision is made.

oops, I must have missed that ?
if you've got Charlie on it then you are in GREAT hands 2thumbs

Don't even bother on here... Engines by "Committee" are a mess !     imo, just do whatever Charlie suggests
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Challenger340
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2019, 03:11:22 PM »

Im throwing out the 2500 number from when I was looking at heads about 2 years ago now. Maybe they have dropped

I just did a quick check.... Stealth heads, $1000 bucks for the pair, 228 Shipping to Ontario , + 13% Tax.  with exchage = $1834. CAN.   don't know if I would get dinged on Duty as well .  

So I do stand corrected.  it looks closer to $2000 mark as is OOTB with factory locks.


STill like to know where they got heads for 1375 !!

Challenger340. You are in ONtario are you not?



Nope, we're out by Fernie BC
usually Dyno in Calgary, we ship to Edmonton, Saskatoon/Swift Current and Vancouver.

Stealth Heads we're usually all in somewhere around $1,500 to $1,600 CND depending on USD exchange rate, but we order multiple sets at a time..... same as E-Streets, etc., sometimes half a dozen pairs at a time ?

I mean it only makes sense time-wise ? which, all we do is charge for our TIME which seems the fairest way everybody can live with ?

If you can then split the Hour it takes to order SIX of something 6 ways it's minimal charge ?
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Canadian1968
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2019, 05:59:55 PM »

Sidewinder heads from Moparts.  2thumbs  http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/Sidewinder.html

Pretty cool ....   Not that I have the money to get a set of heads right now even at a great price like that !!

But always good to know where i can get them ,

Challenger340 that is a great price and shows what you can get when you buy in " bulk " , great to show you pass that on to your customers as well !!!

But I will step out as I have slightly hijacked this thread!!!
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cdr
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2019, 07:00:19 PM »

Thanks for the input.  Getting ready to fly away tomorrow so not much time to digest all the comments.  I'll update when I get back.

CDR is helping me with this project, he lives close and I'm going to use his machinist so that decision is made.

oops, I must have missed that ?
if you've got Charlie on it then you are in GREAT hands 2thumbs

Don't even bother on here... Engines by "Committee" are a mess !     imo, just do whatever Charlie suggests

Thanks Bob, I am very humbled by this coming from you.
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BSB67
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2019, 04:29:38 AM »


.......if you've got Charlie on it then you are in GREAT hands 2thumbs

Don't even bother on here... Engines by "Committee" are a mess !     imo, just do whatever Charlie suggests

Good advice right there.  Otherwise, we'll have you spinning in circles in no time.
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500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph
c00nhunterjoe
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2019, 08:02:36 AM »

We need a donut emoji.
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green69rt
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2019, 02:08:04 PM »


.......if you've got Charlie on it then you are in GREAT hands 2thumbs

Don't even bother on here... Engines by "Committee" are a mess !     imo, just do whatever Charlie suggests

Good advice right there.  Otherwise, we'll have you spinning in circles in no time.
I am familiar with "design by committee"  so maybe I'll just update the first post with the actual bid and work with CDR and the machine shop.
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c00nhunterjoe
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2019, 06:46:43 PM »

I would leave the 1st post as is so it can be seen what, if any, changes you make for future reference.
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green69rt
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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2019, 03:37:04 PM »

So, things are happening.  Got a 1976 400 block from a guy in Ohio.  Already cleaned and bored .030 over.  CDR and I agree on the heads.  E-street heads($1335 US includes tax).  They came in two days from Summit.


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green69rt
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« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2019, 03:40:30 PM »

Now what to do with the old 383.  Not much of an engine but someone could build it up.  I'll hang on to it for a while and ask around.  Shipping this thing could be a chore.

One funny thing I found is the valley pan had an extra metal plate under the intake.  I took it off and found some insulation under it.   shruggy  Guess it helps to keep the carb cool.


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BSB67
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« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2019, 06:09:39 PM »

What chamber size on the E-Streets?  Are those straight plug? Decide on a piston yet?
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500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph
cdr
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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2019, 07:15:18 PM »

What chamber size on the E-Streets?  Are those straight plug? Decide on a piston yet?

84cc, straight plug  going 440 source 470cid
4.375"
(.035 over)    
(Dish)-17cc    1.480"    -.007" 9.6-1 w84cc      400.470.5070
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Challenger340
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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2019, 09:54:50 PM »

What chamber size on the E-Streets?  Are those straight plug? Decide on a piston yet?

84cc, straight plug  going 440 source 470cid
4.375"
(.035 over)    
(Dish)-17cc    1.480"    -.007" 9.6-1 w84cc      400.470.5070

Wise choices  2thumbs
this will be a fine mill !
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davidcam69
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« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2019, 07:43:28 PM »

Are you building this around HP exhaust or headers? I'm starting a build and would like to run HP exhaust and get 500 HP (550 tq) if possible.
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green69rt
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« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2019, 09:35:10 PM »

Are you building this around HP exhaust or headers? I'm starting a build and would like to run HP exhaust and get 500 HP (550 tq) if possible.

The original 383 was a 2bbl so there are no HP exhaust available to me.  Headers it is.  And I probably (but things change) have more modest HP expectations than you so we'll see what it produces.  Dyno results will be posted.  Don't expect anything till around the new year.  The shop is really backed up and I still have a lot of prep to do, parts to buy, decisions to make.  This is great fun!!
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