HELP!?! Bizzare tranny filter problem on a 727.... RD, John K.... Anyone?

[Bandit4142]

Ok, when I assembled my Charger my funds were extremely limited (as many of you can understand) so I ended up buying a used 727 for my Charger.   The tranny was "supposedly" rebuilt with only a couple thousand miles on it, so I figured go ahead and install it...   The only thing I changed was the pan and filter which I bought the MP Steel oversized pan from Summit racing.  This one here ( http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=DCC%2D3690730AB&N=700+4294922122+4294905607+115&autoview=sku ).   

I drove the Charger for roughly 500 miles when I started getting a delayed shift between 1st & second, and an occasional delayed engagement all together...   This led me to believe the tranny was slipping to a certain degree.   I contacted a local shop which was recommended to me from several local Mopar people for being excellent with 727's....      He drove the Charger, and felt that it simply needed a low/reverse band adjustment.   He dropped the pan on it and discovered that my BRAND NEW MP Filter had come apart and filter material had been sucked into the transmission...   If you have ever looked at the tranny filter there is the hole where the fluid passes thru into the tranny, this area was clogged with filter material from an apparent filter "failure"...

He flushed the transmission, installed a new filter from the local CarQuest, and explained that the bands were severely out of adjustment, and they had probably been burnt up from overheating the tranny... which was probably caused by the filter problem...   He recommended a rebuild.   

Today, he pulled the tranny to begin the rebuild, and to his surprise, the CarQuest filter has also now been sucked up into the transmission.....   Now, I could see one filter coming apart from poor craftsmenship, BUT TWO!?!?!?   I doubt it...  So now this has the tranny guy concerned...  As he stated, he doesn't want to rebuild the tranny until he understands why the damn thing is "eating" filters....  He's never seen it before, and neither has anyone else he knows.... 

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEA WHY MY TRANNY IS EATING FILTERS???   

For the record, I called John at CRT today since he is where we've purchase all the parts for the rebuild, but I haven't heard back from him....

[RD]

holy cow 

My opinion is this (and this is because I have never heard of this, nor had to diagnose it either):

Whoever rebuilt the transmission increased the line pressure causing the the valve body to require more fluid than stock...

couple this with the extension for the deep pan which causes a smaller, longer, and thinner area for the higher amount of fluid to move through, thus increasing the already increased line pressure...

and lastly, the filter may be sitting too close to the bottom of the pan causing the fluid to compress itself and travel more quickly, under more pressure,  into the extension, that is already causing a higher increase of pressure to a valve body that has been "reengineered" to put more pressure... thus you have 3x the factors increasing pressure

now take into consideration that the amount of fluid the valve body is attempting to "suck" into its internals is a lot, if the filter is too close to the bottom of the pan, this vacuum caused by the intake of the fluid, once at a certain level due to rpm of internals, could actually cause the pan to seal itself against the filter.  this seal could cause the filter to disintegrate and get sucked into the VB... the lack of fluid and the filter issue could cause the lapse in shifting (slipping) that you were witnessing.

THINGS I WOULD CHECK:

1: Check VB to extension to filter to pan clearances to make sure that the pan or extension allows for proper fluid transfer
2: Pull the VB and check the line pressure screw to make sure it is in the proper tolerance (if it has a shift kit, what kit is it?)
3: Disassemble VB and identify any major fluid flow issues (i.e. obstructions/cracks/improper wear/ flexed or warped VB due to heat or improper torqueing of VB bolts to housing)
4: Lastly, what did the fluid look like? shavings? smell?

all of this can be done without tearing apart the transmission, your tranny guy should know this.  If he does not, then get a new one.

hope this helps.  I am sure J_K will chime in.  He has been doing this a lot longer than I have and has forgot more than what I probably will ever learn.

[Bandit4142]

THANK YOU!   While I understand this is simply a theory based guess, it does give us something to look at.   The fluid was fine in appearance and smell, although there was a great deal of band material in the pan for the short amount of time I had driven it at the time I dropped it off with him.   And then after he flushed it, drove it for around 20 miles, then opened it up today, the fluid again, appeared clean with no aparent burnt smell...   The transmission had no shift kit to the best of my knowledge, but it was indeed a used/rebuilt tranny so what exactly was done for sure will never be known.   

I will call him in the morning and give him all the suggestions you mentioned.   Thanks RD, I really appreciate the help.   

If you have any other suggestions, or anyone else has any idea, keep em' coming!   

[RD]

THANK YOU!   While I understand this is simply a theory based guess, it does give us something to look at.   The fluid was fine in appearance and smell, although there was a great deal of band material in the pan for the short amount of time I had driven it at the time I dropped it off with him.   And then after he flushed it, drove it for around 20 miles, then opened it up today, the fluid again, appeared clean with no aparent burnt smell...   The transmission had no shift kit to the best of my knowledge, but it was indeed a used/rebuilt tranny so what exactly was done for sure will never be known.   

I will call him in the morning and give him all the suggestions you mentioned.   Thanks RD, I really appreciate the help.   

If you have any other suggestions, or anyone else has any idea, keep em' coming!   

now was it band material or was it clutch disc material?  they can look similar if they are small because they are made up of the same material.

If I was checking your trans, there is no better way of figuring out what is wrong than just tearing the thing a part.  Hopefully your trans guy knows what he is looking at.  He probably does, but his hesistancy to tear into this trans either tells me he is afraid of liability issues or he is not confident in what he is doing.

[Bandit4142]

He said band material, but I believe that was an assumption on his part.   He told me that he had to adjust the band "as far as it would go".  He stated that it was alot further than is typical with that type of adjustment...   And I apologize, I didn't mean to imply that he WON'T tear into the tranny, he just hasn't yet...   The reason he hasn't torn it down was because I also took him my original transmission out of my Charger in case he needed any parts for whatever reason.    He is trying to decide if he should just rebuild my original tranny, or use the one that is currently in the car.   

I think he (as you suggested earlier) might suspect something isn't right with the MP Deep Pan.   But, as you stated, it could be something with the valve body or a modification to it, to increase pressure that is being intensified by the "drop" filter...   

He actually asked me to get ahold of John Cope, and post on here for everyone's suggestions because the only thing out of the ordinary on this tranny is that deep sump pan, and although it doesn't really make sense, that was what he is suspecting is the problem too.   

[RD]

He said band material, but I believe that was an assumption on his part.   He told me that he had to adjust the band "as far as it would go".  He stated that it was alot further than is typical with that type of adjustment...   And I apologize, I didn't mean to imply that he WON'T tear into the tranny, he just hasn't yet...   The reason he hasn't torn it down was because I also took him my original transmission out of my Charger in case he needed any parts for whatever reason.    He is trying to decide if he should just rebuild my original tranny, or use the one that is currently in the car.   

I think he (as you suggested earlier) might suspect something isn't right with the MP Deep Pan.   But, as you stated, it could be something with the valve body or a modification to it, to increase pressure that is being intensified by the "drop" filter...   

He actually asked me to get ahold of John Cope, and post on here for everyone's suggestions because the only thing out of the ordinary on this tranny is that deep sump pan, and although it doesn't really make sense, that was what he is suspecting is the problem too.   

which band did he attempt to adjust, front or rear?  if the band will not adjust, than the band is broken.  this usually happens with front flex bands, but rear bands can break (though more difficult).  Or, the rear band material could be worn off and has grooved into the rear drum which is not allowing the band to adjust properly.  Either way, the most likely reason a band will not adjust properly is because it is broke.  He would be able to determine this with the valve body on and the pan off.

[Bandit4142]

I hate to say it RD, but I just honestly don't know.   Once he said the tranny was pretty well fried, my brain just shut down and I started evaluating how much money I had to rebuild a tranny...    His concern tonight when I talked to him was only in regards to the filter issue, and trying to get to the bottom of that...   While I've been tinkering and fixing up cars for years, the Automatic transmission is something I just simply suck at, that's why I took it to him.   I'm sorry that I'm not as well versed in auto's as I probably should be.


Hey... I just saw you are in Kansas...  Where is Pomona?

[RD]

I hate to say it RD, but I just honestly don't know.   Once he said the tranny was pretty well fried, my brain just shut down and I started evaluating how much money I had to rebuild a tranny...    His concern tonight when I talked to him was only in regards to the filter issue, and trying to get to the bottom of that...   While I've been tinkering and fixing up cars for years, the Automatic transmission is something I just simply suck at, that's why I took it to him.   I'm sorry that I'm not as well versed in auto's as I probably should be.


Hey... I just saw you are in Kansas...  Where is Pomona?

naah, its cool, we all have to learn somewhere. If I am going to fast, just tell me to slow down so I can help you understand better, that is cool.

Pomona is about 60 SW of Kansas City, Kansas and 45 miles SE of Topeka.

I do build transmissions, and I do not know how much this guy is going to charge you, but if it is above 450 dollars, you may want to pm me for a cheaper deal.  where are you located?

[Bandit4142]

I'm in Buena Vista, Co.  which is about 100 miles west of Colorado Springs.   When it comes to price, he told me $400, to remove / rebuild / re-install in my car.   That was with me buying all the components from CRT (about $600 for everything), so basically I'm paying for pure labor.   What I picked up from CRT was what John Cope installs in his Super Street 727 with the addition of a TF2 shift kit, plus some washer kit, and some other little misc components.   I just basically bought what John recommended in accordance with my future plans.   Great guy by the way. 

On that note, I'll call my tranny guy tomorrow morning and tell him to take a look at what you described.   I'll let you know tomorrow what I find out. 

Thank you again for your time, and I will undoubtedly be in contact with you in the future when it comes to my transmission needs.   Sadly I didn't realize you were that close. 

[RD]

I'm in Buena Vista, Co.  which is about 100 miles west of Colorado Springs.   When it comes to price, he told me $400, to remove / rebuild / re-install in my car.   That was with me buying all the components from CRT (about $600 for everything), so basically I'm paying for pure labor.   What I picked up from CRT was what John Cope installs in his Super Street 727 with the addition of a TF2 shift kit, plus some washer kit, and some other little misc components.   I just basically bought what John recommended in accordance with my future plans.   Great guy by the way. 

On that note, I'll call my tranny guy tomorrow morning and tell him to take a look at what you described.   I'll let you know tomorrow what I find out. 

Thank you again for your time, and I will undoubtedly be in contact with you in the future when it comes to my transmission needs.   Sadly I didn't realize you were that close. 

that's cool, no worries. John is a great guy, have had many conversations with him at shows and OTP.  I have learned a great deal from him.  The fact that the guy is removing and installing your transmission is a plus by far.  You are actually getting a very good deal.  I hope the quality goes along with that cheap price tag.

Good luck and let me know how things pan out.

[RD]

any updates?

[Bandit4142]

Yes and no...  Unfortunately for me, he left this afternoon on a two week vacation to Moab for the Jeep Jamboree out there...    He did tell me a couple things, that once again don't make any sense to me, but may to you.   First thing he told me was there is a spring on the pressure release for the pump that was obviously wrong...   He said someone probably did this to increase pressure in somekind of backyard manner.   He said that the spring from my original tranny was about equal to a spiral note book wire.   The spring that was being used in the tranny from my Charger was roughly the size of an intake valve spring from a honda motor!   He said it was ridiculously too big, this could have caused some of the problem.   He looked at the spring included in my TF-2 kit and said the TF-2 Spring was only about 1/10 the size of the spring he pulled out of my tranny....

The other thing he found was, one of the Servos was very badly cracked / fractured and leaking fluid onto the rear band.   He did inspect the valve body today and said that it had been re-worked in a fashion that he had never seen...  His exact comment was ,"I don't know if they were trying to do a home made shift kit or what, but they sure screwed that valve body up."   He said different portions were filled, some stuff appeared to be drilled, a bunch of odd stuff I guess.   After all this, he said we should simply scrap my old tranny that was having the "filter" issue, and simply use my untouched stock '69 727.   The only thing wrong with that tranny was the drum was damaged from a slipping band, and that he said we actually could pull out of the "now" junk transmission.   

So, at the moment, it sounds like he is actually going to use my spare parts tranny for the one to rebuild, rather than the one that just came out of my car.   BTW, he checked the clearence on the pan to filter, and said the fitment looks fine.    What sucks is, he's had my Charger for over a month now for something he originally told me should take no longer than a week....      I guess that comes along with the price that I'm paying though.....

[RD]

Yes and no...  Unfortunately for me, he left this afternoon on a two week vacation to Moab for the Jeep Jamboree out there...    He did tell me a couple things, that once again don't make any sense to me, but may to you.   First thing he told me was there is a spring on the pressure release for the pump that was obviously wrong...   He said someone probably did this to increase pressure in somekind of backyard manner.   He said that the spring from my original tranny was about equal to a spiral note book wire.   The spring that was being used in the tranny from my Charger was roughly the size of an intake valve spring from a honda motor!   He said it was ridiculously too big, this could have caused some of the problem.   He looked at the spring included in my TF-2 kit and said the TF-2 Spring was only about 1/10 the size of the spring he pulled out of my tranny....

The other thing he found was, one of the Servos was very badly cracked / fractured and leaking fluid onto the rear band.   He did inspect the valve body today and said that it had been re-worked in a fashion that he had never seen...  His exact comment was ,"I don't know if they were trying to do a home made shift kit or what, but they sure screwed that valve body up."   He said different portions were filled, some stuff appeared to be drilled, a bunch of odd stuff I guess.   After all this, he said we should simply scrap my old tranny that was having the "filter" issue, and simply use my untouched stock '69 727.   The only thing wrong with that tranny was the drum was damaged from a slipping band, and that he said we actually could pull out of the "now" junk transmission.   

So, at the moment, it sounds like he is actually going to use my spare parts tranny for the one to rebuild, rather than the one that just came out of my car.   BTW, he checked the clearence on the pan to filter, and said the fitment looks fine.    What sucks is, he's had my Charger for over a month now for something he originally told me should take no longer than a week....      I guess that comes along with the price that I'm paying though.....

the transmission does not need to be scrapped.  You can put in a replacement valve body and put in a new servo piston and the transmission would be fine.  That trans will need to be overhauled, but it is still operable.  If you have any other questions, let me know.  And if you can, get pictures of everything.

[mikepmcs]

Man I would definitely like to see pictures of that one for sure.

v/r
Mike

[John_Kunkel]

From the sound of it your transmission man isn't all that familiar with valve body mods, the TF-2 regulator spring is way different than the stocker; that doesn't make it bad and the rear servo mods do serve a purpose. Without pics or an accurate description of the mods it's hard to say but it sounds like a typical TF-2 installation to me.

I would agree with the assessment that restriction caused by the filter debris caused the damage. It's unlikely that the filter disintegration could be caused solely by the filter resting against the pan bottom, with the MP extension there is plenty of upper filter surface exposed to fluid for normal operation.

There is the possibility that the TF-2 kit installer used the wrong adjustment procedure for the pressure regulator; when the heavy blue kit spring is used, the spring plate is backed way off against the retainer but if normal adjustment procedures are used (or the adjustment is "tweaked" beyond stock) the pressure regulator valve might be jammed and unable to control flow.

The regulator valve controls the pressure by opening and recycling any access fluid volume to the suction side of the pump, if the valve were unable to move it might cause more suction than the filter can handle.  Highly theoretical.

[Bandit4142]

No, No, No,....  Once again, I didn't explain myself correctly.    He HAS NOT installed the TF-2 kit yet!!   He was simply comparing the parts coming out of the tranny to the ones included in the TF-2 setup!!  The TF-2 is still sitting on the bench next to the tranny!!   Its brand new and sitting in the box of parts from CRT.

God guys, I'm sorry.    He was saying that the release spring in the TF-2 kit (not in yet)  is 1/10 the size of the spring that came out of my broken tranny....   And the drilling and filing was very rough causing leakage across the valve body surface.   His belief is someone was trying to do a "Homemade" shift kit.   Right now as it sits, all of my new CRT parts are still sitting in the box, and no portion of the new build has begun, he's simply cleaning it up, dissassembling, and inspecting the broken tranny.     

Currently he is planning on rebuilding my original '69 tranny, and I'll just sit the tranny with the "filter" problem off in the corner of my garage for the time being.   The only piece he is planning on using from my current tranny is the "drum" or whatever component the bands use for a friction surface.

Once he gets back in town, I'll try and get you guys some pictures of the tranny.    Honestly guys, I feel bad because it seems like I'm making my tranny guy out to be somekind of idiot, and that is not at all my intention...   As oddly as it may sound I do think he know what he's doing.         He's built several 727's for local Mopar guys for everything from Drag Racing to Road Racing plus several extreme built Rock Crawling style trannies, and everyone has nothing but good things to say about him.