Re: just contemplating my build... [UPDATED: 4/2/08] - ALL DYNO #s

[max]

unfortunatly we have to be somewhat concerned over gas not only in the mpg but how poor it is getting as far as the amount of compression we can run in these older engines.

joflaig, the parts list looks good and i stand corrected on the gear ratio. a 3.55 gear will work well with 275/60/15 tires, i ran the same gear and tire combo with my challenger until i tore the gear up and it did very well, coarse my engine isn't 500 cid which is a plus in your favor.

the cam is going to be a major player since you not only have a large displacement engine but also power brakes.

Ron will give you a better idea on one, but more then likely the cam will need alot of lift and very little duration and a wide centerline. something around a 114 degrees.

i can't remember off the top of my head but if those EZ heads are aluminum then i would shoot for 10.1 compression, that will give you a good ratio with those heads and it will still be pump gas friendly.

one piece of advice on the timing set and cam, be sure to have the cam degreed in according to the cam manufactors specs. i have seen more then one way off in the past
and it will really hurt the performace of an engine.
 

[joflaig]

thanks for the input Max.

[firefighter3931]

Open Questions:
comp cams hydraulic cam (enough vacum for power breaks?)
compression ratio?
thermostat setting?
new timing chain?
aluminium main caps (main studs)?
msd ignition?
distribtor?
rev limiter?
fuel pump?


AND I know I am still missing a lot!

The list looks good....you've done your homework. I would order the heads and intake from PRH as he is a INDY dealer and is quite familiar with them. They should be inspected and corrected if needed. No, they will not be perfect out of the box....none of them are ; Edelbrock included. 

The Cam will be custom for sure. Like Max said a wide LSA grind will widen out the powerband, make lots of vacuum (power brakes) and be easy to tune. The Engle hydraulic profiles are awesome. I can look and come up with a custom stick if you wish. 

Compression in the 10-10.5:1 ratio with a dished piston will be required. Tight quench builds (.040-.060 piston to head clearance) make more power and are less prone to pre-detonation with pump gas. It pays to science out the shortblock in this area....the last thing you want is to have to mix in race fuel. There's no need for that if you do you homework and plan it out well. 

A 160-180 thermostat works fine.

A 3 bolt timing chain is my preference. The cam can be ordered with a 3 bold flank and i like Comp for the timing chain/gear set.

The stock caps are fine for this type of build but the mains need to be studded and align bored. Arp for the studs. If you're really planning to step it up in the future an aluminum cap should be considered so you don't have to tear it down later to add them.

I use the MP distributor with a MSD box and blaster coil. The MSD 6al has a rev limiter and comes with a 6000 rpm chip which is all you will need.

The Carter 120gph "street" pump is plenty for this combo. It's a mechanical pump. I would be looking at 3/8 in fuel line and a 3/8 in pickup for the gas tank.


Fuel economy won't be too bad with this combo as long as you keep your foot out of it. Having the engine set up for strong vacuum at cruising speeds will help bigtime. A big part of that is choosing the right cam so that the engine isn't lugging at lower throttle positions (hwy cruise rpm) and the converter is efficient enough to be locked up reducing slippage.


Ron

[joflaig]

Wow Ron, I am in your debt!

Yes, any more specifics you can provide about what you might envision in terms of cam would be appreciated. It's always good to go in armed when you visit the speed shop.

So given my overall goals of more power across the band, low-mid 11s with street tires and suspension (and better with slicks, etc), reliablity, low maintenance, and lastly *decent* fuel economy do you think everythng we've come up with so far foots the bill?

Thanks.

[471_Magnum]

I'm going to chime in on the fuel "economy" with my $0.02.

You'll never see double digits around town with that combo, even if you tuned it to the edge and drove like you had an egg under your right foot.

That said, invest in a wideband O2, a drill index, a jet box and do a whole lot of homework and you might get 14 mpg on the highway assuming 3.55 gearing or taller.

No out-of-the-box carb is going to give you decent performance AND fuel economy. Budget for some dyno-tuning at a reputable shop that knows carbs.

Or invest in a 40 gallon fuel cell.

[joflaig]

I could live with 8mpg (lawful driving conditions).

[firefighter3931]

Ron, you have put alot of great info into this build.

but i have to be concerned with the commit that was made about him worring about gas milage. that makes me think that the whole combo as a package will not be matched right and will end in it not living up to it's full potential and may even end up as a disappointment.

Max, i understand your concerns.  This engine combo can be made to run descent as long as it's not lugging along. Keeping the lsa wide with a niceflat torque curve is the key. To achieve this end the engine will be pretty mild compared tp most stroker builds but the increased stroke will make it a torque monster allthough it likely will fall off before 6k. That's just the nature of the beast when compromises have to be made.


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Wow Ron, I am in your debt!

Yes, any more specifics you can provide about what you might envision in terms of cam would be appreciated. It's always good to go in armed when you visit the speed shop.

So given my overall goals of more power across the band, low-mid 11s with street tires and suspension (and better with slicks, etc), reliablity, low maintenance, and lastly *decent* fuel economy do you think everythng we've come up with so far foots the bill?

Thanks.

The Cam will have to be ordered directly from Engle. I would order it with a 3 bolt flank....it' a better/stronger attachmant point for the upper gear. The cam i would use is a k60 intake lobe/ k62 exhaust lobe (split pattern grind) on a 112* lsa.

On paper it would look like :

288/291 advetised duration
238/244 duration @ .050 valve lift
.534/.539 lift
112* lobe seperation


As for running mid 11's on street tires...it won't happen. This monster will blow off any street tire at will. The engine will make enough power to run in the 11's but getting it to the ground is another story.  A set of slicks or MT drag radials will be needed for dragstrip duty. 

Power brakes will be no problemo and it will be easy to tune. As for a torque converter ; the turbo action 11in "hemi" converter would be a good match with this cam and your 3.55/28in tire combo. 



Ron

[max]

Ron, you have put alot of great info into this build.

but i have to be concerned with the commit that was made about him worring about gas milage. that makes me think that the whole combo as a package will not be matched right and will end in it not living up to it's full potential and may even end up as a disappointment.

Max, i understand your concerns.  This engine combo can be made to run descent as long as it's not lugging along. Keeping the lsa wide with a niceflat torque curve is the key. To achieve this end the engine will be pretty mild compared tp most stroker builds but the increased stroke will make it a torque monster allthough it likely will fall off before 6k. That's just the nature of the beast when compromises have to be made.


Ron

Ron thanks for clearing that up.

i figured a wide lsa on the cam would be great for the torque curve not too mention it would work well with the power brakes.

[joflaig]

I see phrases like "monster" and "pretty mild" and I'm not sure where that puts me. I wish someone in the neighborhood had a stroker, but no so luck!

In the post entitled "What torque Converter??? Fresh Rebuild 440" he's got a build sort of similar, I think, minus the stroker. Is the drop in torque and hp at about 5200 rpm on his dyno sheet sort of what you were referring to?

I'm so used to my stock 440, I'm trying to imagine percisely what this thing will drive like. When you say "blow off any street tire at will", what do you mean by that?

What stall on the turbo action 11 inch Street Hemi converter?

Thanks!

[firefighter3931]

I see phrases like "monster" and "pretty mild" and I'm not sure where that puts me. I wish someone in the neighborhood had a stroker, but no so luck!

In the post entitled "What torque Converter??? Fresh Rebuild 440" he's got a build sort of similar, I think, minus the stroker. Is the drop in torque and hp at about 5200 rpm on his dyno sheet sort of what you were referring to?

I'm so used to my stock 440, I'm trying to imagine percisely what this thing will drive like. When you say "blow off any street tire at will", what do you mean by that?

What stall on the turbo action 11 inch Street Hemi converter?

Thanks!

Strokers make monster torque as compared to a 440. By mild i am referring to the idle charachteristics and street manners of your proposed build. The cam profile largely determines how the engine will behave and with the cam that has been specced out it will sound mellow at idle compared to a smaller displacement engine (440) with a larger cam. 

By stroking the engine you are moving the powerband lower and with the right parts...substantially increasing that power. 

Blowing the tires off at will means exactly that....stab the pedal and the tires will fry. It's hard to describe unless you've actually driven in one....but the low end power is unreal. 

The TA hemi converter should flash stall at 3000 or so behind your motor. This will get the engine into the meat of it's powerband and launch the car like a missile. You need to match the stall speed to the rest of the combo or it will be a dog off the line. This often happens when guys overcam their engines and wonder why it won't spin the tires. I've seen it at least a hundred times on this board ! 

The reason for the 2800 stall is because you want to drive this car on the hwy. Ideally you want to have the stall speed close to the cruise rpm to reduce heat. All converters will slip but the closer you are to the stall speed the tighter they are. TA builds a very nice converter and they are reliable and efficient (low slippage = reduced heat). The 11in converter is a good compromise for this build....enough stall to launch the car and efficient enough to keep you and the trans happy on the hwy. The less slippage you have the better the fuel economy will be....simple as that !


Ron

[max]

The reason for the 2800 stall is because you want to drive this car on the hwy. Ideally you want to have the stall speed close to the cruise rpm to reduce heat. All converters will slip but the closer you are to the stall speed the tighter they are. TA builds a very nice converter and they are reliable and efficient (low slippage = reduced heat). The 11in converter is a good compromise for this build....enough stall to launch the car and efficient enough to keep you and the trans happy on the hwy. The less slippage you have the better the fuel economy will be....simple as that !

Ron, i'm glad you posted that about keeping the convertor tight enough and not causing excess heat on the trans from a convertor that is too large or loose.

this needed to be mentioned on alot of the builds i have been seeing on here.

several years ago there was a local fellow around here running a 1971 dart with a mildly built 340 along with a 4500 stall convertor and 4.56 gears which was a 50/50 car and he would take it to the track every weekend and drove the car to work during the week.

he had that trans rebuilt atleast twice every year and i could not get it across to him that the 4500 stall convertor was the reason for trans problem not too mention his track time was 8.40's in the 1/8 which should have been alittle better as well.

long story short he had more convertor then he had engine and it was hurting him all the way around. 

[firefighter3931]

Ron, i'm glad you posted that about keeping the convertor tight enough and not causing excess heat on the trans from a convertor that is too large or loose.

Max, a good quality converter will be tight for around town driving and loose when you want to race. The brand of converter has a lot to do with it's street manners. Having tried several different brands over the years i've concluded that this is one area where "you get what you pay for". It pays to buy quality in this area. 


Further to that thought...i see no problem with running a high stall on the street as long as it's properly matched to the engine combo and the car has enough gear. I know several who run 8in (5000 stall) converters on the street w/o issue. Granted, these are not el cheapo $200.00 converters either. 

several years ago there was a local fellow around here running a 1971 dart with a mildly built 340 along with a 4500 stall convertor and 4.56 gears which was a 50/50 car and he would take it to the track every weekend and drove the car to work during the week.

he had that trans rebuilt atleast twice every year and i could not get it across to him that the 4500 stall convertor was the reason for trans problem not too mention his track time was 8.40's in the 1/8 which should have been alittle better as well.

long story short he had more convertor then he had engine and it was hurting him all the way around.

Based on that description i would have to agree....the converter was waaaaay loose for that combo. More than likely it was slipping like crazy creating heat and fragging his transmissions. Converter technology has progressed substantially over the years and stall speeds that would have been considered "race only" are now commonplace on todays street cars.

I've got a Dynamic 9.5in 4500 stall going in mine with the 4.10 Dana and i'm not the least bit concerned.  At normal off idle operation (light throttle) it will behave much like a stocker...maybe slightly looser but it will be lots of fun when the pedal gets mashed. Having driven in a few cars with the Dynamic 9.5 i have to say i'm impressed....it is a quality piece. 

Turbo Action & PTC are other brands i'm impressed with. They work very well if specced properly for the application. 



Ron


Ps. Allthough this post is slightly off topic it is worth discussing in reference to the subject at hand. Hopefully it helps Joflaig understand converter selection a little better.

[joflaig]

So just to recap, here's the goal for this "mild" 500ci stroker build:

Use:
Primarily street/highway, couple times a year at the strip

Desire:
Better pickup off the line, more power across the band, 11s at the strip, very low maintenance, reliability, *decent* fuel economy (yeah, I know), fits stock hood, and lastly room for future growth (porting heads, etc)

Note: car has power breaks, 275/60/15 rear tires


Block:
Sonic check
cleaned, .030 overbored, honed, decked, align honed


Engine:
500ci Stroker Kit from 440 Source, premium parts, balanced, dished pistons
Indy Dual Plane 440 Intake
Indy EZ Heads (standard and fully assembled from indy)
Holley 950 dp HP series or a Proform 950hp carb (drop base air cleaner)
2" TTI Headers
MP Hemi 6qt Oil Pan
MP stroker Windage Tray

Engle Cam (k60 intake lobe/ k62 exhaust lobe --split pattern grind-- on a 112* lsa)
-3 bolt flank
-288/291 advetised duration
-238/244 duration @ .050 valve lift
-.534/.539 lift
-112* lobe seperation

Compression Ratio: 10-10.5:1
160-180 Thermostat
3 Bolt Timing Chain
ARP Studs
Aluminum Main caps

Tranny:
External Tranny Cooler
New Clutch
Turbo Action Hemi 11" Torque Converter (2800 stall)

Other:
3.55 Gears
MSD 6al Ignition (6000 rpm rev limiter)
MSD Blaster Coil
MP Distributor
Carter 120gph mechanical Fuel Pump (3/8 in fuel line, 3/8 in pickup for the gas tank)


What am I missing?


Ron, I've seen you mention both 3000 and 2800 stall, what would be the practcal difference?

I'm familier with the makers of aftermarket clutches and gears used with off-roading, what's popular for Mopar's?

What happens when you hit 6000 rpm with the rev limiter?

What would the practical difference be between 10:1 and 10.5:1 compression?

Thanks!

[firefighter3931]

What am I missing?

You will need to sort out the rocker arms and pushrods. I would use a set of the Crane adjustable ductile iron rockers with a heavy duty chrome moly pushrod. This will allow you to dial in the proper preload and with cam lifts exceeding .510 lift this is the better way to go. If you decide to go with a mechanical cam in the future....you will allready have the rocker gear to support it. 

Ron, I've seen you mention both 3000 and 2800 stall, what would be the practcal difference?

I'm familier with the makers of aftermarket clutches and gears used with off-roading, what's popular for Mopar's?

What happens when you hit 6000 rpm with the rev limiter?

What would the practical difference be between 10:1 and 10.5:1 compression?

Thanks!

Converters are advertised for a range of operation. The 2800 stall would be behind say a mild 440 but behind a stroker it will flash up higher. The more torque you throw at it the higher it will stall.

Richmond or Strange will both carry a ring and pinion for your differential. There are probably a few other companies as well....

The MSD unit will start to drop cylinders when it reaches the rev limit. It's commonly referred to as a "soft touch" rpm limiter and is very safe.

The difference between 10 & 10.5 won't be that much. I looked on the 440 source website and they have a kit that is ideal for your proposed build. That kit uses a 27cc dished piston which yields a 10.1 compression ratio with the 75cc chamber EZ heads and a .040 Felpro head gasket. I would only bore the block to .030 if at all possible to keep the cylinder walls thicker and to maintain the structural integrity of the block. 

It's also worthwhile to have the block sonic checked while it's in the machine shop. This procedure measures cylinder wall thickness. There's no point in spending hundreds of dollars machining a block that has thin cylinder walls. This will only cause heartache down the road.


Ron

[joflaig]

You don't advice I buy the fully assembled ez heads or does Porter Racing do a bang up job putting in a custom valve train?

[firefighter3931]

You don't advice I buy the fully assembled ez heads or does Porter Racing do a bang up job putting in a custom valve train?

Dwayne at PRH sells the fully assembled heads and is an Indy dealer. Indy is known for it's poor customer service but they do make a great product. The advantage of using a distributor is that if there are any issues you can deal directly with them and not Indy.  There have been some quality issues with Indy over the years and sometimes defective parts make it out the door. 

Cylinder heads are his specialty so if he sends them out they will be right. 



Ron

[joflaig]

Hey, Ron I posted the build as it stand so far on moparts and the first thing I got back was, go for the ez-1s! 

Anyway, there seems to be agreement that it's good build, but some opinions differ on the cam. They think a little bigger would work.

"go up at least 10 degrees on both lobes of your cam, something around 248/252"

If you care to bother here's the thread:

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3963293&an=0&page=0#Post3963293

[firefighter3931]

Hey, Ron I posted the build as it stand so far on moparts and the first thing I got back was, go for the ez-1s! 

Anyway, there seems to be agreement that it's good build, but some opinions differ on the cam. They think a little bigger would work.

"go up at least 10 degrees on both lobes of your cam, something around 248/252"

If you care to bother here's the thread:

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3963293&an=0&page=0#Post3963293

That's not surprising....most of the guys that posted on that thread are racers. I told you that this would be a mild build....very mild. 

AndyF has built a few of these and his remarks were similar to what i originally proposed. The std port RPM head for strong throttle response and a lower powerband. 

They cams those guys are recommending are solid lifter profiles and you were wanting a hydraulic cam for zero maintenance. Like anything it just depends on what you can tolerate i suppose.

Andy's comments on the EZ heads are somewhat correct but the ICH DP will pick up some intake charge velocity due to the dual plane design. It's important to keep in mind the proposed powerband of this build....and how you are expecting it to behave. 


There are lots of ways to make power and many different opinions on how to get there. 



Ron

[joflaig]

So many options!

I guess it's my understanding that to get stock RPMs to what the standard EZs are does require porting. Would there be an RPM combo that would be comparable to the all Indy combo? I like the fact that with standard EZs I have so much room to grow if I want to down the road. If however there is some advataged to custom RPM setup over the standard EZ+dp intake for what I intend to do....