Anyone else have problem's with stealth heads

[4406pac]

Anyone else have problems with the keepers on the stealth heads. Only mild build 383, .060 over, 8.5.1 maybe(120-125 cylinder pressure), 509 hyd cam, stock rockers. Looks like the keeper just split letting the valve drop hitting the piston till the head broke off. Just trying to see if this was a one time deal or has it happened to somebody else.

[Blown70]

OUCH!!

[tan top]

            OUCH     ..   
                             
try asking  over on moparts also 

[charger_fan_4ever]

Hmm

I hope the dressings in the stealth heads are not like the sbf chinese heads. The chinese sbf heads are know for dropping valves. Most guys buy them bare and have them assembled with good parts cause they are so bad.

[firefighter3931]

I would be making contact with 440 Source for some type of financial restitution. 

That is not a radical cam profile....shouldn't have happened, inmo.

Another member here (username ; Mally69) had the same thing happen to his Stealth heads earlier in the year. 



Ron

[defiance]

True, but in his case, a rocker broke and gouged the keeper, didn't it?  of course, the rocker was also 440source, so not making excuses, just sayin' I can still hope this particular keeper failer is a fluke...

[Mfr426]

As a recent stroker builder (including those heads), I find this a bit disconcerting at best.

Please keep us updated on how this issue is handled. Best of luck for a speedy recovery.

Sorry you had to go through this.

Mike R in Reading PA
69 Charger RT/SE 505 Clone

[Rob R]

Maybe I've just been doing this type of stuff longer than most but a pair of new alum cyl heads for $800 would give me concerns with the quality of parts ...I don't even use the Indy valves in Ez heads.Seen that carnage way too many times...
I'd be surprised if 440'sRus did anything...there never is any type of warranty on HIPO parts...that's why I'm soooo careful

[frederick]

I'm glad I upgraded to 10degree locks.
There doesn't seem to be that much damage luckily, not even the piston was holed, and I don't see debris in the other cylinders.

Frederick

[dstryr]

I have often read that guys have upgraded immediately to 10* locks & retainers.
 
Here's one example:  http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4237025&an=&page=0&vc=1
 
And the part # 613-16: http://www.compcams.com/technical/Catalogs/106-07/310-311.pdf

[Challenger340]

That really sucks !

Just curious, did the engine see some high rpm's ?

[Musicman]

Well, that is the first that I have heard of one breaking apart for no apparent reason. Mally69 had one assembly come apart (not break apart), but that was due to an issue with his rocker assembly, and would have caused any keeper set to fail regardless. Having examined my own Stealth heads when I purchased them, I did find a few assembly flaws with the locks & keepers "AS SHIPPED", along with an acceptable but not so great valve job. Of course as I have said many times in the past and will state here again... When you purchase a set of fully assembled heads ( regardless of manufacture), you are buying a set of heads and a set of generally acceptable parts to go with them. You are not paying for or receiving radical high performance components, a 3 angle valve job, or a first rate assembled package, etc... In most cases you can simply bolt them down after a quick inspection and get away with it, assuming everything looked good, but I wouldn't reccomend it. It's always better to fully disassemble them and check them out 100%. Always do a good valve job, and replace any component that you feel will not be up to the designed task. In my case, I am having a first rate valve job done, and I will be replacing the stock 7 degree locks and keepers with a 10 degree set. Not that there is anything wrong with the keepers that came with them, I'm just replacing them because it is a cheap upgrade that goes a long way toward greater piece of mind in the end.

Also bear in mind that this sort of thing "can and does" happen from time to time with "all manufactures".

[AKcharger]

I've had good luck with 'em so far (300 miles). I did have my machine shop look 'em over before I installed them...Hope that doersn't happen to me.

[RD]

update.... dont think 4406pac has had a chance to post this... but the stealth heads cannot be ran with stock rockers.  the rockers will ride the retainers (i.e. touch) causing too much pressure/load on the keepers, hence the reason why this keeper went south.  owner is contacting 440source to see what is the next step.

[defiance]

then with mally's problem, this makes the second known instance of rocker interference resulting in a dropped valve on these heads...  apparently we need to be very careful about rockers on them.

[Musicman]

Don't no what to tell you there.... Other guys have been running them with stock rockers for some time, and I should think that they would have notice a problem like that at the time of assembly. I know the keepers on the Stealths have a larger diameter than stock because of the larger springs (1-1/2" keepers verses stock 1-11/32). I looked at mine a while back with stock rockers in place just out of curiosity and the clearances were just slightly under a 1/16" on average, but nothing was touching. 

[Musicman]

then with mally's problem, this makes the second known instance of rocker interference resulting in a dropped valve on these heads...  apparently we need to be very careful about rockers on them.

Mally didn't have a rocker clearance problem, he had a rocker assembly fail.

[defiance]

True.  Still enough that I'm going to make another detailed inspection of my rocker/valve setup tonight

[Musicman]

  Always a good idea

[4406pac]

As you can see from the pic's, the edge of the retainers are shiny, and when setting the rockers on the head you can see were they hit the retainer and springs. As far as 440source take on it, not their problem, that a professional builder would of caught that the pushrod geometry was off. I'm sorry, professional engine builder would probably bought better heads, just an average Joe trying to get a little more horsepower. We put the heads on in car, their ad says you can use stock rockers, so didn't think they would interfere and could not see in the car that they were hitting the retainers. I guess the bottom line is if you are running stealth heads and put stock rockers on check your retainers or the springs to make sure they clear. Don't want this to happen to any of my Mopar brothers! Hard and expensive lesson, should have looked at it a little closer, anyone have a single stealth head for sale???

[AKcharger]

I'm running all stock rockers, no dropped valves yet...450 miles

[RD]

I'm running all stock rockers, no dropped valves yet...450 miles

you drive yours like a grandpa though LOL.. (oh i dont really know, just teasing you).

[AKcharger]

Hey 6 Pack can you take some more phots of EXACTLY where they were hitting? The pictures you posted it looks like the rocker and valve were lining up, I don't see where the mismatch was. I'm pulling my covers tonight to check and want to know what I should look for. My rockers line up perfectly with the valve stem but your pictures look like they did too...I must be missing somthing.

Thanks in advance

you drive yours like a grandpa though LOL.. (oh i dont really know, just teasing you).

My wife tells me that all the time 

[Musicman]

As you can see from the pic's, the edge of the retainers are shiny, and when setting the rockers on the head you can see were they hit the retainer and springs. As far as 440source take on it, not their problem, that a professional builder would of caught that the pushrod geometry was off. I'm sorry, professional engine builder would probably bought better heads, just an average Joe trying to get a little more horsepower. We put the heads on in car, their ad says you can use stock rockers, so didn't think they would interfere and could not see in the car that they were hitting the retainers. I guess the bottom line is if you are running stealth heads and put stock rockers on check your retainers or the springs to make sure they clear. Don't want this to happen to any of my Mopar brothers! Hard and expensive lesson, should have looked at it a little closer, anyone have a single stealth head for sale???

That really sucks... Of course I wonder now if the difference is in the head castings or the stamped rockers. I know the chambers vary quite a bit from casting to casting but that's a cast item. The rocker assembly points, spring seats and valve alignment etc, are machined, so I wouldn't think that there would be a noticeable variation there. I could see where the rockers may varying quite a bit batch to batch, but you never know, these are economy heads afterall... IE: Quality Control starts when the customer inspects the product at the time of purchase.

[General_01]

Hey AK. From what I see in the pics, it looks like the issue is where the retainer runs under the rocker arm. It looks like it may be close to hitting the rocker arm body where the shaft goes through the rocker. I circled the area in the pic.

[firefighter3931]

Hey AK. From what I see in the pics, it looks like the issue is where the retainer runs under the rocker arm. It looks like it may be close to hitting the rocker arm body where the shaft goes through the rocker. I circled the area in the pic.

Maybe it's just me but the rocker geometry doesn't look right in that pic. 

I'm wondering if the installed height of those valvesprings is too high....it looks that way to me. 




Ron

[RD]

Maybe it's just me but the rocker geometry doesn't look right in that pic.

I'm wondering if the installed height of those valvesprings is too high....it looks that way to me.
Ron

so is that a manufacturer issue then?  they say you can bolt them on and go... but obviously, they should say have them checked out before you bolt them on and go?

[Musicman]

Here are 2 shots comparing the Stealth to a stock 452... taken with a tripod from the same angle, there may be a slight distortion in the geometry due to the fact that the camera was zoomed in a little closer on the Stealth.

[Musicman]

Looking at 6pac's picture it appears that the keeper is not parallel to the valve stem... Looks like it's cocked on the stem... The entire spring looks curved... Assembly issue perhaps, or maybe it's just an optical illusion  Either way, something appears to be off as Ron stated.

[AKcharger]

OK...So it's the radius of the spring that is hitting the inboard part of the rocker. I thought the problem was the  rocker was left or right of the valve spring

[Chatt69chgr]

My engine is at the machinist and I have a set of the Stealth's too.  From the pictures, it sure looks like the diameter of the valvespring is excessive to properly work with the stock rockers (which I plan to use).  So does anyone know if comp cams makes a valvespring that could be used on these heads that is a smaller diameter.  I have bought the Engle K56 cam for my engine.  Also bought the 10 degree locks for insurance.  So the spring pressure would be need to be something that would be correct for that cam and I think a lot of guys use that Engle cam.  For that matter, why can't you use the spring that is on the 452 shown above.  Height?   Wonder what they use on the Eddy heads?  Havn't heard of this issue with them.

[Runner]

the problem looks like there isnt enough valve stem sticking up past the retainer to me.    mabe its the locks, mabe its the retainer or mabe its the valve or mabe the wrong locks for the reatainer.  but i bet in your case you woulda had a problem with most rockers.      i wonder what the installed height on the springs are?


   that head looks repairable to me.

   my understanding is afr heads are nice right out of the box, to bad they dont do mopar heads!     

   im sorry for your problems 

[firefighter3931]

the problem looks like there isnt enough valve stem sticking up past the retainer to me.   

Yep, that's my take on it as well. 

Personally, i would prefer a "sturdier" retainer with a lower installed height for increased rocker clearance.   



Ron

[Chatt69chgr]

Ron-------could you translate that into parts that I could order from somebody like Comp Cams.  I'd rather spend more money now instead of waiting for the supplied parts to fail.  I already bought the 10 degree locks and retainers from Comp Cams that were discussed on earlier threads.  Hopefully, I can still use those.  I am getting the idea that I will need new valves and valve springs.  Sure hate to have to spend this extra money but if that's what it takes, so be it.  I would think that if this is what the solution turns out to be that 440Source would want to step up to the plate and take care of their customers.  After all, they did advertise that these were bolt on right out of the box.  When I read bolt on, I read using stock valvetrain components, ie, stock rockers.  Being a realist, I am not expecting that to happen.  Thanks.

[Runner]

it it were me, and i didnt have the ability to check installed height, spring presure, retainer to spring fit then i would take the heads to a reputable shop and have them look them over and deside what parts was needed, it might save you money in the long run.

[Steve P.]

The valve stem looks bent to me.. This could easily cause the problem we are looking at with the retainer. Also the retainer looks much thicker, maybe all to the top. This can make it all look like the wrong stem hight as well..

I have to wonder if 440 source isn't looking harder at these for the next batch.....

[firefighter3931]

Chatt ;

The Stealth springs are supposed to be very similar to the Eddy RPM valvesprings which would make them fine for your Engle cam. 

Like Runner said have the heads inspected and corrected if need be. The installed height should be 1.88-1.90 and I would like to see 120 lbs of seat pressure and 300 Lbs+ open.

From what i've seen the Stealth heads are hit or miss when it comes to the hardware (retainers/locks)....some are fine, some aren't. 




Ron

[Rolling_Thunder]

when I get mine I'm planning on going with some sort of Comp beehive spring...   shouldnt have any interferrence at that point with the rockers... 

[RD]

when I get mine I'm planning on going with some sort of Comp beehive spring... shouldnt have any interferrence at that point with the rockers...

very good point.. would definitely eliminate the retainer/rocker interference issue.

[AKcharger]

OK pulled the covers and looked over the valves, no obvious interference (although very close) and no marks on the spring retainers. Only thing I noticed is it looked like the spring is exposed on a couple of valves under the retainer (1st photo 1st valvse on rt) is that normal?   you guys see anything else to be concerned about


Oh BTW, that engine runs VERY good 

[firefighter3931]

OK pulled the covers and looked over the valves, no obvious interference (although very close) and no marks on the spring retainers. Only thing I noticed is it looked like the spring is exposed on a couple of valves under the retainer (1st photo 1st valvse on rt) is that normal?   you guys see anything else to be concerned about

I'm not too thrilled about the fit....it looks like the retainer is floating around on the top of the valve spring. 



Ron

[General_01]

update.... dont think 4406pac has had a chance to post this... but the stealth heads cannot be ran with stock rockers.  the rockers will ride the retainers (i.e. touch) causing too much pressure/load on the keepers, hence the reason why this keeper went south.  owner is contacting 440source to see what is the next step.

This is right off of 440 Source's web site:

Clearanced for large diameter valve springs, our Stealth heads use factory type rocker arms and stock diameter shafts, so no special "high-dollar" offset rockers are required. Any rockers that work on a stock Mopar head will work on our heads. This includes roller rockers, or even stock type stamped steel rockers. Heat crossover is blocked off for increased performance. Factory port windows, exhaust and intake manifold locations make sure you can use any "off the shelf" intake manifold and/or exhaust manifold/headers without any fitment hassles or special "spacers" required. Made of lightweight aluminum alloy, one of these heads weighs only 22 pounds bare or 29 pounds complete with valves and springs. 


If they can't be run with stock rockers now, then 440 Source needs to make it right for him and get the word out to anyone who bought these heads

[Runner]

OK pulled the covers and looked over the valves, no obvious interference (although very close) and no marks on the spring retainers. Only thing I noticed is it looked like the spring is exposed on a couple of valves under the retainer (1st photo 1st valvse on rt) is that normal?   you guys see anything else to be concerned about

I'm not too thrilled about the fit....it looks like the retainer is floating around on the top of the valve spring. 



Ron

did those springs and retainers come on the heads?       

[fourspd440]

Bill,
    Look at your #2 exhaust valve.  I'm a little concerned about that spring.  It seems to be sliding out more than the rest. 
Look at EVERY rocker arm to valve retainer clearance as you rotate the engine through a revolution.  Just because one has good clearance doesn't mean they all do.  Check the clearance between the compressed springs at full lift as well.  Also, take a black felt tip marker and color in the top of the valve stem.  Then rotate the engine through a revolution.  You should see a nice clean, even, bare line across the MIDDLE of the valve stem. 
Are you using aftermarket springs that came with your cam or the springs that were on the head.  I don't mind the aluminum castings themselves.  BUT....  Think about all of the stresses put on those keepers, retainers, and valve stems at 6,000 RPM's.  Do you really want Chinese components there? 

ANY TIME you use non-stock components, you should blueprint the assembly.  In my mind, nothing is "bolt-on" and go.

Hemi Stan

[Musicman]

Hi fella's

I've been away for a few days... catching up on a little rest & relaxation up in the White Mountains of NH.

I see the sky is still falling here... what is now, Keepers? OK... Below is a side by side of the trusted Mopar style and one from a Stealth.

First let's talk about the Mopar piece... As you can see in the image, the shoulder that actually keeps the spring centered in place is rounded and rather shallow. Mounted on top of a stock Mopar spring this keeper allows about 3/32" of side to side spring movement, and with the shallow rounded shoulder, a spring could easily slip and ride up under the keeper in a sloppy valve train assembly. Fortunately, normal spring pressures assure that this will not happen, or at least shouldn't.

Now let's look at the Stealth piece... As you can plainly see, the shoulder is not only taller than the stock Mopar (almost twice as tall in fact), but it also has a nice square edge to help detour the spring from slipping and riding up under the keeper. The valve train would have to be really, really, really sloppy to slip a spring under one of these. Mounted on a Stealth spring this keeper had almost no slippage side to side, less than 1/32" anyway.

Say what you like folks... I'll take the Stealth piece any day of the week over the stock Mopar piece...

In Bill's case, the very end of the spring appears to be sticking out a bit, so it may be the spring itself that is or is not at fault. Perhaps the very end of the spring where it was cut and re-curved to sit flat got sprung a little during manufacture. A couple of quick measurements taken in place with a set of calipers would reveal that answer.

[4406pac]

Here is another update, thanks to Musicman's pic of his stealth head with stock rockers I noticed allot of the valve stem, the pic I put in of mine I was at a higher angle so it looked like I had more of the valve tip showing than I actually do. Not every rocker was hitting, just the ones with no valve tip showing, I took a couple pics with a putty knife on top of the tip so you can see how much it sunk down in the retainer. I do believe on initial setup we had the correct pushrod geometry, I still believe the cause of the problem was the cheap retainers and keepers on the stealth heads. With a little RPM say 6000 it's pulling the keepers thru the retainers causing them to hit the rockers. I didn't mean to scare everybody running stock rockers, I just don't want this to happen to anybody else! I would suggest if you are planning to drive your Mopar like it should be, then replace the retainers and keepers. Any other suggestions of the cause are welcome.

[Musicman]

6 Pac... Don't no if you checked them out before assembly or not, but there have been many cases noted in the past where the Lock & Keeper assemblies were not correctly put together at the factory... They were there, but they were not locked on correctly, which causes the stem protrusion to vary valve to valve, and is a potential problem waiting to happen. Just another one of those things that should always be looked at before final assembly.

It has also been stated many times that the standard 7 degree Locks & Keepers are probably good enough for most of the modest applications, but that 10 degree sets should always be used for higher performance applications, especially higher lifts.

[RD]

Only mild build 383, .060 over, 8.5.1 maybe(120-125 cylinder pressure), 509 hyd cam, stock rockers.

clearly this is not a high performance build.  the locks/retainers should be able to handle this without any issue.  there is a quality control issue here and it should be addressed.

i am not saying the stealth heads are turds, they totally arent.  they are awesome heads at a great price, for the mopar guy who cannot afford a lot.   they perform quite well from what i have personally seen and read about from other members.  What i am saying is that if you purchase a product then stuff like this should not occur shortly after installation and usage.  you should NOT have to buy new items and replace the stock items to insure longevity and performance.  Such items should be up to standard initially, with an option by the buyer to purchase better products, but not mandatory.

That being said, though it may be wise to inspect your heads if you know what you are looking at, if a pair of heads that are being brought to market in direct competition with edelbrock, indy, and any other manufacturer; then its quality should be at a level to handle such a mild build as the above.  If not.. then it is time to address the issue, fix it, and insure each customer is aware of the design issue.  Afterall, the automotive companies do this all the time (i.e. recalls). 

I wont fault 440 source for making this right, addressing the issue and developing a logical and fair resolution; but I will fault them for not doing anything about it.  I am biased in the sense that I know the owner of these, so I will not blame him for this happening.  Do you really believe he wanted to ruin his engine?

[Musicman]

Having read all of the stories now concerning locks & keepers on the Stealth heads, I have come to the conclusion that the Locks themselves seem to be the weak link in this chain. Apparently, while one set of heads may have a nice clean sharp set of locks, another set may come through with a set of less than spectacular locks. I think they must just pull these out of an old rusty bucket full of locks at the factory somewhere. I have personally examined all of the components that make up my heads, and it is my opinion that the locks are by far the worst piece. The ones on my heads are not bad... I've seen better of course $$$, but their not bad. Then again I've seen pictures of some that looked almost rusty with what appeared to be smoothed over edges, almost cast looking. So I guess the bottom line is if your going to by these heads fully assembled, then you would be wise to follow the suggestions made by Ron and others like myself. Take them apart, examine everything, get a 1st rate valve job done, and replace the 7 degree locks & keepers with a decent 10 degree set. Don't expect them to be "Bolt On Ready To Go" right out of the box.... Don't expect that from any factory assembled head period.

You could always by them bare bones as well, then you can decide for yourself what to use on them right from the start.

I'm not ready to fault 440source for the few discrepancies that have arisen since these heads were introduced. Problems do and will occur with even the best of products. I've read plenty of horror stories concerning the ever popular Eddy and Indy heads as well, so 440source is by no means alone in this category. I believe that Eddy puts out a better product overall, but they cost quite a bit more as well. The Stealth heads have their place in the food chain. They are a good inexpensive alternative for the guy on a tight budget, but you can't expect miracles out of the box. Your not paying for 1st class, so why would you expect to receive it. As long as you follow the simple rules and practices outlined above you should not have an issue like this in the future. At least you can say that you have done your part to avoid it. But then again, as we said in the old days... Shit Happens 

[SeattleCharger]

I don't know much about engine building here, but my     from talking to machine shop:

   When I was talking to machine shop about getting heads with long block rebuild, he said he would only warranty the engine build if he bought the heads and inspected and made any corrections and fixed any found problems first.   This was in reference to eddy heads back then, last summer?  anyways, he said the last 3 pairs of eddy rpm heads he had built an engine with needed some sort of small fix up on the springs or retainers or something, can't remember.   So, seems that bolt on from either company is at your own risk without an expert or semi expert double checking factory assembly/parts.   

[Musicman]

When I was talking to machine shop about getting heads with long block rebuild, he said he would only warranty the engine build if he bought the heads and inspected and made any corrections and fixed any found problems first.   This was in reference to eddy heads back then, last summer?  anyways, he said the last 3 pairs of eddy rpm heads he had built an engine with needed some sort of small fix up on the springs or retainers or something, can't remember.   So, seems that bolt on from either company is at your own risk without an expert or semi expert double checking factory assembly/parts.   

  Always check them out first, regardless of manufacture.

[AKcharger]

...In Bill's case, the very end of the spring appears to be sticking out a bit, so it may be the spring itself that is or is not at fault. Perhaps the very end of the spring where it was cut and re-curved to sit flat got sprung a little during manufacture. A couple of quick measurements taken in place with a set of calipers would reveal that answer.

Copy, I plan to pop the rockers off tomorrow and double check everything, will keep everyone posted...great info, thanks to all!

[frederick]

Just checked one of my heads.
One one occasion the retainer is hitting the stock stamped rocker, some other ones are very close.

I've got 10degree retainers and locks from compcams.  (613-16 an 748-16)
On assembling them I did notice the installed height increased by aprox. 0.040' so added shims under the springs to compensate.

Frederick

[Chatt69chgr]

I called 440 Source to discuss this issue.  I have a set of the Stealth heads but have not installed them  They say that you have to shim up the rocker arms to get appropriate clearance between the rocker and the valve retainer.  They said that these shims are available from Mancini or others.  They don't sell studs to use for attachement of the rocker arms.  I havn't called ARP to see if they have them.  Also have not called Edelbrock about whether they have the studs and shims.  440 Source said that as long as you only tightened to 25 ft pounds that bolts will work fine and won't strip out the aluminum (when attaching rocker arms).  I think I would still like to find studs.  I have not had time to try to identify the recommended shims yet.  But if this solution works then that would be good as you wouldn't have to change out the springs.  Note that I am going to be running a Engle K56 cam.  They said it is a good idea to go to the 10 degree locks and retainers.  I bought these from Comp Cams already.  They did say that the clearance between the retainer and the rocker should be at least 50 or 60 thousands.  Would be interested in what others think about these recommended solutions.  I plan on having my heads torn down and checked for valve sealing, valve stem clearance, and rocker to valve retainer clearance when I have the new retainers and locks installed.

[General_01]

It is almost starting to sound like the way to go with these heads is to by them bare and get the right parts and have a builder put them together for you.

[Musicman]

They say that you can shim up the rocker arms to get appropriate clearance between the rocker and the valve retainer.  They said that these shims are available from Mancini or others.

I personally don't like the idea of putting shims under the arms to gain clearance. Those shims were designed for guys that had the heads shaved and needed to compensate for the loss. You could use shims, but now you will have to compensate for the loss at the other end.
In a case like this, I would look for a new set of retainers as Ron suggested... ones that would grab the locks a little sooner. Grabbing the locks earlier (lower on the stem) would give you the clearance required without changing the geometry. Unfortunately there is no way to tell which ones will do the job without trying them first. Spec's like that aren't given in most cases... product experience is the key there. To bad they don't make conical tapered shims that you could just drop in the hole between the lock & retainer. Forget it, that would be to easy...

They said it is a good idea to go to the 10 degree locks and retainers.

Agreed... most of us qualify for this upgrade anyway.

They did say that the clearance between the retainer and the rocker should be at least 50 or 60 thousands.

That is pretty much what I have now... I am switching over to 10 degree locks & keepers however, so we will have to see what happens there. Hopefully I will find a set that grabs the locks sooner than later.

[Chatt69chgr]

I just got off the phone with Edelbrock and was asking them about their performer rpm heads for 440 application.  They said they recommend a adjustable rocker assembly.  They don't recommend using their head with the stock stamped rockers.  They don't recommend shims.  They don't sell any shim kits or shims.  They supply two studs for the shallow rocker mtg holes.  You are to use bolts on the other three.  I'am wondering if the crane adjustable rockers and the appropriate push rods along with the 10 degree locks and retainers would effectively solve the problem.  I realize that the adjustable's are not cheap.  I think Summit sells the Crane set for $324.  Doesn't include the push rods either.  I havn't looked to see what Harland Sharp, Comp Cams, or Hughes has yet.  So we may be barking up a tree trying to use stock stamped steel rockers since, apparently, the Stealth heads are more or less clones of the Edelbrocks.

[firefighter3931]

Stock stamped rockers work fine with the edelbrock heads....of course those come set up properly while the "source" heads are hit or miss. I've said this several times on here ; upgrade the locks and retainers and you won't have any issues. There are 2 types of locks.....stamped and machined. The stamped stuff is low grade and guess what the stealth heads come with ? Wanna guess what you get with the E-heads ? 


Look guys, these heads are very reasonably priced and there is some compromises made in the hardware.....that much is evident.    If you really want to run these heads have them inspected and corrected.....it's that simple.

I personally don't like the idea of putting shims under the arms to gain clearance. Those shims were designed for guys that had the heads shaved and needed to compensate for the loss. You could use shims, but now you will have to compensate for the loss at the other end.
In a case like this, I would look for a new set of retainers as Ron suggested... ones that would grab the locks a little sooner. Grabbing the locks earlier (lower on the stem) would give you the clearance required without changing the geometry. Unfortunately there is no way to tell which ones will do the job without trying them first. Spec's like that aren't given in most cases... product experience is the key there. To bad they don't make conical tapered shims that you could just drop in the hole between the lock & retainer. Forget it, that would be to easy...

I have to agree with Mike here....shimming the rocker shafts is a mickey mouse solution. You will need longer pushrods most likely and the rocker sweep across the valvetip will be compromised. Bandaiding one problem creates larger headaches. Bottom line, fix it right and sleep better at night. 



Ron

[RD]

needless to say, i believe that after hearing from others, 440source needs to change their statement regarding the usage of stamped rockers with their heads.  obviously, stock stamped rockers cannot be the recommended or viable product to use with the heads due to the clearance issues.

i still dont think the purchaser of the heads should HAVE to tear them apart and put them back together with new locks.  440source should do this, even if costs a little more (one less thing to worry about purchasing).

i dont go to a store (any store) and buy an appliance just to take it to a repair man to see if everything is okay inside.  I buy the product based upon the businesses description and warranty/guarantee and go from there.  440source needs to back up what they claim and make it right. i do disagree with ron though on one aspect... I do not believe that if I want these heads to run i should have to pay to have them corrected.  They SHOULD be corrected prior to purchase.  It is not my responsibility, it is the companies.  Afterall, if the belt on your dryer was substandard, would you go buy a new belt and replace it, or would you go back to sears and have them fix it? (yes, i believe this to be apples to apples).

i am not arguing the fact that you all are stating:

1. new locks should be installed
2. shims are not the answer

[Musicman]

I disagree with Ron though on one aspect... I do not believe that if I want these heads to run I should have to pay to have them corrected.  They SHOULD be corrected prior to purchase. 

I understand your feelings on the matter, but the facts still remain... Manufactures are selling you a set of heads complete with their components, at a price which is less than if you purchased the items separately. However, you are not paying for the proper machine work that goes into correctly fitting these components to the heads. Yes, it sucks, but it is a fact of life common to ALL  manufactures of engine heads. I do believe manufactures could do a little better with their advertising practices however. For instance 440 source says the "Heads are assembled and ready to bolt on the engine"... true enough, but certainly not the whole truth to be sure. Don't get me wrong, some manufactures make no claims at all about fully assembled heads other than the fact that they come fully assembled. Missleading perhaps, but a little more truthful...
It's an area that needs work to be sure... it's not just engine heads either you know, look around... There's misleading information everywhere in the aftermarket automotive performance industry.

[Musicman]

Chatt69chgr... Thanks for taking the extra steps, making some phone calls and posting your findings   I'm sure many folks here appreciate your efforts. Good information, straight from the horses mouth...

[Ghoste]

It's an area that needs work to be sure... it's not just engine heads either you know, look around... There's misleading information everywhere in the aftermarket automotive performance industry.

It'd also be fair to say that sometimes you get what you pay for too.

[frederick]

Noticed another thing:
The rockertip is right on the edge of the valvestem when the valve is closed. Not good geometry.
So I will need the rockershaft shims to to correct this.

Frederick

[Chatt69chgr]

I've about decided to go with the Crane ductile iron adjustable rockers, P/N 64770-16.   They are OK for valve spring dia up to 1.565.  They want you to use their rocker shaft too.  It's about $100.  I called them and they said to put the head on the block and use a checking pushrod to get the proper length then call them and they can supply whatever that length turns out to be.  The pushrods are ball/cup and are 3/8 inch dia.  The rockers are made to fit standard offset, ie, stock.  I tried to call 440 Source to make absolutely sure that these will be OK---that is, that the Stealths are std offset--- and I will do that monday but I think they are.  The other rockers I looked at were the Comp Cams P/N 1321-16.  They are investment cast steel and are a little higher tech as they use pin bearings on the rocker shaft and have a roller tip plus are adjustable.  They would probably work fine.  They are for max valve spring dia of 1.54.  They cost $500 for the rockers, shaft, and hold down bolts/fittings.  That was from Summit.  Somebody else may sell them cheaper.  But I kind of like the Crane pieces.  They should yield more spacing between the valve spring keeper and the underside of the rocker and from what I have read are just about indestructable.  If I was building a higher rpm engine, the Comp Cams pieces might be a better choice.  My machinist says that he put a set of the Comp Cams rockers on a 440 a year ago and they worked out real nice.
I will note that when I read frederick's post below about "the rockertip is right on the edge of the valvestem when the valve is closed" has given me a bit of concern.  I wonder if the rockertip of the Crane ductile iron rockers will be like that?  Has anyone used the Crane ductile iron rockers and if so can they report on their experience.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I will be changing out the locks and keepers for new 10 degee pieces from Comp Cams.  From everything I have read, I think the springs that were supplied on the Stealth heads should be OK.  May not have mentioned before but bought lifters from comp cams and cam is a Engle K56.
When I get the heads worked over I will report back as to whether the valves needed any seat work or not as well as if the guides had proper clearance.

[AKcharger]

Well I popped off my rockers, marked the valve tips with magic marker, put the rockers back on and turned it over. After pulling the rockers again they were hitting square, except for 2, but even those didn't cause me any concern. I put everything together again and drive it 250 mile to a show, so I'm comfortable with my set up.

You guys have scared me into changing out my valve keepers this winter however.

[Steve P.]

WHY WAIT?? 

[Chatt69chgr]

I'am having second thoughts about using the Crane ductile iron rockers.  They don't have any bushings.  So you will be running cast iron on steel which can result in galling.  You can have them bushed at rocker arm specialists for $125 for a set.  That would make these a total of $425.  Shaft is extra.  Same with comp cams adjustable lifter which are made out of stainless steel.  Those cost $500 for set plus shaft is included here--but they can only handle valve spring dia of 1.540 which is not good enough as the Stealths are valve spring dia of 1.550.  I looked on the Hughes Engines website and they have a roller rocker that is asjustable.  It's their model 1510S-16 for $460.  There are several good things about this one.  They make their own shafts which are the same dia as stock but thicker walls than stock or the other vendors.  They also do what they call a bananna cut to the oil holes ensuring a good oil supply for the rockers.  And they supply shims to go between the rockers also helping with the rocker oiling.  They don't use bearings as they say the aluminum doesn't require one.  Say that if they put a bronze bearing in that it would reduce the strength on the valve side where you are narrow to allow larger valve spring size.  I found out that they can handle up to 1.625 valve spring dia.  They said that these are used all day long on Edelbrock Performer RPM heads which are more or less identical to the Stealths particularly in valve spring size and installed height (and virtually everything else).  And their rockers are for std offset which is what the Edelbrock Performer RPM is.  The adjuster has a ball end so you will be using a ball/cup pushrod--3/8 inch.  Ball and cup are 5/16 dia.  On request, they will send you a P/N 8100 checker lifter (for hydraulic applications) and a P/N 8214 checking pushrod.  You pay a total $100 deposit on these and get your money back when you send them back in.  They will make the pushrods to your measured length.  Cost about $165.  They also have a complete hold down set for these which costs $85 and it uses studs and twelve point nuts.  Also, the hold downs are machined instead of stamped.  I found that Mancini Racing sells Hughes stuff for a few % discount---not much though.  They get $445 for the rocker/shaft set and $75 for the stud hold down kit.  I assume they can supply the checking pushrod and checking lifter.  Don't know yet.  I will also be substituting the new comp cams 10 degree locks and retainers as well as their valve guide seals.  Will keep the Stealth springs.  Using the Engle K56 HYD I will have a total valve action (1.5:1 rockers) of .504 inches.  The Stealth heads say they are OK for up to .600 lift.  Comments appreciated.

There is one other way that I thought of that might allow one to use the stamped steel rockers.  That would be to use a beehive spring.  I have no idea if one is available.  I am wondering even if one was, since the Stealth heads are machined for the steel cup that the current spring sits in, that if you put a spring in with a smaller dia. on the foot, that the cup it sat in would dance around and that wouldn't be good.  I was going to ask Comp Cams about such a spring and it's application but have never been able to get through to their tech persons.  But even if you did figure the spring part out, you would still be using the stamped steel rockers and I think Ron pointed out that these rarely ever are 1.5:1 rocker ratio.  They are less and vary all over the place.  At least with good (expensive) rockers, you will be getting the true 1.5:1.  Now whether this makes any difference in how much power the engine makes I have no idea.  I have run across some posts where guys had 1.5:1 rockers and put in 1.6:1 rockers and found that their ET at the track was about the same.  Might have improved a few hundredths of a second.  So this factor may not be all that important.  I don't have the experience to say.   

[Runner]

I'am having second thoughts about using the Crane ductile iron rockers.  They don't have any bushings.  So you will be running cast iron on steel which can result in galling.  You can have them bushed at rocker arm specialists for $125 for a set.  That would make these a total of $425.  Shaft is extra.  Same with comp cams adjustable lifter which are made out of stainless steel.  Those cost $500 for set plus shaft is included here--but they can only handle valve spring dia of 1.540 which is not good enough as the Stealths are valve spring dia of 1.550.  I looked on the Hughes Engines website and they have a roller rocker that is asjustable.  It's their model 1510S-16 for $460.  There are several good things about this one.  They make their own shafts which are the same dia as stock but thicker walls than stock or the other vendors.  They also do what they call a bananna cut to the oil holes ensuring a good oil supply for the rockers.  And they supply shims to go between the rockers also helping with the rocker oiling.  They don't use bearings as they say the aluminum doesn't require one.  Say that if they put a bronze bearing in that it would reduce the strength on the valve side where you are narrow to allow larger valve spring size.  I found out that they can handle up to 1.625 valve spring dia.  They said that these are used all day long on Edelbrock Performer RPM heads which are more or less identical to the Stealths particularly in valve spring size and installed height (and virtually everything else).  And their rockers are for std offset which is what the Edelbrock Performer RPM is.  The adjuster has a ball end so you will be using a ball/cup pushrod--3/8 inch.  Ball and cup are 5/16 dia.  On request, they will send you a P/N 8100 checker lifter (for hydraulic applications) and a P/N 8214 checking pushrod.  You pay a total $100 deposit on these and get your money back when you send them back in.  They will make the pushrods to your measured length.  Cost about $165.  They also have a complete hold down set for these which costs $85 and it uses studs and twelve point nuts.  Also, the hold downs are machined instead of stamped.  I found that Mancini Racing sells Hughes stuff for a few % discount---not much though.  They get $445 for the rocker/shaft set and $75 for the stud hold down kit.  I assume they can supply the checking pushrod and checking lifter.  Don't know yet.  I will also be substituting the new comp cams 10 degree locks and retainers as well as their valve guide seals.  Will keep the Stealth springs.  Using the Engle K56 HYD I will have a total valve action (1.5:1 rockers) of .504 inches.  The Stealth heads say they are OK for up to .600 lift.  Comments appreciated.

There is one other way that I thought of that might allow one to use the stamped steel rockers.  That would be to use a beehive spring.  I have no idea if one is available.  I am wondering even if one was, since the Stealth heads are machined for the steel cup that the current spring sits in, that if you put a spring in with a smaller dia. on the foot, that the cup it sat in would dance around and that wouldn't be good.  I was going to ask Comp Cams about such a spring and it's application but have never been able to get through to their tech persons.  But even if you did figure the spring part out, you would still be using the stamped steel rockers and I think Ron pointed out that these rarely ever are 1.5:1 rocker ratio.  They are less and vary all over the place.  At least with good (expensive) rockers, you will be getting the true 1.5:1.  Now whether this makes any difference in how much power the engine makes I have no idea.  I have run across some posts where guys had 1.5:1 rockers and put in 1.6:1 rockers and found that their ET at the track was about the same.  Might have improved a few hundredths of a second.  So this factor may not be all that important.  I don't have the experience to say.   

    un bushed iron rockers on steal shafts are just fine. mopar sent lots of cars out the door stock this way. crane and isky iron rockers have been used successfully for years on mopars and fe fords.   however, use what ever rocker you feel best about.    if i was in your shoes id get my heads set up to accept the rockers that i wanted to use.

[firefighter3931]

    un bushed iron rockers on steal shafts are just fine. mopar sent lots of cars out the door stock this way. crane and isky iron rockers have been used successfully for years on mopars and fe fords.   however, use what ever rocker you feel best about.    if i was in your shoes id get my heads set up to accept the rockers that i wanted to use.

Good solid advice ! 

These heads should be able to run a stock stamped steel rocker. If the valve spring and retainer diameters are too large just swap out something better. This will be much cheaper in the long run. The Comp #911 valvespring works fine with the correct installed height on a stock head with the matching retainer so there's no reason it won't work on the Stealth heads. Throwing several hundred dollars into an adjustable valvetrain to "fix" an incorrect hardware issue seems like the wrong way to go.

Mike (MFR426) is running stock rockers/shafts with his stealth headed 505 stroker and these issues were not present upon inspection at Barton's shop. Obviously all Stealth heads are not equal and it seems like there's a mish/mash of parts bolted onto these wherever they're being assembled.



Ron

[Musicman]

Obviously all Stealth heads are not equal and it seems like there's a mish/mash of parts bolted onto these wherever they're being assembled.

It's like I done told ya... they just pick parts out of an old rusty bucket at the factory 

[Mfr426]

   

Mike (MFR426) is running stock rockers/shafts with his stealth headed 505 stroker and these issues were not present upon inspection at Barton's shop. Obviously all Stealth heads are not equal and it seems like there's a mish/mash of parts bolted onto these wherever they're being assembled.


Ron

Yep...so far so good with my "out of the box" Stealth heads and new Mopar stock stamped rockers. We did pull the valve covers after some pulls on the dyno too at Bartons. All valves and components appeared to be in good shape. 

[jerry]

i don't know what the big deal is. i mean replacing engine or half of it because of really bad parts [heads] that 6 months ago were the best thing to come down the pike because they were so cheap.well $3000.00 later to replace blocks or parts ,labor. pretty expensive set of heads. i am just repeating what i read above.

[RD]

jerry... did your heads fail also in the same fashion?

[jerry]

no,i have MP made by edelbrock.no problems out of the box.

[Mfr426]

So, looking back now how many folks who purchased Stealth heads have actually had failures causing damage to their engines???

? 

[Musicman]

Only one that I've heard of so far, and who was at fault, who did the inspection? How many people have been running them without issues. How many people have had these same issues with Eddy or Indy heads, is there really a need to start counting... shit happens. If there is a need for anything at all, it is a need for people to stop expecting miracles in a box, and to start inspecting the products they purchase prior to assembly. Buying something like a set of "fully assembled" engine heads and installing them on your vehicle without a proper inspection is just asking for failure, I don't care who made them. I'm not boosting 440source here, just stating the facts. As far as I'm concerned the Stealth heads are at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to aftermarket heads, but they are still a very good product for the guy on a budget...  as long as you remember that there are no free lunches here, especially not in this price range, you still have to do the work.

[RD]

i disagree w/musicman (imagine that ).  I expect a product to do exactly what it is says it should do without having to tear it apart and make a vain attempt at trying to find an issue when there might not be one to be seen with a visual inspection.

if it has become the status quo to buy automotive products, receive them, tear them down and inspect them, and then and only then determine if you should use them... then the quality of the products we are buying are crap and should not be on the market.... let alone us buy them to continue the perpetuating cycle.

i said it before... you dont tear down your dryer after buying it from sears to make sure it was put together right do you?  nope.. and you should not have to here also.  any head purchased from an aftermarket company that is to be put on and engine making less than 500 hp should not have issues out the box.  this forum is just a microcosm of the mopar faithful.  I bet there are more issues out there than what we know of.

[my73charger]

I guess I lucked out and received a good set.  I have had good luck with my Stealth heads so far and I am not easy on my car.  In fact, I was at BIR Muscle Car Shootout during Labor Day weekend and I did 6 passes shifting at 6000+ RPMs each time. No failures so far.  I beat on it on the street too..   I think I will pull the covers and take a peak though.  You guys are giving me an ulcer.  I will probably drive like a grampa until the off season.  I was thinking about having a builder do some massaging on them this winter.  I need more HP. 

[tatrick2me]

Look real close, even if the rocker cleared there still would be a problem. The stock rocker is to short for this head. The side load it puts on the valkve is going to break. The rocker arm, The valve stem or the keepers.