hemigeno's Daytona restoration - a few more tweaks... again!

[nascarxx29]

Vance Cummings did Billy Cards and Chris Sauers 69 daytonas.They turn out nice work.Hemi Geno car is in good hands. I believe Vance resto shop was in Ferrysburg back when he had Billy cards car.Cummins Restoration Grand Haven,From saving Billy Cards daytona ebay link states

I chose Vance Cummins of Grand Haven, Michigan to lead the effort because of his specific Chrysler knowledge, craftsmanship and an incredible customer base including the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, other high profile Chrysler executives and collectors alike. Vance knew that this Daytona, because of its history and unique credentials, was something very special indeed."

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Dodge-Charger-Daytona-Day-One-Daytona_W0QQitemZ280049379354QQihZ018QQcategoryZ6199QQcmdZViewItem

[41husk]

Geno, I am excited for you and I have only seen the car once, but I am already looking foreward to deeing it finished.

[Charger_Fan]

I don't have time at the moment, but I'll post the story of the car sometime.  Some of you guys are probably sick of those details, but maybe others haven't seen it since all that info was posted on the old D-C.com board.

When you have the time, I'd like to read it. 
Looks like it had a dash & engine fire prior to 1980, I'm glad more of the car wasn't harmed.

Congrats on beginning your resto, that's gotta feel pretty great!

[69_500]

The car is in good hands now Gene. Not that it wasn't when it was at your place, but it will definately get the royal treatment now.

So what is the timetable, 2 years?

[wingedone]

Good luck, hope all goes well Geno   

I am not that far from there.  If you need me to go check on it for you (take it for a spin or something) please don't hesitate to ask.   

[mustanghater]

sweet you should do it up like ti would have looked when new with big tires on it and air shocks in the back.

[hemigeno]

Well, I finally dug around and found the old emails that I had written up before which recalls the conversations I have had with the 1st and 2nd owners of my car.  Most of this was posted on the old D-C.com board, so it might be old news for some.  PocketThunder and Charger Fan had asked what the story on my car was, so for PT, C/F and those of you who care to read long, sordid tales, here ya go...

Hey Dave,

You might find this hard to believe, but last night I spoke with the original owner of the Red Daytona!!!

It took me almost a year to locate this guy, mostly because the State of Missouri doesn't get in a hurry to do things, especially records search requests! 

The first search request we turned in came back empty, it was done under the car's CORRECT vin - xx29...  So, we decided to send in a request under the INCORRECT vin just to be safe (you might remember that the Iowa title to the car still showed xs29, like the surrendered Missouri title did).  The second and third requests were never returned by the State, but the fourth one was sent to me yesterday...  Sure enough, it had the name of the guy who titled the car brand new in March of 1970!

Since I know that the car was sent out to the dealer from Detroit in late August 1969, we can easily figure that the car sat at St. Joseph Dodge for SIX MONTHS before this guy walked in.  His name is Terry C. Alden, and he lived in Cameron, Missouri then, about 35 miles to the east of St. Joe.  He said he was in St. Joe just looking around when he saw the car on the showroom floor, and his immediate response was "That looks COOL!!!  - I GOTTA buy that car!!!"  So he did (by trading in his '68 SuperBee), and drove it for 20k miles or so.  He told me that he took care of the car, and that it was never hit while he had it.  Some of the stories he told me of drag racing it locally, several 140mph interstate runs (my guess is that the motor would have been turning between 6,700 and 7,000 rpms to do that), and the fact that he had to stop letting his brother borrow the car because of what the neighbors told him the brother DID with the car, all make me believe that the drivetrain did not have an easy life.  Terry also told me that he kept breaking the alternator bracket bolt off at the block when he would do a hard launch...  DEFINITELY a hard life for that motor!

It comes as no surprise then that the car started using oil.  By then, Terry and his wife had moved to K.C., MO, and he started going to a local Dodge dealer to get the oil problem fixed.  They gave him all sorts of stories as to what it was, but they never got it fixed.  Terry told me the dealer did replace the piston rings in the car once, but that it was still using oil.  He said the dealer had resorted to doing "Oil Consumption Tests" every time he would come into the dealership to complain.  That amounted to topping the car off with oil, and sending him back out on the road for a few weeks to see how much oil it would use over a given period of time/miles.  Terry said all that amounted to was an attempt by the dealership to have him rack up enough miles to run the car out of warranty!

He finally got so fed up with the car that he went back to his hometown dealership in Cameron, MO where an old friend of the family worked (a former State Trooper), who he felt would treat him right on a trade-in.  He traded the car in as partial payment on a 1972 'Cuda in October of '72.  The second owner (William "Gerry" Meade) bought it from that Cameron Dealership and titled it on November 27, 1972.

As far as recollections of the car, Terry remembered it pretty well - orange/red, black stripe, black interior, etc....  He said he had thought of the car quite a bit over the years, and especially when he recently read an article about a Superbird being sold for $70,000.  I told him that was an average price for a 'Bird, and that 6-pack's and Hemi's went for much more than that!  He sure regrets selling it (as do most guys who bought something like that new and later sold it), but he was fed up with the oil problem enough that he just wanted rid of it at the time. 

He promised me that he would look around and see if he had any paperwork, pictures, etc.  He thought he bought the car for "a little over $3,000", although my research shows that the car should have stickered out at around $4,390.40 (before shipping/destination & any dealer prep charges).  Perhaps because the car had sat for 6 months they were willing to slash the price... who knows...  I told him about the second owner finding the car on the lot with a $2,600 price tag, and him being able to buy it for $1,700...  Terry just sighed...  I also told him that Gerry Meade had been able to talk Chrysler into replacing the motor under warranty.  He said he had asked for that a whole lot of times, but got nowhere.  I suppose Gerry just knew which buttons to push, and how high up the food chain he needed to complain to in order to GET a new motor.

[hemigeno]

Here's the second chapter in my car's ownership saga:

Hi Dave,

What I've found out about the second owner so far is:

The car was sold used by a Chrysler/Plymouth dealer in Cameron, Missouri, in 1972.  Cameron is only 35 miles east of St. Joseph, where the car was originally sold from (St. Joseph Dodge).  This dealership was located in the equivalent of an old barn, and wasn't much to look at (it no longer exists, by the way).  The dealer had a sticker price on the car of $2,600.  The interested buyer, William (Gerry) Meade, said he had only $1,700 in the bank and he told the dealer he was interested in the car, but had only that much to pay.  The dealer thought about it, and took the deal.  The car had between 22,000 and 24,000 miles on it from Mr. Meade's recollection.

Gerry took the car home over a weekend (don't know if he drove or pulled it), and drove it to work that first Monday.  On the way to work, he said he noticed that the car's oil pressure dropped to Zero lbs. when the rpm's went over 3,000.  Since the car had such relatively few miles on it, and it was only 3 years old at the time, Gerry took it to Mitch Crawford Chry-Ply in Raytown, MO (near his home in KC, MO).  He said he had a dickens of a time convincing them to fix the motor under warranty, and ended up calling in the local Chrysler factory sales rep to strong-arm Mitch Crawford C-P into performing the warranty work.  Typical of the time (and at some dealerships now), they said "Take it back to the dealership it was purchased from".  Mr. Meade didn't know where it came from, but I found out that by that time St. Joseph Dodge had been shut down by Chrysler anyway for shady business practices.

After finally convincing the dealer to do the work under warranty, they took the motor out, and replaced it with a factory short block.  They re-used the cylinder heads, manifolds, carb, etc from the old motor.  I'm personally not sure if they would have re-used the water pump or not.  The block that I took with the car (unstamped, etc.) has a casting date of 6/29/73, which probably means that the engine block swap was done by the dealer in late summer or the fall of 1973.

The dealership got their revenge on Mr. Meade in two ways.  They first put the clutch disc in backwards, which caused the disc's springs to grind away at the flywheel boltheads.  It also caused the clutch disc to bend in the center due to the lack of proper clearances.  They ran the motor enough to get rid of most of the grinding noises before Gerry came to pick up the car, so he didn't notice this problem at first.  He said that later when the clutch was replaced, they did not replace the flywheel bolts.  He was curious to know if the flywheel was still on the warranty block, since he said it would in all likelihood have had those same ground-down bolts attaching it. 

The second thing the dealer did to get back at him was to deform the spark plug wire retainer clips so that the plug wires would fall off.  Gerry said that there were 4 or 5 plug wires off by the time he got to the end of the block after picking up the car.

When he got the car in serviceable condition, he said he had a grand time driving it.  Top speed he remembered being around 110mph with the 3.54 gears.  He did remember the car handling great once the speed got up close to 100, and he said it handled "at speed" MUCH better than his RoadRunner.  Around town, he preferred the 'Runner, because it had a 383, no long nose to worry about, and he didn't have to worry about getting stared at quite as much.

He had a few problems with cops pulling him over for loud exhaust (he ran Thrush mufflers).  He was once honked off the road by a man on the day the 1974 Daytona 500 was run.  Gerry thought he had something wrong with the car, so he pulled over.  The man had his young son with him, and he wanted to show the son what a car looked like that had run in the Daytona 500 in previous years.

Gerry got into Mopars when he was discharged from the service in 1970 (he didn't say if he served in Vietnam, or elsewhere).  His sister's husband had just purchased a Duster, and it ran real good.  Gerry saw a new Superbird sitting on a dealer's lot in Harrisonville, MO (where the sister & her hubby lived), which is about a half-hour drive to the southeast of Kansas City.  His brother-in-law tried talking him into getting the Superbird, but he ended up buying that 383 RoadRunner instead.  That exposure whetted his appetite for the wing cars, however.

When Gerry got married, the wife needed a car, and started driving the 'Runner.  That left Gerry to drive the Daytona back & forth to work (at Hallmark Cards), which he did daily for 2 years.  After that, they got another car and he drove the car only on weekends.  All told, he said he put about 20,000 miles on it. 

Gerry said that his wife's brother was big into drag-racing at the time, and a friend of that brother-in-law had a Race Hemi motor setting in the corner that Gerry said he would have slapped in the Daytona had it not involved a K-frame conversion (which he didn't have).  At any rate, this B-I-L was keen on Holley carburetors, and insisted that Gerry take the AFB off and replace it with a double pumper.  When they made the swap, they discovered that the stock fuel line was too short to bend and hook up to the Holley (if I'm not mistaken, they take a different thread connector too).  They "solved" the problem by using that clear plastic fuel line that was popular back then.  This was what killed the car.  Gerry decided to drive the car to work one day in 1977, and that fuel line either broke, or came off of the carburetor, spilling fuel all over the top of the hot motor.  It ignited, and burned at the corner of Parvin Road and I-435 (just south of Worlds of Fun, according to Gerry).  The fire department got there quickly, but the car was not driveable after that fire.

At any rate, the car was towed after the fire department got done with it to a service station in Liberty, Missouri.  That's where someone got in the car and stole the Hurst "T" handle shifter knob, that Gerry told me was stock equipment.  Before he told me that, he quizzed me to find out if there was a shifter knob on the shifter.  When I told him no, he explained why there wasn't one.

Gerry needed a place to go with the car, since it wasn't driveable, and he had no place to store it at his house.  His brother-in-law (the same one that talked him into the Holley) let him store the car alongside a barn at his house.  They didn't cover the car up, they just parked it.  As a few years passed, the seals rotted out on the trunk, and the quarter panels and trunkfloor damage came as a result of that exposure.  The crude body work on that QP had come about when Gerry was hit by a guy who veered into Gerry's lane and ran his bumper partially down his car.  The guy that did the damage was supposedly a body man, and said he'd fix it right up, no problem.  He did not replace the quarter, they just did the rough patch job with the pop-riveted metal that you know all about.  The body putty came out when the car sat alongside the barn.

In 1980, Gerry and his wife went through a divorce.  The Brother-In-Law was fixing to be his EX Brother-In-Law, and he needed somewhere to go with the car fast.  That's when he mentioned at work to a couple of people that he had this Daytona for sale.  Bill Beck (with financial help from a fella named Gene Sanders) purchased it, and sold it within about a week to David June.  Bill and Gene bought the car in December of 1980, and I'm assuming you bought the car in 1982 from Mr. June (judging from the title).  The ownership picture goes like this:

Terry Alden                             1969 - 1972
William "Gerry" Meade               1972 - 1980
Bill Beck / Gene Sanders            1980
David June                              1980 -  1982
David H.                                  1982 -  2003
Gene Lewis                              2003

[3--Daytona]

Hemigeno;;;;;;;Well Geno, sounds like you are ready to start depleting your savings account!   Sounds like you are doing the right thing, Good Luck
   I have waited a year to get the black car in the body shop I wanted, about a month ago he told me  " just did'nt have time to do it"  so I took it back to shop that did red car, and wait at least another 6 mon,.  At least, it's only 4 mile away, I can  keep tabs on it. One good thing,, wont have to bring this one back from a total wreck, like the red car was.  "
                                     Keep on keepin on."                                 3--daytona

[hemigeno]

So what is the timetable, 2 years?

Actually, Vance said he could possibly get it done in 8 months     I'm not pushing him to get it done on any particular timetable though.

Good luck, hope all goes well Geno

I am not that far from there. If you need me to go check on it for you (take it for a spin or something) please don't hesitate to ask.

Let me know if you happen to see it flying by your house, wouldya?   

Hemigeno;;;;;;;Well Geno, sounds like you are ready to start depleting your savings account! Sounds like you are doing the right thing, Good Luck
I have waited a year to get the black car in the body shop I wanted, about a month ago he told me " just did'nt have time to do it" so I took it back to shop that did red car, and wait at least another 6 mon,. At least, it's only 4 mile away, I can keep tabs on it. One good thing,, wont have to bring this one back from a total wreck, like the red car was. "
Keep on keepin on." 3--daytona

JIM!!  Good to hear from ya!  You already know full well what it takes to put one of these things back on the road - and yet you still chose to jump in and do the black car.  Guess the red car's resto process didn't scar (or scare) you too badly.  Sorry to hear that you had to find another body shop.  That has to be a hassle to go through, but I hope the rest goes smoother for you. 

[Shakey]

I enjoyed reading those two e-mails you posted Geno!  cool stuff

[PocketThunder]

Cool story Geno.     thanks for posting.



btw: i never heard back from the guy in the Farmington, MO area about the hemi block he thought he had that might be for your R/T.  When i find his name and number i'll send it to you and you could try him again.

[nascarxx29]

Thanks Hemi Geno for the past history on your daytona interesting stuff .I remember Dave K daytona had a interesting life story.Gives people insight to what these cars went through in there day

[69_500]

Glad to see Jim posting on the board again.

Gene, when is your next planned trip up to check the car out? Christmas weekend? JK.

Considering you dropped it off on Thanksgiving I figured that would be a good day to go and check it out.

Next time you plan on heading up that way give me a shout, and maybe I'll swing up that way to check it out with ya, if you don't mind.

[Charger_Fan]

Thanks for posting your car's story Geno, that's pretty neat! It is sorta sad to visualize it's decline, though. At least this next chapter yet to be written, will be a good one.

I'm guessing the David H. guy bought it & stashed it in a garage for 11 years, wanting to restore it, then deciding the reality was that he was never going to get to it?

[XXHEMI]

Geno
Good luck with the resto. After all the money and time spent on these projects there still worth it. Aint they ?

Ed

[UFO]

hemigeno,, A Hurst "T" handle is possible as original.I have the April`69 Super/Stock magazine,in it are two road tests.One a hemi 500 4spd with a flocked(like a velvet covering) T handle.The other a Coronet R/T 440 4spd with a T handle as well.

[69_500]

UFO anyway to scan in those pictures your talking about?

[hemigeno]

Glad you guys have enjoyed "the rest of the story".  I really hope to take the car up to KC after it is done, since I think those previous owners would really like to see the car back together and on the road.  I'll just remember not to let Terry Alden drive it, or let Gerry Meade work on the fuel line... 

Gene, when is your next planned trip up to check the car out? Christmas weekend?

If Vance got it done by Christmas, I'd be tempted to be there Christmas morning to pick it up.  

[pleading voice]
Kids, Daddy needs to go to Michigan, since Santa needs this special sleigh with a wing on it to make his deliveries on time.  No, really!
[/pleading voice]

Next time you plan on heading up that way give me a shout, and maybe I'll swing up that way to check it out with ya, if you don't mind.

Sure, I'll let ya know.  Might be a good time for me to give you those resto tapes too.  Probably will be the week after Christmas, but my schedule is always subject to change.

I'm guessing the David H. guy bought it & stashed it in a garage for 11 years, wanting to restore it, then deciding the reality was that he was never going to get to it?

Dave had the car for 21 years    and yeah he pretty much came to the conclusion that it was going to be hard for him to restore all his cars (plural).  That's a whole 'nother story though.

Good luck with the resto. After all the money and time spent on these projects there still worth it. Aint they ?

Thanks, Ed - and don't even tease about it not being worth it.  They are worth the trouble, right?     right??

hemigeno,, A Hurst "T" handle is possible as original.I have the April`69 Super/Stock magazine,in it are two road tests.One a hemi 500 4spd with a flocked(like a velvet covering) T handle.The other a Coronet R/T 440 4spd with a T handle as well.

I don't doubt that the dealership could have installed the T-handle.  Don't forget that the guy who told me that the T-handle was original-equipment was also the second owner of the car, and he bought it off a Used Car Lot in a one-horse town. 

The original selling dealer did make two modifications to the car that they apparently also made to 3--Daytona's F5 Daytona (which sold from the same dealership).  They painted both our cars' fender scoops and nosecone spoilers black, in an apparent attempt to match the stripe color and make these features stick out a little bit more.  Guess the dealership was about to choke on these two cars which were languishing on their lot for 5-6 months and they were probably trying to spruce them up a bit.  I would not put it past them to have added the T-handle as well.  Of course, the Hamtramck-installed knob was a woodgrain variety, so that's what I'll go back to.

[nascarxx29]

I know Fl and MO are some of the states that have motor vehicle historical services that get you copys of MSO and prior title historys.Where you can trace back a cars owner history.NJ doesnt.Imagine taking the serial numbes for all the MO 440-426 daytonas from the shipment list,And conduct a search

[Lord Warlock]

We'll forgive you for farming out the full restoration.  Some cars deserve such an involved process, and a daytona is one of those cars.  Probably more so than almost any other car of that era.  Glad to see you could track the car back to the original owners.  I wish I had saved my money from my last dd car which i rebuilt at 100k miles and spent more than a decent restoration would have cost me on my own charger rtse. 

These winged cars were very slow movers in the early 70s.  I found a brand new 70 superbird on a chrysler lot in 1974, it had been a showroom model on the display floor, but they pulled it out and were ready to discount it to move it off.  It was priced at 3000.00 with less than 300 miles on it, and a 440 six pack and a 4spd.  My dad wasn't going to trust his 15 year old son with one at that age though.   

[UFO]

Here ya go.

[UFO]

Heres the coronet R/T

[tan top]

good story  (hemigeno )   , it made for some good reading     , history on our cars like that from previous owners , i find  fascinating / intresting      ....    good stuff ...    thanks for posting the storys       

[Charger_Fan]

I'm guessing the David H. guy bought it & stashed it in a garage for 11 years, wanting to restore it, then deciding the reality was that he was never going to get to it?

Dave had the car for 21 years   

DOH! Ok, so I can't add on a Monday.