Edelbrock #60189 heads

[christianlarsen]

I have finally decided to go for alu heads instead of the old iron, since they r causing way to much problems...

I have been suggested Edelbrock #60189 and would like to get your opinion on that ? Both good and bad!

Im in doubt if I should choose 84 or 88 chambers. I want to run 95 octane unleaded but I also want power ?
Can anybody outline the different chambersize in a simple way and how big it is/feels ?

thnx
Christian

[Chatt69chgr]

I believe you will find that the 88cc head is an open chambered design where the 84cc is closed chambered.  Edelbrock says that the 88cc head is designed for use with dome pistons.  It sounds like you are building a racing engine since 95 octane is not available at the pump.  If you are not building a racing engine and are building a spirited street engine, then I think you would be better off with the 84 cc head and flat top pistons with the intention of achieving quench and, thereby, reducing detonation while making the most power.  Before folks can really help you, you need to specify precisely what your end purpose is as far as the engine build is concerned.
What problems are the iron heads causing?

[frederick]

Careful  Chatt69chgr , I think he means 95RON which equates to 91PON, (PON is used in the states)

Christian could you give some more information, what engine size?
-383, 440, bored/stroked?
-flattop pistons, valve reliefs?
-piston to deck height?
-gasket thickness?
This so we can calculate the compression.

Frederick

[christianlarsen]

Hi

Correct I mean 95RON which equates to 91PON (didnt think of that "minor" detail!...newbees u know )

Long story made short: I bought a charger w/ a 440 that broke down in 2 weeks (2yrs ago).
I then got this stroker kit from ohiocrank :

Chrysler 440/511
OC 4340 4.250 stroke crank
OC H 6700 Rods
SRP Forged flat-top pistons
Race Rings and Bearings
Internally Balanced

Actual number for the kit (The note that came along with the kit...hope im writing it down correctly):
Piston:    660g
Piston pin:    150g
Piston rings    58g
Pin locks    5g
Total rod:    244/562g
Insert:    49g
Rotary:    1230g
Reciprocating:    1117 / 50 %factor
BOB weight:    2347g


I also purchased:

- Camshaft: Mopar Performance P4120235 with these springs: Mopar Performance P3690933
- hooker comp 3"
- 850 speed demon
- Edelbrock 440 performer intake
- fuel and oil pump (hi perf/vol)
- flowmaster cross
- Gasket Fel-Pro Performance Z1105 (FPP-1105) (says: Compressed Thickness (in): 0.051 in.)

With the above i then used the old iron heads (which i dont know the history about except they have been planned ones in conjunction with the 03 bore i had done to the block and the machineshop that did it told me the heads would use a lot of oil and needed attention) which has resulted in 2 times head-gasket failure and several times where the sparkplugs literally pop out. Its freaking me out since i know way too little about building engines so your advice is really appreciated!

If i left out important details be sure to let me know

Thnx
Christian

[Chatt69chgr]

I'am going to step back and let some of the guys on here that really know their engines advise you.  You sound like you have a pretty challenging project and way above my limited knowledge.

[firefighter3931]

It sounds like your iron heads need some attention. Excessive oil consumption usually indicates worn valve guides and bad valve seals. Most of those stroker kits use flattop pistons so a closed chamber head is what you want to use.

You stated that your headers are hooker 3in....is that correct ? Hooker headers don't fit well with angled plug heads but there are other options in aftermarket aluminum head castings that will work with those headers.

We need a piston to deck measurement to determine how much compression this engine will make wit the various head options.   



Ron

[christianlarsen]

Ohiocrank tell me I should have a piston to deck measurement of 1/10000 in.

Here are the exact specs on the headers: Hooker Headers 5101-1HKR
  Primary Tube Diameter (in): 1 7/8 in.
  Collector Attachment: 3-bolt flange
  Collector Diameter: 3.000 in.


Thnx (again )
Christian

[firefighter3931]

Ohiocrank tell me I should have a piston to deck measurement of 1/10000 in.

Here are the exact specs on the headers: Hooker Headers 5101-1HKR
  Primary Tube Diameter (in): 1 7/8 in.
  Collector Attachment: 3-bolt flange
  Collector Diameter: 3.000 in.


Thnx (again )
Christian

OK, next question : what does the top of the piston look like....does it have a dish or valve reliefs ? 

The 1 7/8in Hookers are fine for that type of build but you will want to go with a straight plug head (440 Source Stealths or MP 452 aluminum castings) for sparkplug & ignition wire access. 



Ron

[christianlarsen]

The pistons have valve reliefs.

Christian

[firefighter3931]

The pistons have valve reliefs.

Christian

Ok, those style pistons will have ~5cc of valve relief area which lowers static compression. Assuming your deckheight measurement is correct (you effectively have a zero-deck shortblock) and using a 84cc combustion chamber and a .051 thick head gasket i come up with : 11.2:1 static compression. This assumes that your deckheight measurements are correct. Fwiw, most aftermarket stroker kits will leave the piston below deck which reduces static compression. Really, the only way to know for sure is to pull a head and measure. 

I would say that even with aluminum heads you will be hard pressed to run this type of motor on 91 octane without severely retarding the timing curve. 

There are some ways to work around this but they involve thicker head gaskets or enlarging the combustion chambers on the heads or a combination of both.



Ron

[christianlarsen]

11.2 cr is too much but I was planning on using Edelbrock #60189 which are 88cc
wouldnt that change the picture enough ?

Is there something wrong about using the 88cc (60189) or will I "just" get less power ?

[firefighter3931]

11.2 cr is too much but I was planning on using Edelbrock #60189 which are 88cc
wouldnt that change the picture enough ?

Is there something wrong about using the 88cc (60189) or will I "just" get less power ?

The 88cc Eddy head is an open chamber design. By using that head you will lose any quench factor that you might have had and the engine will be more detonation prone even though the static compression is reduced.

With a pump gas street build you want a closed chamber head with flattop pistons. On a big stroke build like yours the correct piston is a "dished" piston which is flat on the chamber side and open beneath the valves. The increased piston volume reduces the static compression ratio enough to run pump gas. 

Short of replacing the pistons you are gonna have to find a way to reduce the static compression if you hope to have it run on pump gas. Several vendors sell dished stroker pistons for pump gas compatibility ; Diamond Racing, Ross, Keith Black etc...



Ron


Ps. Here is a pic of the stroker dish piston i am talking about from the 440 Source website

[christianlarsen]

Thnx Ron. I know u mean well but now im more confused than before i started the thread

So what youre telling me is that i need new pistons if im gonna use the 88cc and the 84 i will need to reduce compression with bigger gaskets, etc...?

Here is a link to pistons that look like the ones i have,...they look very similar to the on u submitted, are they the right kind or am i (probably) missing a point ? http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SRP%2D213458&autoview=sku
Is there another set of heads that will fit better ?
What would u do in this situation ?

Thnx
Christian (the confused )

[firefighter3931]

Christian, sorry for confusing you with all this technical data.....it is a lot of information to absorb for a newbie. Let me try again....

Ok lets start with your shortblock : the pistons you have in the engine are flattop pistons with small valve reliefs. These pistons will make lots of compression no matter what head you decide to use. The correct piston for a "pump gas" build would be the dished piston in the pic above.

So now we know that you need to either change the pistons or modify the cylinder heads to make it run on pump gas.

Cylinder heads : an open chamber head is not as efficient as a closed chamber head in terms of preventing detonation. The 88cc edelbrock heads are open chamber so allthough they would lower the compression ratio in theory....the open chamber design would cause detonation because of the increased quench distance. Quench refers to the distance between the top of the piston and the cylinder head. Effective quench area is .040-.060 and anything larger than that will negate any benefits. The head gasket thickness also comes into play when calculating quench because the piston sitting at zero deck (flush with the top of the block) would hit the cylinder head if there was no head gasket. So, the head gasket in effect creates the quench zone which should fall between .040-.060 inches 

How do we fix this : there are 2 ways...swap the pistons for something that will reduce the static compression or modify the heads to reduce compression.

What would i do : first thing i would do is pull a cylinder head and verify the piston to deck measurements. Factory blocks were all over the place and most came with more deckheight than they were supposed to. Unless your shortblock was specificly built for a zero deck specification it is more than likely not at zero deck. That piston to deck measurement is critical in determineing the proper course of action. Once we know that clearance it will be easier to form a plan of attack as far as what needs to be done with the cylinder heads and head gasket selection.

I'm assuming that you don't want to replace the pistons at this point because the engine is very fresh. 


Basicly in a nutshell : the pistons are incorrect for a pump gas build, but it might be possible to work around it. We just need some actual piston to deck measurements and then work out the other parts to make it work.


Here is a good thread for you to read and learn. There is some good discussion on stroker builds, closed chamber heads and the benefits of tight quench and it's importance in pump gas street builds.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,782.0.html




Ron

[christianlarsen]

hi Ron.

although this thread is old I finally got the number (piston to deck) you needed to help me and I hope you still can and will...
the piston to deck height is 0.03inch
I hope to keep my pistons (like you guessed) and my hooker headers...so does the deck height mean i can/should use 84cc edelbrok, keep quench effect since that is for flattop pistons or is there an other solution ?

/Christian

[firefighter3931]

hi Ron.

although this thread is old I finally got the number (piston to deck) you needed to help me and I hope you still can and will...
the piston to deck height is 0.03inch
I hope to keep my pistons (like you guessed) and my hooker headers...so does the deck height mean i can/should use 84cc edelbrok, keep quench effect since that is for flattop pistons or is there an other solution ?

/Christian

Christian, based on your .030 piston to deck spec i would recommend the closed chamber heads (84cc) and a .040 head gasket. The will yield a more reasonable 10.8:1 static compression ratio and better quench characteristics than the open chamber 88cc heads.



Ron

[christianlarsen]

Ok Ron. Great news 

Can you confirm that the 84cc edelbrock's will fit with my Hooker Headers:
Hooker Headers 5101-1HKR
  Primary Tube Diameter (in): 1 7/8 in.
  Collector Attachment: 3-bolt flange
  Collector Diameter: 3.000 in.

and a final question

i just purchased a pair of head gaskets: FPP-1105 they have a thickness of 0.051in. is that too much (you recommend .040) ?

thnx a ton for you help!
Christian

ps: remind me to send you some nice danish brew when this is over... 

[firefighter3931]

Christian, with the Hooker headers you will be better off going with a straight plug head like the MP 452 aluminum castings which are basicly an Edelbrock head with straight sparkplugs instead of angled sparkplugs. The angled plug heads like the Eddy RPM/Indy EZ will require some bashing of the header tubes to clear the plugs & ignition wires. If you had TTI headers this would be a non issue. The MP 452 aluminum heads are made by Edelbrock for Mopar Performance....same head as an RPM.

The .040 gasket is a better choice because it will keep the quench tighter and make it less prone to spark knock. Use a large bore diameter gasket to help knock as much static compression out of it as possible. Felpro makes a 4.5 bore gasket that is .040 compressed....use that one.

The 17/8 headers are fine to ~600hp so they are a good choice for a street/strip stroker build like you are planning...keep them and use the proper head casting to make it work. 



Ron

[christianlarsen]

ok great Ron!

im switching to MP 452 aluminum.

Im trying to find the gaskets you mention (from Fel Pro) and i can't. The best match is:
Cometic C5464-040, they give a Compressed Volume (cc): 10.425cc, bored 4.500in. and 0.040 compressed

can you link me the Fel Pro gasket with 4.50 and 0.040 specs. you had in mind ?


Christian

[firefighter3931]

ok great Ron!

im switching to MP 452 aluminum.

Im trying to find the gaskets you mention (from Fel Pro) and i can't. The best match is:
Cometic C5464-040, they give a Compressed Volume (cc): 10.425cc, bored 4.500in. and 0.040 compressed

can you link me the Fel Pro gasket with 4.50 and 0.040 specs. you had in mind ?


Christian

The Cometics are nice gaskets but are prone to leaks unless lots of care is taken to prep the head and deck surfaces. The finish must be super smooth (RA 50)

The Felpro Permatorques by contrast have never let me down and work fine with less than 12.5:1 compression and are much more user friendly. 

The Felpro for yours is the #17059 which is listed as a "marine" gasket but works just fine on a street/strip bruiser. Compressed thickness is .039 which is much better than the .051 gaskets you were going to use. 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FPP%2D17059&autoview=sku



Ron

[christianlarsen]

I find the MP 452 listed for 960$ at summit and 799$ at mopar performance parts (part 5153524)

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=DCC%2D5153524&N=700+4294925232+400172+4294838998+4294867081+115&autoview=sku

http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/bb.html

It looks like the exact same deal, is there some reason why i should not buy from mopar performance parts ?

/Christian

[jerry]

i bought my MP heads from mancini at mopar swap meet at indy for 700.00 ea.

[firefighter3931]

I find the MP 452 listed for 960$ at summit and 799$ at mopar performance parts (part 5153524)

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=DCC%2D5153524&N=700+4294925232+400172+4294838998+4294867081+115&autoview=sku

http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/bb.html

It looks like the exact same deal, is there some reason why i should not buy from mopar performance parts ?

/Christian

By all means buy the heads at Mopartsracing.com  Don't forget to order the correct ARP head bolts as well 


Ron

[christianlarsen]

I find 2 ARP head bolt choices on summit:

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ARP%2D245%2D3706&autoview=sku
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ARP%2D445%2D3706&autoview=sku

the difference is material: 8740 chromemoly versus Stainless steel ?

which one is the "correct" one or is it yet another ?

/Christian

[firefighter3931]

Here is the correct bolt set and assembly lube :

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ARP-145-3606

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ARP-100-9903

[c00nhunterjoe]

800 a peice for a complete head? not bad in my opinion. this should be a nice motor when its all said and done

[christianlarsen]

I just recieved the MP452 heads and they look nice! 

In the instructions I see that mopar recommend adjustable rocker arm assembly P4120974.
I had planned to reuse the original rocker arm assembly, pushrods etc. is that ok to do or must I follow mopar's instructions ?

/Christian

[christianlarsen]

I would also like advice on the spark plugs i should use ?

Now im using champion J8C but that could be incorrect and I suspect that the new heads also changes this ?

[firefighter3931]

I just recieved the MP452 heads and they look nice! 

In the instructions I see that mopar recommend adjustable rocker arm assembly P4120974.
I had planned to reuse the original rocker arm assembly, pushrods etc. is that ok to do or must I follow mopar's instructions ?

/Christian

With the 484 cam you can reuse the stock rockers, pushrods etc...no problem 

Yes, those heads are sweeeet....allmost to nice to bolt onto an engine. 



Ron

[firefighter3931]

I would also like advice on the spark plugs i should use ?

Now im using champion J8C but that could be incorrect and I suspect that the new heads also changes this ?

Yep, you will need new plugs for the aluminum heads. NGK BCPR-6ES will work great ! 



Ron

[christianlarsen]

Hi

I got the mp452 on the engine with everything else you specified and what an unbelievable difference!
i notice:
-better start
-much less shaking when running idle (close to still and i suspect the old fan in front might be in on it..)
-totally cool sound
-alot more power


I just ran the car for an easy ride (no kickdown of any kind  ) but the sense of more power/better combustion is very noticable and i had to yank my chins of my ears after...

To everyone who helped me out in this thread i thank you very much. Ron, I especially owe you great thanx for your advice and patient explanations!  thnx m8

/Christian

[firefighter3931]

That's fantastic news Christian ! 

Wait until you really hammer the throttle !!! 

Not surprising it feels much stronger....you picked up an easy 75hp with the aluminum 452's and the (closed) combustion chamber is much better for throttle response.

Good work buddy 




Ron

[christianlarsen]

Hi Ron.

I tried a couple of kickdowns now and the engine is still knocking when it pulls hard (it pulls very very hard by the way  and .)
I think the timing has to be lowered/retarted a bit. Can you tell me what range the timing must be within ? im running the engine on 95 pon (over here its 99 ron) so i dont believe its an octane problem rather timing.

/christian

[flyinlow]

I used Hooker comps on my 446 with Eddy Heads (84cc). Drivers side is fine  Pax side #2 and #8 plugs are very close . Clearenced headers and use plug boot insulators. ( and carry a spare plug wire). TTI s would be nice. Hookers have good ground clearence on my 73.

Edelbrock says the angle plug is worth 15 hp over the straight plug Mopar heads that they make.

I have srp flat top piston with valve reliefs. 10.6 CR .020 deck  if i remember .Runs well on 94 Ultra, ok on 92.