Big block to Small conversion

[blockhugger]

Was thinking about the possibility of dropping in a worked 360 into my 73' se ..
anyone know if the k member will work ... my car was originally a 400/w 727 and the big block trans is still in the car ..And if anyone has a basic I dea of how much H.P.  I will need to run in the 11's with such a big car

[deathcharger71]

im suppose to be in the 13's with my 360 in a 71 se...11's will require a big block im guessing, or a one gnarly 360 running 110 octane lol. the pro's on this site will have a better answer then me. i just wish i could get into the 11's with my 360 

[cudaken]

 Frist welcome and second I am in Dick Head Mode so I am turly sorry I will sound that way. I am a good guy and more than happy tp help but have a few questions.

First why do you feel like "I will need to run in the 11's with such a big car"? 11's come way harder than a motor alone. Guessing your is stock (Charger that is), if you dropped in a 600 HP motor it would be a waste of motor.

Second, why did you pick 11's? Sound cool and bragging right to the ET? Have you ran the Charger at a real track with lights? Unless you have ran a 13.0 you don't need to day dream about 11's. On the street 13's have killed many of Chargers and drivers as well. Things happen real fast with a 13 ET. Hit some gravel on the road or a dip and you are kissing Phone Poles.

First baby steps, I know you are not a baby but to the world of HP you are, other wises you would know what it would take to get in the 11's and you would be telling others how to do it.

Frist we need to know what kind of 400 you have? 400 HP, 727 or stick, rear gears and is it sure gripp or a single track.

You have a better start than most 73 Chargers owners with it being a Big Block. I my self am a big block man, 400,000 miles being dragged behinde one I will add.

Post your VIN and date plate so we know what you have to start with. Or should I say what the Charger came with. PIC of the engine would be of great help as well.

There are many great people here and I like to think I am 1 as well. But with out details most people won't answer your questions. I on the other hand like new and young people. I helped and talked on the phone with Sandmix (member) when we was 16, at 18 I hate to faces him on the street with his 73 Charger. Running 13.0's on steet tires. He cut a good light, well need to go grapp some more go fast parts from the garage.

                              Cuda Ken

PS, welcome as well

[Runner]

if your car is around 3700-3800 pounds (with you) it will take about 420-450hp to get it into the 11s, that would be with slicks, the right gear and right converter.

     

[chrisII]

i wont touch the questions of hp. but a small block does make for a nicer balance of weoght in the car, and a 360 with stock mounts will bolt right into the big block K frame. I know that the big block A body K frames that MP made located the mounts slightly forward but i believe the B body (73 and later here) used the same K frame big or small block

[blockhugger]

Hey Ken ... how's 10.33 in a back halved 87 Trans am twist your nad's ......I am not a rookie ... all my racing is done at the track ....The Charger is a much bigger car than a 87 trans am ...I'll go big block but was thinking small block from a cost standpoint .... 

[blockhugger]

Thanks runner thats th info I wanted

[cudaken]

Hey Ken ... how's 10.33 in a back halved 87 Trans am twist your nad's ......I am not a rookie ... all my racing is done at the track ....The Charger is a much bigger car than a 87 trans am ...I'll go big block but was thinking small block from a cost standpoint ....  

My nads feel fine. Problem is this, with out knowing what you have done and what you know I have to start some where. Many young people (say 15-17) will post a question much like what you did. Had one person want to buy my Supercharger. Gave him the prices and told me he had to ask his Dad?   He was not ready for what it could do.

I made a honest mistake. Also as stated I was in Dick Mode.

But when you said "And if anyone has a basic I dea of how much H.P.   I will need to run in the 11's with such a big car" you should have a good idea all ready being in the 10.'s.

If you like me to do the math I would be happy to. What do you plain on doing as far as gears, springs, tires etc.

Yow will all so need a driffrent Tans, drive shaft, and wiring.

                                              Nuts don't hurt at all, Cuda Ken

[blockhugger]

Ok maybe I didn't give enough info...the Charger is as of right now stock with the eception of a built 727 and 4:10 's in an 8 3/4 rear...the differential is getting swapped out for a locker,no spool..I have drivin a spool on the street with 5:89 gears and no power steering and it's scary as hell... The interior is all there,but will most likely be gutted for racing .. The reason I asked about H.P. was that it seems that about 450 to 550 h.p. seemes to be the going answer to running in the 11's the motor in the trans am I never had any specs on ...It  was built by Andy Jensen from Northeast P.A. and the guy I bought the motor from never gave me the dyno sheet ...

[cudaken]

 Block Hugger, here are a few numbers for you. 73 Charger is not a good choices for a race car, they are heavy. Come in right around 3700 pounds and may be a little more.

You did not say what 11's you wanted so I did the math for 11.00 to 11.8.

11.0 you need a P/W ratio of .142 X 3700 pounds = 525.4 HP with a auto.
11.0 at 3500 pounds = 497.0 HP
11.8 you need a P/W of .114 X 3700 pounds = 421.8 HP with a auto
11.8 at 3500 pounds = 399.0 HP. Very do able with the 360 or the 400.

Personal, unless you are getting the 360 for under $2000.00 I would look at making a stroker out of the 400. There are many postings about the stroker's on this site.

                                  Cuda Ken

[deathcharger71]

are those hp numbers at the crank or at he wheels....that would be a huuuuuge difference.

[cudaken]

 At the crank Death.

                                     Cuda Ken

[deathcharger71]

wow those are lower numbers then i expected...but the way your car is set up should really effect how much horsepower gets to your wheels right? like sub-frame connectors, build up suspension, tranny....500 hp could turn into 400 at the wheels or 300 at the wheels. other than good tranny and rear end what are some ways to get the power to the ground?

[cudaken]

 Death, remember these are reall HP numbers, not the advertise HP that mother moparand the other big 3 but out. 440 HP really only made around 270-330 depending on the year.

Yes the tran's, gear's spings and the other stuff really comes into play to get in the 11's. In many respects the HP is the easy part. But it all has to be dialed in just right. Little things like try to hit your peak hp just before you trip the finsh line light, 600 HP won't do you and good if you are only at 5500 RPM when you cross but peak HP is at 6200 RPM's. Takes a lot of time to figuer all the stuff out.


                             Cuda Ken

[caddman]

so don't mean to but in but i have a 73 charger and i am very experienced in your conversation.

1. i don't think that 360 will set in that big block k member that easily, they had to different k members for 73 and your small block had spool mounts and the big block didn't.

2. the charger is closer to 4000 pounds in small block trim (i ran mine across the scales with a 318 at 4040 pounds.

3. an 11 second charger wow you are talking money, even with a 440.  and if you plan on streeting it, that would be even more money, let me through some numbers at you.

1970 440 bored 30 over 474 cam 10:1 keath black pistons, ly rods, 906 heads w/ s.s. valves, m1 intake, holley 850.
727 trans 3500 stall and 4:10 gears.  this was a street combo that i put together, she would scream, 12.74 in the 1/4 mile @ 700 ft above sea level.

if you can make her hit 11's with out nitrous i would love to know how.

[blockhugger]

I think A .30 over 440 with the complete "Indy" top end  heads ,intake ,cam should do the trick ...the full cnc port job would be a must . That should give me some solid numbers  to tune on and should also be respectable on the street with about 10.5 to 1 compression...If I come up short on running 11's ill start shaving some weight of the car..There is a ton of weight to lose... thats the best part about having a "common" mopar you can cut it up and noone cares...lol I'll put in forged pistons just in case I wanna give her a shot of nitrous...

[caddman]

if you decide to loose the hood for glass i would be interested in taking that off your hands.

[cudaken]

 Hugger, if you are not kiding around, I think I have a motor for you. Will but you at a round 0.17125 Power to weight ratio with 4000 pounds.

                      Cuda Ken   

[Runner]

I think A .30 over 440 with the complete "Indy" top end   heads ,intake ,cam should do the trick ...the full cnc port job would be a must . That should give me some solid numbers   to tune on and should also be respectable on the street with about 10.5 to 1 compression...If I come up short on running 11's ill start shaving some weight of the car..There is a ton of weight to lose... thats the best part about having a "common" mopar you can cut it up and noone cares...lol I'll put in forged pistons just in case I wanna give her a shot of nitrous...

   i think some of you guys would be surprised at how stock a suspension can be and still run hard. my roadrunner weighs 3620 in street trim. and id think a 73 charger could weigh the same by getting rid of the exhaust manifolds for headers, aluminum intake,  manual brakes instead of power brakes, if it has a/c get rid of the heavy compressor. moving the battery to the trunk may not lose weight but it sure shifts it into the right places.   there is absolutly no reason a well thought out iron headed 440 with a 10 inch converter and 4.10-4.30 gears cant run well in to the elevens with a good tranny, and all stock suspension with a set of slicks and still be every bit as streetable as most street cars.   heck look at the F.A.S.T. cars, some of them are running bottom elevens on redlines and idle smooth and look bone stock, put a set of slicks on them and youve got a mid-high 10 second car.   

[cudaken]

 If you call Mushroom lifter's, flowed exhaust manfolids, matched ported every thing and cheating beyon what I can think of stock sure can run 10's stock. Yea, and I hate beer as well.

Yes 11.0's can be had with iron heads, I have done it. But it was a 426 Maxie and was pretty easy. If I had worked the back, may have dipped into high 10's.

                                         Cuda Ken

[Runner]

ken, anyway you look at the fast cars they are simply amazing, it is a huge balancing act and my hats off to all of them.

   ya they are heavily ported exhaust and intake manifolds, but they still are worse than a good aftermaket intake and headers, ya the heads are heavily worked, but they still are far from what is available in the aftermarket, and then there is the carb situation, traction situation ect.

   iin fact if he biuds an indy headed 440 and cant get it to run 11's then he really screwed something up!

[cudaken]

 About 10 years ago I was follwing the FAST racing. My mouth fell open when I saw a 70 Runner 440-6 Barrel running like 11.2's? I would never belivied it if I had not seen it. Sure looked like a stocker but idle didn't. I asked them if it had mushroom lifters, did not get a answer

But at a tear down the cam would have a stock lift and duration.

                        Cuda Ken

[blockhugger]

Hey Ken tell me more about this motor?

[71Charger500]

Hey Ken ... how's 10.33 in a back halved 87 Trans am twist your nad's ......I am not a rookie ... all my racing is done at the track ....The Charger is a much bigger car than a 87 trans am ...I'll go big block but was thinking small block from a cost standpoint ....  

My nads feel fine. Problem is this, with out knowing what you have done and what you know I have to start some where. Many young people (say 15-17) will post a question much like what you did. Had one person want to buy my Supercharger. Gave him the prices and told me he had to ask his Dad?   He was not ready for what it could do.

I made a honest mistake. Also as stated I was in Dick Mode.

I can handle fast cars just fine.  Like my dads Vette making around 650 horsepower.  I had to run it by my dad because he is doing the main work on the car, and Im just helping him.  He knows a lot more than me about engines, so I needed to talk to him about it first.

[Runner]

ken , we must be talking about 2 different kinds of cars, the ones im talking about sound stock, pull good vacuum ect, infact they are suposed to look and sound the way they did when they rolled off the floor. this is a class that ruled by hemis  ,buicks and i believe a "396" nova.  ope up the cover of most any yearone  mopar catilog and youll see dave debucks

[cudaken]

GMC Big Bore 6-71 Super Charger polished and never ran Lifetime warranty on blower it self.
Blower gaskets
BDS front cover new with sight hole and pressure relief new
Dyer drive modified to by BDS to fit BB Mopar or BB Chevy (yuck) new
3 speed wiper motor to clear blower
BDS top cover for dual crabs, used I think
Modified rear bearing plate and cover ready to run new
Blower straps, SEMA but out of date, no lower hook ups
Dual Edelbrock's 600 CFM and jetted for a blower, have 10 hours on them and sealed used
BDS Lower drive with dual keyways new
3" dive belt new
10 + or - drive gears 1/2 pitch and new
Holley 2 regulator1 used and 1 new
Aluminum blower scoop, low profile used but looks good
BDS 833 tented polished intake used and is a custom cut intake for better fit
BDS poop off, new
V-belt drive for P/S and ALT
Reed blower cam, has 90 miles on it and look fine. Will list specks if contacted
18 feet of 1/2 stain less steel line new
1 used and one new Holley blue pump
MSD timing control used can adjust timing from under the dash
9 quart pan, 90 miles and pick up.

74 440 30 over and will be ready to bolt together with .004 piston clearances
Block was bored with plates
69 440 crank 10 /10 oil holes chamfered
Balanced lower end
Chrome Timing Chain Cover
Mildon HVLP Oil Pump
Harden oil pump drive
Speed Pro L2266F Pistons
Speed Pro Plasma Chrome Molly file to fit rings
APR main studs, block was lined bored
YL rods shoot penned, polished beams and harden and APR rod bolts
APR head bolts
346 heads
2.14 Manley intake and Fera 1.80 stainless steel valves
All new seats
All new steel guides
Matched ported
MP P3690933 springs and matching retainers
Heads cc at 88 cc’s
MP Roller chain
Crane custom cut push rods
MP HP stamped rocker arms and shafts
72 440 intake
Felpro 1215 intake gasket
Steel balancer


If the Desk top dyno is have way right will make 685 HP at a mer 5200 RPM's and 600 foot pounds. Say it is off 15% that is still 582 HP and 510 foot pounds. Part that made my head hurt at 2000 RPM's 300 HP and 789 Foot pounds.

I am tired of fighting at my age, stock 440 is starting to sound pretty good to me.  PM me and we will talk Have a line on a 25,000 Mile 440 69 motor like I care about the date codes.

                                        Cuda Ken

[BBMoparFreak]

Ken, not doubting what you're saying, but just wanting to get this figured out.
According to this: http://www.race-cars.net/calculators/et_calculator.html
It will take 545 RearWheel HorsePower to get a 11.02 ET for a  3700 LB (being generous) Charger.

And BlockHugger, don't  cut up that car!  Its worth more than that, and is only growing in value.  Especially an original BB car, and if it has any options at all, and is in good condition.

Michael

[cudaken]

 I just did it with a trap speed at 119 so that would be right at a 11.2. Showed 486 rear wheel HP. Hum, what can you say. I all so listed it at 3700 pounds. I will stick with my bible, has not let me down yet.

                                    Cuda Ken

[caddman]

you will have to let us know what you have to do to get down to 3700.
are you gutting it out or keeping it on the street?
don't forget to tie your frame rails, i neglected that with my 440 and stress cracked the paint on the driver side A pillar.  sounds like a great challenge though.

[cudaken]

 I broke the windsheild. I sort of thing Block Hugger is gone.

                                                     Cuda Ken

[caddman]

i have a question for you cuda ken, i'm looking all over for a rubber isolator that is bolted into the lower steering column of my 73 charger (just above the steering box). would you know of anyone that would have a spare?

thanks

caddman

[blockhugger]

Nah I am still here ...Had a heroin overdose in the family ... to busy to talk right now....

[Chryco Psycho]

i have a question for you cuda ken, i'm looking all over for a rubber isolator that is bolted into the lower steering column of my 73 charger (just above the steering box). would you know of anyone that would have a spare?

thanks

caddman

Check the Help parts in a local parts store I know they have them

Hang in there BH 

[cudaken]

 Sorry to hear that BH. Hope it was not someone you where close to.

                                        Cuda Ken