S.E. Daytona Question

[Moparmatty]

My Dad thought of this at the show in Brampton the other day.

Since most R/T SE Chargers have vinyl roofs, were the R/T SE's used in the Daytona conversions vinyl roof cars at the time of the conversion?  Jim is going to check the Doc Daytona for any evidence where the vinyl roof trim holes would have been welded up at the time of the conversion.  Anyone else have any thoughts?

[hemigeno]

The SE package did not require or imply the use of vinyl tops, so I personally don't see any correlation.  That being said, a lot of car buyers (or dealerships ordering their stock) who plunked down the money for the SE package may also have wanted to dress their ride up with a vinyl top too.  I have yet to see a Daytona or Charger500, SE or otherwise, with a Vinyl Top coded on the broadcast sheet or fender tag.

Never say never, I suppose, but that would be one rare beast if it did exist.



**EDIT**  The Charger500 press release dated July 18, 1968 as well as the Daytona press release dated 4/15/69 both mention that the Vinyl Roof option was not available.  As such, someone would have had to fall asleep at the switch for a V-Top C500 or Daytona to have been built at Hamtramck.

[sunroofsuperbird]

Dont forget the Mod Top Daytona 

[hemigeno]

Dont forget the Mod Top Daytona 

Anything goes when you take your ride on over to Joe's Car Customizing and Pool Cleaning Service...

[Moparmatty]

I'm not talking about the Daytona being coded on the build sheet for a vinyl top or a factory built Daytona with a vinyl roof.  I'm not trying to open that can of worms.  The R/T SE's that were used in the few conversions could have been vinyl roof cars at the time of conversion but when the XX29 broadcast sheets were made of course that option wouldn't show up.  It was lost on the XP29 sheet as it was know at the factory that the Daytonas and for that matter the 500's weren't being built with vinyl roofs.

Perhaps the thing next thing I should ask is, when were the serial numbers and broadcast sheets made up and switched in the cars before the conversions began?  I realize that it was all switched sometime before the cars made it over to Creative Industries.

[maxwellwedge]

True - a vinyl top was not standard equipment on an SE. I guess the question as I understood it it was, did all the R/T's they plucked for conversion have slick roofs? The reasoning was that they practically messed with everything on the cars so if the "pool" of R/T's was getting sparse, did they grab some vinyl roof cars to get the production done and then rip off the vinyl? I doubt it but if their backs were against the wall do they run more R/T's down the line or start grabbing Sales Bank cars. Just some hypothetical car talk to ponder.

[hemigeno]

I don't think there's too many instances where an R/T was "pulled" from the line and given a new identity as an XX29 car.  That's not an uncommon thought or idea as I've heard it many times over the years, but to my knowledge the cars were given an Aero identity from inception/order until conversion by Creative Industries.  There might be an exception here or there (one I know of being 287970, but that SE was not coded for a V-Top) to that rule, but for the most part the order sheets were entered in from Day One as a fastback aerocar with the proverbial slick top.

[maxwellwedge]

Geno - are you braving your dial-up or you still at work? 

[hemigeno]

Some early C500s had somewhat of an identity crisis when it came to their fender tags and engine stampings, but the limitation on aerocar V-tops had already been established prior to the start of 1969 model year production.  

Incidentally, 287970 has a Fender Tag and Broadcast Sheet which makes no mention of the A11 Daytona package, and the car was actually built at Hamtramck about a month and a half before work on the Daytona program began.  The car was only given a new VIN dash plate - which was installed with some rather unique rivets.  It's as legit as any car I've seen though, and actually has some cool prototype traits to it - like DocTona has...

I've seen another VIN number listed between 287970 and 355101 which may or may not be a true XX29 Daytona, so I can't say much about it.  As far as the others go, it's a pretty safe bet that they were all ordered/specified/built without a V-top.

[hemigeno]

Geno - are you braving your dial-up or you still at work? 

Still at work, although not much work is going on like should be happening...   

[A383Wing]

Geno...forgive me for being a complete idiot here...but I thought all Daytona's were originally R/T's and they were pulled from the line in groups of 3 sequential serial numbers...

We were at the reunion in '99, and we found about 3 sets of Daytona's with serial numbers in order.

Or am I just a total idiot?

Bryan  (not smarter than a 5th grader)

[hemigeno]

Your observation about the sequential serial numbers is absolutely correct, but that doesn't necessarily imply they were pulled off the line in batches.  To be honest, I'm not sure that any batches of Charger R/Ts were given sequential VIN numbers - maybe Chris or Doug/69CoronetRT could help out with that?

There are actually quite a few sequential VINs in both the C500 and Daytona runs, and there are several groupings of sequential VINs throughout the Daytona production period which primarily started in late April and ran through mid-June.

Not a bad question or observation at all.

[Moparmatty]

True - a vinyl top was not standard equipment on an SE. I guess the question as I understood it it was, did all the R/T's they plucked for conversion have slick roofs? The reasoning was that they practically messed with everything on the cars so if the "pool" of R/T's was getting sparse, did they grab some vinyl roof cars to get the production done and then rip off the vinyl? I doubt it but if their backs were against the wall do they run more R/T's down the line or start grabbing Sales Bank cars. Just some hypothetical car talk to ponder.

Exactly.  It's possible.  Since they were repainting the roofs anyways because of the plug install, they could have just as easily welded up the vinyl top trim holes and refinished the rest of the roof.  And presto change o, we now have a non-vinyl roof Daytona.

[hemigeno]

True - a vinyl top was not standard equipment on an SE. I guess the question as I understood it it was, did all the R/T's they plucked for conversion have slick roofs? The reasoning was that they practically messed with everything on the cars so if the "pool" of R/T's was getting sparse, did they grab some vinyl roof cars to get the production done and then rip off the vinyl? I doubt it but if their backs were against the wall do they run more R/T's down the line or start grabbing Sales Bank cars. Just some hypothetical car talk to ponder.

Exactly.  It's possible.  Since they were repainting the roofs anyways because of the plug install, they could have just as easily welded up the vinyl top trim holes and refinished the rest of the roof.  And presto change o, we now have a non-vinyl roof Daytona.

That scenario still assumes some "pool" of R/Ts were the source of Daytonas - which is not the case.  Every shred of evidence shows that all (with one exception, of course) Daytonas had A11 coding from the time the car was entered into Chrysler's production system.  As such, I do not think it was probable at all.

It's still possible that some Hamtramck line worker wasn't paying attention and drilled vinyl top mouldings on a true earmarked Daytona, just like there are a very few cars that received an R/T emblem in the tailpanel instead of the Charger/arrowhead emblem .  Those were mistakes - and were done that way in contravention to the Broadcast Sheet instructions.

[Moparmatty]

That scenario still assumes some "pool" of R/Ts were the source of Daytonas - which is not the case.  Every shred of evidence shows that all (with one exception, of course) Daytonas had A11 coding from the time the car was entered into Chrysler's production system.  As such, I do not think it was probable at all.

It's still possible that some Hamtramck line worker wasn't paying attention and drilled vinyl top mouldings on a true earmarked Daytona, just like there are a very few cars that received an R/T emblem in the tailpanel instead of the Charger/arrowhead emblem .  Those were mistakes - and were done that way in contravention to the Broadcast Sheet instructions.

That makes perfect sense Gene. :thumb:

[hemi68charger]

That scenario still assumes some "pool" of R/Ts were the source of Daytonas - which is not the case.  Every shred of evidence shows that all (with one exception, of course) Daytonas had A11 coding from the time the car was entered into Chrysler's production system.  As such, I do not think it was probable at all.

It's still possible that some Hamtramck line worker wasn't paying attention and drilled vinyl top mouldings on a true earmarked Daytona, just like there are a very few cars that received an R/T emblem in the tailpanel instead of the Charger/arrowhead emblem .  Those were mistakes - and were done that way in contravention to the Broadcast Sheet instructions.

That makes perfect sense Gene. :thumb:

Such is always the case with Geno....... Makes perfect sense......  Jim, Danny and Geno,,,,,,,,,, I'm not worthy !!!!   

[hergfest]

You see sequential serial numbers on most of the special runs that Chrysler did.  You see this on the T/A and AARs too.

[hemi68charger]

You see sequential serial numbers on most of the special runs that Chrysler did.  You see this on the T/A and AARs too.

Oh No !!!!!!  Those are E-bodies !!!!   

[nascarxx29]

Sometimes there in sequential form .And then there not starting with 287970-?- 355101-355156-356502-356538-358397-358403-376479-379752-381527-381930-383263-386970 -388179-388881 390006-390044 398852-398855-400562-400608-402961-405189-409021-409079-410759 {410 vins mostly Ca cars }410797-412542-412550.{414 cars are Canada daytonas 414558-414666-417456-419443-419444-423238-423240-434780
Ive wondered as far to see if there were twin cars 1 vin away in a certain number sequence .Sometimes yes and sometime no.I know these cars 356521 and 356522 are matching twins

         

line in groups of 3 sequential serial numbers...??

[hemigeno]

I'm not worthy !!!!   

   Some guys that have been in this hobby a long time have forgotten more about wing cars than I'll ever know.  There's always more to study and learn about them - that's one reason they fascinate me so much anyway.

You see sequential serial numbers on most of the special runs that Chrysler did.  You see this on the T/A and AARs too.

That's what I was thinking too, hergfest...  69.5 A12 cars are another example, right?

[nascarxx29]

  Quote 69.5 A12 cars are another example, right?

A friend of mine has owned a few 69 1/2 superbees.What I recall thinking was odd is that it still has E 63 383 engine code on the fender tag.The dash vin is changed to a M.What number sequence they run to and from Im not sure Six Pack Dave would certainly know that.But these cars also have ties to the wingcars .As Creative industries supplied the hood and played a part on these cars to

[nascarxx29]

XX29-9B 410### California Daytonas XX29-9B 414### are Canada Daytonas.Makes me wonder if any other sequence of daytona vins indicate a certain geographical location

[69_500]

The idea of a 500 with a vinyl roof was was removed, and then later the car was earmarked to be a 500 instead of a R/T makes more sense than that happening on the Daytona's. Being that there are several known examples of cars being messed up in the 500 sense. IE no A11 on fender tag, NO XX anywhere on the car. Only thing however that these cars all have in common is the 925xxx SON. Even though they messed up some of the paperwork, they still managed to label all of them with the right SON's that I'm aware of. So if you go back through them though I don't know if even on the 500's if they could have slipped one in with a factory vinyl roof, that was later removed by Creative. Now there are several known 500's that are known to have had dealer installed vinyl roofs before they were sold new. Of those though I can' think of any that were 500 SE's though.

[hemigeno]

If you know the VON of those "identity crisis" C500s, you probably also have the Fender Tag or Broadcast Sheet information too, right?

You'd be able to tell if the car was slated to receive a vinyl top with either of those - and if I'm a betting man (even though I'm really not) I'll bet the ranch that none of 'em have V1_ coded.

You're right though, a mistake would have been more likely to have happened with a 500, since they sorta knew the drill by the time the Daytona program rolled around.

[hemigeno]

XX29-9B 410### California Daytonas

Actually, only 11 of the 38 cars in the 410xxx VIN series (29%) were slated to be shipped to California.  Out of the 45 +/- California cars, that means 34 of them (75%) have VINs outside that series.

It's true that the Canadian cars (with the usual one exception - being 423239) were in the 414xxx range, but that's the only geographic correlation that seems to hold fast.  Everything else seems to be pretty spread around, but I'm no statistical genius for sure.  Hated statistics classes in college...