On the topic of cheap fuel injection

[CFMopar]

http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/


this site says they can do a basic set up for 750 bucks.

Im gonna inquire more latter.

[d72hemi]

keep us updated!

[Ghoste]

I don't think it was cheap, but whatever happened to the Rance setup that everyone was making noise about a few years ago?  Wasn't he fabbing up some kind of Mopar specific kit?

[CFMopar]

http://www.rancefi.com/


they have mopar setups and I think its what your refereing to. Their nice but a little steep. But you can get tuned port which would be cool.

[Ghoste]

Yeah, that's the one.  I remember Mopar Action in particular getting pretty excited about the Rance system but then they kind of just quit talking about it.  I suppose everyone is waiting to see if the Edelbrock kit will be the way to go.

[CFMopar]

I dont think the edelbrock one has the same adapability to higher hp aplications as many of the more expensive ones out their....

[Rolling_Thunder]

Edelbrock is a Speed Density system....   easiest and simplest to make...    i would like a Mass Air Flow system...   and im sorry $4000+ for a tuned port fuel injection system is WAY too much...    hell i bet i can build one for less than half that

[Ghoste]

Agreed, but the topic was "cheap" fuel injection and I think that will be the main selling feature of the Edelbrock unit.  Like all good advertisers, I think the mags will soon be running thier setup in tons of features.

[doctorpimp]

http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/


this site says they can do a basic set up for 750 bucks.

Im gonna inquire more latter.

I bet it's '80s technology TBI for that price.   Good fuel economy, but no power.
I checked out http://www.momarefi.com/ starts at $2974.00 complete for MPI.   Using Electromotive Tec3r w/Distributorless Ignition.   DREAM...

[CFMopar]

Where did u get that price?

[Chryco Psycho]

Year One has the Eddy multi port system listed for $2900

[Ghoste]

For nearly three thousand dollars, it may be a while before there is great efi revolution for our old cars.  You can buy a lot of other parts for 3 grand.

[doctorpimp]

Where did u get that price?

I sent them an email late in the Summer:
Hello,
> I am looking for prices for a Mopar "B" eng EFI MPI setup.
> Can you help me?

Reply:

Hi Paul;

The system we have for your BB Mopar is the "Custom Series"  it starts
at $2974.00
complete,  you supply the manifold, or we will supply at jobber cost

Thank you
Dave
momar Injection

[doctorpimp]

400 Stroker with Momar EFI and TEC3 dist-less ignition:

[doctorpimp]

For nearly three thousand dollars, it may be a while before there is great efi revolution for our old cars.   You can buy a lot of other parts for 3 grand.

This system is distributor-less and includes computer-tuneable fuel management, with a 1000 cfm aluminum throttle body. 
All told, going old-school would be half (MSD distributor $382, 1050 CFM Dominator $675, MSD 6AL $229, MSD Coil $40, Holley electric fuel pump $145,etc...) BUT, you get better fuel economy, torque, idle quality etc, etc, etc.
The money you save in fuel over a few years of use as a daily driver, pays for the other half.

[CFMopar]

Its definently something I'm going to do just when. The momar setup for 3gs sounds good. I sent and email inquiring will see.

[Ghoste]

I agree Doc but I think there will still be a lot of people who stick with the old stuff at that price.  A lot of folks are going to already have the old school stuff sitting around.  More power and tuneability are clear benfits but how many of us use these cars for daily drivers.  In my case, it would take a long time to recoup any costs in better mileage.  Then again, fuel is never going to be cheaper so you could be right on the couple of year thing even for the weekend drivers like me.
Overall, I think it will be a gradual acceptance of efi over carbs.

[doctorpimp]

Maybe it'll get cheaper with the advances in technology.
Just like DVD players and TV's etc...
You never know.

[d72hemi]

Didn't someone post a way to use exsisting EFI system from a car/truck and make it work with our SB/BB engines? the "old" d-c site?


Ian

[Rolling_Thunder]

no   someone did on another site though...   using a ford MAF system....   up the injector size and a few modifications to the wiring and some stuff here and there and it is possible...   im planning on doing this myself...    $1500 alternative that is self adjusting... 

[doctorpimp]

no     someone did on another site though...     using a ford MAF system....     up the injector size and a few modifications to the wiring and some stuff here and there and it is possible...     im planning on doing this myself...      $1500 alternative that is self adjusting...  

Tell us more...
Do you have a link for this info?

[d72hemi]

Rolling Thunder,

Do you know what type/year/engine of car/truck/SUV needed to salvage to make it work? I assume that you don't remember the site that you seen this on? Thank you, I love to go to junk yards to get what I need/want!

Ian

[Ghoste]

That's a more agreeable price.  I think the other thing that will need to happen is for someone to write an easy to understand yet comprehensive guide on this.  For many of us, the idea of pulling a spark plug and changing the jets seems easier than plugging in a laptop and calibrating a fuel map.  It shouldn't be that way but the perception is out there.
For that matter, does a laptop need to be included in the cost of efi if you are looking to really get it tuned hot?

[CFMopar]

Its not so much the laptop its more the issues of wiring everything up I think.

[Ghoste]

Strictly speaking as a computer illiterate, for me, it's the laptop.   The wiring too I suppose but in all reality, knowing nothing about it, I'm in no position to judge.  I'm showing fear for something I haven't seen which is pretty stupid really.
I'll have to see it on someone else's car first and then I can start to get my arms around it a little better.  Not a good theory type maybe.

[golden73]

Don't forget to check out http://www.force-efi.com/

They do efi conversions starting at $3250... you even get to pick your own ECU so you can have one to suit your needs

[Troy]

Rolling Thunder,

Do you know what type/year/engine of car/truck/SUV needed to salvage to make it work? I assume that you don't remember the site that you seen this on? Thank you, I love to go to junk yards to get what I need/want!

Ian

The guy who modified the Ford system posts on Moparts and on Cuda-Challenger.com. His username is 1974Cuda360 on both. Here are some threads:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2175896&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1930675&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=7247.0

Troy

[d72hemi]

Thank you Troy

[Rolling_Thunder]

well the guy originally posted some of the generic info somewhere but then decided to take it down and start making them himself...     he started a forum but hasnt done anything with it....        www.efimopar.com


Lucky for my i printed the entire thread with all the info he posted before it was taken down....         I'll post most of it tomarrow

[doctorpimp]

Thanks Troy.
Thanks R. T.

[Troy]

You're welcome.

Troy

[Steve P.]

400 Stroker with Momar EFI and TEC3 dist-less ignition:

Wow,,,, That's tooooo perdy!!!

[Ghoste]

Not that it matters to this thread really, but does anyone know what kind of vehicle that is in?  I'm just curious because of where the coil pack and wiper motor are mounted.

[CFMopar]

how would it work without the distributor?

[Troy]

how would it work without the distributor?

Better question: Why would you need a distributor?

Troy

[Ghoste]

It's a coil pack.  The computer determines which coil needs to fire.

[CFMopar]

Nice gotta look into that....

[Ghoste]

It's a great setup because it's also determining timing and the advance curve and tailoring it to the fuel delivery.
I'm still stuck in the old school though and as many here can tell you, I don't have a professor's grasp of that either.
It's all fun though.

[doctorpimp]

Not that it matters to this thread really, but does anyone know what kind of vehicle that is in?  I'm just curious because of where the coil pack and wiper motor are mounted.

It looks like a Pick-up to me.  The high hood and all.

[Ghoste]

Okay, my next question would regarding the plug over the distributor hole.  It looks to be more involved than a simple plug for the hole.  Why?

[doctorpimp]

Okay, my next question would regarding the plug over the distributor hole.  It looks to be more involved than a simple plug for the hole.  Why?

It's just a plug, to take the place of the distr.  On B engines the oil pump is driven by the cam, a gear on a shaft turns the pump.

[Ghoste]

Looks like a lot of extra work went into it.

[CFMopar]

Looks like all he did was cut up a distributor and put a piece of metal over it then bolted it down....

[Rolling_Thunder]

Looks like all he did was cut up a distributor and put a piece of metal over it then bolted it down....

well something has to protrude down to keep the oil pump drive from lifting out of the cam doesnt it ?

[doctorpimp]

It'll be somthing like this:


That one is for a Chebby.

I looked on Momar's site, but couldn't see any pics.  I'm sure they've got that figured.  It is a kit and I don't think they'll just have you cut a distributor.

[Ghoste]

Actually, the portion that had me most curious, was the top where it appears to be a seaparate cap held on by three Allen head screws.

[doctorpimp]

Actually, the portion that had me most curious, was the top where it appears to be a seaparate cap held on by three Allen head screws.

OH, I see that now, sorry.  I'm not sure.  It could be a homemade plug...made from an old distributor

[CFMopar]

Thats what I'm sayin doc

[defiance]

Obligatory; I see an EFI discussion, I gotta post

One thing I noted about that email was the "you supply the manifold" bit...  The manifold is a pretty notable exclusion, since the ONLY manufacturer I'm aware of making port injection manifolds for bb's is Edelbrock, and they adamantly informed me they would not sell them outside of their kit. 
So, not only must you add the price of a manifold on to that, you must also add the price of fab work.  If you can do it yourself, great; if not, for reference, a local shop here charged me around $300 for bungs and fabrication.  Might be steep, might not, who knows.

Anyway, I've seen nothing to contradict that megasquirt is the absolute best value in powerful EFI.  My own setup now includes port injection, timing control (still uses the distributor, but the only disadvantage compared to distributorless is about 1-2 degrees of 'jitter'), wideband oxygen sensor (which allows you to set actual air/fuel ratio targets across your map/rpm grid and the system makes automatic real-time adjustments -- you set exactly how much it's allowed to correct, and how quickly it does it -- and it's GREAT for tuning, you can print out a graph showing *exactly* what your a/f was at particular times in your drive), and it could be reproduced for ... just a sec, calculating ... arount $1700, if you do all the work except for the manifold modifications yourself (as noted above). 

Of course, it requires a good bit of time installing, but it's well worth it...  The cost of a commercial ECU *alone* that matches the MS ecu is around $2000.  And megasquirt's capabilities are expanding rapidly (new firmwares being released on a regular basis) - For example, recent additions to the firmware capabilities are boost control, water injection control, 'simulated' traction control (limits engine accelleration speed to prevent slip - haven't tried this yet, it's still considered a 'beta' feature ), etc.etc...

  www.megasquirt.info -- www.msefi.com

Hm.  wonder why somebody hasn't put together 'kits' with Megasquirts, pre-wired harnesses and components to go into other vehicles?   That'd be really interesting... .... ....

[Rolling_Thunder]

ive never even heard of mega squirt...    i'll have to look into them

[defiance]

It's basically an open-source ECU development project.  Which has many implications -good: 1) VERY inexpensive ECU (you just buy parts, costs less than $300), 2) LOTS of features, more added all the time, and usually incorporating them is simply a matter of downloading firmware, and bad: -1) you build the unit (personally, I liked this, since I trust my solder work over a machine any day ) though, you can buy them assembled from some sources now, and -2) it does require a bit of research to put together parts for the setup... though I'll be happy to make part recommendations if anyone's interested

Anyway, it's definitely more difficult, no question... but the capabilities are awesome!

[Rolling_Thunder]

Well I assume it is a speed density type system ?  What are the benefits of SD over MAF systems besides being easier to make and cheaper to build? I know MAF systems are somewhat self adapting where SD systems need to be recalibrated for changes such as cam and airflow....      So if i used the mega squirt system would i need a laptop to tweak it ?  I would imagine so....    unless i am of coarse wrong.  I have no problem building a system myself, it doesnt seem to be very difficult and plus it would give me something to do....     

[Ghoste]

Something to do?  You know RT, you don't strike me as being someone with a whole lot of time on his hands?

[Rolling_Thunder]

well...    was that saccastic or serious ?  Well i dont sleep that much and i enjoy building things....   

[Ghoste]

No, it was serious.  It just seems like you always have something on the go.

[Rolling_Thunder]

well im a full time college student, work at least 40 hours a week, and have a small personal life but hey...   im up for challenges....    if i sit and no nothing i go literally insane and get weird little skin rashes....    dont ask...   doctors say its "nerves"    oh well...     

[doctorpimp]

Obligatory; I see an EFI discussion, I gotta post

One thing I noted about that email was the "you supply the manifold" bit...  The manifold is a pretty notable exclusion, since the ONLY manufacturer I'm aware of making port injection manifolds for bb's is Edelbrock, and they adamantly informed me they would not sell them outside of their kit. 
So, not only must you add the price of a manifold on to that, you must also add the price of fab work.  If you can do it yourself, great; if not, for reference, a local shop here charged me around $300 for bungs and fabrication.  Might be steep, might not, who knows.

They install the bungs for the injectors in the manifold of your choice.  That's why you have to send them the manifold.
Megasquirt sounds cool...I'd never heard of it before.  I'm checking it out...

[dkn1997]

If your'e feeling really saucy, you could PM "Jerry" over at moparts.  He has lot's of experience with megasquirt controllers.  He can even assemble the controller for you and mod your choice of intake, then you would just have to source the throttle body, fuelrails, pump, etc....
He could help you pick out what you need.

[Ghoste]

So for moment, everyone agrees that the Megasquirt system is the one that most falls under the topic of "cheap" fuel injection? 

[doctorpimp]

So for moment, everyone agrees that the Megasquirt system is the one that most falls under the topic of "cheap" fuel injection? 

I'd say.  It's worth looking into!

[Rolling_Thunder]

So for moment, everyone agrees that the Megasquirt system is the one that most falls under the topic of "cheap" fuel injection? 

I'd say.  It's worth looking into!

I agree....    sure $300 for the computer isnt bad...   but price everything else out...  i figure all together using all new parts around $1700...        think about it....   

wire
computer (ECU)
fuel pump
fuel pressure regulator
fuel return line
fuel rails
machining of fuel rails
fuel injectors
connectors
o2 sensors
throttle body(s)
intake manifold
fuel injector bungs
installation of bungs to manifold....

all these things add up - but yes if you wanted to it would classify as cheap fuel injection...    one of the most affordable out there i've seen

[dkn1997]

deleted by dkn

[Rolling_Thunder]

yes - MAF is more complicated as well...     also there was a little more needed - mostly dealing with the distributor....   

[defiance]

wow, this could simplify things...  I was going to post this:
http://www.auto-nomics.com/cgi-bin/showresults?a=detail&part=10850-002-D
which is about the cheapest you'll EVER find a 4-bbl compatible throttle body, and it's 750cfm default (though it can be modified to supply between 500 and 1000 pretty easily, according to the docs), and costs $75..
But they just added a new product, this - if you're thinking about throttle body injectors, this would definitely help out:
http://www.auto-nomics.com/cgi-bin/showresults?a=detail&part=12168-001
which is just an amazing little combo...  Throttle body, Fuel regulator, fuel rails, TPS, and costs $375...  No injectors, though, and you'd need somewhere around 300-lb/hr (40-lb or so per cyl) for a bb, so that's probably around $250 (based on 4 of these for the tb - http://www.racetronix.com/17113743FM.html or 8 of these for the manifold - http://www.racetronix.com/621010.html
Anyway, I have to admit I had to try several different configurations before I found one I really liked, but that means I've messed around enough I can give some pretty in-depth info on all the things to avoid (the things I messed up ).  Anybody wants more info, feel free to send me an email (defiancecp@gmail.com)

[Rolling_Thunder]

yeah - but I would much rather have a ECU controlled MPFI system....     you can get a Commander 950 system Throttle body injection for around $1000  and it has EVERYTHING you need...       i personally would go MPFI as it seems to be a better system

[doctorpimp]

Yeah, I agree.
If I'm going to do it, it'll be MPFI.

[Ghoste]

Same here.  I generally think of throttle bodies as electric carburetors.  Superior yes, but still leaving a lot of potential on the table.

[dkn1997]

If you have a driver/cruiser type of car, then I actually like the throttle body systems.  I ran a Holley Projection system and I loved the throttle response and part throttle driveability of it.  The huge weak link was with the computer.  If I were to do throttle body again, I would probably use the one from the autonomics with a megasquirt controller.  you could probably do that system, with a megasquirt 1 controller, for under 1000  bucks. 

[defiance]

Agreed on the holley ecu's!!  My system actually started out as a megasquirt ECU controlling a holley Pro-Jection throttle body.  When my dad had the car, he put the pro-jection on it, but the old holley ECU *really* stunk when it worked right, and it stopped doing even that after a bit ...  Of course, they've changed a lot, so they may be better now.  So, that's how I got it, good tb, bad ecu
Anyway, when I changed to port injection, it wasn't necessarily just for the advantages...  a couple of the injectors on the holley tb died (shouldn't be considered a reflection of the product, they were stored for a while without cleaning out the fuel first, so it ruined them), and because it was an older TB, it would have cost around $500 to fix it (the injectors were no longer made, so I had to buy another injector tower, which in turn wasn't compatible with my old injectors, so I'd have had to replace even the good ones...)  So, I just saved that money and put it all into converting.  Still using the holley throttle body, just without injectors in it now   Throttle response definitely seems a little improved, but I can't say for certain whether it affected HP/torque...  I didn't get much actual drive time with the TB setup, and it didn't get dyno'd either way.  was going to, but that's a long story that involves me raving, so I'll stop now

[Chryco Psycho]

I am not a fan of the Projection system , we went through 4 controllers in a month the last one had no power but wouldn`t blow up so we couldn`t even get warranty

[68MoparCharger]

Because you can control the spark and fuel with a controller like the megasquirt would it be possible to cut out 4 of the pistons like the new hemi's do?

[Rolling_Thunder]

well...   that is a good question...    possibly...   all you would really have to do is not send a signal to the fuel injector and not send a spark to the cylinder....     

[dkn1997]

I am not a fan of the Projection system , we went through 4 controllers in a month the last one had no power but wouldn`t blow up so we couldn`t even get warranty

For someone like me who can tune a carb about as well as I can do brain surgery, the concept was good. But  the ecu went bad right away (bought old used system)  I was lucky enough to score an ECU of Ebay for 30 bucks and never had a problem with it again.  I ended up getting rid of it because I wanted to go faster and because I never liked the fact that you never really knew what the ECU was doing. 

[defiance]

well...   that is a good question...    possibly...   all you would really have to do is not send a signal to the fuel injector and not send a spark to the cylinder....     

Well, it's not that simple; valve action must be taken into account as well...  If it's not changed, the cylinder compression could cause too much load on the engine, reducing benefits drastically...  I'm thinking just locking exhaust cylinders open would be most effective, though I wonder if that would affect oxygen sensor readings?  (since you'd be pumping exhaust in and back out of the cylinders)...  I'd think probably not, but that would have to be considered...

Anyway, yeah, this is being discussed on the MS message boards, but I think the consensus is that it could possibly be used to control it, but upgrading the mechanics of an engine to do it would be much more difficult.

[original72]

i think someone should find a guy willing to mod and or supply manifolds for port injection and do it at a group buy price.... if i knew someone i would but......

[Chryco Psycho]

I have virtually everything in place to make EFI manifolds & fuel systems , just no funding to build the first one & prove it works 

[dkn1997]

If you could make a prepackaged system with a distributor, you could really fill a void and make some money.  It would have to be affordable and in my opinion, the eddy system is not affordable at 2500+dollars.  megasquirt ECU would probably be mandatory since it's real cheap and has most of the bells and whistles of the others.  What would be great is to have options, or better yet, have people give you their motor specs and size the tb and injectors accordingly.  I will stop dreaming now.....