B5 Bird on E-bay

[WINGIN IT]

Looking for opinions on what you guys think a good buying price for this bird :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180667754827&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

It was listed a few years back and last year.  High bids have ranged from $65K to low 80s .
Owner at the time  I looked at it 2 years ago was looking for six figures for the car.

Nice car, overall, condition wise - one quarter replaced, added tic-toc-tac.
Non-number's matching engine - but date code correct, stamped with VIN from dealer. Matching tranny.
Repro tag and window sticker, no buildsheet.
14" wheels .

This number's matching B5 auto on the column with A?C and original sheetmetal and a repaint bid to $99K just recently. Current asking price is $109K . 
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,80175.0.html

[BigBlockSam]

 

[hemi68charger]

   Like those 4-speed benches.............

[WINGIN IT]

  Like those 4-speed benches.............

Yeah me too 

[pettybird]

try to take corners in one and you'll change your mind.  at least you have a huge shifter to hold on to. 

[WINGIN IT]

try to take corners in one and you'll change your mind.  at least you have a huge shifter to hold on to. 

Do we not wear our seatbelt 

[hemi68charger]

try to take corners in one and you'll change your mind.  at least you have a huge shifter to hold on to.  

Well,,when I have fun with my winged wonder, I pretend I'm at Talladega or Daytona, not Riverside or Watkins-Glen...    

[nascarxx29]

I was reminded of this B5 car following this post owned by Zachary .Same car??

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,69012.0.html

[hemigeno]

Non-number's matching engine - but date code correct, stamped with VIN from dealer. Matching tranny.

OK, riddle me this...

If a car had its engine replaced (assumedly under warranty), the dealer would not have worried about getting a date-correct block to reinstall, would they?

"Date-correct engine" and "dealer-stamped VIN" are two things I would not expect to see on the same car -- unless the engine gave up the ghost just a few weeks after delivery (to the dealership, that is).

[hemi68charger]

Non-number's matching engine - but date code correct, stamped with VIN from dealer. Matching tranny.

OK, riddle me this...

If a car had its engine replaced (assumedly under warranty), the dealer would not have worried about getting a date-correct block to reinstall, would they?

"Date-correct engine" and "dealer-stamped VIN" are two things I would not expect to see on the same car -- unless the engine gave up the ghost just a few weeks after delivery (to the dealership, that is).

Geno,
The ONLY reason I could think of a dealership service department restamping the VIN on a replacement/warranty block would be that of the request by the customer for tracking purposes in case of theft... back then, there was no such thing as "number's matching" in the sense we use today in this hobby. I would think it would be 100% towards tracking down the motor in the event the vehicle was stolen......

[nascarxx29]

Looks up 1978-79 Mike Zachary  Henderson KY RM23UOA179768

[nascarxx29]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,72073.0.html

[WINGIN IT]

Appears to be the same vehicle.
Good info, thanks.

Anyone care to give a ballpark on the car in it's current state?

[moparstuart]

desirable color and 4 speed  maybe 100k ?

[hemigeno]

Geno,
The ONLY reason I could think of a dealership service department restamping the VIN on a replacement/warranty block would be that of the request by the customer for tracking purposes in case of theft... back then, there was no such thing as "number's matching" in the sense we use today in this hobby. I would think it would be 100% towards tracking down the motor in the event the vehicle was stolen......

Yeah, I understand all that.  I don't recall exactly where such instructions are given, but supposedly service replacement blocks were to be embossed with the car's VIN.  To this point the stories I've heard from dealership service dept. workers (mostly 2nd-hand, but still stories nonetheless) all say that they never took the time to do this.  Of course, the couple of stories I've heard represent a very small sampling of actual warranty replacements back then.

Nonetheless, I highly doubt that a dealership would have ever installed a "date correct" engine unless it failed VERY early in the car's life.  It could have happened, of course, but it doesn't seem likely.  Otherwise, Chrysler would have sent out a block (or shortblock engine assembly) dated somewhere close to when the claim was submitted. 

My point is, I find it a little hard to believe that it was the dealer that happened to stamp the VIN, AND that it was stamped on a "date correct" engine block.  Maybe I'm just too much of a conspiracy theorist, I dunno.

[WINGR]

  Like those 4-speed benches.............

Yeah me too 

Me three

[WINGIN IT]

  Like those 4-speed benches.............

Yeah me too 

Me three

Rub in there WINGR... scoopin' up the last B5 4spd that was "for sale"   

[WINGR]

Maybe the one that's for sale will end up in your garage, good luck.

[hemi68charger]

Geno,
The ONLY reason I could think of a dealership service department restamping the VIN on a replacement/warranty block would be that of the request by the customer for tracking purposes in case of theft... back then, there was no such thing as "number's matching" in the sense we use today in this hobby. I would think it would be 100% towards tracking down the motor in the event the vehicle was stolen......

Yeah, I understand all that.  I don't recall exactly where such instructions are given, but supposedly service replacement blocks were to be embossed with the car's VIN.  To this point the stories I've heard from dealership service dept. workers (mostly 2nd-hand, but still stories nonetheless) all say that they never took the time to do this.  Of course, the couple of stories I've heard represent a very small sampling of actual warranty replacements back then.

Nonetheless, I highly doubt that a dealership would have ever installed a "date correct" engine unless it failed VERY early in the car's life.  It could have happened, of course, but it doesn't seem likely.  Otherwise, Chrysler would have sent out a block (or shortblock engine assembly) dated somewhere close to when the claim was submitted. 

My point is, I find it a little hard to believe that it was the dealer that happened to stamp the VIN, AND that it was stamped on a "date correct" engine block.  Maybe I'm just too much of a conspiracy theorist, I dunno.

I 100% agree... Just stating the "what-if".......   

[pettybird]

try to take corners in one and you'll change your mind.  at least you have a huge shifter to hold on to. 

Do we not wear our seatbelt 

seat belts only work on left hand turns for the driver and right hand turns for the passenger!

[WINGIN IT]

Maybe the one that's for sale will end up in your garage, good luck.

Doesn't look like it was meant to be, unfortunately with this one.
But appreciate the optimistic reply.

[WINGIN IT]

try to take corners in one and you'll change your mind.  at least you have a huge shifter to hold on to. 

Do we not wear our seatbelt 

seat belts only work on left hand turns for the driver and right hand turns for the passenger!

Is that right..  
Guess those engineers didn't thunk out their design very well...

[WINGIN IT]

I was reminded of this B5 car following this post owned by Zachary .Same car??

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,69012.0.html

So based on the above previous thread, is the consensus, that both quarters were replaced, and the engine nor the tranny are original to the car?
Or did I not read that thread correctly?

Does anyone know if the original fender tag for this car is still around?

[Aero426]

The Zachary family had something approaching ten wing cars +/- at one time, quite a sight in the yard.  So I cannot say whether the car mentioned in the other thread is the one for sale now.    He had more than one blue Superbird.  

I don't remember if it is the tag or build sheet, but one of them is still around.   The current owner was not able to acquire it to reunite it with the car.  He could tell you which one it is.   I suspect it is an item that may be available for the right $$$.   

[WINGIN IT]

Everything is for sale for the right price, right?
Including this bird...
Unfortunately the "right" price is "wrong" for me...

[hemi68charger]

Everything is for sale for the right price, right?
Including this bird...
Unfortunately the "right" price is "wrong" for me...

Got anything to trade, that might work too to get you a winged car.........

[472 R/T SE]

Geno,
The ONLY reason I could think of a dealership service department restamping the VIN on a replacement/warranty block would be that of the request by the customer for tracking purposes in case of theft... back then, there was no such thing as "number's matching" in the sense we use today in this hobby. I would think it would be 100% towards tracking down the motor in the event the vehicle was stolen......

Yeah, I understand all that.  I don't recall exactly where such instructions are given, but supposedly service replacement blocks were to be embossed with the car's VIN.  To this point the stories I've heard from dealership service dept. workers (mostly 2nd-hand, but still stories nonetheless) all say that they never took the time to do this.  Of course, the couple of stories I've heard represent a very small sampling of actual warranty replacements back then.

Nonetheless, I highly doubt that a dealership would have ever installed a "date correct" engine unless it failed VERY early in the car's life.  It could have happened, of course, but it doesn't seem likely.  Otherwise, Chrysler would have sent out a block (or shortblock engine assembly) dated somewhere close to when the claim was submitted. 

My point is, I find it a little hard to believe that it was the dealer that happened to stamp the VIN, AND that it was stamped on a "date correct" engine block.  Maybe I'm just too much of a conspiracy theorist, I dunno.

Maybe someone went through the trouble to find a date coded block so they could stamp it & call it #'s matching not realizing it was the wrong font. 

How else can a date code correct motor with it's VIN not be considered #'s matching?  When the font's wrong or stamped incorrectly.  Now all of a sudden the dealer stamped it. 

[WINGIN IT]

Everything is for sale for the right price, right?
Including this bird...
Unfortunately the "right" price is "wrong" for me...

Got anything to trade, that might work too to get you a winged car.........

Believe me I've tried, every bird that comes up that's the first question  I ask .
Will keep pluggin' away... maybe some day...

[WINGIN IT]

Maybe someone went through the trouble to find a date coded block so they could stamp it & call it #'s matching not realizing it was the wrong font. 

How else can a date code correct motor with it's VIN not be considered #'s matching?  When the font's wrong or stamped incorrectly.  Now all of a sudden the dealer stamped it. 
[/quote]

Sounds plausible for sure.
Even more so if it is confirmed it's the bird that Willie's Daytona posted, which he states did not have any drivetrain...

[hemi68charger]

Everything is for sale for the right price, right?
Including this bird...
Unfortunately the "right" price is "wrong" for me...

Got anything to trade, that might work too to get you a winged car.........

Believe me I've tried, every bird that comes up that's the first question  I ask .
Will keep pluggin' away... maybe some day...

Well, if you know my story, then you know..... Never give up........

[hemigeno]

Maybe someone went through the trouble to find a date coded block so they could stamp it & call it #'s matching not realizing it was the wrong font.  

How else can a date code correct motor with it's VIN not be considered #'s matching?  When the font's wrong or stamped incorrectly.  Now all of a sudden the dealer stamped it.  

Yup, that's exactly how things look to me.  If (as may or may not be the case) the car did not have a drivetrain when previously sold, the whole dealer-stamped-VIN story holds even less water in my eyes than it did before.

As the research and knowledge in the hobby has increased over the years, some owners have undoubtedly discovered that their car's prior owner(s) weren't as honest as they wanted everyone to believe at the time.  VIN restamping does not happen in a vacuum - there is an intent to deceive almost every time.  Even when it's done with the "best of intentions", it can still bite a subsequent owner who doesn't get the real story when a prior owner comes down with a bad case of selective amnesia and/or conjures up a cover story like this.  In any event, it's fraud.

[nascarxx29]

looking over the ebay ad which mentions this particular car is Nascar Race Program Serial #1750.Translates to RM23UOA179768 at bottom of page in my #1920 list booklet.Like I suspected originally by its description.It is this car.As I originally thought.Was also aware Zachary had many other cars.But this one is confirmed ebay ad car. Know what your buying and its past origins whenever possible

I was reminded of this B5 car following this post owned by Zachary .Same car??
Attached post pictures and its history

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,69012.0.html

Nascar Race Program Serial #1750.

[WINGIN IT]

Thanks, I saw the link to that thread earlier in this thread, and wasn't sure it was the same car by the way the initial post read.  I PMd that member to see if he had some insight or history to add.

If it is indeed the same car as previously posted, and now has a non-matching drive-train and repro tag and no build sheet, along with the condition of the car ( quarters replaced, tac added ), how much do you think it effects the overall value of the car?

[Aero426]

It is easy to pick apart a car from the comfort of your living room.   Obviously the NOM engine is an issue.   Whether it occurred in 1970 or five years ago doesn't really matter.   It's still NOM.   The lack of the original tag or build sheet hurts some too.   You will find lots of Birds have had less than perfect histories.   On the other hand, it's still a real Bird in an attractive color and a 4-speed, which is NICE.  It also has a known history which is worth something.   It's also not represented as a loaded up rare option car.  So the lack of a sheet is kind of minimal except for bemoaning the fact it is not present.  So it doesn't take a hit like a car that just popped up from nowhere.   The change of quarter(s) doesn't bother me.   The addition of a tach is a non-issue.    What's it worth?    The market is tough right now.   It's still a buyers market.   I'd sense the value somewhere in the 80's.    But given what has been spent on it, that may not be enough money for the owner to let it go, if you know what I mean.  

[nascarxx29]

[nascarxx29]

The above article mentioned a Carl Crow restored that B5 superbird.In April 2000 a superbird popped up about 1 hour from me it was B5 I took my gold challenger to go see as seen in picture .Superbird owner at that time was a well known mopar/car body shop owner Ron Mule.Ron mentioned he got it from a Carl Crow.Also member 4 speed wing was trying to get this car off Ron .But I found him a orange car

[Aero426]

When Carl owned the car, it was a very nice looking machine.  I remember seeing it at Talladega in 1999.   

[WINGIN IT]

Thanks for the additional history Nascar.
Is there more to that article you posted?

It wasn't my intent to pick the car apart from my living room or otherwise ( I did go see the car in person previously).  Agreed, it's a very nice looking car.
Just trying to get opinions on a selling price based on all the current available information.

[nascarxx29]

No thats all of the article .And at this time all related info I came up with .

[WINGIN IT]

Ok thanks , appreciate all you've provided 

[WINGIN IT]

" ....  I'd sense the value somewhere in the 80's.    But given what has been spent on it, that may not be enough money for the owner to let it go, if you know what I mean.  "

Aero, given the current owner purchased the car  in 2000, after it was restored, he shouldn't have much else into it other than the purchase price and maintenance ( unless the motor had to be rebuilt or something).  

I'm sure someone here has info on what birds were going for around that time.