auto to 4 speed

[mopar0166]

I'm highly considering a 4 speed now instead of an TCI auto for my 69 GL and since I'm still on the fence i wanted to ask what everyone thought. 

Is it really worth the time to convert?

what are the common problems with this change?

What rear gears should i run with a 440 4 speed

Is there any engine balance issues switching to a 4 speed?

what might be the general cost to get all the parts to switch it over?

Current I'm running a small block and have been gearing up to do a big block swap this winter.  the shortblock has all forged parts, and the top end will be the edlebrock rpm performer.  The block was bored 30 over  and recently balanced.  Our realistic goal is around 500 hp and was going to go with a tci  super street fighter but have been persuaded to consider a 4 speed now. 

Very few generals had a four speed and id like mine to be a bit more unique.   

Thanks for reading and I look forward to you replies!!!!!   

[Troy]

It depends on what you want. It's not worth anything if you want an automatic... If you like shifting gears then there's no substitute. You'll see a slight decrease in friction through the drive train but you'll wear yourself out in traffic. One benefit over a "race" type automatic is that you'll only have neck-snapping shifts when you want them. An automatic with a high stall converter gets old in a hurry.

Common problems? None as long as you get all the right parts. Just make sure everything is matched. The 68-69 cars came with an 11" clutch, 143 tooth flywheel, and an iron bell housing. The clutch fork and z-bar (B-body) are specific to this setup. The pedals are specific to a B-body and I think the clutch rod has to match as well. Make sure you get a b-body tail housing on the trans and the correct shifter/handle/rods. The problem *after* you finish the conversion is "hooking up". If you run on the street you'll likely spin tires before anything breaks but power shifting on a track with sticky tires will break a lot of other parts on your car (rear ends mostly).

Gear would be the same as an automatic - both have a 1:1 final drive. The advantage of the 4-speed is that you don't need to worry so much about matching the rear gears to the converter and engine power band.

Does your 440 have a cast crank? If it's forged you don't need to do anything special but cast cranks require a weighted flywheel.

Parts can be expensive. You can buy a complete conversion kit from Brewers or Passon Performance for a bit over $4,500. If you want a console figure on spending another $1,200 or so. Many people also believe you need to install a Dana rear end as well (like the factory) so there goes another $1,200-2,000. If you have the time and resources to find all the stuff on your own you can save a lot of money (and/or cause yourself all sorts of heartache). A 23 spline transmission is cheaper than an 18 spline (so-called "Hemi") but should hold the power you're talking about on the street.

Troy

[mopar0166]

Thats great information!!!!!!!!  Are their problems after converting to manual that should be double check before start up? 

[Troy]

Assuming you installed everything correctly and filled it with the right fluid, no.

Troy

[mopar0166]

Sounds like a great way to go, but seems like a lot of parts hunting if you dont want to spend the big bucks on a converision kit.

[Cooter]

The parts to do the conversion is EXACTLY why you stated the obvious above..."Not many GL are 4speeds and I want to be unique"...Was this only if you can afford to be unique? Because if it is, then you better stick with the SB and Auto like everybody else with a GL...


My own GL is a 5-speed and love it. NOTHING beats a straight gear on the street for fun. Something bout downshifting and going sideways tends to make the stop light challenges more fun...

[Chatt69chgr]

In 1970 Mopar changed from the 11 inch clutch to the 10-1/2.  You will find the parts much easier to obtain and cheaper.  Also, a aluminum bell housing is available as a repop for this size.  I think the flywheel is a 130 tooth.  You say that the shortblock has all forged parts.  Is this a Mopar forged crank?  They used forged cranks up till 71 or so on everything including automatics.  Is your crank drilled and reamed for a pilot bushing?  Or just drilled?  Or neither.  You will have to deal with this issue.  Pilot roller or bushing bearings are available for the reamed case.  If drilled, then you can get a bearing that fits in the converter register on the rear of the crank and the tip of the transmission input shaft will just stick up inside the drilled area.  If neither, you can still use the bearing that sits in the converter register but you will have to cut the end off the trans input shaft.  If you car was auto then it won't have the piece that's welded to the left front frame rail for the ball stud to attach to that is on the left side of the Z-bar.  They are available as repops for you to weld on.  And the 23 spline transmissions are about 1/2 of what the 18 spline units are.  Like the 8-3/4 rear ends they won't handle the brute force of sticky burnouts. O/W, both should work fine.  Original 4-speeds with dana's either had 3.55's or 4.10's.  Even with 3.55's the engine rpm will be somewhat high when cruising on the interstate at 70 mph.  With 4.10's cruising at that speed would get old real fast.  The 4-speed engine and and flywheels were set up neutral balanced.  Make sure you use a neutral balanced flywheel and vibration damper.  Also, the secondaries on the carb are not usually vacuum advance on a manual.

[mopar0166]

The engine is a 68 440 with forged mopar crank, forged rods, and pistons

[mopar0166]

Great information guys, I'm loving reading all this.  I just think with how I drive my charger that a manual would hopefully be able to endure my street endued fun.  It'll rarely be on the track, I have been saying for 3 years that we would go just to get qtr mile times and it never happened. 

I may start to piece this together any other input would be greatly appreciated

[Bigun426]

If If you have a 5-6k budget a Tremic 5-speed from Keisler might be worth a look. It was a 5k investment 5 years ago for my 66 Charger. They offer the whole package ,transmission--bellhousing--flywheel--clutch kit--pedals--hydraulic clutch or Z Bar--speed-o-gear to match gear ratio--speedo cable--drive shaft. Since the trans is a is a top loader the shifter linkage is built into the trans no need for shifter linkage and in my case the auto floor console worked by adding a 4-speed top plate. They also offer a pistol grip shifter which makes it looks real serious.

[AKcharger]

Or just keep an eye out. I got everything for the swap save the "tunnel" and clutch assy for $2100...including a brand new console pistol grip :-) Hope to do the conversion this spring

[A383Wing]

yer gonna have to change rear end gears as well...what are you running for gears now?

[Troy]

yer gonna have to change rear end gears as well...what are you running for gears now?

Why would he have to change the rear gears? The only "issue" I've found when running a 2.76 is significantly shorter clutch life (have to feather it way too much to get the car rolling). Other than that, Mopar put everything from a 3.23 and (numerically) higher behind a 4-speed. The 383 4bbl cars had a 3.23 standard. Anything with a Dana had at least a 3.54.

Troy

[Chryco Psycho]

If you want a 4 spd there is simply no comparison , i will not buy a car with auto , I never learned how to drive an Auto !!
Auto never shift when you want them to , you want to down shift they overide you & wont shift , you wnat them to shift early they don't , you want them to shift late either they shift too late or early . You want to use the engine to brake , the converter unlocks & you coast . Drives me nutz
The worst part is everytime you go for the clutch pedal you face hits the windsheild , why to they make the Auto brake pedal 4' wide

[mauve66]

If you want a 4 spd there is simply no comparison , i will not buy a car with auto , I never learned how to drive an Auto !!
Auto never shift when you want them to , you want to down shift they overide you & wont shift , you wnat them to shift early they don't , you want them to shift late either they shift too late or early . You want to use the engine to brake , the converter unlocks & you coast . Drives me nutz
The worst part is everytime you go for the clutch pedal you face hits the windsheild , why to they make the Auto brake pedal 4' wide

an auto with a tranzgo shift kit and full time 1st gear capabilities doesn't do any of those things and you can still drive away from the drive through with a blizzard in one hand and her in the other

[lokalik]

not sure about 440 cranks, but i know that on my 70 383 auto when i changed to a four spd tne tranny would not mate up to the bell hsg. the hole for the input shaft on a  auto crank is not as deep as the hole on a four spd crank. iirc there was about a 1/2 inch difference between hole depth and shaft lenght. had to cut the end of the input shaft.  hope this helps. what is a GL?

[mauve66]

general lee

[Challenger340]

All depends what you want ?

If you want a 4 gear and enjoy driving one, with little or no Strip driving, then go for it.

Just my 2 cents, no wars wanted, IMO,
but if you are looking for "quickest" 1/4 miles times if you ever get to a Track between Street sojourns.
I don't think you'll get much arguement from anybody who actually has done laps at a Track, the Auto/High Stall is FAR quicker than an 833 4 spd at 500hp,
with Far less parts proliferation & Breakage.

I dunno how many times over the years, I`ve built literally dozens of 500hp plus BB Mopar Engines for Customers, and had this same conversation.
The Guys who enjoy actually flogging their Cars at the Track fairly regularily as a distraction from Street driving, invariably ALWAYS, end up going Automatic eventually,
Just faster, with less breakage. $$

833 sticks are cool to look at ? YES !
833's are Fun to drive ? YES !
833's are quicker ? resounding NO !

[bull]

You're probably right, but then I've never heard of anyone swapping out a 4 speed for an auto.

Ronnie Sox seemed to do ok with a manual. He actually got slower when he tried an automatic.

[mopar0166]

i tend to like to manually shift my auto as well, wont really have to majke the decision till the is winter but thiers no one better to ask the the guys here.  Thanks again for all you input

[Troy]

You're probably right, but then I've never heard of anyone swapping out a 4 speed for an auto.

Ronnie Sox seemed to do ok with a manual. He actually got slower when he tried an automatic.

Ronnie Sox also had a big budget and a few mechanics. Power shifting that quick will eat parts like you wouldn't believe! The rest of us normal schmucks need the thing to last for a few years so we can make it to Dairy Queen or Sonic on cruise night.

Troy

[mauve66]

You're probably right, but then I've never heard of anyone swapping out a 4 speed for an auto.

Ronnie Sox seemed to do ok with a manual. He actually got slower when he tried an automatic.

Ronnie Sox also had a big budget and a few mechanics. Power shifting that quick will eat parts like you wouldn't believe! The rest of us normal schmucks need the thing to last for a few years so we can make it to Dairy Queen or Sonic on cruise night.

Troy

AGAIN TROY IS RIGHT, (i gotta follow this guys thinking more often )
AND that really was POWER SHIFTING, cutting off every other or third tooth, something no one would do to a car that had to go down the street due to the fact that you would just kill the flywheel
yes sticks can be fun , even at the track, but if you have to drive that puppy home and pick up burgers for the kids on the way, you want every damn tooth that flywheel has

[Rolling_Thunder]

I like manual transmissions....    auto are...    ahem...     boring.     

[Cooter]

My experience is, if your car has enough balls, you need not power shift the trans. only time I personally saw ANY benefit from powershifting a manual was with the short stroke 302 Ford 5.0 mustangs. You had to keep the R's up or you lose. A 500 C.I. engine shouldn't have to be powershifted to get it done.


I've got a buddy that doesn't hurt trans' and shifts lightening quick...Bap,Bap,Bap and it's over before you know it. All stock 833....
Now, if you got some .800 Lift, roller cammed, low compression small block, you might NEED to power shift, but with 700 HP, it isn't a concern.

[bull]

You're probably right, but then I've never heard of anyone swapping out a 4 speed for an auto.

Ronnie Sox seemed to do ok with a manual. He actually got slower when he tried an automatic.

Ronnie Sox also had a big budget and a few mechanics. Power shifting that quick will eat parts like you wouldn't believe! The rest of us normal schmucks need the thing to last for a few years so we can make it to Dairy Queen or Sonic on cruise night.

Troy

AGAIN TROY IS RIGHT, (i gotta follow this guys thinking more often )
AND that really was POWER SHIFTING, cutting off every other or third tooth, something no one would do to a car that had to go down the street due to the fact that you would just kill the flywheel
yes sticks can be fun , even at the track, but if you have to drive that puppy home and pick up burgers for the kids on the way, you want every damn tooth that flywheel has

First off, please stop brown-nosing. It's embarrassing. Second, saying drag racers break stuff is like saying football players sweat. It's not uncommon for them to get only a few runs out of a $40k engine... or a $15k automatic transmission. All the pros have big budgets and mechanics, that's the name of the game, but it didn't sound to me like this guy was going that direction. My point was that if a guy knows how to drive a four speed (like Sox) it really doesn't matter. Either way gobs of money is going to get spent fixing broken parts on one thing or another. I doubt those who ran against Sox using automatics were able to brag much about how much less money they spent than he.

[Challenger340]

All I know is,
I've had this same conversation about a Hundred times with Customers over the years ?
and invariably,
any of the Guys that actually do laps at the track with an 833, ALWAYS, end up switching to an Auto/High Stall at some later point,
with,
2 great BENEFITS, they go FASTER with quicker E.T.'s, and save MONEY and TIME not having to repair their junk.(Thats 3, sorry)

Comparing what Ronnie Sox did 40 years ago with an 833 4 gear,
against,
TODAYS Convertor Technology, and Torque multiplication Factors on a decent brand Torque Convertor ?
Sorry, not much of an argument, nuff said....

Drive whatever your happy with,
just don't think it's quicker OK ?

[440]

My GL is a A833 4 Speed. Troy is right that traffic will wear you out, rumpety cams and a heavy clutch make for a painful exercise. Steep hills can also be a bit of a pain. Shifting gears is fun but like Challenger340 says, autos are quicker and in my opinion easier on drive line components. The ford powerglide is only 2 speed and a popular choice for drag racers...

Make sure you cut the clutch linkage hole in the firewall in the correct spot.    

Most GL's were auto's anyways and if your keeping the car reasonably authentic I doubt you'd be trying to extract every 10th out of it. The General Lee is a fun car and a 4 speed would make it more fun in my opinion.

You can always leave it auto and make shifting noises if you like and save bucket loads of cash  

[mopar0166]

Thanks, it'll be part of the winter projects this year along with dropping in the 440

[Chryco Psycho]

somehow it is assumed that a 4 spd will break with abuse [which is true as you really can break anything with abuse]
But Autos & converters never fail LOL ...... my experience is Autos & converters fail as well especially racing them 
Maybe a Lenco is a better option , you get to shift even though it is essentially an automatic design & it will take some killer abuse / use

[idahogrumpy]

My 73 Charger was a factory big block 4 speed car and now has an automatic.
I broke (twisted) two drive line input yokes, 1- 8 3/4 rear end, not to mention the twist that the body took on launch. Besides that my neck was real sore after a day at the drags! Yes my car is raced with sticky tires on a some what regular basis. My car is also quicker and more fun for me to drive now. It has a full manual valve body automatic.

I saved all of the four speed stuff for the next owner to learn from.
To me it's just not worth trouble and expense to go to a 4 speed.

Have fun,
Grumpy 

[Cooter]

The ford powerglide is only 2 speed and a popular choice for drag racers...

Hmmmmm, I coulda swore that Chevy made the "Powerglide" trans...

Comparing what Ronnie Sox did 40 years ago with an 833 4 gear,
against,
TODAYS Convertor Technology, and Torque multiplication Factors on a decent brand Torque Convertor ?
Sorry, not much of an argument, nuff said....

If you split hairs all the way down to thousandths of a second, then the auto wins hands down...All I know is, when the 123 cars are done, and you hear the "Gear jammer" class get called to the line, for some reason almost everybody gets up out their seats and hangs their fingers in the fence to see those 4-gear cars "tote the mail"...

[bull]

All I know is, when the 123 cars are done, and you hear the "Gear jammer" class get called to the line, for some reason almost everybody gets up out their seats and hangs their fingers in the fence to see those 4-gear cars "tote the mail"...

Probably because they're seeing some actual skill at work instead of just a gas pedal getting mashed to the floor.

[440]

The ford powerglide is only 2 speed and a popular choice for drag racers...

Hmmmmm, I coulda swore that Chevy made the "Powerglide" trans...

Yes Cooter, it was one of those brain fade moments    lol