Sooooo... What was the purpose of fender scoops...? ***VOTE in added Poll***

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Yeap, George is an awesome guy. Had the privilege of chatting with him on pit row back in '04 at Talladega. What's mentioned here comes straight from the horses mouth and IS the only LOGICAL explanation. Tire clearance, tire clearance, tire clearance....................... That's my final answer.......  Next........  

 

I firmly believe the 'Birds don't have the holes cut out of the fenders just because...... they could get away without the mod as long as the scoop was there. Additional mod's equal additional money....

More likely due to mud & debris complaints...  

[dodgedarren]

Because they look cool??? I thought that was the reason for everything Dodge related.

[Aero426]

The tire would hit the inside of the fender before the scoop would come into play.

Even with correct 1970 tires, they would likely hit the outside of the fenders before the scoop would be an issue.

[Aero426]

Inside edge of fender

[xs29j8Bullitt]

The tire would hit the inside of the fender before the scoop would come into play.

Even with correct 1970 tires, they would likely hit the outside of the fenders before the scoop would be an issue.

    Good pic! 

[xs29j8Bullitt]

My understanding is tire clearance, simple................

If you look at the test mule this is clearly not the purpose of the scoops. I'm on an iPad so I can't post a pic - if someone has the pic of the mule post it.

Dane

Here you go...

[hemi68charger]

My understanding is tire clearance, simple................

If you look at the test mule this is clearly not the purpose of the scoops. I'm on an iPad so I can't post a pic - if someone has the pic of the mule post it.

Dane

Here you go...

These pictures of a car that looks like it's standing still without any downforce. As George eluded to, the right side front is the primary load bearing corner, hence the deflection/compression of the car down on the suspension.

Not sure I understand why there's a controversy about all this, especially when Mr. Wallace mentions this and it's in the original testing literature about the top of the tire hitting the fender creating friction. If it was for ventilation, wouldn't the Fords and Mercury's have it too? I'm sure the downforce on the front of the Dodge and Plymouth with the nose, at Superspeedways, was much greater than the Talladegas and Spoilers.

I'll go sit in my corner now...........

[WINGIN IT]

The tire would hit the inside of the fender before the scoop would come into play.

Even with correct 1970 tires, they would likely hit the outside of the fenders before the scoop would be an issue.

    Good pic! 

Wrong angle though. Would need to see it more straight on to see if the tire protrudes to the edge of the fender.

[WINGIN IT]

This topic seems to come up from time to time, but always muddled in controversy.
After reading the post it looks like one designed intention also had another.

My question is , has anyon ever asked the MYTHBUSTERS to test this?   
I'm sure there is a few board members who wouldn't mind using there Daytonas as test mules .
(Troy you reading this,    )

They could test both the drag and the tire hitting the fender issues, and in the end , they would be put to rest.  Not to mention getting the old Dodges back in the spotlight 

[hemi68charger]

This topic seems to come up from time to time, but always muddled in controversy.
After reading the post it looks like one designed intention also had another.

My question is , has anyon ever asked the MYTHBUSTERS to test this?   
I'm sure there is a few board members who wouldn't mind using there Daytonas as test mules .
(Troy you reading this,    )

They could test both the drag and the tire hitting the fender issues, and in the end , they would be put to rest.  Not to mention getting the old Dodges back in the spotlight 

I'm sure I'm not the only wingcar owner who's felt it, but at 100+ mph out of turn 2 going down the backstretch hitting 125mph, I could feel my car squating. I can ONLY imagine what the downforce is like at nearly 200 mph in a real race Daytona. The tire wearing/touching problem probably isn't as apparent at tracks like Bristol and Rockingham..

[C5X DAYTONA]

This topic seems to come up from time to time, but always muddled in controversy.
After reading the post it looks like one designed intention also had another.

My question is , has anyon ever asked the MYTHBUSTERS to test this?   
I'm sure there is a few board members who wouldn't mind using there Daytonas as test mules .
(Troy you reading this,    )

They could test both the drag and the tire hitting the fender issues, and in the end , they would be put to rest.  Not to mention getting the old Dodges back in the spotlight 

They can use my Daytona in a second.      But with todays way better shock technology they will hot have this problem of the tire hitting.   

[C5X DAYTONA]

Here is the proper way to clear the tire.   Notice the seamless fender to scoop.  

[Arnie Cunningham]

Just a question - does anyone know how much the race tires distorted at speed.  Sitting still, the tire clearly would not fit in the scoop but at 180 mph the top of the tire should be significantly narrower due to centripetal/centrifugal forces.  It should stretch the same way top fuel slicks do only not as dramatically.

[Daytona Guy]

All this has been very interesting to me. I still hold to my understanding that they are for venting and here is why... my 2 cents...

If a tire is traveling that far to the point of rubbing "the top fender" (in the corners) the adjustment would be made in the suspension, not by accommodating the problem by cutting holes in the fender. If there is that much down force (I believe there was) it would not be addressed by altering the fender. The suspension would be set up for those speeds and down forces. Look at the suspension – it does not travel that for. They have stops in the suspension before it reaches that point, on the lower control arm. Simply look at the geometry of the suspension.



I would argue that the "bubble" does not refer to the fender scoops, but is referring to "extra" bulge or flair they gave the fenders of the Daytona (the race car version) for "tire and wheel" clearance, as long as it was not too drastic or it would affect the aerodynamics of the car.

Notice the "exhausters" or "vents" are referring to the fender scoops IMHO.





Look at that tire (I know it is turning) but I do not see that tire hitting the top of the fender, do you? Also, if it could reach that far, it would be too close to exposed sharp steel. (I just don't buy it - not yet that is.

Notice on the test mule exhausters?  You do not leave that narrow of raw sharp cut steel exposed to a tire that can reach that far and shred it at high speeds. Look at how narrow this is? You are talking 4" wide at that center with exposed edges.



Dane

[Daytona Guy]

Paragraph continued...   Note the creation of a blister on top of the fender and cutting away part of the hood.   This 68 1/2 car was extremely low. 

This piece of the story is fact, not some conspiracy theory. 

Like I said, the correction, or the answer to the problem, is in the suspension - You do not want your tire to travel that far - it will through your car around. Notice that the answer was in a better torsion par.

If the tire rubbing theory was true then there would be a hood exhauster too, because it was rubbing the hood too. There is not. Notice that they cut away the lip (flange) of the fender and Hood,  because it would have slit the tire. Notice on the Daytona's the flange is still there, meaning, they did not worry about the tire traveling that far.

The more air you let out the top of a car keeps it from getting chewed up underneath. Not a huge deal, but every little bit helps.  3%

[Aero426]

This topic seems to come up from time to time, but always muddled in controversy.
After reading the post it looks like one designed intention also had another.

My question is , has anyon ever asked the MYTHBUSTERS to test this?   
I'm sure there is a few board members who wouldn't mind using there Daytonas as test mules .
(Troy you reading this,    )

They could test both the drag and the tire hitting the fender issues, and in the end , they would be put to rest.  Not to mention getting the old Dodges back in the spotlight 

I'm sure I'm not the only wingcar owner who's felt it, but at 100+ mph out of turn 2 going down the backstretch hitting 125mph, I could feel my car squating. I can ONLY imagine what the downforce is like at nearly 200 mph in a real race Daytona. The tire wearing/touching problem probably isn't as apparent at tracks like Bristol and Rockingham..

Forget Mythbusters.   For $800 you can take your car to Aerodyn in Charlotte and run it in the tunnel.   You can determine what Romberg said that air goes IN to the scoops, not out.    Of course Troy you will need to cut open your scoops to race spec so the test is relevant.   
Because of the 36 degree banking, Bristol has tire loads much like Daytona and Talladega.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Doug - have you compared under-carriage to pavement clearance, exhaust to pavement, spoiler, etc to tire to fender top clearance?... What would contact first?  Looks kinda close on the RM car...

[C5X DAYTONA]

This topic seems to come up from time to time, but always muddled in controversy.
After reading the post it looks like one designed intention also had another.

My question is , has anyon ever asked the MYTHBUSTERS to test this?  
I'm sure there is a few board members who wouldn't mind using there Daytonas as test mules .
(Troy you reading this,    )

They could test both the drag and the tire hitting the fender issues, and in the end , they would be put to rest.  Not to mention getting the old Dodges back in the spotlight  

I'm sure I'm not the only wingcar owner who's felt it, but at 100+ mph out of turn 2 going down the backstretch hitting 125mph, I could feel my car squating. I can ONLY imagine what the downforce is like at nearly 200 mph in a real race Daytona. The tire wearing/touching problem probably isn't as apparent at tracks like Bristol and Rockingham..

Forget Mythbusters.   For $800 you can take your car to Aerodyn in Charlotte and run it in the tunnel.   You can determine what Romberg said that air goes IN to the scoops, not out.    Of course Troy you will need to cut open your scoops to race spec so the test is relevant.    
Because of the 36 degree banking, Bristol has tire loads much like Daytona and Talladega.

Interesting,  The tire being so close to the vent at 200+ mph would suck in the air?    I missed that day in school.   Awesome and I get it.    I guess the conspiracy people are right.  But in the wrong direction...            Why modify the suspension when the scoop fixed the minor problem rather easy and by Grand National Rules,  It was legal.    My point is all the Chrysler guys say the same thing.  "They needed the extra clearance on the RF."   The venting of the wheel well (in either direction) is just a bonus.   And if it was just going to be a vent why didn't they just louver the fender.   That is cheaper than putting on a scoop.   Sorry to all the Thomas's but there is nobody else to ask but the guys from Chrysler and they have spoken about this many times and never flip flopped.     We could build another car and all that cool stuff.   But trying to find those Oriflow in new working order is going to be a challenge.        

[C5X DAYTONA]

Doug - have you compared under-carriage to pavement clearance, exhaust to pavement, spoiler, etc to tire to fender top clearance?... What would contact first?  Looks kinda close on the RM car...

   Come on now.  The bottom picture looks like a street car with stickers..

[Aero426]

Yes, to compare anything using the modern McCluskey car isn't relevant because it's a tribute built from a street '70 Coronet.      It is actually raced, but has nothing to do with a Nichels type car. 

Back to your question.    Car #7 probably would not pass tech as the current distance from oil pan to ground is 3.75" and should be 4" minimum.    Bellhousing is even a little closer yet.  So the front end needs to be raised a little.

The first challenge of tire clearance is the inner fender and HOOD.  Look at the pic I posted this morning of the tire sticking well beyond the inside of the fender.   In fact the hood sticks down a solid one inch below the edge of the fender.    The fender has a 3/8" piece of round bar stock to reinforce the inside edge where the normal mounting surface was cut away.   From the inside edge of the tire to the hood is no more than 3" clearance. 

[Aero426]

Not only can you test your car at Aerodyn, but Romberg himself will probably show up to check it out.   You can present all your fender scoop conspiracy theories face to face!

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Doug - have you compared under-carriage to pavement clearance, exhaust to pavement, spoiler, etc to tire to fender top clearance?... What would contact first?  Looks kinda close on the RM car...

   Come on now.  The bottom picture looks like a street car with stickers..

Yes, a replica car... used the pic because the orientation was similar to racing pic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RogerMcCluskey1970PlymouthSuperbird.jpg

http://www.onlyclassics.com/p1056.jpg

[Aero426]

On the day that Baker set the record at Talladega,  they had trouble with the tire hitting the hood.   There are photos showing the hood with no modification on this day, and later photos the same day showing where they "clearanced" the underside edge (see arrow).    Greg Kwiatowski says you can see the ball peen hammer marks on the underside of the hood today. 

[Aero426]

Another photo.  Just below Fred Schrandt's glasses (black jacket) you can clearly see where they field modified the hood to clear the RF tar.

[Aero426]

Tell me a bedtime story about the fender scoops Uncle Doug...

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away, Greg Kwiatkowski brought the original Daytona drag studies (the one posted above with the 3% drag statement) to John Pointer one day.   Pointer looked and admitted it was in his own writing.  He asked, "Where did you get THAT?" (as if Greg stumbled upon a secret document) Greg told him it was from Larry Rathgeb's files. When Greg pointed it out that the 'exhausters' helped with a 3% drag reduction, Pointer smiled slightly, winked and stated, "Those were the numbers we got."   Now, this was before the car hit the track!  Also, when the car finally hit Chelsea, being a 4.77 mile track was easier on the car in the corners than Daytona, for example.  Greg says, "So, right there tells me the 3% drag reduction was the primary goal, and any perceived benefit for tire clearance was secondary at best."    

Greg continues "That info, written by John Pointer prior to the car turning a race lap, is the smoking gun, as we say.  The fact that HE WROTE IT, "exhausters" are a 3% drag reduction, it came from wind tunnel studies as opposed to track information and that it was part of the recommended "Daytona" package tell me that  the reason for the scoops is DRAG REDUCTION.     This shouldn't be so hard to believe when it is original vintage documentation, and the writer of it confirmed it."    

Greg says "I give the Daytona team credit for keeping quiet all these years and sticking to their story! I especially like the old story John still tells that he made sure the scoops "did nothing"!     What else could they say??"