A little back story on this. I built this 440 over 10 years ago and put it in my 1974 Charger. It has always ran well, I've driven it hundreds of miles at a time, never gets hot, never misses a beat, and has never been apart since it was built. I ran it down the 1/4 several years ago with 3:23 gears and ran in the 13:80 range very consistently. I have zero complaints, but now I'm bored with it and would like some opinions on how to get some more power out of it. Specs as follows;
76 440 block bored .30
balanced rotating assembly
10:1 hypereutectic pistons
Edelbrock 84cc heads
Crane Gold Roller rockers
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
Speed Demon vac secondary 750 carb
Comp Xtreme Energy 284H
.507/.510 lift, 110° LS/106°CL, 284/296, 240/246, .338/.340
Recurved stock style dist, 32 degrees all in at 2000 RPM
MSD 6AL ignition box
Hooker 1 7/8 full length headers
Coan built 727 w/manual valve body 2800-3000 stall.
I have since changed to a 3:55 gear and tuned the carb with a wide band 02.
Runs better than ever, but I still have some issues with the carb.
I got a great deal on a 850 Mighty Demon mechanical secondary, but I won't be able
to tinker with that until spring. Should I step up to a larger cam also?
I am a bit concerned about breaking in another cam and have considered a roller,
but the expense is turning me off.
Sorry it's so long, but wanted to tell the whole story.
What do you think, you won't hurt my feelings!!
what kind of exhaust system ? & might need a little more timing, that cam is pretty big, I dont think you need a cam change. also what is the elevation at the trac you run. & what was the mph
Quote from: cdr on February 10, 2016, 08:35:40 PM
what kind of exhaust system ? & might need a little more timing, that cam is pretty big, I dont think you need a cam change. also what is the elevation at the trac you run.
3 in with flowmasters, Northern Indiana is around 760 ft I believe.
I have played with the timing some, but I end up getting detonation if I give it much more. I think its around 12 degrees at idle with the vacuum advance plugged.
what was the mph? this is going to start a fight but get some of the welded dyno max 3 in mufflers, they are straight through design, flow masters suck in my opinion, and proof at the trac.
Quote from: cdr on February 10, 2016, 08:45:22 PM
what was the mph? this is going to start a fight but get some of the welded dyno max 3 in mufflers, they are straight through design, flow masters suck in my opinion, and proof at the trac.
I think it was just over 100mph. Mufflers didn't have any effect since I have electric cutouts. I usually run around with them open 90% of the time anyway, just ask my neighbors, and their neighbors, lol.
have you checked to make sure when you mash the pedal the carb is at wide open ?
What are you willing to sacrifice "to get some more power out of it."? Right now you bored but have "zero complaints".
Do you know the cylinder pressure? If not, can you measure it and get back to us?
That's a pretty nice set up looks like to me, 528 hemi would be an upgrade!!! LOL. Wish I could point you in an upward direction but what you got there seems to be a nice combo....
I'm no expert, but if you're only hitting 100 mph in the 1/4 mile with all those parts, something is wrong. Hell, my stock R/T back in '68 could meet or beat that. Did you do the work? Was the cam degreed? Just seems that you should be at about 105 or better. As others have asked, do you know what cylinder pressure you have?
Quote from: RECHRGD on February 13, 2016, 12:38:11 PM
........if you're only hitting 100 mph in the 1/4 mile with all those parts, something is wrong. Hell, my stock R/T back in '68 could meet or beat that......
A little harsh (coming from me - right :lol:) But I was thinking the same and thought that maybe the cylinder pressure could give us some in-site before we start going in the inevitable 500 different directions on what to fix.
I do not know what the cylinder pressure is. It's in storage and I'm not able to mess with it right now. The machine shop installed the cam, but I put the rest of it together. I think it should run better than it does too. Appreciate the help.
Quote from: 69wannabe on February 13, 2016, 11:45:23 AM
That's a pretty nice set up looks like to me, 528 hemi would be an upgrade!!! LOL. Wish I could point you in an upward direction but what you got there seems to be a nice combo....
Right?! Lol
76 440 block bored .30
balanced rotating assembly
10:1 hypereutectic pistons
Edelbrock 84cc heads
Crane Gold Roller rockers
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
Speed Demon vac secondary 750 carb
Comp Xtreme Energy 284H
.507/.510 lift, 110° LS/106°CL, 284/296, 240/246, .338/.340
Recurved stock style dist, 32 degrees all in at 2000 RPM
MSD 6AL ignition box
Hooker 1 7/8 full length headers
Coan built 727 w/manual valve body 2800-3000 stall.
I am really curious about "slightly above 100 mph" in the 1/4 mile with that combination ? Unless it was about "10 mph" above 100 in the 1/4 ?
No offense intended,
But any way you could get the ACTUAL Piston Part # for that supposed "10:1 Hypereutectic" used ?
I think it was 101 mph. I'd have to look for the receipt, when I had it built I told the shop that is the compression ratio I wanted. I know there are a lot of variables that go into it, but it should be somewhere close. No offense, I'm the one that asked, lol.
looks like some parts of my build Hyper pistons are probably Keith black??? and 84cc chamber heads eddy heads RPM specifically probably since back then eddy had 2 heads 84 and 88cc.
Its probably lower than 10 to 1....
Looks like a little more initial timimg would help, maybe around 14 to 16 BTDC. I can't figure out why you can't get a little more timing out of it. Looks like you should be able to get about 34 to 36 total timing out of it with the eddy heads but I may be wrong.
That engine, even with 8:1 pistons and 30 degrees of timing should run more then 101 mph at 1000 feet air.....
I know it's crazy but I have seen some cars with built up engines that just didn't perform as intended and looked alot like this set up then you have a car built very mild that runs way better than it should. It's hard to explain really but i'm sure as car guy's most know what I am saying.
I think they were speed pro Pistons. I've tried messing with the timing, but I always have to back it off as I end up getting detonation. I've just always assumed I should have went with more cam and more carb. I remember that the pistons did come right up to the deck.
Looking at the combo the thing that stands out most is the 750 vac carb. If it's detonating with 10:1 and closed chamber heads the problem is more than likely a fuel delivery issue. I bet it's going waaaay lean at WOT and hurting trap speed. :P
Ron
Here is Doug's car - a real life, low budget deal to put your stuff in perspective:
1968 Charger
Weight w/ driver 3700
Automatic, 2400 rpm stall converter
4.10 gear
P275 60 15s
Home ported 906s
Hemi Grind cam (284/.474)
Factory stamped steel rockers
8.5:1 CR using low compression 850 g. TRW slugs
CH4B intake with a Carter 750 cfm
1 ¾" headers and 2 ½" exhaust system
12.90s at 106 with a 1.9 - 60ft.
Your stuff will be 300 or 400 lbs heavier I would guess which would shift his number 3 or 4 ths, and 3 or 4 mph closer to yours, making the numbers not that much different. But the flip side is that you should be making considerable more power than Doug with your CR, intake, cam and heads, like 60 to 80 hp.
I picked this example because the carb is the same as yours (probably smaller in real numbers). I have more data on a combo very similar to yours (9.5: CR, cam like yours, with 915 heads that flow 240 cfm (still less than yours) and about 4000 lbs), and he was running about 112 mph deep into the 12s, with 2.0+ 60 ft times. He was running a 6 bbl. If we put Your intake and carb on this car, it would still run 110 mph
Thanks again for the input. Wow, a whole sec quicker. It's always ran very rich according to my wide band O2. I leaned the primaries, and had to richen the secondaries. But it has a big lean spot going to wot at cruise. I think the 850 double pump will cover that, ha!
:flush: you are talking about swapping carbs before fixing your engine... 13.8 in a 3800 lb car is about 280 flywheel hp. 101 mph in the same weight is about 300. You have a problem.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on February 16, 2016, 11:20:13 PM
:flush: you are talking about swapping carbs before fixing your engine... 13.8 in a 3800 lb car is about 280 flywheel hp. 101 mph in the same weight is about 300. You have a problem.
Tough crowd.
At least the OP cares enough about power and performance to take the car to the track. If he gives us cylinder pressure data, we will have more worthwhile information than we ever get here. If he could get back to the track this spring and spend a day flogging the car there, and cylinder pressure data, we can get him well to the 12s, motor alone, I'm sure.
:popcrn: :cheers:
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on February 16, 2016, 11:20:13 PM
:flush: you are talking about swapping carbs before fixing your engine... 13.8 in a 3800 lb car is about 280 flywheel hp. 101 mph in the same weight is about 300. You have a problem.
Yeah, I know there is a problem, that's why I'm asking.
Quote from: BSB67 on February 17, 2016, 06:48:13 AM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on February 16, 2016, 11:20:13 PM
:flush: you are talking about swapping carbs before fixing your engine... 13.8 in a 3800 lb car is about 280 flywheel hp. 101 mph in the same weight is about 300. You have a problem.
Tough crowd.
At least the OP cares enough about power and performance to take the car to the track. If he gives us cylinder pressure data, we will have more worthwhile information than we ever get here. If he could get back to the track this spring and spend a day flogging the car there, and cylinder pressure data, we can get him well to the 12s, motor alone, I'm sure.
I'm hoping the carb will wake it up. Definitely wanting to get it back to the track. Thank you for your help. The car is stored about an hour away, just need to find the time to get this info!!
Quote from: BSB67 on February 17, 2016, 06:48:13 AM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on February 16, 2016, 11:20:13 PM
:flush: you are talking about swapping carbs before fixing your engine... 13.8 in a 3800 lb car is about 280 flywheel hp. 101 mph in the same weight is about 300. You have a problem.
Tough crowd.
At least the OP cares enough about power and performance to take the car to the track. If he gives us cylinder pressure data, we will have more worthwhile information than we ever get here. If he could get back to the track this spring and spend a day flogging the car there, and cylinder pressure data, we can get him well to the 12s, motor alone, I'm sure.
Tough crowd? Lol, you are one to talk. :cheers:
If I wanted to read a pissing match, I would have posted this on Moparts. If you don't have something constructive, or some sort of advice, just don't comment. It's that easy.
Quote from: thrillbilly on February 17, 2016, 05:36:13 PM
If I wanted to read a pissing match, I would have posted this on Moparts. If you don't have something constructive, or some sort of advice, just don't comment. It's that easy.
Ouch. With an attitude like that, good luck with your car. Im sure going from the 750 to the 850 carb will give you the 100+ hp you are lacking on that setup. Im out.
And for the record, there is no pissing match, bsb67 has a history of coming off harsh as well when it comes to rhetorical questions and it was a joking nod to him.
Oh no, please don't go...... ::)
What was that you said about moparts? Why dont YOU get back on topic instead of starting a pissing match in your own thread before the rest of the guys on here that can help you turn their backs as well.
You said you were out, so please don't comment anymore. I really don't need you to tell me for the 5th time what I already know.
I said i wasnt going to help anymore. You lost that. I can comment on whatever pleases me. What exactly do you know again? No part numbers, no data, did you ever find the receipts from the build? You said all the machine shop did was install the cam for you so you should have all the answers to the questions that were asked by others. You want tough, you want harsh. Fine.
News flash for you- The others asked for cranking compression numbers because its pretty clear that the engine you presented in your origonal post is not what you built/paid for. We see it here all the time. Do some quick forum reading and you will see countless questions almost identical to yours and it usually ends up the same, then the OP decides to not take the advice and do what they want anyway and complain that it still doesnt run right/fast enough.
There are 2 scenarios possible here. 1st is you have the exact engine described in your 1st post and something is drastically wrong causing it to run so poorly at 101 mph but most likely you have an 8:1 bottom end with aluminum heads stuck on it making the problems worse. Lots of simple questions were asked that you couldnt answer a single one. Then you say that you are going to slap an 850 on it to fix the problem. De-ja-vu. Over and over and over again. So yep, you pissed me off and its clear you dont care nor want my advice and that doesnt hurt my feelings one bit. My cars all run just fine. Try not to piss off the other gurus on this site if you have any hopes of figuring out your engine.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,34656.msg377750.html#msg377750
In 2007 you asked about detonation and leaning out. Checking fuel pressure was brought up by ron and another member. Its now 2016 and you still have the same problem and the same question by ron again was asked about fuel pressure. I rest my case with you. If you want help, great, but take the advice you asked for and answer the questions.
Wow, impressive tantrum bud. Maybe follow your own advice and read what I said. The car is in storage, with all the paperwork for the engine. It's an hour and a half away, I haven't had time to get it. i just wish I was as smart as you so I didn't have to ask all these annoying questions. Oh please forgive me great guru, give me a break dude.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on February 17, 2016, 09:18:10 PM
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,34656.msg377750.html#msg377750
In 2007 you asked about detonation and leaning out. Checking fuel pressure was brought up by ron and another member. Its now 2016 and you still have the same problem and the same question by ron again was asked about fuel pressure. I rest my case with you. If you want help, great, but take the advice you asked for and answer the questions.
Right, I've been driving it around for 9 years with detonation? I'm guessing I wouldn't have any Pistons left.
The car has been in storage for 9 years? You missed the entire point. A 10:1 aluminum headed 440 should not be pinging at 34 degrees of timing. You came here and asked for help 9 years ago and still have the same problem.
Ok, back on topic ;)
I'm still thinking there is a fuel delivery problem ;
- Fuel line too small
- Fuel pump inadequate
- Carb not fully open with the pedal on the floor
(1) does the car have a 5/16 or 3/8 fuel line ?
(2) What fuel pump is on this 440 ?
(3) Float level checked ?
(4) was the holley 20-7 throttle adapter installed on this carb ?
Based on the pinging problem identified I'm thinking the problem is a lean condition at WOT. A 10:1 aluminum headed 440 should not ping on pump gas if all is right. :Twocents:
Once you get the dynamic compression test numbers we'll know what direction to go. :yesnod:
If the cranking number is low you can allways go in and advance the cam timing to increase bottom end power. If I was installing that cam on a 10:1 street build with 3.55 gears I'd degree it in on a 104* intake centerline. The XE284 is fairly healthy with 240/246@.050 :2thumbs:
Ron
Wow. Stepped out for a couple days and things went a little sideways. Certainly not my intent. c00 and I agree more often than not, and when we don't we jab each other, mostly in fun. Generally I'm the one taking the low road, not sure how this one ended upside down. I'll have to work on that. ;D
Can't do much until the car comes out. And certainly Ron's points need to be investigated too.
Quote from: firefighter3931 on February 18, 2016, 10:17:20 AM
Ok, back on topic ;)
I'm still thinking there is a fuel delivery problem ;
- Fuel line too small
- Fuel pump inadequate
- Carb not fully open with the pedal on the floor. Wouldn't hurt to check, but had help when it was installed.
(1) does the car have a 5/16 or 3/8 fuel line ? Has 3/8 fuel line from tank to carb, including sending unit.
(2) What fuel pump is on this 440 ? I think it's a carter mechanical pump, around 6.5 psi according to gage.
(3) Float level checked ? Yes, it's probably just over the halfway mark
(4) was the holley 20-7 throttle adapter installed on this carb ? The trans is a manual valve body so I didn't need the kickdown linkage. The cable is just attached to the carb lever.
Based on the pinging problem identified I'm thinking the problem is a lean condition at WOT. A 10:1 aluminum headed 440 should not ping on pump gas if all is right. :Twocents:
Once you get the dynamic compression test numbers we'll know what direction to go. :yesnod:
If the cranking number is low you can allways go in and advance the cam timing to increase bottom end power. If I was installing that cam on a 10:1 street build with 3.55 gears I'd degree it in on a 104* intake centerline. The XE284 is fairly healthy with 240/246@.050 :2thumbs:
Ron
Quote from: BSB67 on February 18, 2016, 11:11:31 AM
Wow. Stepped out for a couple days and things went a little sideways. Certainly not my intent. c00 and I agree more often than not, and when we don't we jab each other, mostly in fun. Generally I'm the one taking the low road, not sure how this one ended upside down. I'll have to work on that. ;D
Can't do much until the car comes out. And certainly Ron's points need to be investigated too.
You'll have that I guess. I may be able to get the info next Friday, so bear with me please.
Quote from: thrillbilly on February 18, 2016, 12:43:50 PM
(1) does the car have a 5/16 or 3/8 fuel line ? Has 3/8 fuel line from tank to carb, including sending unit.
(2) What fuel pump is on this 440 ? I think it's a carter mechanical pump, around 6.5 psi according to gage.
(3) Float level checked ? Yes, it's probably just over the halfway mark
(4) was the holley 20-7 throttle adapter installed on this carb ? The trans is a manual valve body so I didn't need the kickdown linkage. The cable is just attached to the carb lever.
Ok, some comments/observations :
(1) the 3/8 fuel line and pickup is fine....no worries there.
(2) Carter makes several "street" pumps but there is only one that is rated at 120GPH. If it's maintaining 6.5 PSI with the car at full throttle going the the traps....you're good.
(3) Float level is fine.
(4) Installing
any 4150/4160 style carb (Holley/Demon/Proform/Quickfuel etc...) absolutely requires the 20-7 adapter. Doesn't matter if you have a kickdown or not. The Adapter has nothing to do with Kickdown linkage and everything to do with
pedal ratioWhen you get over to see the car have someone push the pedal to the floor and look down the throat of the carb. I'll bet you will see the primary venturies partially open. I've seen this dozens of times over the years. It's a common mistake. Carbs are "universal fit" and as such require brand specific adapters to dial in the proper pedal ratio.
Ron
Oh my, how dumb would that be if all these years that was the issue. :slap:
https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/321987987800
Something like this doodad?
Now, is it possible to have the proper WOT without this? I'm going to get one regardless, just curious.
Glad to see this thread is getting back to the topic, these old car's can and will make you pull your hair out by the roots!!!! What works on one 440 may not work on another 440 but the set up you have is dragging for sure. Ron and BSB know their business when it comes to engines so maybe they can get your 440 running like it should....
Quote from: 69wannabe on February 18, 2016, 08:57:34 PM
Glad to see this thread is getting back to the topic, these old car's can and will make you pull your hair out by the roots!!!! What works on one 440 may not work on another 440 but the set up you have is dragging for sure. Ron and BSB know their business when it comes to engines so maybe they can get your 440 running like it should....
For sure, getting some great info and direction too look. Much appreciated.
Quote from: thrillbilly on February 18, 2016, 05:09:31 PM
https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/321987987800
Something like this doodad?
Yes, that is the part you
need :yesnod:
Quote from: thrillbilly on February 18, 2016, 05:09:31 PM
Now, is it possible to have the proper WOT without this? I'm going to get one regardless, just curious.
Without this part you
will not achieve proper pedal function. ;)
You might want to consider a taller throttle cable bracket as well with the RPM intake. The stock throttle cable stuff is too low and messes with the geometry. Mancini Racing carries the proper throttle cable bracket :
http://www.manciniracing.com/man440en.html
http://www.manciniracing.com/tarespbrben.html
http://www.manciniracing.com/thexdeca.html
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on February 19, 2016, 08:33:46 AM
Quote from: thrillbilly on February 18, 2016, 05:09:31 PM
https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/321987987800
Something like this doodad?
Yes, that is the part you need :yesnod:
Quote from: thrillbilly on February 18, 2016, 05:09:31 PM
Now, is it possible to have the proper WOT without this? I'm going to get one regardless, just curious.
Without this part you will not achieve proper pedal function. ;)
You might want to consider a taller throttle cable bracket as well with the RPM intake. The stock throttle cable stuff is too low and messes with the geometry. Mancini Racing carries the proper throttle cable bracket :
http://www.manciniracing.com/man440en.html
http://www.manciniracing.com/tarespbrben.html
http://www.manciniracing.com/thexdeca.html
Ron
I did make a riser for the throttle cable to be in line, so at least I did that properly. Thank you
Quote from: thrillbilly on February 19, 2016, 11:40:15 AM
I did make a riser for the throttle cable to be in line, so at least I did that properly.
Yep, you sure did...good job ! :2thumbs:
It'll be interesting to see what you find out looking down the throat of that carb with a helper matting the gas pedal. :scope:
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on February 19, 2016, 12:08:03 PM
Quote from: thrillbilly on February 19, 2016, 11:40:15 AM
I did make a riser for the throttle cable to be in line, so at least I did that properly.
Yep, you sure did...good job ! :2thumbs:
It'll be interesting to see what you find out looking down the throat of that carb with a helper matting the gas pedal. :scope:
Ron
I remember fooling with that, and getting it to wot and not hanging the idle open wasn't easy. I didn't notice anything in the demon instructions about it. But at least that will be one thing eliminated.
The instructions leave a lot to be desired...it's not specific to Demon either ; Holley is the same way. These Carbs are "universal fit" so one size fits all....but there should be better information for the end user. :yesnod:
They make those adapters for a reason and they are brand specific because the pedal ratio is not the same between Ford or Chrysler or GM.
I made the same mistake some 30 years ago installing my first Holley double pumper. Fooling with the throttle cable lockdown I could adjust the cable for WOT but it was partially open at idle. When I readjusted it to close at idle it would not fully open at full pedal. I thought for sure the carb was defective and returned it to the speed shop for replacement. The counter guy understood what was going on and ordered in the throttle adapter for me and all was good. :2thumbs:
Ron
Ps. With that engine combo it's going to like the 850 Demon double pumper....I wouldn't hesitate bolting it on. :icon_smile_cool:
Quote from: firefighter3931 on February 19, 2016, 03:16:24 PM
The instructions leave a lot to be desired...it's not specific to Demon either ; Holley is the same way. These Carbs are "universal fit" so one size fits all....but there should be better information for the end user. :yesnod:
They make those adapters for a reason and they are brand specific because the pedal ratio is not the same between Ford or Chrysler or GM.
I made the same mistake some 30 years ago installing my first Holley double pumper. Fooling with the throttle cable lockdown I could adjust the cable for WOT but it was partially open at idle. When I readjusted it to close at idle it would not fully open at full pedal. I thought for sure the carb was defective and returned it to the speed shop for replacement. The counter guy understood what was going on and ordered in the throttle adapter for me and all was good. :2thumbs:
Ron
Ps. With that engine combo it's going to like the 850 Demon double pumper....I wouldn't hesitate bolting it on. :icon_smile_cool:
I agree, I really think it will like more carb also. I real do appreciate the the advice, that's all I was looking for. You look at something for so long, you just overlook things.
Quote from: thrillbilly on February 19, 2016, 08:27:04 PM
I agree, I really think it will like more carb also. I real do appreciate the the advice, that's all I was looking for. You look at something for so long, you just overlook things.
You're welcome....hopefully we're headed in the right direction ;)
Sometimes it really helps to have a second set of eyes when troubleshooting. Often the correction is right in front of our eyes and we don't see it. Been there...more than once ! :lol:
Keep us updated :2thumbs:
Ron
I finally got down to the car. Couldn't find the receipt, but I am getting 175 psi on the compression tester. I am getting wot with the throttle setup that I have. Sorry for the long wait, and thanks again.
Those are quite respectable cranking compression numbers. Will have to look up ic ° for your cam, but that should be upper 9s to low 10s static. Given the other known components on your engine, your 100 mph trap speeds definantly sounds like either fuel starvation or lack of wide open throttle.
It is fully opened at wot, we checked it today. More cfm or go to an electric fuel pump setup? Will a too small of a carb run rich at idle and cruise and lean at wot due to lack of air flow? Or am I way off in that thinking?
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on March 05, 2016, 09:06:47 PM
........your 100 mph trap speeds definantly sounds like either fuel starvation.........
Maybe this.
Quote from: thrillbilly on March 05, 2016, 11:46:57 PM
More cfm
or go to an electric fuel pump setup?
Will a too small of a carb run rich at idle and cruise and lean at wot due to lack of air flow?
Or am I way off in that thinking?
No.
No.
No.
Yes.
It sounds like you have a problem somewhere. If this is correct, find the problem and fix it verses just replacing stuff. That is what I would recommend.
If you really want to get the engine to make the 450+hp it should and the car run the 110 mph that it should, you should do the following. 1) put a fuel pressure gauge on the car that you can read while you are driving and make sure you have at least 3.5 psi at WOT (if not, find out why), 2) Tune the car, 3) go back to the track and make several passes with and without the mufflers on. Record weather data. 4) Report back.
Alternatively, if you just replace stuff, the problem might just go away. This is fine too, but could cost more, and you really won't learn and understand what the problem is.
Quote from: thrillbilly on March 05, 2016, 03:15:32 PM
I finally got down to the car. Couldn't find the receipt, but I am getting 175 psi on the compression tester. I am getting wot with the throttle setup that I have. Sorry for the long wait, and thanks again.
The 175 psi is good news ! I was hoping to hear that the throttle wasn't fully opening but that would have been too easy :P
I'm still thinking it's a fuel related. As mentioned above....a fuel gauge that is readable inside the car while going down track would answer a lot of questions. :yesnod:
Something else I've seen in the past is a broken torque converter scrub a lot of MPH. If the fuel system checks out that's where to look next. :scope:
Ron
A fuel pressure gauge inside is something I don't have, but easy enough to add.
I have a question related to your question about Rich/Lean with carb size (I agree with BSB's response) and related to an earlier comment you made about it always running very rich. I apologize if I missed it, but what does your fuel curve look like? What do your plugs look like? From one of your earlier posts, I take it that have a wideband AF gauge. The others on here will know better than I, but I believe you also would see fuel starvation with that. I appreciate the car has not been running and this information may not be available, but if it is, it might be relevant.
Yes, I do have a wideband. The electrode of the plug is pretty clean, but the rest of it is black from being rich. I'm not sure what you mean by a fuel curve? I can data log with the wideband I have, but have never done so. Is that what you mean?
Quote from: thrillbilly on March 06, 2016, 09:09:25 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by a fuel curve? I can data log with the wideband I have, but have never done so. Is that what you mean?
Yes, that is what I meant. I thought knowing what the A/F looked like as you run it up through the gears at WOT as another type of information that could be relevant.
In re-reading my post, I want to make sure my point is clear. Before you look for more power, get what you have to run right. A bigger carb will make more power, but let's find the missing 80 - 100hp first.
Carb size has nothing to do with lean or rich.
A plug can actually read black for different reasons and conditions. Once the non-elcctrode part of the plug is black, it always will be. Based on you level of knowledge, I don't think you should be drawing too firm of any conclusions based on what you have described with your plugs.
Put a fuel gauge in it, as close to the carb as possible and do some full rpm blasts and report back.
As mentioned, converters, and other things can suck power.
I probably should have logged some data, but it felt to fast and furious to have a lap top hooked up, :lol:but it would have been a big help for this discussion.
I'm looking around for a fuel pressure gage. What is a better setup, a mechanical or electric setup? My fuel inlet does have a threaded port with a little mechanical gauge, but isn't doing me any good if I can't see it while driving. I won't change any parts until I can get these readings.
It will probably be a month or so until I can report back. I wait until all the nasties are off the road before I get it out.
Quote from: thrillbilly on March 06, 2016, 01:31:40 PM
My fuel inlet does have a threaded port with a little mechanical gauge, but isn't doing me any good if I can't see it while driving.
Got a GoPro?
No, but I could borrow one. Oh duh, that's a great idea.
You dont need anything fancy, a simple mechanical gauge routed up to the windshield and ziptied to the wiper arm is more then sufficient for the required test.
True, they are expensive, and I'm not sure it's a gage you constantly need?
Quote from: thrillbilly on March 06, 2016, 03:45:40 PM
True, they are expensive, and I'm not sure it's a gage you constantly need?
20 bucks is not expensive. Like i said, you dont need anything fancy. This basic gauge setup is housed under dozens of brands and available in stock at almost every national auto parts chain, some walmarts, and just about everywhere in between.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00KRJFSFQ/ref=s9_top_hm_awbw_b13uDV_g60_i2/185-1736852-1202533?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=mobile-hybrid-11&pf_rd_r=0Y1AYG938F0F475DP1CH&pf_rd_t=30901&pf_rd_p=bc078692-2358-593e-99ee-92c15149bb20&pf_rd_i=15707421
I guess I'm totally overthinking what I should use.
http://www.amazon.com/Chrome-White-Face-Pressure-Gauge/dp/B00TST7YHQ/ref=sr_1_3?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1457311101&sr=1-3
You can get these anywhere.. I think AutoZone or Advanced Auto carry the Mr. Gasket gauge with tubing and fittings.
:iagree: yup, more then one way to skin a cat. Like i said, aint gotta be pretty, just has to work long enough for a few full throttle blasts.
Wow, that took awhile. But I have some updates.
Installed fuel pressure gage. Runs between 6-8 psi steadily, idle, cruise, and WOT. After looking through some of my notes and watching my A/F ratio gage at WOT, there is a big lean spot from partial to WOT, goes into the 17's, not good. So I skipped ahead, (I know, I know) and went to the 850 mechanical secondary, with the Mopar carb adapter. Huge difference, A/F steady high 12's, low 13's at WOT, no bogs, just instant throttle response. It really, really runs great.
I also removed the PCV system and went to open breathers. After doing some reading, I didn't know that could cause detonation. I haven't experienced any since the changes, but it hasn't been hot outside yet, which is usually when I have that happen.
I have found a shop very close to my house that has a dyno. Great guy owns the place, mostly works on late model LS stuff, but I'm going to run the car on it in the next few weeks. I guess I'll know for sure what it has then. I'll post numbers ASAP.
How does an open breather cause detonation?
Open breathers don't cause detonation, PCV valves do.
Quote from: thrillbilly on May 06, 2016, 05:25:25 PM
and went to the 850 mechanical secondary, with the Mopar carb adapter. .
850 DP, good choice. Which one did you get?
Why a carb adapter? Do you mean throttle arm bracket?
A Mighty Demon. Yes, the throttle arm bracket, the brain is not working today :shruggy:
The throttle arm bracket does goof up where the stock throttle cable lines up in the cable bracket from the intake. I had to pull it back so that I am getting WOT, and it's about halfway out of the bracket. What's the fix there? I'm afraid it's not going to stay there.
Quote from: thrillbilly on May 06, 2016, 06:57:19 PM
Open breathers don't cause detonation, PCV valves do.
Is it the oil coming in through the PCV valve that causes detonation?
From what I understand the oil mist coming into the combustion chamber burns hotter than the air/fuel mix?
Quote from: thrillbilly on May 06, 2016, 09:14:51 PM
From what I understand the oil mist coming into the combustion chamber burns hotter than the air/fuel mix?
I didn't know that. Should we all switch to open breathers?
Never heard of pcv causing detonation :shruggy:
Quote from: 1974dodgecharger on May 07, 2016, 01:19:24 AM
Never heard of pcv causing detonation :shruggy:
PCV valve don't cause detonation, oil in the combustion chamber will. If there is that much oil coming from your PCV valve, you have another problem.
That is the same as I have read, the oil mist can contribute to detonation, but that active evacuation of the crankcase is beneficial for the engine (maybe keep the oil cleaner?).
Some use evacuation systems that scavenge crankcase gases with the exhaust (e.g., http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/crankcase-evacuation-systems).
Others put an oil catch can in line with the PCV valve. I read on another forum of others adapting a OEM style Mopar breather (with the host end) so they can plug the PCV valve into it and filter the gases before going back to the crankcase.
I have seen a few posts on this forum from people evacuate to the exhaust or just run breathers because they do not want the exhaust gases in their intakes for running at the track. Maybe they will add to this discussion.
(I see a fair amount of oil come out the crankcase on my engine, and I just decided to try the last approach (the mopar breather plumbed in line). My guess is that will not make a difference I will notice, but if it does, I will let you know. I also have a small amount of oil on plugs from the 4 rear most cylinders (but not on the 4 forward cylinders which I suspect may be related to the PCV drawing gases into the back of the manifold. I will see if that changes, but need to drive for a few weeks/months first.)
Quote from: thrillbilly on May 06, 2016, 07:27:02 PM
A Mighty Demon. Yes, the throttle arm bracket, the brain is not working today :shruggy:
The throttle arm bracket does goof up where the stock throttle cable lines up in the cable bracket from the intake. I had to pull it back so that I am getting WOT, and it's about halfway out of the bracket. What's the fix there? I'm afraid it's not going to stay there.
With a high rise intake the AR Engineering brackets are the best option. I've used this one with a Performer RPM, Street Dominator and now a Mopar M1 single plane. Worked flawlessly on all of them. I have a factory slant 6 cable which is longer than the stock 440 cable and it works great. The bracket is adjustable so you can get the cable paralell with the carb lever. :2thumbs:
http://www.manciniracing.com/man440en.html
Return spring & bracket
http://www.manciniracing.com/tarespbrben.html
Good to hear it's running much better. Seems like the old carb was the issue. Hopefully the Chassis dyno numbers show a nice improvement. ;)
Ron
Quote from: XH29N0G on May 07, 2016, 06:27:49 AM
I also have a small amount of oil on plugs from the 4 rear most cylinders (but not on the 4 forward cylinders which I suspect may be related to the PCV drawing gases into the back of the manifold.
This is not an uncommon result due to a leaking intake manifold gasket. Are you using just the pan gasket?
Quote from: BSB67 on May 08, 2016, 05:43:07 AM
Quote from: XH29N0G on May 07, 2016, 06:27:49 AM
I also have a small amount of oil on plugs from the 4 rear most cylinders (but not on the 4 forward cylinders which I suspect may be related to the PCV drawing gases into the back of the manifold.
This is not an uncommon result due to a leaking intake manifold gasket. Are you using just the pan gasket?
Russ, It could be. I did not assemble the engine. From what I can see it has the valley pan plus at least one other gasket which looks like it is on the manifold side. To make sure I understand your point, you mean there is a leak from the below the pan. [To follow up on my last post, I took the car out yesterday and did not see a noticeable change in detonation with the filter. The one rear plug I pulled yesterday still had a little oil on it (possibly a little less, but still there). Either means the solution I tried did not work, or the slight amount of oil is coming from somewhere else - like under the valley pan.]
Thrillbilly, I'll be interested to hear more about how it runs too.
Yes. I've seen every scenario. One pair, two pair, three pair and all intake runners leaking due to intake sealing issues. Just saying it could be. Could be other stuff too. Removal of the intake and close inspection can separate the leaking valve stem/guide seal from the intake gasket seal.
What intake do you have.
Performer RPM.
If you think it is pcv pulling oil, pull the hose off the valve and inspect for oil in the hose. If so, you need a better baffle system in the covers or run a catch can.
Quote from: firefighter3931 on May 07, 2016, 12:39:26 PM
Quote from: thrillbilly on May 06, 2016, 07:27:02 PM
A Mighty Demon. Yes, the throttle arm bracket, the brain is not working today :shruggy:
The throttle arm bracket does goof up where the stock throttle cable lines up in the cable bracket from the intake. I had to pull it back so that I am getting WOT, and it's about halfway out of the bracket. What's the fix there? I'm afraid it's not going to stay there.
With a high rise intake the AR Engineering brackets are the best option. I've used this one with a Performer RPM, Street Dominator and now a Mopar M1 single plane. Worked flawlessly on all of them. I have a factory slant 6 cable which is longer than the stock 440 cable and it works great. The bracket is adjustable so you can get the cable paralell with the carb lever. :2thumbs:
http://www.manciniracing.com/man440en.html
Return spring & bracket
http://www.manciniracing.com/tarespbrben.html
Good to hear it's running much better. Seems like the old carb was the issue. Hopefully the Chassis dyno numbers show a nice improvement. ;)
Ron
Thanks!! I ordered one!
I don't know if the pcv is the cause of my detonation, but thought I would pull it off and see. I'm leaning more towards the carb being the issue. I'd rather have it on honestly. I get a whiff of oil sometimes, but I don't see it coming out of the open breather.
I just replaced the valley pan gasket on mine. I've had to change it out a few times over the years, eventually I see oil on top of the pan? I've always just used the pan, no other gaskets.
Just an FYI, I tried to use the Hughes 2 piece pan, and it won't fit with a performer RPM intake. The RPM is too deep to clear it.
Finally got to run the car on the dyno. Made 380 hp and 418 ft lbs of torque @ 6000 rpm. A/F was right around 13. I went up a few jet sizes and it seemed to like it. I am still getting an off idle lean spot if I ease into the throttle. I don't have any issues if I just flat pedal it. There is no slack in my accel pump lever, I went up a squirter size, and that did seem to help.
Quote from: thrillbilly on September 07, 2016, 05:54:08 AM
Finally got to run the car on the dyno. Made 380 hp and 418 ft lbs of torque @ 6000 rpm. A/F was right around 13. I went up a few jet sizes and it seemed to like it. I am still getting an off idle lean spot if I ease into the throttle. I don't have any issues if I just flat pedal it. There is no slack in my accel pump lever, I went up a squirter size, and that did seem to help.
This sounds like good news. Do you know if it solved the detonation issue, too?
I read your statement about a flat pedal (resulting from a lean spot) as you ease in to the throttle from idle, to mean you do not have issues when you romp on it or when you accelerate from a cruise RPM. This tells me that it is something that happens just as the primary throttle blades begin to open. If you haven't already, make sure you have the floats set correctly because the fuel level plays a role in how gas is drawn through the various circuits in the carburetor.
My experience which is only with my car so far has been that the biggest impact on the lean spot just as the throttle is opened is related to the pump lever not just no having slack, but actually sending a healthy amount of gas when touched. I have my pump lever adjusted even beyond the point where it is slack but not to the point where it can bottom out and stress the pump assembly.
Opening up the squirter size also can help by increasing the amount of gas that comes in early, but changing this might also mean that you will want to reevaluate the off cruise and full on throttle transitions. My guess is that the accelerator pump cam is not the issue and is doing its job by keeping the gas delivery right for romping or tipping in to acceleration from cruise.
I would focus on these first, but also look up information on idle air bleeds (IAB) and idle feed restrictors (IFR). These affect how the fuel is delivered as the blades move across the transfer slots (from where the idle mixture screws work into cruise conditions and up to the point where the main circuit takes over). My brain isn't working today, so I can't remember how to explain what to do with these.
It is possible to get the circuits very close when the carb is sized right, but I find that I see changes in summer/winter gas and other variables like warm/cold engine on the A/F that I do not sense with the pedal. (Detonation also seems to change for me with summer/winter gas transitions.)
This sounds like good news. Do you know if it solved the detonation issue, too? I've ran it pretty hard and I haven't had any detonation since the carb swap and the removal of PCV. I'd rather have the PCV valve, so I may try and put it back on to see if that was causing the detonation.
I read your statement about a flat pedal (resulting from a lean spot) as you ease in to the throttle from idle, to mean you do not have issues when you romp on it or when you accelerate from a cruise RPM. This tells me that it is something that happens just as the primary throttle blades begin to open. If you haven't already, make sure you have the floats set correctly because the fuel level plays a role in how gas is drawn through the various circuits in the carburetor. Right, if I just floor board it, no stumble, it just takes off. But if I try to drive like a normal human being would, it wants to stumble under light acceleration from an idle. I went from a 31 squirter to a 35, it helped, went to a 37 and it made it worse. The float level is within the hash marks, but are at the high side of the window.
My experience which is only with my car so far has been that the biggest impact on the lean spot just as the throttle is opened is related to the pump lever not just no having slack, but actually sending a healthy amount of gas when touched. I have my pump lever adjusted even beyond the point where it is slack but not to the point where it can bottom out and stress the pump assembly.
Opening up the squirter size also can help by increasing the amount of gas that comes in early, but changing this might also mean that you will want to reevaluate the off cruise and full on throttle transitions. My guess is that the accelerator pump cam is not the issue and is doing its job by keeping the gas delivery right for romping or tipping in to acceleration from cruise.
I would focus on these first, but also look up information on idle air bleeds (IAB) and idle feed restrictors (IFR). These affect how the fuel is delivered as the blades move across the transfer slots (from where the idle mixture screws work into cruise conditions and up to the point where the main circuit takes over). My brain isn't working today, so I can't remember how to explain what to do with these.
It is possible to get the circuits very close when the carb is sized right, but I find that I see changes in summer/winter gas and other variables like warm/cold engine on the A/F that I do not sense with the pedal. (Detonation also seems to change for me with summer/winter gas transitions.)
Thank you for some good things to look at, appreciate it
Quote from: thrillbilly on September 07, 2016, 05:54:08 AM
I am still getting an off idle lean spot if I ease into the throttle.
My experience, this symptom is never due to the squirter. Open up the two primary idle mixture screws a 1/2 turn, and give it a test drive. Add 5° initial timing and give it a drive. Then report back. These are just tests to see how the car responds to these simple changes, and are not necessarily the long term adjustments.
380 RWHP is quite excellent, IMO
On a second read, here is what is odd, IMO, about your dyno data. 380 hp @ 6000 rpm.. That rpm seems a little high for the peak power level. But maybe not. :shruggy:
Can you post the data?
Sorry, I guess I meant it was ran up to 6000rpm, not that it peaked at 6000rpm. I'll have to scan the graph and attach it. You can see on the graph where it's poopie until around 2500 or so, then picks up and takes off. Thank you, I'll try those things and report back.