DodgeCharger.com Forum

Full disclosure.
1. I drive a Tesla P85D
2. I own a 64 Pontiac GTO

I was more of a Pontiac fella. I literally stumbled into a find. Bought a 68 Charger with a 440 in it. Drove it around the block 1 time becuase bearing on the water pump was squealing so I did not really get on it.

Got it home changed the alternator, filters, oil, gas, a few lines, water pump and thermostat. Checked the timing it is fine, car sounds decent at idle.

Took it out yesterday and i was so disappointed in this thing, It has had it nuts clipped off. I am not sure if it is becuase I am used to the torque and power in the Tesla. But this 440 drinks gas like a fish and I dont think it would give a run against a honda accord a challenge.

Stamped on pad is

4T440HP a
23

i figure it is a 1974 Trenton built 440 High Power engine.
23 is most likely the assembly day but I don't know the month.

I dont know the cam in it, or what is inside the block. The heads are cast iron. I dont know what they are yet. We have not take off the valve covers.

So being a 74 this thing should at least make 290HP I doubt it is even cracking 200.

So what should I do? I was not planning to do much engine work to it. But I cant take this thing out. It is embarrassing.

Becuase I was not planning to do much to the engine budget is extreemly important.

I planned to put a Holly Sniper EFI on it and a 3 core Alum radiator on it, Disk brakes all the way around and viking shocks. Possibly wire harness. I can only tell the rear harness was hacked, Dont know about the cabin or the engine harness

So summit has this edlebrock kit.20872. It comes with Heads, cam, intake manifold, timing chain, lifters, gaskets, and bolts. Says it is at 2117.00 Then the guy says we need roller cams and push rods. Hoping to stay under 900 for that part.

I completely  rebuilt the Pontiac 389 and that dynos at 360 for 4K. So I am not sure if 3k for top end on the 440 is even close to being a deal. Plus Brother in law and I will have to do the work.

What can I do to sex this thing up on a budget?

Welcome to the forum.  I think the first thing you should do is a compression check.  It'd also let you do a read on the spark plugs.  Figure out the state of your engine first, then figure out what you have

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/motor/36.html

4T means 1974
440 hp 440 high performance
A means cylinders .020 over size bore
23 not sure

What are the rear end gears in it? Maybe it has highway gears.  :Twocents: WINGNUT

I have never had sex with a car. I'd advise against it.  :smilielol:
As far as making the car faster, there are plenty of things to do. First up....You said that the timing is fine. Can you give specifics? Mine is set to 19 degrees BTDC initial, 33 degrees total.  I also have 3.55 gears, 28" tires and an automatic trans. Mine runs strong.
Ignition timing, torque converter stall speed and axle gearing can really make a difference.

Another chart to compare HP for different years and sizes of motors

http://www.mymopar.com/enginespecs.htm

Thanks a million for the replies. I want to apologize because I out of my depth with Mopar cars. But this thing looked so nice and sounded really good when we first started it. As best we could tell none of the gauges worked at all. The air cleaner was missing and the water pump was squealing I knew it was about to go out so i did not stomp on it. Would not have mattered much because i was buying it no matter what. 

Ok so here is what I noticed.
The guy put some money into the car. It has decent exhaust (flowmasters) and it is all new. It has hooker headers, and those heat blankets on all the Wires. I looked them up and there like 10 dollars a piece. It has Accell header sparkplugs (They are shorter) and an Accell cap and rotor. Under it was a first generation Petronix. It had an Edelbrock 600 carb but we swapped it out and it now has a Edelbrock 750 on it. timing was also set to 32 and it was bang on. I pulled 2 spark plugs and they looked brand new.

So after we drove it for an hour we noticed the intake manifold started to discolor. So we suspect the gal just hired someone to get it to run and it probably did not have a intake manifold and he just stuck one on. It is data coded from 69 and is stock for that year. The Guy who owned it passed away and the car was on consignment.

We will take the valve covers off this weekend and see what the heads are. I planned to do a compression check this weekend but I am almost positive this engine is in good shape. It doesnt smoke make any odd noise or anything like that. It just lacks power.

I have to tell you this has weighed on me all damn day. I was supposed to be working today and I can get my mind off this car. All the wind is out of my sails and i can nto think of nothing else but how this thing would loose against a god damn 84 Yugo.

We were planning to check the gears this weekend as well. But it doesnt seem to rev too high. Doesnt have a tach but I know is is not revving high.

It has 18 inch rims from a newer charger but those got to go.



Also I hate to mention it.. I can not find a trim or build tag. In pontiac speak there is a guy in Michigan that runs this place called Pontiac Historical Society. (PHS) so when ever you hear someone tell you there car is a GTO you pay like 80 bucks to this guy and he looks up the vin on microfiche and will print out the build sheet. From the build sheet you can 100% proof positive know how the car was built with every option it had when it rolled of the line.

Is there something equivalent in Mopar land? An entity I can pay and shoot the vin over to and they can tell me what I actually bought and how it looked when it left the factory?

And why is the front grill on this thing so damn expensive?

There is no Mopar place to tell you what the build sheet is by the VIN  :'(

68 Chargers will need a build sheet found inside the car to match a fender tag to the VIN tag because in 68 there was no VIN on the fender tag ( they started in 69 with VIN on fender tag )

Does your car have a VIN that starts with XP or XS ?
XS will mean it was a factory R/T
XP was just a regular car

The newer 440 motor has lower compression to help meet pollution standards of the day so are going to have a lot less zip

just FYI, taking apart the changes made along the years with the castings upgrades (or downgrades depending on the POV ) on blocks, you just need to get the right pistons and will get the same juice from earlier years. A 440 block from 68 is practically the same than a 440 from 74.

74 440s should got cast crank instead forged from earlier versions, but the are very well capable to hold the earliers 440s HP power, but on a lighter crank ( so more power in the sum ). But you still can get a forged one and change it to emulate the earliers 440s.

So in the end, just built the 74 440 with 68 parts or better ones and won't have a diference. Block don't change between an HP or standard engine ( like on Chebbbbbbies ), is just about internal parts difference

Correct compression like Nacho said by replacing pistons if from 1974. I used: http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/Sidewinder.html as best value $$ aluminum heads for allowing higher compression W better flow and loosing 50LB dead weight. Others can recommend cam. Roller lifters and fuel injection are not needed and save big $$$.

A smogged down '74 440 has 8.2 compression ratio.   If it has stock 346 / 452 heads they are nominally 84 cc chambers.   A 69 440 had 10 to 1.

You can bolt on some 75 CC aluminum heads...  or a set of iron '67 closed chamber heads to bump it up.    Or change out the pistons.

It'd also be helpful if you can find out what cam is in it.   Somebody could have swapped in too big of a cam that doesn't work with low compression.

Quote from: BrianShaughnessy on August 04, 2020, 02:53:21 PM
A smogged down '74 440 has 8.2 compression ratio.   If it has stock 346 / 452 heads they are nominally 84 cc chambers.   A 69 440 had 10 to 1.
.

Factory specs are a mile off. A 1970 383 2 barrel rated at 8.7 to 1 actually calculates at 8.12 to one.
The 8.2 to 1 number is likely off a bit too.
Last month I CCd 4 heads. 2 906s, a 346 and a 452. ALL were 90 CCs except for one of the 906s that was 88 CCs ! That makes a huge difference. Also, if the engine has stock pistons but was rebuilt using a common Fel Pro blue head gasket, the compression is certainly in the mid to high 7s now since they are almost double the thickness of the stock steel head gasket.

My vote is just pull it and build it

Quote from: INTMD8 on August 04, 2020, 08:38:54 PM
My vote is just pull it and build it

Yeah, Just rebuild & Hi Performance build the entire Motor. Then you'll have to build trans (stall converter) & rear. (3.91 sure grip) :scratchchin:

Wow - thanks for all the info fellas.

This vin is XP I knew it was not an RT.

Alright.. So today I bought the Holley Sniper EFI and the EFI tank pump and lines. I think I got out of it cheap at 1400, Another 3300 is all I am going to spend on the motor and thats it. That should get the the upper kit and the 3 core radiator.

I wanted to avoid pulliing the motor out and you fellas throwing around just rebuild it are killing me. Like it is choosing vanilla or chocolate ice cream.  :laugh: I wish i could but I just dont have the coin to do it. I wish i did.

So If the compression test comes back poor, I will not have a choice. But I am pretty comfortable stating the engine was built proper. If it has to come out I will just get a hone and do .010 over. I cant afford alot of machine work.

I was going to get that summit Edelbrock kit 60872 and some roller rockers for it. That with the EFI and the billet pulley kit should about do it. It appears these have angled plugs to help with clearance with the headers.,,,,,,,,,,,      But after I saw b5blue 's post I am going to call up mopartsracing  and tell them my target numbers and see what they can do for me. I really want a kit or a tried and proven list. I cant do the buy and try on this one. I know it is lazzzy but I just cant spend the money doing it.


I will need to solicit all of your expertise on the roller rockers and rods. I see a brand named Procomp. But It appears to me they are Chinese manufactured and I saw 1 or 2 poor reviews. I was leaning towards Harland Sharp CSP-S70015KE but I am looking for anyone to set me straight.

If I have to pull this motor out of this thing my wife is going to kill me.

I wanted to upload some pictures but the board will not allow pictures over 400KB in size. I am trying to shrink them down.

And to you all I cant tell you how much I  appreciate all the input.

Like I said this is my first Mopar classic car. I am learning.,,,,, So thanks for the patience and the suggestions. i really appreciate it. 

Quote from: Kern Dog on August 04, 2020, 05:41:56 PM

Quote from: BrianShaughnessy on August 04, 2020, 02:53:21 PM
A smogged down '74 440 has 8.2 compression ratio.   If it has stock 346 / 452 heads they are nominally 84 cc chambers.   A 69 440 had 10 to 1.
.

Factory specs are a mile off. A 1970 383 2 barrel rated at 8.7 to 1 actually calculates at 8.12 to one.
The 8.2 to 1 number is likely off a bit too.
Last month I CCd 4 heads. 2 906s, a 346 and a 452. ALL were 90 CCs except for one of the 906s that was 88 CCs ! That makes a huge difference. Also, if the engine has stock pistons but was rebuilt using a common Fel Pro blue head gasket, the compression is certainly in the mid to high 7s now since they are almost double the thickness of the stock steel head gasket.

Had a brain check and typed 84 instead of 88 CC.   Thanks for the reminder.    84 CC is the closed chamber Edelbrock aluminum head.   Too late to fix now ;)

Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 04, 2020, 09:02:58 PM

Quote from: INTMD8 on August 04, 2020, 08:38:54 PM
My vote is just pull it and build it

Yeah, Just rebuild & Hi Performance build the entire Motor. Then you'll have to build trans (stall converter) & rear. (3.91 sure grip) :scratchchin:

Don't have to do that any more than he had to put EFI on it.

Just saying what I would do, and that wouldn't be putting aluminum heads on a no compression engine.

Could be wrong but I don't have high hopes for it at this point if it feels slower than an 84 yugo

You have no idea of the cam, compression, or any other part of this engine, you have already bought efi, and now looking at aluminum heads and roller rockers? Put the credit card away. The parts will still be available after you figure out what your starting point is. Then you can put together a comprehensive plan to achieve your goals on a budget. For example, you may have some real nice iron heads on the car right now and your power problems are compression and cam.

So your afraid to pull the heads to see what the pistons are? (They are key to knowing how to be building power.)  :shruggy:

It's probably all stock with stock cam & stock Pistons. Also could be worn out with over 200,000 miles on it for all you know. all that together would account for your low performance. :shruggy:

Quote from: tonyskala on August 03, 2020, 07:35:36 PM
Took it out yesterday and i was so disappointed in this thing, It has had it nuts clipped off.

Have you checked the axle ratio? If the ratio is in the 2's the performance will suffer.

I have been reading this and apologize if it has already been posted. 

Several times I have read you talking about a KIT.  I assume this is the Edelbrock top end kit.  There are several things, to pipe in because you seem ready to spend and get this settled.

First, a number of times I have seen it written here and elsewhere that the cam on that kit is not the best choice.  The heads and manifold are fine.  But other cams are worth considering.
Second, with a 440 and assuming you have the bottom end and gears that work, you might be better served looking at heads other than the edelbrock.  I have seen the TF 240s mentioned and also some of the other heads, like the sidewinder heads.  But it also probably depends a lot on what the pistons are an how far down they are (and how they seal) as to whether these will work or are even the best option.
  It could be that the 75 cc heads will be a better option for you, but you will need to know what you have. 

The rockers on the stock set up are supposed to be very stable up to a point.  After that, my thinking is something like the bushed comp rockers or ductile steel before going fancy.

There are people who build engines here, who can advise on heads and do some of the best porting I am aware of, and who know much more than I do.  The stuff I just wrote is from my reading of their posts.  Not from my own experience.  I would wait a little, post more information, make more determinations of what you have and what you want, and then see what they say and decide. 

:Twocents:

Full disclosure....
1.) I did NOT read through all posts here before replying
and
2.) I'm old enough that I was able to drive and compare the 1974 440 HP engines to their earlier 68/69 hp Brethren back when new.

The 1974 440 'HP' engines had/have/has NO POWER whatsoever anyways, even back when new.
Cam changes can help somewhat ?
but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors.

I tend to listen and read things in literal terms. Having stated that......

Quote from: Challenger340 on August 06, 2020, 06:21:06 PM
The 1974 440 'HP' engines had/have/has NO POWER whatsoever anyways, even back when new.
Cam changes can help somewhat ?
but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors.

NO power whatsoever? Really? If placed in a car, the car could not move?
Be serious, man. Road tests of the day probably showed a mid to high 16 second quarter mile from a 74 440 powered vehicle. Not nearly as powerful as a 67-72 model but not exactly a slant six either.
Quench? Aside from the closed chambered 516 and 915 heads, what engines back then actually had any quench anyway?
Pistons .150 in the hole, weaker cam timing, single exhaust through log manifolds and retarded ignition timing were as much to blame as anything.
I suggest a compression test, maybe even degree the cam to get an idea of the specs. Some power can be found through tuning without a rebuild.

Quote from: Kern Dog on August 06, 2020, 07:36:52 PM

Be serious, man. Road tests of the day probably showed a mid to high 16 second quarter mile 

Have to agree with Challenger340 on this one.  ^Sounds like the definition of no power.

Quote from: Kern Dog on August 06, 2020, 07:36:52 PM
I tend to listen and read things in literal terms. Having stated that......

Quote from: Challenger340 on August 06, 2020, 06:21:06 PM
The 1974 440 'HP' engines had/have/has NO POWER whatsoever anyways, even back when new.
Cam changes can help somewhat ?
but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors.

NO power whatsoever? Really? If placed in a car, the car could not move?
Be serious, man. Road tests of the day probably showed a mid to high 16 second quarter mile from a 74 440 powered vehicle. Not nearly as powerful as a 67-72 model but not exactly a slant six either.
Quench? Aside from the closed chambered 516 and 915 heads, what engines back then actually had any quench anyway?
Pistons .150 in the hole, weaker cam timing, single exhaust through log manifolds and retarded ignition timing were as much to blame as anything.
I suggest a compression test, maybe even degree the cam to get an idea of the specs. Some power can be found through tuning without a rebuild.

Calling BS on this.. So everything you say is literal, you never exaggerate or use metaphors etc?  C'mon man, seems to me you are just trying to bust balls..

Quote from: timmycharger on August 07, 2020, 08:30:24 AM

Quote from: Kern Dog on August 06, 2020, 07:36:52 PM
I tend to listen and read things in literal terms. Having stated that......

Quote from: Challenger340 on August 06, 2020, 06:21:06 PM
The 1974 440 'HP' engines had/have/has NO POWER whatsoever anyways, even back when new.
Cam changes can help somewhat ?
but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors.

NO power whatsoever? Really? If placed in a car, the car could not move?
Be serious, man. Road tests of the day probably showed a mid to high 16 second quarter mile from a 74 440 powered vehicle. Not nearly as powerful as a 67-72 model but not exactly a slant six either.
Quench? Aside from the closed chambered 516 and 915 heads, what engines back then actually had any quench anyway?
Pistons .150 in the hole, weaker cam timing, single exhaust through log manifolds and retarded ignition timing were as much to blame as anything.
I suggest a compression test, maybe even degree the cam to get an idea of the specs. Some power can be found through tuning without a rebuild.

Calling BS on this.. So everything you say is literal, you never exaggerate or use metaphors etc?  C'mon man, seems to me you are just trying to bust balls..

What's wriong with that guy ?

By the 1974 hp 440's having no power I meant relatively, figuratively speaking, and comparably to other Mopar of the day.... namely the 68/69 440 brethren.
However,
I can quite clearly remember blowing the doors off buddy's 1973 Charger factory 440 hp 4 speed....... with a stock 1969 383 powered 4spd Roadrunner.... wasn't even a contest !
By the 3rd gear shift I was at least 3 car lengths ahead and still widening the gap.

So Korn Dog..... do you now want to pluck that somehow there must be a set of 1973 Charger doors in a ditch somewhere ?

  Oh Boy a pissing contest! I use to shame so called "Muscle Cars" with a 63 TR4. Sig Erson race cam/Dual side draft DCOE Webbers with hand made tube intake and header flowed head on 12 to 1 piston/sleeve mounted to a 4 speed with OD. So yea about the 5th time you heard the tires chirp my tail lights were way in front and you were a clueless looser. 
  Of course none of this helps OP in the slightest  :lol: 

So back on topic after some very 'special' imput (in the Olympic sense of the word)

Cam and Distributor Timing Curve changes can help the 1974 engines..... specifically a very steep initial advance curve that pulls up closer to 20-22* by 1800-2000 rpm then totalling 'all-in' close to 36-37 by 2800-3,000 rpm.
If you don't have access to a machine to spin and adjust the advance curve ?
Try power timing it manually with the dizzy vacuum plugged(leave it plugged).... and take it right until it pings then back slightly, the target being to get the Full/Total advance as close to the 36-37* BTDC advance as possible then checked with a Timing Light.
and,
one of the best additions we found on those very low compression engines on the Auto Cars, albeit, ups the $ and labor investment was the addition of a Saturday Night Special type Torque Convertor. Something that gives an honest 2200-2400 stall is great even with 3.23 cogs.  
The extra Torque Multiplication down low just gives the low-pop engines a much needed bit of a 'run' into their power range where they can begin building cylinder pressure.

Quote from: tonyskala on August 04, 2020, 02:34:42 AM

Also I hate to mention it.. I can not find a trim or build tag. In pontiac speak there is a guy in Michigan that runs this place called Pontiac Historical Society. (PHS) so when ever you hear someone tell you there car is a GTO you pay like 80 bucks to this guy and he looks up the vin on microfiche and will print out the build sheet. From the build sheet you can 100% proof positive know how the car was built with every option it had when it rolled of the line.

Is there something equivalent in Mopar land? An entity I can pay and shoot the vin over to and they can tell me what I actually bought and how it looked when it left the factory?

I think that would be Galen Govier

http://galengovier.com/

Quote from: tonyskala on August 04, 2020, 02:34:42 AM
And why is the front grill on this thing so damn expensive?

just the grill? WELCOME TO MOPAR WORLD LOL

Now you will know the reality of our World and why a decent car is so expensive against similars from Chebbbbbbie or Phords. Mopar are expensive not just because they are the best ( LOL ), but also because how hard and expensive  is the rebuild world for us

Tony,

You just jumped into a scuffle.  Challenger340 knows what he is saying about engines.  He is one of the people to pay attention to.  There are others KD can also be.  But I get the impression Challenger340 won't cut corners and won't mince words.  Look to the proven engine combos.

I added my bit because I saw some things being said that I had read differently from others.

PS,  My first car was a 1969 Pontiac Lemans.  The second was the charger in the avatar.  I wish I still had that Pontiac, but that went long ago.

Quote from: Challenger340 on August 07, 2020, 09:58:40 AM
So back on topic after some very 'special' imput (in the Olympic sense of the word)

Oh, the irony is T H I C K with this one! "Imput" ?   :smilielol:

A few of you missed the point.

There was power in the later 440s, just not nearly as much.
Your response should have been something to the effect of : "The later 440s were nowhere near as powerful as...OR the later 440s made about half the power....
You seem like a smart guy. It isn't helpful To just instantly dismiss a later engine instead of offering some advice on how to restore some guts to the castrated smog era engines.

Quote from: Kern Dog on August 06, 2020, 07:36:52 PM
I tend to listen and read things in literal terms. Having stated that......

Quote from: Challenger340 on August 06, 2020, 06:21:06 PM
The 1974 440 'HP' engines had/have/has NO POWER whatsoever anyways, even back when new.
Cam changes can help somewhat ?
but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors.

NO power whatsoever? Really? If placed in a car, the car could not move?
Be serious, man. Road tests of the day probably showed a mid to high 16 second quarter mile from a 74 440 powered vehicle. Not nearly as powerful as a 67-72 model but not exactly a slant six either.
Quench? Aside from the closed chambered 516 and 915 heads, what engines back then actually had any quench anyway?
Pistons .150 in the hole, weaker cam timing, single exhaust through log manifolds and retarded ignition timing were as much to blame as anything.
I suggest a compression test, maybe even degree the cam to get an idea of the specs. Some power can be found through tuning without a rebuild.

My wifes 2.5 liter 4 cylinder nissan went 16.20s. A legit smog 440 is junk.

And here in lies the problem again

Tony... welcome and where approximately are you located? I won't chime in on engine since these guys have more knowledge in their pinky than I do in my entire brain... However, I would be careful trying to fix it quickly. Do it right and start at the base in understanding what you have. I originally had granny gears in my rear-end and no matter what I did, it wasn't gonna feel like a muscle car. Once you figure out where you're starting, then you can plan your build. There's a bunch of great resources depending on what issues you uncover, and the guys are here have a ton of knowledge.

He can pull the heads with the block in the bay and see. It could have a wiped cam from the wrong oil but the exact correct pistons for the heads. So much can be changed in 45 years. It could be rebuilt to perfection with some simple flaw holding it back.  :shruggy:
I really hope it's just a screwed up carb. he is replacing.

Quote from: Kern Dog on August 08, 2020, 05:24:16 PM

Quote from: Challenger340 on August 07, 2020, 09:58:40 AM
So back on topic after some very 'special' imput (in the Olympic sense of the word)

Oh, the irony is T H I C K with this one! "Imput" ?   :smilielol:

A few of you missed the point.

There was power in the later 440s, just not nearly as much.
Your response should have been something to the effect of : "The later 440s were nowhere near as powerful as...OR the later 440s made about half the power....
You seem like a smart guy. It isn't helpful To just instantly dismiss a later engine instead of offering some advice on how to restore some guts to the castrated smog era engines.

And Thank You for the "helpful" and much needed "imput" once again Corn Dog.....

BTW, please re-read here where I think I am truying to assist ?  Up to.... but excluding the already afore mentioned Cam Swap ?

Quote from: Challenger340 on August 07, 2020, 09:58:40 AM
So back on topic after some very 'special' imput (in the Olympic sense of the word)

Cam and Distributor Timing Curve changes can help the 1974 engines..... specifically a very steep initial advance curve that pulls up closer to 20-22* by 1800-2000 rpm then totalling 'all-in' close to 36-37 by 2800-3,000 rpm.
If you don't have access to a machine to spin and adjust the advance curve ?
Try power timing it manually with the dizzy vacuum plugged(leave it plugged).... and take it right until it pings then back slightly, the target being to get the Full/Total advance as close to the 36-37* BTDC advance as possible then checked with a Timing Light.
and,
one of the best additions we found on those very low compression engines on the Auto Cars, albeit, ups the $ and labor investment was the addition of a Saturday Night Special type Torque Convertor. Something that gives an honest 2200-2400 stall is great even with 3.23 cogs. 
The extra Torque Multiplication down low just gives the low-pop engines a much needed bit of a 'run' into their power range where they can begin building cylinder pressure.

Quote from: b5blue on August 09, 2020, 09:21:57 AM
He can pull the heads with the block in the bay and see. It could have a wiped cam from the wrong oil but the exact correct pistons for the heads. So much can be changed in 45 years. It could be rebuilt to perfection with some simple flaw holding it back.  :shruggy:
I really hope it's just a screwed up carb. he is replacing.

IMO,
This would seem good advice to diagnostics in determining just what a guy is working with here ? to assess potential ?

You don't HAVE to have Compression to make power.....
IQ52 (Jim LeRoy) for one has I think PROVEN that fact beyond contention, albeit, through bringing considerable knowledge/know-how to the table that may be above simple bolt-ons for most DIY guys, and by raising rpm ranges potential past where most would want it ?

Just say'in....
for the purposes of this discussion I think we're simply talking bolt-ons and tuning to enhance output on the later smog era 440's.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the info fellas.

I am going to put all this to good use.

Ok So here is what we figured out this weekend and what we did.

We set the timing to 10 degrees. We did not get to the Distributor Timing Curve but we intend to get to that probably Wednesday.  We adjusted the carb so it is idling really nice. Sounds great at idle. We put in 10 ounces of mystery oil in the crank case and 10 ounces in the fuel and 108 octane boost.

Ran the car for an hour. It with total and complete certainty had blow back in the engine. It was pushing smoke up through the dip stick and the breather on the valve cover. We spotted oil coming out of the breather so we replaced it with a K&N one. Drove it for another 30 min and filled up with gas again. Changed the fuel filter and the difference was immediately noticeable.

It stopped smoking, and the leaks are all gone. I degreased the engine and then pressure washed it. Came out on ready to remove the valve covers Sunday because that is where we thought the leaks were coming from. But it did not leak 1 drop of oil after driving it really hard and really long the previous day. Not 1 drop anywhere. So I did not pull off the valve covers so I still do not know what kind of heads are on this thing. Sunday and we did our compression check.

From the front driver side here is what we got
DS           PS
105         113
100         110
105         110
105.        115   

So the Driver side pressures are what I consider a lot lower than the passenger side. If I got these numbers on the GM I would probably rebuild it in the next 10K
But the searching we did sad this was with in tolerance but I always thought you wanted above 115.

Nevertheless all the spark plugs looked really good. Little brass brush to them before the went in and the car started right up.

We adjusted the linkage on the carb got new spring for it and did our best to connect the transmission set up spring and linkage. This is still foreign to me but my brother in law knew how to do it.

So driving it around the block and up and down the street it seems to have a little more pep to it. But we noticed reverse is extremely slow to engage and we think it has only gone into 3rd gear once.

Tach doesn't work but I am guessing at 55mph it is going 3500 to 4000 rpm so I know 3rd gear is not working or not adjusted properly.

Car doesn't not smoke any longer after hard driving and does not leak at all. So for now I can live with he engine power it is making. I think it a little better but I cant tell until that thing goes into third and right now it is just not doing it.

I called around and some guys have told me reverse and 3rd are tied together in a way I dont understand but they think the transmission is problematic. I am taking the car down to the place Wednesday in Oakland because I dont understand how the transmission works. My bother in law says he has done all he can with it and it is time go engage a professional.

I think the gears are 4.11's

So becuase the engine is at least running well I will skip anything further on it until we can get it to shift the gears properly.

So like I was saying I understand Pontiac a little better than mopar and to me this 440 engine just seems tired to me.

On the Pontiac's I have done. 1 was bone stock and one was a resto mod. I cant hunt parts down for  them and do the buy and try method. I dont have the finance to fiddle with multiple different configs until I find one I like.

I am looking at you folks or summit or jets to say "buy this package and you will get this type of performance". That is why I was leaning hard towards a kit. tried and proven. But I hear you guys.

I was looking at that edelbrock kit but one fella here pushed me onto a fella up in Wisconsin who says he can build a package out better than eddlebrock for cheaper. Eventually, I will go that route. but not sure how quickly I will get there. But thanks for the info on the CAM. And the better options. The CHEBBIES I have done as long at the bottom is good I can build out the top to drive performance. CAM, heads, intake and headers usually got me there. So that was why I was looking at the kit.

So I know you fellas dont know me from spit, but I promise if this car was something special I would do it justice. But this thing is a run of the mill 68 Charger that probably started out with a 318. I get the purist angle but this car is not the one to do it with. My other two went that route and it was expensive and in all honesty I dont enjoy them that much because I am worried about wearing out a part out or cracking a windshield or destroying the numbers matching block.

I am going to drive the piss out of this charger. That was the reason for the Sniper EFI. Reliability and I would have done it regardless. So I dont consider that wasted coin. Had it on a 68 Camaro and I was extremely happy with it.



And I dont want you folks getting testeee on  my account. I know mid seventies stuff from any manufacture had been neutered. I honestly dont know what I even have. I just expect this this 440 to at least behave stock. But it is just not doing what I expected it to have done. But I swear I am going to get it there.

The transmission shifting into third
Did you try moving the gear shift leaver farther forward towards the neutral notch on the gear shift to make sure the linkage was not just set up too short ?

Yeah, we moved it as far up as it would go and left 1/4 of an inch on the rod. From what we read reverse and 3rd share components. Transmatic in oakland is going to look at it for me on Wednesday. He said he will look at the linkage first, test pressures and see if it is just fine adjusting. But he seem to think since it is reverse and 3rd both having trouble and 3rd more often than not going into gear that the clutches for third is bad. First and second are solid. actually quite peppy.

He said the worst it would be is a rebuild. 1200.00 And he will put some advanced shift kit in it if he goes that way. but he said first he will do a check on it.

My real concern now is these low compression numbers. I dont have the ability to rebuild the bottom end. I would have to send it out. I am hoping someone knows more about these blocks than I do, But I suspect I will need to know what these heads are to actually determine if these compression numbers are actually that bad.

Initial timing needs to be 18 to 25 ish , total 39ish, vac advance on ported vacuum, you really need to have a dist recurved, in your case with out recurve ,, set it like I said with the vac advance unplugged, 10 initial timing will run like a pig,,,, Basic same thing Bob, Challenger 340 said

@cdr-

thanks. I will set it between 18 and 25 and a total of around 39  this week and circle back to you.

We will also do the advance curve.


Appreciate the info

"but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors"
Sorry, what do you mean ?

 :poke:

Blowing 105 psi is the classic 7.8:1 cast slugs.

What a funny thread.

Quote from: BSB67 on August 11, 2020, 06:06:39 AM
What a funny thread.

Good morning Russ, do you have some more pictures of your Charger, I thought I had saved some some from a site but I can't find them,
Thanks Charlie

Quote from: ACUDANUT on August 11, 2020, 01:23:31 AM
"but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors"
Sorry, what do you mean ?

That by 1972.... the 440 Engines lacked pressure, turbulence, and quench reducing efficiency at Torque/Horsepower compared to the earlier engines ?

By 'pressure' I meant dynamic C.R.'s suffered in the lower rpm range limiting Torque, and with the Piston so far down at TDC little 'remix' of the A/F charge occured closer to TDC..... and also related to poor scavenging, the 5 th cycle responsible for rpm range power production with the absolutely HUGE quench distance ?

I mean by 1968 all BB Mopar Heads were 'open' chambers of approx .100" which many would consider too large a quench distance anyways, nonetheless, on the 68/69 engines with a .020" Head gasket and Pistons .060" down hole on the 2.035" C.D. Pistons.......  the realtively quicker/hotter burn the ~9.5:1 still produced more pressure to get spent gases moving out the Exhaust Port.

For basic example only of some concepts : If you spark an A/F charge compressed to 160 psi it reaches peak combustion pressure/heat faster/sooner..... that an A/F charge only compressed at 120 psi.
Now think 'where' peak pressures/PUSH/heat can be placed on a Piston.... and.... remnant gases latent combustion

With some of the later smog engines using 1.99" and even worse 1.91" CD Pistons(and anything in between)..... not only were incipient ignition pressures reduced with the lower compression ratios but indeed 'peak' pressures/push on the Piston itself was reduced as more A/F was wasted burning out and through the Exhaust Port to reduce emissions(or so was the idea anyways).

Think of it this was as it relates to scavenging on overlap:
How do you increase Exhaust Port Flow ?
UP the pressure in the Combustion Chamber pushing the spent gases out the Exhaust Port !
Conversely...
reduce the pressure and Flow less....

 

QuoteBlowing 105 psi is the classic 7.8:1 cast slugs.

Put an 8-71 on top.  Problem solved.   

Quote from: tonyskala on August 10, 2020, 09:26:11 PM


From the front driver side here is what we got
DS           PS
105         113
100         110
105         110
105.        115   

So the Driver side pressures are what I consider a lot lower than the passenger side.

Just thinking out loud, I could consider the diff maybe just about a "WONDERFULL" Machinist job from factory when decking the block after the casting getting one side lower than the other. Not really uncommon.

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on August 12, 2020, 12:47:29 AM
 

QuoteBlowing 105 psi is the classic 7.8:1 cast slugs.

Put an 8-71 on top.  Problem solved.   

Not really. The dynamic compression ratio of the said engine is probably in the 6s depending on the cam profile.its got the wrong cam, wrong heads, wrong pistons and wrong rods and wrong exhaust for an 8-71. A 125 shot of nitrous would live for years on that engine with a stock rotating assembly and be a far better choice then a blower.

https://help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4988/~/supercharging-basics-%E2%80%93-engine-preparation

   

QuoteNot really. The dynamic compression ratio of the said engine is probably in the 6s depending on the cam profile.its got the wrong cam, wrong heads, wrong pistons and wrong rods and wrong exhaust for an 8-71. A 125 shot of nitrous would live for years on that engine with a stock rotating assembly and be a far better choice then a blower.

I was just making a joke about the CR being so low.   :nana:

I got the joke, Mike!   :pity:

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on August 12, 2020, 03:05:18 PM
 

QuoteNot really. The dynamic compression ratio of the said engine is probably in the 6s depending on the cam profile.its got the wrong cam, wrong heads, wrong pistons and wrong rods and wrong exhaust for an 8-71. A 125 shot of nitrous would live for years on that engine with a stock rotating assembly and be a far better choice then a blower.

I was just making a joke about the CR being so low.   :nana:

I got the joke too, but some people are probably ordering an 8-71 because of it and more are ordering spray... in all honesty, a 6-71 would be better suited anyway.

 

QuoteI got the joke, Mike!   :pity:

QuoteI got the joke too, but some people are . . .

Glad it wasn't a total miss.    
   

Quotein all honesty, a 6-71 would be better suited anyway.

Yeah the 6-71 would be better for low/mid-range driveability.  

But, as a solution to an inadequate CR, the 8-71 idea sounds even more ridiculous than a 6-71.  Critical factor in my decision.    
 

Passenger side plugs still installed during the test on the driver's side?
How much compression in your 389 using the same gauge?

I started doing the following when I did compression tests:

Remove all spark plugs.
prop the throttle open.
Attach a battery charger to the battery to maintain voltage.
cross the terminals on the relay to spin the engine 5 times.
Record the highest point where the gauge needle swings.

These are the numbers when I had almost 11 to 1 compression and a Mopar 292/509 cam. The left side had 1.6 rockers, the right were stock 1.5s.

If you need to hook up a battery charger and setup an in depth prep to run a basic compression test- we have issues. I see this all the time. Just pull the plugs and record the numbers. If you have that many other problems that you need to prep for the test...  well. I dont know.

Text Book; Engine Compression Test -- for EFI, but still useful info.
A well-sealed cylinder should make 50% of its total compression in the first stroke -- use a remote starter button, record 1st, and 4th strokes.
The minimum spec for most gas engines is 100psi. If you're really at 100psi, you have problems. Verify your gauge is correct, and the test is consistent -- ALL plugs removed, cylinders dry, battery charged.

1.   Charge the battery if the battery is not fully charged.

2.   X Disable the ignition system. X

3.  X Disable the fuel injection system. X

4.   Remove ALL spark plugs.

5.   X Turn the ignition to the ON position. X

6.   Depress the accelerator pedal to position the throttle plate wide open.

7.   Start with the compression gage at zero and crank the engine through 4 compression strokes, 4 puffs.

8.   Measure the compression for each cylinder. Record the readings.

9.   If a cylinder has low compression, inject approximately 15 ml (1 tablespoon) of engine oil into the combustion chamber through the spark plug hole. Measure the compression again and record the reading.

10.   The minimum compression in any 1 cylinder should not be less than 70 percent of the highest cylinder. No cylinder should read less than 690 kPa (100 psi). For example, if the highest pressure in any 1 cylinder is 1 035 kPa (150 psi), the lowest allowable pressure for any other cylinder would be 725 kPa (105 psi). (1 035 x 70% = 725) (150 x 70% = 105).

•   Normal — Compression builds up quickly and evenly to the specified compression for each cylinder.

•   Piston Rings Leaking — Compression is low on the first stroke. Compression builds up with the following strokes, but does not reach normal. Compression improves considerably when you add oil.

•   Valves Leaking — Compression is low on the first stroke. Compression usually does not build up on the following strokes. Compression does not improve much when you add oil.

•   If 2 adjacent cylinders have lower than normal compression, and injecting oil into the cylinders does not increase the compression, the cause may be a head gasket leaking between the cylinders.

Ok, so here is what happened.

We could not get this thing to go into 3rd and reverse was really slow to engage.

So I took it to Transmatic in Oakland CA and left it. ( This guy has done lots of work for me on Mustangs, my Pontiacs, and my camareo) he has treated me right every time and sold me some parts extremely cheap that he had for the GTO.

So he called me and told me the linkage and adjustments we did were fine but the transmission seemed to have a bad clutch in it and rather than replace the bad ones he would prefer to rebuilt it and put in a slick shift kit into it.

So when he opened it he sent me some pictures of the clutch plates and 1 had completely delaminated and other rings had warped and 1 had even broke. So he told me for 1000 he would rebuild the whole thing. So it is getting a rebuilt transmission. And I suspect t will drive a hell of a lot better.

Then when we get it back we will adjust the timing like suggested. Get it to run correct. then from there we will decide on the engine.

upgrade the sprag while its apart.

Being a '74, and if it's all stock, you'll never make real power with that wrist pin where it is at on the piston. I believe that is how they dropped the compression ratio, by raising the wrist pin bringing the piston down. Please correct me if wrong

While low compression certainly hurts, it isn't  a death sentence. You can make po :2thumbs:wer with a low compression engine. Ask Jim LaRoy if you can find him!

Don't forget the zinc in your oil. Maybe too late  :shruggy:

Thanks for all the advice...

So we have car back did more fiddling and tuning and it is now much better than we got it. I am able to drive it around with out much issue.

We got all the gauges to work except oil pressure. We kept throwing a belt but swapped it out for a new shorter one and I can now take it on the freeway at 80 and it powers on. No tach in it but I suspect we are at 4 grand at 80mph. We moved the timing up like suggested and it sort of starts right up and after it warms up it starts and stops with out any issue. No choke on it. It has a mild flat spot on it accelerating out of a stop but it moves like a proper 6 cylinder mustang.

What I am saying is it still lacks power. I dont think this thing was ever for a muscle car. It has to be a motor home engine. But It is drivable and sounds mean and gas milage is up to around 15 miles a gallon. So it is tolerable. I am not sure we will get it much better than it is now with what is in the car.

In light of it working I am moving is a slightly different direction right now.

As I stated we got a Holley Sniper EFI and we will install that in the next 2 weeks. I got a new fuel tank with the baffles, All the plumbing and pumps. When we get that in we will tune it to make it run well and hopefully it will just be better on start up and get better gas milage.

Then I got a QA1 level 1 suspension kit with the shocks. I got a Pirate jack disk brake conversion kit, and all new tie rods, pitman arm, and idl arm and a new 1-1/8 sway bar.

I plan to get a new steeering column as well as this one has been slightly hacked with a grinder for a hazard switch and there is a kew slot in it that is not for anything.

Since all that is steering and suspension related I was thinking (EFI Aside) we will do all that at once. and get it to stop wobbeling and pulling so much. Then with the EFI It will keep my happy until Thanksgiving.

Now I am still looking into this engine. I will at some point rebuild it or have it replaced. I just am not sure. There is a 440 I found in the LA area and the guy was asking 4k. He sent me over some of the build specs and it doesnt look like it is terrible. It has never been run and the builder who built it has on the sheet it an estimation of 425 to 450 hp. So I then called around here for a shop to rebuild mine and got quotes as high as 7k down to 2,300. I asked simply for a short block build and told them the top end would be provided. So if I rebuilt mine I am guessing with the purchase of the top end kit I would be into it for 4500 to 5000. So the one already done looks promising.

But that is going to be a few months down the road. Right now. Steering , suspension and EFI are on the list.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I really appreciated all of it.  I will probably have more questions on the suspension as I have never worked with these torsion bars.

So I have been enjoying the car for a couple of weeks. The car is much much better but it would not win many, if any speed contests. I just cruise around at moderate  speed and people think it is a beast because I will not get on it.

Anyway driving around a week ago I heard a really loud bang and then some serious pulling from driver side front wheel. Brake idiot light came on. Had it towed home and have not looked at it yet as I bought a pirate jack 4 wheel disk brake kit and was planning to change them over anyway.

Been researching how to do the conversion and in the process determined that it would be a good idea to change out all the suspension components and bushings.

Like I said I got the Pirate Jack 4 wheel disk brake kit, new QA1 upper control arms, new QA1 front and rear shocks, new new dynamic strut bars, new lower ball joints, new inner and outer tie rod ends, new lower control rod shafts with greasable fittings an Addco 1-1/8 front sway bar and all the bushings to replace this stuff.

Because I did not have a good press I was also going to get the QA1 lower control arms, but it turns out they are not compatible with b body sway bars. You have to buy the QA1 K member and then you can use an a body sway bar. Well that k member and lower control arm set up would cost about 1800 and it turns out it pushes your motor back about 3 inches which means the drive shaft would need to be shortened.

So I am opting to just rebuild the lower control arms. I winded up getting the boxing plates to strengthen the lower control arms. Plan to start the work this weekend. This work should make it drive and stop like a brand new car.

My only real concern is pressing out the old bushings on the lower control arms and working with these torsion bars and breaking them free to remove the lower control arms.

The loud noise surely was from something coming apart in the drum assembly. I had a spring pop off and jam against the shoe. SCREEEeeeeech!
I had a set of disc brakes pulled from a 75 Dart ready to go on, so I parked the car and did the swap the next weekend.
Good luck with the car!

So this thing had a ton of grease and dirt under it. It took me 4 hours to degrease and pressure wash the damn thing, And there is still a ton of dirt and grease on it.

Anyway I got it all apart. The driver side brake shoe pads ( both of them ) separated from the Brake Shoes. I got it all of and I have 2 issues so far.

1 I can not seem to get the rubberized coating I sprayed on to dry. It has been like two days and it is still tacky.

2. I can not get these bushings out of the lower control arms. I knew it would be a issue but man I banged on those things for like an hour. I stopped mid way and welded in the stiffening plates because I was banging on this thing so long I thought I was bending them.

I cant believe how poor of a design these things are. Dodge did not want these things coming out. I welded in washers and will try tomorrow to press them out. I have to go to harbor freight to get  press first. My hands are beat to hell. I have caught them on so many burs.

So I do have a question. I have new QA1 Upper control Arms. DO I tighten them up in the resting position down unlaoded position or should I load it like 1/4 of the way up and then tighten them up? Do I assemble the bottom contol arm and then load it with the torson bar and then tighten the  top

Control arms and strut rods get tightened with the car on it's tires.

My understanding is the OP's trans calved....
was a substitute T/Convertor with slightly higher stall speed considered/installed, while the Trans was out being rebuilt ?  as was suggested earlier on Page #2 to allow the low-comp engine a 'run' into it's Torque Band
(ie: Saturday Night Special T/Convertor ?)

Just say'in.....
if the purpose of this Site and thread is to assist enthusiasts with their mopar efforts.... by relating practical tried/true and proven through experience tips/tricks and advice ?
Then what's the point providing the benefit of that experience trying to help with 'issues' if the advice gets ignored..... and the OP continues relating the exact SAME problem being NO POWER ?

Forgive me for saying so.... but this thread seems a complete waste of time if you are/were trying to correct the chief complaint being NO POWER ?

Here you were told on page #2
one of the best additions we found on those very low compression engines on the Auto Cars, albeit, ups the $ and labor investment was the addition of a Saturday Night Special type Torque Convertor. Something that gives an honest 2200-2400 stall is great even with 3.23 cogs.  
The extra Torque Multiplication down low just gives the low-pop engines a much needed bit of a 'run' into their power range where they can begin building cylinder pressure.

Yet, while the Trans was OUT and being rebuilt..... it seems NO T/Convertor was substituted for a very few hundred Dollars....
and yet....
the OP is contemplating an EFI setup for Thousand + Dollars to make even LESS power than a Carb(yes EFI makes LESS power especially on the low-pop engines)..... and the Engine is still slower than molasses ?

Just seems for every ONE step you try to take forward..... you take THREE steps backwards making the Engine even slower ?

 :iagree:  yup. 100%. I would personally go a little looser then that. Everyone is scared to death of converters. I would stick something that flashes closer to 3k in it. Hell, my stock silverado comes with a 3k from the factory. There is so much misconception that the flash number is where the converter will sit all the time.

Agreed on the converter. 

I've never heard of a Silverado with stock 3k converter however

Quote from: INTMD8 on October 14, 2020, 02:07:59 PM
Agreed on the converter.  

I've never heard of a Silverado with stock 3k converter however

2006 2500 hd lt2 tow package.  6.0 gas. Powerbraking stock they  flash at 2800 due to pcm torque management but from a roll it flashes at 3. I have a programmer, no cats and full exhaust.

https://youtu.be/zuJDkj3c774

We did a bunch of Drag Strip testing with a 1976 smogger very low compression 440 back in the 80's..... which eventually with Cam Swap/Gearing/Tires etc., pulled down low 12's @ 4500 ft elevation installed in a 1974 Challenger.
However,
The biggest single improvement in E.T. at the Track.... and subsequent beatings hung on many competitors that prior stomped it on the street ...... was the installation of an 11" Torque Convertor.....
which not only dumped the 60ft time by 2 tenths and almost 1/2 a second off the Track E.T.,
but strangely and unexplained increased the mph in the 1/4 by 3 mph !

That's WHY I suggested a T/Convertor be part of any Cam Swap contemplated.... because of the dramatic effect it has in allowing a Cam change to be effective on the low-comp engines ?

So just somewhat surprised if the OP's chief complaint is still poor power ? let be for a moment that this thread was originally about better power in a smogger 440 ?
and,
that the Auto Trans calved and had to be rebuilt anyways.... that a Saturday Night Special type T/Convertor(cheap $) wasn't added to allow the low-pop 440 some room to run into the power band given the low/off idle characteristic is the weakest point ?
Especially since EFI($$$$) is now contemplated that dumps power even worse in the low-pop Engines ? 

I mean I apologize for the rant....
but somebody couldn't be doing a better job of going slower... slower... and slower with a low-pop 440 if they were trying to do just that ?
Because or the price of the EFI....
a guy could swap in a XE268 Comp or a Crower 271 HDP Cam & Lifters..... AND The Saturday Night Special type Convertor.... and see a real and dramatic improvement in get up and GO ?
Makes NO sense to me ?

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 14, 2020, 03:56:55 PM
2006 2500 hd lt2 tow package.  6.0 gas. Powerbraking stock they  flash at 2800 due to pcm torque management but from a roll it flashes at 3. I have a programmer, no cats and full exhaust.

Odd, appears to just be downshifting.  I've calibrated a ton of those trucks. With torque management removed they foot brake/flash to 1600 at best.

Have also installed a ton of 2800-3200 converters in them which are noticeably looser (though still not too loose for normal driving)

Quote from: INTMD8 on October 15, 2020, 08:06:08 AM

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 14, 2020, 03:56:55 PM
2006 2500 hd lt2 tow package.  6.0 gas. Powerbraking stock they  flash at 2800 due to pcm torque management but from a roll it flashes at 3. I have a programmer, no cats and full exhaust.

Odd, appears to just be downshifting.  I've calibrated a ton of those trucks. With torque management removed they foot brake/flash to 1600 at best.

Have also installed a ton of 2800-3200 converters in them which are noticeably looser (though still not too loose for normal driving)

I assure you, it is a factory converter from gm for this model. The downshift is clear when it goes from 3 to 3500. Stock stall for this model is 2600-2800. The 1600 is not non hd/ earlier 4l80s. 05 and 06 hd 4l80s with tow and snow plow prep get the loose one.

Just took these. Cant foot brake it over 2500, spins the tires. 2nd video has it in 2nd gear rolling into it as i wasnt sure if it would stay in 2nd. Plain as day what the tach says. No downshifts. 2800ish+ on a cold trans. Gm part number 12491334

https://youtu.be/bFWRjZpjGSQ

https://youtu.be/KdLaukB-w70

So I probably should have told you folks. The transmission guy told me the converter in the car was
Street Master 24-25 He said it was a 2500 stall speed and actually a pretty good converter and looked fairly new.

So I left it.

I get Challenger340  frustration. I Was sort of just writing down what I have been doing to the car in this thread.

But I probably should have been a little more informative of my intentions on this car. I intend to drive it like a daily driver. I have been into gasoline my entire life and the only thing Dodge I have owned before this charger is a 2004 Dodge Dakota 4x4 with a V8, that my wife wants me to get rid of and I will never ever ever ever get rid of. I love that truck. It has been rock solid and I beat the living piss out of it.

Anyway the EFI is more for reliability. I have used a sniper before and it improved my gas mileage, made the car more reliable to drive, and actually gave me more umphhh. I might have been that it more responsive but it did make the car more enjoyable to drive.

The issue I am having is I have that Tesla and have been spoiled by it. One of the GTOs I have has all QA1 Suspension viking coilovers an EZ EFI I spent close to 11K on suspension, brakes and chasis on it. I thought the car was awesome and so did everyone else who has driven it and I loved driving it until I got spoiled by the Tesla. Now I think it is a dog of an old car and it still handles like it is on rails. That Tesla has just over 730HP and it is all wheel drive. I took it to Sears point about 2 years ago and my best was 11.342 at 114MPH. That was with all my bullsh1t in the car. I have tried to make the car break loose at 50 mph on a corner and it hugged the road like stripper on a pole in Las Vegas. It is an amazing car. It has just spoiled me

So I want to drive this Charger and actually enjoy it. Not keep it int he garage and rub it with a cloth diaper on weekends. I would like to get a little more pep out of eventually. But for now it is was just fine until the brakes went out but it was a perfect opportunity to swap them over to disks. and redo all the suspension since it is largely apart.

I am not a complete idiot with engines. Just not sharp on older Mopars. SO I do appreciate the Mopar expertise you are all providing me. I think once all the suspension and brakes are all finished up I will just get the engine from the guy down in LA and drop it in sans edelbrock kit.

Then later on when I retire or as a present for one of the kids graduation in 15 years I will take the car apart and build a true monster out of it. But for the immediate I just want something that is good enough.

And for the record... Those lower control arm bushings are a pain in the ass to remove and press back in.

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 15, 2020, 12:31:43 PM
Just took these. Cant foot brake it over 2500, spins the tires. 2nd video has it in 2nd gear rolling into it as i wasnt sure if it would stay in 2nd. Plain as day what the tach says. No downshifts. 2800ish+ on a cold trans. Gm part number 12491334

https://youtu.be/bFWRjZpjGSQ

https://youtu.be/KdLaukB-w70

Yes that 4l80 converter is probably the highest stock stall you can find. More like 2200-2300 rather than 3000 anyway, from a roll doesn't really mean anything.  I think if you scanned it you would be surprised to see the difference between the factory tach and what it actually is. Also can just log TCC slip

change the pistons would be the first step to get at least the same "glory" from the older days... then the rest accordingly to your wishes/needs

( which has been said from the begining )

Quote from: INTMD8 on October 16, 2020, 07:36:09 AM

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 15, 2020, 12:31:43 PM
Just took these. Cant foot brake it over 2500, spins the tires. 2nd video has it in 2nd gear rolling into it as i wasnt sure if it would stay in 2nd. Plain as day what the tach says. No downshifts. 2800ish+ on a cold trans. Gm part number 12491334

https://youtu.be/bFWRjZpjGSQ

https://youtu.be/KdLaukB-w70

Yes that 4l80 converter is probably the highest stock stall you can find. More like 2200-2300 rather than 3000 anyway, from a roll doesn't really mean anything.  I think if you scanned it you would be surprised to see the difference between the factory tach and what it actually is. Also can just log TCC slip

Not following the continued disbelief. It is rated from gm as 2600-2800. Try a quick internet search. My tach is accurate and i have logged data on the modis. It is not turning 2200. The roll is important here as i have not eliminated torque management which pulls power in the situation.

You're not following, ok.  First it's 3000, then it's, won't footbrake over 2500, then it's 2600-2800 from a roll.

From a roll you would need to log TCC slip, whatever the rpm is means nothing.  If you ran it up to 50 in 2nd you could say it's a 4000 converter.

Brake tq management is not limiting flash rpm if the limitation is tire spin. What would more power do other than spin the tires even more?

Your tach may be accurate but most are not.

That and, your truck is programmed to idle at 575rpm and your tach shows it at 800+.

The continued disbelief is because you said your truck came with a 3000 converter stock and it didn't because none of them did, that's all.

Anyway, sorry OP for taking this off track and good luck with the combo, you got some good advice here.

Quote from: INTMD8 on October 16, 2020, 05:07:09 PM
You're not following, ok.  First it's 3000, then it's, won't footbrake over 2500, then it's 2600-2800 from a roll.

From a roll you would need to log TCC slip, whatever the rpm is means nothing.  If you ran it up to 50 in 2nd you could say it's a 4000 converter.

Brake tq management is not limiting flash rpm if the limitation is tire spin. What would more power do other than spin the tires even more?

Your tach may be accurate but most are not.

That and, your truck is programmed to idle at 575rpm and your tach shows it at 800+.

The continued disbelief is because you said your truck came with a 3000 converter stock and it didn't because none of them did, that's all.

Anyway, sorry OP for taking this off track and good luck with the combo, you got some good advice here.

And you said its a 1600, that no trucks came with looser converters. I could take video off the scanner and you would still argue against it. I clearly stated stock flashes 2600-2800. I gave you the part number. It is common knowledge and a quick internet search would confirm the numbers against other truck owners. Call gm and tell them they are wrong. The quick videos i took with it  from a roll gets it out of the torque management window. Clearly i was not rolling the rpm up to make false claims or make it downshift as you stated. I have an 8" converter in my charger that will footbrake to 6,000. However i can spin the tires at 2,000. Does that now mean its only a 2,000 converter?

Edit again. I've been thinking about this and to be honest, I feel like I react to you unfairly based on past interaction.

For that I apologize.  If you like, send me your truck ecu and I'll program out/or reduce the torque management and change whatever else you like.

Or pm me more details about it and I may have one on the shelf I could flash for you. (if that's something you would even care about).

Quote from: tonyskala on October 16, 2020, 12:46:55 AM
So I probably should have told you folks. The transmission guy told me the converter in the car was
Street Master 24-25 He said it was a 2500 stall speed and actually a pretty good converter and looked fairly new.

So I left it.

I'm calling BULLSH*T on your Trans Guy..... and this thread
  how in the world that Convertor miraculously got behind a sagged smogger 440 all by itself that was running poorly..... is more than just a little fairy tale'ish.

Because if it was a 24-2500 stall ?
you wouldn't be here complaining about power, and the smogger would roast the hynnies when tasked outa the hole.

And Sniper EFI's have reliability issues behind any engine that spews any hydrocarbons.... ie: oil burners, or even tired engines with blowby where at least 'some' HC's are sneaking past = keeps throwing the O2 out and into closed/open loop dumping the learn.
That's why EFO don't work real well on the smogger low-pop 440's because they always did pollute somewhat especially with any miles on them ?

I smell someone in the background here filling ur head with a bunch of horse pitooee BS ? and pipedreams ?
THAT....  or you already have ur own precieved fantasies of how things work, so fill ur boots, .....  so I'm out..... IMO, you are going to spend nothing but money going nowhere fast.

here a converter stall chart for later engines. Can't tell the year of this FSM, but since it appears the 360, must be of course 74 and lates. Stock stall converter for HiPo was already rated on that rate your car supossely has. But Chrysler just used 2 or 3 convertors for all the engines, just reacting different behind certain engines.

Sure some aftermarket TCs will respond better than stock units.

The pic above is one of mine and it's '78 model year.

'77 was the last year for the 11 3/4" converter and '74 was the first year the 10 3/4" converter was used behind the 440 HP. As the chart shows, factory rated stall speeds were close to 3000 even in a smogged 440.

The '75 chart below shows the difference in stall speed the smaller converter makes.

:2thumbs:

I thought it was 77 or so because the 318 HI ALT which I think was 4 bbls and used on M bodies ?

Quote from: INTMD8 on October 16, 2020, 06:50:16 PM
Edit again. I've been thinking about this and to be honest, I feel like I react to you unfairly based on past interaction.

For that I apologize.  If you like, send me your truck ecu and I'll program out/or reduce the torque management and change whatever else you like.

Or pm me more details about it and I may have one on the shelf I could flash for you. (if that's something you would even care about).

No problem. Sometimes its hard to follow conversations and intentions when it is via keyboard. I have not changed to a custom tune on this truck yet as i am putting long tubes on it but have not installed tyem yet. Appreciate the offer.

Quote from: Challenger340 on October 17, 2020, 04:38:20 AM

Quote from: tonyskala on October 16, 2020, 12:46:55 AM
So I probably should have told you folks. The transmission guy told me the converter in the car was
Street Master 24-25 He said it was a 2500 stall speed and actually a pretty good converter and looked fairly new.

So I left it.

I'm calling BULLSH*T on your Trans Guy..... and this thread
  how in the world that Convertor miraculously got behind a sagged smogger 440 all by itself that was running poorly..... is more than just a little fairy tale'ish.

Because if it was a 24-2500 stall ?
you wouldn't be here complaining about power, and the smogger would roast the hynnies when tasked outa the hole.

And Sniper EFI's have reliability issues behind any engine that spews any hydrocarbons.... ie: oil burners, or even tired engines with blowby where at least 'some' HC's are sneaking past = keeps throwing the O2 out and into closed/open loop dumping the learn.
That's why EFO don't work real well on the smogger low-pop 440's because they always did pollute somewhat especially with any miles on them ?

I smell someone in the background here filling ur head with a bunch of horse pitooee BS ? and pipedreams ?
THAT....  or you already have ur own precieved fantasies of how things work, so fill ur boots, .....  so I'm out..... IMO, you are going to spend nothing but money going nowhere fast.

Agreed. Lots of red flags.

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 17, 2020, 04:11:45 PM

Quote from: INTMD8 on October 16, 2020, 06:50:16 PM
Edit again. I've been thinking about this and to be honest, I feel like I react to you unfairly based on past interaction.

For that I apologize.  If you like, send me your truck ecu and I'll program out/or reduce the torque management and change whatever else you like.

Or pm me more details about it and I may have one on the shelf I could flash for you. (if that's something you would even care about).

No problem. Sometimes its hard to follow conversations and intentions when it is via keyboard. I have not changed to a custom tune on this truck yet as i am putting long tubes on it but have not installed tyem yet. Appreciate the offer.

Well if you put the longtubes on and want rear o2's gone or whatever else, just let me know

Well thanks for participating. Not that you need my permission to leave or continue to participate but go with God, Alah, Jehova, FSM, or nothing. I appreciated the effort regardless.

I was not there when he separated it. I asked about putting in a higher stall torque converter. He said it was pretty new and it was fine and could be reused.

So I think I mentioned, I got the car from a consignment center. My brother law and I think that it was in a partial state of assembly when the fella passed away and his wife hired a someone to get it running and try to sell it. But what was odd was the work that had been done looked really good and there were lots of quality parts. Really nice stainless exhaust, good headers, gen1 Petronix, MDS ignition, Accell wires, the shorty spark plugs, the spark plug blankets, most of the bolts were ARP, had an orbital yellow top battery,  the interior was all redone and looks really really good 8/10 and the paint is actually really nice, 8/10.. especially for being black.

But when we got it, the manifold discolored after like 30 min of running it hard. Then we looked at the sealants and they look pretty fresh. The carb on it was a 600cfm and it really looked like someone stepped in and just made it run, threw some paint on it to mak eit look nice.
But someone prior was taking their time with it and putting some real effort, time and money into it.

So I dont know what was done to the car prior. I only know what I saw I have. And I was expecting a little more from a 440. So appreciate the comments, but you dont have to get angry. I only know what I was told and what I saw I have. I am trying to do the car justice. In my opinion it doesn't measure to my expectations of a 440 and compression that low and that much discrepancy in numbers between the cylinders no matter what brand you like Ford, Chevy, or Dodge is problematic.

I get some folks just dont like EFi and I am not trying to convert anyone. I have had both and EFI and multiple carbs and they both worked well for me. On 2 cars I had efi and it was pretty good once past the tuning. And the 4 barrel carb worked really well on a Pontiac.


So when I was in Iraq part of my route was Taji. There was a broken Army m1a2 that had a destroyed Fuel Control Module. It actually got burne when they got pelted with 1 gallon containers filled with diesel and fuel and set on fire. They could not get this part and that tank was effectively out of commission because of the module. Well I happened to know that the FCM was the same thing for the m1a2 engine that was in the marine Super Cobra and I happen to know some engines that just came out of phase at Balad. So I told the mechanic and he did not believe me. I tried explaining although they had different nsn's the only difference was the tank ecm was not rated for flight. So when I got back to Balad I asked the marine maintenance officer if I could fill out the card and canabilize the part. He did not care as long as I filled out the paperwork and signed for it. So I did and 2 days later I brought the FCM to the maintenance fella at Taji. He said just becuase it looked the same did not mean it would work. So since they had the power pack out any way they bolted the FCM on and dropped in the power pack. it is pretty modular and they do it all the time. So it doesn tno take a huge amonut of effort.  It started up and worked. They drove it around..... tried diesel, and jp8 and it kept working. They called the commander down and explained that some flight captain brought them an aviation part to make the tank work. Would he sign off on the paper work and release the tank from maintenance. A working tank is better than no tank. So he tranfered the part and relesaed the tank. Now why am I telling you this story. because later when that tank went to depot for overhaul there was a part on it that was not supposed to be on it let alone making the thing work. Point is I know transmatic told me the stall on that thing was 2500 and I did not need to change it. I dont know how it got in there but that is what the dude told me. I guess he could have lied because it was a friday when i went to get the car and maybe he wanted the floor space. Or maybe the torque converter that was in there was the one he told me was in there. I dont know. I dont know why the carb for this thing was a 600 and there was no air cleaner. I dont know why he has a 400 dollar blue tooth stereo in the thing with monster cable but only 1 speaker that is a 6x9 realistic.... Yeah from radio shack.

So anyway. Not trying to be a jerk. I reference this thread more than you think and I appreciated the advice from all of you regardless of tone or believability.

No problem, not angry.....
Been Machining/Building/Assembling and Dyno'ing 440/426 Hemi Mopar Hot Rod/Drag Engines at my Shop for some of the best in North America going on 40 years now.... and getting paid very well to do so ?
and yes....
we Sell Sniper EFI Kits regularly to the Street/Resto crowd.... LOTS of them !

Just say'in.....and in my opinion only
you do whatever you feel is right.... which it seems you are gonna do no matter what anybody else says including me.

example:
This thread is about a 440 smogger 'NO POWER.
I relate to you we did a lot of drag strip testing on a smogger 440 back in the day..... and one of the BIGGEST performance gains was the addition of a Saturday Night Special style T/Convertor .... which really allowed the smogger in conjunction with a small Cam to HIT into it's powerband.
Miraculously..... your Car already has one ! Because your Trans guy said so right ?

I attempt to tell you we've had Customer's who have experienced poor results installing Sniper EFI systems on worn/sacked out/high mile smogger 440's....just relating our opinion/experience only...and because I thought the Exhaust HC pollutants escaping pollute the O2 and dump the CPU learn, more as a 'caution' for you to consider in assessing your 'NO POWER' 440 beforehand than anything ?
And again miraculously.....
YOU categorize me as someone who may not like EFI and YOU 'get it' ?
because as you say....
I get some folks just dont like EFi and I am not trying to convert anyone. I have had both and EFI and multiple carbs and they both worked well for me. On 2 cars I had efi and it was pretty good once past the tuning. And the 4 barrel carb worked really well on a Pontiac

I ain't 'some folks'... I Sell LOTS the Sniper EFI Kits at my Shop ?
all I was trying to do as someone with experience on feedback from Customers.... was warn you to assess the 440 Engine condition thoroughly to avoid a potential pitfall before spending $$ on EFI ?
How that gets construed in your mind that I potentially may not like EFI is beyond me ?
All I know.....  is it seems to me anyways....  that you maybe are not 'hearing' what others are saying in trying to help you ?

Fill ur Boots !
Just say'in.....
I ain't trying to be a jerk here either, nor am I angry..... just wish you GOOD LUCK with your 440 project OK ? Carry on !

BTW,
Do you know where geographically two of the M1A1 Turbine Engines were shipped by truck convoy for R & D on the Fuel Control System upgrade back in the mid 1990's ?
Hint: out of country to a friendly ally.

An nsn is just a military assigned stock number. As you stated, the parts were actually the same. Not the same story on the converters in the car. I too am a former abrams mechanic l, actually test officer. I wrote many 9f the books you were using to repair them. Out of curiosity because you used several terms along the story- what actual part did you replace? And my personal best for power pack removal from engine shutdown to on the ground is 6 minutes- alone.

And my personal best for power pack removal from engine shutdown to on the ground is 6 minutes- alone. Yeah, right. :smilielol:

Quote from: ACUDANUT on October 20, 2020, 06:19:18 PM
And my personal best for power pack removal from engine shutdown to on the ground is 6 minutes- alone. Yeah, right. :smilielol:

No reason to lie. When you are supporting a test running 7 days a week, 14 hour shifts over night and its running smooth. You get bored. Its not hard to remove the powerpack from an abrams. It is modular and designed to be done quick and efficiently. Im sure our OP can attest to that.

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 20, 2020, 12:19:30 PM
An nsn is just a military assigned stock number. As you stated, the parts were actually the same. Not the same story on the converters in the car. I too am a former abrams mechanic l, actually test officer. I wrote many 9f the books you were using to repair them. Out of curiosity because you used several terms along the story- what actual part did you replace? And my personal best for power pack removal from engine shutdown to on the ground is 6 minutes- alone.

Oh it appears i miss led you I am not a heavy vehicle mechanic. I was a flight platoon leader and later a maintenance test pilot. I happened to have stumbled on that part swap info out of sheer luck.

I was the 2nd from last class at Fort Rucker that went through BCS in a UH1. One day we were hovering on a pad at Lowe about to leave on a training flight. My instructor pilot noticed this other instructor pilot and his students jumping up and down trying to get our attention before we took off. My IP told me to set it down and the other IP started running over and his students had fire extinguishers. My IP opened his door and the the other IP had a real short conversation with him at the end of which my IP said "emergency engine shut down", So I started doing it and he cut he fuel. They brought a tug and dolly out and took the aircraft off the pad and long story short There was something called a FUEL CONTROL MODULE that was installed by Dynacorp ( Civilian Maintenance ) that was not rated for flight. Turns out they did it on a few aircraft because they get bonus for aircraft uptime. The UH1 power train is virtually identical to the Abrams, and the old Army Cobras. The Marine Zulu model cobras are essentially the same as well but they have 2 engines and fully articulated rotors. I happened to be in the room when they were talking about it and thought that was pretty innovative that the power train was applied to the tanks and helicopters. Apparently the parts can traverse from aviation to ground applications with out any issue, But the inverse is not allowed. So we probably did more harm than good because that part could never be used in aviation again. They have extremely accurate time before overhaul logs for aviation. I think later revisions this part was upgraded to a digital component called digital engine control module (decu). This was about 15 years ago.

Quote from: tonyskala on October 26, 2020, 03:22:34 AM

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 20, 2020, 12:19:30 PM
An nsn is just a military assigned stock number. As you stated, the parts were actually the same. Not the same story on the converters in the car. I too am a former abrams mechanic l, actually test officer. I wrote many 9f the books you were using to repair them. Out of curiosity because you used several terms along the story- what actual part did you replace? And my personal best for power pack removal from engine shutdown to on the ground is 6 minutes- alone.

Oh it appears i miss led you I am not a heavy vehicle mechanic. I was a flight platoon leader and later a maintenance test pilot. I happened to have stumbled on that part swap info out of sheer luck.

I was the 2nd from last class at Fort Rucker that went through BCS in a UH1. One day we were hovering on a pad at Lowe about to leave on a training flight. My instructor pilot noticed this other instructor pilot and his students jumping up and down trying to get our attention before we took off. My IP told me to set it down and the other IP started running over and his students had fire extinguishers. My IP opened his door and the the other IP had a real short conversation with him at the end of which my IP said "emergency engine shut down", So I started doing it and he cut he fuel. They brought a tug and dolly out and took the aircraft off the pad and long story short There was something called a FUEL CONTROL MODULE that was installed by Dynacorp ( Civilian Maintenance ) that was not rated for flight. Turns out they did it on a few aircraft because they get bonus for aircraft uptime. The UH1 power train is virtually identical to the Abrams, and the old Army Cobras. The Marine Zulu model cobras are essentially the same as well but they have 2 engines and fully articulated rotors. I happened to be in the room when they were talking about it and thought that was pretty innovative that the power train was applied to the tanks and helicopters. Apparently the parts can traverse from aviation to ground applications with out any issue, But the inverse is not allowed. So we probably did more harm than good because that part could never be used in aviation again. They have extremely accurate time before overhaul logs for aviation. I think later revisions this part was upgraded to a digital component called digital engine control module (decu). This was about 15 years ago.

So were you were a rotory Pilot ?

Quote from: tonyskala on October 26, 2020, 03:22:34 AM

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 20, 2020, 12:19:30 PM
An nsn is just a military assigned stock number. As you stated, the parts were actually the same. Not the same story on the converters in the car. I too am a former abrams mechanic l, actually test officer. I wrote many 9f the books you were using to repair them. Out of curiosity because you used several terms along the story- what actual part did you replace? And my personal best for power pack removal from engine shutdown to on the ground is 6 minutes- alone.

Oh it appears i miss led you I am not a heavy vehicle mechanic. I was a flight platoon leader and later a maintenance test pilot. I happened to have stumbled on that part swap info out of sheer luck.

I was the 2nd from last class at Fort Rucker that went through BCS in a UH1. One day we were hovering on a pad at Lowe about to leave on a training flight. My instructor pilot noticed this other instructor pilot and his students jumping up and down trying to get our attention before we took off. My IP told me to set it down and the other IP started running over and his students had fire extinguishers. My IP opened his door and the the other IP had a real short conversation with him at the end of which my IP said "emergency engine shut down", So I started doing it and he cut he fuel. They brought a tug and dolly out and took the aircraft off the pad and long story short There was something called a FUEL CONTROL MODULE that was installed by Dynacorp ( Civilian Maintenance ) that was not rated for flight. Turns out they did it on a few aircraft because they get bonus for aircraft uptime. The UH1 power train is virtually identical to the Abrams, and the old Army Cobras. The Marine Zulu model cobras are essentially the same as well but they have 2 engines and fully articulated rotors. I happened to be in the room when they were talking about it and thought that was pretty innovative that the power train was applied to the tanks and helicopters. Apparently the parts can traverse from aviation to ground applications with out any issue, But the inverse is not allowed. So we probably did more harm than good because that part could never be used in aviation again. They have extremely accurate time before overhaul logs for aviation. I think later revisions this part was upgraded to a digital component called digital engine control module (decu). This was about 15 years ago.

The t53 is nowhere near the same as the agt 1500. 600 hp vs 1500 hp. Not even in the same category. It was originally designed for much larger aircraft but lost the military competiton bid so they redesigned it for use in the next test as the powerplant for chrysler's xm1.... and the rest is history. While some of the components are interchangeable, to say it is nearly identical to the uh1 t53 is not accurate. I built and tested many agts over the years.