I'm building the 383 that came with my '70 Charger project. It is a .030 overbore with Speed Pro pistons and iron heads. I picked a Comp Cams 270/470 hydraulic flat tappet cam for it.
Yesterday I went to install the cam. I always go overboard with the assembly lube just as a precaution. This time I held the end of the cam with my left hand and smeared the lube on with my right, holding the lobes like a baseball bat. While spinning the cam slowly, I felt a few sharp edges.
There are raised edges on 7 of the lobes, some sharp enough to cut skin. You can see where there is fabric from the towel I used to clean off the assembly lube.
My first thought was that I could just take a file and grind down the edges to clean it up.
Screw that....I shouldn't have to.
What if I cut through the hardening treatment and put myself at risk of early failure? What if I slipped and nicked something?
If I had just installed this dry and then poured the cam lube on in place, I would have missed this. The rough edges would have chewed up the lifters and the metal shavings could have ended up shredding the bearings.
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 09, 2020, 12:11:20 PM
My first thought was that I could just take a file and grind down the edges to clean it up.
Screw that....I shouldn't have to.
What if I cut through the hardening treatment and put myself at risk of early failure? What if I slipped and nicked something?
If I had just installed this dry and then poured the cam lube on in place, I would have missed this. The rough edges would have chewed up the lifters and the metal shavings could have ended up shredding the bearings.
I always debur a cam in those areas
I would be on the horn to comp right away..
Quote from: cdr on October 09, 2020, 12:35:02 PM
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 09, 2020, 12:11:20 PM
My first thought was that I could just take a file and grind down the edges to clean it up.
Screw that....I shouldn't have to.
What if I cut through the hardening treatment and put myself at risk of early failure? What if I slipped and nicked something?
If I had just installed this dry and then poured the cam lube on in place, I would have missed this. The rough edges would have chewed up the lifters and the metal shavings could have ended up shredding the bearings.
I always debur a cam in those areas
Yeah?
This is the first time that I have seen sloppy work like this. I understand file fitting rings but this isn't right.
Yeah, this one is going back.
From the pics it looks like the sharp edges extent outward away from the actual lifter mating surface. Unless they're flimsy enough to break off and cause debris, shouldn't be a problem; but not pleasing to the eye.
I slipped a used cam in the block and looked down the lifter bores. As expected, the lifters ride just a bit off center toward the front. The lobes here are bad on both sides so I'd expect that some trouble could arise by using the cam as it is.
Quality control is not what it used to be. Just about every part you buy needs some finish work.
Does anyone know typically how deep the "Parkerizing" treatment goes into the metal?
I'm not using this cam, I am just curious about this procedure. If someone were to have this cam and decided to knock down the rough casting flash, would they likely cut through whatever hardening treatment there is? If so, wouldn't that lead to some type of failure?
Here's a new replacement cam designed by Comp.
The above might have some comic appeal but I actually saw this done....not to actually run, but to act as a pattern for a camshaft grinder. The finished cam was used to make a Corvair engine turn backwards for use in a Volkswagen Microbus.
This swap was pretty common "in the day" but to compensate for the "wrong-way turning" Corvair, most people would just flip the ring gear in the Volkswagen differential but this lead to premature wear. Making the Corvair turn backwards was more practical.
Quote from: Mopar Nut on October 10, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
Here's a new replacement cam designed by Comp.
Pro stocks Motorcycle use this type of cam
I guess that short of stumbling across a known good used cam, I am going to look at other brands.
I've watched episodes of ROADKILL lately and am really wanting to get this car ready for some street and dirt trail action.
Yeah, I know...It sounds blasphemous to take a Charger off the pavement but that stuff is SO much fun!
Call jimmy at racer brown.
I tried at 11:00 this morning, no answer. A guy at FBBO wrote that his hours of operation is 2:00 to 7:00.....He must be SEMI-retired, huh ? :shruggy:
He is an odd character, but makes a great cam. If you cant get ahold of him, isky is my next choice.
I'm done buying cams from Comp or Lunati. In my 440, I ran into similar stuff. I bought a Lunati that would cut your skin with the sharp edges. I went through 2 cams before I switched to a 20 year old cam. The old cam broke in easily and did not have sharp edges or any irregularities. We are now the quality control people with a lot of new parts unfortunately.
It is "normal" anymore. Ive yet to see a new mopar oil pump that was ready to use. Always burred with sharp edges. Cams, heads. Just about everything you buy.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 22, 2020, 02:15:47 PM
It is "normal" anymore. Ive yet to see a new mopar oil pump that was ready to use. Always burred with sharp edges. Cams, heads. Just about everything you buy.
I saw the same thing with my new oil pump. My bypass valve was actually stuck in the bore. The inside of the pump was filthy as well.
Quote from: John Milner on October 22, 2020, 02:18:52 PM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 22, 2020, 02:15:47 PM
It is "normal" anymore. Ive yet to see a new mopar oil pump that was ready to use. Always burred with sharp edges. Cams, heads. Just about everything you buy.
I saw the same thing with my new oil pump. My bypass valve was actually stuck in the bore. The inside of the pump was filthy as well.
Melling, right?
Quote from: BSB67 on October 22, 2020, 07:59:56 PM
Quote from: John Milner on October 22, 2020, 02:18:52 PM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 22, 2020, 02:15:47 PM
It is "normal" anymore. Ive yet to see a new mopar oil pump that was ready to use. Always burred with sharp edges. Cams, heads. Just about everything you buy.
I saw the same thing with my new oil pump. My bypass valve was actually stuck in the bore. The inside of the pump was filthy as well.
Melling, right?
Yes it was a Melling.
I guess I'm not as shocked by the quality of the parts as many of you seem to be ?
Probably because as an machine shop/engine builder we've being seeing the slow migration downward in parts quality for a very long time.... and not just CAMS but on many parts, to the point where much of what many of you are now noticing, is pretty much.... and has been for quite awhile..... 'normal' for us to see ?
IMHO....
1.) I don't think it gets much better from here on lower numerical replacement parts for engines that have been out of production for many decades ? Let's face reality, BB Mopars have been gone for 40+ years.... and Flat Tappet Cams gone in general for what ? 30 years on most makes ?
and
2.) Sry to say it, but we've seen it across many manufacturers, and there doesn't seem to be any 'magic bullet' ONE manufacturer a guy can switch to and will guarantee wonderful quality at all times ? Just say'in.... they can ALL be inconsistent quality from anybody, sometimes even week to week, month to month.
Check.... Check.... Check..... that's all anyone can do ?
And understand that the "liabilities' for Shops has become absolutely HUGE because even then after check/check and even checking some more..... there can even still be hidden flaws in metallurgy.
* Seen Oil Filters of late that when cut apart to check after run-in on the Dyno.... that HALF the paper element was missing ! That's REAL nice to show a customer after taking it off his Engine we've just broken in on the Dyno ? Luckily HE supplied his own Oil Filters, they were HIS !
* 350 Chebby Oil Pump rotors that just "BREAK" while doing Cam run-in...... and when removed you could lightly tap the remaining pieces with a hammer and shatter them ? Like WTF is THAT ?
* Pushrods that you can drop on the floor and the tip squirts out the end across the floor...
* Pin-Fits on Custom Order $1500 Piston sets.... 7 are fine... ONE is at .003" !..... or the pin-Fit is fine(.001") perpendicular on all 8 but then rotate vertical and it's out to .0025" clrc ?
* Rod Bearings from the same set that you have to mix-match halves to maintain Vertical Clrc on Rods within .0005" of each other.... YES, the Rod Big Ends are dead nuts !
I won't even begin on some of the Crank Grinds present on some of these 'El Cheapo Stroker Kits.... because NO idea how some of that crap even runs ? But I guess they do as many just screw them together(albeit later report problems)
And I give up trying to phone any Manu and tell them what we've found with their products ? All I ever get is "First we've ever heard of it".... which is just BULLSH*T because sometimes I've been calling to report I found ANOTHER 2nd Part with the same DEFECT ! "First we've ever heard of it"... to which I then say " that's what you said last Month when I reported it before... you got a short memory" ?
And the Manu's know damn well what's going on....
but it's like this.... if they build 100 parts knowing 10-15 are mostly doggy-doo, but only 1-2 of those 10-15 are likely to get caught or returned ? The shareholders WIN and somebody gets a BONUS ! Yippee !
I've even phoned... reported a problem with a part, offered to ship it back on my nickel for them to inspect.... only to hear "nah.... first we've heard of it.... BUT... we'll just ship you a new part anyway Bob" WTF ??
All I'm saying is this.... and in my opinion only,
these days.... I think you can receive garbage/junk/poor quality parts from just about any manufacturer, even the ones who stuff was fine the month before ? and even sometimes HIGHER more expensive money spent is no guarantee of quality either ?
carry on.... my apologies for the rant.... and if your Cam doesn't pass the 'lint test' or has a sharp edge ? Get USED TO IT Maybe ?
So did you return it for a refund...did they give you any grief?? :popcrn:
Quote from: John Milner on October 22, 2020, 08:45:15 AM
I'm done buying cams from Comp or Lunati. In my 440, I ran into similar stuff. I bought a Lunati that would cut your skin with the sharp edges. I went through 2 cams before I switched to a 20 year old cam. The old cam broke in easily and did not have sharp edges or any irregularities. We are now the quality control people with a lot of new parts unfortunately.
For the record.....
I believe there are only 2 remaining Flat Tappet Cam Core foundries operating in the USA.... which may even only be
one left in the USA by now ?
Meaning,
no matter where you get a Flat Tappet Cam from..... if there is a metallurgical flaw that's causing problems during grinding it can be ground/delivered in any Manufacturer's "Box" because they all buy the CAM CORES from the same place ?
Quote from: AKcharger on October 23, 2020, 08:02:00 AM
So did you return it for a refund...did they give you any grief?? :popcrn:
I returned it and politely declined a replacement. I am going to use a USED MP 280/474 that comes with the original lifters from the original position.
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 23, 2020, 08:11:02 AM
Quote from: AKcharger on October 23, 2020, 08:02:00 AM
So did you return it for a refund...did they give you any grief?? :popcrn:
I returned it and politely declined a replacement. I am going to use a USED MP 280/474 that comes with the original lifters from the original position.
Were you able to return it directly back to Comp Cams ? or just to the retailer who Sold it to you ?
Just say'in....
GOOD for you if it was sent right back to Comp Cams, because maybe if more people did(a few thousand) they might begin to cleanup their act ?
Quote from: Challenger340 on October 23, 2020, 08:00:29 AM
and if your Cam doesn't pass the 'lint test' or has a sharp edge ? Get USED TO IT Maybe ?
Still don't see the foul from a functional standpoint. :shruggy:
Quote from: John_Kunkel on October 23, 2020, 11:07:36 AM
Quote from: Challenger340 on October 23, 2020, 08:00:29 AM
and if your Cam doesn't pass the 'lint test' or has a sharp edge ? Get USED TO IT Maybe ?
Still don't see the foul from a functional standpoint. :shruggy:
Ive pulled them out of the box with burrs that would contact the lifters.
Quote from: Challenger340 on October 23, 2020, 08:22:16 AM
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 23, 2020, 08:11:02 AM
Quote from: AKcharger on October 23, 2020, 08:02:00 AM
So did you return it for a refund...did they give you any grief?? :popcrn:
I returned it and politely declined a replacement. I am going to use a USED MP 280/474 that comes with the original lifters from the original position.
Were you able to return it directly back to Comp Cams ? or just to the retailer who Sold it to you ?
Just say'in....
GOOD for you if it was sent right back to Comp Cams, because maybe if more people did(a few thousand) they might begin to cleanup their act ?
I got it from Summit Racing.
The lint test....
Since the the lifters ride up to the edge and because there were 7 lobes with sharp edges....I could have filed down the edges, taking a chance of slipping or maybe cutting through the surface hardening. How would that have been a good thing? These edges were vertical, not horizontal past the side of the lobes.
Summit also sold me a defective oil pump that had pin holes in the new casting. Oil was squirting and spraying everywhere. :brickwall:
A question from someone who is not an engine builder, but is considering a cam swap on a 10:1, 450 CI, e-headed engine near Baltimore. Is there a significant difference (would it be better) between proceeding with the comp XS282S that is recommended on other threads and inspecting and deburring if necessary, or seeing if I could talk with Jim at Racer Brown (from the discussion on the other thread) about a solid flat tapet?
Quote from: XH29N0G on October 24, 2020, 10:07:31 AM
A question from someone who is not an engine builder, but is considering a cam swap on a 10:1, 450 CI, e-headed engine near Baltimore. Is there a significant difference (would it be better) between proceeding with the comp XS282S that is recommended on other threads and inspecting and deburring if necessary, or seeing if I could talk with Jim at Racer Brown (from the discussion on the other thread) about a solid flat tapet?
Didnt realize you were in my neck of the woods, the bottom line is there will not be much difference in peak power on the dyno between jims grind and the comp grind. Not to take anything away from the xs282 as i have used it and it makes great power, but i feel jims grind is better and more precise. Splitting hairs? Yeah, probably, but i think its a better cam.
Thanks,
I gave the impression of being closer than I am. I am closer to Washington DC than Baltimore.
I think an hour and change away from you and just over 30 minutes from where Racer Brown is located.
Quote from: XH29N0G on October 25, 2020, 09:21:40 AM
Thanks,
I gave the impression of being closer than I am. I am closer to Washington DC than Baltimore.
I think an hour and change away from you and just over 30 minutes from where Racer Brown is located.
I only live 20 minutes from jimmy, and about an hour from downtown dc.
Quote from: XH29N0G on October 24, 2020, 10:07:31 AM
A question from someone who is not an engine builder, but is considering a cam swap on a 10:1, 450 CI, e-headed engine near Baltimore. Is there a significant difference (would it be better) between proceeding with the comp XS282S that is recommended on other threads and inspecting and deburring if necessary, or seeing if I could talk with Jim at Racer Brown (from the discussion on the other thread) about a solid flat tapet?
IMO, the XS282S is a great "Default" grind..... meaning if unsure about anything or which way to go it's always a good selection.
That said,
if you have accurate Cylinder Head flow data and some engine dynamics, some improvements in the Grind/Lobes particular to that data/application can always be made ?
Sry, not trying to confuse the issue.... just say'ing when building/modifying.... I believe 'output' on anything is only as good as the imput beforehand ?