I was browsing ebay for Charger parts and came across these, seems like good deal. No need for welding and they're powdercoated
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191012695928?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
I'd still weld them in anyway. :Twocents:
I don't see the point of mounting them unless they're welded. Bill440RT mentioned an epoxy or something that could be applied which becomes stronger than typical welds; maybe you could try that instead of welding...
The whole reason for installing frame connectors Is to stiffen frame. Weld em anyway.
yep , weld them in , waste of time & money other wise , :Twocents:
lot of fancy connectors about now for sale , just get two sutable lengths of 2"x2"x1/4" box , weld them :yesnod:
If the opportunity is there, then YES definitely weld them in. :yesnod:
I bolted them in combined with panel adhesive as they were installed as an afterthought on a fully painted underside. I used adhesive to provide some added strength over just bolting them in alone. There's NO WAY I would just use an adhesive in this application. Welding would be best. :yesnod:
I'm with everyone else on this one, mine are welded in ;)
I agree welding is best, but even bolt in connectors are better than nothing. Without sub-frame connectors that area of the car can easily deflect .38 to .5 inches on a torsional load. With bolts through a hole, how far can it move before the shoulder interferes, maybe .03. That's a big improvement.
I don't see point of welding them in since all they're supposed to do is connect front and back frame, prevent twisting
If you don't see the point of welding them, re-read Cooters comment.
Quote from: Silver R/T on December 30, 2013, 09:51:37 AM
I don't see point of welding them in since all they're supposed to do is connect front and back frame, prevent twisting
How would you feel about your Charger bolted together instead of spot welded?
Now, instead of weighing 4000lbs, it seighs 5500 lbs with all those bolts and rattles horridly.
Actually, they aren't designed to resist twisting. They originated on the drag strip to resist beaming which is the bending of the car in the middle. The additional torsion resistance is just a side benefit.
I'd like a better view of those connectors, I'm trying to sort out how they attach from the pics. :scratchchin:
I suspect those may be a case of "part pictured is only representative of the part your buying and may not be the actual piece."
Quote from: HPP on December 31, 2013, 10:51:24 AM
I suspect those may be a case of "part pictured is only representative of the part your buying and may not be the actual piece."
I'll try a search to the maker.... :scratchchin:
Pick up a set from US Car tool they are nice they are what I have on mine. http://store.uscartool.com/66-70-B-Body-frame-connectors.html
Those are the ones I think I want to get.
bolt them first then jack the car try to open and close the door. this should give you some indication. if no difference then weld them
http://www.competitionengineering.com/catalog/images/C3117_inst.pdf Here is a PDF of install instructions. :scratchchin:
As a part that is sold as "bolt in" they would natrually instruct on how to bolt them in. I would still wanted a set that were welded.
It does include a good diagram of how.
Yea it says "Weld in for race." in the PDF. I like the extra rear tie in detail also, seems stronger. I want to add some bolt in's sooner or later but only to sure up and old chassis, not for "Race". I want mine removable. :scratchchin:
I didn't even notice that part, I can understand wanting to be able to remove them.
How thick is the metal in the US Cartool connectors? Anybody know?
12 ga, I am about to instal mine, once my floor goes in. :2thumbs:
Quote from: b5blue on January 01, 2014, 05:19:30 PM
Yea it says "Weld in for race." in the PDF. I like the extra rear tie in detail also, seems stronger. I want to add some bolt in's sooner or later but only to sure up and old chassis, not for "Race". I want mine removable. :scratchchin:
If you're worried about bolts loosening up, use some lock-tite on treads.
Or nylocks.
Or weld. I think its much less about bolts loosening off than it is holes egging out onder stress.
Quote from: Ghoste on January 03, 2014, 12:33:26 PM
Or weld. I think its much less about bolts loosening off than it is holes egging out onder stress.
:yesnod: also as long as they are bolted in , they are not part of the car , need welding in , to do the job they are supposed to :Twocents:
Quote from: tan top on January 03, 2014, 12:54:07 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on January 03, 2014, 12:33:26 PM
Or weld. I think its much less about bolts loosening off than it is holes egging out onder stress.
:yesnod: also as long as they are bolted in , they are not part of the car , need welding in , to do the job they are supposed to :Twocents:
They are not part of the car if they are not welded? So do brakes need to be welded to the car as well since they're not the part of the car as they're bolted on.
As a structural member. Brakes are not a structural member.
Quote from: Ghoste on January 03, 2014, 01:00:10 PM
As a structural member. Brakes are not a structural member.
:yesnod:
Quote from: Silver R/T on January 03, 2014, 12:56:54 PM
Quote from: tan top on January 03, 2014, 12:54:07 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on January 03, 2014, 12:33:26 PM
Or weld. I think its much less about bolts loosening off than it is holes egging out onder stress.
:yesnod: also as long as they are bolted in , they are not part of the car , need welding in , to do the job they are supposed to :Twocents:
They are not part of the car if they are not welded? So do brakes need to be welded to the car as well since they're not the part of the car as they're bolted on.
yeah I know what your saying :yesnod: but your adding frame connectors to add rigidity to the carbody shell , only real way that can be done is welding them in , to become part of the car !
think of having a rusted out front or rear frame rails !! instead of spot welding / mig plugging new repoped AMD ones in , would you use nuts an bolts ? or glue ? same thing really
Playing Devil's Advocate here... why are people against bolting in subframe connectors yet don't advocate welding the k-frame in place? More concerned with straight line? During hard curves everything in front of the cowl turns to Jello so welding the k-frame to the frame rails would certainly help! I know subframe connectors are the typical "best bang for the buck" modification and will improve the ride/handling of a stock car but, really, if you aren't majorly upgrading the suspension, brakes, and wheel/tire package for competition will you actually ever notice the difference between well-built bolt-in connectors and welded in ones? I fail to see how the method of attachment on a straight rail between two points will affect the overall rigidity. Now, the full contour connectors are a different story.
Troy
Because you do sometimes have to remove the K-member. Also I think the debate has largely been about which method was better, bolting in or welding. If you asked the same question about the K-member I suspect you would find the same results.
When do you "have to" remove it? The engine can come out the top if necessary and everything else is bolted on to it.
I just like asking because it seems like the answers you get on the internet almost always favor the hardest, most expensive, highest performing, etc. way of doing things. For the average guy who just wants to take the car out for a leisurely cruise a couple times per month I think it can be overwhelming to hear that they need to spend a pile of cash, lots of time, and/or need a bunch of special tools just to improve their ride. For many, many years guys drove with stock suspension parts (possibly with the exception of C-body tie rod ends), drum brakes, wheels with poor offset, junk headers that hung too low, and painted cars in the back yard with single stage. My first 68 only had after market wheels and side mirrors and I managed to drive it daily for 5 years. I had never heard of sub frame connectors and I doubt they would have made much difference with my 318, auto trans, Daytona radials, and 10" drums. If I had installed them, I may have felt some improvement BUT would I have noticed a difference if I had welded instead of bolted?
Troy
Hemi swap, concours resto. Those are two that spring instantly to mind.
The k member likely moves less than the rest of the front end components but yes, welding it in would definitely make it more rigid for the same reasons welding in a sub frame connector makes it more rigid.
As for my personally wanting to have the connector welded more than I would the k frame, I would be adding the sub frame connector for no other purpose whatsoever than to stiffen the chassis. My k member is already there serving a dual purpose and though I could weld it in, there are other areas in the front I would go after first. For an all out car, I would likely weld it too.
I like the bolt on ones, I think I will order a set! If my car was a resto then I would weld them in place, but at this moment it is not an option. The car can be driven absolutely fine without any modifications so the frame connectors are only there to help take the load, not to protect the frame from collapsing. I believe a dab of panel glue between the frame and connectors and some grade 8 bolts with nylocks or loctite will do just fine.
I thought all the subrame connectors did is tie rear and front torque boxes together so there wouldn't be so much chassis flex.
I don't consider installing sub frame connectors (whether bolt in or weld in) the hardest, most expensive, ect. way of stiffening the chassis. It's more or less just a band aid fix. If you want the hardest and most expensive, you'd be replacing the rockers and adding x bracing. If the rockers were sufficient enough, you wouldn't need sub frame connectors to begin with.
If you aren't welding in your sub frame connectors in, why bother putting them in? You aren't getting the full benefit of them.
Quote from: Silver R/T on January 03, 2014, 05:36:23 PM
I thought all the subrame connectors did is tie rear and front torque boxes together so there wouldn't be so much chassis flex.
Your thinkings are correct
Quote from: Ghoste on January 03, 2014, 03:21:02 PM
Because you do sometimes have to remove the K-member. Also I think the debate has largely been about which method was better, bolting in or welding. If you asked the same question about the K-member I suspect you would find the same results.
yeah , welded K frame would be best , infact Grandnational stock cars had a welded on K frame I believe ,
if they were welded on at the factory , think it might have slowed the cars assembly down a lot , ie cant have a sub assembly of motor suspension built up to drop the body over :yesnod:
Quote from: Dino on January 03, 2014, 05:13:31 PM
I like the bolt on ones, I think I will order a set! If my car was a resto then I would weld them in place, but at this moment it is not an option. The car can be driven absolutely fine without any modifications so the frame connectors are only there to help take the load, not to protect the frame from collapsing. I believe a dab of panel glue between the frame and connectors and some grade 8 bolts with nylocks or loctite will do just fine.
Me to! It's just extra beef. There is no debate about "better" it's about each owners choice. I don't drag race, dirt track or drift. Is it better to bolt them in rather than not have any, I think so. Do I need a six pack or sure grip, not really but I got them, because I like having them. How many of us really constantly flog our cars to the limits so bad that only welded in place connectors could make any real difference? Why is it every single time sub frame connectors are brought up it turns into a weld issue? The subject of this topic is "Bolt in frame connectors" NOT Weld, weld isn't mentioned, it was injected into the topic and now is overriding the entire thread.
Troy is brilliant, why not weld in the K frame? Hell gusset, bracket and over plate the entire chassis and all interconnections. :scratchchin:
Its been a useful debate though. To me, if you don't think your driving necessitates welding them in over bolting them then I don't think you need them at all.
Don't get me wrong, I respect everyone's opinion and position. The factory fix was the torque boxes that tied the subs to the rockers. Knowing my Charger inside and out with my particular plans for repairs and use bolt in makes perfect sense.
A: My car is intended for daily use. B: At some point the trunk area, rear quarters and rocker areas may get repaired/overhauled. C: By bolting in connectors they can be removed if needed for other repairs/concerns but will still help to stiffen the entire chassis.
I may be fairly unique here as my Charger isn't a restoration project it's my car, for most of the 18 years I've owned it, it's paid for it's keep. My investment in it, money spent for repair has been paid back getting me to work and around town, helping me pay my bills and raise my 3 kids.
I've hung on to it by only doing what's needed, when needed, I can still jack up any area for any repairs and the doors still open and close just fine, the chassis is solid. The 60's and 70's B Body platform is a remarkably rugged, infinitely repair/rebuild-able automobile. I like the size, road manners and simplicity of repair to the whole package, I see no need for some other car to get me around.
Its all good. :2thumbs:
My '68 Charger does not have frame connectors.
FWIW, even though my frame connectors are bolted in my '69 (with a dab of panel bond for added strength), the difference between the two is night & day. I can definitely feel the body is more rigid. How much more rigid it would be if they were welded I do not know, but there is a noticeable difference.
Quote from: bill440rt on January 04, 2014, 08:39:11 AM
My '68 Charger does not have frame connectors.
FWIW, even though my frame connectors are bolted in my '69 (with a dab of panel bond for added strength), the difference between the two is night & day. I can definitely feel the body is more rigid. How much more rigid it would be if they were welded I do not know, but there is a noticeable difference.
If you had my car and drove it all the time, would you add the bolt on connectors? I would use the adhesive as well.
Quote from: Ghoste on January 03, 2014, 04:58:39 PM
Hemi swap, concours resto. Those are two that spring instantly to mind.
The k member likely moves less than the rest of the front end components but yes, welding it in would definitely make it more rigid for the same reasons welding in a sub frame connector makes it more rigid.
As for my personally wanting to have the connector welded more than I would the k frame, I would be adding the sub frame connector for no other purpose whatsoever than to stiffen the chassis. My k member is already there serving a dual purpose and though I could weld it in, there are other areas in the front I would go after first. For an all out car, I would likely weld it too.
Uh, "concourse" would exclude welding anything at all - and subframe connectors completely. Plenty of people have installed Hemis from the top. As a matter of fact, I bet very few Mopar owners actually install the engine from the bottom. The number of them that I know personally is in the single digits - and 4 of those are professional shops.
Quote from: bill440rt on January 04, 2014, 08:39:11 AM
My '68 Charger does not have frame connectors.
FWIW, even though my frame connectors are bolted in my '69 (with a dab of panel bond for added strength), the difference between the two is night & day. I can definitely feel the body is more rigid. How much more rigid it would be if they were welded I do not know, but there is a noticeable difference.
This is kind of where I was going. Someone certainly can/will notice the addition of connectors but, driving like a normal person, would they even notice the difference if the connectors were welded?
I hear arguments over the technology in skis, snowboards, softball bats, tires, mountain bike frames/suspensions, computer parts, truck shocks, and on and on from people who use their equipment at about 40% of its capacity. None of those minute details matter unless/until you're near the limit. If someone claims that composite bats are better than wood there's hardly any argument that can be made (similar to sub frame connectors vs none). However, the difference between two competing brands of composite bats may only be felt by elite players. The average guy who gets excited when he gets a ball past the pitcher will never know. I guess this is pretty much bench racing - for all manner of activities.
Troy
Quote from: Dino on January 04, 2014, 11:33:28 AM
Quote from: bill440rt on January 04, 2014, 08:39:11 AM
My '68 Charger does not have frame connectors.
FWIW, even though my frame connectors are bolted in my '69 (with a dab of panel bond for added strength), the difference between the two is night & day. I can definitely feel the body is more rigid. How much more rigid it would be if they were welded I do not know, but there is a noticeable difference.
If you had my car and drove it all the time, would you add the bolt on connectors? I would use the adhesive as well.
Do you have a welder? Bolt them in. You will definitely notice the difference. You can always weld the bolted connectors when you get to it. You just can't go with the full weld-in type (US Car Tool etc.) in stages like that.
Troy
Quote from: Dino on January 04, 2014, 11:33:28 AM
Quote from: bill440rt on January 04, 2014, 08:39:11 AM
My '68 Charger does not have frame connectors.
FWIW, even though my frame connectors are bolted in my '69 (with a dab of panel bond for added strength), the difference between the two is night & day. I can definitely feel the body is more rigid. How much more rigid it would be if they were welded I do not know, but there is a noticeable difference.
If you had my car and drove it all the time, would you add the bolt on connectors? I would use the adhesive as well.
If you are not worried about originality then go for it. I felt it was worthwhile due to the suspension/steering upgrades.
If the underside was not already painted I would have bolted & welded them in. But, the bolts/adhesive combo seemed like a viable substitute, at least better then just bolting them in alone.
No welder here nor am I able to take on that job in my garage so it's bolt in or nothing. When resto time comes around I may weld the bolt in ones or remove them and get the floor fitted type, but we are talking 5 + years away.
Thanks gents, I will be ordering a set of these. Any holidays coming up for a discount? :lol:
Quote from: Troy on January 04, 2014, 01:08:03 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on January 03, 2014, 04:58:39 PM
Hemi swap, concours resto. Those are two that spring instantly to mind.
The k member likely moves less than the rest of the front end components but yes, welding it in would definitely make it more rigid for the same reasons welding in a sub frame connector makes it more rigid.
As for my personally wanting to have the connector welded more than I would the k frame, I would be adding the sub frame connector for no other purpose whatsoever than to stiffen the chassis. My k member is already there serving a dual purpose and though I could weld it in, there are other areas in the front I would go after first. For an all out car, I would likely weld it too.
Uh, "concourse" would exclude welding anything at all - and subframe connectors completely. Plenty of people have installed Hemis from the top. As a matter of fact, I bet very few Mopar owners actually install the engine from the bottom. The number of them that I know personally is in the single digits - and 4 of those are professional shops.
Hey, you asked when you would have to remove a k frame so I gave you a couple of examples. Never mind what side the engine was installed from, how many restoration shops leave the k frame in for painting or while its on the rotisserie? Some do, some don't. You never asked me about numbers, you asked when it would ever be removed again and on some cars the fact is that it does sometimes get removed whether it was actually necessary to or not.
But we are in total agreement on one thing, its become more or less a bench racing topic now and us splitting hairs over a definition won't change it.
The bolt in frame connectors are next on my list. No welding for me either. Bolting them in.
I have subframe connectors on my 95 Cobra, I believe they're welded on. Bought car this way already so I couldn't tell difference before and after. It does go straight line at the track, frame seems to be very sturdy.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/79-93-04-Mustang-Weld-In-Sub-Frame-Connectors-Subframe-Connector-Set-/00/s/MTc2WDQwMA==/$(KGrHqZ,!rgE-dKvgiFNBPw5keUDPw~~60_12.JPG)
It's aftermarket not part of the SVT package?
Quote from: Ghoste on January 04, 2014, 09:16:43 PM
It's aftermarket not part of the SVT package?
They looks like welded on, last time I've been under the car, definitely not OE part, there's not whole lot of factory parts on the car besides body and interior lol, it's a 530whp monster.
Cool, just wondered. :2thumbs:
Only factory options for chassis stiffening with that generation of Mustang is a strut-tower brace, I think. BTW I love SN-95 Mustangs; if I could pick up a white '98 Cobra I'd be in hog heaven...
That tower brace has been an add on since the very first Mustnags (sic), you would think their engineers would have it figured out by now. ;)
I had a 95 Cobra, and it had welded subframe connectors, I think they were aftermarket as well (wish I had kept that car!) :slap:
Quote from: Indygenerallee on January 05, 2014, 12:12:32 PM
I had a 95 Cobra, and it had welded subframe connectors, I think they were aftermarket as well (wish I had kept that car!) :slap:
SN95 chassis with welded SFC's? Must've been one tight girl...