Warning if you are using stealth heads.

[mally69]

If you bought a set of assembled stealth heads you need to STOP RIGHT NOW and look at your locks and retainers. I just happend to pull my valve covers off mine and noticed that the locks are sinking in the retainers big time. This will eventually cuase a dropped valve. You need to upgrade to better locks and retainers which has been discussed on here before. I have about 1200 miles on my heads. 

[Steve P.]

Sheesh... Mally, you are NOT having any kind of luck with those heads.. Have you pulled any retainers yet??

[firefighter3931]

This one is worth a sticky ! 

Thanks for the "heads up" Mally....no pun intended. 




Ron

[mally69]

Sheesh... Mally, you are NOT having any kind of luck with those heads.. Have you pulled any retainers yet??

Nope im so mad that I have given up for the year. Winter is coming here in about 1 1/2 months so I figured I might as well start winter storage early. I haven't done anything but put the valve cover over top of the rockers and walk away for a while cause thats going to be a big job to change all those.

This one is worth a sticky !

Thanks for the "heads up" Mally....no pun intended.




Ron

None taken     I shouild have just bought a set of indy heads for this also.

[Steve P.]

Sorry that you are having such issues with these heads.. I know that POURING feeling very well myself. Just be very happy that you caught this before any MORE real damage to the motor. Shoot some pics before you put this MAD MACHINE away.

Keep in mind that many people read these posts and they need all of our help and experience to make their best decisions. I know you know this and have always done a great job with info. and pics. We learn from OUR and OTHERS mistakes and problems.  I just think you have been beaten hard with these heads.. Very sorry for that.  Just keep fighting buddy. You've done a great job with your cars and have helped many.

[my73charger]

Thanks for the tip Mally.  I am going to pull my covers off and take a good look.  I plan to pull the heads this winter and take them down for work anyway so I guess I might just as well get started.

[six-tee-nine]

None taken     I shouild have just bought a set of indy heads for this also.

I think I'm gonna listen to that advise and do so instead of leaning towards them Stealths.

Glad you found out in time instead of finding it out the hard way and ending up with a ruined engine

[mally69]

I will post up some pics as soon as i can. I have had entirtely to much bad luck with these heads.  I know I seen it in here before some place but, what 10 degree locks and retainers will be a perfect combo using the springs that came on the stealth heads.

[dstryr]

I think these are the options:


Comp Cams 7 degree locks 601-16 and retainers 782-16
Comp Cams 10 degree locks 613-16 and retainers 741-16


Here is a link to their on-line catalog pages:

Locks:http://compcams.com/technical/Catalogs/106-07/310-311.pdf

Retainers:http://compcams.com/technical/Catalogs/106-07/309.pdf

[RD]

i think it was here that you may have saw this:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,47713.0.html

I guess me and my friends warning wasnt good enough for a sticky?

[my73charger]

I think these are the options:


Comp Cams 7 degree locks 601-16 and retainers 782-16
Comp Cams 10 degree locks 613-16 and retainers 741-16


Here is a link to their on-line catalog pages:

Locks:http://compcams.com/technical/Catalogs/106-07/310-311.pdf

Retainers:http://compcams.com/technical/Catalogs/106-07/309.pdf

What will a full set of 10 degree locks and retainers cost me?

[metallicareload99]

What will a full set of 10 degree locks and retainers cost me?

Less than $100 shipped if I recall

I got:

Locks / Keepers
CCA-611-16
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D611%2D16&FROM=MG

Retainers
CCA-741-16
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D741%2D16&FROM=MG


All of it 10 degree.  If possible, I think it has been suggested to get locks and/or retainers that are set up so that a little bit more of the valve stem is showing compared to as shipped from 440 Source.  Not sure if that Comp Cams set up will do that, and it might not be too critical.  I think the important thing is to have good hardware keeping those valves and spring heights where they are supposed to be
   

[my73charger]

Thanks!

[firefighter3931]

I guess me and my friends warning wasnt good enough for a sticky?

Sure it was Jamey, but that was the first dropped valve issue we've seen here on the board. Not wanting to be an alarmist it wasn't warrented at that time but this appears to be more than an isolated incident....hence the sticky.

Thanks for providing the link. 


Look guys, the Stealth heads are descent but have their inherent weaknesses....just like Edelbrock, Mopar Performance and yes Indy. 

Address those issues and you can run these heads with confidence. 



Ron

[my73charger]

Hi Ron,

What do you think of the comp locks and retainers above?  I am probably going to order them up next week.  THe heads are definitely coming off this winter to be ported and polished as well, but I want to get the new hardware on them asap.

Thanks Ron,

Tim

[dstryr]

I bought a set of the 440Source heads in February and had planned to add the 10* locks & retainers.  The heads are going out today to be checked have a valve job done, and port work and they will install the Comp parts for me when they reassemble them.  They will go on a .030over 440 with a 440Source 512 rotating assembly, harland-sharp roller rockers, and an XS290S cam with EDM lifters.

to everyone  for sharing all the info on these stroker builds.  You guys who have built stroker motors and posted your combos and parts lists, and you guys with the experience and advice have been a world of help for me because I am having a motor built for my Road Runner and doing this is a first for me in 22 years of owning muscle cars.   I haven't asked any questions because while I've been working on what I want to do I find most of the information I need in these stroker threads.


 
It doesn't seem like moparts is a swear word around here so here is a quote from the tech archives I read this morning while looking for some Edelbrock flow numbers. This is back from 2002:




IMO, HARDENED (like the Comps) 7 degree locks are fine for most apps, although I've used 10 degrees and see no adverse effects either way. I have seen a few three groove locks 7 degree pull through. Valve weight spring load and how the motor is slung have the biggest bearing on how the valvetrain holds up. Give me two heads, one off a stick and one off an automatic with the same valvetrain and you can tell the stick car just by the way the valves come out.
Most aftermarket complete heads use cheap stamped locks, they get tossed right along with the as delivered valve job. A good single groove hardened lock and matching retainer, whether 7 or 10 degrees is money well spent.

[firefighter3931]

Hi Ron,

What do you think of the comp locks and retainers above?  I am probably going to order them up next week.  THe heads are definitely coming off this winter to be ported and polished as well, but I want to get the new hardware on them asap.

Thanks Ron,

Tim

Tim, those locks and retainers are fine.....no problem with the stock stealth valvesprings/valves. 



Ron

[firefighter3931]

 
It doesn't seem like moparts is a swear word around here so here is a quote from the tech archives I read this morning while looking for some Edelbrock flow numbers. This is back from 2002:




IMO, HARDENED (like the Comps) 7 degree locks are fine for most apps, although I've used 10 degrees and see no adverse effects either way. I have seen a few three groove locks 7 degree pull through. Valve weight spring load and how the motor is slung have the biggest bearing on how the valvetrain holds up. Give me two heads, one off a stick and one off an automatic with the same valvetrain and you can tell the stick car just by the way the valves come out.
Most aftermarket complete heads use cheap stamped locks, they get tossed right along with the as delivered valve job. A good single groove hardened lock and matching retainer, whether 7 or 10 degrees is money well spent.

We have nothing against Moparts here....many of my friends are members on both boards.    Sure there are some "testy" characters over there but by and large the tech advice is pretty sound in the "race" section. 


The comment regarding the cheap stamped locks is sometimes true...but not allways. For instance ; my early production E-Heads came with good hardware....machined (not stamped) locks and CM retainers which are fine for my .585 lift solid cam. Fwiw those are 7* locks and retainers as well....and i have no worries. As long as the retainer and lock fit properly together and the material is strong and well machined there should never be any issues. A 10* lock/retainer can fail as easily as a 7* setup if things aren't "right". 


Good luck with your build....do your homework and it will turn out right. It allready sounds like your pre-planning is moving this build in the right direction. 



Ron

[frederick]

All of it 10 degree.  If possible, I think it has been suggested to get locks and/or retainers that are set up so that a little bit more of the valve stem is showing compared to as shipped from 440 Source.  Not sure if that Comp Cams set up will do that, and it might not be too critical.  I think the important thing is to have good hardware keeping those valves and spring heights where they are supposed to be

I also fitted the comp cams 10 degrees retainers and locks.
But I used these and noticed the compressed height increased by about 0.040", so I am going to get shims under the springs to compensate.
CCA-613-16 (locks)
CCA-748-16 (retainers)
I'm going to measure the actual compressed spring force with the shims, will let you know the results when I have them.

Frederick

[Chatt69chgr]

That would put the retainer .040 inch closer to the underside of the rocker.  What rocker are you using and what is the actual distance in thousandths of an inch to the underside of the rocker from the outer edge of the new retainer? 

[frederick]

That would put the retainer .040 inch closer to the underside of the rocker.  What rocker are you using and what is the actual distance in thousandths of an inch to the underside of the rocker from the outer edge of the new retainer? 

I have checked quickly by eye with the original stamped rockers and some were very close <0.020" while some of them had at least 0.080" clearance.
I haven't got access to the heads at the moment because they are at the machinist for milling, but if possible I will check more accurately this weekend.

[dstryr]

Good luck with your build....do your homework and it will turn out right. It allready sounds like your pre-planning is moving this build in the right direction. 



Ron

Thanks, Ron

That  moparts remark was tongue-in-cheek because I don't know many guys on this site. 

The ongoing stroker threads here have been consistent in staying on topic and providing lots of build details which made it easier for me to choose parts and plan this out.  

I'll have my heads back in a week or so and will post flow #s with the guy's bench info from before and after.  He will also install the comp 10* retainers and locks.  If I can still swing it this year I'll have the engine dyno'd at the same shop that is doing the heads before it goes in the car and give the results and combination details as well.  Shoot, even if it sucks I'll tell ya' that, too!

Frank

[firefighter3931]

Thanks, Frank.....looking forward to seeing some flow numbers from your shop. 

The XS290S is an excellent cam....you'll luv it in that combo ! 

Hopefully you can have it dynoed and we can archive the results for future reference. 

Thanks, Ron

The ongoing stroker threads here have been consistent in staying on topic and providing lots of build details which made it easier for me to choose parts and plan this out.  

Glad to hear our proven combo's forum has been of some help. That was my hope in having this sub forum established....No BS results without the retoric about parts selection. 


Keep us up to speed on your progress, please.



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Should I do this rebuild on my stealths even if I don't see anything suspicius (when arriving)? Should I contact 440source for correct parts or don't they acknowledge the problem?

[Rubberduck]

I also fitted the comp cams 10 degrees retainers and locks.
But I used these and noticed the compressed height increased by about 0.040", so I am going to get shims under the springs to compensate.
CCA-613-16 (locks)
CCA-748-16 (retainers)
I'm going to measure the actual compressed spring force with the shims, will let you know the results when I have them.

Frederick

So, what are the right retainers for the stealth heads?

Frederick says he uses CCA-748-16 retainers.
Others use                 CCA-741-16 retainers.

The only difference is Inside Diameter of Inner Spring and Outside Diameter of Middle Spring

here is a link to compare both: http://store.summitracing.com/compare.asp?Ntt=cca-741-16&N=700+0&Ntk=KeywordSearch


Mario