Anyone, body tech or painters spraying Standox paint? Owner switched paints on me today w/no warning or any clue at all to Standox. We had a PPG and RM mix bank until noon today.
never shot the brand myself, any info. welcomed.
Standox is awesome stuff you will like it.
Well, I hope so. I tried to get older paint codes to come up and nada. I understand it costs less than what we had, but gees. I did spray it like, maybe 15 years ago, I'd have to do some research, old notes. I'll spray anything and make it work/look good.
I was going to google more info. But I'm just needing a break I think this weekend from automotive crap, ha.
Quote from: dads_69 on October 18, 2008, 01:36:02 PM
Well, I hope so. I tried to get older paint codes to come up and nada. I understand it costs less than what we had, but gees. I did spray it like, maybe 15 years ago, I'd have to do some research, old notes. I'll spray anything and make it work/look good.
I was going to google more info. But I'm just needing a break I think this weekend from automotive crap, ha.
It deffinately isnt cheaper around here....PPG ad Dupont are the cheaper mainstream lines here with Standox and Sikkens being the top tier more expensive lines.
Wow, our PPG and RM account is close to 100 grand a year. Boss did the math and had many talks w/new reps about Standox, they said we'll save over 20 grand a year now.
He said to me yesterday, so now we'll see one year from now.
He told me he left me in the dark about paint change over so I wouldn't be pissed off, ha. I'm not, just left in the dark about mix ratios and so forth, no hardware yet for new computer.
Thanks........
Standox and Sikkens cost more initially , but the coverage and the color match are far better which is where the savings come into play.
I heard that shops are now converting to a water based paint? :scratchchin:
Quote from: BMOTOXSTAR on October 18, 2008, 09:50:53 PM
I heard that shops are now converting to a water based paint? :scratchchin:
That IS coming and has in some parts of the US and Canada , but its not really wide spread as of yet.
Quote from: 1hot68 on October 18, 2008, 06:39:59 PM
Standox and Sikkens cost more initially , but the coverage and the color match are far better which is where the savings come into play.
BS! I use Sikkens water based at work,3 other painters and myself HATE it. It is garbage,along with the fact it is not a full water based paint. We are merely the guinea pigs in this conversion. This stuff will not be mandated til atleast 2012. The Sikkens Reps claim we will be using half the material,when in fact,the coverage AND color matches plain out suck! Every job requires almost 4x as much material to do the jobs on average.We are contantly being MF'd by our CEO that material costs are 3x what they should be since we started using this stuff. Well,this is why the costs are up because of those reasons,and we were on budget before we began using it a year ago. The Reps keep telling him it is painter error.....B_LLSH_T!!! It all has to do with the fat ass check they gave our CEO to use there junk in all our shops cross country(DCR Systems,what a joke),they are just like car salesman,will tell you anything to sell it.
More bad thins about it,(Sikkens),it is positively charged and attracts dirt like you would not believe,it CANNOT be tacked-off to rid of dirt between coats,(stays too soft),water sanding dirt out cant happen because the paint will run off the car,dry sanding,well just makes more dirt,the paint in the cup looks multicolored til it dries,then you can see how close the color is/is not,spray outs take too long to make cuz of this,and the clear is so hard,it is like rubbing concrete.
So if anyone has anything to say to prove I am wrong here,have at it! We have sprayed this stuff longer than anyone on the planet,..literally! You want good water based paint that is really water based,go to PPG and find out about what they have.
California is already mandated with the use of it,next is East coast,the the Mid-West following suit.Sherwin Williams is also the next in line that has _hitty so-called water based paint.
:Twocents: :cheers:
Quote from: BMOTOXSTAR on October 18, 2008, 09:50:53 PM
I heard that shops are now converting to a water based paint? :scratchchin:
I believe California uses only water based by now due to high pollution.
Quote from: FJ571440B on October 19, 2008, 12:56:13 PM
Quote from: 1hot68 on October 18, 2008, 06:39:59 PM
Standox and Sikkens cost more initially , but the coverage and the color match are far better which is where the savings come into play.
BS! I use Sikkens water based at work,3 other painters and myself HATE it. It is garbage,along with the fact it is not a full water based paint. We are merely the guinea pigs in this conversion. This stuff will not be mandated til atleast 2012. The Sikkens Reps claim we will be using half the material,when in fact,the coverage AND color matches plain out suck! Every job requires almost 4x as much material to do the jobs on average.We are contantly being MF'd by our CEO that material costs are 3x what they should be since we started using this stuff. Well,this is why the costs are up because of those reasons,and we were on budget before we began using it a year ago. The Reps keep telling him it is painter error.....B_LLSH_T!!! It all has to do with the fat ass check they gave our CEO to use there junk in all our shops cross country(DCR Systems,what a joke),they are just like car salesman,will tell you anything to sell it.
More bad thins about it,(Sikkens),it is positively charged and attracts dirt like you would not believe,it CANNOT be tacked-off to rid of dirt between coats,(stays too soft),water sanding dirt out cant happen because the paint will run off the car,dry sanding,well just makes more dirt,the paint in the cup looks multicolored til it dries,then you can see how close the color is/is not,spray outs take too long to make cuz of this,and the clear is so hard,it is like rubbing concrete.
So if anyone has anything to say to prove I am wrong here,have at it! We have sprayed this stuff longer than anyone on the planet,..literally! You want good water based paint that is really water based,go to PPG and find out about what they have.
California is already mandated with the use of it,next is East coast,the the Mid-West following suit.Sherwin Williams is also the next in line that has _hitty so-called water based paint.
:Twocents: :cheers:
Easy there, Thunder!!! ........I was refering to Sikkens solvent base paints, I have zero experiance using the new water base stuff.
I've sprayed Sikkens before and hated it. If Standox is anything compared to what we have now at the shop, f' me!
What piss' me off is that the paint rep that installed new mix bank and etc... Didn't go over anything w/me after wards. The three guys said good luck and a rep will be in touch shortly.
Great, so here I am on Friday w/3 cars that need to go by 6, 1:30 now and not able to paint. 5:35 p.m. comes around, boss says rep will be at shop at 6 for 2 hr. class.
He knew I couldn't stay and new paint rep didn't want to interupt my work day. WTF! I couldn't spray anything since computer wasn't loaded up and I was waiting on his dumbass.
I told my boss this morning, they best have they're shit together Monday morning for me.
I painted 2 cars early Friday morning w/RM the installers for Standox said cars look okay but Standox is better. I said really, do you guys want to paint my next 3 cars today!? Two of the said *oh we don't paint, we only install equipment*. I wanted to throw those idiots out of the shop after that comment. The 3rd knucklehead just laughed as if he said a bunch of blah blah I know than anyone as I walked away.
I have a passion for automotive, body and paint, seeing a car/truck done stock or custom is very rewarding/feeling. But if I have to baby a new product so it'll work for me and lose hrs due to shit paint product. You know what is gonna hit the fan soon w/Standox reps.
FJ571440B, thanks for the your reply.
Quote from: dads_69 on October 19, 2008, 01:19:39 PM
I've sprayed Sikkens before and hated it. If Standox is anything compared to what we have now at the shop, f' me!
What piss' me off is that the paint rep that installed new mix bank and etc... Didn't go over anything w/me after wards. The three guys said good luck and a rep will be in touch shortly.
Great, so here I am on Friday w/3 cars that need to go by 6, 1:30 now and not able to paint. 5:35 p.m. comes around, boss says rep will be at shop at 6 for 2 hr. class.
He knew I couldn't stay and new paint rep didn't want to interupt my work day. WTF! I couldn't spray anything since computer wasn't loaded up and I was waiting on his dumbass.
I told my boss this morning, they best have they're shit together Monday morning for me.
I painted 2 cars early Friday morning w/RM the installers for Standox said cars look okay but Standox is better. I said really, do you guys want to paint my next 3 cars today!? Two of the said *oh we don't paint, we only install equipment*. I wanted to throw those idiots out of the shop after that comment. The 3rd knucklehead just laughed as if he said a bunch of blah blah I know than anyone as I walked away.
I have a passion for automotive, body and paint, seeing a car/truck done stock or custom is very rewarding/feeling. But if I have to baby a new product so it'll work for me and lose hrs due to shit paint product. You know what is gonna hit the fan soon w/Standox reps.
FJ571440B, thanks for the your reply.
I feel youre pain about being thrown into a new paint line without warning!.....But I cant see how you could hate spraying Sikkens(atleast solvent)? What didnt you like about it? was it Autobase plus? cryl ? The Clear? what?
Ive sprayed all brands over the years and I dont think any paint line can hold a candle to sikkens.IMO
I believe it was cryl. It was back in 1997 when I was shooting it. Shop then switched to Dupont at least soon after many of us complained. Not enough color choices for base coats, had to get our paint supply as well from Portland vs. local. Yeah, when or if we were low on toner's, tough luck getting a new can within reasonable amount of time.
On several base coat colors, it was recommend to use hardener in base to help dry it before clear coat was applied.
That IMO was just stupid. I've been a PPG guy for many years, Dupont as well. I am an optimist at least, tomorrow is a new day and hopefully the rep will get me set up so I can make some big $$ like he said, salesmen, they're all such bullshitters IMO.
Mark
Sorry man,sprayed the Sikkens solvent for 2 years before the water came,the color matches were just as bad,they are computer generated,not sprayed,hence bad matches. Honestly,next to PPG and Du Pont,the next best line of paint I sprayed was ICI AutoColor(solvent),now under NEXA I believe,as far as color matching and longevity goes. None are perfect,but these are the ones I and the guys doing it for 20 plus years that have trained me feel. The color matches were good,and they were user friendly and held up over time and the elements. Paint Reps. are just that,they are basically car salesmen of paint,and as long as your boss signs that contract,they will tell him whatever he wants to hear usually at your expense. And he will believe it because of that fat ass check they give him to fill his shop with and advertise their sh_tty paint. Its all a Monopoly game to them.They all tell you they are 2nd to none, and that if you follow the instructions and dont try and "push" the product it will be to your benefit and save money,...Bullsh_it! Being flat-rate,if you cant push the product to it's limits,you will bring home a 20 hour paycheck for 40 hours + of your time. :Twocents: :cheers:
Quote from: FJ571440B on October 19, 2008, 06:09:35 PM
Sorry man,sprayed the Sikkens solvent for 2 years before the water came,the color matches were just as bad,they are computer generated,not sprayed,hence bad matches. Honestly,next to PPG and Du Pont,the next best line of paint I sprayed was ICI AutoColor(solvent),now under NEXA I believe,as far as color matching and longevity goes. None are perfect,but these are the ones I and the guys doing it for 20 plus years that have trained me feel. The color matches were good,and they were user friendly and held up over time and the elements. Paint Reps. are just that,they are basically car salesmen of paint,and as long as your boss signs that contract,they will tell him whatever he wants to hear usually at your expense. And he will believe it because of that fat ass check they give him to fill his shop with and advertise their sh_tty paint. Its all a Monopoly game to them.They all tell you they are 2nd to none, and that if you follow the instructions and dont try and "push" the product it will be to your benefit and save money,...Bullsh_it! Being flat-rate,if you cant push the product to it's limits,you will bring home a 20 hour paycheck for 40 hours + of your time. :Twocents: :cheers:
WOW!! The fact that you are complaining about the Autobase Plus color match makes me wonder if you are really in a position to give out advice on paint products..............Ive sprayed it all and Sikkens has been by far the best in every way ecspecially the color match. Soory , but Im speaking from real life experiance starting along time ago when I started doing this with PPG duracryl Lacquer..........25 years later Ive found what I think is the best ! Sikkens!
Hey,I can help pirate the post and join the pissing contest....
Laquer days are far over,those dont count! Being trained by the best production painters in the business,custom guys aside,these guys beat me even when I was down,they have hammered several major lines onto me,swim or drown,do better than the best you can as fast as you can,running 3 spray booths at once with up to 10 guns of color,pearls and tri-stages simultaneously,Sagolas',Satas',GTI's,etc. you name it in a shop that did 7.5 million in it's best year through my short 12 years in it with 5 prep guys.My 2nd ASE expires in 2010,I have recently got out of it because of the insurance companies cutting 14 hour jobs to 6 hour jobs and this concier' BS programs like Progressive and others have that will soon be coming to an end because the customers are getting smart and dont want 10 people driving thier $40,000 Lexus before it gets repaired.Only thing good about Sikkens solvent is that the clear lays down nice when you cocktail it and crank the pressure up with the gun a little farther away than normal.Just let it set up for a few before the heat hits it or you'll be scraping it up off the floor. You must do alot of blending,if not,ALOT of tinting.That dont mean good color matches,but good color matching. Oh yeah,I have an I-CAR cert. in color matching also.Now I'm wondering if YOU should be giving any advice the way you're lovin this Sikkens BS.
This whore has been around the block a few times,but it is a constant learning process regardless of what anyone knows! :cheers:
Wow, I've been spraying for over 23 years myself. I'll chime in tomorrow after work on how my new paint line goes, until then, I hope this thread doesn't get locked. :2thumbs:
Mark
Im not trying to start a pissing match, I just think its interesting that youre experiance with Sikkens is SO much differant than mine. :scratchchin:
If your boss has not consulted with you on switching lines at all before doing it,you're either on your way out before you know it,or you need to look for a new job and work for someone who actually gives a damn! How do you not communicate with your workers like that,they are the ones who keep things rolling. :Twocents: :cheers:
Quote from: 1hot68 on October 19, 2008, 08:47:23 PM
Im not trying to start a pissing match, I just think its interesting that youre experiance with Sikkens is SO much differant than mine. :scratchchin:
I'm not affended by your replys, no worries.
Also, I'm not on my way out either, I won't get into why but that ain't gonna happen unless I sell out.
We/boss and I had spoke of going w/PPG only just two weeks ago, now this sudden change. Day painter has been fired already, I work evenings mostly and now the day painter we have, well IMO he's a good preper and thats about it. Lately though I've been working days and some evenings, due to so much work.
I had bad luck w/Sikkens back in 1997, not recent, at that time I was shooting PPG and then boom, big switch. I didn't have any training and shop back then only had one booth w/two painters, middle of winter, temp outside was -20, -30 or more at times, so everything just sucked then. Shop would lose heat and so on.
I'm also 2500 miles away from Portland, so waiting on materials being shipped to me flat out sucked ass, meaning no pay for jobs unless they were done.
Dads 69, Good Luck, You can do it :2thumbs: LEON.
My feed back as of today's paint experience: It sucks.
More info. tomorrow as I learn/spray more.
I have used Glasurit, Standox, PPG, Steel, solvent base.
Glasurit, PPG, Standox, RM, Water base.
I have also tried Sikkens, Max Meyer, Spies hecker.
I must say that no big paint company makes bad paint, but you have to learn to use it..
All the different brand have they own way of use.
Then it comes down to what you like.
Some have very good color match tools, other have very good clear, etc etc.
One of the most important thing is service and good tech people.
One of the worst thing is a boss that want to save money and lets you in the dark, that could cost..
Some good points,especially on the tech support.Most of the guys companies give you are Reps. and that's about it. They are usually oblivious to what happens real world and hands on. I feel the only things that makes good companies have so called "bad paint" are the extra steps to achieve the same results from one system to another,rsulting in loss of time,variant choices,(bad matches,lot of tinting),and longevity of the product.
My main problem,as with Sikkens "water based",is we were convinced that we would be saving time and money on material,and it has been the exact opposite,material cost is 3x what is was with solvent. The coverage is terrible with most colors. Several of us are experiencing the same things,so I feel painter error is not a factor .
You for sure had some good points though.
dad's 69,try and work with it and let us know. But I agree with you after using it for nearly a year. :cheers:
Quote from: NorwayCharger on October 21, 2008, 01:35:13 AM
I have used Glasurit, Standox, PPG, Steel, solvent base.
Glasurit, PPG, Standox, RM, Water base.
I have also tried Sikkens, Max Meyer, Spies hecker.
I must say that no big paint company makes bad paint, but you have to learn to use it..
All the different brand have they own way of use.
Then it comes down to what you like.
Some have very good color match tools, other have very good clear, etc etc.
One of the most important thing is service and good tech people.
One of the worst thing is a boss that want to save money and lets you in the dark, that could cost..
Most Reps I've talked to have been totally useless with little actual hands on experiance & the experiance some do have is with new car methods/technique that have little to do with older car restoration. They have been working on Water Base paint for 20 years now & I dont think they will ever have it perfected. LEON.
Well, the paint rep sent to our shop has some good info. an knowledge, but not as much as I do of PPG and other brands. He appears either tired of questions or just flat out board. There is an average of 4 variances, which IMO, not enough. No paint codes for older cars past 1980 hardly come up.
I did tell the paint rep, paint is paint, lets get it on and tell me what info. I need to be happy.
He from that point realized how I feel about the product, oh well, as long as I make $$ I'll work w/it and use what I know and trust on other car/trucks when customers chose a different brand on his or her vehicle vs. Standox.
My opinion on Standox is still the same, it sucks ass.
LOL, I thought you might say that. Just remember the basics,like you said paint is paint,it has to be reduced,sprayed and allowed to dry.Some faster/slower than others.Matching is going to be the hard part,if it is that bad,try to blend as much as possible,even if your not paid to do the panel,it will save you money in the long run.
Do you know exactly WHY your boss decided to go wih this paint? If he thinks it is cheaper,he's wrong,it is going to screw all of you in the long run coming in short(soon).He is going to get pissed losing when he loses money,and come back on you,the painter for it,saying you're not doing things properly. Re-do's,potential for other jobs,using more material,time...it dont cost 2 or 3x as much,but 5-7x as much by the time you figure all that in realistically.
Good luck Man!
:cheers:
Oh yeah,the Rep. probably knows the paint sucks ass as well,it is merely just a paycheck for him. :yesnod:
My boss knows how I feel about the paint rep and his lack of info. So maybe he can read between the lines, by now and hopefully he'll come to he senses and get rid of the crap.
Boss painted a GM truck, code WA382E yes a bitch of a color for many, I don't care who you are or which brand of paint you use, that color sucks to match. I blend any time I feel need be regardless if I get paid to do it or not.
It all comes out in the end as a payoff for me.
Boss painted the WA382e pewter, ha, he screwed the pooch on it too. To green, couldn't get a good match to come up on computer or blend. He ended up painting more then needed and finally said it's done, even though it wasn't IMO. I said, hey, your the boss, you make the calls.
Even the paint rep said I have a good eye for color matching, it did look to green to him as well, I said yeah, and I'm not even a paint rep, how about that!?
We have 5 old muscle cars at the shop needing paint, soon, and we won't be using Standox either on the due to can't get paint code from Standox, gees, can you lame?
In the mean time, I'll do my normal best and hopefully boss will see the paint line sucks (ass).
Thanks for listening and comments. :D
I did that GM 382E Pewter on my buddy's Truck recently after he hit a Deer. Painted in my Driveway. Luckily I used PPG & the color matched pretty good. I hate light metallics like this gold pewter but came out ok. Many cheaper Paints like PPG's budget line of Omni (now shop line) will tell you ahead of time not good for color matches & they have a big sign at the Painters Supply store saying so. They'll suggest good for spraying a whole car over spotting. Good if you work at a Maaco maybe. The reason they tell me is the amounts of Tints available are much less making colors less accurate. Open 2 tints of the same # from 2 different paint companies & tell me what you see, lot of times 2 different colors. LEON.
Heard that,try some of the new Lexus colors or VW colors,LOTS of modeling! Gotta hold the gun(SATA 2000 1.2 tip)back a bit and lay a nice wet even coat,spray some fade-out on it and let it flow.Sometimes back 2 back coats horizontal and vertical over the whole panel to make it look solid,(if you can understand that,sure you can)and lose the blotchy-ness. Stuff sucks sometimes,but end results make you feel like king shit. :2thumbs:
Well, after buying more new paint guns, Iwata base and clear guns. And learning more about how to lay materail down vs. what I've been used too, it's all coming along better for me. I'm still a PPG/Dupont guy, Standox is not going to replace those products like new paint rep said they would, idiot.
So now my two cents is, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being great, it's a 6 and that's it period.Thanks for all the info. and comments.
Mark
Funny part about it is, If you re boss would have allowed you to be a part of the decision you would likely be alot happier with the product!
But he did it behind you re back , creating animosity ,and anger toward the stuff from the very beginning! He must not be too great at employee relations.