Ok, so for the last 8 years that i have had my Superbird I keep hearing this all the time, every car show, every car guy,etc. I hear so often about the Plymouth dealers could not sell the Superbirds when new so they transfered them back to regular road runners...If that's so, where is one? where is the proof ? vintage pictures ? owners / buyers that bought one like that when new?? is there anyone that actually worked at a dealership back then that can remember and back this up? Your talking from the firewall forward all new metal parts,grill,bumpers etc. remove the wing and fill the holes, and did they just leave the back window alone?? did they just leave the aero roof pillars? Cost wise i can't see it. The only thing i have even seen close is the white one on cars in barns with 440+6 4spd. with window plug still in and roof pillars on, besides that it looks production RR. it could be a factory job, :shruggy: but it also could have been done anytime during it's life. This may have already been discused on here...if so i just have not ran across it yet. :popcrn:
I believe there may have been one or two but yeah, I'm with you. It gets tossed around now like it was so commonplace that the myth even extends back to Daytona's now. At one time you heard they sold quite well but lately I hear people claiming how they as well languished on the lots for years and got converted back to regular Chargers.
Lets see the proof.
I can see where "some" may have sat for over a year on the lot, :eek2: heck there are dealers today that have "bastard units" that sit on the lot for over a year, i used to sell cars in the mid 90's for a few years and i have seen it first hand. As a matter of fact we had a brand new black 1998 Ford F-150 short bed reg.cab NASCAR edition truck, it had a 4.6 v8 with crank windows no power options and did have carpet, it had ugly black Lincoln Navigator rims with yellow letter tires and ugly graphics, we had the body shop peel off all of the bold NASCAR decals, had the body shop and the service dept. paint the rims silver and turned in the yellow letter tires, it finally sold as just a basic work truck, it's still around town very weathered and beat.
This is an urban legend that grows every time the story is told and retold. With only 500 cars available, Daytonas sold very quickly. Most Superbirds were sold by early 1971. There are a few cars that hung around for whatever reason. But we are not talking about many unsold cars in the scope of almost 2000 built. It would be cheaper to deeply discount a Superbird and blow it out, compared to the parts and labor expense of converting back to a standard Road Runner. Think about it.
Quote from: Aero426 on June 19, 2012, 12:14:12 PM
This is an urban legend that grows every time the story is told and retold. With only 500 cars available, Daytonas sold very quickly. Most Superbirds were sold by early 1971. There are a few cars that hung around for whatever reason. But we are not talking about many unsold cars in the scope of almost 2000 built. It would be cheaper to deeply discount a Superbird and blow it out, compared to the parts and labor expense of converting back to a standard Road Runner. Think about it.
Good post. It could not have been cost effective to 'convert' SBs to RR sheet metal. Why put more money into a car you can't sell already? Cut the price and move it out.
They might have removed wing here or there .But transform whole car back to RR doesnt add up :Twocents: .
Back in the day when these cars got wrecked by owners I seen many ending up with regular front clips :Twocents:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/superbird80-s.jpg)
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,57521.0.html
Aero426, and 69CoronetRT, very well put and very true, NascarXX29, thanks for the pic! :2thumbs:
I will also add that in regard to a dealer converting cars back, versus cutting the price - most dealers were paying finance charges (floorplanning) on their inventory. The longer the car sat, the more it cost the dealer to let it sit. It is true that a few dealers got "stuck" with a car. At least one refused to sell the car, so he could complain to the zone rep about the "loser" he had been stuck with. That one was finally sold for full sticker in 1973 :nana:.
Ron Poage in Ohio bought an unsold Hemi, 4-speed Superbird in 1972 from a dealer in a rural area. But it was intact. No nose or wing removed.
Tom Pridmore in Florida bought a new Superbird in '70 without a wing. The dealer claimed it had been lot damaged. I will say that it would be a lot easier to remove the wing to make a car more marketable.
Unsold wingcar posting :Twocents:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,12161.0.html
This one sat on the lot and got more then its wing damaged
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,65622.0.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,65561.0.html
I think that more Superbirds and Daytonas involved in accidents had regular Road Runner and Charger front ends installed. Some savvy sellers probably came up with the being sold new that way to mask crash damage???
MJ
Our petty blue car was delivered on 12/26/69 and sold 2/26/70--when people tell me about how they all sat around, they get really big eyed when I point that out...
Within the past week I heard from a gentleman who knows one of the Regional Sales Managers from the St. Louis area back in 1969. The Sales Rep is still alive and kicking, and SPECIFICALLY remembers a Daytona which was sold without its nose and wing (i.e. it had a Charger front clip and no wing). It's not my story to tell, but I'll see if I can prod him into telling the story himself, and maybe post the name & how to contact the Sales Rep to confirm the facts.
Up until then, I'd always heard the rumors of Superbirds being converted to 'Runners but had thought Daytonas were never treated in the same fashion.
:Twocents:
I've always heard that there was a market for a few wing cars but not 2500 of them. So the first 500 Daytonas moved pretty easily but some of the birds eventually took a lot longer to sell.
Another thing - converting a Daytona to a regular Charger requires a lot less parts/labor than undoing a Superbird. Removing the Daytona nosecone leaves you with most of the 1970 Charger's front end remaining, which was the current model-year for sale at the time.
But removing the nose off a Superbird still leaves you with a customized hood and the fenders of a Dodge. The Superbird would need to have an entire front clip swapped in order to give it any chance of passing for a regular 1970 Plymouth. And the stock front clip was all-new that year too.
Either way, IMHO the year-swapping would have been a lot more feasible if the dealership was dealing with a wing car that already had front end damage from a wreck or something.
Now let's get really weird, does anyone remember Chargers or Roadrunners with non standard wings added? I could swear I remember a couple at Tom Kneer back in the day, but I was also majoring in pharmaceuticals at the time so who knows. I remember them being orange with black wings. They were parked at the corner of the lot at Glenway and Childs Ave. I think!!!
A gentleman named Charlie Marshall who lived just outside of Lewes De. had purchased a brand new blue 1969 Plymouth road Runner with a 383, he had Petty enterprise install a wing on his car shortly after he bought it, the car was always garage kept and had low mileage, he would not wash it, he would just wipe it off he had wax caked in all the cracks of the door edges and on the blue steel rims etc. it was a survivor car, the car had switches to kill the brake lights etc.I could have got the car in 1986 for $6,000, the car later sold in 1990 for $10,000 . His wife had sold the car a few years later after he passed away. I would love to know the cars status today.
Hey Guys. I am new here and this thread is the type of information that will get you in trouble on other websites. I know because the information I obtained was not welcome on another site. I think the car is being judged at a show this Summer and someone wants to keep the story hidden. I am waiting for further information from Ralph Wiedner on a Daytona that was sold in Missouri from a dealership called St. Ann Dodge in Saint Ann, Mo. Ralph has been a long time friend and was the Zone Manager for Chrysler back in 1969. He is absolutely positive that one of their Daytona's was sold without the front nose or the rear wing. No one would buy the car so they took them off. He also said that the left over parts were thrown away in their body shop dumpster. I asked if he was serious and he said YES. The car is also registered as a XS29L9B390018. I know this because I talked with a guy named Jim Hertz who is in charge of all the DMV records across the Country. Anyone can call and check. There is no record of an XX car listed with the DMV that has those last 6 sequence numbers. He is sending me the microfiche printouts on the car. Ralph still keeps contact with the original salesman who sold the car and is getting all of the records. When he gets the info I will list it here to give some credibility to all the old wives tales that have been going around.
i look forward to the story and the debate, but hope that you don't read too much into an XS registration implying that a daytona was converted back into a regular charger r/t. two daytonas were owned new in this small indiana town, and both cars contained the XS error in their paperwork.
This is 390018 before restoration. Does not look like a car that was stripped of its parts. But even if it was, it is still a real Daytona.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=49421.0;attach=88200;image)
DMVs throughout the country are all connected now?
Just my 2 cents about converted cars. I got my car in 1982 from and estate sale. The gentleman that owned it before me had 3 Birds. When I was looking at my car (the only one left - he had sold the other 2 before he died). After I was told I was getting the car the brother handling the estate said come get the car on Monday morning and bring a pick up truck. Just before the money transaction took place he took me upstairs to the attic at the lumber store and there was a complete front clip and wing from a white Superbird. There was not a scratch or dent on any of the pieces. My first thought was stolen parts, but he explained about his brothers other 2 cars and told me that for 2 years a dealer in the Seattle area kept calling him and telling him that they had these parts. Finally they made him a deal he could not say NO to and he went down to the dealership, paid $100.00 cash and 2 six packs of beer for the parts (around 1973 or 1974). He was told they came off of a car that was transformed to a Roadrunner and they were tired of counting them in their inventory. These are the parts that are now on my car. Here are some pictures of the car from 1985 at a car show. So I do think that at least one dealership did it.
Quote from: held1823 on June 24, 2012, 03:25:26 PM
welcome to the site. i look forward to the story and the debate, but hope that you don't read too much into an XS registration implying that a daytona was converted back into a regular charger r/t.
Simply removing the nose and tail does not change the fact that the VIN would still read XX (assuming it came that way and not mis VINned as an XS in the first place). No smart person would change the VIN at the DMV.
What would be the motivation for a dealer to change paperwork for an XX car to an XS? The dealer wouldn't care what the VIN was on the car as long as he sold the car. Messing with the VIN would not be worth the trouble it would cause.
That first pic is that a red Daytona with a vinyle roof.?
Quote from: Aero426 on June 24, 2012, 03:28:31 PM
This is 390018 before restoration. Does not look like a car that was stripped of its parts. But even if it was, it is still a real Daytona.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=49421.0;attach=88200;image)
That's Tony D.'s car, right? I know I've seen that picture before, but it's in much better shape now last I heard. It's my understanding he's entered it at the 'Nats this year in the OEM Certification, along with JohnTPR's Y2 and my R4 Daytona (plus Rob B.'s '68 Coronet R/T) - but the impetus behind why he would want to keep the history of his car hidden is lost on me... is there more to that? :shruggy:
BTW, thanks for joining up and chiming in with the St. Ann Dodge story, Darryl. :2thumbs: I would not have guessed a Daytona had its nose & wing discarded to make a sale before hearing that, but I've been wrong before...
As for the XX vs XS, we've had that discussion here several times. To my knowledge, all of the Manufacturer's Statement of Origin documents showed the Daytonas to be XS cars despite the fact that their VINs and Fender Tags (well, with the exception of Dan Printz's mis-stamped VIN and the Reeker car's fender tag) all read XX. Why Chrysler did that with the MSO's remains a mystery to me, but there are a boatload of examples - including my own Daytona and several other Missouri cars- which were incorrectly titled and licensed as XS when they are original/legit XX Daytonas.
:cheers:
:popcrn:
A lot of old timer "told me so" evidence. I believe it happened but still think it was uncommon and in the case of the Daytona's extremely rare if at all. I also wonder if some of the conversions that did happen actually took place when the car was used and the supercar phenomenon was winding down? n By 1972 high performance was a tough sell everywhere and if a 70 Superbird wefre to be traded in that year how long would it languish then?
No pics, so I guess it didn't happen, but I personally looked at a Yellow "RoadRunner" that had bondo'd over holes in the quarters and RR front clip on it. VIN was run by a buddy there once this was discovered. Wasn't too long after that, we were discovered and told it was NOT for sale and to remove ourselves from the property.
I had firsthand experience with a "converted" Superbird back in the mid or late 1970's. It occurred in Whittier California and involved a yellow Superbird running around without a nose or rear spoiler. I was using my Superbird as a daily driver at the time when I happened upon this yellow Road Runner one day on the way to lunch. As I followed the Bird I noticed the rear window...it was pure Superbird, so I flagged the car down and managed to get him to stop. Turns out he was a law enforcement officer...boy was I surprised! Anyway I did the old "are you interested in selling" routine and when it was clear he had no interest in selling I proceeded to explain to him that his "Road Runner" was in fact a "Superbird"...he had no idea, I felt that at the time he didn't really believe me either. He told me that he had purchased the car new and it was always a Road Runner. The details are lost to time, and to be honest, I do remember that it wasn't easy getting details from him as he may have thought I was a flake or something. Anyway, because of this Road Runner I believe the story of converted Superbirds.....but, having said that, I really don't think it as very wide spend as it's been reported as it would have been cheaper for a dealer to cut the price and take a loss rather than have their body shop do the conversion. (Unless, of course they had a new front clip already on hand..And, perhaps this Superbird had been damaged in the front so if they were going to fix it with a Road Runner clip...perhaps they felt as if they might as well remove the rear spoiler...).
The Dressler never sold 69 daytona had XS on its statement of origin
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/DCP_0296.jpg)
Tony D Daytona board intro .
Also might have been deleted of wingcars part to sell.From whats mentioned on here thats some history :Twocents:
HI
YES MY CAR IS A WHITE AUTO BUT ITS NOT THE ONE ON THAT LIST
MY VIN ENDS IN 390018
BTW, IS THERE ANYWAY THAT I CAN GET A COPY OF THAT LIST??
HERE IS THE CAR STORY
I BOUGHT IT ABOUT 4 YEARS AGO OR SO
IN KENTUCKY ON OR AROUND LATE 1971 IT GOT LIGHTLY DAMAGED WHERE DRIVERS DOOR MEETS THE 1/4 PANEL
THE DOOR WOULDNT CLOSE PROPERLY BECAUSE OF THAT
SO THE THEN OWNER GOT RID OF THE CAR
IT GOT SOLD TO 2 BROTHERS WHO KEPT IT IN A GARAGE SINCE 1972,
THEY ALSO HAD IT ALONG WITH A 69 Z-28 AND A PONTIAC SAFARI WAGON IN THE GARAGE,
THEY HAD TO SELL THE PROPERTY FOR SOME REASON, SOLD THE Z-28 AND THE DAYTONA CHEAP TO SOMEONE,
WHO THEN SOLD THE DAYTONA TO A CUSTOMER/FRIEND OF MINE FOR GOOD AMOUNT OF $$ AT THE TIME,
AND I BOUGHT IT FROM HIM BECAUSE I REALLY LIKED THE COLOR COMBO WHITE/RED WING /RED INT, ITS A 440 AUOT CONSOLE CAR,
VERY ORIGINAL AND COMPLETE, BODY IS VERY SOLID,
THE REAR INTERIOR FLOOR HAS SOME RUST DUE TO A LARGE MOUSE HOUSE LOADED WITH MOUSE TURDS + URINE
IVE BEEN COLLECTING PARTS TO RESTORE IT, AND HOPEFULLY WILL HAVE IT RESTORED SOON
THANKS
Quote from: 69CoronetRT on June 24, 2012, 11:07:33 PM
Quote from: held1823 on June 24, 2012, 03:25:26 PM
welcome to the site. i look forward to the story and the debate, but hope that you don't read too much into an XS registration implying that a daytona was converted back into a regular charger r/t.
Simply removing the nose and tail does not change the fact that the VIN would still read XX (assuming it came that way and not mis VINned as an XS in the first place). No smart person would change the VIN at the DMV.
What would be the motivation for a dealer to change paperwork for an XX car to an XS? The dealer wouldn't care what the VIN was on the car as long as he sold the car. Messing with the VIN would not be worth the trouble it would cause.
are you asking me in regards to the motivation, or just expounding on my comment? i will assume the latter.
i am somewhat familiar with a daytona referenced to in my earlier post, and used it to illustrate that the XS issue with the DMV had no bearing on the matter, just in case that was the direction that DarrlyG's investigation was headed..
Quote from: held1823 on June 25, 2012, 09:01:00 PM
are you asking me in regards to the motivation, or just expounding on my comment? i will assume the latter.
You are correct.
.
..
...
I just spoke with Ralph today and he gave alot more information on the XX(S?)29L9B390018. It did have the nose and wing removed and thrown away and was sold by either a sales guy named Lee or Art who worked at Saint Ann Dodge. A Woman also sold cars there but he did not think she was involved in the sale. He is getting the last name of the sales guy who sold it. Both guys are not alive but the person who actually threw the parts away is alive and retired from Signal Dodge. He was transferred from the Bodyshop at Saint Ann Dodge to the Signal Dodge Dealership. Ralph said Gene Gerber was a co-owner of Saint Ann Dodge and was involved in all sorts of switching cars such as the converting of this Daytona car. The original engine was also supposedly trashed the third year it was in operation and a guy in Illinois still has the damaged block. The floor pans were also completely rotted out. He is sending me pictures of the car later tonight and I will try and figure out how to post them here. Interesting stuff for sure.
Quote from: DarrlyG on June 26, 2012, 06:43:02 PM
I just spoke with Ralph today and he gave alot more information on the XX(S?)29L9B390018. It did have the nose and wing removed and thrown away and was sold by either a sales guy named Lee or Art who worked at Saint Ann Dodge. A Woman also sold cars there but he did not think she was involved in the sale. He is getting the last name of the sales guy who sold it. Both guys are not alive but the person who actually threw the parts away is alive and retired from Signal Dodge. He was transferred from the Bodyshop at Saint Ann Dodge to the Signal Dodge Dealership. Ralph said Gene Gerber was a co-owner of Saint Ann Dodge and was involved in all sorts of switching cars such as the converting of this Daytona car. The original engine was also supposedly trashed the third year it was in operation and a guy in Illinois still has the damaged block. The floor pans were also completely rotted out. He is sending me pictures of the car later tonight and I will try and figure out how to post them here. Interesting stuff for sure.
:popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: find out about that motor block will have a partial vin stamped on we can try to track the car down
Interesting story.Hope to see pictures Unrelated a similar color combo white red daytona also had a hard life.My friend Bill Stechs car
.I furnished this document to him.And it cleared up alot he didnt know about his cars earlier life accounts
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/WING_CAR_ARTICLE_13.jpg)
I also have pictures of the original numbers matching motor and trans prior to being removed from the car.
That can be confirmed by jack rawlings whom I bought the car from.
He can also confirm that the car was originally titled as an XS not an XX
I also have a history of owners of the car and have recently spoken with the owner of st ann dodge about the car and has given me with original dealer stickers, postcards, dealer id stuff. Etc
I also have an email from dave walden telling me the same bs story about the car that he spoke to the same people as he listed here under his present alias
He has tried posting the same bs on moparts but has been thrown off as he has been banned for starting the same type of trouble and getting in the same arguments that he is now doing here
Hey Guys,
Tom Barcroft just informed me of these last couple of entries so I just wanted to make a few things perfectly clear. If ANYONE would like to join Ralph Weidner, Darryl Gantz, Dave Stuart, Tom Barcroft and myself for Lunch next week, you are welcome to join us. I have also invited Paul Jacobs so he can "witness" and hear the true information that these guys have been trying desperately conceal. I doubt that I can be two people at the same time (during Lunch) but anyone is welcome to join us in Wildwood, MO next week. (lol)
Dave Walden
Glad that was cleared up .Seen these any completed resto pictures
http://www.amcri1.com/1955-ford-gto-rebuild/dsc08951/
Quote from: DarrlyG on June 26, 2012, 06:43:02 PM
I just spoke with Ralph today and he gave alot more information on the XX(S?)29L9B390018. It did have the nose and wing removed and thrown away and was sold by either a sales guy named Lee or Art who worked at Saint Ann Dodge. A Woman also sold cars there but he did not think she was involved in the sale. He is getting the last name of the sales guy who sold it. Both guys are not alive but the person who actually threw the parts away is alive and retired from Signal Dodge. He was transferred from the Bodyshop at Saint Ann Dodge to the Signal Dodge Dealership. Ralph said Gene Gerber was a co-owner of Saint Ann Dodge and was involved in all sorts of switching cars such as the converting of this Daytona car. The original engine was also supposedly trashed the third year it was in operation and a guy in Illinois still has the damaged block. The floor pans were also completely rotted out. He is sending me pictures of the car later tonight and I will try and figure out how to post them here. Interesting stuff for sure.
Cool stuff........
And Dave... Hiya !! :nana:
Wish I could attend the "lunch and learn".......
I inadvertently moved the comments below into the other thread (primarily because of the first part of the reply in which they were inserted), but am re-posting them here for clarity's sake...
Quote from: hemigeno on June 29, 2012, 03:05:19 PM
... a couple of things are evident:
> Tony's Daytona is legit, and the XS vs. XX on the title/registration is a common trait with many if not all Daytonas
> Whether a car was originally sold with a wing and nosecone is more a function of its unique history and heritage rather than a question of its pedigree... now it may be important if the car is represented as a "survivor" (I don't like using that term, but don't know what else to use at the moment) - and I'm not saying that's the case, but it's the only instance I can think of where knowing that the original nose/wing was discarded or not makes any real difference.
> Debate about Dave's opinion of the 'Nats judging program (past or present) isn't germane to this thread's topic of wing cars converted for sale. It seems more like an attack on the messenger. If there is a problem with the information that Darryl (DarrlyG) or Dave has presented, then stick to that particular debate.
:Twocents:
:cheers:
what an interesting topic. im enjoying reading it, and cant wait to see more developement. i had infact been been around through that era (being on the side of an older fart) :smilielol: and remember also being a mopar freak as a teenager that here in the midwest (st.louis metropolitan area) a couple winged cars did infact grow roots on car lots waiting for their white knight to come save them. my first car of choice was the 68 charger in 1972. the datona and super bird didnt really grow on me. then all of a sudden these cars had vanished off the lots. i never heard or thought that they had been transformed, but in those days, who cared? cars wernt a collector piece. they were transportation and when the engines quit, junk them and get a new one. if we have know then what we know now, my mother wouldnt have thrown out all my original beatles cards and baseball cards. :smilielol:
Quote from: nvrbdn on July 02, 2012, 11:57:36 AM
what an interesting topic. im enjoying reading it, and cant wait to see more developement. i had infact been been around through that era (being on the side of an older fart) :smilielol: and remember also being a mopar freak as a teenager that here in the midwest (st.louis metropolitan area) a couple winged cars did infact grow roots on car lots waiting for their white knight to come save them. my first car of choice was the 68 charger in 1972. the datona and super bird didnt really grow on me. then all of a sudden these cars had vanished off the lots. i never heard or thought that they had been transformed, but in those days, who cared? cars wernt a collector piece. they were transportation and when the engines quit, junk them and get a new one. if we have know then what we know now, my mother wouldnt have thrown out all my original beatles cards and baseball cards. :smilielol:
wow your old :nana: :nana: :nana: :D
:smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :rofl:
Quote from: hemigeno on July 02, 2012, 10:06:09 AM
I inadvertently moved the comments below into the other thread (primarily because of the first part of the reply in which they were inserted), but am re-posting them here for clarity's sake...
Quote from: hemigeno on June 29, 2012, 03:05:19 PM
... a couple of things are evident:
> Tony's Daytona is legit, and the XS vs. XX on the title/registration is a common trait with many if not all Daytonas
> Whether a car was originally sold with a wing and nosecone is more a function of its unique history and heritage rather than a question of its pedigree... now it may be important if the car is represented as a "survivor" (I don't like using that term, but don't know what else to use at the moment) - and I'm not saying that's the case, but it's the only instance I can think of where knowing that the original nose/wing was discarded or not makes any real difference.
> Debate about Dave's opinion of the 'Nats judging program (past or present) isn't germane to this thread's topic of wing cars converted for sale. It seems more like an attack on the messenger. If there is a problem with the information that Darryl (DarrlyG) or Dave has presented, then stick to that particular debate.
:Twocents:
Hey Gene,
Just for further clarification, these Gentleman we are meeting for lunch have no idea of the may-lay that occurred on this forum last week. They do not know who owns the car and it has never been a witch hunt against anyone. (Some information just
luckily falls into the right hands!) While talking with Mr. Weidner about all of the stories and "oddities" concerning Chrysler, this Daytona subject matter happened to be one of the areas that came up and it raised some eyebrows because we were familiar with the vehicle. According to Mr. Wiedner, Gene Gerber was co-owner of St. Ann Dodge (BOTH owners from that Dealership died many years ago) and he was known for "fudging" a few of the vehicles that were sold there.
Another story that was interesting (which I wasn't unaware of) is that ALL T/A Challengers and AAR Cudas were driven approximately 500 miles before they were placed on the Dealer's Lot and offered for sale to the public. He stated that they were all basically "used cars" by the time the original owners titled them! Mr. Wiedner was personally responsible for the sales (and driving quotas) of 13 vehicles of those types. Dave Stuart thinks that mandate was specific to only the first shipments but Ralph believed it was for the entire production throughout the Country. Apparently, they could not sell them until they had accumulated a certain amount of miles to comply with the racing program. There are no conspiracies to any of this, just the truth and the truth has no agenda!
Another story that was interesting (which I wasn't unaware of) is that ALL T/A Challengers and AAR Cudas were driven approximately 500 miles before they were placed on the Dealer's Lot and offered for sale to the public. He stated that they were all basically "used cars" by the time the original owners titled them! Mr. Wiedner was personally responsible for the sales (and driving quotas) of 13 vehicles of those types. Dave Stuart thinks that mandate was specific to only the first shipments but Ralph believed it was for the entire production throughout the Country. Apparently, they could not sell them until they had accumulated a certain amount of miles to comply with the racing program. There are no conspiracies to any of this, just the truth and the truth has no agenda!
[/quote]
Hey Dave,
Interesting?...If Ralph believed it was for the "entire" production of Trans Am cars, how does that explain Barry Washington's "documented" video of a 173 original mile T/A
Mike
as REO Speedwagon once said, the tales grow taller on down the line
i'm still trying to figure out the diabolical conspiracy in regards to 390018
With Chrysler anything was possible.Would you believe this car existed without proof
Story is from a 1970 paper The car which has been displayed at Dodge Dealers around the country has never been titled.Cost $10.000 to build it
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/101_2861.jpg)
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/101_2863.jpg)
Quote from: nascarxx29 on July 05, 2012, 12:10:49 PM
With Chrysler anything was possible.Would you believe this car existed without proof
Story is from a 1970 paper The car which has been displayed at Dodge Dealers around the country has never been titled.Cost $10.000 to build it
No idea what this has to do with the topic(s) at hand, but perhaps it was never sold because no one put 500 miles on it :lol:
What dealers and Chrysler concocted.Were cars like these anythig was possible and this one has proof
And lot converted cars if evidence exists. No proof yet otherwise .Just myths :Twocents:
Man this topic i started sure did :stirthepot: Sooooo, back to Superbirds that had their feathers plucked by the dealers.... :popcrn:
Also applies to stories you hear at car shows.
(http://challengefuture.org/static/upload/uploads/abe-lincoln.jpg)
Quote from: GOTWING on July 05, 2012, 01:00:57 PM
Man this topic i started sure did :stirthepot: Sooooo, back to Superbirds that had their feathers plucked by the dealers.... :popcrn:
It happened a couple times, but by federal decree each converted car had a piece of moon rock sealed into the torsion bar crossmember. You wouldn't doubt a NASA retiree if he told you that, right?
OK, I'll try and get this back on topic.
A friend of mine's family had a CP dealer in Canton Il (small town). They sold two Superbirds from their location.
The first was a limelight sixpack car that my friend actually used to go to his JR Prom with the dealer tags still on it!
The second car is a little more interesting and relevant to this thread. It was B5 blue 440 bbl car that their Chrysler zone rep had as as a company car. As the weather changed to summer and he was wanting a car with A/C, they took the car as a demo or "program car" and it sat on their lot for a few more months. The eventual buyer was an older gentleman that didn't like the way the wing towered over the rear of the car so he stipulated in the purchase agreement that the wing had to come off. they removed the wing, filled the mounting holes and repainted the tops of the quarters. They simply tossed the three wing pieces into the trunk when they were done.
He always chuckled whenever he saw that car driving around and said it looked like a big "needle" running down the road!
:Twocents:
Quote from: pettybird on July 05, 2012, 12:28:39 PM
.....took a position that can't be defended........I don't have to prove to you that I'm right....
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Anyone involved in a debate should be responsible to "prove" whatever point they express. How it starts is totally irrelevant! I was able to speak on the phone today with Bernard Klein who was also a Zone Manager for Chrysler during the same era. He too confirmed the T/A & AAR "story" about having to drive them before they were sold. (He is mentioned in the video link below) Four DOM's for Chrysler -
Ralph Wiedner, Tom Barcroft, Dave Stuart and Bernard Klein ALL stating the same
erroneous information. Quite honestly Doug, you seem to be the type of guy who would argue with Barry Bonds about how to hit home runs!
Since many of you couldn't join the discussion today, I thought I would bring the discussion to everyone! :2thumbs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwd4aZ19H_c
Since many of you couldn't join the discussion today, I thought I would bring the discussion to everyone! :2thumbs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwd4aZ19H_c
That was great Dave!, very gracious of you and Ralph to share your discussion.....Maybe someday you can ask Ralph if he has any knowledge of the 71 T/A "myth" that has reared it's head over the decades...
Mike
Quote from: DAY CLONA on July 05, 2012, 07:29:24 PM
Since many of you couldn't join the discussion today, I thought I would bring the discussion to everyone! :2thumbs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwd4aZ19H_c
That was great Dave!, very gracious of you and Ralph to share your discussion.....Maybe someday you can ask Ralph if he has any knowledge of the 71 T/A "myth" that has reared it's head over the decades...
Mike
My pleasure Mike!! It was amusing to get back from lunch to see the mocking that was taking place on this thread while we were out. Ralph is a GREAT guy and has a wealth of information. That video didn't scratch the surface of what he talked about today. I will ask about the 71 T/A and see if he has any recollection surrounding the "myth". Until then, I am looking forward to the video interview of a retired NASA agent discussing moon rocks that were sealed in torsion bars cross members! :hah: :2thumbs:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7278246&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD
RS23U1G
Spoken Like a Bull
Reged: Apr 20 2012
Loc: Detroit Re: Superbird?? [Re: Cab_Burge]
#7278533 - Thu Jul 05 2012 01:35 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
That's a fact...
Had a warehouse here, downtown...
Full of wing car 'returns' from the dealerships...
They were pulling the wings, and the nose pieces off and putting stock grilles, and bumpers back on to try and move 'em...
Quote from: nascarxx29 on July 06, 2012, 09:36:54 AM
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7278246&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD
RS23U1G
Spoken Like a Bull
Reged: Apr 20 2012
Loc: Detroit Re: Superbird?? [Re: Cab_Burge]
#7278533 - Thu Jul 05 2012 01:35 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
That's a fact...
Had a warehouse here, downtown...
Full of wing car 'returns' from the dealerships...
They were pulling the wings, and the nose pieces off and putting stock grilles, and bumpers back on to try and move 'em...
Internal memos (like the ones in "Supercars") show that Chrysler was telling dealers to sell cars...who was doing the conversion? Who ran this "warehouse?" This is exactly the kind of drivel that keeps circulating to perpetuate the myth that so many cars were converted. Ken Brown in Detroit was bringing them in on dealer trades to sell them.
Once cars are pushed onto dealers, they're not Chrysler's cars any more. What other cars were bought back due to slow sales other than the ZL1 Camaros from Fred Gibb? I can't imagine many.
soooo , im thinking of removing my wing and front end and converting my Superbird into a regular road runner, :brickwall: less rear window and A pillars just to see if anyone at the shows notices it. They will tell there buddy SEE MAN i told you they did that back then, :smilielol:
Quote from: GOTWING on July 06, 2012, 12:49:32 PM
soooo , im thinking of removing my wing and front end and converting my Superbird into a regular road runner, :brickwall: less rear window and A pillars just to see if anyone at the shows notices it. They will tell there buddy SEE MAN i told you they did that back then, :smilielol:
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: that would be really cool :D
THE LOCAL SALVAGE YARD WOULD GIVE ME AT LEAST $65.00 IN SCRAP FOR THE "UGLY" PARTS! :smilielol:
Quote from: GOTWING on July 06, 2012, 01:02:44 PM
THE LOCAL SALVAGE YARD WOULD GIVE ME AT LEAST $65.00 IN SCRAP FOR THE "UGLY" PARTS! :smilielol:
I will triple there offer :icon_smile_big:
I will top Stu's offer by 10 dollars AND pay shipping plus give you a genuine piece of Petty memorabilia that has been signed.
Quote from: Ghoste on July 06, 2012, 01:05:20 PM
I will top Stu's offer by 10 dollars AND pay shipping plus give you a genuine piece of Petty memorabilia that has been signed.
i have a 69 charger i'll trade you :icon_smile_big:
Damn! Can't top that so I'm out.
Quote from: Ghoste on July 06, 2012, 04:25:54 PM
Damn! Can't top that so I'm out.
you have to top my offer by 10.00 now :nana: :icon_smile_big:
:hah: :hah: :hah: :hah: :hah: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Quote from: nascarxx29 on July 05, 2012, 12:10:49 PM
With Chrysler anything was possible.Would you believe this car existed without proof
Story is from a 1970 paper The car which has been displayed at Dodge Dealers around the country has never been titled.Cost $10.000 to build it
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/101_2861.jpg)
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/101_2863.jpg)
Not to re-derail the thread, but does anyone notice on this car how, at first glance, the nose looks like a regular '68, but it's over a foot farther forward and the hood sits back there?
Does this car still exist?
here are some pics of the car coming out of the garage that it was stored in from late 1971 thru 2005 when it was sold
more
thanks for sharing
Hey Tony,
I just got back from Carlisle, man did your Daytona ever look good. What a great looking car. I will have to add the white with red interior and stripe to my "dream" list of Daytona's.
Thanks for bringing it so I could enjoy it.
Best of luck with it.
Dave
Quote from: DarrlyG on June 26, 2012, 06:43:02 PM
I just spoke with Ralph today and he gave alot more information on the XX(S?)29L9B390018. It did have the nose and wing removed and thrown away and was sold by either a sales guy named Lee or Art who worked at Saint Ann Dodge. A Woman also sold cars there but he did not think she was involved in the sale. He is getting the last name of the sales guy who sold it. Both guys are not alive but the person who actually threw the parts away is alive and retired from Signal Dodge. He was transferred from the Bodyshop at Saint Ann Dodge to the Signal Dodge Dealership. Ralph said Gene Gerber was a co-owner of Saint Ann Dodge and was involved in all sorts of switching cars such as the converting of this Daytona car. The original engine was also supposedly trashed the third year it was in operation and a guy in Illinois still has the damaged block. The floor pans were also completely rotted out. He is sending me pictures of the car later tonight and I will try and figure out how to post them here. Interesting stuff for sure.
Where are the pics?
these were taken while the engine and trans were still in the car
The yellow Superbird in one of the previous posts with the standard nose was bought cheap with a damaged nosecone and had the standard frontend put on it. A friend of mine in Pittsburgh who owned a bodyshop back in the day was responsible for this car. He has turned out some awesome Mopars in his time.
Quote from: DarrlyG on June 26, 2012, 06:43:02 PM
I just spoke with Ralph today and he gave alot more information on the XX(S?)29L9B390018. It did have the nose and wing removed and thrown away and was sold by either a sales guy named Lee or Art who worked at Saint Ann Dodge. A Woman also sold cars there but he did not think she was involved in the sale. He is getting the last name of the sales guy who sold it. Both guys are not alive but the person who actually threw the parts away is alive and retired from Signal Dodge. He was transferred from the Bodyshop at Saint Ann Dodge to the Signal Dodge Dealership. Ralph said Gene Gerber was a co-owner of Saint Ann Dodge and was involved in all sorts of switching cars such as the converting of this Daytona car. The original engine was also supposedly trashed the third year it was in operation and a guy in Illinois still has the damaged block. The floor pans were also completely rotted out. He is sending me pictures of the car later tonight and I will try and figure out how to post them here. Interesting stuff for sure.
Quote from: DarrlyG on June 24, 2012, 03:01:54 PM
Hey Guys. I am new here and this thread is the type of information that will get you in trouble on other websites. I know because the information I obtained was not welcome on another site. I think the car is being judged at a show this Summer and someone wants to keep the story hidden. I am waiting for further information from Ralph Wiedner on a Daytona that was sold in Missouri from a dealership called St. Ann Dodge in Saint Ann, Mo. Ralph has been a long time friend and was the Zone Manager for Chrysler back in 1969. He is absolutely positive that one of their Daytona's was sold without the front nose or the rear wing. No one would buy the car so they took them off. He also said that the left over parts were thrown away in their body shop dumpster. I asked if he was serious and he said YES. The car is also registered as a XS29L9B390018. I know this because I talked with a guy named Jim Hertz who is in charge of all the DMV records across the Country. Anyone can call and check. There is no record of an XX car listed with the DMV that has those last 6 sequence numbers. He is sending me the microfiche printouts on the car. Ralph still keeps contact with the original salesman who sold the car and is getting all of the records. When he gets the info I will list it here to give some credibility to all the old wives tales that have been going around.
Quote from: Aero426 on June 24, 2012, 03:28:31 PM
This is 390018 before restoration. Does not look like a car that was stripped of its parts. But even if it was, it is still a real Daytona.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=49421.0;attach=88200;image)
Quote from: held1823 on July 08, 2012, 09:03:31 AM
although your photos show otherwise, that car was obviously stripped of its aero body parts, just like the chrysler sales rep's photogenic memory said.
i'm told by a renowned expert that i need to open my mind to reality, and let the flawed recollections of others trump any photographic proof. this post is my first attempt at following his sage advice...
Thank you to whomever cleaned out this thread.
Quote from: Arnie Cunningham on August 27, 2012, 09:45:01 PM
Thank you to whomever cleaned out this thread.
:yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: GENO
Better late than never...
:slap:
I was talking to my mother a few months back and she was talking to her parts manager about my daytona clone. he was telling her that he was a parts manager for a dealer in the mid west for many years back then and he remembers a few sets of wings and nose cones that were removed from cars they couldn't sell sitting in the corner of the top floor of there parts department for years. He now works for another local dealer so I'll have to track him down to find out the whole story.
I tend to take that with a grain of salt though. How many dealerships had "a few" wing cars in inventory at all let alone sitting around long enough to have to convert. I'm still a skeptic.
Quote from: Ghoste on October 14, 2012, 12:31:41 PM
I tend to take that with a grain of salt though. How many dealerships had "a few" wing cars in inventory at all let alone sitting around long enough to have to convert. I'm still a skeptic.
Rather than simply type an opinion, why don't you (or anyone else here) provide contradictory verbiage or proof from a "credible source" that supports your hypotheticals? I posted an interview from a retired Chrysler Executive that I had met and talked to one time prior to this interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwd4aZ19H_c and he was called a "liar" regarding his recollection of the scenario. The truth of the matter is that his "accusers" were not willing to consider the information because it was not conducive to their embellished and grandiose story of the vehicle's history. Rather than accept the evidence of the front nose (which was the replacement offered by Chrysler in 1972) they concocted a story about its unique originality! The evidence was staring them right in the face but rather than accept the facts, a story was fabricated to accommodate their agenda. Make things up to sensationalize the vehicle!
Spin the facts to confuse or mislead the audience! Compromise or distort the truth in order to protect your reputation! This seems to be protocol for the modern day Mopar Hobby!
It amazes me how those who were not around during that time (1969-70) have more credible information than those who WERE there when they share their stories. These were hunks of metal that were made to be sold in 1969. They were not the Gold Collectable Idols that many seem to think they are now. I work with General Motors, Ford and Chrysler. Every venue has past Employees that have similar stories as it relates to the unorthodox things that were done to cars in order to sell them back in the day. You think the Daytona stories are far fetched, you should hear some of the recollections about the Boss 429 conversions at the Kar Kraft Brighton Plant! It must be a conspiracy amongst a group of 1960' & 70's Automotive Employees, members of different auto manufacturers who do not know each other, yet they all convey similar stories. :lol:
You're dragging that up again? Not much for carrying a grudge are you? Anyway, I offered my OPINION, yes an opinion, based on a position of skepticism and with that OPINION, not a statement of fact but an opinion, offered my reason for thinking so. Do you have a credible reason to offer an opinion counter to mine? If so, please freely offer it. Much like the all TA were mandated to be driven a minimum mileage before delivery debate I only ask for actual proof in this long standing tale. It seems like everyone has HEARD of many wing cars being converted to standard versions but very very very few have been able to offer anything other than hearsay evidence.
If you have some accurate numbers on how many were converted Dave or some previously top secret photos of these many cars that were converted please, make me wrong. I truly want to be wrong if that is what it takes to get actual evidence on some of these things because whether you choose to believe me or not, my position has absolutely nothing to do with massaging my bruised ego and everything with being able to establish certain pieces of Mopar folklore as fact or fiction.
No one has disputed in this thread that some were not converted, only that it didn't happen in huge numbers.
:Twocents: If you seen this ad back in the day you get the impression thats how they were at the dealers
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/101_3932SB.jpg)
Quote from: Ghoste on October 14, 2012, 04:41:12 PM
You're dragging that up again? .......I offered my OPINION, yes an opinion, based on a position of skepticism.....Do you have a credible reason to offer an opinion counter to mine? If so, please freely offer it.....
Your response is a prime example of why your "opinions" lack credibility. The gentleman in the video talked about a Daytona that was converted to a regular Charger in order to be sold. (Reference the 4:45 thru 8:45 mark of the video. He specifically addressed what this thread is about.) He gave a few examples of things that were done to sell the less desirable cars back in the day. THAT is why I re-posted it! Had you took the time to investigate things before speaking out, your opinions might be based on substance rather than unsubstantiated "skepticism"! :2thumbs:
:popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn:
Except Dave, had you bothered to follow it more closely you would realize I was referencing a post in this thread, not your you tube video. I'm sure you would like for me to just blindly accept anything you say but I prefer facts that can be proven to ones that are hearsay. Now before you come back and accuse me of calling your friend a liar again (which by the way, I have never done) let me make it clear I don't know your friend, all I know is that there seems to be a growing myth that LOTS of wing cars were converted. I say I don't believe it, I want more proof. Sorry that is my right no matter how much it pisses you off. By the way, Mr Weidner says in the video that he HEARD of ONE 69 "Daytona 500" that had the wing and nose removed but that he never witnessed it. He doesn't say a bunch, he says he heard of a single example. That is my point, almost all of these stories are based on someone HEARING about it. We have seen very very little real evidence of it happening. Again, I never have said that it didn't happen, I said I don't believe it was as common as current folklore would lead us to believe.
Bring me some facts Dave, not hearsay. Because otherwise all you are giving me is YOUR opinion and your opinion is no more credible to me than mine is to you.
I don't see any reason that a whole lot of Superbirds weren't converted. All they had to do was: take the nose-valance panels-nose supports and hood off (the easy part), take the fenders off including the mastic holding the inner fenders to the outer fenders, remove the inner metal splash guards because the Dodge pieces on the car didn't fit Plymouth fenders, rip the latch tray support off the car because it was spot welded on the car and would interfere with the Belvedere pieces. Decide if the hood pins should be tossed in case more work was needed to fit them to a RR hood. Then get all the new pieces, including a new front wiring harness, headlights, bottom fender braces, hood latch release and supporting panel, plus a few other pieces. Put the Plymouth fenders and inner splash guards in place and undercoat it. Put everything back together and match some paint both on the outside and engine compartment ( because they ripped the seam sealer and latch tray support off). Then block off the headlight vacuum.
Or maybe they just sold it at discount price as it was, like the Ken Brown ads from 1970 said, instead.
sounds like someone here needs a hug
Bryan :popcrn:
Quote from: Redbird on October 14, 2012, 06:41:09 PM
I don't see any reason that a whole lot of Superbirds weren't converted. All they had to do was: take the nose-valance panels-nose supports and hood off (the easy part), take the fenders off including the mastic holding the inner fenders to the outer fenders, remove the inner metal splash guards because the Dodge pieces on the car didn't fit Plymouth fenders, rip the latch tray support off the car because it was spot welded on the car and would interfere with the Belvedere pieces. Decide if the hood pins should be tossed in case more work was needed to fit them to a RR hood. Then get all the new pieces, including a new front wiring harness, headlights, bottom fender braces, hood latch release and supporting panel, plus a few other pieces. Put the Plymouth fenders and inner splash guards in place and undercoat it. Put everything back together and match some paint both on the outside and engine compartment ( because they ripped the seam sealer and latch tray support off). Then block off the headlight vacuum.
Not to mention the expense of the all the new parts and then PAYING YOUR SKILLED LABOR for the many hours of conversion. This would not be a quick or cheap proposition. Common sense should prevail here that that the wholesale changeover of cars was not likely.
And thats all I'm trying to say. I just don't think it was as common as it seems like it is being made out to be. And I sure as hell wasn't questioning Mr. Weidner's recollection of it.
Quote from: Ghoste on October 14, 2012, 06:40:38 PM
Bring me some facts Dave, not hearsay. All I've seen so far is YOUR opinion based on something you were told.
It's apparent that you expect a notarized document from Chrysler regarding things of this nature. You won't find that! Nor will you find notarized documents from Chrysler stating that the Deanships repainted cars for Customers or switched wheels, or applied stripping after the fact, or removed Factory stripes if the Customer requested, or Air Conditioning added, etc..... Things of such nature absolutely happened and the only reference you will usually find are the testimonials from the individuals who worked for Chrysler (or the Dealerships) that can verify the scenarios. Sorry ghoste but "hearsay" from those Executives who worked for Chrysler during the day hold a bit more credibility than your personal view. One thing for sure, your "skepticism" doesn't change the reality or recollection of their personal experiences. Your "opinion" also doesn't bother or affect me whatsoever! Take it for what it is or isn't. :2thumbs:
Actually I have never asked for that either and I am well aware of how things went down at dealerships. (worked in them for many years myself) I express skepticism that lots were converted and you challenged my credibility based on the you tube video that you implied I didn't watch. I did watch it. He mentioned a single unit that he heard of and never witnessed. So I would say that his reality and recollection do in fact, back my opinion, that very few were done and that most of the stories about it happening are hearsay.
Somehow I never thought Ken Brown was selling 6bbl Superbirds out of the goodness of their hearts for $ 3195 in 1970. I believe that was the close out price in the Fall of 1970.
Quote from: Ghoste on October 14, 2012, 07:18:28 PM
I express skepticism that lots were converted and you challenged my credibility based on the you tube video that you implied I didn't watch. I did watch it. He mentioned a single unit that he heard of and never witnessed.
Wow! Really? Is that your way to back off from YOUR initiating attack? I NEVER challenged your credibility or said that it happened on a regular basis!! You obviously have me confused with someone else. The ONLY reference I EVER made to a winged car conversion was the one mentioned in the video interview with Ralph. Please point out ONE post where I EVER said that ANY other wing car had been converted.
I am buying my Son a new Challenger for his 16th Birthday in November. Would you like to hear about all the "custom" changes (for him) that the Dealership is willing to do on one of their Inventory cars?
Quote from: nascarxx29 on October 14, 2012, 04:54:17 PM
:Twocents: If you seen this ad back in the day you get the impression thats how they were at the dealers
i see that ad and realize the copy editor in the newspaper's advertising department didn't have a photo of a roadrunner superbird, so he used the closest thing he had on hand. it's unlikely he could have googled the correct image to use.
If a customer walked into a dealership and wanted to buy a car and have the wing stuff removed, the dealers around here would have jumped at the chance to sell a car, any car. As for after the sale, all kinds of things happened to these cars throughout the years. I guarantee if I had owned a Daytona or a bird in the late 70's, early 80's and wrecked it, I would have done whatever possible to get the car back on the road. Front clips were plentiful and cheap. I had several friends with shaker hood Cudas and as soon as the carb backfired and burned the shaker, it was removed, trashed and the hood removed and trashed as well. I remember a friend of mine folding his perfect shaker hood in half and throwing it into the dumpster. We were trashing these cars left and right. They were cheap transportation. We assumed these cars would continue to decline in value until they were crushed and recycled. I never dreamed that 40 years later I would have buildings full of old Mopars.
My attack? You went on the attack I merely defended. All of my "attacks" came after you challenged my right to post an opinion. You claimed I was doing it without facts and then went on a rant about all the things that were done at dealerships to sell cars. Please oh please forgive me if I mistook statements like that to mean that you believed that many wing cars were converted. Your response to my wrongful request for facts to back your statement resulted in you telling me that my opinions have no credibility. That strangely makes it look like you were on the attack but since that is only my opinion and my opinions lack credibility, I am obviously wrong there as well.
My opinion on this topic is exactly the same as it was at the beginning of the thread whether you think I have credibility or not.
Quote from: Ghoste on October 14, 2012, 08:08:05 PM
All of my "attacks" came after you challenged my right to post an opinion.
You conveniently forgot the cadence of responses prior to Gene "cleaning up" the thread. I didn't! :2thumbs:
If you are talking about the part where it spun off into the TA debate, I haven't forgotten at all and I stand by everything that I stated in that other topic. I even stand by my cadence. In fact, I tried to be civil in that issue and brought it up in a different forum in an effort to avoid acrimony that accompanied it here and to expose it to a greater audience so as to arrive at some consensus of opinion, or did you conveniently forget that? Different topic and different circumstances. :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
I would think that a lot of folks would agree that plenty of used Superbirds got Road Runner front ends after an accident, there are a good number of pictures of that. There is even a really good picture of a ruined Superbird in a swimming pool, not to mention a picture of someone cold chiseling a ruined Superbird quarter panel to get at the wing supports.
I am of the belief that there could have been, and was at least one Superbird converted to a Road Runner when new. I don't see a conspiracy one way or another. But for me, with the amount of work required to change a new car around, and I don't believe C/P would look kindly on a dealer finding a used/salvage Road Runner for conversion parts; ordering all new parts for a general or approved policy of conversion is a pretty good stretch.
Many of us like the cars. As someone smarter than me said " Some say they are ugly, but everybody looks twice".
Smile easy
Quote from: ECS on October 14, 2012, 07:08:48 PM
Your "opinion" also doesn't bother or affect me whatsoever! Take it for what it is or isn't. :2thumbs:
sounds like it does, to me anyway
Bryan
:Twocents: My friends superbird came from Don Horrow motors they changed the price often from $3850 to $3395 on stock #2749
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/DonHorrow2.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/DonHorrowsuperbird.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/3NewNJsuperbirds.jpg)
Quote from: A383Wing on October 14, 2012, 08:55:39 PM
sounds like it does, to me anyway....
You must have a better computer system than mine. I don't hear any "sound" coming from the typed responses. :scratchchin: :lol:
:popcrn: Does anyone have any first hand accounts of the Superbird or Daytona getting its wings clipped? Right now, all I'm hearing is hearsay amongst the bickering about hearsay. Or show me a car that was put back to base model. Either way, it sounds like people crying over spilled milk that someone said was spilled.
Like most things in life, the appearance of what is taking place is the "effect". The "cause" is usually something very different. There is a lot more to this story than the conversion of Superbirds back into standard Road Runners.
Quote from: ECS on October 14, 2012, 09:31:35 PM
You must have a better computer system than mine. I don't hear any "sound" coming from the typed responses. :scratchchin: :lol:
I probably do, because all I hear is noise from the other end
Bryan
Quote from: A383Wing on October 14, 2012, 10:45:50 PM
I probably do, because all I hear is noise from the other end
You might need to have that fixed. Good luck!
Quote from: stroker400 wedge on October 14, 2012, 10:29:37 PM
I'm hearing is hearsay amongst the bickering about hearsay.......
Please explain why Chrysler executives that share their personal experiences (with this regards to this information) is considered "hearsay"? I would hate to see if some of you were lawyers when "expert" witnesses were called into Court provide their "expert" testimony. You would constantly be standing up "objecting" to the Judge claiming their expert testimony is nothing more than "hearsay". Sorry guys but no one can transport you back to 1969 to personally witness these things. The only option left is to listen to those who were there and actually were part of the "hearsay". If what they say doesn't make you happy, tell them they're wrong and re-write history to accommodate your own particular agenda! :2thumbs:
Since you failed to list my full sentence in your argument, I'll mention it again. I'm looking for a first hand account or an actual car. Nothing else is going to work. It's just a bunch of wind. I'm looking to cut the crap I guess you can say.
Quote from: stroker400 wedge on October 14, 2012, 11:04:45 PM
I'm looking for a first hand account or an actual car. Nothing else is going to work. It's just a bunch of wind. I'm looking to cut the crap I guess you can say.
You got it from a Chrysler Executive but don't want to believe it! The Dealership Employees (that he had a personal working relationship with) told them that they did this TO THE DAYTONA THAT HE ORDERED FOR THE DEALERSHIP! Why would they have lied to him in 1969 about doing this to a car? The information came directly from him! It wan't told by the typical
someone knew someone, that heard about someone, who knew a guy, whose Friend told him about a guy that...... I noticed that some of you who classify Ralph Weidner's information as "hearsay" have engaged in MANY conversations on this forum that require responding to information that you have not personally been involved with or seen. Is there a different logic or a double standard with regards to "
acceptable hearsay" and "
non-acceptible hearsay" for those who provide advice or answers questions about situations that they don't positively know are legitimate? :scratchchin: Why don't you classify this for what it really is? Someone outside of your little click expresses information you may not be aware of and you attack the content or messenger. You guys are right! It was all a bunch of hogwash. The man was probably just crazy or something! I'm sure you will fabrica.....uh.....I mean figure out the truth sooner or later. :2thumbs: :lol: :rofl:
Considering that vid was made recently, what makes you think he was telling the truth now? Everyone lies, that's why I'm asking for proof first hand, or actual car.
let's cut to the chase, mr. walden, rather than trying to be cute and clever.
the daytona SPECIFICALLY referred as being striped of its parts when new is vin #XX29L9B390018, which happens to be the white car that recently received OE Gold certification at the mopar nationals. you obviously have a hard on of unspecified origin in regards to the current owner of this daytona, but that is a whole other topic and not germane to this thread. let's stick to the "evidence" that has been presented thus far.
your "worked there, back in the day" source of "expert" testimony, with regard to 390018 being converted to a regular charger, is human. humans often times make mistakes. while his credentials may be redoubtable, this expert is fully capable of misconstruing the facts, especially four decades later. he isn't lying or deliberately trying to deceive anyone, but the end result is not necessarily how things truly were. the only "evidence" this expert presents, is his spoken word. unless i am mistaken, your side rested its case at this point, with nothing else offered as evidence.
the opposing side of this debate has presented numerous photos (many of them can be found in this very thread) of 390018, still wearing all of its daytona-specific parts. the "back in the day" ownership trail has been established, up to and including the present day owner. given the overwhelming amount of contradictory evidence, from both human recollection and photographic documentation, your expert witness would fail to convince any judge or jury that his recollection of 390018, from over 40 years ago, is accurate.
yet we sheeple are too narrow minded to accept his word as gospel.
Quote from: held1823 on October 15, 2012, 12:23:40 AM
let's cut to the chase, ...the daytona SPECIFICALLY referred as being striped of its parts when new is vin #XX29L9B390018, this expert is fully capable of misconstruing the facts, especially four decades later.
You want to cut to the chase? Who cares what parts were changed or replaced? It doesn't diminish the restoration or make this car any less of a "real" Daytona! It actually adds to the uniqueness of the car's past. So why lie and spin a bunch of garbage about its history?
I'm sure you know more about the car that Ralph ordered for the St. Ann Dealership than he did. Of course the difference in paint hues and the fact that the grill was a 1972 version have no bearing with reality whatsoever.....right? You simply see what you want to see!
I wonder if Tom Hoover and Norm Krauss were "misconstrued" with their recollections of their involvement with Chrysler vehicles? Does your "four decade" logic and assessments apply to those guys or is your hypocrisy limited to certain individuals? Should ALL retired people be discounted when you don't want to accept their recollections? I wonder if Carl Cameron was "misconstrued" when he told me his inspiration for designing the 1966 Charger was a 1956 Cadillac? When talking with Carrol Shelby a few years ago at SEMA I wonder if he was "misconstrued" when he talked about racing his cars? I wonder if Ed Roth was "misconstrued" when he told me how he designed the Orbitron or his passion for teaching Sunday School Church Class? Thanks for opening my eyes about all of these people who probably "misconstrued" the stories about their careers! And to think many Automobile shows (currently airing on Cable Television) STILL interview these retirees to get their "misconstrued" versions of the past! Genius observation....pure Genius!
Obviously, there's no light at the end of this tunnel
Mr. Weidner did not remove the parts himself, did not supervise the removal himself, did not observe them being removed, did not see the removed parts, did not see the car after the fact and he is the one who states clearly that he did not witness any of this but some employees told him it happened. He heard that it took place and he said that. That pretty much makes it hearsay evidence. The fact that he was a district sales manager for that zone doesn't have anything to do with any of it.
I keep using the term hearsay because in this topic, most of the stories have been from people who heard about it happening. Not original owners who said they requested it, not ex employees who could at least say they did it, none of that. With only a couple of exceptions this topic has been anecdotal and that is why I keep asking for proof.
I guess it's a good thing we's ain't talking bout Chargers being converted into General Lees. Wouldn't want to see two guys going at it over stupid sh*t or anything. :smilielol:
dave, since you continually rewrite or paraphrase other people to suit your ever-changing point of view, answer two simple yes or no questions.
do you even remotely consider that the gentleman's recollection, be it first hand or otherwise, might not be exact?
you insist 390018 had the aero pieces removed prior to retail delivery, calling the current version of things a total fabrication. verbatim, you state
So why lie and spin a bunch of garbage about its history
does anyone outside YOUR click agree with this assertion?
Quote from: Ghoste on October 15, 2012, 05:52:29 AM
Mr. Weidner did not remove the parts himself, did not supervise the removal himself, did not observe them being removed, did not see the removed parts, did not see the car after the fact and he is the one who states clearly that he did not witness any of this but some employees told him it happened. He heard that it took place and he said that. That pretty much makes it hearsay evidence.
Take the name "Mr. Weidner" out of the scenario and you have described the basis for just about any Biography, History Book or Documentary that has been reported after the fact. According to your logic, modern day Titanic historians have no business writing about the ordeal because they weren't there and didn't see it sink. I guess all "hearsay evidence" is flawed or inaccurate. ESPECIALLY the subject matter that you don't want to believe. :2thumbs: Just curious.......did you argue with your History Instructors or did you accept their teachings on George Washington? Don't tell me that there were people around (back then) who documented his life! You weren't there and for all you know the "hearsay" may have been inaccurately documented by individuals with flawed recollections!
I'm sure you're right though. How about I give you Ralph's phone number and you call him to correct his flawed memory on how things really happened?! You have convinced me that the Body shop Employees at the Dealership, who Ralph personally knew, that worked on his C Class race car MUST have "misconstrued" their recollection of what they did to the car (that he ordered for their Dealership) in 1969. I bet it was a conspiracy and they "misconstrued" the information because they knew it would be a point of contention 40 years later. Truth be known, they probably were working on a Ford Pinto but ol' Ralph and the Dealership Employees just got caught up in the hype and sensationalized the story as the years went by. Yes....that sounds feasible to me! I think that's the story I'll start
misconstruing from here forward. Its been about 4 months since I heard the story. It hasn't been forty years but at least there is a "4" in the duration of time since he told it! Or should I wait a bit longer until it becomes even more controversial "hearsay"? :scratchchin:
:popcrn: :popcrn:WHAT YEAR PINTO ,WAS IT A SPorTABOUT??? DID IT HAVE A V8 AND GO 200 MPH ON CLOSED TRACK?/??? WHAT A BUNCH OF HOT AIR AND BULL PILES. NOW ITS HIS RACE CREW AND ON ON ON ON AND ON.//WELL WAS FUN FOR A FEW SECONDS but its all boring now...bye :2thumbs: :misbehaving: :misbehaving: :horse: :horse: :horse: : :horse: :horse: :2thumbs:
Whatever Dave. Since I really think you have some other agenda in this entire thing and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with me, you can win. You're right, I'm wrong. Now you can go argue with whoever it is that you are actually at odds with here.
Quote from: Ghoste on October 15, 2012, 11:32:58 AM
Since I really think you have some other agenda......
Your omniscient capabilities never cease to amaze me. You know what everyone thinks and even what aspects of a person's memory are legitimate or imaginary. No need to worry though ghoste! Tom Barcroft and I are sitting in my office as I type this and are enjoying a good laugh at all of the brilliant hypotheticals expressed here. Tom is also telling how his Father was Ralph's Supervisor in 1969 and how the Corporate Zone Offices were directly across the street from St Ann Dodge. (They were on the eight floor to be exact but that is just "hearsay" from Tom.) For the record, Ralph does not know who owns the Daytona nor does he have any idea as to the controversy that has ensued.
With that said, Tom and I are going to call Ralph and have him contact one of the guys who was actually involved in taking the car apart. He is still around and lives in Illinois. I will have another video made to document the question & answer session. I have personally never met the guy or talked with him. I am also going to invite Gene Lewis or ANYONE else to be present during the interview who would like to attend. If you like ghoste, I will pay for a round trip plane ticket for you to fly in and witness the meeting first hand. (And yes, I am Serious.) That way you can hear their testimonies/stories for yourself. Feel free to tell them to their face how they are simply incorrect about their recollections. I guarantee that I will talk
to your face exactly as I have on this forum. I'll call to get things set up and let me know if you are in! :2thumbs:
Cool! See, you win.
Quote from: Ghoste on October 15, 2012, 12:02:22 PM
Cool! See, you win.
I am going to set this up and was serious about paying to have you join us. I am not a very bright person when it comes to reading between the lines. Should I take your response as a
yes or
no on the full expense paid invitation?
Doesn't matter. You are right whatever you choose.
Quote from: Ghoste on October 15, 2012, 12:10:51 PM
Doesn't matter. You are right whatever you choose.
That's what I thought! Enjoy the sanctuary of your keyboard! :2thumbs:
Dave Walden: What was the exact reasoning for having to take the nose and wing off the Daytona at St Ann Dodge?
:popcrn:
Looking up St Ann dodge. http://www.allstardodgechryslerjeep.com/dealership/about.htm
Celebrating his 30th year in the St Louis Automotive community Vince Capatosta's love of cars and people have been the driving force behind his success. Mr. Capatosta started out small in [[1979 selling]] just the Dodge brand and pre-owned vehicles at his first store, St. Ann Dodge at the intersection of St. Charles Rock Road and Cypress. With his dedication to customer satisfaction and his hands on approach to running
I have nothing to add to either side of the discussion but this:
Quote from: ECS on October 14, 2012, 10:57:43 PM
Quote from: stroker400 wedge on October 14, 2012, 10:29:37 PM
I'm hearing is hearsay amongst the bickering about hearsay.......
Please explain why Chrysler executives that share their personal experiences (with this regards to this information) is considered "hearsay"? I would hate to see if some of you were lawyers when "expert" witnesses were called into Court provide their "expert" testimony. You would constantly be standing up "objecting" to the Judge claiming their expert testimony is nothing more than "hearsay".....
Why is it considered hearsay? Because THAT is the
definition of hearsay
hear·say/ˈhi(ə)rˌsā/
Noun:
1.Information received from other people that cannot be adequately substantiated; rumor.
2.The report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.
thats what Mr. Wiedner says at 7:10 in your video: "...I didn't witness this...but some of the guys at the dealership told me..."
that does not mean it didn't happen, or the account is wrong, but what is wrong with wanting more proof that it did happen as he says it did? :shruggy:
After all, this is the same Mr. Wiedner that stated at 3:20 of the same video that: "...all the Trans Ams and all the Cudas were sold used as-is..." and further discussion on this matter revealed that some were driven and sold at a discount to the dealers, but definately not ALL of them...
Next time you're shopping for a car and the guy tells you its matching numbers, are you going to take his word for it, or are you gonna crawl under the car and take a look for yourself? :scope: Would you expect the guy to get mad that you are questioning his honesty? If you verify it is numbers matching, do you then expect the seller to gloat over you and say "see, I told you!"? :ricky:
I think someone forgot that throughout history people filled out journals and diaries to record thier thoughts and historical events that happened at that time period. In other words, these are a first hand written account. If someone wrote something years after the event happened, that is a second hand account. In other words, there is enough historical documents to get a good understanding of how someone like Washington lived and what took place during his lifetime.
As far as the Titanic. Everything is pure speculation. All accounts were taken a few days after it really happened. Everyone talked about it on the Carpathia and they construed thier own information. But, we have the ship itself for now. And the ship itself is a first hand account evidence. There has been extensive research of the ship itself that we have a really good understanding of how the ship sunk.
Either way, I'm going to take ghostes' ideology on this thread. Everything here is just speculation and hearsay until substantial evidence has come to limelight. The author of this thread can raise his flag high and mighty, :patriot: but until I see substantial proof, this thread rests at the bottom of website with the Volt in my eyes. Now if you want to bump your post count up to 1000, I'm game :2thumbs:
Quote from: richRTSE on October 15, 2012, 04:13:29 PM
Would you expect the guy to get mad that you are questioning his honesty?.....
Not at all! I completely agree with you. What is odd is the manner in which some of you guys react to similar or parallel situations. Ralph's rendition of the past is "hearsay" and has invoked a significant amount of skepticism and condescending attacks. I just got off the phone with Gene Lewis and we were discussing this ordeal. He has a thread about the Owner's Reunion of his Daytona. The same people who are lecturing me about "hearsay" are on THAT thread, congratulating and glad handing the "hearsay" information that he posted there! With all due respect to my Friend Gene, why didn't you all attack his stories as they related to that car? Why didn't you challenge the ability of those "senior" member/previous owners and their rendition or possibly "misconstruing" the old days with respect to the car? Just because they owned it doesn't mean that they didn't confuse their recollection of the circumstances 4 decades later.....right? The car didn't even mean enough to them to keep it! How could you expect any of them to accurately remember information about a car that they sold more than forty years ago?
Tom Barcroft is coming here to tell his personal experiences with this subject matter and post PICTURES of his converted Viper Truck. They were stripped of some of their "unique" parts because Customers did not like them. Since he didn't turn the screws to remove the parts, stand and watch it happen as it was being done, I guess he has no credibility when he states that MANY Dodge Viper Trucks had their wings removed in a similar fashion. He claims the attics at Dealerships had a significant amount of these wings sitting in their lofts. Silly old Tom!!
Quote from: ECS on October 15, 2012, 04:57:46 PM
Not at all! I completely agree with you. What is odd is the manner in which some of you guys react to similar or parallel situations. Ralph's rendition of the past is "hearsay" and has invoked a significant amount of skepticism and condescending attacks. I just got off the phone with Gene Lewis and we were discussing this ordeal. He has a thread about the Owner's Reunion of his Daytona. The same people who are lecturing me about "hearsay" are on THAT thread, congratulating and glad handing the "hearsay" information that he posted there! With all due respect to my Friend Gene, why didn't you all attack his stories as they related to that car? Why didn't you challenge the ability of those "senior" member/previous owners and their rendition or possibly "misconstruing" the old days with respect to the car? Just because they owned it doesn't mean that they didn't confuse their recollection of the circumstances 4 decades later.....right? The car didn't even mean enough to them to keep it! How could you expect any of them to accurately remember information about a car that they sold more than forty years ago?
I don't think there has been anything controversial about Gene's car that would alter the thought process of how Daytonas in general were built or sold. I can accept the black front spoiler as a possibility. However, if Gene posted emphatically that his car came from the factory without fender scoops and had recall wheels, and the original owner "told him so", I don't know that he would be given a free pass.
I'll repeat my earlier question. Can you explain the reasoning why St Ann Dodge removed the nose and wing on 390018?
Quote from: Aero426 on October 15, 2012, 05:28:00 PM
However, if Gene posted emphatically that his car came from the factory without fender scoops and had recall wheels, and the original owner "told him so", I don't know that he would be given a free pass.
Nor should I be.
I think a lot of what's being discussed centers on some misunderstandings of the respective parties' assertions on this topic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but:
Dave/ECS has provided an interview with someone who knows what happened to a
single Daytona "back in the day".
Ghoste,
et al, have NOT called Mr. Wiedner's truthfullness into question with regard to that one car.
I don't know where the notion of widespread Daytona conversions (back to "regular" Chargers) has entered into the discussion, but I don't think it was Dave's intention to make that assertion any more than it was the other members' intention to call Ralph a liar. Getting into the discussion of what is hearsay and what isn't is ancillary to the topic itself. Most of the folks in the wing car community tend to bristle at the notion that wing cars were frequently converted back to their "regular" counterparts by the dealership before an initial sale occurred. Prior to this summer, I would have guessed that the stories about Daytonas being converted back were nothing more than rumors and/or folklore, and that the practice was used more - if not exclusively - on Superbirds. I am more than willing to acknowledge that Tony's car's history changes my perceptions on that topic... but as with most everyone, I'm still skeptical that the practice was widespread. It is impossible to prove exactly how many wing cars were converted back, since any decision to do so was made independently of Chrysler in the first place (i.e. by the dealership), and I can't prove that it wasn't a lot more widespread than what I currently believe to be the case.
Incidentally, Tom's story about his dad peeling the rump stripe off a Y2 Charger 500 (440 auto with A/C if you're taking notes, Danny!) was interesting. As a result of what he did that hot summer's day, that car has some unique history which makes no sense at all unless you hear the background story - in which case it makes perfect sense. That's what we would likely find to be the case with a lot of our modern-day opinions on vintage subjects.
:Twocents:
Is there any tangible proof that the EXACT Daytona that parts were reportedly removed from is actually 390018?
The photos of this car pre-restoration do not seem to support the story.
Quote from: Aero426 on October 15, 2012, 01:47:15 PM
Dave Walden: What was the exact reasoning for having to take the nose and wing off the Daytona at St Ann Dodge?
Hi Everyone,
This is Tom.
One thing to remember here is dealerships are in business to sell vehicles. It's as true today as it was in the 60's and 70's. Sometimes for what ever reason a vehicle goes unsold . ( wrong equipment, high price, unusual color, change in public demand,etc) . Once a vehicle sits on the lot it does 2 things. 1. It costs $$$ each and every day it sits on the lot. 2. Age and deterioration are always at work. They don't get more valuable the longer they sit on the lot. Every once in a while you hear the terminology of the vehicle having a birthday while in inventory. Every dealer wants to turn the inventory in a 60-90 day fashion or quicker but that doesn't always happen. The quick answer to the question is to get the vehicle sold. While we value the wing cars today - that wasn't always the way in all cases. Many dealers struggled to sell the vehicles - many customers didn't like the radical styling. Dealers took actions they felt necessary to move the iron.
As a bit of history. St. Ann Dodge was located literally across the parking lot from the Chrysler Corporate offices in the office building in Northwest Plaza for those familiar with St. Louis. In 1971 the offices moved to the then new Parts Depot in Hazelwood. I remember visiting the old office on Saturdays when Dad went in to get a couple of hours work done. You could look out the office windows and see the dealership lot. Many of the company cars were shipped to St. Ann or Northwest Chrysler just down the street as a matter of convience. I know that Ralph, mentioned else where in the thread, had St. Ann Dodge maintain his Charger that he drag raced so he saw them frequently.
I wanted to convey some stories about vehicles that I drove while at Chrysler. Many of them were "bank units" the company was having difficulty selling them to the dealers and put them in company service. Many times you would get a list with maybe 50-75 vehicles on it and and an email to pickone and call the vin # in. Usually first come so you have to know the option codes, colors etc to pick the one you wanted. Sometimes you got choice #2 or 3 depending on your draw .
Below are pictures of some of my prior company vehicles ( you'll note they all have the same license plate which was my assigned plate for the year).
Silver Daytona Truck - Copper was the preferred color with dealers so we had a batch of silver ones in sales bank . Note: many dealers who received them new or bought them used at the auction took off the wings but left the Daytona stripe on them (Probably a bunch in dealer attics or sold on ebay). Many customers didn't see the wing as pratical for a pickup truck
Blue Magnum SRT - My last company car. Also a bank unit picked off of a two page list. I really wanted a black one but that color was gone when it was my turn to pick. I got a black one on the second round but never got to drive it since it showed up a couple of days before I retired. Only got to drool over it. It was bad to the bone. Yes, they are a sub 5 second 0-60 vehicles with my best of 4.96 per the onboard computer. ( and the Magnums are the heaviest of the 3 SRT's)
Viper - This was a quality buyback for an engine casting problem. The engine had to be pulled and sent off to Detroit for repair, dynoed then reinstalled. Had to be test driven to confirm repairs. 2 weeks as a daily driver.
Black SRT Viper Truck. - This one got diverted from Dealer inventory back into corporate bank inventory . I remember one corporate meeting and there must have been 2 dozen of them in the parking lot. $52,000 pickup trucks that had window stickers of 9 city and 12 highway (I think) didn't sell in high volume especially when gas went out of site. Check ebay and you can buy one for $20,000 today. Most pumps would only allow $75 at a time and you had to swipe the card 2X's to fill them up with Premium. All of the 4 door viper trucks were automatics - 2 doors were viper manual trans.
My father took the black bumble bee stripe off of his sunfire yellow Charger 500 company car. He liked the flush grille and flush rear window and the 440 auto ( with air) but the stripe " drew too much attention " . Who ever got that car might be saying - but it was coded for a stripe!!
The moral to this story is sometimes unusual things happen to sell a vehicle.
Below are the vehicles discussed above.
Tom
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/10-15/01.JPG)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/10-15/02.JPG)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/10-15/03.JPG)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/10-15/04.JPG)
Quote from: Aero426 on October 15, 2012, 06:06:07 PM
Is there any tangible proof that the EXACT Daytona that parts were reportedly removed from is actually 390018?
The photos of this car pre-restoration do not seem to support the story.
Considering that 390018 was shipped to St. Ann Dodge, and I think Ralph W. remembered its color combination (that's what I thought was the case, anyway), AND the fact that Tony & Mike documented the car to have the parts-department grille screen, AND the "before" photos appear to show white paint on the side of the nosecone with different patina than its adjacent fender paint (both would have been prepped and painted at the same time with the same gun at Creative when originally installed) it seems most plausible to me that the car had a different nosecone installed fairly early in its life. I agree, the "before" photos of Tony's car show that the nose has been on there a long time - but that doesn't negate Mr. Wiedner's recollections IMHO.
Incidentally, I'm not throwing rocks at Tony's car with the statement about the grille screen. Personally, I see nothing wrong with having the honeycomb pattern grille screen if it's tied into the story of modifications made by the dealership... the same way my car's warranty replacement engine block is 10x more appropriate than a "date correct" block even if it were unstamped... I'd leave the grillescreen just the way it was at the 'Nats, and embrace the car's unique position in wingcar folklore. Right now, I'm not sure that another Daytona exists which was given the same treatment as Tony's was back then. :2thumbs:
:Twocents:
I am going to put aside the importance of which car it is or isn't for just a moment.
Until earlier today, I did not realize that the location of the dealer was in metro St Louis, not some back water location. Forget about who said what happened in 1970, or the accusation of calling someone a liar, because that isn't the deal here. I acknowledge there were some strange circumstances surrounding wing car sales. But I find it difficult to believe that in a market of over one MILLION people, that at the absolute height of the performance market, that a Dodge dealer around the corner from the zone office could not manage to find ONE sucker to unload a Daytona to, even at a blowout price. We're talking five hundred cars here nationally, not two thousand.
If you told me the car had been lot damaged, I could accept that.
If you told me the original owner requested the change, I could accept that.
If you tell me it was because you couldn't sell the car, I would say you need better sales people. :smilielol:
everything that doug just stated, along with this.
dealerships are in business for one simple reason; to make money. spending hundreds of dollars on parts and labor to undo a daytona would have cost the dealership more than simply discounting the car. the daytona package was a steal, priced not much higher than a standard charger r/t. offer the daytona for a few hundred dollars less than an r/t, and someone would bite. either scenario would lose money, but one is a hell of a lot easier to accomplish. produce a photograph or first-hand corrobation showing that the dealership took the hard way out.
the dealership that our daytona came from would have gladly swapped a charger r/t for a daytona. our car sat there for a week, until dad got back to indiana to pick it up. during that time, the dealership had potential buyers asking them to sell the car out from under dad, or at least locate another daytona for them. surely this car, just 300 miles away, would have came up on the radar. in my opinion, a good zone sales representative should have been "shopping" the car to his counterparts, to help the original dealer move it off their lot.
QuoteAND the "before" photos appear to show white paint on the side of the nosecone with different patina than its adjacent fender paint (both would have been prepped and painted at the same time with the same gun at Creative when originally installed) it seems most plausible to me that the car had a different nosecone installed fairly early in its life.
:scratchchin: :shruggy:
Nosecone matches the door, and neither one matches the quarter or the fender. ????
fender matches the lower valance, I can't tell what the hood matches
Bryan
:Twocents: This Daytona has the honeycomb grille material
As you can see here Gene, there seems to be a slight change with the perceptions that were originally expressed about this subject matter. As I told you on the phone (Tom saw this car too) when I went to look for a Challenger with my Son, the interior of the car he liked was completely ripped apart to "borrow" parts in order to sell another Challenger. This red vehicle had the passenger seat removed, the dash torn apart and the transmission shifter/console removed. It was a wiring mess! I'm not sure what parts they were swapping but I didn't want a brand new car that had been treated like a junkyard parts car. I guess it was put back together because it has been sold! Someone bought a vehicle that has been MAJORLY messed with and probably has no idea what it went through. The point is that things like this (though they might be few) STILL take place even today. I would almost guarantee that the "story" of this new Challenger will remain unknown and the reality its "ordeal" lost over time. I guess a few of us who know about this or have read about it here will be considered "hear sayers" if we repeat the story about the car in the year 2052. :lol:
Quote from: Aero426 on October 15, 2012, 05:28:00 PM
I don't think there has been anything controversial about Gene's car that would alter the thought process of how Daytonas in general were built or sold.
The point was not to suggest anything being "controversial" with Gene's Daytona. The point was that ANY of the information conveyed by Gene's in his thread could be considered "hearsay" according to the definition that was used to counter the "story" that Ralph Weidner told about the white Daytona. For the record, I believe everything Gene presented! I was simply pointing out the
selective hypocrisy that some have exhibited throughout this thread. I am very happy for Gene and the reunion that he was able to experience & enjoy a few weeks ago. He was even kind enough to sign a beautiful photo taken of his car that I am framing and showcasing in my office! :2thumbs:
au contraire, monsieur walden.
regardless of time or location, a prior owner's story is a first hand recollection. this does not guarantee the accuracy of anything, but it sets the bar at a level that is unobtainable by your expert witness. by his own words, mr. weidner's recollection is a retelling of information passed on to him, from someone else. as with first hand recollections, accuracy is not guaranteed. the opportunity for misinformation, however, is effectively doubled, as there are now two people telling the tale.
you are certainly not a stupid man, so to continually ignore the fallacy of your own argument has to be intentional.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj215/A383Wing/GIF%20Icons/offtopic250x250.jpg)
Quote from: held1823 on October 15, 2012, 10:25:38 PM
au contraire, monsieur walden.
regardless of time or location, a prior owner's story is a first hand recollection. this does not guarantee the accuracy of anything, but it sets the bar at a level that is unobtainable by your expert witness. by his own words, mr. weidner's recollection is a retelling of information passed on to him, from someone else. as with first hand recollections, accuracy is not guaranteed. the opportunity for misinformation, however, is effectively doubled, as there are now two people telling the tale.
You really can't be serious? Are you so narrow minded that you can't understand the analogy for what it is? Gene Lewis is in the same position as Ralph Weidner in the comparison! Wasn't Gene "retelling information" passed along to him on this forum? Gene passing along "stories" told by the original owners (where he was not personally present to confirm) is no different than Ralph passing along information told by those who said they took the parts off of the car that you guys claimed HE couldn't confirm. Did I really need to explain that?
Quote from: ECS on October 15, 2012, 10:48:09 PM
You really can't be serious? Are you so narrow minded that you can't understand the analogy for what it is? Gene Lewis is in the same position as Ralph Weidner in the comparison! Wasn't Gene "retelling information" passed along to him on this forum? Gene passing along "stories" told by the original owners (where he was not personally present to confirm) is no different than Ralph passing along information told by those who said they took the parts off the car that you guys claimed HE couldn't confirm. Did I really need to explain that?
The differences are the repeated posts that attempt to discredit the St Ann car by courteously (just as a public service...) passing along the story of, and I am paraphrasing here: "Hey boys and girls, I know a guy, who knows a guy, who knows another guy who took the parts off this car when it was new." But yet the photos of the car as found in a feral state, don't seem to reflect that this took place. It's not hard to see that the real intent of story time is to damage the reputation of 390018, even though there is no photographic proof or original paperwork to back the claim up. In my opinion, it is as our esteemed Vice President recently said, a bunch of "loose talk".
now i might have to disagree with doug. i don't think dave's primary concern is the car itself. he said so himself, in these very words
Who cares what parts were changed or replaced? It doesn't diminish the restoration or make this car any less of a "real" Daytona! It actually adds to the uniqueness of the car's past. So why lie and spin a bunch of garbage about its history?
as ghoste has already alluded to, this seems more like a personal axe being ground against the car's owner and/or restorer. the rest of the diatribe is just fuel for the fire.
i'm amused just enough to toss on a few logs.
Quote from: Aero426 on October 15, 2012, 11:48:13 PM
But yet the photos of the car as found in a feral state, don't seem to reflect that this took place. It's not hard to see that the real intent of story time is to damage the reputation of 390018, even though there is no photographic proof or original paperwork to back the claim up.
Wow! When you guys can't defend your logic, you switch subject matter in mid stream. Thats okay, I can substantiate the facts in any area you choose to run to.
You must have seen different pictures of the car than everyone else. The pre-restoration vehicle I have seen doesn't have a panel that hasn't been repainted, touched up or manipulated. Suddenly, a car that had three years of damage and repairs is being represented as the original that rolled off the assembly line! If the situation were reversed and I was trying to claim similar things about one of MY cars, you guys would be ridiculing me to high Heaven! You might also want to re-phrase your depiction of trying to "damage the reputation" of the car. What you should have stated is that the truth about the car is threatening to expose the lies that are being told about its past. Don't worry, I WILL have a video interviewing one of the Dealership guys who converted the car. Lets see your "spin" on the subject matter then. :2thumbs:
You are correct about the "original paperwork" however. I certainly was not provided with the "original" they claim to have had. I was given a hand written sheet to make the Build-sheets that they requested for the car. Lets see......they had the original, wanted 2 copies but submitted a hand written example for me to use as a format. I see no contradiction in that scenario....do you? :rofl:
QuoteYou really can't be serious? Are you so narrow minded that you can't understand the analogy for what it is? Gene Lewis is in the same position as Ralph Weidner in the comparison! Wasn't Gene "retelling information" passed along to him on this forum? Gene passing along "stories" told by the original owners (where he was not personally present to confirm) is no different than Ralph passing along information told by those who said they took the parts off of the car that you guys claimed HE couldn't confirm. Did I really need to explain that?
:scratchchin: I can see where you're coming from on this Dave, and yes, essentially Gene coming on here and relaying previous owners' stories is hearsay too. But, right or wrong, I think most people (at least me anyway) put more "faith" in the story of a person/persons who actually owned and drove a car for years than a mechanic, salesman, area rep, etc who may have spend a few hours with it 40+ years ago. And Gene seemed find evidence to support alot of what the original owners told him (such as glass he found inside the door that previous owner said was broken by the firemen, etc). And as of right now no one is disputing the history of Gene's car...
The white car, on the other hand is a different story. I don't know the car or owner personally (or you either :wave: ), but it seems there are 2 very different stories on the history of this car. And it also seems there is some bad blood between you and the owner and/or restorer of the car. I'm not ready to go "all in" on either side of the arguement yet, there is just not enough evidence to convince me one way or the other...I don't think this is a personal attack on you or Mr Wiedner, I think all most of us are asking for is "more"....
Quote
The white car, on the other hand is a different story. I don't know the car or owner personally (or you either :wave: ), but it seems there are 2 very different stories on the history of this car. And it also seems there is some bad blood between you and the owner and/or restorer of the car. I'm not ready to go "all in" on either side of the arguement yet, there is just not enough evidence to convince me one way or the other...I don't think this is a personal attack on you or Mr Wiedner, I think all most of us are asking for is "more"....
I think this statement pretty much sums it up for all of us following along at home!
Quote from: richRTSE on October 16, 2012, 08:19:35 AM
And as of right now no one is disputing the history of Gene's car...
Again, I agree with you 100%. Gene's car was not intended to be the focus of my comment. The only point I was trying to make is that "hearsay" seems to be defined (around here) by one's feelings about a particular subject matter or the person telling the story. When the analogy is the same but people react completely different towards the examples, they are contradicting their own positions and views.
I hope to get in touch with the person who did the conversion on the "winged" car later today. Stay tuned!
Quote from: djcarguy on October 17, 2012, 01:50:39 AM
INFO KEEPS CHANGEING AND ATTACKS ON ALL THAT DISAGREE WITH HIS PERSONAL AGENDA?
If you are referring to me, find ONE place where my story has changed. And regarding people getting "banned" for personal attacks, there would be no less than 7 people (including you now) who fall into that category.
........friends with or part of the shysters camp I presume? :2thumbs:
I live on west coast and have never met anyone of the owner ,restorer and defenly NOT YOU ,,ECS-DARRYL OR WHO EVER YOUR POSTING AS,AS OF THIS MOMENT?????? I LOVE MOPARS and have owned and enjoy driving and repairing them for 37 years. sure not on anyoneS team and dont give a damn about numbers and paper work.. the CAR title is all i care about and enjoying MY rideS .
Will spend more time and interest in cars that are driven and enjoyed.with personal mods and paint then any bone stock,factory TRailer QUEEN. have a nice day and chill out,THE WORLD AND GUYS HERE ARE NOT BAD GUYS OR OUT TO TEAM UP ON YOU.
THREE AWESOME DAYTONAS AT A SHOW AND THIS IS WHAT IT IS REDUCED TOO. MUCH LATTER,OR NEVER. DJ :angel: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: CANT WE BEE FRIENDS AND ALL GET ALONG :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :Twocents:
Quote from: djcarguy on October 17, 2012, 02:25:01 AM
I live on west coast and have never met anyone of the owner ,restorer and defenly NOT YOU ,,ECS-DARRYL OR WHO EVER YOUR POSTING AS,AS OF THIS MOMENT?????? I LOVE MOPARS and have owned and enjoy driving and repairing them for 37 years. sure not on anyoneS team and dont give a damn about numbers and paper work.. the CAR title is all i care about and enjoying MY rideS .
Will spend more time and interest in cars that are driven and enjoyed.with personal mods and paint then any bone stock,factory TRailer QUEEN. have a nice day and chill out,THE WORLD AND GUYS HERE ARE NOT BAD GUYS OR OUT TO TEAM UP ON YOU.
THREE AWESOME DAYTONAS AT A SHOW AND THIS IS WHAT IT IS REDUCED TOO. MUCH LATTER,OR NEVER. DJ :angel: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: CANT WE BEE FRIENDS AND ALL GET ALONG :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :Twocents:
West Coast here too. I drive the piss out of all my cars too. But I am also heavy into the paper work. Time slips and build sheets. :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: ECS on October 17, 2012, 10:44:00 AM
That variation (supposedly) came out as a service replacement sometime around 1972.
As I am sure you also know, the material was used on Superbirds constructed in late 1969.
I am not suggesting it was installed new on the Daytona. But it is a vulnerable part and could have been changed at any point in time.
i'd like to see if i'm up to speed on the original topic, that being that daytona #390018 was sold new, without its aero parts, by st. anne dodge.
if i am correct, the evidence presented thus far is as follows:
1. a zone rep's secondhand accounting of the parts being removed. this has not been shown to be right or wrong, at this time.
2. photographs show this car will all of its parts intact. it has been noted by some that the nose cone patina does not match the rest of the car, and that white paint is seen on the fender to nose seal. to them, this "proves" that the cone was painted at a different time than the rest of the car. this is the part of the "proof" for those people that the car was indeed stripped of its parts when new.
to others, especially those aware of the massive amount of paint issues found on these cars when new, it does not seem uncommon for mismatched paint to be found on any daytona. at least one car was completely repainted under warranty, for this very reason. for all anyone knows, the nose cone on 390018 could have been spray painted by anyone, and at any time, which could explain the patina concern and the paint seen on the seal. to these people, this is not proof that the car was sold new with those parts removed.
3. buildsheet font spacing has sidetracked the thread. this discourse was offered to "prove" that the current owner of the car is misrepresenting it. it should be noted that buildsheets for other daytonas have been presented, which show the same "incorrect" spacing as seen on 390018. regardless of the outcome here, this has absolutely nothing to do with the car when it was sold over forty years ago.
4. the grille screen on 390018 is a type not normally found on daytonas. this has also been suggested as "proof" that the car did have its parts removed prior to being sold new. whether this screen material was first available in 1969 or 1972 will not establish the removal of the parts from the car. the screen itself is easily damaged, and could have been replaced at any time.
if i am missing anything, please bring me up to speed, as we await the proverbial smoking gun that will prove that the car sold new, without the aero parts installed.
i was going to ask the same thing about the screen. if it had been damaged wouldnt it be replaced with whatever was available? :shruggy:
Quoteif i am missing anything, please bring me up to speed, as we await the proverbial smoking gun that will prove that the car sold new, without the aero parts installed.
Thats is a pretty good summary Ernie. If I'm not mistaken, the honeycomb grille has been claimed to be original equipment on this car...please someone correct me if I'm wrong about that? To me it wouldn't make sense to put a part like that on an OE GOLD-level restoration unless that is the claim... :shruggy:
Quote from: nvrbdn on October 17, 2012, 11:45:16 AM
i was going to ask the same thing about the screen. if it had been damaged wouldnt it be replaced with whatever was available? :shruggy:
yup I'll even go the other way when i got my Superbird nose cone it had Daytona mesh in the grille .
I'm sure back then you would put what ever the dealer could get you in your grille if it got damaged . I'm surprised we havent seen pictures of chicken wire or what ever someone could find at the local hardware or farm and home store .
I ve seen a handfulls of original daytonas with the honeycomb screen material
HELLO ECS, I would like to sign up to meet and have lunch with your people. As i am retired,divorced with no young kids i can pack and head out on short notice.As i love mopars and the truth and never owned a real wing car or t\a-aar. And on west coast and have never met the people invalved with this daytona or you,i have no team or dog in this topic and will be swayed only by the TURTH.
Have owned and repaired my own rigs for 40 years now,iam 53. had over 100 cars and showed and won sence 1985 with my 67 Belvedere ragtop mild custom. but never been invalved on either side of the oem ,show or judge events.
Well i think i would be a indepenant ear and have only met 4 members from this site in person,all from out west . To save some cost for all expence trip. i can fly out and take AM-track back to make a few stop to see family.will cover my own rental car and meals. PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF THIS WILL WORK FOR YOU.SINCERELY A LONG TIME MOPAR FAN AND OWNER. THANKS FOR LISTENING. DAVID J,FROM OREGON-WEST COAST.
P.S. Full disclosure i was in Kansas,15 years ago with wife and kids to see her family. now divorced with only family in indana and nevada,wash and my native state of OREGON. LATTER DJ
Creative painted the noses etc. - usually (if not always) with lacquer....installed on the car. This can cause different shades etc. between the original factory painted areas vs. the Creative painted parts. Super original cars show paint on the nose seals in areas where the masking was done sloppily. Everything Creative did was fairly sloppy.
Over the counter NOS grilles were usually the incorrect mesh pattern.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on October 18, 2012, 09:46:12 AM
Creative painted the noses etc. - usually (if not always) with lacquer....installed on the car. This can cause different shades etc. between the original factory painted areas vs. the Creative painted parts. Super original cars show paint on the nose seals in areas where the masking was done sloppily. Everything Creative did was fairly sloppy.
Over the counter NOS grilles were usually the incorrect mesh pattern.
Jim, by mentioning Creative and painted on the car, you are speaking of Daytona noses, correct?
Sorry - Yes - Daytona's. :icon_smile_cool:
Jim, one more thing. On your Vitamin C Bird, are the wing adjustment bolts black oxide, or painted?
I've asked about the lacquer thing before, and been told a whole host of reasons why some believe that Creative did not use lacquer on Daytonas. Jim knows that I respect his opinion greatly, and I have surely not seen every car in its original state. Most of the original cars I have seen don't exhibit the same traits that lacquer would -- based on what I've been told about the properties of lacquer vs enamel paints.
Legal disclaimer: Your opinion and experience may vary :lol:
My Superbird, RM23U0A170221, was one of the slow sellers... finally selling in March of 1971, after having sat on the dealer's lot for 15 months. A former employee has told me stories about the car during the 15 month period that it sat unsold at the dealer, Broadway Chrysler – Plymouth in San Antonio, Texas. Basically, I was told that although it would not sell, it was stolen twice off the dealer's lot and each time recovered due to running out of fuel only a few miles away. I was also told that the dealership removed the wing to make the car more sellable, but when they finally found a buyer, he insisted that the wing be reinstalled. He went on to say that the dealership was unable to find the wing, it had apparently been thrown away or taken home by someone... so they ordered a new wing for the Superbird. He also said the Superbird had been displayed in the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show in early 1970.
I have found evidence to support some of the stories told me by the former employee, including a newspaper article mentioning a Superbird at the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show. For the last year I've been in touch again with the original owner of the Superbird, but have not gotten around to asking about the wing removal story. He did confirm that the car was purchased in early 1971, at a steep discount after having been advertised several times in local newspapers by the dealership. Based on his recollection, I researched newspaper archives and found a whole series of Superbird advertisements in all three San Antonio newspapers. The advertised price of $3600 was a steep discount from the list price of over $4800, but the original owner says he bought the car at an even lower price... and believes that he still has the original dealer paperwork buried somewhere in his archives. Below is proof the car sold new in March of 1971, and the first four Superbird ads starting on New Year's Eve and continuing into 1971...
Did you try the San Antonio Light Newspaper 1881-1993
1970
San Antonio's first international auto show, sponsored by The Light and the San Antonio Automobile Dealers Association, was lauded as an overwhelming success by participants Sunday night when the six-day show ended.
Quote from: xs29j8Bullitt on October 18, 2012, 12:01:03 PM
My Superbird, RM23U0A170221, was one of the slow sellers... finally selling in March of 1971, after having sat on the dealer's lot for 15 months. A former employee has told me stories about the car during the 15 month period that it sat unsold at the dealer, Broadway Chrysler – Plymouth in San Antonio, Texas. Basically, I was told that although it would not sell, it was stolen twice off the dealer's lot and each time recovered due to running out of fuel only a few miles away. I was also told that the dealership removed the wing to make the car more sellable, but when they finally found a buyer, he insisted that the wing be reinstalled. He went on to say that the dealership was unable to find the wing, it had apparently been thrown away or taken home by someone... so they ordered a new wing for the Superbird. He also said the Superbird had been displayed in the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show in early 1970.
I have found evidence to support some of the stories told me by the former employee, including a newspaper article mentioning a Superbird at the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show. For the last year I've been in touch again with the original owner of the Superbird, but have not gotten around to asking about the wing removal story. He did confirm that the car was purchased in early 1971, at a steep discount after having been advertised several times in local newspapers by the dealership. Based on his recollection, I researched newspaper archives and found a whole series of Superbird advertisements in all three San Antonio newspapers. The advertised price of $3600 was a steep discount from the list price of over $4800, but the original owner says he bought the car at an even lower price... and believes that he still has the original dealer paperwork buried somewhere in his archives. Below is proof the car sold new in March of 1971, and the first four Superbird ads starting on New Year's Eve and continuing into 1971...
Awesome stuff Allen!
:cheers:
Quote from: nascarxx29 on October 18, 2012, 12:10:12 PM
Did you try the San Antonio Light Newspaper 1881-1993
1970
San Antonio's first international auto show, sponsored by The Light and the San Antonio Automobile Dealers Association, was lauded as an overwhelming success by participants Sunday night when the six-day show ended.
Yes... The Superbird was mentioned in reference to a well known boxer of the time sitting in the car being displayed, but no pictures... :P
Ok the other yellow bird I recall from San antonio texas area was the old Price car.Being from that area might know about your car :Twocents:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,63970.0.html
Quote from: hemigeno on October 18, 2012, 12:20:26 PM
Quote from: xs29j8Bullitt on October 18, 2012, 12:01:03 PM
My Superbird, RM23U0A170221, was one of the slow sellers... finally selling in March of 1971, after having sat on the dealer's lot for 15 months. A former employee has told me stories about the car during the 15 month period that it sat unsold at the dealer, Broadway Chrysler – Plymouth in San Antonio, Texas. Basically, I was told that although it would not sell, it was stolen twice off the dealer's lot and each time recovered due to running out of fuel only a few miles away. I was also told that the dealership removed the wing to make the car more sellable, but when they finally found a buyer, he insisted that the wing be reinstalled. He went on to say that the dealership was unable to find the wing, it had apparently been thrown away or taken home by someone... so they ordered a new wing for the Superbird. He also said the Superbird had been displayed in the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show in early 1970.
I have found evidence to support some of the stories told me by the former employee, including a newspaper article mentioning a Superbird at the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show. For the last year I've been in touch again with the original owner of the Superbird, but have not gotten around to asking about the wing removal story. He did confirm that the car was purchased in early 1971, at a steep discount after having been advertised several times in local newspapers by the dealership. Based on his recollection, I researched newspaper archives and found a whole series of Superbird advertisements in all three San Antonio newspapers. The advertised price of $3600 was a steep discount from the list price of over $4800, but the original owner says he bought the car at an even lower price... and believes that he still has the original dealer paperwork buried somewhere in his archives. Below is proof the car sold new in March of 1971, and the first four Superbird ads starting on New Year's Eve and continuing into 1971...
Awesome stuff Allen!
:cheers:
Thanks Gene... I still hope to get more paperwork from the original owner... I need to call him again.
Quote from: Aero426 on October 18, 2012, 10:19:21 AM
Jim, one more thing. On your Vitamin C Bird, are the wing adjustment bolts black oxide, or painted?
Doug - I think they are painted - I'll check :2thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on October 18, 2012, 10:49:21 AM
I've asked about the lacquer thing before, and been told a whole host of reasons why some believe that Creative did not use lacquer on Daytonas. Jim knows that I respect his opinion greatly, and I have surely not seen every car in its original state. Most of the original cars I have seen don't exhibit the same traits that lacquer would -- based on what I've been told about the properties of lacquer vs enamel paints.
Legal disclaimer: Your opinion and experience may vary :lol:
I knew that was coming my friend......that's why I threw in the disclaimer, "usually (if not always) with lacquer". ;) I do have a couple of original paint tail wings that are definitely lacquer....but, on the other part of my post - the noses were definitely on and masked on some real good survivors I have seen. Did they do this all of the time? Who knows for sure! :)
Quote from: maxwellwedge on October 18, 2012, 12:43:59 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on October 18, 2012, 10:49:21 AM
I've asked about the lacquer thing before, and been told a whole host of reasons why some believe that Creative did not use lacquer on Daytonas. Jim knows that I respect his opinion greatly, and I have surely not seen every car in its original state. Most of the original cars I have seen don't exhibit the same traits that lacquer would -- based on what I've been told about the properties of lacquer vs enamel paints.
Legal disclaimer: Your opinion and experience may vary :lol:
I knew that was coming my friend......that's why I threw in the disclaimer, "usually (if not always) with lacquer". ;) I do have a couple of original paint tail wings that are definitely lacquer....but, on the other part of my post - the noses were definitely on and masked on some real good survivors I have seen. Did they do this all of the time? Who knows for sure! :)
Now wings, that's another story. I am far from a paint expert, but I had heard from others that wings were painted in lacquer. Whether that's the case or not, I'll leave for others to decide - and you'd be a good one to express an opinion with the observational results from your steeds.
Noses, fenders, etc. were most definitely on and masked as you've said. I should have been more specific with my earlier comments, as I wasn't thinking about wings. :slap:
:cheers:
I think I have some pics of some original snouts in lacquer somewhere.......I think Creative would of used spray bombs if they could! :lol:
Quote from: xs29j8Bullitt on October 18, 2012, 12:01:03 PM
I was also told that the dealership removed the wing to make the car more sellable, but when they finally found a buyer, he insisted that the wing be reinstalled. He went on to say that the dealership was unable to find the wing, it had apparently been thrown away or taken home by someone... so they ordered a new wing for the Superbird.
Keep in mind some the logic here was rhetorically challenged by another "member" who explained why this type of scenario would never have occurred. Why would the Dealership want the expense of welding up empty holes? Why would they spend the time & money to prime the repaired body panels? The repairs would then have to be painted and blended to match the surrounding body panels. Why do all this work when the logic just doesn't add up? :brickwall: :lol:
As for me, I DO believe the above scenario because these cars WERE NOT looked upon as the special high dollar cars that they are today. They didn't care if they looked good or were kept Factory Original. Tom Barcroft stated that even as recent as 2006, the Dealerships were still doing this type of conversion diss-assembly to the Dodge Daytona Trucks. Guess what? They didn't care about fixing the holes that were left in the panels. They didn't take the time to try and repair anything once they took the wings off of those Daytona Trucks! Some Customers didn't like the rear wing so they took it off and sold the car.
your second paragraph might well explain what could have occurred in the first one.
i didn't see any mention of the dealer filling in the holes, and then having to drill them back out. they might have stuck a few plugs in the holes, to first see how things went without the wing. if they did fill the holes in, what was the going rate on a quart of FY1 paint and a handful of bondo, circa 1970?
Quote from: ECS on October 18, 2012, 04:08:34 PM
Keep in mind some the logic here was rhetorically challenged by another "member" who explained why this type of scenario would never have occurred. Why would the Dealership want the expense of welding up empty holes? Why would they spend the time & money to prime the repaired body panels? The repairs would then have to be painted and blended to match the surrounding body panels. Why do all this work when the logic just doesn't add up? :brickwall: :lol:
As for me, I DO believe the above scenario because these cars WERE NOT looked upon as the special high dollar cars that they are today. They didn't care if they looked good or were kept Factory Original. Tom Barcroft stated that even as recent as 2006, the Dealerships were still doing this type of conversion diss-assembly to the Dodge Daytona Trucks. Guess what? They didn't care about fixing the holes that were left in the panels. They didn't take the time to try and repair anything once they took the wings off of those Daytona Trucks! Some Customers didn't like the rear wing so they took it off and sold the car.
The removal of the wing is the least costly way to modify the car. It is a scenario that is more plausible. The only documented Superbird like this I ever encountered was the car Tom Pridmore bought new in Florida. But that car was lot damaged and the wing removed until 1978 when Tom bought one and put it back on. He didn't know where to get one until then.
As to the trucks, well I understand dealers make changes. There is no comparison to removing the wing off a truck bed versus the complete reconfiguring of a wing car. It really is not a comparable situation. Also, how did the address the holes? Weld shut and refinish the bed sides, or fill them with a flush fastener, or cover with a bed rail? You have at least six hours repair and refinish time on a Superbird.
For an idea to how the cars were painted at Creative, look up those photos taken in the back lot of Creative and of the cars on the hauler. Good clues there!
Quote from: Aero426 on October 18, 2012, 04:31:28 PM
The removal of the wing is the least costly way to modify the car.
As a kid who stepped on all of his Tyco slot cars, I can tell you 'birds look ugly without the wing. I certainly wouldn't have bought one like that. :lol:
There are in the neighborhood of 37 years of DSAC and Winged Warrior newsletters. Having read most all of them, when they came out, I don't recall a theme of "Mine was one of the cars converted back to a regular car by the original dealer and I need help finding parts to get it back to how the factory built it" at all. I do remember the article on the Tom Pridmore car describing the loss of a wing.
I remember many themes similar to " The second owner had a accident, wrecked the nose and fenders on my "Lime Green" car and found a Road Runner Red car front clip and installed it in 1974, I know it was Red because one can see the original Red paint under the bolts". " I'm trying to collect parts, will trade Road Runner parts toward any Superbird parts, Please Help!".
I would think that if there was a vast dealer conversion scheme that groups of specific named cars would have surfaced over the last 4 decades.
There has been a tale of a conversion system, but not specific cars. There are plenty of wrecked, ruined, rusted cars; and owners looking for parts universally have cited a previous owners accident, girlfriend, or driving the car in the winter for all sorts of ills causing a specific conversion.
If dealer conversion was common, shouldn't the 2 clubs start a club chapter for dealer converted cars?
I recall seeing the club members lists of cars and owners. It was noted when owners transfered Hemi tags on to a Satellite convertable, or on to a GTX frame. Maybe I missed something about the converted cars and I'll be much smarter tomorrow.
It seems that the 2 clubs have been pretty visible for decades. Pre-internet the were ads in Hemmings and other magazines and books for the clubs. So I would think, and I know, that folks looking for missing parts were able to find the clubs.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on October 18, 2012, 12:36:46 PM
Quote from: Aero426 on October 18, 2012, 10:19:21 AM
Jim, one more thing. On your Vitamin C Bird, are the wing adjustment bolts black oxide, or painted?
Doug - I think they are painted - I'll check :2thumbs:
Yep - Mine are painted. :yesnod:
Very thin paint on the inner uprights and the bottom of the horizontal foil too.
Jim, your in box is full.
as to the original post about converted wing cars to regulars, i doubt that this happened often if at all, investing more money to convert a car over just to move it doesn't make sense when the car only cost 3500 to start with, the conversion would likely cost more than 500 to buy the parts, plus the labor, plus the paint just to move.
I know for a fact that the superbirds in particular were slow movers in the early 70s. As a 14 year old into cars visiting dealerships with my dad and uncle in Jacksonville FL in June of 1973, we came across a 440-6 pack superbird that the dealer had kept in the showroom on display, and had moved it out after 3 years and no interest/offers on the car. I tried to get my dad to pursue it, and the sales manager offered to sell it for 3000.00, brand new, with 15 miles on it. I believe it had a 4spd but honestly cannot remember for sure, i do know it was a 440 six pack version though. It was either yellow or orange. I would think if a dealer would actually hold on to a car intact for 3 years hoping it would sell, there wouldn't be many ways to convert one over cheap enough to make it possible.
Seen recently at a Portland Oregon swap meet.
:2thumbs: I'm surprised the rear window trim is still on it. ::)
Quote from: Lord Warlock on October 30, 2012, 10:58:27 PM
as to the original post about converted wing cars to regulars, i doubt that this happened often if at all, investing more money to convert a car over just to move it doesn't make sense when the car only cost 3500 to start with, the conversion would likely cost more than 500 to buy the parts, plus the labor, plus the paint just to move.
I know for a fact that the superbirds in particular were slow movers in the early 70s. As a 14 year old into cars visiting dealerships with my dad and uncle in Jacksonville FL in June of 1973, we came across a 440-6 pack superbird that the dealer had kept in the showroom on display, and had moved it out after 3 years and no interest/offers on the car. I tried to get my dad to pursue it, and the sales manager offered to sell it for 3000.00, brand new, with 15 miles on it. I believe it had a 4spd but honestly cannot remember for sure, i do know it was a 440 six pack version though. It was either yellow or orange. I would think if a dealer would actually hold on to a car intact for 3 years hoping it would sell, there wouldn't be many ways to convert one over cheap enough to make it possible.
I've been in the auto industry for 30 years (31 actually) - here are what dealers do to move slow cars.
1. Tape stripes to create a unique appearance (low cost) and then you mark the $50 tape stripe up to $500 so you can show a bigger discount. This would have been very UNLIKELY with a car as unique as the Daytona or Superbird.
2. Employee incentive. You commission the sales reps extra money if they can find someone to buy the damn thing. Rather than distress pricing, you just pay more commission. This is probably a VERY LIKELY scenario with a slow moving Wing Car
3. Dealer Demo: If you move an unsold unit into Dealer Demo status, you can depreciate the car (expense it) which means each month the value of the car is reduced. It's an "on paper" reduction in the value of the car. Back in 1969 or 1970, you would probably have depreciated about $100 or $200 a month at most. Now the problem with Dealer Demos is the accumulated miles. Most states require a "new" car to have less than 6,000 miles on it. So depending on who got assigned the demo, and how far they had to drive this would have impacted how long the vehicle stayed in demo status. Odds are you might be able to pull $1000-1500 dollars of value off a car if it was in Demo service for a year. I have been told that my car was a dealer demo prior to its sale. This is also a VERY LIKELY scenario with a slow moving Wing Car.
4. Discount. Obviously if you use the Dealer Demo strategy then discounting becomes easier to do since deprecation helps - but at some point you just decide to bite the bullet and dump the thing. Dealers would have been paying about $50 a month in finance charges (floor plan) so at some point - they start going "
I've got $600 in this heap (one year of floor plan) and it ain't getting any lookers at all! Man, I'll take a $1000 hit and re-invest $3,000 in something I can make some profit on!"
5. Alteration: Unbolting the wing - MIGHT be easy enough to do - but the first thing someone is going to say is "How come my trunk is full of water?" If you decided to do a full blown "anti-aero conversion" back to a RR - you are looking at $500 of parts and labor (if not more) on a car that is stinking the joint up. In investing another $500, you would ONLY do that if you believed it would give you $1000 of additional profit. AND THAT MAKES NO FINANCIAL SENSE AT ALL - because Road Runner's cost less than Superbirds. Think about it in terms of dollars.
The top selling Roadrunner /GTX might be $3,500 list and the dealer would have owned it at about $2,500. So you have a Superbird at $4.500 that you own at $3,500 and you just added $500 of conversion costs to now own it at $4,000. IF YOU SOLD IT AT FULL STICKER for a Road Runner - you LOSE $500. Odds are - you're INSTEAD selling it at the $3500 you got in it without adding any more. In other words, you got NEGATIVE RETURN ON INVESTMENT if you added $500 to a car that already costs more than what you are trying to turn it into (a RR).
6. BIG Discount. I know I listed this before - but when you look at the BAD financial decision of spending money to convert a car into a LOWER PRICED CAR, then you realize how stupid the idea is. Just keep discounting until you find a buyer looking for a deal. "
Hey man, I can sell you this TOP LINE Road Runner Superbird for the same price as a fully loaded RR - $3,500 - how about it? You get all the regular RR stuff plus the race trim nose and wing are basically freebies. It's the last one on the lot and we need to move it - so whadda ya say?"
"
$3,300???? SOLD!"
In summary....
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ANY DAYTONA'S OR SUPERBIRD'S WERE EVERY CONVERTED BACK TO CHARGERS OR ROAD RUNNERS UNLESS THEY WERE WRECKED IN TRANSIT OR ON THE LOT. At that point, the cost to repair one back to a charger or road runner MIGHT have been less than keeping them in a wing car state.
I've consulted with over 600 dealers in my career - none of them like spending more money to sell something. It makes NO FINANCIAL SENSE AT ALL.
4.
Quote from: rainbow4jd on April 01, 2016, 04:04:07 PM
Quote from: Lord Warlock on October 30, 2012, 10:58:27 PM
as to the original post about converted wing cars to regulars, i doubt that this happened often if at all, investing more money to convert a car over just to move it doesn't make sense when the car only cost 3500 to start with, the conversion would likely cost more than 500 to buy the parts, plus the labor, plus the paint just to move.
I know for a fact that the superbirds in particular were slow movers in the early 70s. As a 14 year old into cars visiting dealerships with my dad and uncle in Jacksonville FL in June of 1973, we came across a 440-6 pack superbird that the dealer had kept in the showroom on display, and had moved it out after 3 years and no interest/offers on the car. I tried to get my dad to pursue it, and the sales manager offered to sell it for 3000.00, brand new, with 15 miles on it. I believe it had a 4spd but honestly cannot remember for sure, i do know it was a 440 six pack version though. It was either yellow or orange. I would think if a dealer would actually hold on to a car intact for 3 years hoping it would sell, there wouldn't be many ways to convert one over cheap enough to make it possible.
I've been in the auto industry for 30 years (31 actually) - here are what dealers do to move slow cars.
1. Tape stripes to create a unique appearance (low cost) and then you mark the $50 tape stripe up to $500 so you can show a bigger discount. This would have been very UNLIKELY with a car as unique as the Daytona or Superbird.
2. Employee incentive. You commission the sales reps extra money if they can find someone to buy the damn thing. Rather than distress pricing, you just pay more commission. This is probably a VERY LIKELY scenario with a slow moving Wing Car
3. Dealer Demo: If you move an unsold unit into Dealer Demo status, you can depreciate the car (expense it) which means each month the value of the car is reduced. It's an "on paper" reduction in the value of the car. Back in 1969 or 1970, you would probably have depreciated about $100 or $200 a month at most. Now the problem with Dealer Demos is the accumulated miles. Most states require a "new" car to have less than 6,000 miles on it. So depending on who got assigned the demo, and how far they had to drive this would have impacted how long the vehicle stayed in demo status. Odds are you might be able to pull $1000-1500 dollars of value off a car if it was in Demo service for a year. I have been told that my car was a dealer demo prior to its sale. This is also a VERY LIKELY scenario with a slow moving Wing Car.
4. Discount. Obviously if you use the Dealer Demo strategy then discounting becomes easier to do since deprecation helps - but at some point you just decide to bite the bullet and dump the thing. Dealers would have been paying about $50 a month in finance charges (floor plan) so at some point - they start going "I've got $600 in this heap (one year of floor plan) and it ain't getting any lookers at all! Man, I'll take a $1000 hit and re-invest $3,000 in something I can make some profit on!"
5. Alteration: Unbolting the wing - MIGHT be easy enough to do - but the first thing someone is going to say is "How come my trunk is full of water?" If you decided to do a full blown "anti-aero conversion" back to a RR - you are looking at $500 of parts and labor (if not more) on a car that is stinking the joint up. In investing another $500, you would ONLY do that if you believed it would give you $1000 of additional profit. AND THAT MAKES NO FINANCIAL SENSE AT ALL - because Road Runner's cost less than Superbirds. Think about it in terms of dollars.
The top selling Roadrunner /GTX might be $3,500 list and the dealer would have owned it at about $2,500. So you have a Superbird at $4.500 that you own at $3,500 and you just added $500 of conversion costs to now own it at $3,000. IF YOU SOLD IT AT FULL STICKER for a Road Runner - you make $500. Odds are - you're selling it at the $3000 you got in it. In other words, you got zero return on investment - you added $500 to a car to get NOTHING extra in return.
6. BIG Discount. I know I listed this before - but when you look at the BAD financial decision of spending money to convert a car into a LOWER PRICED CAR, then you realize how stupid the idea is. Just keep discounting until you find a buyer looking for a deal. "Hey man, I can sell you this TOP LINE Road Runner Superbird for the same price as a fully loaded RR - $3,500 - how about it? You get all the regular RR stuff plus the race trim nose and wing are basically freebies. It's the last one on the lot and we need to move it - so whadda ya say?"
"$3,300???? SOLD!"
In summary....
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ANY DAYTONA'S OR SUPERBIRD'S WERE EVERY CONVERTED BACK TO CHARGERS OR ROAD RUNNERS UNLESS THEY WERE WRECKED IN TRANSIT OR ON THE LOT. At that point, the cost to repair one back to a charger or road runner MIGHT have been less than keeping them in a wing car state.
I've consulted with over 600 dealers in my career - none of them like spending more money to sell something. It makes NO FINANCIAL SENSE AT ALL.
4.
Well said!
I think another thing that is lost is that there are 2015 Model Year cars for sale that are also brand new at various dealerships across North America right now, the whole Daytona/Superbird sitting on lots unwanted is blown way out of proportion...makes for a good story.
Dave
:iagree: it's just silly to think that a brand new car would be dismantled from the firewall forward :eek2: and then purchase all brand new sheet metal for a 70 RR fenders, hood, etc. including grill ,bumper and brackets other misc trim ,painting it paying your employees in the body shop etc. plus remove the wing and be left with holes to fix not to mention do you leave the rear window and the A pillar trim alone...?? :shruggy: doesn't make financial sense. Discount it and blow it off the lot! :2thumbs: :yesnod: