The other fender tag I saw for this car showed white body paint & D32 for an automatic.
Now it shows FJ5 paint & D21 for a four speed;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Plymouth-Road-Runner-SUPERBIRD/352429985694?hash=item520e76cf9e:g:9UEAAOSw0LBbcJI-&vxp=mtr
All that matters is the vin tag.
Quote from: 62 Max on August 13, 2018, 03:46:56 PM
All that matters is the vin tag.
That is actually funny.
If that were the case, the VIN tag by itself would be offered at the same price, no car included.
Heck, you could collect them & trade them like baseball cards. :lol:
Superbirds NEVER came with 4:10 Danas! :Twocents: WINGNUT
Interesting that the seller covers himself by making no representation as to the how the car was originally equipped, other than the engine.
Quote from: Aero426 on August 13, 2018, 05:27:32 PM
Interesting that the seller covers himself by making no representation as to the how the car was originally equipped, other than the engine.
With the fake tag, he offers fake representation by alleging it 'came this way'.
Whoever had the tag made caused this car to take a severe hit in value.
No one wants to buy a fake & now the car itself with have a scar on its history.
Sad the hobby has transformed into 'building' original cars instead of restoring them the way they were built. As far as I'm concerned, if an owner takes a known Superbird and transforms it into whatever engine, trans, color combo he/she wants, that's their prerogative. I don't agree with re-popping fender tags to try and suggest that's the way the car was originally equipped. Only ONE reason to do that...$$$$$! :Twocents:
Quote from: Alaskan_TA on August 13, 2018, 05:38:06 PM
Quote from: Aero426 on August 13, 2018, 05:27:32 PM
Interesting that the seller covers himself by making no representation as to the how the car was originally equipped, other than the engine.
With the fake tag, he offers fake representation by alleging it 'came this way'.
Whoever had the tag made caused this car to take a severe hit in value.
No one wants to buy a fake & now the car itself with have a scar on its history.
Registry entry #1
As a point of interest, here is the car in 1977 when it was in Wisconsin.
Quote from: Birdflu on August 13, 2018, 05:50:13 PM
Sad the hobby has transformed into 'building' original cars instead of restoring them the way they were built. As far as I'm concerned, if an owner takes a known Superbird and transforms it into whatever engine, trans, color combo he/she wants, that's their prerogative. I don't agree with re-popping fender tags to try and suggest that's the way the car was originally equipped. Only ONE reason to do that...$$$$$! :Twocents:
There's some that do it for the $$$$$, and you'll meet some that do it to reflect the changes they made in the vehicle because they feel it "completes" the vehicle, kinda like creating a HEMI car, but leaving the 383 emblems on... defeats the purpose
The color change on this bird, that's an individuals choice, White on a bird is nice, but the automatic, esp if it was a column needed to be tossed in favor of a 4spd no question about that, I think in this case the tag swap might have been a case of wanting all the "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed by the past/current owner to reflect the changes made, a Superbird is not a vehicle were a particular color is going to generate a phenomenal increase in coin at resale, a 4spd will offer a slight margin, but not much, wingcars are what they are... I don't think a color change/4spd swap and an adjusted fender tag are going to impact the sale of this car
Registry entry #2. Same state, but over 20 years later. Car has a few hundred more miles. Clearly called out as EW1 with D32.
Clearly a reproduction tag from the current auction listing.
Interesting stuff! Do you think the current owner or even one of the past owners still has the original fender tag? If so, would they disclose that to a potential buyer? Just curious...
Why didn't he just fake it into a Hemi car why he was at it. FM3 Panther pink to. LEON.
It's a chameleon. Went white-blue-white-green. :lol:
Quote from: Aero426 on August 13, 2018, 10:09:57 PM
Clearly a reproduction tag from the current auction listing.
Well, a reproduction tag would be an exact copy of the original.
This one contains lies stamped in metal, so it is a fake.
Quote from: Alaskan_TA on August 14, 2018, 06:10:47 AM
Quote from: Aero426 on August 13, 2018, 10:09:57 PM
Clearly a reproduction tag from the current auction listing.
Well, a reproduction tag would be an exact copy of the original.
This one contains lies stamped in metal, so it is a fake.
And how many new owners later will it take to be sworn as the real deal ??
Quote from: Aero426 on August 13, 2018, 10:09:57 PM
Clearly a reproduction tag from the current auction listing.
well at least they faked it to the Best color :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:
Over here (UK)....selling that without making it perfectly clear that the detail on the tag do NOT apply to that car from new would be a criminal and imprisonable offence....fraud. But up until you sell it you can do as you will!! Its like winding the speedo odometer back to show less miles....it only becomes an offence when you try to sell it without disclosing that fact.
Quote from: alfaitalia on August 14, 2018, 10:47:21 AM
Over here (UK)....selling that without making it perfectly clear that the detail on the tag do NOT apply to that car from new would be a criminal and imprisonable offence....fraud. But up until you sell it you can do as you will!! Its like winding the speedo odometer back to show less miles....it only becomes an offence when you try to sell it without disclosing that fact.
We don't like to use the F word here in America..
Fakers & Frauds do exist, that is a Fact.
It's a sad reality that has surrounded all of these cars as their values have increased... :rotz:
It is sad.
Faking fender tags & any other documentation lowers the monetary value of any car.
One fake item can bring the rest of the numbers into question - If one item was faked, was anything else faked?
It is a great way to make potential buyers run away, wallet intact.
:popcrn:
looks like the resto work has been done well from the pictures :yesnod:
:popcrn:
:popcrn:
Quote from: Alaskan_TA on August 14, 2018, 02:42:14 PM
It is sad.
Faking fender tags & any other documentation lowers the monetary value of any car.
One fake item can bring the rest of the numbers into question - If one item was faked, was anything else faked?
It is a great way to make potential buyers run away, wallet intact.
Not to mention that the seller has offered various Superbirds through the years. Calls into question his integrity.
Some people could have Integrity tap them on the shoulder & they would never recognize it for what it was. :'(
And this is why I don't have a fender tag made for my 70 charger r/t. I'll just deal with it and hope my fender tag comes back to my car.
How many Superbirds has the seller listed, and how were they equipped?
He's got others cars for sale, SS454 Chevelles that are really 307 Malibu's. I'm sure he'd sell you a Temptest or Lemans as a GTO. Scammer.
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 14, 2018, 06:41:25 PM
He's got others cars for sale, SS454 Chevelles that are really 307 Malibu's. I'm sure he'd sell you a Temptest or Lemans as a GTO. Scammer.
Uhhh, just devastating! has anyone contacted the League of Justice?, I know they're busy fighting real grease and grime, but surely someone can stop this nefarious villain, OR maybe you guys can form your own group of Super Zeroes that can rescue these horrific automotive tragedies by pooling your resour$e$, and return them back to their former glory of numbers matching, correct VIN/
/fender/data tags, broadcast sheets, paint daubs, column shifters, six cylinders, drum brakes, god awful drab factory colors, and anything else violated?....just a thought
Quote from: DAY CLONA on August 14, 2018, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 14, 2018, 06:41:25 PM
He's got others cars for sale, SS454 Chevelles that are really 307 Malibu's. I'm sure he'd sell you a Temptest or Lemans as a GTO. Scammer.
Uhhh, just devastating! has anyone contacted the League of Justice?, I know they're busy fighting real grease and grime, but surely someone can stop this nefarious villain, OR maybe you guys can form your own group of Super Zeroes that can rescue these horrific automotive tragedies by pooling your resour$e$, and return them back to their former glory of numbers matching, correct VIN/
/fender/data tags, broadcast sheets, paint daubs, column shifters, six cylinders, drum brakes, god awful drab factory colors, and anything else violated?....just a thought
I for one think fake fender tags should be a crime but your right, some one with more dollars than sense will buy this Superbird and never know that it has a fake fender tag. The folks here keeping track of them are doing the real enthusiasts a real favor. Since your so high and mighty about fakes being just as good as originals, I have a Mona Lisa over here that I painted yesterday I could sell you for a deal.
Quote from: wingcarenvy on August 14, 2018, 10:38:42 PM
Quote from: DAY CLONA on August 14, 2018, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 14, 2018, 06:41:25 PM
He's got others cars for sale, SS454 Chevelles that are really 307 Malibu's. I'm sure he'd sell you a Temptest or Lemans as a GTO. Scammer.
Uhhh, just devastating! has anyone contacted the League of Justice?, I know they're busy fighting real grease and grime, but surely someone can stop this nefarious villain, OR maybe you guys can form your own group of Super Zeroes that can rescue these horrific automotive tragedies by pooling your resour$e$, and return them back to their former glory of numbers matching, correct VIN/
/fender/data tags, broadcast sheets, paint daubs, column shifters, six cylinders, drum brakes, god awful drab factory colors, and anything else violated?....just a thought
I for one think fake fender tags should be a crime but your right, some one with more dollars than sense will buy this Superbird and never know that it has a fake fender tag. The folks here keeping track of them are doing the real enthusiasts a real favor. Since your so high and mighty about fakes being just as good as originals, I have a Mona Lisa over here that I painted yesterday I could sell you for a deal.
Speaking of "Mona's" (pun intended) sometimes so called "fakes" are better than the so called "real deal", these were painted in DiVinci's studio at the same time, which one's "real"?, were they painted by the same hand?, are they one and the same?
Much like the Superbird in disscusion, the "improved" version is so much better...
Quote from: DAY CLONA on August 14, 2018, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 14, 2018, 06:41:25 PM
He's got others cars for sale, SS454 Chevelles that are really 307 Malibu's. I'm sure he'd sell you a Temptest or Lemans as a GTO. Scammer.
Uhhh, just devastating! has anyone contacted the League of Justice?, I know they're busy fighting real grease and grime, but surely someone can stop this nefarious villain, OR maybe you guys can form your own group of Super Zeroes that can rescue these horrific automotive tragedies by pooling your resour$e$, and return them back to their former glory of numbers matching, correct VIN/
/fender/data tags, broadcast sheets, paint daubs, column shifters, six cylinders, drum brakes, god awful drab factory colors, and anything else violated?....just a thought
Lol......but entirely missing the point. Sure do what you want to your own cars.....and your clones are cool. My car could never be stock again as I have no records of how it was built and factory looking cars, cool as they are, are not for me. No ones saying he should put this back to stock...it's a far better colour than white imo and better for being a 4 speeder. But as soon as he (or anyone) trys to sell a fake or clone as something it's not then it's a very different thing. Anyone who thinks it ok to do otherwise has very low ethical standards and is clearly not someone to be trusted...which is why its illegal in most places. I'm amazed is not over there. I wonder how many on this forum have what they believe is a genuine Hemi car or Daytona but it's actually a fake due to people like this seller swapping vins and the like . I certainly don't have enough knowledge to be 100% sure like lots of you guys. In willing to bet that more than a few of you unknowingly have cars that are not the genuine thing that you think they are.
I will say this, he does state it never had an original Fender tag or any paper work, but he has data on the Repop fender tag that came from an original. Because it is the same data as some of the posted paper work when a more honest owner had the car. So regardless of how he states his add he is not being truthful in my opinion. As a dealer he has harmed his reputation, so buyer beware.
As far as color not making a difference in price, that is not true. They make a big difference in how fast a car sells and for the price. White cars seem to be the least desireable taking much longer and at much lower price. Even 6 pack 440 cars. Last one I watch when I was looking to buy. Took over a year to sell and was less than $169K. Not $225K.
Restomod and reproduction is becoming a new norm, like it or not. It is a shame that it isn't sold with its original tag though.
First off kudos to Barry for bringing this information to the public , and for Aero for providing historical docs showing original options.
Secondly, why are there no pre-resto or resto pics showing car get taken down to show original paint and options?
While I usually agree with Mike, I think he's off on this one. Making the changes to the car is one thing and not the end of the world. Once you start altering the factory documentation its a whole other level of wrong and as mentioned brings the sellers honesty into question. He may or may not know of the tag changes but if he's a dealer Im sure he does and will play dumb.
Quote from: FJ5WING on August 15, 2018, 10:32:58 AM
Making the changes to the car is one thing and not the end of the world. Once you start altering the factory documentation its a whole other level of wrong and as mentioned brings the sellers honesty into question.
:iagree:
Yet in his other auction for the 70 ss454 chevelle he clearly states whats been added and its a 100k price tag.
Hmmm
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Chevrolet-Chevelle-SUPER-SPORT/352429994916?hash=item520e76f3a4:g:RskAAOSwZVlXsQ2b (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Chevrolet-Chevelle-SUPER-SPORT/352429994916?hash=item520e76f3a4:g:RskAAOSwZVlXsQ2b)
SUPER NICE-BRAND NEW 1970 CHEVELLE CONVERTIBLE BUILT WITH SUPER SPORT LS6 OPTIONS WITH THE 454-450 H/P ENGINE,HAS THE TIME PERIOD CORRECT 4-BOLT MAIN 3963512 CASTING BLOCK WITH THE 291 CASTING SQUARE PORT HEADS,M21 MUNCIE FOUR SPEED TRANSMISSION AND 12 BOLT 3:31 POSI TRAC REAR,CAR IS SUPER STRAIT AND IN BRAND NEW CONDITION WITH LESS THAN 25 TEST MILES ON IT,JUST WENT THRU A COMPLETE FRAME OFF GROUND UP ROTISSORIE RESTORATION,EVERYTHING BRAND NEW,HAS POWER TOP,POWER DISC BRAKES AND POWER STEERING,TILT WHEEL,WILL LIST MORE DETAILED INFO BELOW,HAVE SEVERAL PICTURES I CAN EMAIL OF ANY CERTAIN AREA,
NOTE-PLEASE READ- JUST TO BE A LITTLE MORE CLEAR THE SUPER SPORT OPTION AND THE LS6 ENGINE OPTION WITH 4-SPEED 12 BOLT REAR HAS BEEN ADDED TO THIS CAR DURING RESTORATION.
The great bonus to the whole Mopar community when these types of threads are posted is that the people who think faking documentation is OK feel compelled to identify themselves.
God Bless America. :2thumbs:
Quote from: Redbird on August 14, 2018, 06:17:25 PM
How many Superbirds has the seller listed, and how were they equipped?
I remember this one a couple years ago. It seemed like a good price.
What some of you failed to notice is his descriptions on his cars have recently been revised after his ethics & morals were called into question. He was originally trying to play dumb until he got caught. He could have changed the 5th digit vin # to reflect a Hemi Car & have opening price at $500,000 & some people in here would think that is fine & all legit. :shruggy: :slap:
tan top captured the listing above.
The text HAS changed, I wonder why? :shruggy:
QuoteSUPER NICE-BRAND NEW 1970 PLYMOUTH SUPERBIRD WITH THE 440-375 H/P ENGINE,HEMI SPLINE FOUR SPEED TRANSMISSION AND DANA 60 4:10 POSI TRAC REAR,CAR IS SUPER STRAIT AND IN BRAND NEW CONDITION WITH LESS THAN 25 TEST MILES ON IT,JUST WENT THRU A COMPLETE FRAME OFF GROUND UP ROTISSORIE RESTORATION,EVERYTHING BRAND NEW,HAS POWER DISC BRAKES AND POWER STEERING,WILL LIST MORE DETAILED INFO BELOW,HAVE SEVERAL PICTURES I CAN EMAIL OF ANY CERTAIN AREA,
IMPORTANT INFO-PLEASE READ-
JUST TO BE A LITTLE MORE CLEAR ON THE HISTORY OF THIS CAR,
THERE IS NO BROADCAST SHEET,WINDOW STICKER OR ANY OTHER FACTORY ORIGINAL PAPER WORK FOR THIS CAR,THERE WAS NO ORIGINAL FENDER TAG WITH THE SECONDARY INSPECTION STAMP FOR THE CAR AND THE ONE SHOWN IN THE PICTURES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS A REPOP TAG FOR COSMETIC OR SHOW PURPOSE ONLY NOT INTENDED AS PROOF OF HOW THIS CAR WAS BORN AS FAR AS COLOR COMBINATION OR TRANSMISSION,
IN MY OPINION THERE IS NO WAY ANYBODY CAN SAY HOW THIS CAR WAS BORN WITHOUT ANY OF THE ABOVE MENTIONED ITEMS,I KNOW EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT IT AND FORMING THERE OPINION ON THE CHARGER FORUM BUT NONE OF THEM CAN PROVIDE ANY FACTORY ORIGINAL PAPERS TO PROVE THERE OPINIONS EITHER,SOME ARE SAYING THAT IT WAS A ALPINE WHITE CAR WHITE INTERIOR CONSOLE AUTOMATIC WHICH IF TRUE WOULD BE A VERY RARE CAR VERY FEW BUILT WHITE ON WHITE,
ANYHOW WITHOUT ANY ORIGINAL PAPER WORK FOR THE CAR I THOUGHT IT DIDNT REALLY MATTER WHAT COLOR IT IS NOW OR WHAT TRANSMISSION IT HAS IN IT ITS STILL A SUPERBIRD AND THE VIN IS IN THE NASCAR RACE PROGRAM SERIAL NUMBER LIST,
HOPE THIS HELPS AND CLEARS UP ANY CONFUSSION OR DOUBT AND TO VERIFY THAT MY INTENSIONS WAS NOT TO MIS LEAD ANYONE OR TRYING TO UP THE VALUE OF THE CAR.
MORE DETAILS AND SPECS-
NUMBERS MATCHING ENGINE
NEW GOODYEAR REPRODUCTION POLYGLASS TIRES
TAC,CLOCK,SPEEDO AND ALL GAUGES NEW.OEM BRAND
BUCKET SEAT/FOUR SPEED WITH CONSOLE
COMPLETE NEW WIRING HARNESS FRONT TO BACK WITH ALL NEW SWITCHES-THRU OUT
HEAT BOX REBUILT WITH NEW FAN MOTOR,HEATER CORE AND SEALS
VAPOR BARRIOR BEHIND DOOR PANELS
NEW FUEL LINES,TANK,STRAPS AND NEW SENDING UNIT
COMPLETE NEW ORIGINAL STYLE GARDNER EXHAUST SYSTEM WITH ORIGINAL STYLE CLAMPS,HANGERS,PIPES,MUFFLERS AND TIPS
ALL NEW FRONT SUSPENSION INCLUDING BALL JOINTS
ALL POWER STEERING COMPONENTS ARE NEW OR REBUILT
COMPLETLY NEW OR REBUILT POWER DISC/DRUM BRAKE SYSTEM WITH CORRECT VALVES
TRUNK COMPLETE WITH SPARE TIRE AND BOTH JACK ASSEMBLIES PRESENT
SEATS COMPLETLY RESTORED WITH NEW FOAM,PADDING,BURLAP AND LEGONDARY COVERS
WIPER MOTOR PROFESSIONALY RESTORED
-WILL ADD MORE INFO LATER- - - EVERYTHING IS BRAND NEW OR RESTORED-
ALSO HAVE A 69 1/2 A12 SUPER BEE AND A 70 CHEVELLE 454 4-SPEED AVAILABLE FOR SALE.
ALSO CHECK OUT MY OTHER AUCTIONS,HAVE SEVERAL OTHER MOPARS AND BOWTIES AVAILABLE FOR SALE AND COMING SOON TO EBAY INCLUDING ROTTISSORIE RESTORED CARS AND LIKE WITH ALL OF THESE OLD CARS THIS CAR IS BEING SOLD AS IS WHERE IS WITH NO WARRANTY OR GAURANTEES OF ANY KIND WHAT SO EVER,FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ANY QUESTIONS OR CALL HANK AT 843-455-3264 MONDAY THRU SATURDAY,AND LIKE ALWAYS I TRY TO SALE ONLY TOP QUALITY CARS AND HAVE DESCRIBED THE CARS DESCRIPTION TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE,CAR IS AVAILABLE FOR INSPECTION ANYTIME BEFORE END OF AUCTION,SERIOUS BIDDERS AND BUYERS ONLY PLEASE,FULL PAYMENT OF DEPOSIT DUE WITHIN 3 DAYS OF END OF AUCTION,WILL LISTEN TO ALL OFFERS,ALSO IF YOU ARE NEW TO EBAY OR HAVE A ZERO OR NEGITIVE FEEDBACK PLEASE CALL BEFORE BIDDING OR BUYING,
SORRY NO TRADES AT THIS TIME,THANKS HANK,
Odd that the fake tag could be the same as the EW1 / D32 tag EXCEPT for two details since
QuoteTHERE WAS NO ORIGINAL FENDER TAG
?
Interesting read...it is what it is.
Just curious, how in the heck does somebody come up with what appears to be the correct vehicle order number out of thin air when the original tag doesn't exist? :popcrn:
" The text HAS changed, I wonder why? "
I just told you why in my post above :shruggy:
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 15, 2018, 09:18:49 PM
" The text HAS changed, I wonder why? "
I just told you why in my post above :shruggy:
I think he was being sarcastic. :brickwall:
THERE IS NO BROADCAST SHEET,WINDOW STICKER OR ANY OTHER FACTORY ORIGINAL PAPER WORK FOR THIS CAR,THERE WAS NO ORIGINAL FENDER TAG WITH THE SECONDARY INSPECTION STAMP FOR THE CAR AND THE ONE SHOWN IN THE PICTURES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS A REPOP TAG FOR COSMETIC OR SHOW PURPOSE ONLY NOT INTENDED AS PROOF OF HOW THIS CAR WAS BORN AS FAR AS COLOR COMBINATION OR TRANSMISSION,
IN MY OPINION THERE IS NO WAY ANYBODY CAN SAY HOW THIS CAR WAS BORN WITHOUT ANY OF THE ABOVE MENTIONED ITEMS,I KNOW EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT IT AND FORMING THERE OPINION ON THE CHARGER FORUM BUT NONE OF THEM CAN PROVIDE ANY FACTORY ORIGINAL PAPERS TO PROVE THERE OPINIONS EITHER,SOME ARE SAYING THAT IT WAS A ALPINE WHITE CAR WHITE INTERIOR CONSOLE AUTOMATIC WHICH IF TRUE WOULD BE A VERY RARE CAR VERY FEW BUILT WHITE ON WHITE,
ANYHOW WITHOUT ANY ORIGINAL PAPER WORK FOR THE CAR I THOUGHT IT DIDNT REALLY MATTER WHAT COLOR IT IS NOW OR WHAT TRANSMISSION IT HAS IN IT ITS STILL A SUPERBIRD AND THE VIN IS IN THE NASCAR RACE PROGRAM SERIAL NUMBER LIST,
HOPE THIS HELPS AND CLEARS UP ANY CONFUSSION OR DOUBT AND TO VERIFY THAT MY INTENSIONS WAS NOT TO MIS LEAD ANYONE OR TRYING TO UP THE VALUE OF THE CAR.
So now is the listing saying that it could have originally been a Black Bucket, or Bench, interior; Black steering wheel; no pedal dress up; no tach; with 14" Magnum 500's & 70 series tires; and of undetermined original exterior color too? I tried to read the listing, maybe I just don't understand?
Quote from: alfaitalia on August 15, 2018, 02:07:32 AM
But as soon as he (or anyone) trys to sell a fake or clone as something it's not then it's a very different thing. Anyone who thinks it ok to do otherwise has very low ethical standards and is clearly not someone to be trusted...which is why its illegal in most places.
X2
:popcrn:
If he wasnt called out it would have been passed off as a fake. Ok so now he has admitted it, that is all fine and dandy.
Fast forward 15 years and 2 owners down the road and it will be passed off again as the real deal. Thats the problem.
Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on August 16, 2018, 08:22:06 AM
Fast forward 15 years and 2 owners down the road and it will be passed off again as the real deal. Thats the problem.
You just nailed it.
Now the listing has disappeared!!!!!
Looks like it was a successful attempt to keep things on the up and up as far as the DC.Com community is concerned. I will wait around to see if someone that hasn't been around and has a pocket full of cash and a dream of owning a special classic car jumps on that car, then goes searching for a web site that supports these wonderful cars and ends up here smiling from ear to ear excited to show off his perfectly restored Superbird.
It's sad that the perception of a car can be so drastically affected by a re-popped inaccurate fender tag. In defense of the car...she looks wonderful AND is still a real Superbird! I'm certain it would have been better accepted if it either had it's original EW1 fender tag or NO fender tag at all!
Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on August 16, 2018, 08:22:06 AM
If he wasnt called out it would have been passed off as a fake. Ok so now he has admitted it thats all fine and dandy.
Fast forward 15 years and 2 owners down the road and it will be passed off again as the real deal. Thats the problem.
Exactly. I have a client looking for a Superbird. She would pay more for limelight four speed over a white column auto. That is the definition of fraud, anyway you look at it.
I assume someone directed him to the thread? or was the conscience that bad, he found it on his own by looking lol :slap:
Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on August 16, 2018, 02:11:43 PM
I assume someone directed him to the thread? or was the conscience that bad, he found it on his own by looking lol :slap:
Someone may have used "ask seller a question". Or he may lurk or even be a member here.
It would not surprise me if someday, this car may show up with one of those fake Ebay build sheets from seller "vin-number aged". Provenance priced from only $289.00 :2thumbs:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MOPAR-BROADCAST-SHEET-1969-1970-71-72-73-74-Charger-Challenger-Cuda-Road-Runner/153117850093?hash=item23a688f9ed:g:8VAAAOSwr0ZXNoYF (https://www.ebay.com/itm/MOPAR-BROADCAST-SHEET-1969-1970-71-72-73-74-Charger-Challenger-Cuda-Road-Runner/153117850093?hash=item23a688f9ed:g:8VAAAOSwr0ZXNoYF)
Doug provided proof of what the car was back in the day.....seller of the car must have seen that but does not acknowledge the pictures or the DSAC registry form......I bet he's backpedaling and will be stuck with that 'Bird for a while now, unless he can find some unsuspecting person to con the car off to him
It's baaack!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Plymouth-Road-Runner-SUPERBIRD/352436275348?hash=item520ed6c894:g:WLEAAOSwEFFbebhx&vxp=mtr
I like the fact that the seller has acknowledged the supporting documents that Doug has brought forward. :2thumbs:
I'm not buying his new story. wonder why he didn't picture the original fender tag they had all along? :scratchchin: :shruggy:
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 19, 2018, 10:37:25 PM
... wonder why he didn't picture the original fender tag they had all along? :scratchchin: :shruggy:
:iagree:
Well, here in Texas when we're walking through the pasture and we see a rattle snake or cow pie, we do the "Texas two step" and avoid getting bit or stink on your boots. Any way. Looks like the internet may have informed the public and an unsuspecting person won't pay the price.
Nice car, however, the fender tag screw head size is incorrect :rotz:
:2thumbs:
Quote from: Birdflu on August 19, 2018, 09:39:53 PM
It's baaack!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Plymouth-Road-Runner-SUPERBIRD/352436275348?hash=item520ed6c894:g:WLEAAOSwEFFbebhx&vxp=mtr
I like the fact that the seller has acknowledged the supporting documents that Doug has brought forward. :2thumbs:
:popcrn:
:cheers: at least the tag is out for every one to see. And hopefully that fake tag is cut up.
Quote from: steve817 on August 20, 2018, 09:44:05 PM
Nice car, however, the fender tag screw head size is incorrect :rotz:
Now were worrying about the size of a screw head !!! ::)
Quote from: 62 Max on August 21, 2018, 08:52:35 AM
Quote from: steve817 on August 20, 2018, 09:44:05 PM
Nice car, however, the fender tag screw head size is incorrect :rotz:
Now were worrying about the size of a screw head !!! ::)
LOL! My thought as well...
One failed ATTEMPT at a fake car sale(no sale even) has tarnished the guys reputation. Didn't even make $1 because of it.
Quote from: steve817 on August 20, 2018, 09:44:05 PM
Nice car, however, the fender tag screw head size is incorrect :rotz:
That's ok, the fender tag it's holding is incorrect as well... ;D
Now if they put back the original , that's a problem... :yesnod: :D
so opinions on WIW in it's current configuration?
I might be biased because I like the green colour but I do not think it would be worth any less ( or more ) painted this colour than the same car right back to factory tag specifications
Quote from: 70 sublime on August 21, 2018, 12:58:17 PM
I might be biased because I like the green colour but I do not think it would be worth any less ( or more ) painted this colour than the same car right back to factory tag specifications
I could see that. It will take a buyer agreeable to the color/transmission/rear end "upgrades" that wants a really pretty car versus a restored to the tag car. As the old saying goes, there is an ass for every seat.
Quote from: 70 sublime on August 21, 2018, 12:58:17 PM
I might be biased because I like the green colour but I do not think it would be worth any less ( or more ) painted this colour than the same car right back to factory tag specifications
The big dollar cars seem to always take a hit if not "correct". Fake tag aside, say this car had no tag on it. The seller said here is the real tag from when it white an auto. Id say value unaffected compared to it being white.
BUT most buyers with the $$ of these cars are purists.
The value would also depend on what it would take to put it back to a white automatic & whether or not the original 727 & other pre-conversion parts come with it.
Most high dollar buyers want OE, not custom versions which can be a hard sell.
Quote from: 70 sublime on August 21, 2018, 12:58:17 PM
I might be biased because I like the green colour but I do not think it would be worth any less ( or more ) painted this colour than the same car right back to factory tag specifications
Agreed, I said this earlier, being a wingcar, the 4 spd and color change are not big deal/price killers here, regardless of the 4spd and color change it is not correctly "restored" to an OEM appearance anyway.... for the so-called "purist buyer"
Personally IMHO the car was taken in the right direction with the 4spd/color change/axle upgrade, just needs a 6 bbl to finish it off properly....
Buy it then.
Some people say ain't worth any less with the changes, Then why'd he automatically relist it with over $25k cheaper after getting caught trying to pull a scam?
From what little I know about fender tags:
I thought the 115 number designated a 440-4BBL Auto engine, and the 052 is for a 8.75 3:55 Rear Axle housing. These seem to be on both the White and Green Tags. I also thought the D32 was for an Auto Transmission, this seems to be on the White Tag. If these are true it would seem to suggest not being a 4-spd car.
It seems Doug's paperwork from 1977 says it had a Auto on the Council (Sic Console) which would match the C16 , if I recall right, on both the White and the Green Tags.
Spray painting the inside floor pan with a thick new color makes looking for clues on the original build as per Buckets, Console, and Transmission very hard to document.
I'd like to see a picture of the inside floor pan before the repaint. I don't recall seeing inside floor pans repainted in the 70's or 80's (or even 90's) FWIW.
It was already mentioned that the two things changed from the old tag to the the new tag were the transmission & paint codes. ;)
I understand my opinions are my opinions only, and my opinions don't set the market for anyone but me.
I have never understood why Ferraris can have a color change and it does not seem to affect the price much. Or why Lamborghini Miuras in Orange or Green get a price bump, but other Lamborghinis don't seem to get color bumps.
I would not pay more or less for a Superbird being one color as opposed to another. But a lot of people do.
I see a base Superbird as being a Black Bench seat, auto on the column, AM radio, PDB, PS, 3 spd wipers, no tach, non-remote Driver's mirror, 14" Magnum 500's and 70 Series tires (I realize everyone puts 15" Ralley's on them); with a White, Yellow, or Red exterior. Engine as per the dash pad. I'll take that as a given, for a base car. Anything else I want to see evidence.
White Bucket Interior is my favorite and most valuable option by far, except for the engine.
It looks to me that both tags have the 115 code for the 440-4BBL Auto engine, and the 052 for the 8.75 3:55 axle.
I don't think the 8.75 3:55 axle could be had on a Superbird with a 4-spd.
Looks like your trying to figure out what's going on with this car. I thought we already did that. :scratchchin: :shruggy:
That is an interesting read. Thanks to everyone who brought this one to light and saved the auctions as they changed. I always find it amusing that the guys who change stuff to make it the way they want it always seem to want to sell it right after completion with little to none of the original history attached to the car....just some story.
Another positive is that if the white fender tag is indeed the original it will now stay with the car instead of being lost forever.
Dave
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