DodgeCharger.com Forum

Hey guys,
I finally made the decision to convert my automatic to a manual transmission. I've had this car since March 2000 and up until a couple of years ago, was happy leaving it as an automatic. I enjoy road trips though and as many of you know, having the traditional 3 speed automatic meant some sort of compromise. You either gear the axle for freeway driving and lose low speed acceleration or gear it deep for quick starts and then deal with 3500 rpms at 65 mph. Some just go with a 3.23 and have a car that is okay at all conditions.
Overdrives are one innovation that made modern cars more comfortable.  The car can be geared low enough for low speed grunt but then at freeway speeds, it can cruise at a lower rpm. The difference between 70 mph at 1800 rpms and 3000 rpms is more than just engine speed. Exhaust noise, fan noise, vibrations....they all step way down as the rpms decrease.
I had a Gear Vendors in the car for a couple of years but I pulled it out and sold it in 2014. I figured that someday, I'd come back to some type of overdrive automatic. I considered the 518 but the modifications to make one work seemed dicey. I'd still be stuck with that 2.45 1st gear too.
The Silver Sport Transmission A41 4 speed automatic was considered. It is a GM based transmission with a 3.06 first, a 1.62 2nd, 1.0 3rd and a .70 OD. The cost kept digging at me though. I am not really a cheap person, I just try to weigh my options to see if the money spent will ever be worth it to me. Looking at how little I drive the car, I couldn't justify the $6000 to just add ONE gear to an automatic transmission. My 727 works flawlessly. The gear ratio of 1st isn't so great but I wouldn't spend money to change it. To spend that kind of money, I wanted something that felt like a big change.
For the last few years, I have felt that the car is a little stale. By that, I mean that I needed to do something to reinvigorate my interest in the car. Some may recall about 5-6 years ago I posted about tearing the car apart to change the color to B5 blue. That is a DRASTIC change but I was seriously considering it. Money wasn't what stopped me, common sense did.
I bought another '70 Charger in Sept 2019. I have a thread on this forum about the build of that car...          http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,136013.0.html                           
My plan for that car includes B5 blue paint eventually. I am at an impasse with that car currently. The 383 is rebuilt and ready but I need all the transmission stuff to get the car running. The 727, converter, cooler and cooler lines, shift linkage, drive shaft and kickdown linkage.
Yeah....You probably know where I am going with this. The Tremec 5 speed swap will free up all the stuff to get "Jigsaw" running while giving "Ginger" the drastic change to get me excited about it again.

R T 8Z.jpg

This car is NOT a real R/T. It was built in December 1969 as an XP29 model, a Charger 500 with a 318, 904, 8 1/4 axle with 2.71 gears and 4 wheel 10" drum brakes.
Within my first three years, I swapped in a rebuilt 440, a used 727, 8 3/4 with 3.91 gears and front disc brakes. It was painted as you see here and has looked the same since then. I now have a 440/493 and a different 727 and 3.55 gears. I've made other small changes over the years but nothing huge.
I've only had 2 other 4 speed performance cars. One was a Duster with a 360 and an 833. The other was a slightly hopped up Camaro with a 350 and a Saginaw 4 speed. The Camaro was a really fun car. It cornered well, braked well and the 4 speed was a blast to use. The Duster....Well, I wish that I could say that it was a great car but I never really got the most out of it. I built the engine but used too much cam for the 8.2 compression, not enough axle gear and the transmission didn't shift or feel as good as the Saginaw in the Camaro.
I do enjoy a manual transmission though.
So, in December last year, I ordered the Tremec TKO600 transmission kit from Silver Sport Transmissions. I had a price quote in January 2019 for approx $6600 so I expected to see an increase in that time. SURPRISE! When I called last year, they were tooling up for some new Tremec transmission, the TKX or something. It has the same ratios as the TKO but in a smaller case for better fitment in some cars. It has internal mods to improve shifts over 6500 rpms too. I saw no need for either of those features and opted for the TKO.....which ended up lowering the price of the kit to $5978...SHIPPED!

C xx.jpg

DC 3AZ.jpg

SST 9.jpg 

So here we go....
This one has a 2.87 1st, a 1.89 2nd, a 1.28 3rd. 1.0 4th and a .64 5th/OD. The kit comes with a hydraulic clutch with all the lines and clutch master cylinder. Brake and clutch pedals and pads, steel flywheel, "advanced friction" clutch kit, bell housing, crossmember and mount, boots, drive shaft and.....The famous PISTOL GRIP shifter!


SST 13.jpg

SST 18.jpg

SST 16.jpg   

Before I do a project, I like to gather all the parts that I think I'll need so I can complete the job instead of having it sit unfinished while I wait for find stuff.
The Tremec kit was designed to put the shifter in the same location as the stock 4 speed. The cars with consoles used a different top plate for 4 speed versus automatic cars.
Going back to how I am trying to share parts with the Jigsaw car project.....
When I bought Jigsaw, the owner was in the process of clearing stuff out to sell the house and move from California to Alabama. When he left, he left behind some car parts that he said I could have. Among other things was a bare center console. It is bare...I mean no courtesy lights, no carpet trim, no top plates or anything. I would need all of that stuff for Jigsaw.
I made a deal with a member at FBBO and bought a set of well used Automatic trans console parts. The condition didn't matter because I had a change in mind.
Over this past year, I've looked at the woodgrain in my console and wondered why the designers chose it.

Yeah, there was some fascination in the 60s and 70s with fake wood but most Chargers only had woodgrain on the console top. Every other interior surface was either textured plastic or vinyl unless the car was an SE model. I started to think that the woodgrain seemed out of place. I decided to skip the woodgrain and instead cover the center with textured plastic to match the sides of the console. The chrome segments of the console top plates will get painted satin black. To get the paint to stick, I needed to sandblast the parts. I bought a Harbor Freight blast cabinet and screwed it together last week.

Word to the wise.....
The instructions included in these things SUCK. The pictures are as small as a postage stamp, the text isn't any help and the way the steps are outlined, its as if they were written for a person that has built these before. Just what you'd expect from Harbor Freight, right?
$189 though....a great price. I attached a vacuum to draw out the dust...

I bought some glass beads and some # 80 Garnet. The beads did work but not great. A guy advised me to start with the glass to see if they would be adequate. He was concerned about other types being too aggressive and damaging the metal. The Garnet worked a LOT better though. These pictures show how much duller the parts look after two passes with beads and one with Garnet. After these pictures were taken, I made another pass over all the parts. Paint may lay onto chrome but will scratch off. To get the paint to stay, I needed to take off the shine. I'll spray them with etching primer then paint and a matte clear.

The swap is not a simple job. There are a few steps that have to be done to get all the stuff in place and working properly.
I read a few threads, a few magazine articles, watched a few YouTube videos and read the instructions included in this kit. Everyone concurs that the first major step is to bolt on the flywheel and bell housing, then measure to see if the bell housing is in near perfect alignment with the center of the crankshaft. The bolts hold the bell housing in place but the dowels are responsible for the locating of the BH. It is the belief of many that the stock transmissions are far more tolerant of slight misalignment than the modern transmissions. The "runout" needs to be measured. The instructions allow the bell to be off center no more than .005 thousandths. Yeah, that is really tight!
To measure for runout, I needed to get a magnetic base dial indicator. I ordered one through Summit and it arrived today. If the measurements show a misalignment, the fix is to install offset dowels that will allow me to shift the bell housing in any direction that I need to get it within spec.
Before I rip into the project, I want to take another ride in the car, one last thrash with the automatic before the swap begins. I hope to have the 727 out by Sunday evening. Check back and see!

KD,

Thanks for posting.  This will be a lot of fun to see come into focus.  I have a tremec (older model kit, but with an SST shifter that I modified to my taste (changed centering springs and made a short shift handle).  Being an older kit, mine had some issues with driveline angles and vibrations.  You may not have any of that.  And I hope not.  If you do, I will be happy to share the ways that I addressed the problems.  I have a feeling that you are more of a mechanic than I am so you may not need what I have to say, but know that I'll be happy to pipe in and will be watching and learning (even if I don't post a lot on your project thread) as you update.

Thanks.
I have a buddy with a 69 Coronet R/T. It is an original track Pack car with a 3.54 Dana. He had a first generation Kiesler 5 speed. He went round and round trying to get the 2-3 shift to improve. He replaced the transmission with a TKO with the same ratios and loves it. The TKO comes in a wide ratio model with a 3.27 1st gear but I chose the closer ratio model like most others do.
DC.com member Derwud has a TKO in his '70. He posts in car videos of him driving around southern CA. He is quite happy with his.
I'm going to slip the 3.91s back in for some additional punch. In the .64 overdrive, it will be a final drive of 2.50, still quite good.
This new kit does require some floor cutting but no mods to the torsion bar crossmember. They have learned how to modify the case of the transmission to get it up higher in the tunnel to get a better driveline angle.
Along the way, I'm sure there will be a few detours where I see some unrelated thing that needs attention. This is a common occurrence with many projects. I may replace the carpet since this was one of the batches of carpet made in the early 2000s where they were often cut too narrow and short. After awhile, customers complained and nowadays, the carpet kits are about 3 inches longer and wider than needed. What I have now is narrow enough that the sill plates don't cover the edges entirely. Cheap carpet guys!

Congrats!     I converted Betty with a TKO back when it was Keisler.     I've been satisfied for the most part.  It made driving to Carlisle tolerable. 

I took out a 23 spline and gave it to friends to use on a project.   The car is a non numbers R/T that was original F8 440 / auto.   It was hacked up before I bought it....  just as well for me.

Frankly it's been so long seeing this stuff is like new again.    It was somewhere around $4K total...  but I have no idea where the receipts are.

I first tried running 3.54 gears and I wasn't happy cruising - in and out of 4th or 5th.    So I put in 3.73s -  much better.   I suspect the 3.91s you're planning will be similar.   

Thank you.
I looked at what final drives would be. The 3.55s I have now would be a 2.27 final drive. An engine with any sort of non stock cam is going to run poorly at freeway speeds around 1400-1700 rpms. Gas mileage would probably be no different than if the engine were revving around 2000 and I suspect the throttle response would be less than stellar.

Good luck with the swap.  I'm glad you didn't change the color.  I'm mostly indifferent to red, but I think your car is particularly beautiful that way. 
Also, what did you dislike about the gear vendors?  I am thinking of going that direction and keeping the 3.23's for a final 2.519 on the highway.  The torque from my 508 seems to be enough to mitigate the compromise you speak of, but I guess more gearing would still be nice.

The Gear Vendors unit I had was a first generation model.
It had no mount for the floor shifter so a bracket had to be made. It resulted in the vertical shift rod being out of whack and the shifter felt vague. The shift detents were messed up too. Either I was able to lock it in to Park but NOT get 1st or I could get 1st and it would slip out of Park.
The output of the GV was a yoke requiring a custom driveshaft like you'd see on the front of a 4wd truck. It was fine at low speeds but vibrated the faster I went.
It upshifted fine but would often stay stuck in OD and not disengage unless I shut the car off. This meant when I was at freeway speeds with the 3.91 OD and .78 OD, (Final drive of 3.05) When slowing to a stop, it stayed as a 3.05 gear making it sluggish from low speeds. If I wanted a 3.05 axle gear all the time, I would have just used a 2.94 diff.
The speedometer drive is at a strange angle. Looking from the rear, it is at a 10:30 angle...Pointing to the left and UP. This put the speedo cable in a constant bind since even with the floor dented for some clearance, it wasn't enough. 90 degree adapters are the fix but the tightwads at Gear Vendors refused to sell them, claiming they only produced them to be included with new units sold.
I have been told that the 2nd generation GV units addressed the shortcomings. Slip yoke output, shifter mount, improved electronics....Too late though. I wanted a more dramatic change for the car than just adding one gear. The .78 overdrive is an improvement but isn't that much when compared to the 518 at .69, the GM based 4L60E at .70 and the manual trans Tremec at .64.

Thanks for the input.  I'm sorry you experienced all that headache.  Man, things often seem to go that way whenever I try to do upgrades.  It's a pisser.

The new ones are probably just fine. If a man wants a 4th gear without spending $6000, it is a decent way to go and easily reversible.

             
I'm surprised the aftermarket doesn't offer a decent manual-type over/under drive anymore.  A lot of the complications with GV overdrives is coming from the 'automatic' design of the thing.  The guys with manual transmissions already have a clutch so they could make use of a manual-type auxiliary 2spd box on the back.   

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 08, 2021, 01:53:50 PM
Thank you.
I looked at what final drives would be. The 3.55s I have now would be a 2.27 final drive. An engine with any sort of non stock cam is going to run poorly at freeway speeds around 1400-1700 rpms. Gas mileage would probably be no different than if the engine were revving around 2000 and I suspect the throttle response would be less than stellar.

IIRC in 5th I'm running 2000ish @ 60.    80 is about 2400.   

I am running 4.30 with mine and I don't feel like I am pushing it at 70.  I did a calculation though and think it costs me at the drag strip because I think I am hitting my rev limiter in 4th with 27 in tires.  This is my mistake and inexperience.  I don't recall the RPM, but it works out nicely with my cam for 5th starting about 55 mph.  I can run a little lower, but it feels like it is lugging. I think the 3.91 ratio would work well, but I would check all the RPM and decide based on how you know your engine behaves.

You think you're hitting the rev limiter?  Easy enough to figure out for sure :)

I had the car out today for what may may be the last time with the automatic.
I have a 3,55 gear, 28" tire and a NON lockup converter.
2800 rpms @ 60
3000 rpms @ 65
3200 rpms @ 70

Keep up the good work!

  
IMO muscle car guys tend to be unrealistic about modern traffic.  On many interstates the normal cruising speed is 75-80 mph.  

I'll run my daily driver up to 80 sometimes on long trips. Most of the time I'm between 70 to 75.

lot of interesting stuff & good write up !
thats what i had originally planed for mine , converting it to a five speed manual ! but never going to happen now.
  like the idea of wood grain delete on the centre console !  never really liked the wood grain either ! thanks for sharing this stuff KD  :cheers:
:popcrn:

 :smilielol: I mostly run at 65 (and up 70) but not a lot more on the regular. Our traffic moves a little faster where I am.

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on January 09, 2021, 02:16:07 AM
 
IMO muscle car guys tend to be unrealistic about modern traffic.  On many interstates the normal cruising speed is 75-80 mph.  

So Mike is right about some of us older muscle car drivers.  

I just thought I would pass along the idea that the lower limit for a gear also can come into play.  For me, my engine lugs if I run it much below 2K so the comfortable speeds for 5th with the 0.64 Tremec gearing are 50-65 (70) with the 4.30.  If I had 3.91 it would be 55 and the same up to almost 80.  This would also be be nice and I have thought about the change.  If I went with 3.55 or 3.23, I would need to be in 4th on the 55 stretches that are around me so the engine didn't lug and then 5th would be fine once I got out of the city.  It would be fine in 4th, but I would need to remember that. If I lived in the middle US with higher limits, I would probably move to something like 3.55 or 3.91.  For me 4.30 seems fine.  None of this is an issue for an engine that doesn't lug.  The downside is I am out of 1st by 35 and out of second by 55-60 when on it.  

I mentioned the 4.30 vs 3.91 because KD mentioned gearing and I thought if that were in play and I were doing it, I would like to make the closest guess to my driving style and likely driving conditions for the engine I had.  He knows his engine and suspension.

A downside of the 4.30 is the driveshaft spins quickly and I had to spend a fair amount of time aligning the driveline angles and get a decent shop for the balance (an operation that works on large trucks) to get it right.  


INTMD8 - It should have been easy enough to figure out, even realize at the time.   :yesnod: But Mike DC just pointed that I'm an old unrealistic muscle car driver (not a racer).  I only happened to figure it out because I was thinking about it on the way to work and then did the calculation.  I kept wondering why my speed dropped, but then I realized I had set the limiter to be safe.  I'm not shifting to 5th and with my tire size, my speed looks like it matches pretty well where my limiter was set it.  I just need to make it back to verify.  

Nice write up and that kit seems fantastic & complete.   What are you doing about the pilot bushing in the crank though?   I considered doing a 4-speed swap at one point but was unsure about the crank in my 440...I do not think its drilled for the pilot bushing?

I have an aftermarket crank, a 4.15 stroke Eagle as part of a rotating assembly from Hensley Performance.

QuoteSo Mike is right about some of us older muscle car drivers.  

We have to be stuck in the past, we love 50yo cars!  

But seriously, I think the situation has changed just since overdrive gears became popular in the last 20 years.  In the 1990s you could go 65 and keep up with traffic in most places.  Now that requires at least 70 if not 75.  In open rural areas even soccer moms in minivans are hitting 80 mph.


It makes sense when you realize that the soccer mom's minivan outperforms our classics in almost every way.  Handling, aero, braking, crash safety, quiet interior noise . . . going 75-80 mph in a modern car feels more like 65 mph in old cars.  


I was flinging around a 2015-ish Toyota Camry rental on a windy road a few years ago.  Damn.  I would be proud to have a pro-touring classic car that good.  19" wheels, big brakes, surprisingly hot acceleration & crisp shifting, tight steering, good front/rear balance . . . and that was a friggin 4dr Toyota rental car.  We all know the modern Challenger Hellcats & Camaro Z28s will blow your face off, but even the mundane vehicles are really impressive now.  

 :cheers: mo gears is mo Bettas...that's why heavier modern cars have such good acceleration is short split between gears...all 8 of them

Great write-up Kern and I'm following this very closely since I will eventually head down the same road too. I was wondering if the auto console woodgrain bit could be cut and modified to suit the manual stick outlet?

Quote from: OzCharger69 on January 09, 2021, 02:30:01 PM
Great write-up Kern and I'm following this very closely since I will eventually head down the same road too. I was wondering if the auto console woodgrain bit could be cut and modified to suit the manual stick outlet?

A guy on the 1970ChargerRegistry site did this:

I plan to do the same with mine. I'd like to put a recess in the plate forward of the shifter opening, something big enough to put the cell phone in while charging. Also, the USB port/cable can connect with the stereo to play music or charge the phone.

Nice write up Greg.

Car is looking great! Gonna be a nice setup once installed.

Just curious, why did you remove the gear vendors? I have been debating getting one for a while so just want to hear what you disliked about it.

Thanks!

The Gear Vendors unit I had was a first generation model.
It had no mount for the floor shifter so a bracket had to be made. It resulted in the vertical shift rod being out of whack and the shifter felt vague. The shift detents were messed up too. Either I was able to lock it in to Park but NOT get 1st or I could get 1st and it would slip out of Park.
The output of the GV was a yoke requiring a custom driveshaft like you'd see on the front of a 4wd truck. It was fine at low speeds but vibrated the faster I went.
It upshifted fine but would often stay stuck in OD and not disengage unless I shut the car off. This meant when I was at freeway speeds with the 3.91 OD and .78 OD, (Final drive of 3.05) When slowing to a stop, it stayed as a 3.05 gear making it sluggish from low speeds. If I wanted a 3.05 axle gear all the time, I would have just used a 2.94 diff.
The speedometer drive is at a strange angle. Looking from the rear, it is at a 10:30 angle...Pointing to the left and UP. This put the speedo cable in a constant bind since even with the floor dented for some clearance, it wasn't enough. 90 degree adapters are the fix but the tightwads at Gear Vendors refused to sell them, claiming they only produced them to be included with new units sold.
I have been told that the 2nd generation GV units addressed the shortcomings.

I have such a hard time getting motivated in the Winter. It is the worst time of the year for me...I feel like hibernating until Spring.
I did get off of my ass today though.
Seats are out, console too.

Years ago, I made a few wiring changes to the car including a trunk mounted battery and an aftermarket instrument cluster. I used an oval plug in the firewall to pass the wires through. I never thought I'd need the hole since it was for the......Clutch pushrod!
Now I had to find another way through the firewall.

I looked and found a hole just below the bulkhead plug. It was used to mount the original heater and A/C box but since I changed to the Classic Auto Air system in 2019. This hole is right near the starter relay. That is a good thing since 2 of the wires attach to the relay anyway. The remaining wires were for the tach, water temp and oil pressure.
I hogged out the hole and used a 1 " body plug, then ran the wires through that.

Now the clutch pushrod hole is wide open and ready!

I only had a couple of hours to spare today but I did get a few things done.
I removed the external transmission cooler.

I have been trying to do things that require the car to be on the ground before I lift the car up to do all the stuff underneath. I figured that now would be a good time to swap the pedals.
The instructions were quite good here. The fresh air vent comes out since the clutch and brake pedal arrangement uses a longer mounting pin that cannot be installed with the vent in place.

The new reproduction pedals look great. The brake uses the traditional nylon bushings but the clutch uses a trick roller bearing...

The pedals fit in nicely. The manual setups use a longer pin to allow the clutch to ride on. To support the left side of the longer pin, the factory used a bracket like this reproduction.

The bracket bolts to the firewall. Automatic cars are not drilled for this but there are dimples in the metal where the holes need to be. This bracket fit nicely but I did have to take a round file to the hole to get the pin to slide through. I opened it up by about 1/8" , not a big deal.

The pedals are in place and the brake pedal pushrod is attached. I may install the clutch master cylinder and pushrod next, not sure.

Backing UP a little bit...
From about 2012 to around 2014, I tried a few things to improve the braking performance. The car has had 1975 Dart Power front discs since 2001 and I swapped in Dr Diff rear discs in 2006. In 2012, even though the brakes felt decent,  I wanted to shed some weight so I tried switching to a manual master cylinder. I tried 4 of them with bore sizes between 15/16: and 1 1/8" and they all were terrible. The best of the 4 was an aluminum Dr Diff 15/16" unit but even then, it barely would skid on a dirt road. I gave up and put the power stuff back on. Later I saw that I had a disc/drum proportioning valve in the system. 4 wheel drum and 4 wheel disc systems do not use proportioning valves.
I had the prop valve with the power booster in place though....Maybe the power assist masked the mistake enough?
Regardless....I changed to a drum/drum distribution block and braking improved. Awhile later I tried another thing. I took a stock brake pedal and drilled the pushrod mounting hole above the stock hole to gain some pedal leverage. This helped quite a bit. The brakes grabbed sooner and pedal effort went down a bit. It has been this way since around 2014 or so.
Now with these new pedals, the brake pushrod hole is back to the stock position. The pedal sits a little closer to the floor. I want to have the clutch and brake pedals rest at the same height. A slight mismatch is okay but the closer, the better. I don't know how much travel the clutch pedal needs to function. This is a hydraulic clutch arrangement and I have heard that they don't move very far. As stated, the brake pedal is closer to the floor than before. Hopefully the clutch pedal will have enough travel as is. If the clutch pedal has to sit higher, I'll need to lengthen the brake pedal pushrod to allow the pedal to sit higher.

Also....The instructions mention a clutch pedal pad, I'm guessing it refers to something that stops the pedal from moving away from the firewall too far. There wasn't anything like that in the kit. I can make something but it would be nice to know what a stock one looks like.

Looks like I need one of THESE:



https://www.classicindustries.com/product/1970/dodge/charger/parts/md2526.html

Nice work KD. :cheers: :cheers:

 :2thumbs:

Awesome thread, KD thanks for documenting this whole process so well. A manual swap of some kind is definitely in my future whether it's an OEM 4-speed or aftermarket 5+ speed my car will get three pedals at some point.

In regards to your brake issues, what pads are you running? I converted my car over to front power discs with the oem dart spindles, 11" rotors etc. and the brakes feel great to me. I'm using EBC red stuff pads which are fantastic for bite and feel. In fact I think the pads are a bit too aggressive and I actually warped the 11" rotors, I have a vibration under braking now that I need to dig into. 11-3/4" rotors are my next move but if you want more bite you might try some really aggressive pads if you haven't already.

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 12, 2021, 04:20:17 AM
Looks like I need one of THESE:



https://www.classicindustries.com/product/1970/dodge/charger/parts/md2526.html

I am sure you know, it fits up under the dash.  It leaves for a very long throw (pedal travel) on the clutch pedal.  I made mine a little thicker to shorten the throw.  From some comments I read, I am under the impression that the hydraulic clutches are shorter throw. 

I will be interested to see this as you set up and see what you think about the pedal travel.

The front calipers are stock for an Aspen/Volare and the Pads are some Rock Auto deal,  Carbon Metallic. The car stopped great before I dug into the swap. I just wonder if the reduction in leverage will have a measurable effect. The manual master cylinder looks so much simpler and cleaner though. I have driven manual disc A body cars that feel great too. I have a '67 Dart and a '72 Duster that stop quite well. They are disc/drum though.

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 12, 2021, 01:27:52 PM
The front calipers are stock for an Aspen/Volare and the Pads are some Rock Auto deal,  Carbon Metallic. The car stopped great before I dug into the swap. I just wonder if the reduction in leverage will have a measurable effect. The manual master cylinder looks so much simpler and cleaner though. I have driven manual disc A body cars that feel great too. I have a '67 Dart and a '72 Duster that stop quite well. They are disc/drum though.

I have manual 11.3/4 disc & 10" rear drums, stops great from 140 + mph

Ha....Yeah, the drums have the self energizing function that disc brakes do not have.
140 huh? that is really humpin!

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 12, 2021, 04:00:16 PM
Ha....Yeah, the drums have the self energizing function that disc brakes do not have.
140 huh? that is really humpin!

4.10 gear with OD 4700ish rpm
3.54 gear  4100rpm OD

That wing must aid in the stability at that speed huh?

I ordered a clutch pedal "Up Stop" from a vendor here in California.
I looked to mount the clutch master cylinder today. The unit bolts through the firewall using three 5/16" bolts. They caution to have the unit in proper alignment with the pushrod because the input shaft doesn't tolerate much of a misalignment. This means that it has to be spot on.

The master cylinder comes with a gold cadmium colored stiffener plate that lays against the firewall from the inside. You can see here that it sits too high because the black 1/0 starter cable is in the way. This is yet another obstacle related to the wiring changes I made in 2013 where I figured that I'd never thought I'd install a manual transmission....

Now I have to reroute the 1/0 cable. Currently it exits the interior and on the engine side, it makes 2 90 degree turns and ends at the starter. I am hoping that there is enough slack to run the cable along the floor and go through the firewall between the steering column firewall plate and the accelerator pedal bracket. THIS would actually be a better way since from there, it would be a straight shot to the starter. Sometimes along the way, a better idea comes along and it results in a change that is actually an improvement rather than a compromise to get a project done.

I was hesitant to drill ....but the new location where the 1/0 starter cable passes through is better than the original spot. Now the cable goes along the left side of the interior as before but turns right above the dimmer switch, lays over the steering column and goes through the firewall using a threaded plastic collar as a grommet.

First, the starter has to be unbolted to get the cable off. I've found that access to the top starter bolt is easiest through the drivers wheel well.

The gas pedal clears fine too.

The new carpet should be long enough to run up the firewall and cover the cable.

On the engine side, the cable comes out at a slight angle since the firewall had a small bend to it.
The angle won't be a problem. The cable is plenty long enough to reach the starter and to allow some engine movement for normal operation.

Looks pretty close to the header in that picture from that angle  :eek2:

It does but with the booster in the way, I couldn't get a better picture. The starter is a bit lower so the cable will drop down and toward the center. It is flexible enough to make a slight bend and still clear by plenty.
I'm still thinking of ditching that power booster and trying a 15/16" manual brake master cylinder again.

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 12, 2021, 03:05:04 AM
Backing UP a little bit...
From about 2012 to around 2014, I tried a few things to improve the braking performance. The car has had 1975 Dart Power front discs since 2001 and I swapped in Dr Diff rear discs in 2006. In 2012, even though the brakes felt decent,  I wanted to shed some weight so I tried switching to a manual master cylinder. I tried 4 of them with bore sizes between 15/16: and 1 1/8" and they all were terrible. The best of the 4 was an aluminum Dr Diff 15/16" unit but even then, it barely would skid on a dirt road. I gave up and put the power stuff back on. Later I saw that I had a disc/drum proportioning valve in the system. 4 wheel drum and 4 wheel disc systems do not use proportioning valves.
I had the prop valve with the power booster in place though....Maybe the power assist masked the mistake enough?
Regardless....I changed to a drum/drum distribution block and braking improved. Awhile later I tried another thing. I took a stock brake pedal and drilled the pushrod mounting hole above the stock hole to gain some pedal leverage. This helped quite a bit. The brakes grabbed sooner and pedal effort went down a bit. It has been this way since around 2014 or so.
Now with these new pedals, the brake pushrod hole is back to the stock position. The pedal sits a little closer to the floor. I want to have the clutch and brake pedals rest at the same height. A slight mismatch is okay but the closer, the better. I don't know how much travel the clutch pedal needs to function. This is a hydraulic clutch arrangement and I have heard that they don't move very far. As stated, the brake pedal is closer to the floor than before. Hopefully the clutch pedal will have enough travel as is. If the clutch pedal has to sit higher, I'll need to lengthen the brake pedal pushrod to allow the pedal to sit higher.

One thing to keep in mind: The height of the brake pedal in relation to the gas pedal is more important than to the clutch pedal. You want the brake pedal to be near flush with the gas pedal, while under hard braking, so that you can heel toe(feed some revs to match engine speed to wheel speed) on downshifts.

Also, I thought about installing this on my console, over the wood grain, as the console is the only part in the car with wood grain on it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DMT-Mopar-68-70-B-Body-Auto-Console-Black-Leather-Look-Vynil-Overlay-Sticker/360907378916?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

That black vinyl covering looks like a good idea. Thanks!

Quote from: darbgnik on January 13, 2021, 12:15:51 PM

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 12, 2021, 03:05:04 AM
Backing UP a little bit...
From about 2012 to around 2014, I tried a few things to improve the braking performance. The car has had 1975 Dart Power front discs since 2001 and I swapped in Dr Diff rear discs in 2006. In 2012, even though the brakes felt decent,  I wanted to shed some weight so I tried switching to a manual master cylinder. I tried 4 of them with bore sizes between 15/16: and 1 1/8" and they all were terrible. The best of the 4 was an aluminum Dr Diff 15/16" unit but even then, it barely would skid on a dirt road. I gave up and put the power stuff back on. Later I saw that I had a disc/drum proportioning valve in the system. 4 wheel drum and 4 wheel disc systems do not use proportioning valves.
I had the prop valve with the power booster in place though....Maybe the power assist masked the mistake enough?
Regardless....I changed to a drum/drum distribution block and braking improved. Awhile later I tried another thing. I took a stock brake pedal and drilled the pushrod mounting hole above the stock hole to gain some pedal leverage. This helped quite a bit. The brakes grabbed sooner and pedal effort went down a bit. It has been this way since around 2014 or so.
Now with these new pedals, the brake pushrod hole is back to the stock position. The pedal sits a little closer to the floor. I want to have the clutch and brake pedals rest at the same height. A slight mismatch is okay but the closer, the better. I don't know how much travel the clutch pedal needs to function. This is a hydraulic clutch arrangement and I have heard that they don't move very far. As stated, the brake pedal is closer to the floor than before. Hopefully the clutch pedal will have enough travel as is. If the clutch pedal has to sit higher, I'll need to lengthen the brake pedal pushrod to allow the pedal to sit higher.

One thing to keep in mind: The height of the brake pedal in relation to the gas pedal is more important than to the clutch pedal. You want the brake pedal to be near flush with the gas pedal, while under hard braking, so that you can heel toe(feed some revs to match engine speed to wheel speed) on downshifts.

Also, I thought about installing this on my console, over the wood grain, as the console is the only part in the car with wood grain on it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DMT-Mopar-68-70-B-Body-Auto-Console-Black-Leather-Look-Vynil-Overlay-Sticker/360907378916?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Great point about the pedal height in relation to the gas pedal. I was obsessed with this when I converted to power brakes from manual and looking at other cars, seems like that is the case on factory power brake cars.  I wish I could find my thread in here or Moparts about this as I got a lot of good feedback.  :Twocents:

Good luck KD, looking fantastic so far, pedals look factory.

Thanks for the kind words, guys!
No progress yesterday but I had a couple of hours today to do some stuff.
I should have mentioned toward the start of this project that there will probably be some details to deal with that may not apply to everyone and every car. These cars have been around for 50 years or so and many of them have had multiple owners doing "upgrades" or repairs. I was lucky that my car is a 3 owner and was relatively stock when I got it. Original drivetrain, suspension and brakes, wiring, upholstery, hell....It had 2 paint jobs and thats about all. I was lucky.
So far, all I have had to do is to reroute some wires for clearance for the clutch pedal and linkage. No biggie there. There will surely be a few more obstacles along the way and I am ready for that.
The clutch master cylinder is a Wilwood .75 unit and it mounts to the firewall where the stock clutch pedal pushrod usually goes through. This unit has an adapter bracket attached to match the angle of the firewall and pushrod.

I figured to thread the pushrod to the end, fish it through the hole and hold the master cylinder against the firewall to get a position on where to drill the holes to mount it.....

The holes were drilled and the gold cadmium colored stiffener plate is placed on the inside.

On 1970 models, the locking ignition system requires the automatic cars to be in PARK or the manual transmission cars to be in REVERSE for the key to turn. This was a safety feature to help avoid locking the steering with the car in motion. For 1971, the factory revised the design to include a lever on the column that had to be moved, making it a more deliberate action.
The stock ignition interlock connected the steering column linkage to the shift linkage. When switching to this 5 speed, the stock system can no longer work as it did. There are a few ways to go here. Rick Ehrenberg of Mopar Action magazine did a series of articles from early 2019 to mid 2020 where he and another guy built up a '70 Road Runner and drove it across country. In that project, they too did an SST 5 speed swap. He suggests to remove all of the parts associated to the locking ignition for the sake of safety. Me? I'm going to keep the system as close to intact as I can to maintain the locking steering feature.

The clutch master cylinder is in a crowded place here...

That flat 3/16" zig-zagged lever is part of the linkage that works for the steering and ignition interlock. Since it is no longer needed....

The clutch pushrod is adjustable. It is threaded but not like a tie rod assembly where you can leave it assembled and just rotate it to meet the length you want. I have it adjusted to where the clutch and brake pedals are about the same height.

The reservoir for the master cylinder is a remote unit. SST included a bracket that allowed the installer to mount it anywhere that is convenient. It has a hole spacing identical to the 4 bolt pattern of the stock master cylinder so I placed it there.

The master cylinder is now free and clear since I cut off the shifter tab.

With the clutch linkage figured out, I can put the fresh air vent back in place. The gasket was still intact so I just squirted some weatherstrip adhesive on the vent and taped the gasket won to let it set up before reinstalling it. Once it is back in, I can pull the carpet.

Quote from: darbgnik on January 13, 2021, 12:15:51 PM


Also, I thought about installing this on my console, over the wood grain, as the console is the only part in the car with wood grain on it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DMT-Mopar-68-70-B-Body-Auto-Console-Black-Leather-Look-Vynil-Overlay-Sticker/360907378916?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

I just ordered this! Thank you for the link.
The black textured plastic would have worked but would have taken longer and maybe wouldn't have looked as nice. I would have to find a way to attach it to the top plates either by carriage bolts or button head screws.
I also ordered carpet from Rock Auto. Black with "Mass Backing".

I've been lazy the last 3 days but today I got off of my ass and did a few things. With weather like this, it would be a shame to ride the couch today.

The 727 is out. Not a terribly difficult job but headers do make it harder to get the lower right "backwards bolt" out. I had to unbolt the header at the head and wedge it away from the block enough to get a wrench in.

The oil stains on the tubes show that I still have an oil leak. October 2019 I changed the oil pan gasket, this time I went with that molded plastic one with the imbedded rubber strips. The pan rails are dry on the sides but still weep at the timing cover and below the rear main.

The leak could be from the valve cover. I see no leaks when the car sits idling, it only does it during and after a drive. Maybe oil pools up and floods the rear of the valve cover and drips though?

Regardless...I'll have a little down time so maybe I'll replace the oil pan and valve cover gaskets and see.

Every few months, I put the car on the lift and spray oily spots underneath with gasoline from a spray bottle. It is the cheapest and most effective at cleaning the oil and grime off. I've tried Degreasers and they barely work. Gasoline is the winner here.

I forgot to mention....While removing the torque converter bolts, I found THIS.
Two good lugs. One cracked and the 4th one broken out completely. GOOD thing I was doing this swap. How long before the last 2 would have cracked and let the engine freewheel? This would suck to have happen on a road trip. Who carries an extra flexplate on a road trip?

I cleaned the oil streaks with lacquer thinner and a Scotch Brite, then sprayed them with VHT High Temp "Dull Aluminum".

The back of the block didn't show any signs of leaks but some oil streaks leaked in. I sprayed gas in here too to clean it up.

Next up was measuring for runout.
The Tremec transmissions are built to tighter tolerances than our classic 833s were. Because of that, they have to be installed as close to being  perfectly centered with the crank as possible, within .006. Yeah, who has done THIS before?
Not me.
The task isn't that hard but setting up the dial indicator I have was a pisser. The gauge is big and the rods and knobs all take up space. The bellhousing pilot hole is about 4 3/4" so there isn't much room to work.

The way that I did it:
I picked a spot and set the gauge to ZERO, then rotated the engine using a breaker bar and socket. I took semi-random spots to measure. As it turns out, the easiest way is to just find the  point closest to centerline then take measurements from there. That is how I did it accidently. This makes all the numbers grow from there rather than to go negative.
Starting from ZERO, spin the engine a full revolution and when you get back to the starting point again, the gauge should return to ZERO. If it doesn't, a mistake was made and you will need to start over. Look to make sure that NO part of the dial indicator makes contact with anything.
I checked it three times and each time, the numbers showed  .027 off of zero. This means that IF I move the bell half of that distance to the LEFT, I will be perfectly centered. I need .0135 offset dowels to get there. The ones I bought were .007 so I'll need to order the next size UP which are......014. That will get me almost perfectly in the middle!

Ever since I tore apart my first Mopar engine/trans, it amazed me how all the power of the engine goes through that flimsy flexplate. Some even have windows cut in them below each of the bolt holes too, for what? to save 3 oz of weight? Maybe to make it flex more? I know they work fine up to a certain power level, but I always swap mine out for a round aftermarket flexplate. I'm no engineer, but I think just being round greatly increases the strength and resists cracking, it wouldn't flex as much, but does it really need to?

Engineering is an interesting thing.
I've been in construction since the 80s so I have seen the industry change over time. Nowadays we add all sorts of reinforcements to withstand earthquakes and high winds. Something as simple as sheets of 3/8" plywood nailed to the walls tremendously strengthens the building.
Regarding the flexplate:
I have a buddy with a 360 Valiant. He had a stock flexplate crack 2 ears off like this one did. It is barely stronger than a stock mill. Maybe his engine and trans were beyond the acceptable limits of runout and the misalignment resulted in cracking?
This is the first time I have had it happen to me.
I was going to use this flexplate in Jigsaw but screw that...It is going in the scrap pile. I'll take a stock one and drill it oversize for the 7/16" bolts that this converter uses.

With the 727 out and the SST bell housing in place (At least temporarily) I looked at the instructions on what to do next. The instructions state to measure from the bellhousing and drill two reference holes in the trans tunnel. These two holes are used from inside the car to lay a paper template on the top of the trans tunnel to show where to cut. The Tremec install does not require any structural cutting, just a rectangle shaped opening that will be covered by a sheet metal box sort of like this:

I mentioned before the tendency when working on a big project to keep finding more and more things to do....I call it The Snowball Effect.
Succumbing to that often turns a 3 week project into 3 years.
It is tempting to address every little thing you see when the car is apart. It makes sense to fix things that are now right in front of you but at the same time, you have to know that each diversion delays the finish.
Some things you can't ignore, stuff that gets buried makes sense to fix even if it delays the completion.

I figured to leave the exhaust connected to hold the engine in position. Once I removed the right header, I started to think about how the engine has sat out of level for awhile. The passenger side sat lower by a noticeable amount. I figured that with a new transmission going in, I should get the engine sitting right.

"While you're in there's" can really enlarge a project. Which is why when I start a task, I aim to have the car back together in a weekend, at all costs. I know me, if it got out of hand, it would get waaaay out of hand....

The rubber in the right side motor mount was 1 inch thick and cracked. A new replacement I had stashed away was 1 1/4".
I made a steel plate for a shim to slip between the motor mount and K member but wanted to see if the thicker motor mount would be enough.

Now the engine sits slightly higher on the right. I expect the rubber to compress a bit after driving the car.

The center link sits out of level though. I suspect the Idler arm mount needs to be modified to get the angle corrected.

Quote from: darbgnik on January 20, 2021, 12:40:51 AM
"While you're in there's" can really enlarge a project. Which is why when I start a task, I aim to have the car back together in a weekend, at all costs. I know me, if it got out of hand, it would get waaaay out of hand....

Yep...If I were to allow myself to stop to address every small thing, I'd be too old to drive the car by the time I'm done.

Another One of the reasons that it made sense to get the engine level is that the hole to be cut in the trans tunnel is determined by the position of the engine.
The instructions state to measure from the trans mounting face on the bellhousing and mark the underside of the center of the tunnel. The rearmost measurement is supposed to be clear of the torsion bar crossmember.
If the engine is out of square or out of level, the measurements are meaningless. 
I was able to get the engine level side to side but fore and aft is a difficult target. All V8s sit out of level, low at the firewall end. 
The SST kit came with a new dropped crossmember and trans mount so that height is already established. The trouble is, with the floor intact, I can't fit the trans in place. I can't figure exactly where to cut the floor because I don't know the proper angle that the engine and trans will be once completed. With no trans in place, measuring from the bell with the back of the engine too low results in the hole in the floor being too far rearward.
I suspect that I had the back of the engine too low since many years ago when I changed the trans crossmember. I had a Gear Vendors overdrive and everyone told me that the trans tunnel would need dimpling at the 10:00 and 2:00 positions. Mine cleared with about 1/2".  Now is the time to get it right. This will probably mean that I'll need to cut the exhaust pipes and angle them a little to sit squarely to the header collectors.

The instructions do state that the rearmost hole should be just forward of the torsion bar crossmember. I used the jackstand to raise the back of the engine so that I would get a correct measurement from the bell to the trans tunnel.

Holes are drilled now.

Excellent write up on the install.   :2thumbs:

Thanks for the info on the gear venders, now I just need to make up my mind and either get it or do some sort of swap.

Really enjoy this.   :2thumbs:

Thanks so much for this Kern Dog. I am glued to this thread. I will be doing this swap at some stage.

I'm glad to help, guys. I enjoy passing along whatever information that I can.  :2thumbs:

I mentioned awhile back that when I had the Gear Vendors unit, I didn't have to clearance the trans tunnel like everyone said I would. I had at least 1/2" of clearance between the tunnel and the GV unit. I had a modified trans crossmember in the car and suspected that it may have the trans mount too low.
Today I confirmed it. I actually stumbled across this determination....Funny how that happens. I had the hood up on Jigsaw and was looking at the transmission crossmember that was just loosely mounted in the chassis.
See the pictures.
The first ones are the freshly painted stock crossmember with a NEW mount. Notice the height of it, how it sits above the holes that mount the crossmember to the car.

Here is the crossmember that has been in the car for almost 9 years. Notice how low the mount is!

Yeah....that is 1 3/8" lower than stock.
Even with the 1/4" shim I had in there, the trans still sat 1 1/8" low. I never had bad vibrations, never wore out a U-Joint either.
Before I took the 727 out, I measured the distance from the floor to the top of the header collectors. It was hard to get a direct sightline but it looked to be between
2 1/4 to 2 1/2".

Carpet is out.
Looking at all this sound deadener, it is no wonder this car is 4000 lbs!

I took measurements of where the automatic trans shifter bracket sits before removal. This will help when I convert Jigsaw to a floor shift setup.

I first planned on using the 4 1/2" angle grinder to cut the welds but the blade wasn't big enough to reach. I ended up using a Sawzall. That was a better idea anyway since it cut down on shooting sparks.

First though, I had to peel up some of this sound deadener. I marked a perimeter then cut through to the metal with a utility knife. I used a screwdriver to lift an edge, then pulled it up. It came up a whole lot easier than I expected.

Silver Sport provides a paper template to determine where to cut the tunnel. The top side of the Tremec sits higher than any 727 so the floor has to be opened up to make room.
I used a pair of 16 penny nails to properly position the template, then taped it down and cut 1/4" inside of the lines. I figured that it is easier to cut more later rather than to add metal back.

I used the transmission jack to lift the Tremec into place. The front bearing collar was spritzed with a little WD40 to help it slide into place. There is no clutch or pilot bearing in place, this is just a test fit to see if the tunnel hole is big enough.

It fits!

The instructions and paper template were excellent. I did need to pry a bit to get some  tunnel clearance on the right side. The left side is real close but I'll just bend the edge rather than to cut out more. The rear edge is about 3/8" to 1/2" from the torsion bar crossmember. I'm going to cut it out to the crossmember though. This will help the shifter stub clear the opening when I install the trans for good. With the trans in place, the header collector now sits 1 7/8" from the floor. That means that the transmission raised up between 3/8" to 5/8". This will give a bit more ground clearance for the headers.

I have several things waiting to arrive. I bought new carpet from Rock Auto. I've learned that almost ALL classic car carpets are made by ACC. Yeah...There is no reason to pay more so I bought from them. This kit comes with what they call "Mass Backing", some type of padding that is supposed to reduce heat and noise. It may be overkill since I have all that sound deadener.
I ordered offset dowel pins, they might be here as soon as Friday. Once those are installed, I can mount the flywheel, pilot bearing, clutch and pressure plate.

Kerndog,

What I suggest may not be pertinent because I have an older model with a different front top.  They probably have it sorted, but I would do a quick check to see if you can estimate what your driveline angles are likely to be.  

What I found was that I had to massage the front of the tunnel to get the angles right.  There could be another cause (I wonder like old springs in the back, different engine position, shimmed K-frame..... but it might be worth a check (even a mock up) while the car is in this state.  

There is plenty of clearance there in this car. Maybe the mods that Silver Sport does alleviated the fitment issues that others have had before?

The RobbMC Performance .014 offset dowels came in today. The trans is still in the car though and I wanted to work on the sheet metal tunnel patch.

First up, I reshaped the opening a little. The left side was bent outward a bit instead of being cut more. The rear edge was cut back to the edge of the torsion bar crossmember. This will help with removal and installation since the shifter sits on that blocky stub and it makes it tough to fit into place.

The SST kit came with the sheet metal section to patch over the hole. There were no instructions on how to shape it or anything, just a picture. To be fair, they sent me a 4 speed to 5 speed set of instructions instead of Automatic to 5 speed.
Not a problem for me though. I took a sheet of cardboard as a template.

The dent in the sheet metal was in it when I got it. No problem....The whole she-bang hides under the console.

I attached it to the tunnel with screws. It will come back off so I can clean the paint off to get good welds.
I'll lift the car up and see how it looks from underneath soon.

I was concerned that the patch might interfere with the console. It all clears just fine though.

I did encounter a problem though.
Before I even started this project, I planned on taking the console top plates from this car and use them on Jigsaw. For Ginger here, I wanted to dechrome the pieces and paint them a Satin Black. I searched for and bought a set of console parts from a guy on FBBO. A guy at the 1970Charger Registry said that he modified an Automatic transmission top plate to use with a 4 speed so I figured I was all set.

I took the one I bought and sandblasted it. Today I cut the divider from the middle.  Here is the console in the stock position:

The transmission is in neutral. There is no way that this will work.
I was wondering if I could move the console forward to center the shifter in the opening but that means building a new bracket to support the rear of the console.
I could find a way to move the shifter rearward by welding an extension on the adapter bracket.
I asked around and learned why the shifter sits so far forward and why the Automatic trans version is so far off...
Here is MY plate:

This is a stock 4 speed top plate.

Yeah...The automatic version hole is from 11 3/8"  to 15 7/8"  and the 4 speed one is 8 3/8 to 14 1/2".  I don't know how the other guy made his work without adding to the end nearest the console door. Now I'm on the lookout for a used 4 speed plate.

I lifted the car up so I could measure for the drive shaft. For years, everyone I have dealt with says to measure for the shaft with the car resting on it's own weight. I measured the distance with the tires hanging, then put the car on screw jacks with the car barely off of the lift pads...

The drive shaft was 58 9/16" at full droop. Care to guess the difference with the car on the jacks?

It was the SAME!
Crazy, huh? It didn't change but maybe 1/32 of an inch. SST was clear about measuring the "right way". Everyone is.
Maybe mine didn't change because I have less suspension travel? I have MP 440/Hemi springs and a rear sway bar. The bar does limit downward axle travel a bit but this was an interesting discovery.

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 22, 2021, 12:27:32 AM
It was the SAME!
Crazy, huh? It didn't change but maybe 1/32 of an inch. SST was clear about measuring the "right way". Everyone is.
Maybe mine didn't change because I have less suspension travel? I have MP 440/Hemi springs and a rear sway bar. The bar does limit downward axle travel a bit but this was an interesting discovery.

I was surprised by that, myself.  :shruggy:

Nice progress!  Hopefully you can find a 4 speed top plate to swap.  It would be a lot of work, but you could cut out the center section and insert your material of choice.

Wonderful progress mate.

So you kept the Auto console and just planning to change the top plate. Hopefully they are interchangeable.

I know the manual console has a bigger bump on the driver's side to accomodate the side linkage of the 4 speed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PG-Classic-131-70-Mopar-1969-1970-B-body-Woodgrain-4-Speed-Console-Top-Plate/372649849288?fits=Year%3A1969%7CModel%3ACharger&epid=2143165749&hash=item56c3a971c8:g:hTwAAOxy1RZSaU4m

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 22, 2021, 12:27:32 AM
It was the SAME!

Still good advice to check it with chassis loaded for most, as most don't understand the reason for variance.

At full droop with long shocks the front half of the leaf pivots the rearend towards the front of the car. (after dropping below or above parallel arc travel moves centerline forward)  If you have limited travel in the extended range and start out with the spring -flatter- and stiffer so it ends up flat, you have little fore/aft movement.

But, take a guy with old soggy springs, shackles at full droop, vs sitting on the ground, could be a substantial difference.

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 22, 2021, 12:12:42 AM
This is a stock 4 speed top plate.

So it looks like you may need to order the manual top plate overlay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DMT-Mopar-68-70-B-Body-Manual-Console-Black-Leather-Look-Vinyl-Overlay-Sticker/360907379765?hash=item5407c19435:g:VoYAAOxySoJTS0Py

Quote from: OzCharger69 on January 22, 2021, 05:29:00 PM
Wonderful progress mate.

So you kept the Auto console and just planning to change the top plate. Hopefully they are interchangeable.

I know the manual console has a bigger bump on the driver's side to accomodate the side linkage of the 4 speed.

Hey there,
The Tremec 5 speed is an internal rail shifter design, much different from the stock external, side mounted shifter. The automatic console works just fine, it is only the shifter hole that is different.
I found a fix though....

I did first admit defeat and put out a Want-To-Buy ad for a stock 4 speed console plate.
I started thinking that I might as well try to modify the automatic one that I have. I already sandblasted the chrome off of it, rendering it useless to most people buying at a swap meet.
The 4 speed shifter hole is 6 inches long. The shifter boot that came with this kit is about 5 inches long overall. I either needed a bigger boot or to shrink the hole.
The Tremec has much shorter throws than the 833. The shifter stub is also higher so the point from which it pivots is closer to the top plate of the console. These two things allow for a shorter arc of movement for the shifter lever and afforded me the opportunity to make the hole smaller and be able to use the boot I have. I'm not concerned with it looking original but it won't look like a butchered mess.
I moved the shifter to 3rd gear and marked 1 1/8" ahead of the lever, then shifted to 4th and marked 1 inch 1/8" . I then cut the console plate and test fitted it using  apiece of cardboard to simulate the end of the opening.

Looks like it is going to work.
The pieces are die cast aluminum. I took a grinder disc to the ridges, knocking them down and cutting what I needed to fill in the back side of the hole.

The hole will allow the boot to fit nicely. In fact, the console plate front and back are the right space apart to fit in between the  "ribs" of the boot.

One drawback but not a big one...The spacing of the hole is a custom one. No "Off the shelf" vinyl overlay will work. I bought a set for a stock 4 speed and now I have no use for it. An automatic one would work for the top but a 4 speed one is too short for both sections. I'm going to look at commercial grade shelf paper or black textured plastic sheeting. I had first intended to use the black plastic long before I even turned a wrench on this project.

That filled in section was epoxied in place with JB Weld.....

I did the back side first. By tomorrow it should be set up well enough to flip it over and get some on the top side. It doesn't have to look pretty, just have no bumps or ridges. There will be some type of covering over it whether it is the vinyl wrap over the thin sheet metal or the black textured plastic.

Next up was the console brackets. The front one came off since that part of the transmission tunnel was cut out to make room. The middle console bracket is welded to the automatic trans shifter mounting bracket and I am keeping those intact to use on the other car, Jigsaw.

The brackets were simple. I mocked them up before fitment. Tomorrow I weld them in place.

Three things came in today...The Carpet from Rock Auto, the console top overlays and the clutch Up-Stop bumper. Man...I had no idea that those were so small!

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 23, 2021, 05:06:28 AM
Three things came in today...The Carpet from Rock Auto, the console top overlays and the clutch Up-Stop bumper. Man...I had no idea that those were so small!

FYI - I added a little rubber spacer in addition to it so it would move the pedal a little lower. 

Do the JB weld tubes still have the little anecdotal advertising bits... you know something some grandma in Nebraska who used it to stick a tractor engine to to I-beam running across the barn to mechanize her gantry lift?

No advertising on the JB Weld packages.

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 23, 2021, 02:02:25 PM
No advertising on the JB Weld packages.

What a shame.  We lost something to the past. 

I recall a friend of mine reading the package and saying he needed to buy that stuff - just for what it said on the package.  They might have also lost some sales. 

I remember the ads....Guy with a hard had stuck to an I-Beam, guy dangling while holding onto the hat... :eek2:

I smeared some more of it on the top of the console plate.

The tunnel patch panel was welded in place along with the console brackets.

I put the car up on the lift and removed the transmission and bellhousing, then dressed the inside of the tunnel patch. I used some seam sealer on the edges and sprayed the bare metal with some Krylon.

I will spread seam sealer on the interior side of the tunnel tomorrow.

Next up.....Removing the stock dowels in the back of the block. The instructions had a few suggestions including Vise Grips, drilling and tapping the middle, cutting a flat groove to pry with a screwdriver....
Nah.
LOOK at how little sticks out of the block! There isn't even 1/4" to grab on these.

I took some stock lug nuts and welded them onto the dowels.
I left them about 1/8" off of the block so I could tap a Carpenters nail puller behind them.

These are the measurements I got with the stock dowels in place.

It was NOT a 5 minute job.


My technique:

Install the dowels. Tighten the center set screw.
Install the top 2 bellhousing bolts and the bottom 7/16" backwards bolts, installed snug.
Check runout and record numbers.
Back off bell bolts, back off dowel set screws, clock them slightly, tighten set screw.
Tighten bell bolts.
Recheck runout.
Repeat.
Repeat.
THIS is the final result.

That is WELL within the .005 spec. There is .004 left to right and .0025 top to bottom.

So far, yeah...THIS has been the LEAST fun, the most frustrating and the LEAST rewarding part. I was out there again today looking to verify the numbers. I repositioned the dowels in several ways to see what results I could get.
I was a dumb ass and didn't think to record where they were positioned from yesterday. This meant that I had a hell of a time getting it back into spec.
Yeah, I spent three hours today messing around with it. I had the bell off maybe 10 times. I clocked the pins multiple times. I read the instructions numerous times. This was a very frustrating day. I kept getting conflicting numbers that made no sense. I was yelling, cussing and bitching and not having any fun at all.
The original dowels indicated that I was .027 to the right almost  horizontal, something like 9:30 to 3:30. I was having trouble understanding that a POSITIVE number meant that the bell had to come back to get that number closer to zero. This meant that I had to point the dowel offset (High points) toward the positive number areas. I finished with it slightly better than yesterday but not knowing exactly why.
Once I got inside and talked to the Wife about it, I made sense of it. Point the offset/High points to the POSITIVE numbers.....IT is pretty easy when you understand it. Still, when I read in Mopar Action where Rick Ehrenberg states....Spend the 20 minutes to get this right I want to kick someone in the dick. 20 minutes my ass......

Yeah! 20 minutes for someone who has done the process a few dozen times!
I did mine. I used the McRobb dowels as you did. Those dowels were much easier to use than a normal dowel. It took me a long time to get the bellhousing set where it should be. I was using a larger offset dowel than I needed so it moved the bellhousing too far. It took me quite a while to figure out what was happening. I went to a .014" dowel instead of the .021" and it came right into where it needed to be.

Thanks. I was hoping that I was not the only one that had trouble.
I bought the dial indicator and a set of the smallest offset dowels from Summit racing, then found that I needed the .014 dowels.

I went to bolt up the flywheel today and....it will not fit. The flange on the crank is 2.17 and the bore on the flywheel is 2.15. I checked 2 other stock flywheels and found that they measure the same as this new flywheel.

The transmission mount has  two 3/8" carriage bolts that secure it to the crossmember. One was in crooked when I pulled it from the box and when I tried to straighten it, the meager welds broke loose. Not a big deal...I just cleaned them up and tack welded both so they should hold together.

The console top plate:
Remember that the opening for the shifter is smaller than a stock 4 speed. I took the automatic console pieces and modified them to work.
I bought a kit of 4 speed spec vinyl overlays but since they wont fit, I needed an alternative. I bought a roll of shelf paper for $9 at Home Depot to see how it will work.

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 26, 2021, 01:50:36 AM
So far, yeah...THIS has been the LEAST fun, the most frustrating and the LEAST rewarding part. I was out there again today looking to verify the numbers. I repositioned the dowels in several ways to see what results I could get.
I was a dumb ass and didn't think to record where they were positioned from yesterday. This meant that I had a hell of a time getting it back into spec.
Yeah, I spent three hours today messing around with it. I had the bell off maybe 10 times. I clocked the pins multiple times. I read the instructions numerous times. This was a very frustrating day. I kept getting conflicting numbers that made no sense. I was yelling, cussing and bitching and not having any fun at all.
The original dowels indicated that I was .027 to the right almost  horizontal, something like 9:30 to 3:30. I was having trouble understanding that a POSITIVE number meant that the bell had to come back to get that number closer to zero. This meant that I had to point the dowel offset (High points) toward the positive number areas. I finished with it slightly better than yesterday but not knowing exactly why.
Once I got inside and talked to the Wife about it, I made sense of it. Point the offset/High points to the POSITIVE numbers.....IT is pretty easy when you understand it. Still, when I read in Mopar Action where Rick Ehrenberg states....Spend the 20 minutes to get this right I want to kick someone in the dick. 20 minutes my ass......

Nice work, I think I spent almost as much time just setting up the dial indictor, only to find out I was ok. It seems like half the people out there don't check this but get away with it, but imagine if you put this all together and it didn't shift at all  :flame:  A-833s are less sensitive to this than modern trans, but I think it's time well spent.  Ask me how much fun it is to drop a new engine in a car, that you can't drive because it can not shift gears at all  :-\

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 26, 2021, 09:09:15 PM
I went to bolt up the flywheel today and....it will not fit. The flange on the crank is 2.17 and the bore on the flywheel is 2.15. I checked 2 other stock flywheels and found that they measure the same as this new flywheel.

Where did the flywheel come from, 130 tooth?  The new flywheel I put on my cast crank 440 was tight, harder to get off than on. I imagine you could take a hone and open up the flywheel a thou? :drive:

The flywheel will have to be bored over or the crank hub machined down.
I'm not going to remove the crank.
I'll need to get a truly accurate measurement of the crank hub and then find a machine shop that can ream out the flywheel. It will mean that the flywheel is for this engine only from now on but so what...

Finding someone that can properly bore out the hole in this flywheel isn't easy. Three calls and so far none of them know how to do it properly.

I finally found a guy that says he can do it. The trouble for most people is, the hub in the middle is where they usually establish all reference measurements so  since it is the bore itself that needs work, they have to find some other way to mount it and machine the bore.
Here are the better calipers.

Here is the number I got from the crank hub. Looks like 2.178 to me.

I measured the flexplate too. The numbers varied a bit. I'm going to take this to the machinist along with the flywheel. I am guessing that he would machine the hole to the smallest size on this flexplate.

I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but for just .002", I would heat up the flywheel a couple hundred degrees to expand the hole and then mount it. I don't see any obvious harm in that other than you'll need heat to remove it too.

That's how the ring gear is installed on the flywheel.

Edit: Just realized it's closer to .020" smaller, heat probably won't work.

The crank measured 2.178. The flywheel measured 2.152. That is .026. Too much for me.
I took the flywheel to a shop today. The man said it should be done next week.

The flywheel is done. I picked it up today and bolted it up using Locktite and torqued to factory specs.

Clutch looks a bit different from others I've seen.

I decided to use studs for the 7/16" backwards bolts.

Next up was to measure  a few things. First I measured the depth from the face of the bell to the fingers on the pressure plate.

The last picture was from the SST instructions. My actual measurement was 3 7/16".

Next was to compress the throwout bearing then measure from the outside of the nearing to the transmission case. I got 3 5/16" The difference was 1/8", the minimum allowable.

I thought the bellhousing was on for good but the instructions call for it to come off and get mounted to the transmission to set up the hydraulic line and side cover.

Now the throwout bearing stays with the bellhousing.

The clutch master cylinder had a remote reservoir mounted up near the brake master cylinder. The fluid will gravity feed to the master cylinder down at the firewall. I cut and attached the hose.

The braided hydraulic line will attach to the clutch master cylinder where you see the yellow cap.

The wiring needs to be done before the transmission is in place since the girth of the case leaves little room. The speed sensor is on the right side. 2 wires, polarity doesn't matter. My instrument cluster is from Dakota Digital and uses three wires. Red, black and white. The man at DD said the red wire can be omitted so I'll solder the black and white to the Tremec white wires.

The reverse light sensor is on the left and is also a 2 wire plug. As you know, the stock automatic is a 3 wire arrangement. The center terminal is ground, the outer terminals are positive but again, polarity isn't important. I'll solder to the center and one outer terminal and it should work.

Since I have dealt with automatic transmissions in these Mopars almost exclusively, I am seeing some things for the first time in this project. Clutch linkage, clutch master cylinder, measuring for bellhousing runout and now, starter clearance.
It never occurred to me that the manual trans flywheel was larger than the automatic and that the starter would have to move out to fit. Today when bolting up the starter, I noticed that where I used to have a fair amount of clearance to the headers, now there were 2 tubes that were within approx 3/16". I knew that while the car would start and run without a rattle, the life of the starter would certainly be shortened with the heat that close.

I took a Sharpie and marked where I needed to add some room. (Hammer)
Way back when I first installed these TTI 2" headers, the #3 and #5 tubes hit the steering box and required some mash work to clear. Now that I replaced the squished RH motor mount with a better one, while the engine now sits level.....it ended up closing the clearance gap I had so I needed to mash them a bit more.

I plan to tape up the pipes so they don't get so scratched up going back in. Because of that, I'm letting them dry overnight.

I last had this engine out of the car in 2011 for a refresh. Rings, bearings and gaskets. I painted it then as well but some paint has flaked off. I decided to degrease and scuff a few places and touch up the paint.

The speedometer speed sensor is on the right side of the Tremec so I had to reroute the wiring. I ran it over the pinch weld and to the right side in a way that will be out of the way and shouldn't move out of position.  I soldered to the Tremec supplied wires and shrink wrapped it all nicely. It was left long enough to allow me to connect it with the tail shaft pointing down. Clearance is tight when the trans is in place.

The stock reverse lights and neutral safety switch wiring use 3 wires. Black, Black with White stripe and Brown with Yellow stripe. The Brown one was the middle wire and was cut off since it was for the neutral safety switch that I won't be using. The two outer wires are reverse lights. I soldered and shrink wrapped them to the Tremec Purple and Black wires, then tucked it up into the clip on the floor normally used to retain the speedometer cable.

I connected the hydraulic hard line and tucked it up close to the floor.

I had a hard time today.
The transmission would NOT seat. No matter what I did, I was left with a 1/2" gap between the bell and the transmission. I had the trans in and out 3 times looking for the cause. I thought maybe the clutch moved from it's position but I checked that with the clutch alignment tool and it was fine. I lightly greased the input shaft splines and the pilot shaft at the end, still no luck. I was pissed...yelling and ready to beat something with a hammer.
I came inside for awhile and cooled down. A guy at FBBO mentioned that his Silver Sport kit came with an undersized pilot bearing!
I pulled the trans back out a 4th time...

The clutch alignment tool had a size of .62 and the trans input shaft was approx .685. This looked like the smoking gun but I needed to measure the actual bearing to know for sure. This meant removing the starter, bell, hydraulic line and throwout bearing, clutch and flywheel.

The bell fits the trans fine and the clutch fits the input shaft....

The pilot bearing has a rubber seal at the edge that measured .61, smaller than both the input shaft and the alignment tool. With the calipers in a bit deeper, the measurement was hard to get exactly since this is a roller bearing type. Every number that I took was larger than the .685 of the input shaft so it wasn't the size of the bearing that was the problem. So far, all the components fit fine when separate.
I am humble enough to admit when I screw up. I saw that I didn't drive the pilot bearing in flush and even. It sat in the recess crooked. I went ahead and drove it in further and evenly, then decided to test fit the trans again but without the flywheel or clutch in place. I mounted the bell, then lifted the trans into position rather easily.

I was running out of time so I ended the day by cleaning the old Locktite from the bolts and put the flywheel and clutch back on. With any luck, I'll be able to get the transmission in tomorrow.

Quote from: darbgnik on January 20, 2021, 12:40:51 AM
"While you're in there's" can really enlarge a project. Which is why when I start a task, I aim to have the car back together in a weekend, at all costs. I know me, if it got out of hand, it would get waaaay out of hand....

I knew that other guys would understand.   :2thumbs:

Looks like you're doing a very nice and thorough job.  Thanks for taking the time to document the odyssey!

You are welcome. It has NOT been fun the whole time.
My hands are sore from man-handling this friggin thing and I don't have office-guy hands.
Another 2 hours spent trying to get it to seat. At best, I get 3/8" from being seated. Having the car lift and the trans jack is great but sometimes being on the concrete with the leverage of the floor along with 2 hands and 2 legs to push....I don't know which is better.
How the hell is this supposed to fit?
The trans fit in there with no clutch.
The clutch fit the input shaft.
I am wiggling the rear of the trans, clocking it, shaking it and cannot get anywhere. I tried loosening the pressure plate bolts but that resulted in the pressure plate fingers extending and taking up all the slack in the throwout bearing. This meant that to seat the trans, I was now having to work against the pressure plate.
This has been the biggest pain in the dick of this whole project. If you're considering this swap, be warned. This part sucks ass.
I called a buddy that did this installation in a '71 Challenger 6 or 7 years ago. He is going to come by and lend a hand.

Have you considered just yanking the engine, mating it and the trans up and then just banana the thing in there?

I fought the living shit out of the 833 on my former Cuda before giving up and yanking the engine. It literally fell together and I was kicking myself for not doing it sooner.

Banana....That is funny.  :2thumbs:

I could have done that. It might have been easier too but it would have taken more time. Radiator and hood removal, fuel system, wiring, headers....
Paul and his son Mike came over and saved the day. Paul said that he also had trouble getting the transmission to seat. He thought it was an issue of the input shaft bearing collar being tight and not the pilot bearing. I thought about that and remembered how even with the trans on the jack by itself, the bell had to be tapped onto the trans with a rubber mallet. I didn't measure them but I suspect that the bellhousing is either exactly the same size as the bearing retainer or slightly smaller to have an interference fit. Christ, what a pain in the ass!
Paul suggested that I spritz the bearing collar with some white lithium grease. I did so, then  he wiggled the trans while I turned each of the 4 mounting bolts 1/2 turn at a time. They all turned fairly easily so I doubt that I did any damage. I just didn't have any leverage by standing behind the transmission.

Good to hear you got it in place.  I've had the same alignment issue with my A833 during install (2 times now).  During the last time, after inserting the transmission as far as I could (within approximately .50") I had someone push the clutch pedal to release the clutch disc. allowing it to shift a bit on the splined shaft (which was already splined up to the clutch disc).  With the clutch pedal depressed I was then able to easily slide the transmission in the rest of the way.  In my case I believe the clutch was providing just enough binding against the shaft to prevent it from slipping all the way in.

That could have been the problem here too but the bearing collar on this setup is longer than an 833. If it is in friction, there is a longer path to go to seat the transmission.  I've also noticed that cast iron (As in stock 833 models) sometimes seems to slide better than aluminum on aluminum. The instructions suggest just what you did. I agree that it would work with a traditional mechanical linkage clutch setup. This is a hydraulic throwout bearing that uses the input bearing collar as a backstop and expands out from there. Doing it your way, if the clutch pedal is pressed, it would push the transmission away from the bellhousing, causing the installer to have to overcome not only the pressure plate springs but also whatever interference that may occur with the other parts.
The bellhousing runout and the final fitment have been the hardest part about this project. I'm improving on my skills but the trans shouldn't be such a tight fit in my opinion. What do they have to gain by making it so tight? Are the bearings so intolerant of a little bit of misalignment that they have to machine everything so damn tight?

Since I am waiting on a drive shaft with a delivery date as yet to be determined, I'm buttoning up the details. Since I painted the left header, I figured that I'd paint the right one too. It actually comes out easily even with the steering linkage in place...amazing!

With the header out, it cleared the way to clean up some grime. Paint had flaked a bit too so I sanded and ran a wire brush along the side then painted it.

In October 2019 I took out the Mopar Performance windage tray and put in one of those plastic ones with the built in gasket. I had heard that it was a better sealing setup compared to the gasket sandwich. It wasn't for me as evident by the oil streaks on the right header. It looked like it was leaking at the rear and the torque converter spinning must have thrown the oil right toward the right header.
I didn't have the tin shield to block off the opening.

With the back of the engine propped up by the screw jack, all of the shaking and wiggling to install the transmission put a dent in the oil pan. I figured that since I have to pull the pan to pound out the dent, I'm going back to the steel windage tray. I can't use the one I had....I put it in the 383 for my other Charger.
I ordered a Milidon tray and gaskets. I'm going to use THIS as a sealant. It gets excellent reviews...

Got a few things done today. First up was to put away tools that I don't think I'll need. A guy elsewhere wrote how he felt that heused every tool in the box on his Tremec swap and I see what he meant.
The lower section of the bellhousing gets closed off with a stamped steel cover:

I tapped a little clearance into a tube that was close to the right side of the bellhousing. I don't like having to do this but I'd rather have these dents than rattles and vibration.

I mentioned before that I needed to pull the oil pan to flatten the dent. The engine was supported by a screw jack while the auto was out and while installing the Tremec and all of the movement and wiggling put a depression in the pan and cracked off some paint.

You can see how the side rails were dry and the ends of the pan were leaking.
I suspected that the plastic windage tray and molded gasket wasn't sealing like it should. I bought a Milodon tray and some gaskets to use if my suspicions prove to be true.

Front side had some leaks.

With the pan off, look at the top side of the tray/gasket. You can see that the sides are dry between the sealing ribs but the rear is wet all the way across.

The problem?
Here is the rear of the pan.

Yep....The pan is a Milodon 6 quart HEMI pan but the sealing ribs of the tray stick outside of the pan rail at each end.
Front side:

So was it like that when new or did the heat make it stretch out over time ?

Did the bend in the pan bend the oil pick up also ??

Great read KD, thanks. Looking forward to hearing how you like it "in use"

Quote from: 70 sublime on February 12, 2021, 06:24:59 AM
So was it like that when new or did the heat make it stretch out over time ?

Did the bend in the pan bend the oil pick up also ??

I will check the pickup tube by seeing if it matches the depth of the sump.
The windage tray shouldn't have stretched since it was bolted in tight. It may have squished a bit but I didn't look real close at it when I installed in in 2019. I'm going to look closer at it to see if I can find any identifying marks.

The Right Stuff is amazing you will like it   ,  I had the same problem with my  6 Speed trans not wanting to seat either  , big pair of channel locks did the trick . 

Thank you. Stuart.

It turns out that this molded windage tray is meant to work with stock type pans. The "402" oil pan that I have from another engine is 1/4" longer overall than this Milodon. The wider flange allows the windage tray to make contact where this narrower Milodon one does not.

I'm going back to the traditional gasket sandwich.

The Milodon windage tray is oddly larger than not only their pan but even the stock pan. It does look to be made well though.

I hesitated to mention it because it wasn't directly related to the Tremec swap but since I have gone off topic many times before, here goes....
When I drained the pan in prep to remove it to pound out the dent, the drain oil looked dirty but otherwise fine. Once the pan was off, the oil remaining in the pan had a sort of silvery shimmer to it. Usually this is bad news, like a cam or lifter has started to go bad or the rod or main bearings are shedding material.
It had me worried.
I cut open the oil filter and spread the pleats apart. Nothing but dark oil. I poured gas in a 5 gallon bucket and swished the filter around in it, then took a magnet and dragged it along the bottom of the bucket. I got a few very small metal particles but I can't confirm that they were not in the bucket beforehand. They could have even been from when I cut the filter open even though I used a chisel. A whizzer wheel would have been a stupid way to cut it open since the metal from the cutting would effectively contaminate the filter.
Next up, I pulled 2 main caps from the block. Both looked perfect. A little wear but not even through the dull gray outer layer. I pulled #8 rod cap. Same thing, it looked great.
The engine has been running great before this swap. Zero valvetrain clatter aside from what you'd expect from a MP solid cam with .028/.032 lash specs. Still, that shimmer in the oil wasn't from crank bearings so maybe it was from the cam or lifters?

Nope. I pulled the rocker arms and shafts from both sides and pulled one pushrod and lifter at a time. Every one of them looked fine. I put the rocker arms back on and lashed the valves. Aluminum heads grow with heat so when setting valve lash, you have to set them .006 tighter than the spec. MP cams do have a .028 intake, .032 Exhaust lash but I went .004 tighter than that along with the .006 to compensate for the heads. I've read of other guys running the lash as close as .020 Intake .024 Exhaust but I didn't want to push my luck.

With the crank bearings looking good and no obvious smoking gun with the rocker arms, cam and lifters, I decided that it is probably fine. I have been using the Comp Cams break in supplement in every oil change. The distributor drive gear looks great, the only thing left is the timing set and the fuel pup pushrod.
I got san email that the drive shaft was finished and has been shipped.

I repainted the fan and coil bracket just before closing up shop.
The windage tray and oil pan need to be installed, then most of the mechanical stuff related to the swap is done. Carpet, seats, console and dash/gauge wiring are still on the list too.

Oh yeah...I still need to paint the console parts!

Quote from: Kern Dog on February 14, 2021, 10:26:48 PM
With the crank bearings looking good and no obvious smoking gun with the rocker arms, cam and lifters, I decided that it is probably fine. I have been using the Comp Cams break in supplement in every oil change. The distributor drive gear looks great, the only thing left is the timing set and the fuel pup pushrod.
I got san email that the drive shaft was finished and has been shipped.

I repainted the fan and coil bracket just before closing up shop.
The windage tray and oil pan need to be installed, then most of the mechanical stuff related to the swap is done. Carpet, seats, console and dash/gauge wiring are still on the list too.

Oh yeah...I still need to paint the console parts!

stock fuel pump push rod ? or have you up graded to a hardened one ?  Newer Cams are harder , to hard for stock fuel pump rods  . My 440 ate one .  I had to upgrade to a Hughes Hardened Fuel pump Rod  and also went to a magnetic drain plug for safety .   Ruined a motor fast  but it was visible on the bearing pretty quick  .  Plus the car would start intermittenly as the rod was so short .  

Hey, Stuart,
It is a stock pump pushrod. I haven't had any fuel related problems but then....I haven't been pushing the car real hard to reveal any weaknesses. I just thought that since everything else seemed fine, maybe it could be the pushrod.

The windage tray and pan are on. I used "The Right Stuff" sealant on each side of the gaskets. The bolts have red Locktite.

Someone suggested that I use a special racing oil with the additives already in rather than what I have been doing....using regular oil with the Comp Cams break in supplement.
Hey, I'm willing to take advice but I was quickly reminded why I've been doing it my way . Racing oil is expensive! Some at the Speed Shop were $15 a quart. Even the stuff I bought was $48 a gallon and this is a 6 quart pan. $72 for racing oil. For years, I've used conventional oil that I could get on sale for $22 for a 5 quart jug. Even adding in the $15 for the Comp Cams supplement, I'm under $50.
I did go ahead and use 10w30 Redline racing oil... :brickwall:

I left the drain plug UNpainted since the paint chips and flakes off each time I put a wrench on it.

i pushes it pretty hard that weekend  , we were at Martinville and got it going pretty fast on the track   

worth a check for sure  see if its shorter and cupped on top  

That pushrod...Holy crap!

I put some sound deadener matting on the transmission tunnel patch, then started installing the carpet.

I didn't have those thin aluminum strips that go at the bottom of the rear side panels so I just tucked the carpet underneath.

The old carpet was too short going up the firewall. I considered replacing it for years but needed a good reason. Now is the time.
See how short it is? It didn't even make it up to the HVAC unit or the steering column.

The carpet is plenty long enough now.

I was going to just clean the console and put it back in but nahhh....

I'll glue some type of plastic to the underside of that cracked area to keep the crack from spreading then repaint the console. Putting it back in the way it looks now would be like putting old, weathered bumpers back on after a fresh paint job.

The drive shaft came in today. S C O R E !
It is 3 1/2" in diameter and weighs 5 lbs more than the 3" one I had with the 727.

Fitting it into the trans was a small struggle. The yoke fits close to the rubber seal.

The old shaft rubbed against the edge of the right muffler when the axle extended.... like when going over a hill. I must have moved something because it looks like there is plenty of clearance with this bigger driveshaft.

I cleaned up the console, then took some ABS glue and stuck a section of plastic on the underside of the crack. I laid down three light coats of semi-flat black.

Carpet is done, sill plates are in and I decided to use the plastic grommet for the dimmer switch.

The console top plates were sprayed with 3 coats of base coat black and 3 coats of matte clear. The center sections that were woodgrain are now covered with black textured vinyl.

I've really enjoyed following along here. Nice job. I'm anxious for you to take that maiden voyage and hear your impressions.

Quote from: Q5XX29 on February 18, 2021, 02:59:57 AM
I've really enjoyed following along here. Nice job. I'm anxious for you to take that maiden voyage and hear your impressions.

Thank you. I'm getting close. I expect a few snags to pop up before everything is finished.
Right now, I have the clutch pedal pushrod adjusted so that the clutch and brake pedals are even. I need to bleed the clutch master cylinder and start the car up to see if the clutch pedal has enough travel. If it needs more, I'll adjust the pedal to sit higher. To get the brake pedal to match the clutch, I can pull the brake pedal pushrod to cut and extend it.
I have touched or moved several things along the way and I expect to see a leak or something that doesn't work. I've encountered some small obstacles so far and been able to work around them. It has taken longer than I expected but I have not been out there every day for 8 hours at a time.

Time to drive it!!!! haha

Yeah, I'm closing in on the finish line.

The console was assembled and installed. The forward console plate was adjusted as far forward as I could but the console door wouldn't close. I had to slot the mounting tabs of the console plate to get it to slide forward another 1/4".

I cleaned and reinstalled the left side fresh air vent, then cleaned and repainted the parking brake lever.
The wiring that was rerouted at the start of this project was connected to the "Brain Box" of the instrument cluster. The seats are in. I'm going to button up everything before bleeding the clutch and starting the car.

Woooo

I started it up today to see what works and what doesn't.
I had to rig a short wire to ground the neutral safety terminal on the relay. I did buy a MOPAR clutch safety switch from a vendor on ebay...
Ten bucks!

The turn signals and tach work, gauges too. I'll have to see if the speedometer is accurate once I get the car on the road.
I watched a few YouTube videos about bleeding the hydraulic clutch setup. I do have the Silver Sport instructions but I thought that maybe I could do it by myself like I've done with bleeding brakes.
Uhh, no.
The procedure of bleeding brakes has traditionally been to pump the pedal 3-5 times, open the bleeder, the pedal hits the floor, bleeder is closed and the process is repeated. With the clutch, the procedure is different. The bleeder is left open while the pedal is pressed, then when the pedal hits the floor, the bleeder gets closed. That is hard to do by myself!

I'll get the Wife to help me bleed the system tomorrow.
One thing though...I have no idea of what to aim for. What constitutes a "good pedal" feel? I know what a mechanical linkage setup feels like but I'm told that these are a LOT easier to operate and that the pedal effort is very low. I guess if I get to the point where the bubbles stop coming through, I'll start the car and see if I can get it into all gears.

The brake lights stay on. Surely just a matter of adjusting the brake light switch. The reverse lights work, at least the left one. The bulb was bad on the right side but even with a fresh bulb, it still is dead. Maybe there is something wrong with the right side wire?

Quote from: Kern Dog on February 20, 2021, 04:10:29 AM
The turn signals and tach work, gauges too. I'll have to see if the speedometer is accurate once I get the car on the road.
I watched a few YouTube videos about bleeding the hydraulic clutch setup. I do have the Silver Sport instructions but I thought that maybe I could do it by myself like I've done with bleeding brakes.
Uhh, no.
The procedure of bleeding brakes has traditionally been to pump the pedal 3-5 times, open the bleeder, the pedal hits the floor, bleeder is closed and the process is repeated. With the clutch, the procedure is different. The bleeder is left open while the pedal is pressed, then when the pedal hits the floor, the bleeder gets closed. That is hard to do by myself!

The original Keisler design had no bleeder.   The procedure was just to pump the hell out of it.   Unfortunately,  their in house master cylinder occasionally leaked air into the system so you'd be tooling around town and suddenly have no clutch!    So I'd be furiously pumping the GD pedal trying to get something where I could get into 1st and get out of the way of traffic.    Seemed heat related... So I tried dot 4 fluid, etc.  Nothing.      Ended up with wilwood clutch master and a different Keisler line with the bleeder which they never really admitted being faulty.      :shruggy:     

THat sounds pretty crappy.
It seems that there have been several refinements to this swap since Silver Sport took over.

Quote from: Kern Dog on February 20, 2021, 04:10:29 AM
The turn signals and tach work, gauges too. I'll have to see if the speedometer is accurate once I get the car on the road.
I watched a few YouTube videos about bleeding the hydraulic clutch setup. I do have the Silver Sport instructions but I thought that maybe I could do it by myself like I've done with bleeding brakes.
Uhh, no.
The procedure of bleeding brakes has traditionally been to pump the pedal 3-5 times, open the bleeder, the pedal hits the floor, bleeder is closed and the process is repeated. With the clutch, the procedure is different. The bleeder is left open while the pedal is pressed, then when the pedal hits the floor, the bleeder gets closed. That is hard to do by myself!

Kern dog,  I did end up stripping the teeth off one of the speedo pinions (if that is what they are called).  I do not know if that is what you are using.  They are readily available and I hav enot had to replace the second one, so I do not know why it went the first time.

Nice work! Looks great

Quote from: XH29N0G on February 20, 2021, 07:43:38 PM


Kern dog,  I did end up stripping the teeth off one of the speedo pinions (if that is what they are called).  I do not know if that is what you are using.  They are readily available and I hav enot had to replace the second one, so I do not know why it went the first time.

I must be lucky. The speedometer worked on the test drive!

Today was a great day. The Wife helped me bleed the clutch hydraulics. I had the car up off the ground a bit and with the engine running, I tried to run through the gears. It would get 1st, 3rd and reverse but nothing else. I figured that the clutch needed a bit more travel in the pedal so I extended the pushrod. Pedal feel is great but now the clutch pedal sits about an inch or so higher than the brake. I may or may not extend the brake pedal pushrod to get them to match.

With the pedal raised up, it gets all gears and engages about midway through the travel. There is still a gap between the clutch pedal lever and the under-dash framework where the "Up-Stop" bumper is placed.

If the clutch pushrod were adjusted to get the pedal lever closer to the dash, the pedal would be way too high. I suspect that the lever is welded too far down. No problem, I am going to use a suspension bumpstop cut down to fit.

People have stated that when they swapped in one of these Tremec transmissions and the hydraulic clutch, it felt like a totally different car.
They are not wrong.
What a huge difference. Not only are the shifting gates real close and tight, the clutch pedal feel is great. The pedal has some resistance but is not heavy. The shift gates will take some getting used to. It is easy to go from 2nd and hit 5th accidently.
At freeway speeds, the rpm reduction is matched with a reduction in vibration and overall noise. This alone makes the swap worthwhile. If you've ever driven a stiff geared car with a manual or automatic, you know that after a few miles, you start to feel fatigued and a bit frazzled. It is a matter of sensory overload from having noises and vibrations drilling into your brain.
Now, maybe some of the improved feel is because I now have a new transmission, new mounts, drive shaft/U-joints, new shifter, etc. The 727 had a modified crossmember and a mount that sat too low, probably causing some vibrations. The floor shifter was original with some slop in the bushings and linkage.
Driving at 70 mph in 5th feels so much better now. It is smooth.
The rpms at speed took a radical drop, as expected. The following is the comparison with the same 3.55 gearset:

60 mph: 2800 rpms VS 1650.
65 mph: 3000 rpms VS 1800.
70 mph: 3200 rpms VS 2000.
Fantastic!

To those contemplating something like this: Be smart and expect to spend money on UNforseen issues. It is tempting to make additional changes when the car is torn this far apart. Here is a list of the expenses that I had with the project.

* SST TKO-600 5 speed Tremec kit including transmission, Bellhousing, Pistol Grip lever, hydraulic throwout bearing, transmission mount and crossmember, clutch, pressure plate and flywheel, drive shaft and fluids......
$5978.
* Used center console top plates including an additional console door since the first set came with a door with broken mounting studs.
$280
* Harbor Freight blast cabinet and 2 bags of sand to sandblast the console parts and oil pan:
$260
* Paint to refinish console parts....? I bought basecoat black and matte clear but barely used any. I'll use the rest on other projects so I'm not going to include this in the total.
* JB weld for console top plate mods, vinyl contact paper for console center section:
$25
* Flywheel machine work....The center hole had to be machined oversize to clear the improperly machined hub on my Chinese crankshaft:
$60
*Dial indicator, one set .007 offset dowels, one set .014 dowels.
$140
* Carpet with mass backing:
$200
* UP-stop bumper and shipping...Oddly, I found the one included with the Silver Sport kit.
$12
* Windage tray, 2 oil pan gaskets, valve cover gaskets, valley pan and intake gaskets:
$220
*Racing oil:
$72.
*Fan belts, 4.
$70
* Engine and header paint:
*15
Grand total.....
$ 7312.
Now, this could have been done a bit cheaper if a few things were different. As I stated, unforeseen things do happen. The $60 on the flywheel machine work is something that shouldn't have happened. A stock crank or a properly machined aftermarket crank would have allowed me to skip that expense.
The console parts....I could have modified my original stuff but I set them aside for the other car, Jigsaw. I could have left the console parts and modifications off of this list. That stuff added up to $565.
I didn't have to replace the carpet but I wanted to. $200.
The dent in the oil pan gave me the excuse to pull the pan to repair. Thankfully, it helped me to discover the improper fitment of the plastic windage tray to the "shorter than stock" Milodon pan. $270 could have been saved if the pan sealed and wasn't dented.

Fantastic! Great to hear that everything turned out so well. I wish they would make a 5 (or 6) speed manual transmission that would stand up to my FHO 572 Hemi's output. I would rather have that than the GearVendors overdrive I'm using now. Which is just "ok", as you know.  Nice work... enjoy! Thanks for taking us along for the journey.

Man, those highway speed are nice!

Great job and thanks for the write up and details...should help others going forward with the same swap!

I couldn't tell in the pics, did you blackout the rear "vent" in the console?  I'd always wondered what that would look like. 

Quote from: TexasStroker on February 21, 2021, 04:21:49 AM


I couldn't tell in the pics, did you blackout the rear "vent" in the console?  I'd always wondered what that would look like. 

Yes, Sir....I painted the parts all black except for the light bezels on the side and the chrome strips that act as a border for the carpet on the sides.

A thread like this should be archived.  Great write-up and thanks for making the effort.  Thanks for posting all the real costs too.
             

Thank you.   :2thumbs:

Quote from: Kern Dog on February 18, 2021, 12:58:35 AM
The drive shaft came in today. S C O R E !
It is 3 1/2" in diameter and weighs 5 lbs more than the 3" one I had with the 727.

Fitting it into the trans was a small struggle. The yoke fits close to the rubber seal.

im worried your drive shaft is about an inch to long  , your rear end will travel and shaft should have more room to travel in and out   :Twocents:

nice write up looks great    

This car feels so smooth compared to before. I made several changes during this swap so I can't give all the credit to the transmission.
*I lashed the valves and set them a little tighter than before....LESS clatter from the solid lifters.
*New carpet....This carpet has a membrane to it that ACC calls "Mass Backing". It serves as a sound deadener. I did already have the floors covered in another brand but maybe the carpet took it further?
*Console is more secure since the fasteners are all in place and snug.
*Clutch and brake pedals have new bushings in the mounts.
*Headers have clearance dents to avoid contact with anything.
*No loose or sloppy A/T shift linkage.
*New drive shaft and U-joints.

I had grown used to the old car vibrations and noises. I didn't like them entirely but I am used to them.
That is one of the things about old cars. They do wear on you during the long drives. I have owned 2 "classic" Dodge trucks that were running & driving rigs. BOTH beat me up with shakes, vibrations, wind noises, engine smells and who knows what else. The Charger was never as bad as either truck but in each of the 4 long 1000 mile round trips, the one glaring memory is that I did feel a bit frazzled after a couple hundred miles in the seat. I never wanted to completely eliminate the old car feel though. If you wipe out all of the smells and sounds, you lose much of the feel of old car ownership. The Wife's '15 Challenger is an excellent road trip car but is sometimes way too quiet.

  
Denser carpet would make a real impact.  

The driveshaft/joints could make a big difference or very little.  Depends on the condition of the old stuff.  Same with the pedal bushings.  



I often wear earplugs on long road trips (even in newer cars).  And in movie theaters, hockey games, etc.  My hearing is fine so the plugs don't block out anything important.  They work more like a volume knob.    

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on February 21, 2021, 07:26:00 AM

A thread like this should be archived.  Great write-up and thanks for making the effort.  Thanks for posting all the real costs too.
             

What (Mike DC) said   good  write up with pictures & info etc , thanks for Sharing KD  :2thumbs: :cheers:

console top plates look awesome ! much much better than the woodgrain   IMO
woodgrain should of been for the SE option only !  not that im a fan of woodgrain

Thanks, TT.
The woodgrain looks right with a woodgrain steering wheel and dash trim. Otherwise, it seems out of place.

103 miles on it. The shift feel is still great though a bit tighter than any other manual trans that I have driven. I've only stalled it once and the Wife was in the car to see that. Driving on the freeway at 80 doing 2200-2300 rpms is great!
I weighed the car this morning. I didn't have the spare tire in the trunk so I'd need to weigh one and add that number to the total.
About 20 years ago, I weighed the car with the original 318-904-8.25 axle but with the Dart front disc brakes. 2 gallons of gas in it and it weighed 3660. A year later with the 440-727-8.75 and I was at 3751, again with 2 gallons of gas. The 440 swap gained only 89 lbs partly because I removed all the underhood A/C stuff.
A couple of years ago before changing the HVAC system, I weighed 3940. This is with frame connectors, torque boxes, bigger torsion bars, front and rear sway bars, extensive sound deadener, the 18" wheels and tires BUT with lighter front seats and lighter rear disc brakes. THIS time I had a full tank.
After the Classic Auto Air project, I was at an even 4000 lbs. This surprised me because the original under dash unit is double the size and weigh as the aftermarket unit and I switched to an aluminum water pump housing. It surprised me to see that I gained 60 lbs despite losing weight elsewhere.

Todays weight with the full tank but NO spare: 3980. What does a spare tire weigh? 40-50 lbs? I guess I'll weigh one and report back.
I thought that this swap could have resulted in a weight reduction until I started looking at the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate. The transmission itself weighs less than the 727. The drive shaft is 5 lbs heavier. This new carpet is heavier.
The 3660 and 3751 numbers are a bit deceptive. To compare to today's numbers, I have to add 17 gallons worth of gasoline weight. Gas weighs approx 6 lbs per gallon so I add 102 lbs to the totals.
3660= 3762
3751=3853.
When I went and learned the 3940 number in early 2018, I was surprised to see that it was so heavy. The difference in gasoline weight makes a big difference.

Hi Greg!
It has been a while, I hope you are doing well. I jumped back on here strictly to research this swap. I was pleasantly surprised to find your awesome write up. Thank you. Since it has been a little bit since you have done it... did you get the renewed love for your Charger that you were hoping for? Would you do it again?

Hey Johnny...The dude with the Duster wife, right?
Oh yeah...THis swap absolutely reinvigorated my interest in the car. I LOVE the way it runs and drives now. I'm still getting the hang of the 4-5 and 5-4 shifts.
I've gone from 2nd to 5th several times because the shift gates are so tight. I've downshifted from 5th and bumped reverse too. I've never engaged reverse then but it makes a grinding sound. I haven't driven a manual trans in years so I'm relearning as I go. During casual cruising, I do well. Its just that when I get amped up, I must be losing my senses and shift the lever too far or too short.
I have only stalled it twice and both times were with the wife. I was trying to take off smoothly and didn't apply enough throttle. That was the first day.
The cruising rpms dropped so much that at speed, it feels so much smoother than before. I can hear the engine hum but also hear the stereo. That is nice.
I'm not getting better mileage though because I'm on the throttle more....I like the rev up and down the engine makes with gear changes. It is a lot of fun. I suspect that on a long trip, the mileage would show an improvement.

Lol yes my wife had a Duster the last time I saw you. I am happy to hear that you are so enthusiastic about your Charger now. That is awesome! I have the tremec in my 2013 Challenger and have also been thinking about putting it in the Charger. I have installed the Barton self centering shifter for it. It is a huge improvement in my book. You may want to look into it. My rear is 4.10, so this may help on the highway....
I am surprised the transmission isn't locking you out of reverse once you are moving forward for safety. Mine won't allow it to get even close to it.

I love the Tremec in my Car.. I need to find some one that is ordering to offer the Pistol Grip from my Wagon.. Or someone that wants to trade a 4spd auto or 727 and Gear Vendors for my Tremec in my Wagon.

You're looking to convert the wagon BACK to an automatic?

Did the pistol grip shifter come with the kit or bought separately?

It was additional and NOT cheap.
Forum member Derwud has one he is looking to sell. He is a nice guy, he may work you a fair deal on it.

Quote from: Kern Dog on April 15, 2021, 12:34:48 PM
You're looking to convert the wagon BACK to an automatic?

Yeah, want to make more daily and wife friendly.. The Charger is for banging gears and taking beards..

Quote from: OzCharger69 on April 16, 2021, 03:55:20 PM
Did the pistol grip shifter come with the kit or bought separately?

It is an extra cost option.. I like my hands on balls, not pistol grips... (Sorry had to) I like traditional Shifters..

Quote from: Derwud on April 16, 2021, 09:00:48 PM

Quote from: OzCharger69 on April 16, 2021, 03:55:20 PM
Did the pistol grip shifter come with the kit or bought separately?

It is an extra cost option.. I like my hands on balls, not pistol grips... (Sorry had to) I like traditional Shifters..

Sent you a PM if you have one you're willing to sell

Quote from: Derwud on April 16, 2021, 08:58:48 PM

Quote from: Kern Dog on April 15, 2021, 12:34:48 PM
You're looking to convert the wagon BACK to an automatic?

Yeah, want to make more daily and wife friendly.. The Charger is for banging gears and taking beards..

I don't understand this part.

As the miles slowly rack up, sometime soon I'll be able to lean on the car harder. Since the first drive though, I've noticed that this transmission seems to be fine for easy and moderate shift action but I am sensing that it might not be so good for fast shifting. The 1-2 and 2-3 shifts still feel a bit stiff compared to what I would expect. I keep thinking that it will loosen up a bit. Maybe it will.

Quote from: Kern Dog on April 24, 2021, 05:22:51 AM
As the miles slowly rack up, sometime soon I'll be able to lean on the car harder. Since the first drive though, I've noticed that this transmission seems to be fine for easy and moderate shift action but I am sensing that it might not be so good for fast shifting. The 1-2 and 2-3 shifts still feel a bit stiff compared to what I would expect. I keep thinking that it will loosen up a bit. Maybe it will.

Stock Tremec TKO will "loosen up" after approx 250-500 miles assuming you dialed in the bellhousing properly, but a quick 2-3 shift will require a learning curve on your behalf as to how much you can shove down the ol' girls throat, one of the reasons why I recommended upgrading to carbon synchro's when you mentioned a possible TKO purchase some time ago, there's also a host of shift kits, syncros, cone mods, and shifter housings from other manufactures as well, if you truly want a speed shifting gear banger then faceplating a TKO is required, but that's a full bore "race" piece that requires some mastering and tolerance for street use

I went with pretty much the exact same kit, just for a '69.  Non-pistol grip, non console.  Installed it September of '19.  I've been pretty happy with mine, with the only real complaint, is clutch chatter when pulling it into the garage.  Not sure if it's their dual friction version clutch and if their regular organic setup would fix it.  I did go with the carbon upgrade on the trans and think it helps, but nothing to compare it to.  I do wish the shifter handle was an inch or 1.5 inches back more.  Some day I may heat it up with a torch and then have it rechromed. I had just bought new carpet and installed it, so I had a hole where an original 4-speed shifter sits.  Wasn't going to throw away brand new carpet, so, I modded an original boot ring with bad chrome, and used some shelf liner and the provided SS-T emblem to create my own "bezel" look that sort of goes with the factory SE woodgrain dash. The glitter knob came from Twisted Shifterz.

It makes me smile thinking of how much more enjoyable that this car is compared to when I thought I "finished" it in 2004. The years go by and I find new things to tinker with, new things that improve drivability. Sound deadening matting makes a huge difference. A working heater is a great thing too. This transmission makes the car more fun, more comfortable and I love the sounds of the engine during all the shifts!

Quote from: igozumn on May 03, 2021, 10:25:23 PM
I went with pretty much the exact same kit, just for a '69.  Non-pistol grip, non console.  Installed it September of '19.  I've been pretty happy with mine, with the only real complaint, is clutch chatter when pulling it into the garage.  Not sure if it's their dual friction version clutch and if their regular organic setup would fix it.  I did go with the carbon upgrade on the trans and think it helps, but nothing to compare it to.  I do wish the shifter handle was an inch or 1.5 inches back more.  Some day I may heat it up with a torch and then have it rechromed. I had just bought new carpet and installed it, so I had a hole where an original 4-speed shifter sits.  Wasn't going to throw away brand new carpet, so, I modded an original boot ring with bad chrome, and used some shelf liner and the provided SS-T emblem to create my own "bezel" look that sort of goes with the factory SE woodgrain dash. The glitter knob came from Twisted Shifterz.

love the glitter knob , reminds me of an old set of klackers i had in the 70's   :2thumbs:

Quote from: Kern Dog on April 14, 2021, 02:13:26 PM

Oh yeah...THis swap absolutely reinvigorated my interest in the car. I LOVE the way it runs and drives now. I'm still getting the hang of the 4-5 and 5-4 shifts.

The cruising rpms dropped so much that at speed, it feels so much smoother than before.

You're running 3.55 gears, and .64 fifth, right?  How do you like the 4-5 rpm spread?  I'm contemplating the .81 fifth so the rpm drops are even, and there's not a big jump in rpm if I have to downshift.

I do have 3.55s and the .64 overdrive. To me, it is an excellent choice. The engine makes so much torque, it even pulls in fifth gear at 70 mph. The other gear ratios seem just right too. I really am pleased with the whole setup.

Quote from: igozumn on May 03, 2021, 10:25:23 PM
I went with pretty much the exact same kit, just for a '69.  Non-pistol grip, non console.  Installed it September of '19.  I've been pretty happy with mine, with the only real complaint, is clutch chatter when pulling it into the garage.  Not sure if it's their dual friction version clutch and if their regular organic setup would fix it.  I did go with the carbon upgrade on the trans and think it helps, but nothing to compare it to.  I do wish the shifter handle was an inch or 1.5 inches back more.  Some day I may heat it up with a torch and then have it rechromed. I had just bought new carpet and installed it, so I had a hole where an original 4-speed shifter sits.  Wasn't going to throw away brand new carpet, so, I modded an original boot ring with bad chrome, and used some shelf liner and the provided SS-T emblem to create my own "bezel" look that sort of goes with the factory SE woodgrain dash. The glitter knob came from Twisted Shifterz.

Does the shifter handle say anything on it?  Is it a Silversport handle, or Hurst?

Kern, do you know if your Pistol Grip is unique to this transmission, or is it from another application?

That I do not know. I suspect that the handle is not stock for a '70 model below the boot. Above it, it looks the same. There is an adapter that connects to the stub on the transmission itself.

DC 5 206 ZZ.jpg

From the How to do a 4 speed swap...with pictures! sticky, the stock shifter is unmistakable, and the E-Body, late B-Body one, which mounts at the back of the tailhousing, is a short, stubby handle, so does this make it a custom shifter?  SST and American Powertrain are rather vague in answering questions, and their websites don't show much.

(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=95764.0;attach=278673;image)

I think the 5 speed version actually is different. Look at how it lacks that bend at the bottom, essentially the offset that allows it to be mounted to the side of the transmission rather than the top.

SST 2 (3).jpeg

Piss tull (2).jpg 

with my viper six speed i just bought a 71-74 B body shifter handle  ,  got the six speed top insert , Carbon fiber grips and a Hurst shift tower off Ebay  .  They make a ton of dfferent long throw or short throw towers that mount up to stock shifter handles .  

 :drool5:

Looks good.   :2thumbs:

i got the short throw close ratio , works great for me 

Quote from: 375instroke on April 01, 2022, 06:08:04 PMDoes the shifter handle say anything on it?  Is it a Silversport handle, or Hurst?

Silversport handle.  Plain.  No wording or logo on it.

KD,
I just bought (this week) an early version of your transmission, made by Keisler. A facebook friend mentioned 2 years ago that he wanted to go with a T56 Magnum, so I told him to let me know when he wanted to sell. I saw him post on Sunday that he had pulled the TKO to begin prepping for the T56, so I immediately messaged him. I ended up buying his TKO transmission, Lakewood SFI bell housing (Small block), shifter, transmission crossmember, and slave cylinder. It should arrive Monday. I'm excited to do the same swap and not have to cut up the tunnel/firewall for once!!!

A few things.  Verify that it has the step cut out of the tail shaft (like where the chain is going on the picture Kern Dog posted in post #275.  If it is not there, you may want to consider having it added.  The TKO I had did not have the step and I asked the folks at SST if they would cut it and they were willing to do this. For me, it mattered to make sure the driveline angles were correct.

The other thing that makes a difference with these is the shifter (and the springs in it). Mine had one shifter and I ended up getting another one installed by SST.  It was better, but still not quite what I wanted, so I changed up the springs to stiffen it and center it a little differently.

I like the transmission, but I also know there are differences between the kits with the fit and the shifters and it is worth going into this with that information. 

Here is the one i bought. It doesn't have the step cutout. It was also from an ebody so the shifter will need reconfigured.

(https://i.imgur.com/YUbFE4yh.jpg)

The early versions of this Tremec had some problems with the 2-3 shift if I recall. There are remedies but just be aware that it may not shift like you'd expect.
The only gripe that I have is high rpm shifting. I have to let the revs come down sometimes before the next gear will engage.

Yeah. I've heard that they aren't the smoothest or good above 4500rpm. But for $1500 I'm willing to try it out.

Mine is excellent under normal driving. It is also great even if I shift under 6000 rpms but above that, it acts as if the gate to 2nd gear is just blocked. The shifter won't move into the gate.

A few thoughts. 

I was not able to get the driveline angles correct until I had the notch in the tailshaft (which SST was willing to do).  I also had to modify the tunnel a little in the front because.  it was hitting there.  I believe there is another way without the notch, and that is to cut and modify the crossmember that holds the torsion bars.  I had vibration until I had the driveline angles set up correctly. 

My 2-3 shift improved when the shifter was changed by SST.

I also had to learn to shift the 5 speed because my habit was to push the shifter right (4 speed) and with this one, that would pop it over to the gate between 3 and 5.  pushing the shifter straight up works and works well for me with stiffer centering springs. 

I would be interested to hear if there is other technology with the newer models that makes it so pushing it right and up from 2nd does not move it right of 3rd into the gate or into 5th.

I didn't have much experience with Mopar 4 speeds so I just shifted by instinct. I often accidently went from 2nd to 5th with this one.

  
The 2nd-to-5th goof is easy enough to do with a lot of modern transmissions.  

I think at least part of the reason for the TKO's rep (on that issue), is because of musclecar guys coming from 1960s 4spds.  With the old ones you had to make a big deliberate right/left movement when changing between the columns.   Once manuals started having 5+ gears it became normal to have the columns more laterally bunched-up. 

Quote from: 70B5Cuda on April 15, 2022, 09:27:37 PM
Here is the one i bought. It doesn't have the step cutout. It was also from an ebody so the shifter will need reconfigured.

(https://i.imgur.com/YUbFE4yh.jpg)

Goin to be selling the same set-up soon..

Quote from: Kern Dog on January 22, 2021, 12:24:12 AM
I lifted the car up so I could measure for the drive shaft. For years, everyone I have dealt with says to measure for the shaft with the car resting on it's own weight. I measured the distance with the tires hanging, then put the car on screw jacks with the car barely off of the lift pads...

The drive shaft was 58 9/16" at full droop. Care to guess the difference with the car on the jacks?

It was the SAME!
Crazy, huh? It didn't change but maybe 1/32 of an inch. SST was clear about measuring the "right way". Everyone is.
Maybe mine didn't change because I have less suspension travel? I have MP 440/Hemi springs and a rear sway bar. The bar does limit downward axle travel a bit but this was an interesting discovery.

I was overanalyzing this, too.  Driveshaft moves in a larger arc than the differential, it angles downward from the transmission, and the diff mounts to the leafs below the front spring eye, but I guess it's Chrysler engineers designing everything close enough to make things perfect in the end.  My measurements:

Suspension height	Trans to Diff length
-2"	58-1/4"
-1"	58-1/4"
0"	58-1/4"
+1"	58-1/4"
+2"	58-1/4"
+3"	58-1/4"
+4"	58-1/16"

I was surprised too.

Everything is still doing well.
I had the engine out last Summer for a rebuild and while it was all apart, I had to re-verify the bellhousing runout.
That is the part of the 727 to 5 speed swap that I had the hardest time doing.

BUMP for those dudes wanting to read up on this swap.
STILL loving it and currently I am helping a friend install a TKX in a 69 Coronet.