DodgeCharger.com Forum

Mopar Garage => Engine, Transmission, Rearend, & Exhaust => Topic started by: firefighter3931 on January 05, 2009, 10:41:34 PM

Title: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: firefighter3931 on January 05, 2009, 10:41:34 PM
Just thought i'd throw this info up to illustrate the effectiveness of blocking the cylinder head heat crossover and insulating the base of the carburator. These questions often come up so here's a little data to chew on.  ;)

Background : Recently i helped a buddy fire up a new engine build and break in the cam. When he was assembling the engine i recommended the Felpro 1215 intake gasket which blocks off the heat crossover and a carb spacer or thick base gasket. Denis installed the 1215 valley pan and a 1/2in spacer. During the breakin i measured temps in several locations to make sure there were no issues. The infrared heat gun is an excellent tool to help monitor EGT's as well as other vital points of interest during the breakin.


On to the pertinent data. While breaking in the cam & fresh engine i took several readings of the engine at different locations and at different times during the breakin period. Worth noting are 3 different temp readings from the top end of the engine :

(1) cylinder head surface temp : 231*F
(2) Intake manifold surface temp : 198*F
(3) Carb main body surface temp : 129* F

* This particular build has iron heads and an iron intake manifold


These readings were all taken at the same point in time....literally seconds apart. From the data it looks like the heat crossover block off is worth a 30* reduction. A further reduction of 70* was achieved with the phenolic spacer.  :icon_smile_big:

So, the  two mods together offer a combined reduction of 100* in temperature. Given the poor quality fuel available these days and the fact that this fuel is designed for high pressure (EFI) fuel systems....these are certainly worthwhile modifications.  :2thumbs: Cooler fuel makes more power and is less prone to vapor lock/fuel boiling  :yesnod:



Ron
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Steve P. on January 05, 2009, 11:00:21 PM
Yet another great tip from our resident smart guy....   I think we should sticky this and the motor mount fix... Not to mention about 3000 other great tips...   :yesnod:
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 69chargerR/T on January 05, 2009, 11:09:12 PM
Thats good info Ron :2thumbs: I have the 1215 intake gasket I'm going to put on when I do my cam swap. I don't have room for a carb spacer with the rpm intake, but I use a thick carb gasket. Alan



     PS. How come I don't see any of your engines in the proven engine builds. I'd like to see your builds :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Sublime/Sixpack on January 06, 2009, 12:07:43 AM
I can understand the benifits of blocking off the crossover, but don't you need the crossover open for proper choke operation? Or am I not thinking through this correctly.
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: flyinlow on January 06, 2009, 12:30:12 AM
That's more temperature drop than I would have guessed for the insulator. Definitely great bang for the buck HP. 

What was temperature that day?

Thanks for the info,

Craig
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: flyinlow on January 06, 2009, 12:32:44 AM
Hey Ron,

How much Heat do Firemans coats insulate you from?
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Ghoste on January 06, 2009, 05:08:07 AM
Quote from: Sublime/Sixpack on January 06, 2009, 12:07:43 AM
I can understand the benifits of blocking off the crossover, but don't you need the crossover open for proper choke operation? Or am I not thinking through this correctly.

Not so much for choke operation as choke assist and emmissions.  The idea of the heat crossover was to get heat under the plenum of the intake and reduce fuel puddling and get everything atomizing better.  This sound fine except for a few key points.  First, the quality of modern fuels as Ron mentioned; they boil too quickly and make the crossover contribute mightily to vapor lock.  Second, one of the reasons for crossovers as you noticed was to help with cold weather operation, but it is cold weather operation from a large scale manufacturing compromise point of view.  These cars when new had to operate in Arizona and Alaska.  Drive your car much in the winter?  And I mean real winter.  Most of us, when we take these cars out it is rarely in freezing temps and when we take, it is seldom a jump in and throw it in "Drive" right away to get to work.  We let it warm up in the driveway for out afternoon cruise.  Lastly, the heat crossover robs power and many of us drive these cars for the feeling of power they have available.  Our compromise today has become one of better acceleration over less practical utility driving.
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Just 6T9 CHGR on January 06, 2009, 09:01:20 AM
Damn and to think I only used that block off valley pan so the paint wont burn off my freshly painted intake manifold ;)

PS---be sure to use the FelPro brand one that solidly blocks off the port....the Mopar Performance version uses the pan that is mfg'd with the hole open & they supply you with 2 hokey strips of metal to lay on top of the open holes :Twocents:
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: jerry on January 06, 2009, 09:22:12 AM
sounds good for some.i wouldn't try spacer blocks on a 69 1/2  6bbl car or a 70 charger six pack unless you plan on driving without hood . :2thumbs: for good info Ron. [just kidding around]
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Nacho-RT74 on January 06, 2009, 09:48:36 AM
I do have the phenolic carb insulator because in fact rebuilt kits for TQ already carries them... but THERE IS NO WAY I will block the crossover...is great get the choke propperly working with the crossover help and electric choke control unit assistant. Just 4-6 minutes to get a nice iddle instead 10-12 minutes.

GREAT INFO THOUGH RON!!! :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: tan top on January 06, 2009, 09:52:22 AM
good info Ron  :yesnod:  100 degrees thats a lot  :o
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: FLG on January 06, 2009, 11:40:36 AM
Id be curious to see how the TQ carbs helped to lower temps even more considering their main bodies were a type of plastic  :shruggy:

Granted im not going to be running one in the finished engine (whenever that may be LOL), but i run one on my 400 and shes happy.
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: kamkuda on January 06, 2009, 12:15:33 PM
There is a local guy how was having some performance issues, including intake paint burning off. (the guy with the charger that we met at the Canadian Tire Cruise) This may be a help.
Thanks
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Sublime/Sixpack on January 06, 2009, 12:17:57 PM
It would be interesting to have a heat measuring gun like Ron is using.  I'm a curious type so I'd probably be checking the temp. of the various engine parts plus the brakes, transmission, u-joints, diff., etc.
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Steve P. on January 06, 2009, 03:57:29 PM
Try here:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0017L9Q9C?gclid=CNDL0LDp-pcCFQJvswod1HZYDg



I know discount auto and Auto Zone both sell them as well. 
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: John_Kunkel on January 06, 2009, 07:49:52 PM

I'd like to see comparative numbers with the identical setup only with the crossover open.
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Sublime/Sixpack on January 06, 2009, 08:27:53 PM
 :iagree:
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Sublime/Sixpack on January 06, 2009, 08:30:12 PM
Quote from: Steve P. on January 06, 2009, 03:57:29 PM
Try here:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0017L9Q9C?gclid=CNDL0LDp-pcCFQJvswod1HZYDg



I know discount auto and Auto Zone both sell them as well. 

Thanks Steve, I was expecting them to be more costly. Think I'll use some of my Christmas money for one. :thumbs:
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: firefighter3931 on January 06, 2009, 10:45:03 PM
Quote from: 69chargerR/T on January 05, 2009, 11:09:12 PM

PS. How come I don't see any of your engines in the proven engine builds. I'd like to see your builds :2thumbs:



Alan, i had a 4 page writeup on the 446 on the old D-C.com but it vanished when that board folded up. I should repost it sometime.  :yesnod:


Quote from: Sublime/Sixpack on January 06, 2009, 12:07:43 AM
I can understand the benifits of blocking off the crossover, but don't you need the crossover open for proper choke operation? Or am I not thinking through this correctly.


The choke will still work....it will just take longer to close. Honestly, this engine didn't take any effort to fire...and it reached operating temp quickly even in the unheated garage with a blizzard raging outside.  :lol:



Quote from: flyinlow on January 06, 2009, 12:30:12 AM
What was temperature that day?

Craig


Craig, it was cold out that day.....15in of snow fell while we were working on that car. I almost didn't make it home, lol ! Had to make an emergency pit-stop at Home Depot for some sandbags to help with some "high-tech" traction control on the 2wd 1/2 ton Ram.  :icon_smile_big:


Quote from: flyinlow on January 06, 2009, 12:32:44 AM
Hey Ron,

How much Heat do Firemans coats insulate you from?


The bunker suits work extremely good....they are flashover rated to 3500*F (NFPA rating) and i have been in live training with interior burnhouse temps exceeding 600*F. Trust me....600* is plenty !  :o


Quote from: Ghoste on January 06, 2009, 05:08:07 AM

Not so much for choke operation as choke assist and emmissions.  The idea of the heat crossover was to get heat under the plenum of the intake and reduce fuel puddling and get everything atomizing better.  This sound fine except for a few key points.  First, the quality of modern fuels as Ron mentioned; they boil too quickly and make the crossover contribute mightily to vapor lock.  Second, one of the reasons for crossovers as you noticed was to help with cold weather operation, but it is cold weather operation from a large scale manufacturing compromise point of view.  These cars when new had to operate in Arizona and Alaska.  Drive your car much in the winter?  And I mean real winter.  Most of us, when we take these cars out it is rarely in freezing temps and when we take, it is seldom a jump in and throw it in "Drive" right away to get to work.  We let it warm up in the driveway for out afternoon cruise.  Lastly, the heat crossover robs power and many of us drive these cars for the feeling of power they have available.  Our compromise today has become one of better acceleration over less practical utility driving.


That pretty much sums it up...well said Ghoste !  :2thumbs:


Quote from: NOT Just 6T9 CHGR on January 06, 2009, 09:01:20 AM
Damn and to think I only used that block off valley pan so the paint wont burn off my freshly painted intake manifold ;)



It sure doesn't appear that blocking off the crossover hurt the looks (manifold paint) or performance (low 13's on street tires) of your car Chris.  ;)


Quote from: kamkuda on January 06, 2009, 12:15:33 PM
There is a local guy how was having some performance issues, including intake paint burning off. (the guy with the charger that we met at the Canadian Tire Cruise) This may be a help.
Thanks


I remember that sweet looking Charger ! Pass this info along to him Rob....it will help for sure !  :yesnod:


Quote from: Sublime/Sixpack on January 06, 2009, 12:17:57 PM
It would be interesting to have a heat measuring gun like Ron is using.  I'm a curious type so I'd probably be checking the temp. of the various engine parts plus the brakes, transmission, u-joints, diff., etc.


Yes the heat gun is an excellent tuning tool. I like to look at temps at different locations on the block which could indicate a potential issue with the cooling system. Hot spots might indicate an air pocket in the cooling system. I also like to keep an eye on the header/ex manifold temps for signs of lean carb or timing issues. Radiator efficiency can also be guaged by comparing temps at the inlet & outlet to see how well things are working.


Quote from: John_Kunkel on January 06, 2009, 07:49:52 PM

I'd like to see comparative numbers with the identical setup only with the crossover open.


I'll have to check that sometime John....most guys i know run the 1215 valley pan or aluminum heads that have no crossover provision.



Ron
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Sublime/Sixpack on January 06, 2009, 11:53:01 PM
The taking longer for the choke to open is what concerned me. The choke pull off works but still . . . .
Title: Re: Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Nacho-RT74 on January 07, 2009, 10:10:48 AM
if your choke coil is wired you can mount an electrick choke asistant to help, they float on ebay quite often... BUT IMHO still in that way

this is single stage control... sending just one voltage stage. they are theorically for SBs
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-1974-Choke-NOS-MoPar-Runner-Cuda-Challenger-Dart_W0QQitemZ140270538372QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item140270538372&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A727|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-1974-Choke-NOS-MoPar-Runner-Cuda-Challenger-Dart_W0QQitemZ140270538372QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item140270538372&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A727%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)

double stages are supposelly for BBs and send two diff voltages depending of engine bay temp variation. Is the same piece but with a ballast on it.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Chryco Psycho on May 25, 2012, 11:58:24 AM
Ron do you have comparative #s with an Alum intake ?
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Silver R/T on June 22, 2012, 05:34:18 PM
Good info, thanks for posting
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: ACUDANUT on June 22, 2012, 05:39:23 PM
What, no pic's of these ? :brickwall:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: bakerhillpins on August 07, 2012, 07:58:10 PM
About to order the parts for the crossover block off and the insulating spacer and have a few questions. I have a 69 RT, auto with AC, OEM intake and 4640sa carb.

Of the 3 Edelbrock Heat Insulator Gaskets (9265/9266/9267) that I see at Summit I wonder which is more appropriate for a stock 69 iron intake?
I see that the 9267 is for the dual quads but I figured I could just use one or both under the Carter AVS for my application?  :shruggy:

I recall reading in the myriad of thread hits I got in searches that getting a 4 hole gasket (67) would give faster throttle response (and more manifold vacuum?) and the open center (65) would help on top end?  Do I have that correct as I can't seem to find that thread again.  :brickwall:

With regard to the Fel-Pro Q1215 block off gasket I understand that it isn't necessary to use the supplied gaskets with the stock parts unless they have been surfaced? And that each pathway should rather be sealed with a copper based RTV?


If I remember I can probably borrow the IR temp meter from the office and get before/after temps.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Troy on August 08, 2012, 01:43:14 PM
For example... as far as I can tell, my Six Pack was boiling the fuel in the carbs and/or line. The paint on the intake was brown and flaking in the middle on the passenger side (where that heat port is). On a Six Pack the coil is mounted in almost that exact spot so I figured I may have had a fuel AND ignition problem. I have an infrared temp gauge so I shot a few areas when the car was warm and running in my garage. I don't have the exact numbers with me but the gauge only reads up to 230 degrees and it was going off the scale in most areas from the middle to the back on the passenger side. The driver's side was warm - but not nearly as hot. I had the car apart a few weeks ago so I took the opportunity to install a 1215 valley pan. I used copper on the sides and gray/silver RTV on the ends and corners. I warmed the car up and shot it with the gauge. It didn't have any readings off the scale on any part of the intake. Temperatures in the area of the heat port were near 175 degrees and the front was below 160 degrees. I didn't pay too much attention to the back because I had the air cleaner off and I know it will hold the heat in and my numbers would be skewed. I'll need to dig up my original numbers and map them against the new data in the exact same location but, at first glance, blocking that port should make my car a lot happier! The choke still works too...

Troy
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: AmadeusCharger500 on August 14, 2012, 07:09:37 AM
Great topic and new reason to buy a cool tool.

Anyone ever notice how your car don't run as good when its really hot out? I think this relates to this very issue. The more cool air we can get into these carbs the better. (Once up to operating temp that is)

I'm working on a way to vent air to the cleaner from the front of the car. Anyone have designs for this type of mod?
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Ghoste on August 14, 2012, 07:27:32 AM
I've seen kits for that type of thing similar to what they used on the 442 Olds or Ford Thunderbolts.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: drifter69 on August 16, 2012, 03:35:27 PM
So I have also been boiling off fuel in my quick fuel 850, I can watch it in the site glass on the side. Problem is...... I am running a RPM manifold and a drop base K&N filer and there is not enough room for a spacer to cool things off. Any ideas?.........or I am looking for a hood with a sixpack scoop. I did not want to do that and do not want to use a flater manifold. Anybody get around this yet without changing out your hood. :shruggy:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: jlatessa on August 25, 2012, 08:38:24 AM
On the same vein, our six-pack will have minimal hood clearance as-is, I'm wondering 
what is the BEST insulator if we have to use a thin one under the carbs.

I've already used the blocked-off valley pan and am going to purchase
a temp. sensor gun.  Car hasn't been fired yet.

As an aside, I need to borrow/buy non-highperf exhaust manifolds to break-in our cam
and save the finish on our headers.
This for a 440 Charger, Cleveland, Ohio area.

Thanks, Joe :cheers:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: flyinlow on August 25, 2012, 06:11:28 PM
Quote from: AmadeusCharger500 on August 14, 2012, 07:09:37 AM
I'm working on a way to vent air to the cleaner from the front of the car. Anyone have designs for this type of mod?





Like the 442,except I went thru the radiator support . Easier on 3rd gens I think and my battery is trunk mounted. Two 4 inch intake tubes and the filter box holds a 14X4 K&N filter.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: flyinlow on August 25, 2012, 06:28:47 PM
Quote from: jlatessa on August 25, 2012, 08:38:24 AM
As an aside, I need to borrow/buy non-highperf exhaust manifolds to break-in our cam
and save the finish on our headers.
This for a 440 Charger, Cleveland, Ohio area.

Thanks, Joe :cheers:




If you cant find some in Cleveland , I have a set of log style manifolds. Near Columbus. P.M. me .
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: richRTSE on October 13, 2012, 01:40:37 PM
Quote from: drifter69 on August 16, 2012, 03:35:27 PM
So I have also been boiling off fuel in my quick fuel 850, I can watch it in the site glass on the side. Problem is...... I am running a RPM manifold and a drop base K&N filer and there is not enough room for a spacer to cool things off. Any ideas?.........or I am looking for a hood with a sixpack scoop. I did not want to do that and do not want to use a flater manifold. Anybody get around this yet without changing out your hood. :shruggy:

maybe Ron can answer this himself, but I thought he said he added some spacers between the k-member and the frame rails to get a little more hood clearance on his 68...
:scratchchin:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: oldschool on October 13, 2012, 02:04:00 PM
Quote from: drifter69 on August 16, 2012, 03:35:27 PM
So I have also been boiling off fuel in my quick fuel 850, I can watch it in the site glass on the side. Problem is...... I am running a RPM manifold and a drop base K&N filer and there is not enough room for a spacer to cool things off. Any ideas?.........or I am looking for a hood with a sixpack scoop. I did not want to do that and do not want to use a flater manifold. Anybody get around this yet without changing out your hood. :shruggy:
i mill down the carb flange, 1/2". then i use a 1/2" birchwood spacer from AED.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Steve P. on October 13, 2012, 02:17:27 PM
Milling the manifold is a good option if your manifold has deep enough bosses to drill and thread deep enough for carb studs. I like this option.

I know more than a few people using 1" spacers between the frame and "K" member without issues. Some for many years now with no issues. I have to admit that I thought it could be a problem for the torsion bars, but I have never heard of anyone breaking one due to lowering the "K". 
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 18, 2013, 12:34:54 PM
I'm running an Edelbrock performer RPM intake and an 850 Edelbrock carb and I think I'm boiling my fuel as well. I too have the problem of clearance if I install a spacer but my car runs fine for 15-20 mins then wants to stall?
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Big Sugar on April 18, 2013, 04:23:59 PM
Good start Marc
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: firefighter3931 on April 18, 2013, 04:50:44 PM
Quote from: RIDELIKEHELL on April 18, 2013, 12:34:54 PM
I'm running an Edelbrock performer RPM intake and an 850 Edelbrock carb and I think I'm boiling my fuel as well. I too have the problem of clearance if I install a spacer but my car runs fine for 15-20 mins then wants to stall?

Install a carb base insulating gasket and i bet your issues will disappear  ;)

Make sure your fuel lines are not coming into contact with any hot surfaces such as the block and/or heater hoses.  :yesnod:


Ron
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 18, 2013, 08:25:56 PM
Thank you Ron !
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 19, 2013, 06:35:38 AM
so this....

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-9265/overview/
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Dino on April 19, 2013, 06:39:38 AM
The thicker the better but I guess you can't go much more with the setup you have.  Do you have the heat crossover blocked?  That solved my hot starting issues and I don't have a spacer on my carb, just a gasket.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 19, 2013, 06:48:03 AM
May sound stupid but I'm not sure Dino...waiting to hear from Shawn as I had bigger fish to fry during the resto  :lol:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Dino on April 19, 2013, 06:49:54 AM
Quote from: RIDELIKEHELL on April 19, 2013, 06:48:03 AM
May sound stupid but I'm not sure Dino...waiting to hear from Shawn as I had bigger fish to fry during the resto  :lol:

Heck yeah!  There's so much going on with a resto you can't be sure of everything.  I know that feeling!

If the crossover is not blocked, you'll need the Felpro 1215 kit and a tube of permatex ultra copper.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 19, 2013, 08:16:36 AM
Not sure but looks to me like the heads don't have a heat crossover port?
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: firefighter3931 on April 19, 2013, 08:32:58 AM
Marc, the aluminum RPM heads do not have a heat crossover so you can use the std (or) 1215 intake gasket....doesn't make a difference one way or the other  ;)

That base gasket you linked to above will work fine.  :yesnod:

The issue is with "conductive" heat....heat that is transferred from the heads to the manifold directly. The insulating gasket will prevent this form of heat transfer from occuring (from heads/manifold to carb) allthough radiant heat will still be present.

My original testing with the Infrared gun showed significant reductions in carb temps by simply insulating the carb. The ethanol fuel used these days is prone to boiling and is really designed for fuel injection systems that operate under high pressure....in many cases 45psi or more.  :P

It might be worth considering trying some Shell 91 octane V-power fuel which does not have any ethanol added. If it doesn't ping you're good to go.

Let us know how it turns out


Ron
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Dino on April 19, 2013, 08:38:32 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on April 19, 2013, 08:32:58 AM
Marc, the aluminum RPM heads do not have a heat crossover so you can use the std (or) 1215 intake gasket....doesn't make a difference one way or the other  ;)

That base gasket you linked to above will work fine.  :yesnod:

The issue is with "conductive" heat....heat that is transferred from the heads to the manifold directly. The insulating gasket will prevent this form of heat transfer from occuring (from heads/manifold to carb) allthough radiant heat will still be present.

My original testing with the Infrared gun showed significant reductions in carb temps by simply insulating the carb. The ethanol fuel used these days is prone to boiling and is really designed for fuel injection systems that operate under high pressure....in many cases 45psi or more.  :P

It might be worth considering trying some Shell 91 octane V-power fuel which does not have any ethanol added. If it doesn't ping you're good to go.

Let us know how it turns out


Ron

Shell 91 octane V-power fuel?  I wonder if I can get that in Michigan...
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 19, 2013, 08:49:11 AM
Funny enough I am running Sunoco Ultra 94(Petro Canada) but I work at Shell Refinery here in Sarnia  :lol: I actually test the finished product...I am going to try that gasket and go from there...thx so much Ron  :2thumbs: Hence  my vanity plates    
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: firefighter3931 on April 19, 2013, 09:03:34 AM
Well seeing as you work for Shell....maybe you can convince management to use your ride as a test bed for their V-power fuel  ;)  I figure 500 Gallons should be sufficient  :lol:

Cool vanity plate....seems appropriate for the car and your occupation.  :icon_smile_big:


Ron
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 19, 2013, 09:11:28 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on April 19, 2013, 09:03:34 AM
Well seeing as you work for Shell....maybe you can convince management to use your ride as a test bed for their V-power fuel  ;)  I figure 500 Gallons should be sufficient  :lol:

Cool vanity plate....seems appropriate for the car and your occupation.  :icon_smile_big:


Ron

Since Royal dutch took over Shell Canada we get "F" all free....They used to throw us a Gas Voucher once and a while but they must figure we make enough $ already
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 19, 2013, 09:58:59 AM
Should I go with the divided type like this or the open one....Shawn seems to think the open one could cause swirling???
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: bakerhillpins on April 19, 2013, 10:17:39 AM
Quote from: RIDELIKEHELL on April 19, 2013, 09:58:59 AM
Should I go with the divided type like this or the open one....Shawn seems to think the open one could cause swirling???

I found the same info online but it was in so many words and not directly stated so I am interested in Ron's thoughts on that as well. :popcrn:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: firefighter3931 on April 19, 2013, 10:44:45 AM
Open is fine.....i've run 1in open spacers on dual plane intake manifolds in the past with zero problems related to fuel distribution.  ;)

Most "performance" dual planes (RPM/CH4B) will have the divider partially milled down. This actually helps with fuel distribution and allows both banks of the engine to use all 4 venturies of the carb. The base insulating gasket will accomplish the same thing as an open spacer but to a lesser degree because it is thinner.  :yesnod:

The only application i can see using that divided spacer would be on a stock manifold which is something I would never use  :P


Ron
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 19, 2013, 10:55:23 AM
You mean I actually asked a good question  ;) A wealth of knowledge as always Ron  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: firefighter3931 on April 19, 2013, 12:02:25 PM
Quote from: RIDELIKEHELL on April 19, 2013, 10:55:23 AM
You mean I actually asked a good question  ;) A wealth of knowledge as always Ron  :2thumbs:

Yep certainly a good question  :2thumbs:

When you pull the carb have a look  :scope: at the divider in your manifold and you'll see why the divided spacer/gasket will have no effect on fuel distribution.  ;)

The designer(s) of those performance dual planes did that for a reason.  :yesnod:



Ron

Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 19, 2013, 12:31:20 PM
Just ordered the spacer from Summit  :2thumbs: I remember that about the intake actually when I opened the box back in 2010..thx again  hopefully I will tackle this next week after the parts come in  :cheers:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: bakerhillpins on April 19, 2013, 05:56:35 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on April 19, 2013, 10:44:45 AM
The only application i can see using that divided spacer would be on a stock manifold which is something I would never use  :P


Ron

Thanks for that Ron!   :cheers:  Since I have a stock manifold that would work for me then.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 20, 2013, 04:26:36 PM
Well I ordered the gasket yesterday from Summit Racing and got a notification it was in at my U.S. postal outlet so we went over and picked it up this afternoon  :yesnod: Also hit Autozone and after 5 minutes of going through air filters with my old one in hand I found a STP one that was same diameter but not as tall( a little over a 1/4"). So I am hoping that the extra height that adding the gasket will cause, the reduction in filter height will allow me to use my Mopar Performance Air Cleaner still. I don't have a lot of clearance nowto my hood and needed a base off of a coronet that Shawn had when he was building my car up. One reason I love living near the border is my quick access to parts  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Steve P. on April 20, 2013, 05:32:08 PM
Make sure you check your AIR CLEANER STUD height before you drop your hood.. We dented a hood from the inside once that way.. Rotten lesson at best....  :brickwall:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 20, 2013, 05:39:53 PM
Quote from: Steve P. on April 20, 2013, 05:32:08 PM
Make sure you check your AIR CLEANER STUD height before you drop your hood.. We dented a hood from the inside once that way.. Rotten lesson at best....  :brickwall:

:2thumbs: thx Steve
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 24, 2013, 12:56:08 PM
My Carb is an 800 CFM..oops...still haven't added the gasket  :rotz:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 27, 2013, 05:20:31 PM
My plugs

Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: firefighter3931 on April 28, 2013, 08:52:13 AM
Quote from: RIDELIKEHELL on April 27, 2013, 05:20:31 PM
My plugs





Marc,

Those are fouled pretty bad ! Time to replace....use an NGK  BCPR-6ES  :yesnod:

The carb and ignition need some tuning  :icon_smile_blackeye:


Ron
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on April 30, 2013, 05:55:52 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on April 28, 2013, 08:52:13 AM
Quote from: RIDELIKEHELL on April 27, 2013, 05:20:31 PM
My plugs






Marc,

Those are fouled pretty bad ! Time to replace....use an NGK  BCPR-6ES  :yesnod:

The carb and ignition need some tuning  :icon_smile_blackeye:


Ron









ot the new plugs installed last night but am waiting for my guys to come over thursday night to adjust the timing and carb...I'm new to this but am learniing   They also have a Holley Carb that I can use if need be which is nice.



Marc,







Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on June 05, 2013, 06:47:29 AM
Got the new Firecore Distributor & coil in with a ton of help from firefighter RON!!!! Didn't put the carb spacer in as I need to put in a new fuel line(it would be too short) but man does the car run nice now! Had a float stick in the carb while testing yesterday and we killed the battery trying to start it. Luckily we were a mile from my place and the wife came to the rescue and we boosting it. I put the trickle charger on it after we got it home till I went to bed. The motor only has 162 miles on it and has sat a lot over the winter and spring. Hopefully get out tonight and run her again! Here's a video of the idle  :2thumbs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o9gP42OEGU
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on June 05, 2013, 06:56:57 AM
 :cheers: The pic of the car is when it died  :lol:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: cougs on June 10, 2013, 10:31:04 PM
 :scratchchin:  I need to maintain carb functionality so I don't want to block my heat crossover.   Can a hole be drilled in the pan gasket to let "some" heat in so the choke operates but not so much that it boils the fuel?  Will it eventually just heat it up anyway causing locking issues?   About the only option i have because carb spacers screw up the choke linkage for me.   :shruggy:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on June 15, 2013, 02:31:16 PM
we got the carb spacer installed and will be road testing Monday at the earliest between work and family commitments there isn't  much  time lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIauNcB2NgE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: RIDELIKEHELL on June 19, 2013, 06:39:30 AM
Car is running great now!!!!

Here are my temps I took after a 30 minute drive

1) cylinder head surface temp : 228*F
(2) Intake manifold surface temp : 126*F
(3) Carb main body surface temp : 111* F
(4) Valley pan surface temp : 156* F

Mind you we live very close to Lake Huron and it was only 60* out last night around 6-7pm

:cheers:
RON IS THE MAN!!!!
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: bakerhillpins on June 19, 2013, 06:48:47 AM
 :2thumbs:  Great to hear!

I am going to force myself to go through the same over the next week. Going to take the carb with me over my vacation week and rebuild it and then do the valley pan/ spacer upgrade.

Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: bakerhillpins on August 04, 2013, 08:46:21 PM
Quote from: cougs on June 10, 2013, 10:31:04 PM
:scratchchin:  I need to maintain carb functionality so I don't want to block my heat crossover.   Can a hole be drilled in the pan gasket to let "some" heat in so the choke operates but not so much that it boils the fuel?  Will it eventually just heat it up anyway causing locking issues?   About the only option i have because carb spacers screw up the choke linkage for me.   :shruggy:

A tad late on a response but none the less. Several folks have drilled a hole in the crossover to allow some heat flow. I have heard folks say they have drilled a 1/8" to 3/8" hole.  If you have a stock thermal choke you should just be able to add the spacer and simply bend the arm on the choke to make it the correct height/length.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: jww426 on November 09, 2014, 10:01:36 AM
What carb spacers would you all recommend for the 426 hemi?
thanks
JWW
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: jww426 on November 09, 2014, 11:22:00 AM
Anyone recommend phenolic spacers for carter carbs?

Mr. Gasket 3439 - Mr. Gasket Phenolic Carb Spacer

thanks!
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: b5blue on April 13, 2015, 04:38:52 PM
Quote from: bakerhillpins on August 04, 2013, 08:46:21 PM
Quote from: cougs on June 10, 2013, 10:31:04 PM
:scratchchin:  I need to maintain carb functionality so I don't want to block my heat crossover.   Can a hole be drilled in the pan gasket to let "some" heat in so the choke operates but not so much that it boils the fuel?  Will it eventually just heat it up anyway causing locking issues?   About the only option i have because carb spacers screw up the choke linkage for me.   :shruggy:

A tad late on a response but none the less. Several folks have drilled a hole in the crossover to allow some heat flow. I have heard folks say they have drilled a 1/8" to 3/8" hole.  If you have a stock thermal choke you should just be able to add the spacer and simply bend the arm on the choke to make it the correct height/length.

I drilled 1/8 holes to let some heat in. I found if you do that it just lets the heat burn the valley pan heat blocks away. DO NOT DO IT!
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: myk on April 24, 2015, 03:22:35 AM
For what it's worth, I installed a 1/2 inch phenolic, open spacer and not only has it seemingly eliminated any hot fuel issues, but I felt the car picked up a little muscle in the mid to top end.  I do feel like I lost some low-end though; the off-idle bog I've had since the beginning has gotten worse.  All in all, I agree that a spacer of some sort will help most of us...
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Barfyspitz on June 21, 2015, 07:01:50 AM
Will a half inch spacer clear the hood on a big block with an m1 intake On a 68?
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Dino on June 21, 2015, 09:18:04 AM
Quote from: Barfyspitz on June 21, 2015, 07:01:50 AM
Will a half inch spacer clear the hood on a big block with an m1 intake On a 68?

That shouldn't be a problem.  You can always get a drop base for the air filter.

Got kids?  Borrow some playdough and smack it on the air cleaner lid.  Close the hood and see how much room you have left.  This works with several products like that crush foam stuff you can find at hobby stores.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 68charger440 on July 30, 2015, 10:21:07 PM
I HAVE THE BLOCKED CROSSOVER, AND 1/2 INCH PHENOLIC SPACER, BUT STILL ON 90 DEGREE PLUS DAYS IT STILL VAPOR LOCKS SOMETIMES ON STOP AND GO DRIVING.  Sorry, just noticed caps lock.  Anyway, what about the fuel vapor separator?  Has anyone been able to fix the vapor lock problem by adding that to the mix?  I never used one before.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: myk on July 30, 2015, 11:52:50 PM
It helped my situation, but I never had much of a vapor lock problem anyway.  My car just took a couple of extra seconds to fire when it was hot...
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: graybo on September 14, 2015, 12:53:02 PM
OK dumb question time!!!!   Can you block the heat crossover without removing the intake?  And...can I machine (cut down) the cast intake to make room for a carb spacer? :shruggy:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: graybo on September 14, 2015, 01:02:26 PM
Quote from: graybo on September 14, 2015, 12:53:02 PM
OK dumb question time!!!!   Can you block the heat crossover without removing the intake?  And...can I machine (cut down) the cast intake to make room for a carb spacer? :shruggy:


OR...Does anyone know If I can buy and aluminum intake manifold that is lower that the factory cast intake.  1970 440  with Edelbrock 800 cfm carb.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 303 Mopar on September 14, 2015, 02:06:00 PM
Quote from: graybo on September 14, 2015, 01:02:26 PM
Quote from: graybo on September 14, 2015, 12:53:02 PM
OK dumb question time!!!!   Can you block the heat crossover without removing the intake?  And...can I machine (cut down) the cast intake to make room for a carb spacer? :shruggy:


OR...Does anyone know If I can buy and aluminum intake manifold that is lower that the factory cast intake.  1970 440  with Edelbrock 800 cfm carb.

Edelbrock CH4B and Holley Street Dom intakes are the lowest profile that I know of, and I would suggest the FelPro 1215 gasket set to block the heat crossover.  Obviously you need to remove the intake to apply.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 68charger440 on September 14, 2015, 08:08:38 PM
 :iagree: The felpro 1215 is sure easier and cheaper than any other option for the crossover. 
I have an Edelbrock aftermarket air cleaner on top of my Edelbrock RPM intake and 1" spacer, so it can be done, but it sure is tight.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: b5blue on September 15, 2015, 05:03:12 PM
Quote from: 68charger440 on July 30, 2015, 10:21:07 PM
I HAVE THE BLOCKED CROSSOVER, AND 1/2 INCH PHENOLIC SPACER, BUT STILL ON 90 DEGREE PLUS DAYS IT STILL VAPOR LOCKS SOMETIMES ON STOP AND GO DRIVING.  Sorry, just noticed caps lock.  Anyway, what about the fuel vapor separator?  Has anyone been able to fix the vapor lock problem by adding that to the mix?  I never used one before.
Vapor canister return should help it designed just for that. Per some recommendations I had drilled 1/8 holes in the heat blocking intake gaskets to allow some heat to the divorced choke on my 6BBL intake. Don't do that...when I pulled the 6BBL to install a CH4B and Proform 750 4BBL I found the holes had allowed the intake gasket to burn away to next to nothing. Despite the fact that over 5-6 years the blocking had burned away, I didn't have any vapor lock issues due to installing the return system at the same time. (The new Proform 750 has electric choke so heat is fully blocked now.) You'll need to have the return line tube on your fuel gauge sending unit in the fuel tank.   
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 68charger440 on September 15, 2015, 10:25:48 PM
I'll keep that as an option if the bypass regulator doesn't do the trick. 
Right now I still have to get that regulator dialed in.  The oil filled gauge is jumping all over and the pressure seems to change when it warms up.  I think maybe the 5/16 return line I used is too much for the pump to keep up with? :shruggy: I am going to put in a 1/4 inside diameter small piece of fuel line to restrict it to see if that helps.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: b5blue on September 16, 2015, 04:59:36 AM
The oil filled gauge should be replaced with non oil filled per others advice here. (I've got one for my 440 but not installed yet, about 15.00 on eBay.)  :scratchchin: I know your pain, it's hot down here in FL. most of the year! (The 6BBL had hot restart issues a long time before figuring out what was happening.)
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 68charger440 on September 16, 2015, 08:55:12 AM
I will look for a different gauge.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: myk on September 16, 2015, 08:58:30 AM
I'd be careful with a fuel pressure gauge, if that's what we are talking about here.  I've heard of too many instances where a less sturdy gauge failed and leaked gasoline all over a hot, running engine...
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: cdr on September 16, 2015, 12:32:05 PM
yes the oil filled gauge reads wrong when it gets hot,,, also with the return system at idle the fuel pressure will go up & down as the pump pumps & fuel is returning to the tank, also it needs at least 5/16 return line.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 68charger440 on September 16, 2015, 01:39:02 PM
I think I will order a new 3/8 steel line and use the 5/16 for the return line and then get rid of the preexisting 3/8 rubber line.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 303 Mopar on October 02, 2015, 05:38:18 PM
I thought I would post some pics of my CH4B intake and Proform 750 carb swap yesterday on my 440. To keep the fuel as cool as possible, I bought the Cool Carb shield and spacer (total thickness is 3/8" made from 2 layers of aluminum and one poly insulator).  I also decided to custom build and 3/8" hard line up and over the valve cover to a 3-nipple filter (2 in, 1 out to carb and 1 out to 5/16" return line) mounted to the inner fender.  I then wrapped it all with the DEI heat shield  basically from the the fire wall to the dual feed line.  A Firecore distributor, coil and wires are next.

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8500_zps8ccgpykb.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8500_zps8ccgpykb.jpg.html)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8510_zps3hb5a0ic.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8510_zps3hb5a0ic.jpg.html)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8511_zpsetoxiu9u.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8511_zpsetoxiu9u.jpg.html)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8518_zpsgkyac24n.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8518_zpsgkyac24n.jpg.html)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8519_zpswbmdgoy3.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8519_zpswbmdgoy3.jpg.html)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8520_zpsy3xjzhtw.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8520_zpsy3xjzhtw.jpg.html)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8525_zps1svy3pzk.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8525_zps1svy3pzk.jpg.html)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8527_zps295tbpbt.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8527_zps295tbpbt.jpg.html)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8529_zpswtqfhbaa.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8529_zpswtqfhbaa.jpg.html)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8530_zpsmzhaevkv.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8530_zpsmzhaevkv.jpg.html)

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8534_zpsmbfuxs17.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8534_zpsmbfuxs17.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 68charger440 on October 02, 2015, 11:04:30 PM
Looks pretty cool...pun intended. :lol:
Do you have a leaky heater core?
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: cdr on October 02, 2015, 11:47:41 PM
DMT sells rebuild kits for that heater valve.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: myk on October 03, 2015, 04:15:59 AM
Quote from: 303 Mopar on October 02, 2015, 05:38:18 PM
I thought I would post some pics of my CH4B intake and Proform 750 carb swap yesterday on my 440. To keep the fuel as cool as possible, I bought the Cool Carb shield and spacer (total thickness is 3/8" made from 2 layers of aluminum and one poly insulator).  I also decided to custom build and 3/8" hard line up and over the valve cover to a 3-nipple filter (2 in, 1 out to carb and 1 out to 5/16" return line) mounted to the inner fender.  I then wrapped it all with the DEI heat shield  basically from the the fire wall to the dual feed line.  A Firecore distributor, coil and wires are next.
[/quote

What a coink-y-dink; I'm planning a CH4B swap as well.  Are there any tricks to it?  Is it really just prying the old manifold off and then slapping the new one on?  I hope we'll feel the difference with the CH4B...
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 303 Mopar on October 05, 2015, 09:10:13 AM
Quote from: myk on October 03, 2015, 04:15:59 AM
Quote from: 303 Mopar on October 02, 2015, 05:38:18 PM
I thought I would post some pics of my CH4B intake and Proform 750 carb swap yesterday on my 440. To keep the fuel as cool as possible, I bought the Cool Carb shield and spacer (total thickness is 3/8" made from 2 layers of aluminum and one poly insulator).  I also decided to custom build and 3/8" hard line up and over the valve cover to a 3-nipple filter (2 in, 1 out to carb and 1 out to 5/16" return line) mounted to the inner fender.  I then wrapped it all with the DEI heat shield  basically from the the fire wall to the dual feed line.  A Firecore distributor, coil and wires are next.
[/quote

What a coink-y-dink; I'm planning a CH4B swap as well.  Are there any tricks to it?  Is it really just prying the old manifold off and then slapping the new one on?  I hope we'll feel the difference with the CH4B...

The manifold was a pretty straight forward swap with a little rubber mallet persuasion. My old valley pan did not have the heat cross over blocked, nor ANY gaskets or sealant.  I did over look a hole in the manifold on the passenger side that initially caused a vacuum leak, so be sure to plug it.  I test drove the car around and it made a big difference in quickness, power on the top end and even exhaust sound.  Just waiting for the Firecore distributor (they sent me one for a 383) and then I will post more pics.  Good luck with your install!
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: AKcharger on June 24, 2016, 08:11:12 AM
Quote from: 303 Mopar on October 02, 2015, 05:38:18 PM
I thought I would post some pics of my CH4B intake and Proform 750 carb swap yesterday on my 440. To keep the fuel as cool as possible, I bought the Cool Carb shield and spacer (total thickness is 3/8" made from 2 layers of aluminum and one poly insulator).  I also decided to custom build and 3/8" hard line up and over the valve cover to a 3-nipple filter (2 in, 1 out to carb and 1 out to 5/16" return line) mounted to the inner fender.  I then wrapped it all with the DEI heat shield  basically from the the fire wall to the dual feed line.  A Firecore distributor, coil and wires are next.

And did it all work???  :popcrn:
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 303 Mopar on June 24, 2016, 10:49:40 AM
Quote from: AKcharger on June 24, 2016, 08:11:12 AM
Quote from: 303 Mopar on October 02, 2015, 05:38:18 PM
I thought I would post some pics of my CH4B intake and Proform 750 carb swap yesterday on my 440. To keep the fuel as cool as possible, I bought the Cool Carb shield and spacer (total thickness is 3/8" made from 2 layers of aluminum and one poly insulator).  I also decided to custom build and 3/8" hard line up and over the valve cover to a 3-nipple filter (2 in, 1 out to carb and 1 out to 5/16" return line) mounted to the inner fender.  I then wrapped it all with the DEI heat shield  basically from the the fire wall to the dual feed line.  A Firecore distributor, coil and wires are next.

And did it all work???  :popcrn:

Sorry I never did post the updates.  Yes, this did fix my fuel issues.  I do not have any vapor lock issues, and measured the carb to be about 20 degrees (15%) cooler with the Cool Carb spacer.  The CH4B is a big improvement over the Eddy Performer intake, and I highly recommend the Proform carb which is very easy to adjust and is the best bang for your buck.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: AKcharger on November 29, 2016, 10:08:44 PM
I too did the new intake gasket to block of the heat risers, aluminum intake and the cool carb spacers....seems to be working well!
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: W4ATL on June 26, 2017, 02:38:06 PM
When installing the Fel-Pro 1215 is gasket sealant recommended and if so what type?
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: Dino on June 26, 2017, 02:39:45 PM
Quote from: W4ATL on June 26, 2017, 02:38:06 PM
When installing the Fel-Pro 1215 is gasket sealant recommended and if so what type?

Permatex Ultra Copper. I apply a thin bead all around and smooth it out with my finger to get a thin even coat. Apply and snug the bolts down but don't torque them until the next day.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: W4ATL on July 05, 2017, 01:30:30 PM
Has anyone had trouble using the 1215 gasket with the stock intake manifold? It is a thicker gasket and the bolts are not going in right. The intake is now a little higher so that the bolts that go in at an angle will not start.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: 69wannabe on July 05, 2017, 09:54:00 PM
Are you trying to use the paper gaskets that come in the box too?? You do not have to use them, I never do at least. Just use the valley pan gasket only and you can use ultra grey silicone around the port's or I usually use the indian head shellac that has a little brush with it and just brush a thin layer in the head then put the valley pan on with silicone on the end's and then put more shellac on the valley pan around the ports then put the intake on. I usually put the end rails on once I get the valley pan in place and you should see the bolt holes are lined up pretty good before you put the intake on there.
Title: Re: Hard start & fuel boiling > Some interesting carb insulating data
Post by: BDF on July 06, 2017, 07:00:01 PM
Quote from: W4ATL on July 05, 2017, 01:30:30 PM
Has anyone had trouble using the 1215 gasket with the stock intake manifold? It is a thicker gasket and the bolts are not going in right. The intake is now a little higher so that the bolts that go in at an angle will not start.
Did you check fitment of 1215 before putting intake on? Mine had some "soft" bends & didn't lay all the way down nice and flush until I carefully bent each side a little more.  :shruggy: