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It seems like there is more talk of them all the time.  Do you think the internal combustion engine is going away anytime soon?

In ten years I'd say.  :scratchchin:

 nope ! only time I can / could see  electric out selling internal combustion cars  is if , all electric cars were priced at $4000 to $8000  thousand new !  for all the models & makes , charging time  would be a couple of minutes max  &  a gallon of electricity :-\ would be a quarter of the price of a gallon of gas  :yesnod: & finally main dealer servicing cost & replacement parts would be half the price of a conventional  internal combustion car  :yesnod: , but who knows look how social media / sadbook  smart / I phones have taken off a certain age group cant put the damn things down & even killing them selves while taking selfies & texting while driving ... so who knows
 :Twocents:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deRoxmrwYiI
 
always liked a olds 442 with a 455 :yesnod:

 

  
Small compacts that are used for efficient transportation?   Electrics will dominate pretty soon.

Fullsize pickups that are used to do work?  They will stay combustion for the foreseeable future.   Batteries can't even approach the energy density of liquid fuel.


The vehicles in the middle are the uncertainty.  

I say no, unless battery technology improves greatly and quickly, someone invent a "Mr. Fusion" or dilithium crystals are discovered and an engine is built that runs on them.

Only people who should or will buy them are folks in big cities that have major congestion issues. Some people drive 20 miles to work and it takes the 1.5 hours to get there.
Glad I moved from California to the Midwest. :cheers:

depends on the infrastructure (ie. charging stations) and how the tech curve moves along to make them more practical for certain uses. I personally stopped short of getting a Model 3 only because I often have to drive long distances to the middle of nowhere for work and didn't want to risk running out of juice with no way to charge quickly.  If I had a normal type commute, I'd have been all over it.

You guys sometimes forget that not everyone is a gearhead like us. 90% of the buying public sees cars as appliances. Make one that's aesthetically pleasing and uses no gas, and it will sell.

You will not be able to buy a new car with an internal combustion engine in the UK after 2042. We are on target to sell 10% of all new cars as full electrics (not including stupid hybrids!) this year and it will only get higher as the tech improves....we already have cars that can do around 400 miles on a single charge (lets be honest that enough in a single drive without stopping for most of us) and you can get to about 80% of full charge in half an hour with the right charger. 1000 mile plus range is just around the corner and charging from a normal house plug....its coming in afraid!

 What about the EPA and all the battery acid spilling into the ground.   :shruggy:

Quote from: ACUDANUT on October 09, 2019, 05:46:29 PM
What about the EPA and all the battery acid spilling into the ground.   :shruggy:

Hell if I care.

Less gas money spent on my daily drivers = more money spent on the classic.

Quote from: alfaitalia on October 09, 2019, 05:41:37 PM
1000 mile plus range is just around the corner and charging from a normal house plug....its coming in afraid!

My magic number before I go full electric is 500 actual (not "estimated") miles. It's about 3 days (and then some) of regular commute and would be enough to get me to and back from some of the remote locations I have to drive to.

Quote from: Ponch ® on October 09, 2019, 04:43:10 PM

You guys sometimes forget that not everyone is a gearhead like us. 90% of the buying public sees cars as appliances. Make one that's aesthetically pleasing and uses no gas, and it will sell.

Exactly.  I think it will be some time before all vehicles are electric, but the 50% mark will be here before you know it.  Take a look around.  You can get just about everything powered by a battery.  Most of my industrial and commercial contractors are almost 100% battery for tools.  The Stihl catalog is full of batter power options for just about every tool.  Auto companies have all partnered with battery companies with big $$$ for catching up with other companies.    Car prices will come down and more high paying american labor jobs will go out the door as no battery will be made here.  The UAW is already seeing it coming, and I understand that this is part of today's strike discussion.

When they become less expensive than an ICE motive vehicle, they'll really take off.

Usually these types of significant changes happen at an exponential rate.

Quote from: alfaitalia on October 09, 2019, 05:41:37 PM
You will not be able to buy a new car with an internal combustion engine in the UK after 2042.

I would bet money that as that year grows closer, they push it further out, then again further out...

QuoteI would bet money that as that year grows closer, they push it further out, then again further out...

I wouldn't bet too high on that.


Their gasoline prices have always been much higher than the USA's.      

The UK is a group of relatively small crowded islands.  Creating the charging station infrastructure will not be such a huge job.  

They have compact cities and their public transportation isn't a joke - fewer people buy commuter cars than in USA, electric or not.  

I assume the electric rule applies to commuter cars only, not for trucks that do work (and thus need the energy density of 'petrol').  They don't have our big truck/SUV habit so their average commuter car is actually small to begin with. 


It's a very different set of circumstances than we have.

Europe in general is like that.   You can drive through five different countries in a day.

Quote from: Ghoste on October 10, 2019, 05:42:51 AM
Europe in general is like that.   You can drive through five different countries in a day.

Its hard to get across Texas east to west or North to south in one day LOL, 801 miles top to bottom, 773 east to west. & alot of NOTHING :)

Quote from: Kern Dog on October 09, 2019, 10:45:16 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on October 09, 2019, 05:41:37 PM
You will not be able to buy a new car with an internal combustion engine in the UK after 2042.

I would bet money that as that year grows closer, they push it further out, then again further out...

I believe the ice will be phased out before than in GB. A lot of advancement can be made in 20 years.  I'm sure battery range will be comparable if not exceeding the range of gasoline by then.

QuoteI believe the ice will be phased out before than in GB. A lot of advancement can be made in 20 years.  I'm sure battery range will be comparable if not exceeding the range of gasoline by then.

I gotta disagree on that.  

Fossil fuels have always been a vastly superior way to store power, and they still are.  Electric cars only became viable because the batteries had made a little progress + the drivetrains got more efficient than ever.  Electric batteries still absolutely suck in the big picture compared to storing power in a few gallons of combustible fossil fuels.  I don't see big leaps & bounds in battery tech very soon.  That has been "a few years away" for over a century.  

I voted on 15 years "just because", but, more realistically I think it will take 30 years to install all the infrastructure to support electric cars over long distances.  A lot of people will probably end up with an electric for around town but keep a gas powered car/truck for specific tasks or for long distance travel.  That's probably where I will be in five years.  Don't even count the old muscle cars like we have, there are so few of them that they really don't count much in the mix.

Just a side note, eventually, there will be more regulation and restrictions put on driving cars in dense population areas (that means downtown of big cities).  London and other cities already do this so it will happen here, just not the exact same but the same effect.  So will gas powered cars go away, not for decades but they will be a smaller mix of the cars on the road.

Does anyone think battery technology has not changed in a 100 years.  That's funny.

Tesla has recently filed patents for "million mile batteries".  Every major is spending way more money on battery technology and research.

Maybe they have it wrong.

QuoteDoes anyone think battery technology has not changed in a 100 years.  That's funny.

Tesla has recently filed patents for "million mile batteries".  Every major is spending way more money on battery technology and research.

Maybe they have it wrong.

Humanity has been trying to make better batteries for well over 100 years.  The electric car industry is standing in line waiting for them along with smartphones and power tools and nuclear submarines.    

Has progress been made in a century?  Yes.
Are they near fossil fuels yet?  No.    


Elon Musk - he could announce plans to build a Death Star and the press would run the story with a straight face.  I'll believe a million-mile battery when I see one.  

Obviously (for the hard of thinking that might be on here) thats a million mile lifetime.....not range!!! :lol:

Because Musk has no track record for innovation and success.  The media has nothing to do with it. I'm just standing here with my eyes and ears open.

QuoteBecause Musk has no track record for innovation and success.  The media has nothing to do with it. I'm just standing here with my eyes and ears open.

I would agree he's gotten a lot done, and succeeded at some surprising stuff.

He has also claimed he's gonna build hi-speed tunnels under LA and up to SanFran.  And send people to Mars by 2025.  Etc.  The SEC and DOJ have both gone after him with major financial fraud investigations.

Oil companies are too big and too deep into worldwide pockets. If we went full battery, they would be bankrupted. Will never happen. More battery cars- sure, but never phased out. Everyone loves their hybrids til they breakdown.... i see the bug eyes all the time when i tell them how much the repairs will cost. And tesla is a joke. Not sure how they are getting around alot of legalities. For instance- just had to do a state inspection on one. Tesla refuses to publish even brake specifications. No specs no inspection. Sorry, it fails. Called tesla and they said they wont give the info out, you can only buy parts and get repairs done at their dealer. Thats illegal. Had a pissed off customer. Even called the state police who agreed with me and failed the car.

Subscribe to Automotive News.  I think you can get one month special offer for one dollar.  Read it every day for a month.  Report back where the majors are, and even more importantly where they are not putting their money and research.  Be objective.

 :icon_smile_big:

Agreed.

Quote from: cdr on October 12, 2019, 03:16:26 PM
:icon_smile_big:

Not all emissions from EGU's are the same.  The NG fired EGU and american coal fired EGUs are a net positive for the environment.  China however, the net emissions for EV is greater than from gasoline.

I'm surprised at that....thought a high percentage of Chinese power came from nuclear.

Quote from: alfaitalia on October 12, 2019, 05:07:36 PM
I'm surprised at that....thought a high percentage of Chinese power came from nuclear.

Mostly coal.  2 or 3% from nuclear.

I'm patiently waiting on Jeep to show up with a electric / hybrid Cherokee something that I can safely commute 365 / year in NY.

Electric only cars still have range issues that may or not get me to work and back.   I know of several hybrid drivers at work... but I'd never get caught dead buying a prius.

Quote from: BSB67 on October 12, 2019, 09:38:14 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on October 12, 2019, 05:07:36 PM
I'm surprised at that....thought a high percentage of Chinese power came from nuclear.

Mostly coal.  2 or 3% from nuclear.

I think that's right.  China is desperate to get away from coal because of the pollution problems and the need to import coal, including from us!!   For them, a good alternative is natural gas, because they can convert coal plants easier than build new, but they don't have a lot of infrastructure to import. Last I saw they have a big project with Russia to build a gas pipeline.

They are really pushing the EV industry also because they import a lot of oil from the middle east which is a problem for them as they have a large Muslim population that they treat like sh*t.  Tesla is a big player in China but only until they can steal the technology.

My wife and I visited Norway earlier this year.  Over there, more than half of all new cars sold are full-EV's. 

I just looked up Norway & it is about the size of California with less population than Massachusetts. Most of the population lives in the southern part of the country and I would guess in small countries where people don't travel much, electric cars do make sense.

Car sales in the US represents about 4% of total global car sales.

Quote from: BSB67 on October 14, 2019, 06:13:07 AM
Car sales in the US represents about 4% of total global car sales.

Link to actual numbers...   US is above 4%.  WAY above, in fact. 

https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-country.html

Quote from: cdr on October 12, 2019, 03:16:26 PM
:icon_smile_big:

Would you agree that environmental pollution increases the risk of getting cancer?

A few of us reading this thread are cancer survivors.     

Quote from: odcics2 on October 14, 2019, 08:06:53 AM

Quote from: BSB67 on October 14, 2019, 06:13:07 AM
Car sales in the US represents about 4% of total global car sales.

Link to actual numbers...   US is above 4%.  WAY above, in fact. 

https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-country.html

You are correct.  My mistake. 

         

QuoteI just looked up Norway & it is about the size of California with less population than Massachusetts. Most of the population lives in the southern part of the country and I would guess in small countries where people don't travel much, electric cars do make sense.

Simple yardstick - if the vehicle had a gasoline engine, would it be practical with only a 5-gallon tank? 


A commuter car in a dense city?  No problem at all.   

A snow-plowing pickup truck in a hilly rural area?  Forget it.   
   

Another interesting chart: where the middle class went...

Remember the days when GM had over 50% of the market?
All the parts for cars were made here. All the tooling was made here. 
Heck all the vehicles we used to buy were made here.

Notice the rise of Chinese vehicle production!!

So, we are building less here but have a strong market.   Imports are eating our breakfast, lunch and soon dinner, too. 
Manufacturing jobs built the US.   What's to carry us on?   Serving burgers?

LOL some of you guys crack me up. Not everything that is new or different from "the way things have always been"  is a liberal conspiracy to undermine the american way of life. I realize some of you still think cassette tapes are part of a socialist plot (because you know, sharing music), but damn, use some common sense.

I daily drive a plug-in hybrid. I don't give a fck about the environment. I give a fck about 45 mpg  vs.  the 18-20 I get on my 5.7 Daytona. When you commute a minimum of 140 miles daily, thats about $16 a day vs. $30 a day at current gas prices- a difference of about $14/day.; or $70/week; or $300-350/month; or...well, you get the idea.

Quote from: odcics2 on October 14, 2019, 08:12:41 AM

Quote from: cdr on October 12, 2019, 03:16:26 PM
:icon_smile_big:

Would you agree that environmental pollution increases the risk of getting cancer?

A few of us reading this thread are cancer survivors.    

I agree !! OH by the way I too am a cancer survivor . if you read my story in the link on the bottom you would have known that. it even says it in the link title.

Quote from: green69rt on October 13, 2019, 06:05:20 PM
.  Tesla is a big player in China but only until they can steal the technology.

By the time they chew him up and spit him out,   China will own Musk and Tesla.   

Quote from: cdr on October 14, 2019, 10:50:37 AM

Quote from: odcics2 on October 14, 2019, 08:12:41 AM

Quote from: cdr on October 12, 2019, 03:16:26 PM
:icon_smile_big:

Would you agree that environmental pollution increases the risk of getting cancer?

A few of us reading this thread are cancer survivors.    

I agree !! OH by the way I too am a cancer survivor . if you read my story in the link on the bottom you would have known that. it even says it in the link title.

The air and water is cleaner NOW than it was when our parents were our age. The medicine available to us is supposed to be more effective. WE drink more water, smoke fewer cigarettes, eat less meat and go to the doctor with more frequency.
Electric cars have zero appeal to me.

I agree with that Kern.

Quote from: cdr on October 14, 2019, 10:50:37 AM

Quote from: odcics2 on October 14, 2019, 08:12:41 AM

Quote from: cdr on October 12, 2019, 03:16:26 PM
:icon_smile_big:

Would you agree that environmental pollution increases the risk of getting cancer?

A few of us reading this thread are cancer survivors.    

I agree !! OH by the way I too am a cancer survivor . if you read my story in the link on the bottom you would have known that. it even says it in the link title.

So, this environmental crisis is not make believe, like the joke you posted? 
I think "we" have and continue to wreck the earth, leading to guys like you, me and others to have cancer at early ages. 

Cancer isn't liberal or conservative.   It kills everyone... 

Quote from: Kern Dog on October 15, 2019, 11:11:02 PM

Quote from: cdr on October 14, 2019, 10:50:37 AM

Quote from: odcics2 on October 14, 2019, 08:12:41 AM

Quote from: cdr on October 12, 2019, 03:16:26 PM
:icon_smile_big:

Would you agree that environmental pollution increases the risk of getting cancer?

A few of us reading this thread are cancer survivors.    

I agree !! OH by the way I too am a cancer survivor . if you read my story in the link on the bottom you would have known that. it even says it in the link title.

The air and water is cleaner NOW than it was when our parents were our age. The medicine available to us is supposed to be more effective. WE drink more water, smoke fewer cigarettes, eat less meat and go to the doctor with more frequency.
Electric cars have zero appeal to me.

I agree with you Greg.  Yet NOW we have a guy in DC undermining decades of progress.  California has been in the lead to getting cleaner air and water.  Now, it's in court to keep that right!!   

Oh, not a fan of electric cars, unless I could charge in the same time like a normal gas fillup.   I'm in my 60s.  Time is more valuable and you can't buy it! 
     

LMMFAO  :pity:

Mass adoption of electrics will be driven by a governmental top-down approach.      You can see how this is playing out in some European countries.      

In the USA,  EV's remain inconsequential and will continue to be for the short term.    If the current US administration remains in power in 2021,  you can kick the EV can down the road another four years, regardless of the electric dog food the manufacturers will try to serve up.    If the liberals regain power in 2021,  you can be sure that EV tax incentives will be on the table.    

Quote from: Kern Dog on October 15, 2019, 11:11:02 PM

Quote from: cdr on October 14, 2019, 10:50:37 AM

Quote from: odcics2 on October 14, 2019, 08:12:41 AM

Quote from: cdr on October 12, 2019, 03:16:26 PM
:icon_smile_big:

Would you agree that environmental pollution increases the risk of getting cancer?

A few of us reading this thread are cancer survivors.    

I agree !! OH by the way I too am a cancer survivor . if you read my story in the link on the bottom you would have known that. it even says it in the link title.

WE drink more water, smoke fewer cigarettes, eat less meat and go to the doctor with more frequency.

Now THAT is the pussification of America.

    not sure if anyone else here is a fan of Scotty,  lot true stuff in his videos  :yesnod:

 
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73M80tZPSIg

This administration has not really undermined much of anything meaningful in today's in effect environmental stds.  This administration's effect is more like the slowing of a flywheel that was spinning out of control.

I agree.
I feel that the climate is far more resilient than we are.  I see the GREEN movement as a reduction in freedoms and choices.  When they outlaw guns, red meat and gasoline cars, only the people in power will have them.

QuoteThis administration has not really undermined much of anything meaningful in today's ineffect environmental stds.  This administration effect is more like the slowing of a flywheel that was spinning out of control.

The Trump admin revoked an Obama-era mandate that Federal building projects must factor in the coming sea level rise.  That's pure short-sighted bad judgment.  The mandate already existed.  All they had to do was leave it alone.  But, umm, it was credited to Obama so I guess that was grounds to tear it up.  


The EPA's prosecutions of violations are at a 30-year low because of lack of resources.  Lots of presidents deserve blame for this but the Trump admin is arguably the worst.    

Underfunding an enforcement agency...  in practice it usually means they keep busting the little guys as much as ever, but they "negotiate with" (LOL) the big corporate players that do most of the damage.  

(BTW - it would be a NET GAIN for the govt to spend more money prosecuting the big IRS tax cheats.  But for some strange reason this never gets funded either.  It's another ongoing problem that keeps getting worsened.)

QuoteI agree.
I feel that the climate is far more resilient than we are.  I see the GREEN movement as a reduction in freedoms and choices.  When they outlaw guns, red meat and gasoline cars, only the people in power will have them.

Gun laws & environmental laws are two different subjects.  


The climate is resilient, yeah.  But most people don't want to live in a polluted shithole that won't be clean for decades to come.  That's what the USA would be if the environmental laws were tossed.  We need this stuff in the big picture.  


The USA is too big to outlaw gasoline burning in the foreseeable future.  EVs cannot replace the energy density of fossil fuels yet.  I just don't see it happening.  You cannot use a Prius to tow a boat or plow snow in rural Wyoming.  That kind of stuff is not even close to being workable in EVs.  

Old cars are a small niche hobby market anyway.  Modern vehicles are becoming fragile plastic laptops with wheels.  Whether it's electric or gasoline powered, either way the new vehicles in 20 years won't be hot-rodding material as we know it.  They are pretty unworkable even today.  And as manufacturing advances, it should get easier to do smaller-run products - that makes hot-rodding less reliant on new OEM vehicles for raw material.

Outlaw Cows and Horses too. They Fart and pollute the world...Come to think of it, so do Humans..:brickwall:

Joking apart cows (and meat production in general) is one of the biggest causes of climate change...mainly due to the amount of methane produced (one of the worst greenhouse gases). It's the third biggest cause of climate change after burning fossil fuels and deforestation apparently.

Quote from: alfaitalia on October 17, 2019, 02:24:44 AM
Joking apart cows (and meat production in general) is one of the biggest causes of climate change...mainly due to the amount of methane produced (one of the worst greenhouse gases). It's the third biggest cause of climate change after burning fossil fuels and deforestation apparently.

Cows are not the only animal that produces methane. If cow farts are bad, why not include every animal's farts as being bad for the environment? 

This is just like the movement to bad plastic straws because an 9 year old wrote an essay deeming them bad. If plastic straws are so bad, why not ban all plastics associated with food?

All this shaming and banning of products is less about the environment & more about control.

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on October 16, 2019, 08:59:32 PM

Modern vehicles are becoming fragile plastic laptops with wheels.  Whether it's electric or gasoline powered, either way the new vehicles in 20 years won't be hot-rodding material as we know it.  They are pretty unworkable even today.  And as manufacturing advances, it should get easier to do smaller-run products - that makes hot-rodding less reliant on new OEM vehicles for raw material.

EV's (even the ones right now) are "devices", like your phone.    You won't keep an old one running.    When your phone gets old, you just get a new, better one.    The same thought process will be accepted for EV's.

  The trend to electric will continue to gain ground and if for any reason oil prices spike it will do so even faster. I recall arguing with a retired engineer about hybrid cars possibility 25 years ago. He was convinced "were it possible, it would have been done" so there must be an inherent flaw in scaling up to a full production car.
 How much of an increase at the pump has you freaking out and consumables costs skyrocketing? The rest of the world can have cars and trucks running 600-1200cc engines but they are banned here? Oh they are "not safe on our roads" and perhaps the engine is a bit too dirty? BULL they are no more "unsafe" then my motorcycle and no more dirty than 1000s of mower/weed wacker/generator/blower (ect.) engines. Our market (USA) is a bizarre mix of what lobbyists and legislators will allow not an open field so any new or different auto has a hard uphill battle at best.
 Gas won the battle over electric and until some super battery is cheap and dependable gas will have it's place in many uses.    

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on October 17, 2019, 06:11:54 AM

Cows are not the only animal that produces methane. If cow farts are bad, why not include every animal's farts as being bad for the environment?  

This is just like the movement to bad plastic straws because an 9 year old wrote an essay deeming them bad. If plastic straws are so bad, why not ban all plastics associated with food?

All this shaming and banning of products is less about the environment & more about control.

I was at a restaurant recently and asked for a straw for my water.  The gal says that it will be $3.  I asked why.  She said they want to discourage the use of plastic "for the environment".  Then I asked how my straw would harm the environment.  In some disgust, she responded by saying haven't you head  about plastic in the ocean. I then suggested that they should not put straws in the ocean.  Then I asked what her employer does with the extra money he's making by selling straws for $3.....putting the extra money in his pocket????  She was completely dumbfounded.

Good for you. The environment is not as fragile as these idiots believe. I see no reason to blatantly pollute or chop down trees for no good reason but these environment zealots are as delusional as a religious fanatic. THey would be much easier to believe if they had a more common sense approach.

Quote from: BSB67 on October 17, 2019, 07:12:04 PM

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on October 17, 2019, 06:11:54 AM

Cows are not the only animal that produces methane. If cow farts are bad, why not include every animal's farts as being bad for the environment?  

This is just like the movement to bad plastic straws because an 9 year old wrote an essay deeming them bad. If plastic straws are so bad, why not ban all plastics associated with food?

All this shaming and banning of products is less about the environment & more about control.

I was at a restaurant recently and asked for a straw for my water.  The gal says that it will be $3.  I asked why.  She said they want to discourage the use of plastic "for the environment".  Then I asked how my straw would harm the environment.  In some disgust, she responded by saying haven't you head  about plastic in the ocean. I then suggested that they should not put straws in the ocean.  Then I asked what her employer does with the extra money he's making by selling straws for $3.....putting the extra money in his pocket????  She was completely dumbfounded.

So, did you buy the straw??

Yes.  Which reminds me.  I need to put some plastic straws in my car.

We do need environmental rules, but the save the environmental pendulum has swung way to far in the opposite direction.  People don't understand what a technically and scientifically unfounded save the environment Nazi society we've become.

Just to be clear.  I love the internal combustion engine, especially 2-stroke engines, but I don't hate EVs.  It has nothing to do with the environment for me.  And I don't think it does for most people.  I know several people with hybrid cars and it is not about the environment for any of them.  Most families have multiple cars.  One or more EVs can fit in my stable while I can still have my truck.  Young people in urban areas will flock to them as fast as the infrastructure can keep up.  I just don't think the 50% mark will be hard to hit.  I think the technology will be there, I think there will be enough desire, and the infrastructure is the question.

Don't you remember the 70s and early 80s when we all knew that muscle cars were dead?  Nobody in their wildest dream thought that a high performance car would ever be made again because of emission standards and fuel mileage.  My minivan would give any 383 4bbl car a run for its money today.

When EVs do come, we'll be racing them too.  Heck, we race lawnmowers.

The part that is going to really suck is when they take away my ICE, if I'm still around.

My question would have been for the waitress is why are they throwing the garbage from the dinner into the ocean ?

Don Garlits electric Dragster
https://youtu.be/rPT3zZuzIpk

Quote from: Kern Dog on October 17, 2019, 09:58:15 PM
Good for you. The environment is not as fragile as these idiots believe.

Still toeing the party line, eh?

Quote from: John_Kunkel on October 18, 2019, 12:02:27 PM

Quote from: Kern Dog on October 17, 2019, 09:58:15 PM
Good for you. The environment is not as fragile as these idiots believe.

Still toeing the party line, eh?

2+2 = 5

Quote from: John_Kunkel on October 18, 2019, 12:02:27 PM

Quote from: Kern Dog on October 17, 2019, 09:58:15 PM
Good for you. The environment is not as fragile as these idiots believe.

Still toeing the party line, eh?

Still a clueless LIberal?

Quote from: Kern Dog on October 18, 2019, 06:41:09 PM

Quote from: John_Kunkel on October 18, 2019, 12:02:27 PM

Quote from: Kern Dog on October 17, 2019, 09:58:15 PM
Good for you. The environment is not as fragile as these idiots believe.

Still toeing the party line, eh?

Still a clueless LIberal?

So conversely, are you saying that Crazy Conservatives are for a bad environment? 

So a car that's made of trash, runs on plastic and only emits water owned only by one who votes Conservative will stop all this bickering?  :nana:

Quote from: b5blue on October 20, 2019, 07:37:44 AM
So a car that's made of trash, runs on plastic and only emits water owned only by one who votes Conservative will stop all this bickering?  :nana:

:rofl:

Some guys always have to bring politics into threads!    :whistling:

Hmmm, lets see... Ah, electric cars!   :scratchchin:

Quote from: odcics2 on October 20, 2019, 07:17:48 AM

So conversely, are you saying that Crazy Conservatives are for a bad environment? 

What determines that my political party is crazy?
I am for traditional American values like gasoline burning cars, red meat, freedom from oppressive regulations, mandates and throat-choking Government. I don't like the "Progressive" movement where TV shows have to include every freak and minority member, all social programs favor the lazy over the people that play by the rules and work, illegal border crossers get welcomed instead of deported....
The green movement is embraced by the left, not the right. The left shows far more interest in electric cars than the right does. American manufacturing went overseas for many reasons, one of which was oppressive environmental regulations that do not exist elsewhere.
I am not against clean air and water. I am against rules that chase away business while having zero impact on the environment.
Globalists and leftists have become one. They would rather have America's living standard lowered to match the rest of the world than to allow us to continue to lead the way.
No thanks....I'll stay with my party despite their faults.

Over here the green movement is embraced by both left and right......they would be stupid not to if they want to win any elections!!!.....I don't see your political beliefs should come into it much with so many people actually caring what happens to the planet. I vote to the right......but as much as I love red meat and fast petrol cars I'm not blind and realise that sooner rather than later we are going to have to do something about the fuck up we are making of this planet....we only have the one. Saying the climate change is not affected by us to any degree with the evidence so overpowering is clearly ridiculous.... I too did not want to believe it......but I cant deny it now.

Quote from: Kern Dog on October 20, 2019, 01:06:28 PM

Quote from: odcics2 on October 20, 2019, 07:17:48 AM

So conversely, are you saying that Crazy Conservatives are for a bad environment? 

What determines that my political party is crazy?
I am for traditional American values like gasoline burning cars, red meat, freedom from oppressive regulations, mandates and throat-choking Government. I don't like the "Progressive" movement where TV shows have to include every freak and minority member, all social programs favor the lazy over the people that play by the rules and work, illegal border crossers get welcomed instead of deported....
The green movement is embraced by the left, not the right. The left shows far more interest in electric cars than the right does. American manufacturing went overseas for many reasons, one of which was oppressive environmental regulations that do not exist elsewhere.
I am not against clean air and water. I am against rules that chase away business while having zero impact on the environment.
Globalists and leftists have become one. They would rather have America's living standard lowered to match the rest of the world than to allow us to continue to lead the way.
No thanks....I'll stay with my party despite their faults.

:scratchchin:

Now THIS is truth ^^^^^^^
BOTH sides are BATSHIT CRAZY

Quote from: cdr on October 21, 2019, 09:16:22 AM

Now THIS is truth ^^^^^^^
BOTH sides are BATSHIT CRAZY

:yesnod:

:cheers:

Quote from: alfaitalia on October 21, 2019, 07:46:25 AM
Saying the climate change is not affected by us to any degree with the evidence so overpowering is clearly ridiculous.... I too did not want to believe it......but I cant deny it now.

Saying that we as humans can influence the climate is akin to saying that the fleas on a dog can make the dog change direction.
Follow the money. For every bit of evidence that "we are affecting the planet", there is an equal amount of rebuttal that we cannot.

Utter rubbish.....honestly.....just look at what you are saying....and do a bit of reading. I usually have respect for what you say (both on cars and other subjects)....but this is saying what you want to believe (what we would all rather believe to be honest)..rather than looking at the facts. By the way my Charger will do 50 to the gallon when its done.....I believe that so it must be true!....and you have to believe me and I have absolutely no evidence to back it up. Stupid....but not dissimilar!

This is interesting....although its all lies of course to keep us subservient and under the power of "the man"!!!....read through all the blue links under the word "FACTS".

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/ (https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/)

.....by the way....maybe not one flea..... but about 7 billion fleas on that same dog would definitely have an affect!!! ...and there's your problem. Stopping any couple having more than 2 kids would be a massive step in the right direction IMO.

Wow. A government study wants us to change so they can have more control.
Yeah....Sure makes sense to me... :slap:

Check this out:

Quote from: Kern Dog on October 21, 2019, 05:49:03 PM
Check this out:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fee.org/articles/the-epic-failure-of-the-government-gas-can//amp

Check out the out of control government spending!!   :eek2:

Quote from: odcics2 on October 30, 2019, 04:53:30 PM
Check out the out of control government spending!!   :eek2:

I would gripe about the Democrats but the Republicans (so-called conservatives) are as bad or worse.

Quote from: green69rt on October 30, 2019, 10:49:03 PM

Quote from: odcics2 on October 30, 2019, 04:53:30 PM
Check out the out of control government spending!!   :eek2:

I would gripe about the Democrats but the Republicans (so-called conservatives) as as bad or worse.

I gotta laugh or I'd cry!  :yesnod:

For sure either one would pass laws controlling what you drive if they thought it would buy them power.  I wonder how long after widespread electric car useage before lithium mines become a poster cause for the greens?

Quote from: Ghoste on November 01, 2019, 05:28:51 AM
For sure either one would pass laws controlling what you drive if they thought it would buy them power.  I wonder how long after widespread electric car useage before lithium mines become a poster cause for the greens?

This certainly could be the next hue and cry from the green movement.     Even Salon which is not exactly known for as a bastion of conservative viewpoints published this piece recently.

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/17/lithium-mining-for-green-electric-cars-is-leaving-a-stain-on-the-planet/ (https://www.salon.com/2019/06/17/lithium-mining-for-green-electric-cars-is-leaving-a-stain-on-the-planet/)

Quote from: Ghoste on November 01, 2019, 05:28:51 AM
For sure either one would pass laws controlling what you drive if they thought it would buy them power.  I wonder how long after widespread electric car useage before lithium mines become a poster cause for the greens?

At some point, we'll poison ourselves and be extinct.  (a few more centuries perhaps?)

The planet will go on, not to worry!!    :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod:

Be interesting to see who, or what, rises up to replace us! 

Rats, cockroaches and spiders seem to be immune to virtually everything....so perhaps ones of them.

Quote from: b5blue on October 31, 2019, 10:13:48 AM

Quote from: green69rt on October 30, 2019, 10:49:03 PM

Quote from: odcics2 on October 30, 2019, 04:53:30 PM
Check out the out of control government spending!!   :eek2:

I would gripe about the Democrats but the Republicans (so-called conservatives) as as bad or worse.

I gotta laugh or I'd cry!  :yesnod:

they both want to control what you do and say, just in different ways.

I posted this in Facebook recently but it's relevant for several reasons. Even though the government has mandated stricter emissions, consumers aren't rushing to adopt EVs. Car manufacturers don't want to make what people don't buy. The have also decided that hybrids just aren't a solution (it's average emissions so each EV has a bigger impact overall). It's going to be rather messy.

QuoteThe push for electrification in Europe means selling mass-market vehicles there will be unprofitable "for a decade or two," John Murphy, an auto analyst for Bank of America Merrill Lynch, said during a presentation this month in Detroit.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-26/europe-s-tough-new-emissions-rules-come-with-39-billion-threat?fbclid=IwAR2LOk9fOS7AL42rDVcyqZxJZcmNZgWpdvGyeo4JzfpFCQq_pWP7KYIIb5k

One politician here in the US has proposed a plan to remove 63 million "old" cars from the roads over 10 years. Let me ask: who has the capacity to produce enough "clean" vehicles to replace them? What would 63 million EVs do to the electrical grid? Luckily, here we could at least still use hybrids (we need them for the range that EVs lack).

I'm wondering... why isn't there an "upgrade" path? Is it so difficult to retrofit a vehicle with electric? Many countries have offered incentives to convert a vehicle to CNG (possibly hydrogen?). The waste seems staggering to me. I saw an article about NASA taking delivery of the "first electric powered plane" - but I know some short tour operators have converted their planes to all electric years ago. When you're flying local in good weather you don't need the range/reserve that you'd need for cross country flying.

Troy

  
Retrofitting electrics -

It's pretty difficult to update any vehicle in any way on a large scale.  I don't see EV retrofits ever becoming very common for cost/benefit reasons.  When the whole drivetrain changes shape it just makes more sense to let the vehicle fleet cycle over.  It only takes 10-15 years for the majority to be replaced.       



Removing 63 million 'old' gasoline vehicles from the roads -

50 years ago the US military looked like this:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSD-ibCJFU7uHz52ytHaUNO8frqs76vImv0KSR688L6fqnr1pPM)

Now it looks like this:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRgZ0Xijngq9XA2xbwT4mb82CrTpJ49MnK3AH0t7Gc7h1lV89i6)


I don't think the govt intends to end the public's gasoline habit any time soon.  

Consider in about 3-4 minutes I can fill my tank vs 4 hours to recharge enough for a fraction of that gas car's range. They have work yet to do to come close to energy packed in fossil fuel.

Quote from: b5blue on November 10, 2019, 09:19:09 PM
Consider in about 3-4 minutes I can fill my tank vs 4 hours to recharge enough for a fraction of that gas car's range. They have work yet to do to come close to energy packed in fossil fuel.

Universal batteries. one size fits all.
Pull in, swap them for a charged one, leave.
Obviously, the 'stations' would be HUGE to supply batteries and charger them. Probably a lot less time though.

Less amount of recharging stations, but larger ones.   

Quote from: b5blue on November 10, 2019, 09:19:09 PM
Consider in about 3-4 minutes I can fill my tank vs 4 hours to recharge enough for a fraction of that gas car's range. They have work yet to do to come close to energy packed in fossil fuel.

The new Porsche 800 volt battery can do a 75% recharge in 22.5 minutes.

That still sucks.

QuoteThat still sucks.

It's fast enough to be a game-changer.


But that's assuming it could be done as a normal habit.  If it's a not-recommended stunt that taxes the hell out of the battery (shorter lifespan), that is not so helpful. 

What is different about that battery?

Does not really matter how fast it will charge a battery
If you can charge in 10 minutes but only drive 50 miles is not much good
If you can charge in 20 minutes and drive 300 miles that is better
It is all relative but not mentioned how far it will go

Actually looks like 83%, not 75%.  Full charge, 250 miles.  0-60 in less than 3 seconds.

All that said, there are no charging stations in this country to facilitate this rapid charge rate.

But you get my point.

Did anyone on here do the one month free subscription to Automotive News?  If not, I can give you some highlights if you like.

So, the Mustang Mach E.  Dont like Mustangs, dont like crossovers, and generally dont like Fords. But oddly im kinda into it.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/F387/production/_109734326_bf719441-85d2-4e17-89d1-90f62e4028aa.jpg)

Thoughts?   :stirthepot:

I don't mind it, but why would you take such an iconic name/car, and turn it into typical nondescript crossover.  I have to believe that the Mustang loyalists are furious.  It seem like Ford is walking away from a segment of their loyal followers in a very intentional way.  It screams "we don't car about you...."

Quote from: Ponch ® on November 19, 2019, 12:43:25 PM
So, the Mustang Mach E.  Dont like Mustangs, dont like crossovers, and generally dont like Fords. But oddly im kinda into it.



Thoughts?   :stirthepot:

I am not surprised by this. At all. 

 
AFAIK this doesn't mean the death of the traditional Mustang, just an additional version.  

Honestly I've been surprised that Ford has not tried branching the name out a long time ago.  Although making a small 4x4 'Bronco' was pretty close.



At some point one of the big brands will come out with a medium-size electric drivetrain that is workable.  When it does - look out.  The end of internal combustion's hi-performance dominance will be coming.  

The tipping point is not when something electric goes faster than gasoline.  (We're passing that already.)  The tipping point is when something goes faster that is cheap & common & wrench-able.  That's not a Tesla.  But an electric vehicle from Ford, that's called a 'Mustang' . . . hmm . . .  
 

I think it's a smart move.  Tesla's are beating Hellcats.  If Ford wants to beat Tesla, there is no better Ford to do it with than Mustang.  Tesla doesn't build a 2 dr coupe, and suv's are selling.  It's rumored that the Mustang coupe is supposed to share a platform with a suv.  Maybe this is the suv.  If Mustang  coupe goes with an all electric option, that will beat Tesla and be faster than any gas powered Hellcat and Camaro.

Not untrue.

It looks like a Subaru Impreza that got a Mustang makeover front and rear.   

Real Mustangs have two doors.

I recall a story about how in 1968, the Road Runner was selling so well, some of the guys at Plymouth wanted to add the Road Runner name to the 4 door and Station Wagon line.
I hear stories like this too often. It seems that there are a LOT of business minded auto executives with ZERO understanding of a performance name and a performance image. You can't slap an iconic name on a bland bastardized version of a hot selling car.

I don't question making the car at all.  Seems like a good idea.  I question the name.

Ford is committed to no more car type platforms so finding an SUV platform for something Mustang makes sense.  Unless the nameplate can sell enough units to justify its own platform I dont see it fitting their declared business model.

I been here before....https://www.autoblog.com/2019/11/18/ford-mustang-station-wagon-history

Quote from: Aero426 on November 20, 2019, 12:19:30 AM
It looks like a Subaru Impreza that got a Mustang makeover front and rear.   

Real Mustangs have two doors.

"A" pillar back resembles a Dodge Avenger.  (ignore door lowers...)

Quote from: JB400 on November 19, 2019, 10:03:59 PM
I think it's a smart move.  Tesla's are beating Hellcats.  If Ford wants to beat Tesla, there is no better Ford to do it with than Mustang.  Tesla doesn't build a 2 dr coupe, and suv's are selling.  It's rumored that the Mustang coupe is supposed to share a platform with a suv.  Maybe this is the suv.  If Mustang  coupe goes with an all electric option, that will beat Tesla and be faster than any gas powered Hellcat and Camaro.

They are clearly gunning for Tesla at the price point plopped squarely in Model 3 territory.     The go-faster GT is 40% less than a base Porsche Taycan.    The Tesla true believers won't buy the Mach E.  But buyers considering switching to a plug-in built by a real car company (and not in a tent) with a real service network will take a look at it.     

Call it    PINTO GT-E  ??? OR  G.E.               garbage electric ???  general electric???  another sad day in the auto world. :'( :brickwall:

Since the slightly cheaper (than a Model S) Tesla Model 3 came out a couple of months back you cant move for them here....saw three on my way to work today...two in the same street! Owners must be short sighted as they sure are ugly (at the front especially) comparted to the S....which isn't a bad looking car.

Quote from: Kern Dog on November 19, 2019, 08:13:21 PM

Quote from: Ponch ® on November 19, 2019, 12:43:25 PM
So, the Mustang Mach E.  Dont like Mustangs, dont like crossovers, and generally dont like Fords. But oddly im kinda into it.



Thoughts?   :stirthepot:

I am not surprised by this. At all.  

Yeah yeah we know. Bc I'm an elitist libtard homo and this car, along with the lack of separate drinking fountains, offends your "good ol days" sensibilities. What else ya got?

You can drink from whatever fountain that you want, man.

I wonder how much of the 2023 Mustang is being designed into the Mach E?

I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon, the government doesn't want to lose that fuel tax.

I doubt that will stop it...they will just make up the taxes elsewhere....like taxing electricity for transport use. You hardly pay any fuel tax compared to most developed nations anyway. Over here....where we pay some of the highest fuel tax in the world.... our government are still pushing full electrics cars forward (there is no future in hybrids)....they have no choice or we wont reach our agreed overall carbon reduction target that we (and most other countries....with one or two very large noticeable exceptions...LOL) signed up to.

In Canadakistan our government is hitting us with escalating carbon taxes (upon which we pay an additional federal tax) with the stated goal of getting us out of gasoline vehicles.  The thinking being that if they make in affordable to drive them, we will switch to sweet clean pure electric cars.

They are putting in new electric charging stations for electric cars here in Rhode Island,that are powered by diesel generators! Kinda defeats the purpose,but it will make the snowflakes feel like they are making a difference!

That cant be true surely??? Completely defeats the point. And with the losses you get from turning diesel into electricity its will cause more pollution than just putting it in the tank. Why would they do that???....do they not have electricity on Rhode island yet!!???

That's what they do here,they have been completely defying logic for hundreds of years!

There won't be any electric charging stations on Key Largo, since they are flooding out with sea water as it rises.....

Certain huge tides used to come and go, are now hanging around for many months.  Saw a few pics of the new garb: waders. 
One guy has a no wake zone sign by his house. 

Quote from: alfaitalia on November 29, 2019, 08:35:03 AM
That cant be true surely??? Completely defeats the point. And with the losses you get from turning diesel into electricity its will cause more pollution than just putting it in the tank. Why would they do that???....do they not have electricity on Rhode island yet!!???

That is funny, Alfie.
The generators are possibly in places where it isn't feasible to run a power line. Sometimes a parking lot is already paved and the cost to trench and repair the asphalt/concrete just isn't worth it.

 Who Really Cares. ? You won't have a say in it anyways.  :shruggy: :slap: :smilielol:

South Beach Miami after a few yards of sea rise.  Perhaps 2050-2075:

(https://archinect.imgix.net/uploads/cc/cc3f4a1b5f8686b56d2d136064c355c8.jpg?fit=crop&auto=compress%2Cformat&w=1200)

SEa levels rise 6 feet in 30 years?  :rofl: Who are you? AOC ??   :hah:
ALL the snow in the world could melt and the oceans wouldn't rise by more than 12 inches.
Try again.

  
Snow?  

The big water volume is locked up in polar icecaps and permafrost in the upper lattitudes.


Sea levels have fluctuated by hundreds of feet in the past.  (It's not disputed. Heck, we find ancient man-made structures lying dozens of yards underwater on a regular basis.)  If we get a few yards of rise in the next century, that would be pretty minor in the big picture.  In the last couple hundred years we have made a lot of rapid changes to the environment.  Also, the last several thousand years have been unusually stable in the big picture.      




Ever seen that AMC TV series 'The Terror'?  The one about the doomed northwest passage expedition in the 1840s?  

The first time a decent size ship EVER got through there was after WW2.  People had been trying since the 1500s, in hopes of claiming the prize that Christopher Columbus had originally set out for.  It proved to be an impossible task for centuries - like, just sailing across there ONCE was that difficult. 

And yet today the shipping industry is planning long-term for the Arctic ocean to be opened up to regular ship traffic in the coming decades.  Regular commercial freight traffic, possibly tourism, more access to oil/resources, etc.  WTF?  We're not talking about a bunch of 19yo hippies protesting in front of a college dorm.  They didn't start believing this because Al Gore made them feel guilty about driving SUVs.  This is cold hard business sense - they see a warming/thawing trend in our near/medium future.  It's big enough to cause some clear obvious changes to the planet.  

Whether it is happening or not, it is not going to be stopped by higher taxes or restricting the use of gasoline powered vehicles.
There will not be 6 feet of ocean rise anyway. With water covering 2/3 of the earth's surface, there isn't enough snow or ICE to melt to make it rise that much. Do you want to calculate what volume of water 6 feet is multiplied by 2/3 of the Earths surface???

Umm, I don't know where you are getting your data but the entire scientific establishment disagrees.  

Earth's sea levels have fluctuated hundreds of feet in the past.  This is the regular accepted view.   A couple million years ago (much hotter climate) the sea levels are estimated to have been 150 feet higher.  At the last ice age (only 12,000 years ago) the sea levels were 400 feet lower.  

This stuff goes on all the time, geologically speaking.  
There are currently large portions of Antarctica where the ice is piled up over a mile thick.  That continent is the size of North America.  That's a lot of water.  That water is piled up on land, not affecting current sea levels.  


There are many sites around the world that have obviously man-made structures sitting dozens/hundreds of feet underwater.  Go back a few tens of thousands of years, and these sites were on dry land.  (But they would have been close to the coastlines at the time - that's the standard place you would expect to find the heaviest human population in any era.)

This is just one example of the clear evidence that sea levels fluctuate wildly.  There is much more if you care to look into it.  
 
(https://www.sportdiver.com/sites/sportdiver.com/files/styles/500_1x_/public/images/2017/09/yonaguni-monument-japan.jpg?itok=iMD7Wmis&fc=50,50)

All the more reason to establish desalinization facilities at all coastal states. It would negate the problem of droughts.

          
Desalinization isn't a bad thing to attend to.  

But right now our civilization is so fucked up . . . it's hard for me to even think that big.  

The US/Canadian great lakes region is the biggest wad of concentrated clean fresh water on the planet.   And yet people in Flint and Cleveland (which are near/on the coasts) have life-wrecking lead poisoning problems for lack of decent water.  We cannot even be troubled to build a fucking pipe from the lake to their houses and make it clean/safe.  Meanwhile we allow huge cities to spring up in the middle of butt-ass-desert regions like Arizona & Nevada.  Then we wring our hands about the inadequate water supply when millions of people want the suburban house/pool/lawn experience there.  Zero sense.      

While I agree with Mike for the most part, facts favor KD's predictions.  We've had large fluctuations of sea levels in the past, with the amount of ice left, our sea levels aren't going to rise too much more.  The picture posted of a flooded Miami would be more likely from a storm surge.  A flooded out New Orleans or Venice would be more likely.  Seal levels will rise, and we will lose some coastal property, but I doubt as much as predicted.

Little factoid for you. Done by a mathematician not a climate scientist....allegedly!!

" If all the ice covering the Arctic, Antarctica , Greenland, and in mountain glaciers around the world were to melt, sea level would rise about 70 meters (230 feet). The ocean would cover all the coastal cities."

QuoteWhile I agree with Mike for the most part, facts favor KD's predictions.  We've had large fluctuations of sea levels in the past, with the amount of ice left, our sea levels aren't going to rise too much more.  The picture posted of a flooded Miami would be more likely from a storm surge.  A flooded out New Orleans or Venice would be more likely.  Seal levels will rise, and we will lose some coastal property, but I doubt as much as predicted.

The Miami pic that I posted is a photoshop extrapolation.  Not sure of the exact water level there.  Looks like only a few yards up from present.

I do agree that the scarier predictions about the next century may be overblown.  Or at least, "inaccurate." 

IIRC the data we are getting suggests the temp increases won't be evenly spaced.  There will be more warming at the poles and less warming in the warmer climates.  In English that means those of us in warmer climates won't feel much warming where we live.  But we will see more worldwide sea level rise and hear about more Arctic warming.   

One thing's for certain, every predicted climate apocalypse over the past 50 years has never come true.

Coming of the next ice age
The earth will run out of oil by 2011
Acid rain was going to pollute all of the Earth's water and kill all fish
The hole in the ozone layer was going to give us all cancer
Global warming wasn't happening, so the narrative was changed to "climate change"


And it's always the same tired old song; "we only have 10 years left".

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions

         
The earth never runs out of oil and the climate never goes catastrophe . . . sorta like how the classic car world never hits that wall and runs out of project cars.  Yeah, that's technically true, but don't tell me the situation has not been worsening. 

The dire climate predictions tend to get overblown.  Sometimes they are truly wrong.  Other times they get remembered for being 'wrong' when they were right but then some unforeseen issue changed the outcome.  (Example:  The effect of aircraft exhaust & other air pollution has caused a measurable amount of global "dimming" of sunlight.  That is offsetting some of the global warming we would otherwise be getting right now.)     

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on November 30, 2019, 07:17:16 PM
One thing's for certain, every predicted climate apocalypse over the past 50 years has never come true.

Coming of the next ice age
The earth will run out of oil by 2011
Acid rain was going to pollute all of the Earth's water and kill all fish
The hole in the ozone layer was going to give us all cancer
Global warming wasn't happening, so the narrative was changed to "climate change"


And it's always the same tired old song; "we only have 10 years left".

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions

I agree. Ted Danson said in 1990 ....."We only have ten years left to fix this, man..."
The idiot of the year, AOC says it is 12 years.
Who knows what Al Gore says. I don't  but he has made stupid predictions in the past.

The hypocrisy of all these people makes their doomsay claims even harder to swallow. They fly around in planes, have huge entourages and staffers and tell us to downsize and live simpler.....Uhh, yeah.
I will always resist efforts to change my behavior until I see evidence that it makes sense.

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on November 30, 2019, 07:17:16 PM
One thing's for certain, every predicted climate apocalypse over the past 50 years has never come true.

People have a tendency to have an over-inflated sense of self importance.

That's why so many apocalyptic predictions fall within the range of an individuals lifetime..... less than a blink of the eye in comparison to the age of the earth.

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on November 30, 2019, 02:46:08 AM

Earth's sea levels have fluctuated hundreds of feet in the past.  This is the regular accepted view.   A couple million years ago (much hotter climate) the sea levels are estimated to have been 150 feet higher.  At the last ice age (only 12,000 years ago) the sea levels were 400 feet lower.  

Yes, very interesting stuff, sea levels and climate fluctuation.

Looks much different when you take climate graphed over the last 200 or 1000 years and focus it out a hundred thousand or half a billion.

Guess what? the earth is going to warm,and the earth is going to cool again,and anything we do won't make a difference,we are just a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things! The Al Gores of the world are just techonolgy pimps,They have millions invested,and the snowflakes are buying the B.S. they are pimping! They got them believing that the sky is falling!

Here is just ONE example of the Hypocrisy of which I wrote:

          
I won't defend Bernie's tax plans, but he's not a rich guy in the big scheme.  Somebody who has spent decades in congress, and only recently got a few million dollars in the bank after selling a book?  That's very little wealth for his situation.  

Seriously - a few million?  That's a nice 2-story house in a nice US city + putting some kids through college without debt + retiring at 65 with good insurance.  There was a time when that didn't sound so wildly rich in America.  


Nancy Pelosi has stacked up something like $100 million during a career in D.C. (and never written a book that anyone wanted to read).  Pick on her.  
       

She is a turd as well. Most on that side are. My gripe is with hypocrisy.
As much as I disliked the policies of CA Governor Jerry Brown, he was fiscally conservative. He was not a tax and spend type. He was tighter with money than almost anyone in the GOP. I respected that he was true to his word.
A hypocrite is a terrible thing. If these people ever lived by the same rules that they try to push on us, they'd see why they are met with such resistance.

News Clip Linked Coal to Climate Change — 106 Years Ago Today (107 now)


(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/EUdrT5rtXLMUjKswACe7uD-650-80.png)


The key sentence;The effect MAY be considerable in a few centuries.


https://www.livescience.com/63334-coal-affecting-climate-century-ago.html

Well he was right.....very advanced thinking for the time though.

How does one measure the weight of ll the carbon dioxide in the world if it's so light that it floats up into the atmosphere and does it eventually float down or does it stay up there forever?    :shruggy:

You cant measure the weight....only the mass. Example...you might "weigh" 200lb stood on the scales in your bathroom but you wont "weigh" anything in space....but your mass is exactly the same.

Take a lump of coal in a controlled setting, burn it, and capture the gases in a fancy machine that tells you the percentage of gases in the exhaust.  That percentage is the weight.

You know something is wrong with these environmentalists/degrowther zealots when they want people to also stop eating meat and kill off all cow/beef population in an effort to prevent cow farts from polluting the atmosphere.

When you realize that the environmental movement is more about government control than saving the planet, it all makes sense.

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 01, 2019, 02:05:27 PM
You know something is wrong with these environmentalists/degrowther zealots when they want people to also stop eating meat and kill off all cow/beef population in an effort to prevent cow farts from polluting the atmosphere.

When you realize that the environmental movement is more about government control than saving the planet, it all makes sense.

and at the other side of the spectrum, they think a Starbucks cup is the end of Christmas. Or a guy taking a knee is disrespecting the military but calling a decorated Lt Col a political pawn/ foreign asset or a former POW "not a hero" is totes ok.  :shruggy:

Time for a song break!

Remember Atlantis, by Donovan?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AUEjzVQwKo

Quote from: Ponch ® on December 02, 2019, 12:29:44 PM

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 01, 2019, 02:05:27 PM
You know something is wrong with these environmentalists/degrowther zealots when they want people to also stop eating meat and kill off all cow/beef population in an effort to prevent cow farts from polluting the atmosphere.

When you realize that the environmental movement is more about government control than saving the planet, it all makes sense.

and at the other side of the spectrum, they think a Starbucks cup is the end of Christmas. Or a guy taking a knee is disrespecting the military but calling a decorated Lt Col a political pawn/ foreign asset or a former POW "not a hero" is totes ok.  :shruggy:

Those are topics that are completely unrelated.

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 02, 2019, 01:12:23 PM

Quote from: Ponch ® on December 02, 2019, 12:29:44 PM

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 01, 2019, 02:05:27 PM
You know something is wrong with these environmentalists/degrowther zealots when they want people to also stop eating meat and kill off all cow/beef population in an effort to prevent cow farts from polluting the atmosphere.

When you realize that the environmental movement is more about government control than saving the planet, it all makes sense.

and at the other side of the spectrum, they think a Starbucks cup is the end of Christmas. Or a guy taking a knee is disrespecting the military but calling a decorated Lt Col a political pawn/ foreign asset or a former POW "not a hero" is totes ok.  :shruggy:

Those are topics that are completely unrelated.

government control,hypocrisy. That kinda thing.

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 01, 2019, 02:05:27 PM
You know something is wrong with these environmentalists/degrowther zealots when they want people to also stop eating meat and kill off all cow/beef population in an effort to prevent cow farts from polluting the atmosphere.

When you realize that the environmental movement is more about government control than saving the planet, it all makes sense.

We Should do away with goat and sheep eating scum. Goats and sheep fart a lot more than cows and pigs.

I hope that  was a joke....not always easy to tell on here....in case you haven't noticed the vast majority of Muslims are piece loving, hard working members of society...the Koran says that is how they should live their lives. Don't forget that Jesus is their "vice captain" for want of a better word so they believe a lots of what Christians believe. Don't confuse Muslims with ISIS...nothing like the same. And yes I have some good "Muzzy" friends and many Brits do. You let yourself and country down saying that crap..But I also believe that the UK is one of the most racially and religiously tollerant counties in the world and I'm proud of that (even after the recent attacks in London at the weekend) ..rant over! :nana:

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 02, 2019, 02:44:05 PM
I hope that  was a joke....not always easy to tell on here....in case you haven't noticed the vast majority of Muslims are piece loving, hard working members of society...the Koran says that is how they should live their lives. Don't forget that Jesus is their "vice captain" for want of a better word so they believe a lots of what Christians believe. Don't confuse Muslims with ISIS...nothing like the same. And yes I have some good "Muzzy" friends and many Brits do. You let yourself and country down saying that crap..But I also believe that the UK is one of the most racially and religiously tollerant counties in the world and I'm proud of that (even after the recent attacks in London at the weekend) ..rant over! :nana:

In other words, not all members of "the religion of peace" are terrorists, but most all terrorists are members of "the religion of peace".

They are members of "their version" of the religion of peace...not the one in the Koran.....a bit like Jehovahs witnesses or Scientologists area member of the Christian faith.........lol. Unfortunately a tiny minority or "Muslims" have very long memories and are still a bit upset about our Crusader Kights going to their counties to kill them for no reason whatsoever a few hundred years back!

If I gave you a sandwich that was 97% ham and 3% poison, would you eat it anyway?

            
Depends.  What's the average poison content in the rest of the food in my pantry?  And how does the beneficial nutrition compare between them?  


IIRC the American illegal immigrant population (as a whole) obeys the laws better than the native population does.  The legal immigrant population obeys MUCH better than the natives.  I don't know the figures for Muslim immigrants more specifically.    

 

Kern Dog.

If a white American Christian average guy shot up a school (which sadly happens way to often over there)....would you have the hate for all white American Christians.....I think not. Double standards with a hint if racism i think!  :yesnod:

Nah....Just because you Europeans have been led down the path of accepting the human trash as immigrants....that is no reason for me to willingly accept them here.
Not all Muslims are terrorists but it sure seems that ALL terrorists here have worn diapers on their heads and pledged allegiance to their bullshit beliefs of 10 year old wives and goat screwing.
I don't mind Sikhs and Hindus, Jewish, Baptist, Protestants and Lutherans because they don't kill those that think differently.
If the dirty bastards want to shit all over their land in the sand, so what....BUT when these perverted assclowns fly planes into Big Ben  or the Eiffel Tower, you'll change your tune immediately.

They have done many attacks on the UK and Europe and the far East (including one on London Bridge last weekend....."only" two dead there though) .....just not on the massive scale they hit you guys (some large casualty numbers on mainland Europe though)....and no we still don't hate Muslims but we hate ISIS. Just got to remember that ISIS are NOT true Muslims....if they were they would not do the things they do. It was not the Muslim faith that attacked you at was ISIS. And you can partially blame your own leaders for that one. Don't forget the Saddam Hossain was keeping ISIS down and fairly under control until you decided to attack him to (A) defend your interests in Kuwaiti oil supplies and (B) because of made up intel (lol) on WMDs that he did not have....and we (Brits) were stupid enough to believe it or we would have never been involved in Gulf War 2. After that and the Afgan conflict which pushed the Taliban to become even more extreme, ISIS were pretty much free to act as they pleased....at great cost to the rest of the World. Its obviously not quite as black and white as that......but posts like the above don't help anyone. We probably have Muslim members....or members married to Muslims.....

I knew you were to the right KD.....but I did not have you down as quite so far right wing!!


.....anyway this is well off piste and heading for thread lock I would think. Im off to order a Tesla S!

The Tragedy of Cultural Relativism


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUXteUGhh7w&feature=youtu.be

The scary thing is that people believe this shit....what about all the girls (of all races) killed, shot and/or raped by white (possibly Amercan) guys that were born and raised as Christians. Its easy to find individual cases like this to justify being a racist ....like that guy in the video!!!

Obviously racism and religious intolerance (Muslim is not a race of course) seems to be acceptable to a lot of you guys on here....so I guess I'm wasting my breath....Il leave you to it!!! :lol:

 
There's a list of domestic US terrorism done by right-wing white guys.   Many incidents where somebody shot into random groups of people for political motives.  Let's keep it real here.  


Muslims aren't the safest group either.  But their numbers don't look nearly as bad if you drop 9/11 from the data - as bad as it was, it was an anomaly.  There has been nothing else remotely comparable for decades before or since.  

And the truth is, 9/11 became A LOT worse because of events outside of Osama's control.  Those WTC towers were specifically designed to withstand airliner hits.  The buildings weren't supposed to fall or even get their elevators blocked.  The engineers & safety planners were all surprised when TSHTF like it did.  That's what caused 80-90% of the death & destruction on 9/11.        

--------------------------------

Are right-wing white guys more dangerous than Muslims?  I didn't say that.  I haven't studied the matter.  But both groups do have track records of killing sprees.  IMO neither one has too much room to point fingers at the other.  For every one 9/11 attack or Oklahoma City bombing, there are several other smaller shootings that kill 3 or 8 or 15 people.    

One fuel chain in Canada has declared its intention to begin establishing charging stations from end of the country to the other so you can drive coast to coast. 

Quote from: Kern Dog on December 02, 2019, 07:02:24 PM
If I gave you a sandwich that was 97% ham and 3% poison, would you eat it anyway?

We know there is a link to eating red meat and colon cancer.   Would you eat a burger?

Automotive catalytic converters make cyanide gas.  Would you breath the air by the road?
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1740945?seq=1

Just sayin', you makes yer choices and takes yer chances!    :yesnod:

:cheers:

Quote from: Kern Dog on December 03, 2019, 03:13:26 AM
Nah....Just because you Europeans have been led down the path of accepting the human trash as immigrants....that is no reason for me to willingly accept them here.
Not all Muslims are terrorists but it sure seems that ALL terrorists here have worn diapers on their heads and pledged allegiance to their bullshit beliefs of 10 year old wives and goat screwing.
I don't mind Sikhs and Hindus, Jewish, Baptist, Protestants and Lutherans because they don't kill those that think differently.
If the dirty bastards want to shit all over their land in the sand, so what....BUT when these perverted assclowns fly planes into Big Ben  or the Eiffel Tower, you'll change your tune immediately.

It's been said that todays terrorism is payback for The Crusades.

Yeah, look that up!!    Centuries of mass killing.     The usual: my religion is right and your religion is wrong theme! 

I find it odd that, overall, religion is responsible for so many deaths in human history.

Quote from: Kern Dog on December 02, 2019, 07:02:24 PM
If I gave you a sandwich that was 97% ham and 3% poison, would you eat it anyway?

What percentage are those dudes in white hoods that burn crosses in the name of jesus or something?  :shruggy:

Quote from: Ghoste on December 03, 2019, 06:54:20 AM
One fuel chain in Canada has declared its intention to begin establishing charging stations from end of the country to the other so you can drive coast to coast. 

Now that would cost a lot.....they must think there is enough of a future....and enough profit in it (these are serious money making companies after all....not charities!) to justify all that expense. Mind you....saying and doing it are very different things!!

Suddenly, it's 1974.   Long lines at the "pump" Thanksgiving weekend. 

Quote from: odcics2 on December 03, 2019, 07:57:01 AM

Quote from: Kern Dog on December 03, 2019, 03:13:26 AM
Nah....Just because you Europeans have been led down the path of accepting the human trash as immigrants....that is no reason for me to willingly accept them here.
Not all Muslims are terrorists but it sure seems that ALL terrorists here have worn diapers on their heads and pledged allegiance to their bullshit beliefs of 10 year old wives and goat screwing.
I don't mind Sikhs and Hindus, Jewish, Baptist, Protestants and Lutherans because they don't kill those that think differently.
If the dirty bastards want to shit all over their land in the sand, so what....BUT when these perverted assclowns fly planes into Big Ben  or the Eiffel Tower, you'll change your tune immediately.

It's been said that todays terrorism is payback for The Crusades.


I believe that the Crusades were to get the Muslims out of the land that they had infiltrated.

Yeah, look that up!!    Centuries of mass killing.     The usual: my religion is right and your religion is wrong theme!  

I find it odd that, overall, religion is responsible for so many deaths in human history.

I believe that the Crusades were to get the Muslims out of the land that they had infiltrated.

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 03, 2019, 05:08:59 AM
The scary thing is that people believe this shit....what about all the girls (of all races) killed, shot and/or raped by white (possibly Amercan) guys that were born and raised as Christians. Its easy to find individual cases like this to justify being a racist ....like that guy in the video!!!

Obviously racism and religious intolerance (Muslim is not a race of course) seems to be acceptable to a lot of you guys on here....so I guess I'm wasting my breath....Il leave you to it!!! :lol:

What the video is really about is naive dopey do-gooders who refuse to believe that some people are bad. 

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 03, 2019, 01:11:52 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 03, 2019, 05:08:59 AM
The scary thing is that people believe this shit....what about all the girls (of all races) killed, shot and/or raped by white (possibly Amercan) guys that were born and raised as Christians. Its easy to find individual cases like this to justify being a racist ....like that guy in the video!!!

Obviously racism and religious intolerance (Muslim is not a race of course) seems to be acceptable to a lot of you guys on here....so I guess I'm wasting my breath....Il leave you to it!!! :lol:

What the video is really about is naive dopey do-gooders who refuse to believe that some people are bad. 

Very fine people on both sides?

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 03, 2019, 04:42:48 AM


I knew you were to the right KD.....but I did not have you down as quite so far right wing!!

Define what YOU think is right wing...
I am actually pretty middle ground ...at least where the middle WAS before this election cycle when the left went WAY left.
I don't mind legal immigrants that join and assimilate. I do not care for those that move here and refuse to adapt to traditional American principles and standards.

Quote from: Kern Dog on December 03, 2019, 02:47:45 PM
I do not care for those that move here and refuse to adapt to traditional American principles and standards.

But how does what they do or don't do affect YOU?

More of your Liberal bullshit?
THis isn't the fucking united nations of America. It is the United States. If you want to be a dedicated Muslim, have at it....in the fucking sand 5000 miles away. This is America. Insanity left unchecked will spread and these worthless assholes will breed and grow in numbers. Births, new lawless immigrants and soon you have terrorists in hiding, assholes like Ilhan Omar, the brother-fucker that shows to be far more harm than good...holding a political office that she would have NEVER held if not for a growing population of like minded zealots.
Fuck that.

Quote from: Kern Dog on December 03, 2019, 03:33:46 PM
More of your Liberal bullshit?
THis isn't the fucking united nations of America. It is the United States. If you want to be a dedicated Muslim, have at it....in the fucking sand 5000 miles away. This is America.
Fuck that.

Oh the irony. :smilielol:

The melting pot is full.   

But what % will drive electric cars is what I want to know?

Quote from: odcics2 on December 04, 2019, 09:45:35 AM


The melting pot is full.   

Agreed.

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 04, 2019, 09:53:59 AM

Quote from: odcics2 on December 04, 2019, 09:45:35 AM


The melting pot is full.  

Agreed.

too late. we're already taking over. Kern Dog's gonna love it.

Quote from: b5blue on December 04, 2019, 09:48:37 AM
But what % will drive electric cars is what I want to know?

:woohoo:

Quote from: Ponch ® on December 04, 2019, 12:25:17 PM

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 04, 2019, 09:53:59 AM

Quote from: odcics2 on December 04, 2019, 09:45:35 AM


The melting pot is full.   

Agreed.

too late. we're already taking over.

Doesn't matter, I thought the world was ending in 10 years anyway??  :smilielol:

......true.....but they said that ten years ago next Thursday!! :lol:

Quote from: timmycharger on December 04, 2019, 12:37:25 PM


Doesn't matter, I thought the world was ending in 10 years anyway??  :smilielol:

That's the recurring deadline that they come out with every few years. According to this 2009 doomsday propaganda which ABC dubbed "an unprecedented television and Internet event", half of us should all be dead already.    ::)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8ZGy_QxrqE

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 04, 2019, 01:58:59 PM

Quote from: timmycharger on December 04, 2019, 12:37:25 PM


Doesn't matter, I thought the world was ending in 10 years anyway??  :smilielol:

That's the recurring deadline that they come out with every few years. According to this 2009 doomsday propaganda which ABC dubbed "an unprecedented television and Internet event", half of us should all be dead already.    ::)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8ZGy_QxrqE

HAHA!!

How dare you!!!

Quote from: timmycharger on December 04, 2019, 12:37:25 PM

Quote from: Ponch ® on December 04, 2019, 12:25:17 PM

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 04, 2019, 09:53:59 AM

Quote from: odcics2 on December 04, 2019, 09:45:35 AM


The melting pot is full.   

Agreed.

too late. we're already taking over.

Doesn't matter, I thought the world was ending in 10 years anyway??  :smilielol:

Yes, and they're also coming for our guns and Kern Dog will be forced to become a sex slave to a Gay Mafia higher up until America becomes a Muslim theocracy full of mongrel people.

Quote from: timmycharger on December 04, 2019, 02:09:41 PM

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 04, 2019, 01:58:59 PM

Quote from: timmycharger on December 04, 2019, 12:37:25 PM


Doesn't matter, I thought the world was ending in 10 years anyway??  :smilielol:

That's the recurring deadline that they come out with every few years. According to this 2009 doomsday propaganda which ABC dubbed "an unprecedented television and Internet event", half of us should all be dead already.    ::)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8ZGy_QxrqE

HAHA!!

How dare you!!!

 :smilielol:

Good one man..  :cheers:

then again we live in a world where Putin is a good guy and our otherwise revered intelligence and law enforcement agencies are untrustworthy liars so... :shruggy:

wow so refreshing to hear a Russia reference.. you sir have broken new ground. Congrats!

Quote from: timmycharger on December 04, 2019, 03:42:58 PM
wow so refreshing to hear a Russia reference.. you sir have broken new ground. Congrats!

Exactly. Nothing to see here.

Quote from: Ponch ® on December 03, 2019, 01:55:11 PM

Very fine people on both sides?

Quote from: Ponch ® on December 04, 2019, 03:18:56 PM
then again we live in a world where Putin is a good guy and our otherwise revered intelligence and law enforcement agencies are untrustworthy liars so... :shruggy:

Since this is the direction you want to go......



(https://scontent.fbos1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/45342152_2172575913003490_6172778262540845056_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ohc=8mORIwAn_dkAQmk5Ng3FvVotkqVTka2zrPqO9rebvWkARdw7NaKz4taAw&_nc_ht=scontent.fbos1-2.fna&oh=b31712d7fcf4f6b7060cd90abbc7fc5e&oe=5E76DC5E)

so triggered... :smilielol:

I mean, the word association thread is in the OT forum, but whatever comes to mind...

Quote from: Ponch ® on December 04, 2019, 05:04:35 PM
so triggered... :smilielol:

I mean, the word association thread is in the OT forum, but whatever comes to mind...

You're the one who makes not so veiled political comments in this thread, and you call me triggered?

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/sHiIZxze6yos8/source.gif)

Quote from: Ponch ® on December 04, 2019, 04:37:56 PM
Nothing to see here.

THis sounds more like something that you say to the guys when your underwear comes off.

Quote from: Ponch ® on December 04, 2019, 02:57:53 PM

too late. we're already taking over.

Who the fuck is we?

Quote from: Lennard on December 04, 2019, 07:17:53 PM

Quote from: Ponch ® on December 04, 2019, 02:57:53 PM

too late. we're already taking over.

Who the fuck is we?

The quote below & rainbow rebel flag avatar might very well be a not to subtle hint.   

Quote from: Ponch ® on November 20, 2019, 11:59:27 AM
I'm an elitist libtard homo

Oh damn!  :scared:

I wonder if the topic has proven that electric cars have little to do with market demand and a great deal to do with politics?

Quote from: Ghoste on December 05, 2019, 06:28:05 AM
I wonder if the topic has proven that electric cars have little to do with market demand and a great deal to do with politics?

They are actually welfare-mobiles. Without government subsidies for hybrid & electric cars, they wouldn't be where they are today. Add to that, full electric cars are not paying any road tax at all.

Quote from: Ghoste on December 05, 2019, 06:28:05 AM
I wonder if the topic has proven that electric cars have little to do with market demand and a great deal to do with politics?

Not sure if you're joking or serious.

My son is a Penn State business school grad.  Several years ago when he was still attending, we were discussing one of his classes and started discussing the "supply and demand" economic model.  He said that they discussed briefly how that model used to work.  He said that "old" model no longer works and is no longer taught because of the level of government meddling that drastically skews the "old" model.

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 05, 2019, 06:57:28 AM

Quote from: Ghoste on December 05, 2019, 06:28:05 AM
I wonder if the topic has proven that electric cars have little to do with market demand and a great deal to do with politics?

They are actually welfare-mobiles. Without government subsidies for hybrid & electric cars, they wouldn't be where they are today. Add to that, full electric cars are not paying any road tax at all.

It will be fun (and likely depressing) to watch how the feds and states start taxing EVs  

People like to complain about the cost of gasoline, and the petro companies screwing everyone, but consider for a movement that Pennsylvania make 2x to 3x what Exxon makes on a gallon of gasoline.  The state alone will have to recover the billions of $ in lost gasoline tax revenue somehow.

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 05, 2019, 06:57:28 AM

Quote from: Ghoste on December 05, 2019, 06:28:05 AM
I wonder if the topic has proven that electric cars have little to do with market demand and a great deal to do with politics?

They are actually welfare-mobiles. Without government subsidies for hybrid & electric cars, they wouldn't be where they are today. Add to that, full electric cars are not paying any road tax at all.

EVs pay tax over here....why not? ...they wear out the road as much as any other vehicle!!

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 05, 2019, 07:42:39 AM


EVs pay tax over here....why not? ...they wear out the road as much as any other vehicle!!

And that's a good thing. If/when they do tax them here, they should all be taxed retroactively.

  
The US govt would probably tax EVs per miles driven to simulate gasoline taxes.  That means they are checking your odometer regularly and it's tax fraud if they think you messed with it.  Big Brother, here we come.      

Why do anything so elaborate....just tax it at the charging point.

 I know i'm deviating  from the original topic , but all this push for electric cars , has anyone government ? tree huggers ? eco people ? recycling fanatics and .....  thought about
all the millions  of miles travelled by  Jet planes &  the pollution they produce with the  tones &  tones of  Jet fuel they burn while every minute they are in the air  or even idling  or what ever the terminology is in aircraft speak  :P surly its double standards , internal combustion engines are the devils creation & jet air craft are well ...
maybe they might start inventing battery powered  jet aeroplanes  ;)

Quote from: tan top on December 05, 2019, 09:05:59 AM
I know i'm deviating  from the original topic , but all this push for electric cars , has anyone government ? tree huggers ? eco people ? recycling fanatics and .....  thought about
all the millions  of miles travelled by  Jet planes &  the pollution they produce with the  tones &  tones of  Jet fuel they burn while every minute they are in the air  or even idling  or what ever the terminology is in aircraft speak  :P surly its double standards , internal combustion engines are the devils creation & jet air craft are well ...
maybe they might start inventing battery powered  jet aeroplanes  ;)

Can't forget about boats, military vehicles, farming & home heating for homes and petroleum that goes into manufacturing such things as plastics.

Another discussion that could be had would be about the environmental impact of mining for rare earth metals needed for electric motors, generator magnets & batteries. When you look at total production, electric vehicles are anything but "clean".

QuoteWhy do anything so elaborate....just tax it at the charging point.

1.  People will want to plug them up at home, etc.  

2.  Govt loves to control/monitor their citizens by default.  They always drift in that direction whether it's conscious or unconscious.

QuoteI know i'm deviating  from the original topic , but all this push for electric cars , has anyone government ? tree huggers ? eco people ? recycling fanatics and .....  thought about
all the millions  of miles travelled by  Jet planes &  the pollution they produce with the  tones &  tones of  Jet fuel they burn while every minute they are in the air  or even idling  or what ever the terminology is in aircraft speak  Tongue surly its double standards , internal combustion engines are the devils creation & jet air craft are well ...
maybe they might start inventing battery powered  jet aeroplanes  

Aircraft have to be lightweight.  That means they need the energy density of fossil fuels to do long trips.  

It takes hundred of pounds of batteries to carry as much raw energy as a couple gallons of gas.  Gasoline is 6 lbs per gallon.  

Quote from: tan top on December 05, 2019, 09:05:59 AM
I know i'm deviating  from the original topic , but all this push for electric cars , has anyone government ? tree huggers ? eco people ? recycling fanatics and .....  thought about
all the millions  of miles travelled by  Jet planes &  the pollution they produce with the  tones &  tones of  Jet fuel they burn while every minute they are in the air  or even idling  or what ever the terminology is in aircraft speak  :P surly its double standards , internal combustion engines are the devils creation & jet air craft are well ...
maybe they might start inventing battery powered  jet aeroplanes  ;)

Great example of this..

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news/f1/lewis-hamilton-become-carbon-neutral-f1-plans-cut-environmental-impact


Not knocking F1, been watching for 30 years but really? this guy flies around the world for races, nevermind the team with the cars, equipment, etc...

talk about double standards...

Quote from: timmycharger on December 05, 2019, 09:41:12 AM

Quote from: tan top on December 05, 2019, 09:05:59 AM
I know i'm deviating  from the original topic , but all this push for electric cars , has anyone government ? tree huggers ? eco people ? recycling fanatics and .....  thought about
all the millions  of miles travelled by  Jet planes &  the pollution they produce with the  tones &  tones of  Jet fuel they burn while every minute they are in the air  or even idling  or what ever the terminology is in aircraft speak  :P surly its double standards , internal combustion engines are the devils creation & jet air craft are well ...
maybe they might start inventing battery powered  jet aeroplanes  ;)

Great example of this..

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news/f1/lewis-hamilton-become-carbon-neutral-f1-plans-cut-environmental-impact


Not knocking F1, been watching for 30 years but really? this guy flies around the world for races, nevermind the team with the cars, equipment, etc...

talk about double standards...

So many high profile greenies are of the "do as I say, not as I do" mindset.

I don't believe it is "when" or "if" Electric vehicles take over.... as much as I do believe Carbon "pricing" will dominate globally, as we see the effect of climate change become more and more severe and begin to reduce ghg emissions.

Not going to get into whether anyone does or doesn't believe in man-made climate change from burning Fossil Fuels.... that's your choice to believe whatever you want I guess ?
same as it is my choice to believe what I wish....
based on living rurally here in Canada and seeing the effects first hand, and happening much faster than any "predictions" I've seen ?

Anyways,
I believe Carbon Pricing will eventually relegate Fossil Fuels as too expensive, both from a monetary and carbon/climate based perspective as ghg Emissions aren't "free" anymore ?
with sub-1 litre internal combustion commuter box engines supplementing primarily Electric drive trains in Vehicles, especially in under 100 mile commuter ranges.

The Electric Technology is here, and IMO will eventually dominate.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50460241

Here in Quebecstan the electric cars are getting popular. The Quebec government are talking about imposing a road tax on all vehicles for miles driven per year. They say they will remove it from the tax at the pump(YA RIGHT)
Didnt say the motivation behind this but im sure they are predicting too many electric cars and a loss of tax money.

Be a longgggggggg time for me before id even consider an electric car. Considering the Tesla model 3 is supposedly the high end mobile.

Here is a test at -18C on a fill charge 120 miles with 50 miles remaining estimated. The guy said he figured actually 20 left as the car was saying 260 miles estimated from the get go. This is on a new car. Imagine 3-5 years old after 100's of charges. Range progably be less than 50 miles in the cold.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrEeWAqEMAU&t=4s

A double standard of what?

Quote from: BSB67 on December 05, 2019, 01:13:43 PM
A double standard of what?

I reference the double standard that an elite F1 driver has where on one hand, he preaches on twitter about being vegan and banning plastic and going carbon neutral and then jumps in his private plane to race around the world along with his team and the equipment burning ridiculous amounts of fuel. 

If he was so worried about being carbon neutral, shouldn't he quit being an F1 driver and forfeit his multi million dollar contract?


Is that the wrong use of the term double standard?

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 05, 2019, 11:13:48 AM
I don't believe it is "when" or "if" Electric vehicles take over.... as much as I do believe Carbon "pricing" will dominate globally, as we see the effect of climate change become more and more severe and begin to reduce ghg emissions.

Not going to get into whether anyone does or doesn't believe in man-made climate change from burning Fossil Fuels.... that's your choice to believe whatever you want I guess ?
same as it is my choice to believe what I wish....
based on living rurally here in Canada and seeing the effects first hand, and happening much faster than any "predictions" I've seen ?

Anyways,
I believe Carbon Pricing will eventually relegate Fossil Fuels as too expensive, both from a monetary and carbon/climate based perspective as ghg Emissions aren't "free" anymore ?
with sub-1 litre internal combustion commuter box engines supplementing primarily Electric drive trains in Vehicles, especially in under 100 mile commuter ranges.

The Electric Technology is here, and IMO will eventually dominate.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50460241

Carbon pricing is just a made up new way to tax. If the burning of fossil fuels is so bad, what else besides cars is going to be hit with carbon pricing? Just wait till you go out to dinner and get hit with a carbon tax for your cooked meal and the heat in the restaurant.    ::)

Quote from: timmycharger on December 05, 2019, 01:17:56 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on December 05, 2019, 01:13:43 PM
A double standard of what?

I reference the double standard that an elite F1 driver has where on one hand, he preaches on twitter about being vegan and banning plastic and going carbon neutral and then jumps in his private plane to race around the world along with his team and the equipment burning ridiculous amounts of fuel. 

If he was so worried about being carbon neutral, shouldn't he quit being an F1 driver and forfeit his multi million dollar contract?


Is that the wrong use of the term double standard?

To tan top.

    
IIRC the US miltiary burns more carbon than any other organization/industry on earth.  The cleanup effort isn't real until they are making significant cuts. 

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on December 05, 2019, 01:29:47 PM
   
IIRC the US miltiary burns more carbon than any other organization/industry on earth.  The cleanup effort isn't real until they are making significant cuts. 

And the efforts of the military, and the whole United States won't mean anything if the world's biggest polluters don't clean themselves up.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/most-polluted-countries/

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 05, 2019, 01:38:21 PM

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on December 05, 2019, 01:29:47 PM
   
IIRC the US miltiary burns more carbon than any other organization/industry on earth.  The cleanup effort isn't real until they are making significant cuts. 

And the efforts of the military, and the whole United States won't mean anything if the world's biggest polluters don't clean themselves up.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/most-polluted-countries/

China and Russia are the dirtiest.  When it comes to human waste in the Ocean, Mexico must come in first.

 :2thumbs:
Canada is #6 on the list for cleanest air  :yesnod: :yesnod:

Australia - average PM 2.5 concentration: 5.7
Brunei - 6.6
New Zealand - 6.8
Estonia - 7.2
Finland - 7.3
Canada - 7.5
Iceland - 8.2
Sweden - 8.7
Ireland - 8.8
Liberia - 9.3

Quote from: BSB67 on December 05, 2019, 01:22:47 PM

Quote from: timmycharger on December 05, 2019, 01:17:56 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on December 05, 2019, 01:13:43 PM
A double standard of what?

I reference the double standard that an elite F1 driver has where on one hand, he preaches on twitter about being vegan and banning plastic and going carbon neutral and then jumps in his private plane to race around the world along with his team and the equipment burning ridiculous amounts of fuel.  

If he was so worried about being carbon neutral, shouldn't he quit being an F1 driver and forfeit his multi million dollar contract?


Is that the wrong use of the term double standard?

To tan top.

 
well IMO  there is all this  talk how  we have got to save the environment  fossil fuels are bad  , but nothing is done about air travel  or any of the other polluting devices !  every one backs & uses air travel, & don't think it even enters the head of  the people who say cars with their internal combustion engines are bad , imo think cutting down & destroying rain forests & large numbers of trees around the world is doing more damage .
i think globel warming is just  natural progression of the world , ice caps melting ! yes but that's what ice does eventually !  wasn't there a discovery recently that millions of years ago, Antarctic was tropical before the ice , apparently due to the type of  fossilized tree & plant remains were discovered there only because of the melting ice .  

if your going to do away with internal combustion engines  , you need to stop everything else that pollutes ,  
yes I agree that there is scientific reports whats causing global warming , but  any & all manufacturing processes contribute to it in some way even guy having a fire in their back yard  or burning wood / coal  for heating ,   two stroke chain saws & mowers  firework displays  new years eve , where do you stop.  modern cars now are pretty clean burning compare to ole muscle cars , two stroke engines garden waste burning & firework smoke even walking  close to someone smoking  in the street affects an asthma sufferer more than a modern cars exhaust fumes, imo diesels different story

Quote from: tan top on December 05, 2019, 02:09:15 PM




 
well IMO  there is all this  talk how  we have got to save the environment  fossil fuels are bad  , but nothing is done about air travel  or any of the other polluting devices !  every one backs & uses air travel, & don't think it even enters the head of  the people who say cars with their internal combustion engines are bad , imo think cutting down & destroying rain forests & large numbers of trees around the world is doing more damage .
i think globel warming is just  natural progression of the world , ice caps melting ! yes but that's what ice does eventually !  wasn't there a discovery recently that millions of years ago, Antarctic was tropical before the ice , apparently due to the type of  fossilized tree & plant remains were discovered there only because of the melting ice .  

if your going to do away with internal combustion engines  , you need to stop everything else that pollutes ,  
yes I agree that there is scientific reports whats causing global warming , but  any & all manufacturing processes contribute to it in some way even guy having a fire in their back yard  or burning wood / coal  for heating ,   two stroke chain saws & mowers  firework displays  new years eve , where do you stop.
 

Wow, I'm not used to seeing a Tan Top post without any pictures!     :lol:

Quote from: BSB67 on December 05, 2019, 07:18:15 AM


People like to complain about the cost of gasoline, and the petro companies screwing everyone, but consider for a movement that Pennsylvania make 2x to 3x what Exxon makes on a gallon of gasoline.  The state alone will have to recover the billions of $ in lost gasoline tax revenue somehow.

It is like that here in California as well. The government makes more on the product than the company producing the product.
That is criminal. It is essentially a legitimized Mafia strong arm tactic.

Quote from: tan top on December 05, 2019, 02:09:15 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on December 05, 2019, 01:22:47 PM

Quote from: timmycharger on December 05, 2019, 01:17:56 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on December 05, 2019, 01:13:43 PM
A double standard of what?

I reference the double standard that an elite F1 driver has where on one hand, he preaches on twitter about being vegan and banning plastic and going carbon neutral and then jumps in his private plane to race around the world along with his team and the equipment burning ridiculous amounts of fuel.  

If he was so worried about being carbon neutral, shouldn't he quit being an F1 driver and forfeit his multi million dollar contract?


Is that the wrong use of the term double standard?

To tan top.

 
well IMO  there is all this  talk how  we have got to save the environment  fossil fuels are bad  , but nothing is done about air travel  or any of the other polluting devices !  every one backs & uses air travel, & don't think it even enters the head of  the people who say cars with their internal combustion engines are bad , imo think cutting down & destroying rain forests & large numbers of trees around the world is doing more damage .
i think globel warming is just  natural progression of the world , ice caps melting ! yes but that's what ice does eventually !  wasn't there a discovery recently that millions of years ago, Antarctic was tropical before the ice , apparently due to the type of  fossilized tree & plant remains were discovered there only because of the melting ice .  

if your going to do away with internal combustion engines  , you need to stop everything else that pollutes ,  
yes I agree that there is scientific reports whats causing global warming , but  any & all manufacturing processes contribute to it in some way even guy having a fire in their back yard  or burning wood / coal  for heating ,   two stroke chain saws & mowers  firework displays  new years eve , where do you stop.  modern cars now are pretty clean burning compare to ole muscle cars , two stroke engines garden waste burning & firework smoke even walking  close to someone smoking  in the street affects an asthma sufferer more than a modern cars exhaust fumes, imo diesels different story

Ermmm....the only reason the Antarctic was tropical before the ice is that the Antactic was MUCH further North back then due to tectonic plate movement.

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 05, 2019, 11:13:48 AM
I don't believe it is "when" or "if" Electric vehicles take over.... as much as I do believe Carbon "pricing" will dominate globally, as we see the effect of climate change become more and more severe and begin to reduce ghg emissions.

Not going to get into whether anyone does or doesn't believe in man-made climate change from burning Fossil Fuels.... that's your choice to believe whatever you want I guess ?
same as it is my choice to believe what I wish....
based on living rurally here in Canada and seeing the effects first hand, and happening much faster than any "predictions" I've seen ?

Anyways,
I believe Carbon Pricing will eventually relegate Fossil Fuels as too expensive, both from a monetary and carbon/climate based perspective as ghg Emissions aren't "free" anymore ?
with sub-1 litre internal combustion commuter box engines supplementing primarily Electric drive trains in Vehicles, especially in under 100 mile commuter ranges.

The Electric Technology is here, and IMO will eventually dominate.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50460241

I read the other day that Canada has the fastest climate change with the fastest increasing average temperature in the World....

Quote from: 70 sublime on December 05, 2019, 01:50:39 PM
:2thumbs:
Canada is #6 on the list for cleanest air  :yesnod: :yesnod:

Australia - average PM 2.5 concentration: 5.7
Brunei - 6.6
New Zealand - 6.8
Estonia - 7.2
Finland - 7.3
Canada - 7.5
Iceland - 8.2
Sweden - 8.7
Ireland - 8.8
Liberia - 9.3

How do they account for prevailing wind?

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 05, 2019, 06:12:34 PM

Quote from: tan top on December 05, 2019, 02:09:15 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on December 05, 2019, 01:22:47 PM

Quote from: timmycharger on December 05, 2019, 01:17:56 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on December 05, 2019, 01:13:43 PM
A double standard of what?

I reference the double standard that an elite F1 driver has where on one hand, he preaches on twitter about being vegan and banning plastic and going carbon neutral and then jumps in his private plane to race around the world along with his team and the equipment burning ridiculous amounts of fuel.  

If he was so worried about being carbon neutral, shouldn't he quit being an F1 driver and forfeit his multi million dollar contract?


Is that the wrong use of the term double standard?

To tan top.

 
well IMO  there is all this  talk how  we have got to save the environment  fossil fuels are bad  , but nothing is done about air travel  or any of the other polluting devices !  every one backs & uses air travel, & don't think it even enters the head of  the people who say cars with their internal combustion engines are bad , imo think cutting down & destroying rain forests & large numbers of trees around the world is doing more damage .
i think globel warming is just  natural progression of the world , ice caps melting ! yes but that's what ice does eventually !  wasn't there a discovery recently that millions of years ago, Antarctic was tropical before the ice , apparently due to the type of  fossilized tree & plant remains were discovered there only because of the melting ice .  

if your going to do away with internal combustion engines  , you need to stop everything else that pollutes ,  
yes I agree that there is scientific reports whats causing global warming , but  any & all manufacturing processes contribute to it in some way even guy having a fire in their back yard  or burning wood / coal  for heating ,   two stroke chain saws & mowers  firework displays  new years eve , where do you stop.  modern cars now are pretty clean burning compare to ole muscle cars , two stroke engines garden waste burning & firework smoke even walking  close to someone smoking  in the street affects an asthma sufferer more than a modern cars exhaust fumes, imo diesels different story

Ermmm....the only reason the Antarctic was tropical before the ice is that the Antactic was MUCH further North back then due to tectonic plate movement.

that's interesting  never saw/  must of missed that bit ! if that's the case ignore what I said :yesnod: 
will have search & read  :cheers:

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 05, 2019, 06:14:24 PM

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 05, 2019, 11:13:48 AM
I don't believe it is "when" or "if" Electric vehicles take over.... as much as I do believe Carbon "pricing" will dominate globally, as we see the effect of climate change become more and more severe and begin to reduce ghg emissions.

Not going to get into whether anyone does or doesn't believe in man-made climate change from burning Fossil Fuels.... that's your choice to believe whatever you want I guess ?
same as it is my choice to believe what I wish....
based on living rurally here in Canada and seeing the effects first hand, and happening much faster than any "predictions" I've seen ?

Anyways,
I believe Carbon Pricing will eventually relegate Fossil Fuels as too expensive, both from a monetary and carbon/climate based perspective as ghg Emissions aren't "free" anymore ?
with sub-1 litre internal combustion commuter box engines supplementing primarily Electric drive trains in Vehicles, especially in under 100 mile commuter ranges.

The Electric Technology is here, and IMO will eventually dominate.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50460241

I read the other day that Canada has the fastest climate change with the fastest increasing average temperature in the World....

If that's true, it's got to be from billions of beer induced farts.

Quote from: tan top on December 05, 2019, 02:09:15 PM

if your going to do away with internal combustion engines  , you need to stop everything else that pollutes ,  

You're kinda all over the map.

The idea of not working on auto ICE because you cannot stop all pollution is silly. If the only approach was to solve 100% of any problem in one step or nothing at all, we'd still be living in caves.  Anyways "they" will go after those other things too, its all a matter of time, based on some priority that will likely not make sense to everyone.

But what I'm really hearing you say is;"... stop messing with my ICE because man made global warm thing is BS....."  Fine, but that is different than pointing at everything else that pollutes.  Again there is no double standard. 

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 05, 2019, 02:35:39 PM

Quote from: tan top on December 05, 2019, 02:09:15 PM




 
well IMO  there is all this  talk how  we have got to save the environment  fossil fuels are bad  , but nothing is done about air travel  or any of the other polluting devices !  every one backs & uses air travel, & don't think it even enters the head of  the people who say cars with their internal combustion engines are bad , imo think cutting down & destroying rain forests & large numbers of trees around the world is doing more damage .
i think globel warming is just  natural progression of the world , ice caps melting ! yes but that's what ice does eventually !  wasn't there a discovery recently that millions of years ago, Antarctic was tropical before the ice , apparently due to the type of  fossilized tree & plant remains were discovered there only because of the melting ice . 

if your going to do away with internal combustion engines  , you need to stop everything else that pollutes , 
yes I agree that there is scientific reports whats causing global warming , but  any & all manufacturing processes contribute to it in some way even guy having a fire in their back yard  or burning wood / coal  for heating ,   two stroke chain saws & mowers  firework displays  new years eve , where do you stop.
 

Wow, I'm not used to seeing a Tan Top post without any pictures!     :lol:

:lol:  :2thumbs:

Quote from: BSB67 on December 05, 2019, 08:07:39 PM

Quote from: tan top on December 05, 2019, 02:09:15 PM

if your going to do away with internal combustion engines  , you need to stop everything else that pollutes ,  

You're kinda all over the map.

The idea of not working on auto ICE because you cannot stop all pollution is silly. If the only approach was to solve 100% of any problem in one step or nothing at all, we'd still be living in caves.  Anyways "they" will go after those other things too, its all a matter of time, based on some priority that will likely not make sense to everyone.

But what I'm really hearing you say is;"... stop messing with my ICE because man made global warm thing is BS....."  Fine, but that is different than pointing at everything else that pollutes.  Again there is no double standard.  

yeah I was a bit all over the place with that one
I see what your saying & I agree  
but not once I have heard  about how much pollution from the millions of miles & gallons used by jet aeroplanes, its always  cars trucks are at the front of causing pollution ! & dare I say some people may well buy electric cars & say i'm doing my bit for the planet look we have gone green you should do the same etc , then fly 4 thousand miles a year on vacation or business, thats what I meant by double standard , thinking about it maybe that was not the correct word to use, anyway that's what I meant , not even sure why I threw everything else into the mix but at the time it was relevant to say what I was thinking about the whole electric thing

 

            
         
How are muscle cars being threatened, really?



Look at where the US/western military machine is placed & used around the world.  There's a lesson here: the power structure doesn't want to end widespread oil use any time soon.  It's not going to happen.  Big industry cannot make money off oil if it's banned or too expensive for the masses.  

Future modern sporty cars going electric?  
Yes.  What's the hangup?  Electric motors are doing the job more efficiently than IC.  Get over it.  

A few decades ago guys like us were bitching & moaning about EFI.  Airbags.  Catalytic converters.  Low-profile tires.  Vehicle evolution will not remain frozen in place.          

   

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on December 05, 2019, 10:43:09 PM
           
         
How are muscle cars being threatened, really?



Look at where the US/western military machine is placed & used around the world.  There's a lesson here: the power structure doesn't want to end widespread oil use any time soon.  It's not going to happen.  Big industry cannot make money off oil if it's banned or too expensive for the masses.  

Future modern sporty cars going electric?  
Yes.  What's the hangup?  Electric motors are doing the job more efficiently than IC.  Get over it.  

A few decades ago guys like us were bitching & moaning about EFI.  Airbags.  Catalytic converters.  Low-profile tires.  Vehicle evolution will not remain frozen in place.          

   

Exactly.  I think I used the late 1970s as a similar example.  Everyone thought that the muscle car was gone forever....never to return.....dead.  Now you can go to the dealer and write a check and get a car with A/C that will nearly stands on its bumper.

Electric is coming.  But it will take a long long time, like forever, for petroleum to go away. 

If you want to blame something for taking your car rights away, It would likely be autonomous vehicles.  But that will be way after we're gone.

Looks like GM and LG will be spending $2 billion on battery manufacturing at Lordstown with UAW workers.  Hope it works out.

Pretty much every economist on the planet agree's that the best way to reduce Carbon without destroying the economy.... is to introduce a Tax on carbon to:
1.) de-incentivize carbon use through pricing which also makes cleaner alternatives more competitive
and
2.) utilize the revenues to fund R & D into the cleaner Techs

Again, didn't want to get into whether anyone does..... or does NOT believe in Fossil Fuel induced climate change .....
but another one of the things most economists agree will happen as a result of climate change if true ?
is the mass migration of people from areas that are becoming un-inhabitable to those remaining areas that are still viable putting greater and greater pressure on ever more limited remaining resources to sustain them.
I don't think anyone could build a wall big enough or high enough ?

If anyone's interested.... China begins it's Carbon Tax March 1st 2020, their goal is a Communist "5 year plan" not just to reduce their emissions 20%.... but with the $1 Trillion investment to be Global leaders in clean technologies.
Looks like the Western economies may be playing catch up once again ?

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 05, 2019, 06:14:24 PM


I read the other day that Canada has the fastest climate change with the fastest increasing average temperature in the World....

Probably a lefty fake news site. I had a heat pumped installed last winter on November ~20th it was -23C that day. Lived my whole life in the north east. Last 2-3 winters have been colder and more snow than i can recall in the last 15 years. I was snowmobiling last year in early November and could have this year too. That hasn't been the norm in 25-30 years. Was first time since i was an early teenager.

              
Canada is a big place.  The earth's warming trend is gonna show up much more at the poles than closer to the equator.  Hence, rising sea levels in the future.  So far the populated latitudes have seen more inconsistent climate than warmer climate.  


If you really don't believe anything is changing, then talk to somebody living near one of the big river systems.  They are cleaning up from '100-year floods' every 2-3 years these days.      

If rising sea levels are happening, why are oceanfront property values not plummeting? We all know that the Big O just plunked down about 15 million for a oceanfront mansion on tony Martha's Vineyard. With that purchase, I'd say that rising sea levels are now not a concern of his at all. Why is that?   ::)

QuoteIf rising sea levels are happening, why are oceanfront property values not plummeting? We all know that the Big O just plunked down about 15 million for a oceanfront mansion on tony Martha's Vineyard. With that purchase, I'd say that rising sea levels are now not a concern of his at all. Why is that?   Roll Eyes

Many classic muscle cars are expected to lose a big chunk of their current value in the next 20 years (never mind the next 50-100 years), as the baby boomers leave the market.  Why on earth would anybody buy one of those things today?  
 

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on December 06, 2019, 04:09:33 PM

QuoteIf rising sea levels are happening, why are oceanfront property values not plummeting? We all know that the Big O just plunked down about 15 million for a oceanfront mansion on tony Martha's Vineyard. With that purchase, I'd say that rising sea levels are now not a concern of his at all. Why is that?   Roll Eyes

Many classic muscle cars are expected to lose a big chunk of their current value in the next 20 years (never mind the next 50-100 years), as the baby boomers leave the market.  Why on earth would anybody buy one of those things today?  
 

The correct answer to my question is that the seal levels stopped rising because the Big O made it so 10 years ago. That's why he bought the place on MV; there is no sea level/coastal storm problems any longer. Right?


"This was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal"

Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on December 06, 2019, 01:27:22 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 05, 2019, 06:14:24 PM


I read the other day that Canada has the fastest climate change with the fastest increasing average temperature in the World....

Probably a lefty fake news site. I had a heat pumped installed last winter on November ~20th it was -23C that day. Lived my whole life in the north east. Last 2-3 winters have been colder and more snow than i can recall in the last 15 years. I was snowmobiling last year in early November and could have this year too. That hasn't been the norm in 25-30 years. Was first time since i was an early teenager.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_in_Canada

These changes take places over decades or longer...you will still get colder and warmer winters but the overall trend is without a doubt up. Now whether you believe it's  a man made temperature increase its up to you (although with the pretty much irrefutable evidence to back it up you would need to have a pretty low iq (hi Donald!) to believe otherwise)....but the world is getting warmer and for whatever reason Canada is in the top few places for climate change.

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 06, 2019, 03:44:00 PM
If rising sea levels are happening, why are oceanfront property values not plummeting? We all know that the Big O just plunked down about 15 million for a oceanfront mansion on tony Martha's Vineyard. With that purchase, I'd say that rising sea levels are now not a concern of his at all. Why is that?   ::)

He'll build a sea wall.  :smilielol:

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 06, 2019, 06:33:57 PM

Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on December 06, 2019, 01:27:22 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 05, 2019, 06:14:24 PM


I read the other day that Canada has the fastest climate change with the fastest increasing average temperature in the World....

Probably a lefty fake news site. I had a heat pumped installed last winter on November ~20th it was -23C that day. Lived my whole life in the north east. Last 2-3 winters have been colder and more snow than i can recall in the last 15 years. I was snowmobiling last year in early November and could have this year too. That hasn't been the norm in 25-30 years. Was first time since i was an early teenager.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_in_Canada

These changes take places over decades or longer...you will still get colder and warmer winters but the overall trend is without a doubt up. Now whether you believe it's  a man made temperature increase its up to you (although with the pretty much irrefutable evidence to back it up you would need to have a pretty low iq (hi Donald!) to believe otherwise)....but the world is getting warmer and for whatever reason Canada is in the top few places for climate change.

I am in Canada and like the warmer weather
Being a farmer we are getting a longer growing season for the crops
Also have had some dry years and some very wet years but that is just all part of farming

So how many times has the earth had cycles of warming up and cooling off over many years since the start of time ?
And how many times has man even been around for ?? 

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on December 06, 2019, 03:04:28 PM
             
They are cleaning up from '100-year floods' every 2-3 years these days.      

But understand what data FEMA is using to determine the 100 year flood....data from the last 80 years.  Relative to the age of the earth, they are essentially using no representative historical data.  Locally they just used the "latest technology" to re-establish the 100 and 500 year flood levels in my area. They dropped the flood level 5 ft.  Absolutely silly.

                        
My point was just that the weather/situation is changing.  What used to be adequate protection from a problem, is suddenly getting very inadequate.    

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on December 06, 2019, 08:26:41 PM
                       
My point was just that the weather/situation is changing.  What used to be adequate protection from a problem, is suddenly getting very inadequate.    

So fundamentally there is the difference.  "Problem".  I don't see it as a problem.  I see it as nature doing what it does, and it's becoming inconvenient for us, so something needs to be fixed.  Man shows up for one nano second in geologic time, puts a stake in the ground as to what normal is, and then thinks something is wrong when it changes and is so arrogant he thinks the the fix is actually in his control.  

50 years ago, my mom said that folks building on beaches, living in river low areas, in hurricane/tornado country and on fault lines were asking for big trouble.  She would say, "don't mess with mother nature, you cannot win".  She didn't even have a high school education but apparently was a genius.  So now that man has done a bunch of stupid stuff, we want to preserve our mistakes by fixing nature.

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 06, 2019, 06:33:57 PM
Now whether you believe it's  a man made temperature increase its up to you (although with the pretty much irrefutable evidence to back it up you would need to have a pretty low iq (hi Donald!) to believe otherwise)

When a citizenry is bombarded with heavily biased reports day after day while never hearing a equal reporting from the opposition, people like you tend to take the bait. The media has an agenda and you are falling for it. Irrefutable??    :pity: I hate to sound so rude because I actually like much of what I read from you but you live in a Liberal country and are bordering on socialism. OF COURSE the reports seem irrefutable because the ones feeding you the info are trying to control your lives. It sucks to wake up and realize this but it is the truth.
Hey...If I grew up in a shithole and the only people that I knew or saw were molesters and drug dealers, I'd probably think that the whole world is like that.
It is not.
Taxing people or eliminating gasoline powered cars is not going to help anyone except those that rake in the tax money and the ones that will still have cars. Jesus Christ...Its like I'm talking English to Aborigenes....The ONLY people that will have money, cars and guns will be the people in control. Politicians and BIG business, not people like us.
That is not the way that I want to live. Fuck that ! 

Quote from: 70 sublime on December 06, 2019, 07:31:25 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 06, 2019, 06:33:57 PM

Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on December 06, 2019, 01:27:22 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 05, 2019, 06:14:24 PM


I read the other day that Canada has the fastest climate change with the fastest increasing average temperature in the World....

Probably a lefty fake news site. I had a heat pumped installed last winter on November ~20th it was -23C that day. Lived my whole life in the north east. Last 2-3 winters have been colder and more snow than i can recall in the last 15 years. I was snowmobiling last year in early November and could have this year too. That hasn't been the norm in 25-30 years. Was first time since i was an early teenager.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_in_Canada

These changes take places over decades or longer...you will still get colder and warmer winters but the overall trend is without a doubt up. Now whether you believe it's  a man made temperature increase its up to you (although with the pretty much irrefutable evidence to back it up you would need to have a pretty low iq (hi Donald!) to believe otherwise)....but the world is getting warmer and for whatever reason Canada is in the top few places for climate change.

So how many times has the earth had cycles of warming up and cooling off over many years since the start of time ?
And how many times has man even been around for ?? 

The Earth has had many cycles of warming, and cooling.... but always over many THOUSANDS of years.
but imo,
the more relevant question may be how many times has the Earth experience an acute warming or cooling event with 100 or 200 Years such as we are inducing burning fossil fuels ?
I dunno if anyone knows the answer to that one ?
Theories abound that the Gulf of Mexico was formed by a giant meteor impact that was the last acute event ?  around the same time the Dinosaurs went away ?

One reply and I will shut up.  All the talk of previous warming and cooling cycles is great but NEVER before have there been 8 BILLION people on the planet.  Almost half live near a coast.  That means, up to, 4 BILLION people will need to find a new place to live and food, shelter to maintain them.  Those that live in Iowa (not picking, just an example) think that this will not affect them but what will happen when all those people come to Iowa  and want a place to live?  If we can do something now, that has to be better than waiting till Miami, Tallahassee, Savannah, Ga, Norfolk Va, Wash DC New York city, Boston, New Orleans, Houston Tx, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle Wa , London, Bangladesh, etc, etc, etc are underwater. If we can do something now and save our grand children from this wouldn't you do it?

OK, just forget I replied, just getting it off my chest.

Edit: final note: this thread really got off from the original question.  I would bet it will be decades before Hybrid/electric cars outsell IC cars.

Amazing.... absolutely amazing..... that there are still people who either can't ? or won't ?  for whatever reason listen to the science ?  :shruggy:

Equally amazing.... is people still believing Global "warming" means believing in the most simplistic terms possible that we should be seeing "warmer" median winters etc ?
We are.... but that's NOT the INTENT behind understanding climate "change" ?

What the "warming" refers to is ambient thermal energies present in weather events ?
Meaning....
think the intensity of climate, and the frequency of the extremes in climate.... the intensity and frequency of storms..... the intensity and frequency of ever more severe weather events like winds, rains, and yes even snowstorms.... the intensity and frequency of droughts..... which we are seeing !

example:
How many CAT 5 Hurricanes in the last 100 years ?
How many of those occurred in the last 15 of those 100 years ?

          

QuoteEdit: final note: this thread really got off from the original question.  I would bet it will be decades before Hybrid/electric cars outsell IC cars.

I've read that the long-term math is already starting to look better for compact economy EVs than compact IC cars.  That's just the buyers' dollar value decision, not counting any political/green motives.  

Same for sports cars.  Teslas are beating Hellcats.  Stupid-ass power, AWD, and fewer complications with putting it to the wheels on command.  



One of the big cost factors is maintenance.  EVs are so much simpler.  Those things don't need oil changes, air filters, serpentine belts, water pumps, spark plugs, radiator hoses, radiator plastic tanks, alternators, fuel pumps, timing chains, cracked exhaust manifolds, rusty mufflers, rattling catalytic converters, O2 sensors . . .  nothing.  It's basically just the chassis parts and the climate controls (all with electric assists, nothing belt-driven).  

The electric motors & batteries do fail.  But it's a few very big costs as opposed to many smaller ones.  

Oops wrong place!!

Quote from: Kern Dog on December 06, 2019, 09:56:32 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 06, 2019, 06:33:57 PM
Now whether you believe it's  a man made temperature increase its up to you (although with the pretty much irrefutable evidence to back it up you would need to have a pretty low iq (hi Donald!) to believe otherwise)

When a citizenry is bombarded with heavily biased reports day after day while never hearing a equal reporting from the opposition, people like you tend to take the bait. The media has an agenda and you are falling for it. Irrefutable??    :pity: I hate to sound so rude because I actually like much of what I read from you but you live in a Liberal country and are bordering on socialism. OF COURSE the reports seem irrefutable because the ones feeding you the info are trying to control your lives. It sucks to wake up and realize this but it is the truth.
Hey...If I grew up in a shithole and the only people that I knew or saw were molesters and drug dealers, I'd probably think that the whole world is like that.
It is not.
Taxing people or eliminating gasoline powered cars is not going to help anyone except those that rake in the tax money and the ones that will still have cars. Jesus Christ...Its like I'm talking English to Aborigenes....The ONLY people that will have money, cars and guns will be the people in control. Politicians and BIG business, not people like us.
That is not the way that I want to live. Fuck that ! 

Honestly mate....you are just wrong. Yes people will take advantage to make political gain....same with everything really. But the science (and i mean no government independent type science) is there for all to see. And I dont live in a socialist country....but might by next week!!

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 06, 2019, 10:47:35 PM
Amazing.... absolutely amazing..... that there are still people who either can't ? or won't ?  for whatever reason listen to the science ?  :shruggy:

It all depends whose science one wants to believe and the hysterical history of "climate change", which is simply large scale government control in the name of "saving the planet".

When it comes to "climate change", why is it that no one wants to talk about all of the Earth's naturally occurring climate change cycles that happened prior to the industrial revolution?

Quote from: 70 sublime on December 06, 2019, 07:31:25 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 06, 2019, 06:33:57 PM

Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on December 06, 2019, 01:27:22 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 05, 2019, 06:14:24 PM


I read the other day that Canada has the fastest climate change with the fastest increasing average temperature in the World....

Probably a lefty fake news site. I had a heat pumped installed last winter on November ~20th it was -23C that day. Lived my whole life in the north east. Last 2-3 winters have been colder and more snow than i can recall in the last 15 years. I was snowmobiling last year in early November and could have this year too. That hasn't been the norm in 25-30 years. Was first time since i was an early teenager.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_in_Canada

These changes take places over decades or longer...you will still get colder and warmer winters but the overall trend is without a doubt up. Now whether you believe it's  a man made temperature increase its up to you (although with the pretty much irrefutable evidence to back it up you would need to have a pretty low iq (hi Donald!) to believe otherwise)....but the world is getting warmer and for whatever reason Canada is in the top few places for climate change.

So how many times has the earth had cycles of warming up and cooling off over many years since the start of time ?
And how many times has man even been around for ?? 

Hundreds of times....most before men existed....but that not the point....it has NEVER changed so fast....and thats because of us...chopping down rain forests and burning fossil fuels. Once upon a time the earth was so high on CO2 and other nasty gases that it was virtually uninhabitable. Then the plants came and "hoovered" up all that nasty gas and over time buried it in the ground.....so in simple terms we are releasing lots of that previously trapped carbon back into the air at a far faster rate that the remaining plants can absorb it....thats what gives you climate change.

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 06, 2019, 10:47:35 PM
Amazing.... absolutely amazing..... that there are still people who either can't ? or won't ?  for whatever reason listen to the science ?  :shruggy:

You want science? Here's something to share with all alarmists. If alarmists were truly serious about saving lives NOW, they would focus on India and China's particulate pollution and support hydro and nuclear. This paper that says the US could reduce it's CO2 emissions to ZERO and it would hardly move the needle on CO2 levels or temperature. It's from 2015 but it's the gold standard for rebuttal:

https://www.lomborg.com/press-releas...imate-promises

And here's a great article to share your alarmist buddies (and we all have them). I have a friend who knows the authors, one of them very well:

https://files.texaspolicy.com/upload...ACEE-White.pdf

Im not an alarmist....I have two diesel Alfas, one petrol Merc and a V8 and to be honest I dont really do much about climate change myself....enjoy my life as is it!!!. But I would rather here facts than blind faith that its not happening. Yes China is by far the worse polluter....they burn over a third of the worlds mined coal and are building new power stations all the time. But if a few big governments set the example we might make a change. Both those links do nothing for me by the way...not sure why.

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 07, 2019, 05:57:38 AM
Im not an alarmist....I have two diesel Alfas, one petrol Merc and a V8 and to be honest I dont really do much about climate change myself....enjoy my life as is it!!!. But I would rather here facts than blind faith that its not happening. Yes China is by far the worse polluter....they burn over a third of the worlds mined coal and are building new power stations all the time. But if a few big governments set the example we might make a change. Both those links do nothing for me by the way...not sure why.

The US HAS BEEN setting a very good example for at least 40 years, but the enviro-nut jobs/degrowthers here want the US population to think that the US is the main polluter in the world, which is simply not the case.

       
We have "cleaned up" in the last 40 years by outsourcing a lot of our pollution.  Southeast Asia does the dirtiest parts of our manufacturing work for us now.  


Example:  40-50 years ago we used to chrome-plate our own bumpers here.  Not anymore (on a commercial scale). 

Damn, this thread came up somekind boring at certain point. My Opinions ( not to be discussed, just posting ):

Electric cars will outsell internal combustion certainly. When? we don't know. But could be before that we think. Europe is coming hard about internal combustion cars restrictions and that's not fair for the citizens getting cars for years and years with this technology, which is BTW at this moment more accesible yet.

The climate change is a reality. You can feel how going along the lands  leaving a forest and entering a forest how the temp changes. This adds forest are like a radiator getting cooler the air. Is not just the air pollution itself, but missing green areas, also what forest makes about that... including oxigen production.

Fuel taxes... don't worry, Goverments will take care of that. Spain goverment pretended someday in the past get some tax to the sun ( go figure, a sun tax in Spain which is the sunniest country in Europe ) for those using personal solar cells for its own electricity production at home.

Charging stations network will take less time than fuel stations all along all the countries back in the days when the gasoline and diesel production wasn't like nowdays. The electricity network already exist, including at highways. Is just about install a charging station anywhere, which BTW is easier and maybe even cheaper than a full gas station with undergrounded tanks and everything related.

Charging time and efficiency is a big problem yet. Just like when you are out of battery on your cell Phone searching for an AC outlet anywhere to recharge. Power banks ? Wheel spinning making its own recharging process ? solar cells at certain car spots ?

As mentioned above, the pollution deal is not just about pollution but also greener areas being killed to whatever... farming... its being already talked about we need to eat less meat to save forests. And forest helps on the CO2 conversion to O2, thats a fact... But I like all kind of pork product! ( well, being from Spain origins, you can figure it out !!! )

USA is larger than Europe, but most of US citizens never leave their county or counties around. I'd say maybe 60-70% of US citizens never have leaved their own state. So the European comparision about dimension and cars autonomy is certainly not valid. I could say European Citizens travel around Europe more than US citizens around USA. So this won't affect the autonomy idea about electrical cars. The only reality here is European comunications are far way better than USA, and any regular citizen can take any train and go anywhere, which is not like that in USA where the car is the main personal transportation. Aside this, the European population density is way bigger than in USA.

About the "cleaner air countries". Have you noted most of countries in the list are the smaller population density and bigger green areas?

yes, it has been changes allong the years. I remember maybe 6-8 years ago when I travelled from Venezuela to Spain, the air smell was way diff between both countries, I think mostly due the gasoline fumes in Venezuela and diesel fumes in Europe ( diesel fumes are/were way more polluted than gasoline ), and this has changed making this change practically unnoticeable latelly.

Will be great to get the balance on everything on this. Efficent farming, reforesting areas, cheaper technology to convince to the ppl to make the change due their pocket ( Ponch prooved he don't care ecologism but his pocket... that's a shame. Money is important, true, but climate is too ), softer change for citizens. Myself just got a 1997 Range Rover here in Spain, because I wanted a SUV as a driver and this is one of my favorites ever, but also because is cheaper than any electric car ( aside don't like ANY modern car design, not electric or internal combusition neither ). The BMW engine in it is not the more efficient really.

Classic cars must survive. We classic car lovers have our own right to enjoy them. We are not guilty on the pollution and we don't need to pay for it. Is just the way that it came out. Collector cars owners maybe are just 0.1% of the population? maybe even less!!! I still love LPs and they are available yet.


And about electricity production. Any energy production or transforming is a pollution production, just need to find the more efficient one. Batteries production ? will become on a new pollution industry like the oil companies are nowdays. What about the battery dispossal once they can't be recharged anymore ? Is ppl educated for that ? I still find ppl unable to use the correct containers for reciclying due ignorance or mostly of them, because ppl still don't care a shit about that.


and wait... we still haven't talked about the SEA CONTAMINATION which could be harder to beat, and could become on a larger problem than air itself ( if is not yet )

Great post.....

Follow the money.  There is truly no independent science on this subject matter.  If you believe there is, please identify the independent body and the names of the people on that independent body.  The climate science community finally has created self worth.  There is no way they will undermine their livelihood.   And a climate science professional that speaks against the pending catastrophic will be unemployed.

Our science today is no where good enough to determine if there was an "acute" change in historical time as we think we're seeing today.  

is true about those apocaliptyc stories about the climate change were unprecisse and maybe exagerated, but is coming and you can feel it at this moment. If ppl is worried about the life style change with all these regulations, ( which is true are being hard and I'm not agree with that since own our world dictated it ), think on how you life style could change due the climate change later than the ecologist predictions, true, but sooner than non ecologist ppl says ( which still think is a false statement )

And still, if you don't care about climate change ( specially temp which is the most important topic being talked ) think on live on a earth completelly like this when you open your bedroom window and find this fog:

(http://www.lr21.com.uy/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/cdmx.png)

or travelling around the country and never see this anymore

(https://www.dw.com/image/48228796_303.jpg)

and think on this.... green areas preserves the water fonts too

(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0a/54/26/a8/img-5332-largejpg.jpg)

without forests, we won't have drinking water anymore (or not enough at least ). How many deserts get rivers with enough water ? they are deserts for a reason. Or do you want to live like in DUNE movie ? or think about Wall-E movie. It never talks about a time line, but illustrates very well the direction this could take

Climate change is affecting hard to Spain BTW, which is the bigger european food producer. Spain needs to get the balance between food production and reforesting, to make it look closer to XVI century, just right before most of forest were killed to make war ships to control the Spanish empire!

around 4 years ago, the Angel's waterfall in Venezuela ( which is the higher in the world with allmost 1 km height ) looked like this:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/66/7c/1a/667c1a24c1526dd7d13690abaa2979c7.jpg)

where uses to look like this:

(http://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode%2Fsundaytimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F42e82360-46e0-11e7-9575-cc3570f7abb6.jpg?crop=2250%2C1266%2C0%2C117&resize=685)

so... is happening or not ? dry and wet seasons happens but never happened like that.

So... climate change is or is not happening ?


so, getting back to Electrical cars will outsell internal combustion... yes will do, and I'm happy will do, but you can't put me a gun on a head to get it... get me involved and in love of the change, seduce me about that, but don't push me. Education to the ppl is the main and first step on this. Make it accesible and reasonable. And change is not just on regular citizens. Each of us can't pay for that because the life style came on that way.

The climate change can't be reversed in a day just like when the Color TV appeared to substitute the B&W TV. So don't push me in something that can't be pushed like hat. Too many stuff involved on this.

BTW, electric cars needs to make SOME small noise at least! Pedestrians life is in danger since we don't use to be around streets without some noise from cars. Noises from cars coming from engines are a warning signal for pedestrians

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 07, 2019, 05:33:47 AM

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 06, 2019, 10:47:35 PM
Amazing.... absolutely amazing..... that there are still people who either can't ? or won't ?  for whatever reason listen to the science ?  :shruggy:

When it comes to "climate change", why is it that no one wants to talk about all of the Earth's naturally occurring climate change cycles that happened prior to the industrial revolution?

Because those "naturally occurring" climate change cycles ALL occurred over many THOUSANDS of years ?

Whenever someone wants to point to one of Earth's "naturally occurring" climate change cycles that occurred within 100-200 years ? then we may have something to discuss ?
Problem being....
there has NEVER BEEN as dramatic a change within 100-200 years on Earth that anyone knows of in Earth's history that didn't result in a dramatic extinction event ?

Save maybe the Gulf of Mexico ?
THAT is believed to have formed from a massive meteor impact that resulted in the extinction of the Dinosaurs ?

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 07, 2019, 05:46:44 AM

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 06, 2019, 10:47:35 PM
Amazing.... absolutely amazing..... that there are still people who either can't ? or won't ?  for whatever reason listen to the science ?  :shruggy:

You want science? Here's something to share with all alarmists. If alarmists were truly serious about saving lives NOW, they would focus on India and China's particulate pollution and support hydro and nuclear. This paper that says the US could reduce it's CO2 emissions to ZERO and it would hardly move the needle on CO2 levels or temperature. It's from 2015 but it's the gold standard for rebuttal:

https://www.lomborg.com/press-releas...imate-promises

And here's a great article to share your alarmist buddies (and we all have them). I have a friend who knows the authors, one of them very well:

https://files.texaspolicy.com/upload...ACEE-White.pdf

China begins a very aggressive Carbon Tax pricing system March 1st 2020 in 5 months.... the Communist's next 5 year plan being a $1 Trillion USD equivalent investment in cleaner Tech R & D so they can be a "World Leader"
and,
INDIA is slated to implement their Carbon Pricing system September 1st next year..... but the Indian's want to "compete" with the Chinese ?
Europe....
Russian's...
all taking iniatives....

only here in North America are we once again falling waaaaay behind.... because we refuse to be smart ?..... so the Chinese/Indian's will eat us alive economically once again !

I mean I don't care WHAT you believe personally around climate change ?
But FOLLOW THE MONEY for crissakes ?

By the time I buy a Tesla EV and retro-fit my home for Solar etc. ? I've just dumped another $100K ?
WHO WANTS some of THAT ????

Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on December 07, 2019, 08:28:58 AM
BTW, electric cars needs to make SOME small noise at least! Pedestrians life is in danger since we don't use to be around streets without some noise from cars. Noises from cars coming from engines are a warning signal for pedestrians

Very true and exactly why all EVs sold after 2020 here will need to have a noise of some sort....too many pedestrians getting hit....I was nearly one of then when I was out running a while back. Fancy your Tesla with a V8 soundtrack....no problem!

Quote from: BSB67 on December 07, 2019, 07:38:47 AM

Our science today is no where good enough to determine if there was an "acute" change in historical time as we think we're seeing today.  

Yes there is...ice cores that track the temperature of our planet and the amount of CO2 in the air for 10s of 1000s of years are a fantastic source of climate change info and how fast it happened...no doubt there are other methods too. People don't just make this shit up you know....as much as many would lke to believe they do.

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 07, 2019, 02:15:27 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on December 07, 2019, 07:38:47 AM

Our science today is no where good enough to determine if there was an "acute" change in historical time as we think we're seeing today.  

Yes there is...ice cores that track the temperature of our planet and the amount of CO2 in the air for 10s of 1000s of years are a fantastic source of climate change info and how fast it happened...no doubt there are other methods too. People don't just make this shit up you know....as much as many would lke to believe they do.

Yes, they can track trends in the 10's of thousands of year for the past millions of years, but not ten or hundred year increments.

Quote from: BSB67 on December 07, 2019, 07:38:47 AM


Our science today is no where good enough to determine if there was an "acute" change in historical time as we think we're seeing today.  

In my opinion only....
I believe there is very solid ? and now accepted as proven evidence of an "acute" climate change event in Earth's history ?
and it is very similar to within the 100-200 year period of climate change to what we are seeing/inducing today with Fossil Fuels ?

Google for yourself if you are interested and reach your own conclusions.

"cretaceous-tertiary extinction event"
or,
"Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event"

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 07, 2019, 02:08:30 PM

Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on December 07, 2019, 08:28:58 AM
BTW, electric cars needs to make SOME small noise at least! Pedestrians life is in danger since we don't use to be around streets without some noise from cars. Noises from cars coming from engines are a warning signal for pedestrians

Very true and exactly why all EVs sold after 2020 here will need to have a noise of some sort....too many pedestrians getting hit....I was nearly one of then when I was out running a while back. Fancy your Tesla with a V8 soundtrack....no problem!

one EV taxi allmost hit me last year in Santander. True is it was going back so I never realize he was to leave its parking place.

Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on December 07, 2019, 03:34:07 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 07, 2019, 02:08:30 PM

Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on December 07, 2019, 08:28:58 AM
BTW, electric cars needs to make SOME small noise at least! Pedestrians life is in danger since we don't use to be around streets without some noise from cars. Noises from cars coming from engines are a warning signal for pedestrians

Very true and exactly why all EVs sold after 2020 here will need to have a noise of some sort....too many pedestrians getting hit....I was nearly one of then when I was out running a while back. Fancy your Tesla with a V8 soundtrack....no problem!

one EV taxi allmost hit me last year in Santander. True is it was going back so I never realize he was to leave its parking place.

Interesting.... you already have EV Taxi's in Venezuela ?
a country with arguably the largest Reserves of light/sweet Crude Oil left on the planet ?

Some reading that the open minded might like but the rest wont....then I'll leave it for you guys to argue out. Lol!

https://skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-global-warming.htm (https://skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-global-warming.htm)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://static.berkeleyearth.org/pdf/skeptics-guide-to-climate-change.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjE-_f336TmAhWRi1wKHQVwDewQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3dYFkIGDOZ8k5syD6hqhT6 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://static.berkeleyearth.org/pdf/skeptics-guide-to-climate-change.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjE-_f336TmAhWRi1wKHQVwDewQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3dYFkIGDOZ8k5syD6hqhT6)

https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-what-the-science-says-about-five-common-climate-change-myths (https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-what-the-science-says-about-five-common-climate-change-myths)

https://theyearsproject.com/ask-joe/what-is-my-best-source-for-climate-change-fact-checking-that-i-can-use-to-help-convince-my-climate-denier-friends/ (https://theyearsproject.com/ask-joe/what-is-my-best-source-for-climate-change-fact-checking-that-i-can-use-to-help-convince-my-climate-denier-friends/)

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-why-scientists-think-100-of-global-warming-is-due-to-humans (https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-why-scientists-think-100-of-global-warming-is-due-to-humans)

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 07, 2019, 07:00:47 PM
Some reading that the open minded might like but the rest wont....then I'll leave it for you guys to argue out. Lol!

https://skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-global-warming.htm (https://skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-global-warming.htm)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://static.berkeleyearth.org/pdf/skeptics-guide-to-climate-change.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjE-_f336TmAhWRi1wKHQVwDewQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3dYFkIGDOZ8k5syD6hqhT6 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://static.berkeleyearth.org/pdf/skeptics-guide-to-climate-change.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjE-_f336TmAhWRi1wKHQVwDewQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3dYFkIGDOZ8k5syD6hqhT6)

https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-what-the-science-says-about-five-common-climate-change-myths (https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-what-the-science-says-about-five-common-climate-change-myths)

https://theyearsproject.com/ask-joe/what-is-my-best-source-for-climate-change-fact-checking-that-i-can-use-to-help-convince-my-climate-denier-friends/ (https://theyearsproject.com/ask-joe/what-is-my-best-source-for-climate-change-fact-checking-that-i-can-use-to-help-convince-my-climate-denier-friends/)

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-why-scientists-think-100-of-global-warming-is-due-to-humans (https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-why-scientists-think-100-of-global-warming-is-due-to-humans)

I've most of those before, and will read them all again.  But honestly, that fact that you're put something up from Berkeley Earth losses a lot of credibility right for the start.  Its like asking a vegan if meat is bad.

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 07, 2019, 06:45:59 PM

Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on December 07, 2019, 03:34:07 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 07, 2019, 02:08:30 PM

Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on December 07, 2019, 08:28:58 AM
BTW, electric cars needs to make SOME small noise at least! Pedestrians life is in danger since we don't use to be around streets without some noise from cars. Noises from cars coming from engines are a warning signal for pedestrians

Very true and exactly why all EVs sold after 2020 here will need to have a noise of some sort....too many pedestrians getting hit....I was nearly one of then when I was out running a while back. Fancy your Tesla with a V8 soundtrack....no problem!

one EV taxi allmost hit me last year in Santander. True is it was going back so I never realize he was to leave its parking place.

Interesting.... you already have EV Taxi's in Venezuela ?
a country with arguably the largest Reserves of light/sweet Crude Oil left on the planet ?

No, Santander is in Spain ( althought there is a Santander state/department in Colombia )

No EVs in Venezuela, and nothing projected to get in that deal. Most of population doesn't know they are coming or even exist. Venezuela is right now living like in XIX century, getting electrical power blackouts constantly, and, believe it or not, running out of gasoline on gas pumps quite often. Some cities get in fact  scheduled electrical power alternating the power between neighborhoods because the electrical capacity has being falling down ( and there is the 3rd or 4th most powerfull dam in the world, but half of turbines damaged! ). Thanks Chavez and Maduro!!

Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on December 07, 2019, 07:52:34 AM
is true about those apocaliptyc stories about the climate change were unprecisse and maybe exagerated, but is coming and you can feel it at this moment. If ppl is worried about the life style change with all these regulations, ( which is true are being hard and I'm not agree with that since own our world dictated it ), think on how you life style could change due the climate change later than the ecologist predictions, true, but sooner than non ecologist ppl says ( which still think is a false statement )

And still, if you don't care about climate change ( specially temp which is the most important topic being talked ) think on live on a earth completelly like this when you open your bedroom window and find this fog:

(http://www.lr21.com.uy/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/cdmx.png)

or travelling around the country and never see this anymore

(https://www.dw.com/image/48228796_303.jpg)

and think on this.... green areas preserves the water fonts too

(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0a/54/26/a8/img-5332-largejpg.jpg)

without forests, we won't have drinking water anymore (or not enough at least ). How many deserts get rivers with enough water ? they are deserts for a reason. Or do you want to live like in DUNE movie ? or think about Wall-E movie. It never talks about a time line, but illustrates very well the direction this could take

Climate change is affecting hard to Spain BTW, which is the bigger european food producer. Spain needs to get the balance between food production and reforesting, to make it look closer to XVI century, just right before most of forest were killed to make war ships to control the Spanish empire!

You can't say that the picture of that polluted city (wherever it is) and say that's what the air is like everywhere. And you also can't say that all of the forests are going to disappear. Yes, we have to take care of our environment, but let's not get hysterical.

Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on December 07, 2019, 08:10:28 AM
around 4 years ago, the Angel's waterfall in Venezuela ( which is the higher in the world with allmost 1 km height ) looked like this:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/66/7c/1a/667c1a24c1526dd7d13690abaa2979c7.jpg)

where uses to look like this:

(http://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode%2Fsundaytimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F42e82360-46e0-11e7-9575-cc3570f7abb6.jpg?crop=2250%2C1266%2C0%2C117&resize=685)

so... is happening or not ? dry and wet seasons happens but never happened like that.

So... climate change is or is not happening ?


so, getting back to Electrical cars will outsell internal combustion... yes will do, and I'm happy will do, but you can't put me a gun on a head to get it... get me involved and in love of the change, seduce me about that, but don't push me. Education to the ppl is the main and first step on this. Make it accesible and reasonable. And change is not just on regular citizens. Each of us can't pay for that because the life style came on that way.

The climate change can't be reversed in a day just like when the Color TV appeared to substitute the B&W TV. So don't push me in something that can't be pushed like hat. Too many stuff involved on this.

The waterfall is beautiful, but showing one picture of it running fast and another running slow means nothing. One could have been taken after a wet season and could the other have been taken during a dry season. 

Back to the topic at hand; it wouldn't surprise me if there is a substitute for gasoline powered vehicles sometime in the future, but unless there is some huge advancement in battery technology, battery powered vehicles isn't the answer. Wind and solar will not produce enough electricity to replace what supplies us with electricity today, not to mention the additional need for electricity if all cars and all buildings were to run on strictly electric power.

The time we are in now reminds me of when the government was forcing those horrible curly fluorescent light bulbs down our throats 20 year ago to replace incandescent bulbs. Everyone admitted that those things really sucked and were not good for the environment (when disposed of), but a better and cleaner technology eventually emerged in the way of LED bulbs. And everyone loves LED bulbs. Right now, there's a big government push for electric cars, but I just can't help to think that in time, something far better will be in our future and we'll look back and compare electric cars to the horrible curly bulbs of the past.

Hydrogen cars were the future when I was young...only heat and water as emissions. Seemed the obvious choice to me...especially where long range is required...Wonder what happened there?

There's a bunch of scientists working on Transporters.
They transported a chile dog.
Unfortunately, when it materialized
the bun was on the inside. 

The poluted city is closer to you than you think. Mexico DF. And when i went to the mountains around Caracas, the pollution is visible specially ln downtown area. So it can be ANY city in the world

The dry waterfall pic was taken just right when I said, on a extreme dry season due the enviromental changes. The dry season never reaches that hard. That pic was taken to get warned about what we can reach.

At the same time the most powerfull electrical dam in Vzla got the lowest lever posible, allmost to get air into the turbines having to stop the hidroelectric plant

Is a fact glaciars at mountains are being reduced too wich also serves drinking water to rivers.

Big forest are being reduced buddy.. amazonian forest is the clearer example nowdays.

Once again, I'm not being apocalyptic, but if we don't take seriously this, NOW that we have time, we can kill ourself our only home. Challenger340 already mentioned, the natural disasters have been increased decade after decade in a geometric progresion, meeting with the technology  and industrial progression. That's not casuality

But must be a team job to make it softly and gently for everyone, without a need to cost a cent for ANYBODY. We paid the technology available at the moment, you can't blame now for that and make me pay my lifestyle for that now. The change should be unnoticeable to make it comfortably for everyone.

Is just about balance

Nacho, how are things in Venezuela ? Or did you move to Spain ? I can't remember.

I'm in Spain right now and more here than In Venezuela right now, but still try to stablish in Spain. Having hard times to be on a decent job yet.

I try to don't think in Vzla right now. My mom and some other family members are still there and I'm trying to help as far I can, but I have to get focused here. Vzla won't be anymore like used to be anytime soon.

 Glad your in Spain. Much better place to live. I have visited several cities there. Love it.

New York

(https://media.timeout.com/images/103877022/630/472/image.jpg)

Of course on a windy day, NY never looks like that, but that doesn't mean the pollution is not being produced, just not getting stuck there.

So is closer to you than you think, St Louis, Los Angeles, Chicago... you name it!

Quote from: odcics2 on December 08, 2019, 09:24:56 AM
There's a bunch of scientists working on Transporters.
They transported a chile dog.
Unfortunately, when it materialized
the bun was on the inside. 

I think this is it...


(https://media1.tenor.com/images/1e6504978c1f51c5ddd53f27ac8cdaa1/tenor.gif?itemid=14167100)

[quote author=Mytur Binsdirti link=topic=136325.msg1695483#msg1695483

And you also can't say that all of the forests are going to disappear. Yes, we have to take care of our environment, but let's not get hysterical.
[/quote]

It sure is, they are chopping more of it down everyday, to put up solar panels so they can run their electronic devices!

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 08, 2019, 10:37:15 AM

Quote from: odcics2 on December 08, 2019, 09:24:56 AM
There's a bunch of scientists working on Transporters.
They transported a chile dog.
Unfortunately, when it materialized
the bun was on the inside. 

I think this is it...


(https://media1.tenor.com/images/1e6504978c1f51c5ddd53f27ac8cdaa1/tenor.gif?itemid=14167100)

:2thumbs:
:cheers:

Quote from: chargervert on December 08, 2019, 10:59:02 AM

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 08, 2019, 05:36:23 AM

And you also can't say that all of the forests are going to disappear. Yes, we have to take care of our environment, but let's not get hysterical.

It sure is, they are chopping more of it down everyday, to put up solar panels so they can run their electronic devices!

Yeap! Ridiculous! That's what I say is all about balance. Every kind of energy production comes in an enviromental disturb. Which one is the less agressive?

About electric cars you will need more silicious, copper and still use same ammount of plastic, steel, and now, litium. And everything comes from same mother nature. Just saving smog from cars. Nices step, but the rest?

Oil will be still needed just not for cars' fuel but airplanes, ships. Plastic, tires, and a long etc list of products coming from oil.

Once again, will need a balance

  
What we really need, is about 7 billion fewer people on the planet.  

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on December 08, 2019, 04:44:49 PM
 
What we really need, is about 7 billion fewer people on the planet.  

And that is where this is ultimately going.  If some bacteria doesn't wipe us out, the government will have to fix that too.

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on December 08, 2019, 04:44:49 PM
 
What we really need, is about 7 billion fewer people on the planet.  

That will come when every nation has Nukes. WWIII

This pretty much sums up the carbon debate..................



(https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/attachments/doc-jpg.879146/)

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 10, 2019, 06:00:55 AM
This pretty much sums up the carbon debate..................



(https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/attachments/doc-jpg.879146/)

The Rise of The Machines. 

There really is a Skynet. 

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 10, 2019, 06:00:55 AM
This pretty much sums up the carbon debate..................



(https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/attachments/doc-jpg.879146/)

Should be real interesting to watch the "weather" over the next 10 years....
and,
come back to this thread on here in 2029.

I mean once in awhile we see threads dug up from back in 2009 in here ?

Anyone care to make a few predictions for Electric cars in 10 years ? or the weather/climate in California ?

Lots more electrics car....like anywhere else in the World....and ten years is to short for any meaningful weather data....but there will be a lots less glaciers and ice sheets on the planet cuz thats happening real fast (much faster than they predicted even five years ago)....but I'm thinking there already not many of those in California!!

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 15, 2019, 01:09:34 PM
Lots more electrics car....like anywhere else in the World....and ten years is to short for any meaningful weather data....but there will be a lots less glaciers and ice sheets on the planet cuz thats happening real fast (much faster than they predicted even five years ago)....but I'm thinking there already not many of those in California!!

Happening much faster here in Canada.... and faster yet the further North you go from here ?

In 10 years we could see dramatic changes here in Canada.... imo, sufficient for a very meaningful indication of the changes, we're losing Glaciers very rapidly.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=glaciers+growing+aroumd+the+world&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&rec_search=1&refig=46e4be7a8e8c481fa7a7585eb10078d5&sp=-1&pq=glaciers+growing+aroumd+the+worl&sc=1-32&qs=n&sk=&cvid=46e4be7a8e8c481fa7a7585eb10078d5

I'll just leave this here, make of it what you will

There will always be anomalies as with everything else....and there will always be those looking hard to dry and disprove whats is proven and obvious....Ill leave this here...make of it what you will! LOL

https://www.livescience.com/24310-flat-earth-belief.html (https://www.livescience.com/24310-flat-earth-belief.html)

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 15, 2019, 04:07:27 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 15, 2019, 01:09:34 PM
Lots more electrics car....like anywhere else in the World....and ten years is to short for any meaningful weather data....but there will be a lots less glaciers and ice sheets on the planet cuz thats happening real fast (much faster than they predicted even five years ago)....but I'm thinking there already not many of those in California!!

Happening much faster here in Canada.... and faster yet the further North you go from here ?

In 10 years we could see dramatic changes here in Canada.... imo, sufficient for a very meaningful indication of the changes, we're losing Glaciers very rapidly.

2 years ago last September, my wife and I went on a 13 day land/cruise excursions to Alaska and one of the places the cruise ship went to was Glacier Bay. The captain stopped the ship in the middle of the bay and put on the bow thrusters and turned the engine pods sideways which made the ship do 3 or 4 slow donuts in the middle of the bay enabling everyone having a good look no matter where they were on the ship. While the ship was rotating they were telling the history of the bay and how the glaciers are shrinking year after year. However, to my surprise, the didn't blame it on global warming, rather they were saying that it was naturally occurring. Check out the link below...

https://www.nps.gov/glba/learn/nature/glacier-bay-s-glacial-history.htm

There were a couple of other places that we went to during the trip where the speakers talked about the ice retreating and it was no big deal to them, just nature doing its thing.

You can't blame this centuries-old naturally occurring event on man and so called carbon pollution. A huge portion of the Earth was covered in ICE 10,000 years ago, yet it melted without the help of internal combustion engines or other fossil fuels changing the climate. How is that possible?

Lol...why let the facts get in the way of a good story...as they say.

Whose facts though?

QuoteA huge portion of the Earth was covered in ICE 10,000 years ago, yet it melted without the help of internal combustion engines or other fossil fuels changing the climate. How is that possible?

Current evidence suggests a shower of comets whacked the earth.  It was catastrophic.  



How bad?  Go talk to an old guy named Noah.  He built an Ark to get through it.  

Seriously, his story is older than the Bible.  There are similar stories like it all over the world.  DNA evidence says the human population was cut way down around that time.


Natural event?  Yeah.  But it still sucked for Noah's neighbors.  We might want to avoid rapid climate changes when we can.  
 

Quote from: Ghoste on December 16, 2019, 09:16:39 AM
Whose facts though?

Exactly.


Here's a new working link to my last post above....


https://www.nps.gov/glba/learn/nature/glacier-bay-s-glacial-history.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exEUZS6bH3w  (He's Italian.)  :lol:

Quote from: Ghoste on December 16, 2019, 09:16:39 AM
Whose facts though?

Really?????....do you not have the internet over their?? Pretty much every scientist who ever studied it thats who....and no they are not all government sponsored conspirators as many on here seem to be thinking. The evidence is so overpowering that many of the sceptical scientists and those that plain did not believe it was happening are now agreeing. The fact is that since we started burning fossil fuels in quantity  (roughly 150 years ish) the carbon in the atmosphere has gone up faster than it has EVER gone up before without a massive natural disaster happening.
I love cars and flying places and eating meet and heating my house and all the other things that dont help...and to be honest Im probably too selfish to change the habits of a lifetime....but as much as I also used to argue that it was all bollocks too......it does not take much to realise I was wrong. Its laughable that there are posters on here who believe in God without question and without one piece of evidence that he existed that would ever stand up in court......yes climate change???....oh no thats all nonsense!! " Some people you just cant reach......".LOL!
On the plus point my rainy cool country should start having better summers!!!....that said the Gulf stream which keeps us warm in winter (we on the same latitude as New York and Moscow....but dont have snow for that very reason) could be pushed South by climate change apparently.....not so good....South Of France ...here I come!!

Im out!!! Going back to posting about cars!!

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 16, 2019, 04:18:34 AM
There will always be anomalies as with everything else....and there will always be those looking hard to dry and disprove whats is proven and obvious....Ill leave this here...make of it what you will! LOL

https://www.livescience.com/24310-flat-earth-belief.html (https://www.livescience.com/24310-flat-earth-belief.html)

I get it, the facts from those who believe in global warming are indisputable truth and facts that show the contrary are just anomalies. Thanks for clearing that up.  :2thumbs:

When I was child in Caracas, remember "foggish" mornings when I woke up before to go to school and the need to get a jacket. 10 years later, on my last year of school, never saw a fog and never needed a jacket anymore in the morning.

Caracas is a city in a valley and I could see how constructions got into the mountains all around the city, so forests were dissapearing. City population got duplicated on those years, and began to see the heavy pollution when I was to the Avila ( a Mountain National Park at the north of the city, 2675 meters high ) to camping. That was a change in just 10-12 years.

Those who never have noticed the change on their area, will never believe what is happening is for real.

Quote from: HANDM on December 16, 2019, 12:54:09 AM
https://www.bing.com/search?q=glaciers+growing+aroumd+the+world&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&rec_search=1&refig=46e4be7a8e8c481fa7a7585eb10078d5&sp=-1&pq=glaciers+growing+aroumd+the+worl&sc=1-32&qs=n&sk=&cvid=46e4be7a8e8c481fa7a7585eb10078d5

I'll just leave this here, make of it what you will

Interesting page ?
But why do all the articles direct to webpages with names like
iceagenow.info"
or
"Ihatethemedia.com"
or
"skepticalscience.com"

I think that Donald comb-over dude calls that Fake News doesn't he ?

All I know is you should SEE what we SEE here in Canada
I've personally seen 7 decades.... I KNOW where I used to be able to skate/play hockey as a Kid ?
My dog went swimming in it last week ?

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 16, 2019, 12:23:06 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 16, 2019, 04:18:34 AM
There will always be anomalies as with everything else....and there will always be those looking hard to dry and disprove whats is proven and obvious....Ill leave this here...make of it what you will! LOL

https://www.livescience.com/24310-flat-earth-belief.html (https://www.livescience.com/24310-flat-earth-belief.html)

I get it, the facts from those who believe in global warming are indisputable truth and facts that show the contrary are just anomalies. Thanks for clearing that up.  :2thumbs:

I'd just like to know.... based in Physics ? or Chemistry ? or whatever ?
and I know nobody likes "science".....
but just what are the "effects" of burning on average 90 Million barrels of Oil daily for the last 60 Years ? and on average 60 million barrels a day for the 30 years prior ?

NO "effects" whatsoever ?

Then someone explain why the last 5 Hottest years on record occurred between 2014 and 2018 since records have been kept going back 139 years ?
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/02/2018-fourth-warmest-year-ever-noaa-nasa-reports/

I mean from Ice Core sampling and Geological samples.... the last time Earth's atmospheric CO2 climbed this high within a 100 year period..... the Dinosaurs went extinct ?
it was called the "Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous%E2%80%93Paleogene_extinction_event

and is thought to have been triggered by an asteroid impact that formed the Gulf of Mexico... a very sudden ACUTE event ?

I mean don't get me wrong here.... Earth's climate has always changed.... Earth's temperature has had Ice Ages and Hotter eons..... but those changes occurred over TENS of THOUSANDS of Years ?
They were NOT rapid ACUTE changes within 100 Years as we are seeing today.... same as the cretaceous extinction event ?

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 16, 2019, 08:44:15 PM

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 16, 2019, 12:23:06 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 16, 2019, 04:18:34 AM
There will always be anomalies as with everything else....and there will always be those looking hard to dry and disprove whats is proven and obvious....Ill leave this here...make of it what you will! LOL

https://www.livescience.com/24310-flat-earth-belief.html (https://www.livescience.com/24310-flat-earth-belief.html)

I get it, the facts from those who believe in global warming are indisputable truth and facts that show the contrary are just anomalies. Thanks for clearing that up.  :2thumbs:

I'd just like to know.... based in Physics ? or Chemistry ? or whatever ?
and I know nobody likes "science".....
but just what are the "effects" of burning on average 90 Million barrels of Oil daily for the last 60 Years ? and on average 60 million barrels a day for the 30 years prior ?

NO "effects" whatsoever ?

Then someone explain why the last 5 Hottest years on record occurred between 2014 and 2018 since records have been kept going back 139 years ?
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/02/2018-fourth-warmest-year-ever-noaa-nasa-reports/

I mean from Ice Core sampling and Geological samples.... the last time Earth's atmospheric CO2 climbed this high within a 100 year period..... the Dinosaurs went extinct ?
it was called the "Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous%E2%80%93Paleogene_extinction_event

and is thought to have been triggered by an asteroid impact that formed the Gulf of Mexico... a very sudden ACUTE event ?

I mean don't get me wrong here.... Earth's climate has always changed.... Earth's temperature has had Ice Ages and Hotter eons..... but those changes occurred over TENS of THOUSANDS of Years ?
They were NOT rapid ACUTE changes within 100 Years as we are seeing today.... same as the cretaceous extinction event ?

Oh, I see, your sites are completely credible and not at all fake news....... :2thumbs:

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 16, 2019, 08:44:15 PM

I'd just like to know.... based in Physics ? or Chemistry ? or whatever ?
and I know nobody likes "science".....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GllSfiwCEtY

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 16, 2019, 08:44:15 PM
but just what are the "effects" of burning on average 90 Million barrels of Oil daily for the last 60 Years ? and on average 60 million barrels a day for the 30 years prior ?

NO "effects" whatsoever ?

No doubt that has an effect, but it isn't as catastrophic as some make it out to be. When Mt. St. Helen blew up, the effects of the billions of tons of pollution that spewed into the atmosphere lasted quite a while, but we all survived.

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 16, 2019, 08:44:15 PM
Then someone explain why the last 5 Hottest years on record occurred between 2014 and 2018 since records have been kept going back 139 years ?
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/02/2018-fourth-warmest-year-ever-noaa-nasa-reports/

Geological records stretching back millions of years indicate a number of large variations in Earth's climate. prior to the effects of man. You do agree that these changes have been caused by many natural factors, including changes in the sun, volcanoes, Earth's orbit. So, how much warming today is naturally occurring and how much is caused by man? Can anyone say?


Remember the Time magazine covers like this...


(http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/2006/1101060403_400.jpg)

Has all the arctic ice melted and the polar bears all died in the nearly 20 years since this came out? Of course not, it was all hysterics designed to push an agenda.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/10/07/experts-said-arctic-sea-ice-would-melt-entirely-by-september-201/

Ill just add this...don't know why...the closed minded of you have made your minds up regardless!!! LOL.

https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php (https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php)

Quote from: alfaitalia on December 17, 2019, 06:58:40 AM
Ill just add this...don't know why...the closed minded of you have made your minds up regardless!!! LOL.

https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php (https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php)

I'm not closed minded; rather I'm of the belief that we have to take care of our environment & I think here in the US, we're doing a pretty good job. Having been around as long as I have been, I've seen that every predicted climate apocalypse has never come true. Once again, here's the link I posted several pages back....

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions

If you notice, the time frame for climate alarmists is always 10 years. Well 10 years till doomsday was 40 years ago & we're still all here and doing fine.

Many believe the hysterics from the climate whores and pimps who live lavish lifestyles travelling all around the world in their private jets, all the while telling us surfs how we have to cut back on the use of fossil fuels. Can you blame me for not choosing to believe them and see them as nothing but hypocrites?

https://pagesix.com/2019/07/30/a-listers-flock-to-google-summit-in-private-jets-mega-yachts-to-talk-climate-change/

Those hypocrites will never live their lives completely without fossil fuels and fossil fuel generated electricity, but that's what they want for you and me. And the same goes for all of Greta's blind followers.

Back to electric cars; when you look into what it takes to build electric cars and what fuels them, you can see that they are anything but "green".

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/how-green-electric-car-really

I do think that someday there will be a replacement for gasoline & diesel fuel and the replacement may or may not be electric, but if it is, there will be a better form of power than the batteries that power today's cars.

   Yea, if I charge my TELSA from a plant using coal my car is hence "coal powered".  :lol: The pollution is the issue here not perceived effects. The commercial with "Chief Iron Eyes" (The Italian guy.) crying was created and funded the makers of cans and bottles, a source of pollution.
   Pollution is driving the electric car market, nothing else. Much of the world has teeny tiny little cars, trucks and scooters that are banned here in USA as unsafe in a country full of "BIG CARS". (But the little cars have very efficient engines.)
  Ironic to have a bunch of "Charger" owners debating electric cars that need charging!  :lol:

That's a big "IF" about charging from coal fired plants.  Texas now has just as much wind/solar power as coal fired power (natural gas still leads the pack) and next year will tip even more to renewables.  Go figure, for a state that is as big into oil and gas.  Anyway, my wife and I have looked on an EV and will probably get one, in 2020, for around town.  I'll still keep my truck and we have the Charger so got it covered.  EVs keep getting cheaper and better so our time is coming.  We even considered adding so solar panels to the roof to make up for the electricity used, but that's a whole separate discussion.   Solar panels are still not cheap but keep getting cheaper so who knows where our tipping point is?

Quote from: b5blue on December 17, 2019, 12:12:49 PM
     Ironic to have a bunch of "Charger" owners debating electric cars that need charging!  :lol:

:lol:

I don't think NASA research ?
nor
NASA's recorded historical climate data ?

is neither:
* hysterical
* climate alarmist
or a product of
* climate whores and pimps

But I do believe anyone who is open minded ?
can benefit spending 10 Minutes reading NASA's observations on the planet's "Vital Signs" (their words).... if for no other reason than perspective to that open minded self awareness ?

I think everything anyone may wish to know is covered here by NASA ?
https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on December 17, 2019, 03:24:38 PM

Quote from: b5blue on December 17, 2019, 12:12:49 PM
     Ironic to have a bunch of "Charger" owners debating electric cars that need charging!  :lol:

:lol:

Damn CNN took over this forumn.  :brickwall: :brickwall:

  
Electric drivetrains are a relevant topic for car guys.  

Higher performance potential + more power/fuel efficient + less complexity = the future of cars.



Can EVs do everything better than ICE?  No.

But they do enough better to join the party, command respect, and dominate in many areas.  

Don't worry about the climate.

Worry about stuff like this!  Read the entire article!  YIKES!

https://www.wxyz.com/news/yellow-ooze-leaking-onto-i-696-identified-as-hexavalent-chromium-msp-says

All over the world, stuff like this is getting mixed into the earth, water and air. 

Cancer............   :rotz:

"it froze into a yellow blob"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUsyXQ8Wrs

Turns out the place was closed for a few years.
How much got into the groundwater before making it to the freeway? 

Public official: "No immediate threat."    :scratchchin:

Officials say yellow-green chemical oozing onto I-696 poses no threat to drinking water, air quality :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:

Quote from: odcics2 on December 22, 2019, 08:43:30 PM
Officials say yellow-green chemical oozing onto I-696 poses no threat to drinking water, air quality :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:

Hex chrome will not have a air impact.  Its pretty mobile in soil, so I would assume there is some threat to ground water, but how much will depend on local site geology.  And arguably, if no one is drinking local ground water, technically, there is no threat.

Quote from: BSB67 on December 22, 2019, 09:49:03 PM

Quote from: odcics2 on December 22, 2019, 08:43:30 PM
Officials say yellow-green chemical oozing onto I-696 poses no threat to drinking water, air quality :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:

Hex chrome will not have a air impact.  Its pretty mobile in soil, so I would assume there is some threat to ground water, but how much will depend on local site geology.  And arguably, if no one is drinking local ground water, technically, there is no threat.

The thing is that it was leaking for 3 years before it finally surfaced.  Whatever got into any underground drains went to Lake St. Clair.  Detroit picks up it's water downriver of that lake.  I already had cancer 10 years ago.  I don't need anymore.     :Twocents:

More info, trickling out -

https://www.wxyz.com/news/owner-of-company-behind-green-ooze-on-i-696-dug-a-pit-to-store-37-000-gallons-of-hexavalent-chromium

Former business owner serving time in jail.

Thousands more toxic sites in Michigan with no money to clean it up.   :rotz:

https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-environment-watch/michigan-has-7300-toxic-sites-money-cleanups-almost-gone

The map of Michigan looks like it has measles. 

Greeeeeaaaat.  ::)

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 29, 2019, 08:24:21 AM
Greeeeeaaaat.  ::)

Keeps getting 'better'...   That idiot owner dug the 20' x 50' earth floor waste pit below the basement of his building in 1993.

All of Michigan's watershed eventually drains into the Great Lakes.      :icon_smile_blackeye:   

Quote from: odcics2 on December 31, 2019, 08:53:26 AM

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 29, 2019, 08:24:21 AM
Greeeeeaaaat.  ::)

Keeps getting 'better'...   That idiot owner dug the 20' x 50' earth floor waste pit below the basement of his building in 1993.

All of Michigan's watershed eventually drains into the Great Lakes.      :icon_smile_blackeye:   

But not form a basement pit.

None the less, the guy deserves jail time

Quote from: BSB67 on December 31, 2019, 04:36:03 PM

Quote from: odcics2 on December 31, 2019, 08:53:26 AM

Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 29, 2019, 08:24:21 AM
Greeeeeaaaat.  ::)

Keeps getting 'better'...   That idiot owner dug the 20' x 50' earth floor waste pit below the basement of his building in 1993.

All of Michigan's watershed eventually drains into the Great Lakes.      :icon_smile_blackeye:  

But not form a basement pit.

None the less, the guy deserves jail time

Actually, it does get into the ground water and that ends up getting into the aquifer.  Gravity eventually feeds that into the 50+ feet lower lake St. Clair.

That assclown is currently serving time. They are looking at additional charges.   

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that you will not be able to buy a new petrol (gas to you!), diesel or hybrid car in the UK after 2042....Well today the UK government has bought that date forward to 2035...and it's likely to move forward again as we are well ahead on the infrastructure and the cars are leaping forward in tech and range. Also we were unlikely to meet our near zero overall emissions target if we left it until 2042. All of a sudden a change that seemed ages away looks pretty close.

The momentum this has is incredible.  In Automotive News there is nearly a daily continuous stream of stories and information on where all the majors are going with their EV programs, schedule and dollars.  Nothing about internal combustion engines....nothing.

Couple things I remember:
Toyota will have an electric option for every model by 2025
Cadillac will be all electric by 2030
Audi will have 30 EV models by 2025.
GM will offer an electric truck in 2021
Electric Hummer and Cybertruck in 2022
Tesla Model S hits 380 mile range
GM commits $2.2B to battery plant for 2022 production start up
GM Cruise Origin, autonomous EV dedicated to ride sharing - 2022
EV investment GM-$10 B, VW-$12B, Ford-$11B
Boston Globe forecast 51% of market will be EV by 2030.

How many Super Bowl automotive commercials dedicated to internal combustion vehicles?  Were there any?

Yep, they'll never figure our this battery thing.

Quote from: BSB67 on February 04, 2020, 07:19:29 PM
The momentum this has is incredible.  In Automotive News there is nearly a daily continuous stream of stories and information on where all the majors are going with their EV programs, schedule and dollars.  Nothing about internal combustion engines....nothing.

Couple things I remember:
Toyota will have an electric option for every model by 2025
Cadillac will be all electric by 2030
Audi will have 30 EV models by 2025.
GM will offer an electric truck in 2021
Electric Hummer and Cybertruck in 2022
Tesla Model S hits 380 mile range
GM commits $2.2B to battery plant for 2022 production start up
GM Cruise Origin, autonomous EV dedicated to ride sharing - 2022
EV investment GM-$10 B, VW-$12B, Ford-$11B
Boston Globe forecast 51% of market will be EV by 2030.

Yep, they'll never figure our this battery thing.

And nothing from Dodge ??

You mean FCA.

The announced merger of FCA with PSA is to help jump start FCA's lagging EV program.  They did announce Jeep is to spend $10B on EV in the next 2 years

VW is head long and committed to EV.  They're planning 1.5M in sales in 2025.  Honda thinks that EV's have already leveled out and they are not betting on a big shift to EV.  Kinda funny.

Quote from: BSB67 on February 04, 2020, 07:19:29 PM

GM commits $2.2B to battery plant for 2022 production start up

Do you know what they built at this plant previously?     An electric car that did not sell (the Volt).   :smilielol:

Quote from: BSB67 on February 04, 2020, 07:40:53 PM
VW is head long and committed to EV.  They're planning 1.5M in sales in 2025.  Honda thinks that EV's have already leveled out and they are not betting on a big shift to EV.  Kinda funny.

All correct.  And if you are VW, you had better be right.

Ironic that the preachy Audi Super Bowl ad portraying gas powered cars as "dirty" come from the ever-so-smug Germans who brought us Dieselgate.     Oh yeah, we're just supposed to "let it go".

Quote from: Aero426 on February 04, 2020, 08:34:49 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on February 04, 2020, 07:40:53 PM
VW is head long and committed to EV.  They're planning 1.5M in sales in 2025.  Honda thinks that EV's have already leveled out and they are not betting on a big shift to EV.  Kinda funny.

All correct.  And if you are VW, you had better be right.

Ironic that the preachy Audi Super Bowl ad portraying gas powered cars as "dirty" come from the ever-so-smug Germans who brought us Dieselgate.     Oh yeah, we're just supposed to "let it go".

No, don't let it go.  But also you should not necessarily judge the entire corporation based on the misdeeds of a few.

Quote from: BSB67 on February 04, 2020, 07:19:29 PM
The momentum this has is incredible.  In Automotive News there is nearly a daily continuous stream of stories and information on where all the majors are going with their EV programs, schedule and dollars.  Nothing about internal combustion engines....nothing.

Couple things I remember:
Toyota will have an electric option for every model by 2025
Cadillac will be all electric by 2030
Audi will have 30 EV models by 2025.
GM will offer an electric truck in 2021
Electric Hummer and Cybertruck in 2022
Tesla Model S hits 380 mile range
GM commits $2.2B to battery plant for 2022 production start up
GM Cruise Origin, autonomous EV dedicated to ride sharing - 2022
EV investment GM-$10 B, VW-$12B, Ford-$11B
Boston Globe forecast 51% of market will be EV by 2030.

How many Super Bowl automotive commercials dedicated to internal combustion vehicles?  Were there any?

Yep, they'll never figure our this battery thing.

Except that unless it is a Tesla, to date, no one is buying.  

Did you catch the 2019 final sales results?   Tesla sold 58% (!) of all EV's in the United States.     I attribute this to the perceived cool factor.   It's like Apple to some people.   Everything else is uncool.  

How dismal are current EV sales in the USA?      The number of Hellcats produced in 2019 would put them in the top 10 of all EV sales.   :smilielol:

https://insideevs.com/news/343998/monthly-plug-in-ev-sales-scorecard/ (https://insideevs.com/news/343998/monthly-plug-in-ev-sales-scorecard/)

This is a typical "It won't be long now!..." article that we are inundated with on a daily basis, predicting a sea change in the industry.    It quotes one Xavier Mosquet of the Boston Consulting Group.      The best part is the quote buried in the article about ride sharing not gaining traction as quickly as previously predicted.

One other finding could come as a big surprise to those who've been predicting a big shift away from personal vehicle ownership as ride-sharing services like Uber and Lyft gain traction. But the new study finds that costs for these services aren't likely to come down as quickly as expected, even if driverless vehicles take over.

"The ambitious forecasts for shared cars (have been) based on the idea we would shed car ownership" in large numbers, said Mosquet. "We don't see that happening, now that we have more data on the shelf. Someday, it could become cheaper than owning a car (but, right now), owning a car is cheaper except in a few places like Manhattan."

And with EVs expected to become less and less expensive to own and operate, Mosquet says fewer motorists will be willing to give up the freedom and flexibility of having a car in the driveway and always at the ready."

Well no kidding, Sherlock!   You do not need a Masters to figure out that people will be slow to abandon the personal freedom of an automobile, whether it is a Chevy Spark or whatever fancy car Mr Mosquet drives, or is driven in.    The point is,  no one knows what is really going to happen.     I think it will happen much faster in Europe and Asia, largely to government decree.    But elsewhere, bold predictions now are all subject to revision in the future.  

https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2020/01/evs-at-the-tipping-point/ (https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2020/01/evs-at-the-tipping-point/)

   

Quote from: Aero426 on February 04, 2020, 10:20:22 PM
This is a typical "It won't be long now!..." article that we are inundated with on a daily basis, predicting a sea change in the industry.    It quotes one Xavier Mosquet of the Boston Consulting Group.      The best part is the quote buried in the article about ride sharing not gaining traction as quickly as previously predicted.

One other finding could come as a big surprise to those who've been predicting a big shift away from personal vehicle ownership as ride-sharing services like Uber and Lyft gain traction. But the new study finds that costs for these services aren't likely to come down as quickly as expected, even if driverless vehicles take over.

"The ambitious forecasts for shared cars (have been) based on the idea we would shed car ownership" in large numbers, said Mosquet. "We don't see that happening, now that we have more data on the shelf. Someday, it could become cheaper than owning a car (but, right now), owning a car is cheaper except in a few places like Manhattan."

And with EVs expected to become less and less expensive to own and operate, Mosquet says fewer motorists will be willing to give up the freedom and flexibility of having a car in the driveway and always at the ready."

Well no kidding, Sherlock!   You do not need a Masters to figure out that people will be slow to abandon the personal freedom of an automobile, whether it is a Chevy Spark or whatever fancy car Mr Mosquet drives, or is driven in.    The point is,  no one knows what is really going to happen.     I think it will happen much faster in Europe and Asia, largely to government decree.    But elsewhere, bold predictions now are all subject to revision in the future.  

https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2020/01/evs-at-the-tipping-point/ (https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2020/01/evs-at-the-tipping-point/)

   

agreed

I wonder how the Mustang Mach E will go over?

Quote from: Ghoste on February 05, 2020, 06:11:19 AM
I wonder how the Mustang Mach E will go over?

It won't steal any Tesla buyers.   But I think it will sell well enough to introduce the Ford customer base and the dealer network to the idea of electrification.   That part about the dealers buying in is equally important.  

Ford also has to get the car to market.   Fall 2020 really means spring 2021 to me.  

Quote from: Aero426 on February 04, 2020, 08:08:17 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on February 04, 2020, 07:19:29 PM

GM commits $2.2B to battery plant for 2022 production start up

Do you know what they built at this plant previously?     An electric car that did not sell (the Volt).   :smilielol:

Volt was ahead of its time in a way. Not exactly sure why GM gave up on it right as the EV/Plug in craze is going into full effect. Ive had one for a year, needed something efficient and that would give me access to the carpool lanes here in SoCal when I took a job w/ a 60+ mile commute. It's a great little car.  I've put 40K miles on it in the year I've had it and had no issues whatsoever. It does have the cheap/crappy interior that we all know and love in our domestic vehicles.

The 50 mile (more like 35-40 in real world conditions) all-battery range is not enough for my drive, but switching between full EV and hybrid mode I still get 45 mpg. My wife drives it around town when im out of town for work, and she loves the fact that she can go a whole week without using any gas at all. She's sold on EV/hybrid cars, and quite frankly so am I. I have no problem with going all electric for a daily as long as I still have a gas guzzler to play with on weekends. Next car is going to be a Tesla, Jaguar I-Pace, or something new that may come out. A hybrid / plug in / all EV Grand Cherokee would be ideal, but FCA is spinning its wheels.

Anyway, I read something about Jeep coming out w/ a plug in Wrangler?

In this continent no serious money is going in to hybrids....as they will be banned with gas/diesel engines in 10 to 15 years...so no point. In my mind they are the worst of both worlds....it's full electric or stick to fossil fuels...until hydrogen fuel cells take over in 20 years or so.

Quote from: alfaitalia on February 05, 2020, 02:27:57 PM
 In my mind [hybrids] are the worst of both worlds....it's full electric or stick to fossil fuels...until hydrogen fuel cells take over in 20 years or so.

yes and no. I can see that w/ a conventional "parallel" hybrid. But plug-ins are definitely better. As  I mentioned in my previous post, were it not for my unusually long commute, I could go days or weeks w/out using any gas on my Volt. that being said, I don't have to worry about running out of juice because I have the gas engine to fall back on. I'll go full electric when I can do a good 400 miles on a single charge, given how often I have to drive to remote places for work.

A local shop near me said they are seeing more and more Hybrids coming in with hammered gas engines and weak or troubled battery issues. They are finding nobody has the lump of cash to spring for a battery so they run the crap out of the gas engine. 

Quote from: b5blue on February 06, 2020, 08:59:17 AM
A local shop near me said they are seeing more and more Hybrids coming in with hammered gas engines and weak or troubled battery issues. They are finding nobody has the lump of cash to spring for a battery so they run the crap out of the gas engine.  

These cars need to be viewed as devices.    While your example above is not a Tesla, I am sure the average Muskian buyer views his car like a very expensive Iphone.     He's not going to keep it forever.  When the next big thing comes out, he'll trade on that.      

If you were ever going to just lease a car and walk away, an EV would be perfect.  

Quote from: Aero426 on February 06, 2020, 10:42:34 AM

Quote from: b5blue on February 06, 2020, 08:59:17 AM
A local shop near me said they are seeing more and more Hybrids coming in with hammered gas engines and weak or troubled battery issues. They are finding nobody has the lump of cash to spring for a battery so they run the crap out of the gas engine.  

These cars need to be viewed as devices.    While your example above is not a Tesla, I am sure the average Muskian buyer views his car like a very expensive Iphone.     He's not going to keep it forever.  When the next big thing comes out, he'll trade on that.      

If you were ever going to just lease a car and walk away, an EV would be perfect.  

that sounds about right. I find it increasingly less likely that I feel "attached" to a new car the way I do to older/classics. I think the last modern car I had that "thing" with was my 2008 Charger R/t, but i owned it for 8 years and did a lot customizing/modding to it and hated to see it go. Ive since owned two newer challengers and two chargers - theyve come and gone or will go. Do I like my Volt? yes. would i get rid of it if something nicer and newer came out an it was time for an upgrade? absolutely.

Cars are becoming appliances.   :yesnod:

Wind up cars are far cleaner than those nasty coal powered electric cars.



(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ChubbyGentleGrayreefshark-size_restricted.gif)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hatav_Rdnno&t=779s

Imagine buying a fully loaded used Tesla, and after you purchase it,  $8000 of high end features that were on the original window sticker just disappear.   Because "you" didn't pay for it.   They actually decontented the guy's car over the air.   

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-removes-autopilot-features-from-customer-1841472617?rev=1580941196331 (https://jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-removes-autopilot-features-from-customer-1841472617?rev=1580941196331)

QuoteImagine buying a fully loaded used Tesla, and after you purchase it,  $8000 of high end features that were on the original window sticker just disappear.   Because "you" didn't pay for it.   They actually decontented the guy's car over the air.  

It's Tesla today.  It will be GM & Ford & Mopar tomorrow.  


We're headed for a future where your car needs mandatory software updates just to run.  Pretty soon they'll start hiding codes in there to make it lose HP or MPG after a certain number of miles if you don't pay for some extra package.  Etc.  As cars become computers with wheels we will get screwed worse and worse.  What are you gonna do when a big dashboard screen craps out and the replacements are discontinued?


This stuff was preventable back when we had a Congress on the public's side.  The only reason the OEMs even stock replacement parts for 10 years after a vehicle is made is because of an old law.  (There goes Big Govt again.  They're always "making it impossible for companies to do business" with their stupid regulations . . . ) 
         

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on February 08, 2020, 07:04:09 PM

QuoteImagine buying a fully loaded used Tesla, and after you purchase it,  $8000 of high end features that were on the original window sticker just disappear.   Because "you" didn't pay for it.   They actually decontented the guy's car over the air.  

It's Tesla today.  It will be GM & Ford & Mopar tomorrow.  


We're headed for a future where your car needs mandatory software updates just to run.  Pretty soon they'll start hiding codes in there to make it lose HP or MPG after a certain number of miles if you don't pay for some extra package.  Etc.  As cars become computers with wheels we will get screwed worse and worse.  What are you gonna do when a big dashboard screen craps out and the replacements are discontinued?


This stuff was preventable back when we had a Congress on the public's side.  The only reason the OEMs even stock replacement parts for 10 years after a vehicle is made is because of an old law.  (That was a case of "Big Govt meddling in a private industry" and "preventing the companies from doing business efficiently" when they should have been "letting the market decide".) 
         

I have a made a sizable commitment to Sonos speakers.  Apparently Sonos, based on recent announcements, does not feel any obligation to support their products after about ten years.  Wish I would have known that.

And you thought smoking at the pump was risky....



(https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/attachments/83934024_10157993934233637_5962650900299251712_n-jpg.907664/)

Quote from: BSB67 on February 08, 2020, 07:21:02 PM

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on February 08, 2020, 07:04:09 PM

QuoteImagine buying a fully loaded used Tesla, and after you purchase it,  $8000 of high end features that were on the original window sticker just disappear.   Because "you" didn't pay for it.   They actually decontented the guy's car over the air.  

It's Tesla today.  It will be GM & Ford & Mopar tomorrow.  


We're headed for a future where your car needs mandatory software updates just to run.  Pretty soon they'll start hiding codes in there to make it lose HP or MPG after a certain number of miles if you don't pay for some extra package.  Etc.  As cars become computers with wheels we will get screwed worse and worse.  What are you gonna do when a big dashboard screen craps out and the replacements are discontinued?


This stuff was preventable back when we had a Congress on the public's side.  The only reason the OEMs even stock replacement parts for 10 years after a vehicle is made is because of an old law.  (That was a case of "Big Govt meddling in a private industry" and "preventing the companies from doing business efficiently" when they should have been "letting the market decide".) 
         

I have a made a sizable commitment to Sonos speakers.  Apparently Sonos, based on recent announcements, does not feel any obligation to support their products after about ten years.  Wish I would have known that.

Todays technology is throw away...  10 years??   They will be obsolete way before that, the way things go!   :yesnod:

I know at one time, the Canadian Auto Workers union had it in their list of socialist utopian dreams was an idea that no one would own cars, they would only lease and the manufacturers would have to take back all cars sold to be recycled.  The suggestions here about leasing your rolling iphone appliance mobile fall easily into that.

      

QuoteI know at one time, the Canadian Auto Workers union had it in their list of socialist utopian dreams was an idea that no one would own cars, they would only lease and the manufacturers would have to take back all cars sold to be recycled.  The suggestions here about leasing your rolling iphone appliance mobile fall easily into that.

That battle will be coming with technology in general.  The better to repeal our rights as consumers.  


If you are technically only "leasing" your car/phone/computer/television/etc then you don't have the right to repair it yourself when it breaks.  You don't have the right to modify things about it that you don't like (but the company does).  You cannot refuse their software updates (which might just be intentionally making it perform worse, to encourage you to upgrade...) Etc.  You pay for it but they still control what you can do with it.  

People won't voluntarily agree to this setup if they have a choice.  But companies can stop offering the choice.  


This nightmare is not here yet.  But things are definitely drifting in this direction.  It's what happens when govt does not protect the public from predatory corporate behavior.

Corporations can be a lot like the modern evolution of feudalism.

Rollerball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUxK1mNups


Well on the way to getting there... 

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on February 11, 2020, 12:34:54 PM
     



That battle will be coming with technology in general.  The better to repeal our rights as consumers.  


If you are technically only "leasing" your car/phone/computer/television/etc then you don't have the right to repair it yourself when it breaks.  You don't have the right to modify things about it that you don't like (but the company does).  You cannot refuse their software updates (which might just be intentionally making it perform worse, to encourage you to upgrade...) Etc.  You pay for it but they still control what you can do with it.  

People won't voluntarily agree to this setup if they have a choice.  But companies can stop offering the choice.  


This nightmare is not here yet.  But things are definitely drifting in this direction.  It's what happens when govt does not protect the public from predatory corporate behavior.

This. I don't get why people only freak out when it's certain things that they care about (cars, in this instance) but are totally ok when it comes to their freedoms / choices being impinged on other things because they believe "its a good thing", or its for "security",  or its the guy/gal they voted for doing it.  

Just watched last Sunday's TOP GEAR....UK version...not that joke you put out over there!...anyway they had the New Porsche Taycan Turbo S (turbo?..lol). All electric, 700 horses, four doors...very impressive review. It's 800 volt rather than 400 most use and on the right charger it only takes 20 minutes to charge it enough to do 200 miles....that's getting there. Drives like a true Porsche should, quite a nice sound and they had it sideways everywhere (4 wheel drive of course)....Looks great too.... The down side?..it's a mere £140,000...about $181,000!

Quote from: alfaitalia on February 12, 2020, 06:14:50 PM
Just watched last Sunday's TOP GEAR....UK version...not that joke you put out over there!...anyway they had the New Porsche Taycan Turbo S (turbo?..lol). All electric, 700 horses, four doors...very impressive review. It's 800 volt rather than 400 most use and on the right charger it only takes 20 minutes to charge it enough to do 200 miles....that's getting there. Drives like a true Porsche should, quite a nice sound and they had it sideways everywhere (4 wheel drive of course)....Looks great too.... The down side?..it's a mere £140,000...about $181,000!

I posted about the Porsche 800 volt battery and 22 minute recharge to 85% three months ago.

For 150K it should have battery packs waiting like my cordless DeWalt! :lol:

Quote from: alfaitalia on February 12, 2020, 06:14:50 PM
Just watched last Sunday's TOP GEAR....UK version...not that joke you put out over there!...anyway they had the New Porsche Taycan Turbo S (turbo?..lol). All electric, 700 horses, four doors...very impressive review. It's 800 volt rather than 400 most use and on the right charger it only takes 20 minutes to charge it enough to do 200 miles....that's getting there. Drives like a true Porsche should, quite a nice sound and they had it sideways everywhere (4 wheel drive of course)....Looks great too.... The down side?..it's a mere £140,000...about $181,000!

I read somewhere that the architecture of the latest 911's was designed so that it will eventually accommodate either a hybrid or full electric drivetrain. Exciting times!

Quote from: Ponch ® on February 13, 2020, 12:23:43 PM


I read somewhere that the architecture of the latest 911's was designed so that it will eventually accommodate either a hybrid or full electric drivetrain. Exciting times!

I believe you are correct about that.   It's coming.   

Quote from: Aero426 on February 13, 2020, 01:35:12 PM

Quote from: Ponch ® on February 13, 2020, 12:23:43 PM


I read somewhere that the architecture of the latest 911's was designed so that it will eventually accommodate either a hybrid or full electric drivetrain. Exciting times!

I believe you are correct about that.   It's coming.   

I'm so getting in on that when it happens.

Quote from: BSB67 on February 12, 2020, 10:14:17 PM

Quote from: alfaitalia on February 12, 2020, 06:14:50 PM
Just watched last Sunday's TOP GEAR....UK version...not that joke you put out over there!...anyway they had the New Porsche Taycan Turbo S (turbo?..lol). All electric, 700 horses, four doors...very impressive review. It's 800 volt rather than 400 most use and on the right charger it only takes 20 minutes to charge it enough to do 200 miles....that's getting there. Drives like a true Porsche should, quite a nice sound and they had it sideways everywhere (4 wheel drive of course)....Looks great too.... The down side?..it's a mere £140,000...about $181,000!

I posted about the Porsche 800 volt battery and 22 minute recharge to 85% three months ago.

Missed that one!!!

And what are thoughts regarding battery life and replacement costs?

This is a great mechanical walk around of the Porsche Taycan.    For all the talk about simplicity of EV versus ICE, the car is insanely complex.       10 piston brakes, air suspension,  heat exchangers (yep, you can still hole a radiator).     There is no way you would want to own one of these outside of warranty.   The depreciation will be massive and the out of warranty costs will eat you alive, even more than the average Porsche.     Can you imagine the sticker shock of a 10 piston caliper?       On the other hand, at a MSRP of $241,500 (!) for a loaded Taycan Turbo S, who's counting pennies? 

Anyway, it is a very informative video and worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjmj-Ztgdek (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjmj-Ztgdek)

       
Interesting walk-thru.  

I see insane complexity because they're chasing 10/10ths of performance though.  And a Hellcat drivetrain still looks a lot more complex than that thing.

The battery management may or may not need to be that thorough.  I dunno.   The brakes could be 2-piston calipers and still drive fine.  

Quote from: BSB67 on October 18, 2019, 06:05:03 AM

It has nothing to do with the environment for me.  And I don't think it does for most people.  I know several people with hybrid cars and it is not about the environment for any of them.  

I pulled up my own post here. 

I'm traveling with a business associate this last week.  I know him well and would call him a friend. I actually hired him nearly 20 years ago.

He's very conservative and a bit of a man's - man.  Voted for Trump, does not believe in global warming, hunts, has a conceal permit, does dirt biking and quad riding with his boys, and believes that kids should get discipline, including the return of the paddle in school. 

He says to me, "hey, I put a down payment on a Cybertruck."  I say, "really, why?"  He says, "$50,000, stainless steel body, 800 hp, 11,000 lb towing, million mile battery guarantee,  why not?".

Give people what they want at a reasonable price and they will buy it.  Sales volume will have nothing to do with people wanting to save the environment.

Some Ford propaganda:

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/02/10/electric-vehicle-owners-more-desirable-dates-according-to-ford-study/

Quote from: BSB67 on February 15, 2020, 02:11:00 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on October 18, 2019, 06:05:03 AM

It has nothing to do with the environment for me.  And I don't think it does for most people.  I know several people with hybrid cars and it is not about the environment for any of them.  

I pulled up my own post here. 

I'm traveling with a business associate this last week.  I know him well and would call him a friend. I actually hired him nearly 20 years ago.

He's very conservative and a bit of a man's - man.  Voted for Trump, does not believe in global warming, hunts, has a conceal permit, does dirt biking and quad riding with his boys, and believes that kids should get discipline, including the return of the paddle in school. 

He says to me, "hey, I put a down payment on a Cybertruck."  I say, "really, why?"  He says, "$50,000, stainless steel body, 800 hp, 11,000 lb towing, million mile battery guarantee,  why not?".

Give people what they want at a reasonable price and they will buy it.  Sales volume will have nothing to do with people wanting to save the environment.

Agree with all you've noted.   Except the Cybertruck won't be $50,000.   It will be $55,000 or better yet $60,000 optimally configured, which is the bait and switch they pulled on the so called $35,000 Model 3 that you realistically could not buy.    And it will be late.   

When the Viper was coming out it was going to be 35K.  Man, we were all excited at the Tech Center!

Well, that never happened....   :rotz:   

Quote from: Lennard on February 07, 2020, 10:30:28 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hatav_Rdnno&t=779s

And a follow-up....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJL9MasBFvM

 Porsche Tincan burns.     

https://insideevs.com/news/399288/porsche-taycan-burns-down-florida/ (https://insideevs.com/news/399288/porsche-taycan-burns-down-florida/)

EV fan boyz are quick to point out that ICE cars burn too.    Yeah, but they don't self-immolate as new cars.    Because of the batteries, an EV fire is very difficult to control. 

I know its coming and Im the dinosaur watching the meteor in the sky get bigger but Im not a fan of the electric movement.  I think the downside to them will turn up after a decade or so of their takeover.  Who knows?

Quote from: Ghoste on February 20, 2020, 06:22:50 AM
I know its coming and Im the dinosaur watching the meteor in the sky get bigger but Im not a fan of the electric movement.  I think the downside to them will turn up after a decade or so of their takeover.  Who knows?

No doubt there will be down sides.  But people (maybe not everyone) will find upsides too.  And, as time goes on, EVs will get better.   I'll say it again,  in 1980, did anyone think they'd ever see a muscle car again?   Things will continue to change, and electric cars are probably not the forever solution either.  But I'll probably not be around long enough to see what's next. 

In the 90's I argued with others who said it (EVs) hasn't been done because it can't be done. They are all eating crow now.  :lol:

Quote from: BSB67 on February 20, 2020, 06:44:11 AM

Quote from: Ghoste on February 20, 2020, 06:22:50 AM
I know its coming and Im the dinosaur watching the meteor in the sky get bigger but Im not a fan of the electric movement.  I think the downside to them will turn up after a decade or so of their takeover.  Who knows?

No doubt there will be down sides.  But people (maybe not everyone) will find upsides too.  And, as time goes on, EVs will get better.   I'll say it again,  in 1980, did anyone think they'd ever see a muscle car again?   Things will continue to change, and electric cars are probably not the forever solution either.  But I'll probably not be around long enough to see what's next.  

Look, there are always those guys who will resist anything new or potentially life changing bc they feel it threatens their way of life or values.

Ask around here and you'll find out that there are still several dudes who won't let go of their 2002 era flip phones bc smart phones are too distracting, or complicated, or expensive, or emit radiation, or spy on you (they're probably right about that one). But cant argue about the awesomeness of being able to bet on horse races, order a pizza, AND watch pr0n with the same device.

QuoteLook, there are always those guys who will resist anything new or potentially life changing bc they feel it threatens their way of life or values.

Ask around here and you'll find out that there are still several dudes who won't let go of their 2002 era flip phones bc smart phones are too distracting, or complicated, or expensive, or emit radiation, or spy on you (they're probably right about that one). But cant argue about the awesomeness of being able to bet on horse races, order a pizza, AND watch pr0n with the same device.

"Hi, I'm a time traveler from 1950.  So, in 2020 do you have free atomic-powered electricity like we thought?"

"No, power prices actually went up.  But we got unlimited free porn now."

                 

It isnt that I feel threatened by it Ponch.  I just happen to like what I have and I enjoy driving my own car.  When gas goes away I wont turn suicidal and become a crotchety old prick whining for the good old days but I will miss playing with the old junk.

QuoteIt isnt that I feel threatened by it Ponch.  I just happen to like what I have and I enjoy driving my own car.  When gas goes away I wont turn suicidal and become a crotchety old prick whining for the good old days but I will miss playing with the old junk.

I just don't see the reason to worry.  Gasoline isn't going anywhere.  There is way, way WAY too much inertia in favor of using it.  (How many middle-eastern wars have we fought?  How many military bases do we have in oil-bearing countries/regions?  These are long term investments.)

Will we reduce gasoline usage in the future?  Yes.

Will we swear off it and make it illegal?  Hell no.  Probably not for decades.  


You can still legally get leaded gasoline or R-12 freon if you hunt around for it.  Those were both officially phased out of production cars before some of the guys on this forum were born.  In north America there isn't even serious discussion of phasing out gasoline yet.  

   

Quote from: Ghoste on February 21, 2020, 06:30:37 AM
It isnt that I feel threatened by it Ponch.  I just happen to like what I have and I enjoy driving my own car.  When gas goes away I wont turn suicidal and become a crotchety old prick whining for the good old days but I will miss playing with the old junk.

I didnt intend to single you out, my bad if it came off that way.

But look through the 16 pages (so far) of posts in this thread and about 2/3 of them are about how EVs and hybrids are part of a vast millennial-deep state-tree hugger-socialist-liberal-Silicon Valley-LGBTQ-Kommiefornia agenda to undermine 'Murrica and our manhood. Meanwhile Im like "shit, I just need something for my daily commute that uses little or no gas and looks good so I can have more money to spend on my guns and rebuild my big block."

Quote from: Ponch ® on February 21, 2020, 12:29:00 PM
Meanwhile Im like "shit, I just need something for my daily commute that uses little or no gas and looks good so I can have more money to spend on my guns and rebuild my big block."

I feel that the majority of non-Tesla EV buyers share the same sentiment.     It's not a technology or "save the planet" purchasing decision.

Quote from: Aero426 on February 21, 2020, 12:45:39 PM

Quote from: Ponch ® on February 21, 2020, 12:29:00 PM
Meanwhile Im like "shit, I just need something for my daily commute that uses little or no gas and looks good so I can have more money to spend on my guns and rebuild my big block."

I feel that the majority of non-Tesla EV buyers share the same sentiment.     It's not a technology or "save the planet" purchasing decision.

For me its about 45% practicality / 45% Technology (I do like new gadgets generally, if one happens to be a car, so be it) / 5% conspicuous consumption / 5% saving the planet. And I love Teslas - I didnt buy one for myself for reasons I've mentioned in prior posts (range not long enough for how much I drive, etc) but I'm pretty sure Mrs. Ponch will be getting one when the lease on her current car is up.

Quote from: Ponch ® on February 21, 2020, 12:29:00 PM


But look through the 16 pages (so far) of posts in this thread and about 2/3 of them are about how EVs and hybrids are part of a vast millennial-deep state-tree hugger-socialist-liberal-Silicon Valley-LGBTQ-Kommiefornia agenda to undermine 'Murrica and our manhood.

Uhhh....MEANWHILE, the mayor of Chico and several other assclown politicians have petitioned Gov Gruesome to accelerate the phase out of fossil fuel use for vehicles in this state.
Fuck those guys. I'd tell those fuckers to their faces that they are idiots.

 
That's Cali voter preferences in action.   Blame your neighbors. 

Everyone is a "snowflake" nowadays, just some are sitting on a pee wallering hunk of dog crap. (So the outlook is not so good.)  :lol: