I'm getting close to assembling (re-assembling) the 505" motor for my '68. I'll move this thread to proven combos once it's finished and dyno'd.
Tip o' the hat to Ron (Firefighter3931) and Challenger340 for their experience and input. That said, as I usually do I'm stirring everyone's advice into my own soup. We'll see how it turns out.
I had to make some difficult choices about my expected usage; I'm going on long tours, and drivability is paramount; I'd like a 600hp motor but I don't think that's realistic given my high mileage and traffic situations. I'm not willing to settle for a stock 318 either, so I'm testing some oddball stuff to see what happens.
Here's the basics;
440 block, +.030" w/4.250" stroke.
-17cc 440source pistons, zero deck.
Edelbrock performer RPM heads, stock ports, milled to 74cc's
Cometic head gaskets, .027" compressed.
That all stacks up to 10.6:1 static compression with .027" quench.
Valve train;
Hughes Engines 1.6:1 roller rockers on slotted shafts
Comp Cams 26918 beehive springs with steel retainers. Installed pressures will be 160/seat 380/open, whichever is lesser.
<edit> (ended up with Ferrea Beehive springs because the Comps were not strong enough)
Schubeck-style composite base solid lifters (these require the high spring pressure)
Smith Bros. pushrods
The stick is a custom grind by Jim Dowell at Racer Brown. RB has been the subject of much debate through many forums, but after talking to a LOT of people and to Jim himself I ordered from him. He's a personality to be sure, but he knows what he's talking about. Specs;
.572" lift
238* duration @.050"
110* LSA
107* Intake CL
This cam takes advantage of the large Mopar lifter diameter and the composite base lifters, with aggressive ramps and a big lift for the duration.
I tossed camshafts around for months, took recommendations and finally decided that if I don't like a cam, it only costs a little to change it later.
Exhaust was another thought torture, I decided to stick with the 2" Hooker Super Competition (2x36x3.5) because I had them ceramic coated, I already own them, and I was very happy with the drivability on a 11:1 .509 cammed 440. Plus I'm a cheapskate and TTI's are not free. I can change later, again. I'll back up the headers with a 3" X-pipe into mufflers and 2.5" outlets. I have to do some custom work to accommodate the Gear Vendors and the X-pipe. I may have to give in to an H-pipe.
I did get spendy on an Ishihara-Johnson crank scraper/windage tray. These are worth a lot more than most people know.
Under that is a Mancini 6-quart Hemi pan and 1/2" pickup.
I tried to work an electric water pump into the equation but can't get around the reliability/availability of a standard pump.
Topping it off will be a Weiand S/S ram manifold, massaged by Hughes Engines with port EFI and electronic engine management by Electromotive. Jenvey supplied the pair of 70mm throttle bodies. I'll post up pics of the pieces as we go.
<edit> Linky to car resto thread; http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,66411.msg744819.html#msg744819 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,66411.msg744819.html#msg744819)
To be continued.
Sounds like a nice combo! I had to lose my X pipe and go to a H pipe when I got the Gear Vendors unit. Bob
Really looking forward to this build. :cheers: Good Luck. :2thumbs:
Per
Here's a couple shots of the manifold with injector ports installed. I'll have to use Pico injectors due to the restricted headspace. The injectors are aimed right along the path of highest port charge density and velocity.
I'd like to find another plenum top to modify, but I may just cut the middle out of this 6-pack top and build a new plenum on that. The top arrangement can't be determined until I get the hood on and measure underhood clearance.
Here are the Jenvey 70mm throttle bodies. Most Americans have never heard of Jenvey-they're English and found mostly on smaller engines. Drivability is key, and with huge throttle bodies the tip-in is usually horrible. Jenvey uses a progressive lever-linkage to provide a high travel-to-plate ratio off idle, which lowers exponentially approaching full throttle so low-speed control should be very good.
I can mount these on 65mm centers if necessary. I haven't determined the final configuration.
I have to do some homework on plenum volume then discover my packaging constraints and pipe in an intake/air filter system.
Schubeck lifters. These are an older set of Schubecks, I talked with Don Gould at www.4secondsflat.com (http://www.4secondsflat.com) and we're confident that these are the high-quality stuff, not the infamous later ones. I found these on Craigslist for $400. They're like jewelry, too bad you can't see them when they're working.
These are supposed to be magic, allowing near roller-cam ramps and no worries about ZDDP and oil additives, etc. Of course I'll continue to run Royal Purple racing non-SAE rated 10w40.
We'll see if they last as long as the Pyramids.
Very cool....lots of one-off parts and some neat fabrication. :2thumbs:
That wiend high ram is an excellent intake manifold....should work awesome on a 500 incher. I suppose this means you'll be looking at hood scoops huh Eric ?
The only thing that concerns me is the .027 quench.....that's pretty tight for a street build. ;)
Ron
No hood scoops for me...although I have no idea how much room there is. Since this manifold is supposed to put the stock 6-pack carbs in the stock location (I don't know that to be true, either) I figure a side- or front-entry plenum should be easy enough to organize; the only problem being plenum volume and distance from the throttles to the valves. I have to wrap it all up without creating any restrictions on the way to the heads. From the floor to gasket surface, the manifold is about 8-1/2" tall, IIRC about the same as my M1 so I should have room to build a plenum that works ok.
I still have the option of spacing the K-frame down, too if it's too close. I'd like to have had these parts to size up before the engine was out, but this has been evolving while I was overseas and couldn't get hands-on.
If I can't get away without a scoop, I'll set the throttles directly over the ports, downdraft. That would be the easiest to assemble and filter, but I don't care for scoops on Chargers.
Quench...well, since the motor should be all in by 6000 I don't expect to stretch and bend enough to worry about. I usually set H-D motors at .032" quench, with as much as 4-3/4" stroke and those cranks will give up .010" in flex by 6000. Never hurt one so far, and they really like it tight-they run noticeably cooler in traffic with a tighter setup when they have reasonable cams and stout compression. I think it keeps the pressure out of the ring area and eliminates that much more potential detonation. Maybe it doesn't matter in a water cooler anyway, but we have to choose sides somewhere, right?
What's your thoughts on the Q distance?
Nothing ever goes as planned...two steps back and one forward.
My valve springs are too weak. Anybody need a set of Comp Cams beehives, 125# on the seat at 1.885"?
My high-tech unnecessary cam button has issues...the bearing doesn't clear the bolt heads and the whole thing doesn't fit under the timing cover. What to do? Here's my solution.
Pics;
1. Timing cover to block gap.
2. Tools required; Sockets and arbor press.
3. Squeeze it just right.
4. Look for contact...had to squeeze a little more, and will still have to put the bolts in the valve grinder to reduce radius and touch off the top corners.
5. Viola!
more
Eric,
Header bolts with a 3/8 hex head work fine and will clear the thrust button, no problem. ;) Just wondering why all the trouble for a flat tappet cam where end play is a non issue ? The cam won't walk forward once the valvetrain is loaded :yesnod:
Nice job on the mods to make it all fit :2thumbs:
Ron
Sweet engine build - looking forward to what kind of power it makes.
Also - now make sure your water pump doesn't interfere with your timing cover modification.
I have a very similar setup with regards to the block and heads. I think my Ross pistons have 14cc valve reliefs and I'm using felpro perma torque head gasket. My compression is a calculated 10.8:1 I do have do mess with my fuel to get a ping free 36° total advance.
Quote from: firefighter3931 on October 20, 2010, 09:04:19 AM
Eric,
Header bolts with a 3/8 hex head work fine and will clear the thrust button, no problem. ;) Just wondering why all the trouble for a flat tappet cam where end play is a non issue ? The cam won't walk forward once the valvetrain is loaded :yesnod:
Nice job on the mods to make it all fit :2thumbs:
Ron
Why? Because it's there, lol. Sometimes I overthink things, and it wasn't very expensive. Perhaps that's because it doesn't fit!
I suppose they'd blame the cam manufacturer for drilling the holes too close together.
Being a class A justificator, I can tell myself that if I move up to a roller cam the button will already be there. :2thumbs:
Header bolts...I should have thought of that. I'm sure we have some around. Thanks for that. Red loctite?
Any Black Pig updates?
Quote from: Long Island RT on October 20, 2010, 09:06:27 AM
Sweet engine build - looking forward to what kind of power it makes.
Also - now make sure your water pump doesn't interfere with your timing cover modification.
I have a very similar setup with regards to the block and heads. I think my Ross pistons have 14cc valve reliefs and I'm using felpro perma torque head gasket. My compression is a calculated 10.8:1 I do have do mess with my fuel to get a ping free 36° total advance.
My calculated static compression is 10.6:1, and I'm going back into the combustion chambers to remove the small eyebrow at the intake valve exit area. The .050"-.100" lift flow is very important, and the little shelf is about .070 tall by the look of it. A careful swipe with a round cutter and a sacrificial intake valve to protect the seats should do it, and lose no more than 1/2cc.
Ping-free advance with 93 octane is precisely why I'm crushing the quench distance. My cam has only 238* duration @ .050" which will build a lot of low-RPM cylinder pressure.
I wish I had an engine dyno available, but the nearest one is 2-3 hours away so I'm limited to a chassis dyno. I'm only about 45 minutes away from Moroso drag strip, so time slips will be the ultimate measure of how well this combination works.
Quote from: elacruze on October 20, 2010, 11:07:39 AM
Header bolts...I should have thought of that. I'm sure we have some around. Thanks for that. Red loctite?
Any Black Pig updates?
Yep, red loctite is what i've used :2thumbs:
Black Pig will hopefully going out for another T&T day...weather permitting. :coolgleamA:
I have trans issues....line pressure is down at lower engine speeds (checked it with a guage driving) so the trans needs to come out this fall/winter. Not looking forward to that ! At 2500 it's fine so i'll just bring it up on the brakes and launch. The pump appears to have too much clearance. Valvebody was pulled and checked out fine.
Went over the engine and mechanicly it's perfect....compression and valvetrain are right where they're supposed to be. No signs of detonation...the plugs are light brown with the straps showing 1/2 way up so the heat range is fine. Going to check the fuel system over closely and make sure all's well. Last time out i ran low on fuel so it was starving on the top end. These big strokers eat a LOT of GAS....much more than the old 446. :lol:
Gonna top off the tank just to make sure....the extra ballast certainly won't hurt the short times with this traction challenged beast. Those 720 ftlbs are hard to get planted on a 10in tire. :P
Ron
good stuff !!
clever idea on the timing cover :yesnod: :2thumbs:
"The only thing that concerns me is the .027 quench.....that's pretty tight for a street build."
I've seen them hit at 0.030 on a SBC.
Check to make sure that your water pump doesn't hit your timing cover depression. You should be okay, I think there is about 1/4 inch.
Quote from: BSB67 on October 20, 2010, 09:48:28 PM
"The only thing that concerns me is the .027 quench.....that's pretty tight for a street build."
I've seen them hit at 0.030 on a SBC.
Check to make sure that your water pump doesn't hit your timing cover depression. You should be okay, I think there is about 1/4 inch.
Yup, I'm taking a bit of a chance. But, it does have Eagle rods and I don't expect the engine ever to see the high side of 6200 RPM. I will scope the bores after a couple hundred easy miles, and if there's evidence of contact I'll have to get some thicker gaskets.
I know that .027" isn't the tightest ever seen, either.
Water pump clearance, yeah. I ogled the recent thread showing the ARP bolts tearing out the cover. Worst case is I toss the button or relieve the WP housing.
So why wait with going with a slightly thicker gasket? How much would say a .010 thicker gasket effect your CR? It sounds like cheap insurance, but my balls dried up years ago when I got married AGAIN.
Quote from: greenpigs on October 20, 2010, 10:14:29 PM
So why wait with going with a slightly thicker gasket? How much would say a .010 thicker gasket effect your CR? It sounds like cheap insurance, but my balls dried up years ago when I got married AGAIN.
It's not about compression, it's about detonation.
Quick and dirty explanation; a flame can propagate through a stoichiometric mixture of gas & air until an orifice is smaller than about .040". So, I've always figured that with the additional heat and turbulence of a combustion chamber a quench distance of less than .040" is necessary to defeat detonation entirely. I don't have a laboratory to scientifically verify how much quench distance exists during actual operation, so I can only take a WAG. I know that some engines actually increase quench distance with RPM due to crank flex, and I haven't seen any information around the web showing pictures of piston-to-head contact at a given quench distance for RB Mopars.
I have, however, banged a few pistons into heads on other motors and I know that the actual damage is pretty minimal even in the worst circumstances. Rubbing the carbon off the shelf once in a blue moon for a moment won't hurt anything.
FINALLY got the valve train assembled...
Worst was having to wait for the machine shop to shorten the rockershaft clamps. I bought them through Hughes, they look like Indy (Hughes works pretty close with them) and fit like it too. I got about a 3" stack of rocker arm shims when what I needed was shorter spacers. A couple I flat filed .005"-.010", but the long ones needed .025"-.035" off both ends, and the holes weren't centered in any of the clamps. Disappointed, but in the end they fit the shaft well and do the job.
This jewelry cost a bunch, I sure hope it lasts like the pyramids. Ferrea beehive springs, Schubeck lifters, Smith Bros. pushrods, Hughes 1.6 Rockers, grooved shafts, and billet clamps.
Special :2thumbs: to Smith brothers for pointing out that with the stock Eddy Performer RPM heads I'd have clearance issues with pushrod holes, so went with .080" wall 5/16". (I think, I'll check the card again tomorrow)
Ishihara-Johnson crank scraper. They didn't have a pattern for the 4.250" stroke so they winged it and I had some cutting to do, but all in about 2 hours of careful fitting. Awesome.
One step closer. Tomorrow I'll get the accessories lined up then detail all the brackets and spacers, hopefully set it all on the K member.
Oh and happy day-discovered that either the kids messed with my camera settings, or I pocket-dialed all my settings messed up. Back to real colors.
<edit>
I just realized I didn't explain this intake in this thread. This is the first edition EFI, a Holley dual-quad TBI setup on an Edelbrock dual plane manifold. Should be awesome drivability and efficiency with very good power.
I hate to sound like a moron, but willing to learn, I'm asking anyway : What's the scraper on the crank for. Sure I understand what it might be for, but what should the benefit be of scraping the oil from the crank counters?
Quote from: six-tee-nine on December 18, 2010, 01:39:14 PM
I hate to sound like a moron, but willing to learn, I'm asking anyway : What's the scraper on the crank for. Sure I understand what it might be for, but what should the benefit be of scraping the oil from the crank counters?
Two things mostly;
1. Moving oil uses energy. A scraper gets it off the moving parts and back in the pan where it belongs instead of whipping around up there. The power then goes out the crank to the wheels instead of making heat in the oil, the energy which then leaves the engine through the cooling system. Less heat=more power.
2. Foaming. Oil that splashes up into the crank/rods gets whipped, and 'foams' or aerates. Even microscopic air bubbles in the oil reduces lubrication and cooling capacity of the oil. Again, the scraper puts it where it belongs and prevents the crank from knocking the oil around.
After those main points;
The oil will be in better condition towards the end of the change cycle, or you can go longer between changes.
The lubricated parts will last longer due to the reduced aeration and heat.
Front and rear seal leaks are less likely because the oil can't get to them as easily.
More oil in the pan reduces the possibility of uncovering the pickup at extreme braking or cornering. (or acceleration)
I had a friend long ago who ran a dyno in a durability testing lab. He told me that one dyno was used to discover the value of scrapers and windage trays. On a V8, they build a glass oil pan and used a strobe light to watch the crank. With no device to strip oil, they found that the vortex of the crankshaft held as much as 7 quarts at 8000 RPM. He said it looked like the taffy pulling machine at the fair and sucked the source dry. Our engines won't see anything like 8000 RPM, but the effect is there at all speeds to some extent. Think of the crank as a tornado generator. Ever seen the videos where a pickup truck or cow does two laps of a tornado before being spit out?
I finally got the engine off the stand and onto the K-member. I doofed the clutch, ordered an 11" clutch on my 10.5" flywheel...so no install but I did get the bellhousing centered. We had to play WWE Smackdown on the stock alignment dowel-the best part of 2 hours to get it out. We were pretty close to backdrilling the block and punching it out but it finally gave in.
Win of the day; Bell center with stock pins was .042" off center. I hit it perfectly on the first try, max diff is .007" so I'm within .004" of crank center. Yay. Yes, Margaret, I cleaned the pin holes and used plenty of Anti-Seize. New Piccys-
Since I have the original R/T 440 that came out of the car at hand, I installed the carb/air cleaner on it to measure hood clearance. This M1/850DP Holley/Moroso drop base was *very* close to the hood, but never left a mark on the bottom...too close for underhood insulation for sure. I measured from the valley pan hold down to the top of the wingnut-best I can check it's 10-3/4". We have a set of 6pack carbs in, so I sat them on my Weiand manifold and measured...lots of room! I couldn't run it with carbs and air cleaners without a scoop, but there's plenty of room for a custom plenum and throttle bodies without modifying the manifold body.
Geez it's nice to see somebody doing it RIGHT for a change !
GREAT JOB ! :2thumbs:
Naturally there has to be some self-flagellation before things get buttoned up. After a lot of careful fitting to the scraper, I looked through the windage tray and there was about 1/2" of clearance to the crank weights. Unfortunately, I didn't turn the motor...so I go to adjust the valves and hear a slight scraping noise...not much, but dangit I can't let that go. Turns out the rod nuts were just touching the screen on the windage tray. Nothing an hour of hoisting, standing, RTV scraping and spacer-washer removing can't fix. Good to go now, back on the K and hopefully in the car tomorrow!
It's in!
Wondering why Gear Vendors doesn't have two sets of tranny mount holes. I need either a spool mount or an offset crossmember.
I had a new alternator bracket made to bring it closer to the block, to get better belt wrap on the A/C compressor.
Hemi pan and Firefighter torque strap. :2thumbs:
I see you shot some bolts in the motor mounts..per Ron, but do you also use an actual torque strap?
Lots of silver.
Quote from: greenpigs on January 27, 2011, 11:46:03 PM
I see you shot some bolts in the motor mounts..per Ron, but do you also use an actual torque strap?
Lots of silver.
No, the bolts *are* the Firefighter torque strap. ;)
And personally I'd have chosen different valve covers, black MP probably. But, everybody else seems to love these so I'm acquiescing to popular fashion.
looking great your putting alot of time and thought into this build. what kind of HP and TQ numbers are you looking at with the 505 build? i'll be doing a 505 when the time comes i got alot to do before i get to that part. got any pics of the whole car? :2thumbs:
looks awesome!! :cheers:
Quote from: oldschool on January 28, 2011, 05:36:20 PM
looks awesome!! :cheers:
I agree, what headers are those, TTI, Dougs, Hooker, or ?
Looking good Eric :2thumbs:
Those 30 yr old hookers cleaned up nicely :coolgleamA:
I see you went with the Edelbrock 6-pack manifold as opposed to the Wiend piece....hood clearance issues ?
Ron
Quote from: charger2fast4u on January 28, 2011, 02:47:03 PM
looking great your putting alot of time and thought into this build. what kind of HP and TQ numbers are you looking at with the 505 build? i'll be doing a 505 when the time comes i got alot to do before i get to that part. got any pics of the whole car? :2thumbs:
Waaail...dunno about the numbers. I expect torque numbers about as good as anybody's, but the HP is a real guess. The heads are "nearly" stock Eddy RPMs. The cam is a Racer Brown custom, .572" lift with 238* duration. The manifold has been stage 1 ported by Hughes. I really can't even guess, but I gave up the HP chase for drivability and durability. I can change the heads and cam easy enough later after all the summer touring. I expect this motor to purr like a kitten, drive like an electric motor and be a lot faster than it sounds. :coolgleamA:
Maybe we could start a pool.
Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 28, 2011, 06:43:25 PM
Looking good Eric :2thumbs:
Those 30 yr old hookers cleaned up nicely :coolgleamA:
I see you went with the Edelbrock 6-pack manifold as opposed to the Wiend piece....hood clearance issues ?
Ron
That's actually the Eddy dual quad dual plane, which will start with a Holley Commander 950 TBI with driver box for #2 TBI. I expect exemplary drivability and torque.
I did measure the Weiand, and there will be no problem getting it under the hood, but...baby steps. Besides, I'll probably have another $2000 in hardware before it's ready to go and I'd rather spend the dough on driving the car as soon as possible so it's well proven by the Power Tour.
I just got my #1 spark plug in the mail...shorty short short. I'll test fit and take pictures tomorrow.
I'll be needin' a set of Firecores for this dude shortly too.
Have you seen the ceramic plug boots from Accel? I'm hoping they crop up as individually available somewhere.
Wow, that EFI stuff is expensive ! :icon_smile_big:
Surprised to hear the Wiend will clear the stock hood....guess a throttle body is much shorter than a carb ? :scope:
Firecore has a heat shield for the 90* boots that works fine with supercomps. If you want a mix of boot ends you just have to let me know what leads you need them on and we'll fit them to your specs. :2thumbs:
Here's a pic of the 90* shield
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 28, 2011, 08:43:45 PM
Wow, that EFI stuff is expensive ! :icon_smile_big:
Surprised to hear the Wiend will clear the stock hood....guess a throttle body is much shorter than a carb ? :scope:
Firecore has a heat shield for the 90* boots that works fine with supercomps. If you want a mix of boot ends you just have to let me know what leads you need them on and we'll fit them to your specs. :2thumbs:
Here's a pic of the 90* shield
Ron
In the photos above, you can sorta see that the carb base of the M1 is about 7-1/2" from base, and the bottom section of the Weiand (not the carb base at the top) is only about 6-1/2". I'll have ~5" to work with, and the throttle bodies will most likely come out the driver side. I still have to figure some way to plumb an air cleaner too...I'll likely use the old 440 as a test bed on a run stand to get the running details worked out, and get some learning curve on the Electromotive box. I'll have to go to coil-per-plug as well, and find a way to package the coils that isn't too cumbersome or ugly.
I think the shorty plug and heat shield will work nicely on #1. I don't think any of the other cylinders are a problem, but I'll have to verify all of them with the plugs in.
My #1 cylinder has no plug clearance with the Eddy RPM angled plugs and 2" Hooker Super Comp headers. So I went searching for short plugs with 14mm threads and 3/4" reach, and found the NipponDenso IWM series. They're .400" shorter than standard plugs, and a little shorter than Accel shorties (I didn't have one to measure how much) Not cheap at about $12 each.
Here are photos of both plugs installed with an old (burnt) boot, from two angles trying to show the difference. First two Champion, Second two ND.
Nice detective work on the plug :2thumbs:
A 90* boot with the matching heat shield will work fine ! :icon_smile_big:
How are the other cylinders Eric ?
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 29, 2011, 10:46:09 PM
Nice detective work on the plug :2thumbs:
A 90* boot with the matching heat shield will work fine ! :icon_smile_big:
How are the other cylinders Eric ?
Ron
#1 is the only problem spot.
1-3
5-7
2-4
6-8
I get confused.
Here's a look at the accessory configuration, from the resto thread. I'm going to confine engine build posts to engine function and upgrades only-should have the EFI mounted by next weekend.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=66411.0;attach=144694;image)
good research and detailed pics of the plugs this may come in handy down the line. i wonder how well the NipponDenso short spark plugs will hold up and last :scratchchin: compaired to NGK's and others with fouling issues?
WOW!!!! Love this thread and all your research and work. Also the detail that you are putting into this thread.
The spark plug issue has been one for many of us and I for one am itching to see how the plugs work out. The pics show a nice amount of room, but the working end of the plug still needs to prove itself.
Something I am very interested in is the low set A/C pump. I was working on a set up close to this, only using a standard type water pump and running it backwards using a serpentine set of pulleys for more rubber/pulley grip. It looks like you will have about 1/4 of the pulley being grabbed by the belt. I considered this utilizing a 2-V system thinking it would be twice the grab, but I also figured on much more frictional drag. Are you planning to use 2 belts or do you think this will be enough to turn your compressor without slippage?
Steve,
I never liked the idea of running a single belt on the alternator, let alone a single belt alt from a single belt compressor. So I took a member's setup (sorry I don't remember who's that is at the moment) and applied it to my own, to get two belts around everything but the P/S pump. I have the option of running the 'stock' Bouchillon setup, one belt to the compressor and one to the alternator, or two around the compressor and one to the alternator. I looked hard at the Jeep conversion serpentine, but I don't like the idea of reversing the rotation on the WP. I'm going to try to find a reverse rotation marine engine to see if they have reverse rotation housings. The last option is to move the compressor to the high position.
Two steps forward, one back.
It has been a while since I was messing with it, but I have tried changing the swing position of the alt and raised the height of it giving more belt friction area. Also tried moving the AC pump out an inch or two to make room for a tensioner between the crank and AC pump w/serp. belt, but I am afraid it would then hit the frame of the car.
The best option for all to work very well would be a reverse running water pump and a serp. system in my humble opinion. I did check with a marine parts joint here in Tampa Bay on the water pump itself and they sell the same pump for clockwise and counterclockwise running motors. Somehow I don't remember if I asked about the housings. But then my memory has been playing massive games with me lately. :shruggy:
Discovery of the obvious:
I can't use the dual belt setup, because the crank and water pump pulleys both have one deep groove, so their diameter is different in each belt track. I'll have to run the belt-to-compressor/belt-to-alternator setup for now.
How's the build coming along? Getting close to starting it up? Haven't had any recent updates I'm interestedin how 93 pump gas will be with your cam and engine setup I think I'll be fighting with my build on 93 getting it to run without pinging. Hope that engine harness does you good
The engine is done and in some time ago, the only things left are to wrap the ECU harness, power it up, verify the functions on computer and hit the key. That could be as early as Sunday. (May 8 )
Qapla (success)
Installed the FireCore 50 plug wires today, with heat boots. Man, are these things nice. The heat caps fit tight and smooth, and are very high quality.
Here's the follow-up to the spark plug/header clearance issue.
And crap, how dumb did Edelbrock have to be to counterbore the spark plug holes too small to get a socket around a 13/16" spark plug?
Does Firecore make the heat cover?
They sure to FL :2thumbs:
Looking good, ive been trolling this thread for awhile :2thumbs:
Quote from: flyinlow on May 15, 2011, 09:01:48 PM
Does Firecore make the heat cover?
Yep, got them with the wires from Firefighter Ron.
Quote from: elacruze on May 16, 2011, 06:52:46 AM
Quote from: flyinlow on May 15, 2011, 09:01:48 PM
Does Firecore make the heat cover?
Yep, got them with the wires from Firefighter Ron.
Thanks
You mentioned 13/16 plugs on Eddy heads? Mine use 5/8 NGK BCPR6ES a little smaller.
Quote from: flyinlow on May 16, 2011, 07:09:40 PM
Quote from: elacruze on May 16, 2011, 06:52:46 AM
Quote from: flyinlow on May 15, 2011, 09:01:48 PM
Does Firecore make the heat cover?
Yep, got them with the wires from Firefighter Ron.
Thanks
You mentioned 13/16 plugs on Eddy heads? Mine use 5/8 NGK BCPR6ES a little smaller.
Right, but I have plugs with a 13/16" hex, and I think it's dumb to make heads that restrict me to 5/8" hex when there is plenty of room for a bigger counterbore. I got them tight with a short open end wrench, but it was a real headache. I'll have to find 5/8 plugs next time, or pull the heads and have them bored.
How about a thin wall socket? :shruggy:
Quote from: FLG on May 16, 2011, 07:20:38 PM
How about a thin wall socket? :shruggy:
Nope, the counterbore hole is a plug fit to the hex points on a 13/16 plug. It's clear in the photos upthread, but I never tried to put a socket on them while the heads were out.
Quote from: elacruze on May 15, 2011, 06:47:08 PM
Installed the FireCore 50 plug wires today, with heat boots. Man, are these things nice. The heat caps fit tight and smooth, and are very high quality.
Here's the follow-up to the spark plug/header clearance issue.
And crap, how dumb did Edelbrock have to be to counterbore the spark plug holes too small to get a socket around a 13/16" spark plug?
The 90* boots and shields look great Eric....and they work just as good as they look ! :icon_smile_big:
I'm sure you won't have any issues in the future with burnt boots. :2thumbs:
Nice progress....won't be long now ! :icon_smile_cool:
Ron
Sorry to post a teaser, but I have to buy a digital video cable for my camcorder to get the video out.
Installed radiator, fluid check, final pre-flight inspection, double-checked distributor and hit the key.
I was caught totally off guard when the thing lit off on about the third cylinder, and stayed lit-not at all like the 6-tries-and-a-screwdriver approach I'm accustomed to with carburetors. Aside from a leak at the temp gauge sensor thread, everything was great. The initial fuel map was way too rich, so a few minutes of keyboarding and Viola! running smooth, restarting instantly. I must have an air leak someplace, the idle won't come below 1500 on the screws.
This engine sounds NASTY!
Initial timing will probably end up 5*-10*, by the sound of the hot start at 15*. Thermostat temp (185) was reached in about 5 minutes, no threat of being too warm. Throttle response is instantaneous, just scary quick; this thing snaps up faster with the heavy flywheel than my 11:1 440 did with the aluminum wheel.
Today I'll see about getting the exhaust installed (open headers are always more fun on startup) and do more fine tuning on the timing and idle air.
As soon as I get cabled, I'll post a video.
The video is about 7 minutes long, and 1.5gb. I'll try to compress it, and get better footage as we go along.
This was actually the second fire-up, after tightening the coolant temperature sensor. RPM is about 1700, though it sounds like a lot less due to the over-rich mixture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtabo9umJfo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtabo9umJfo)
:cheers: sounds good!!!! what is the laptop hooked up to? :cheers:
Quote from: Roger 68 charger on May 21, 2011, 07:04:50 AM
:cheers: sounds good!!!! what is the laptop hooked up to? :cheers:
Laptop is connected to Holley 950 Commander via USB/Serial cable.
Sounds nasty!!!
Congrats on the fire-up. Very cool! :cheers:
That does sound good! :cheers:
That does sound nice! Can see that it is rich be the way the driver is holding a rag over her face. :rofl:
Its a TBI correct? You say the injectors have to be swapped out, those are in the throttle body? How big of a chore is that?
Nice Eric, very nice. All your hard work has paid off in spades. :2thumbs:
Quote from: GPULLER on May 23, 2011, 10:17:54 AM
That does sound nice! Can see that it is rich be the way the driver is holding a rag over her face. :rofl:
Its a TBI correct? You say the injectors have to be swapped out, those are in the throttle body? How big of a chore is that?
Each throttle body has 4 injectors. They are pretty easy to replace, they just fit down in the pods with an O-ring on each end. There is a retaining plate that captures all 4 injectors in place. The tricky part (and last learned, of course) is that you have to put the lower O-rings into the pod grooves and lube the injector tips-otherwise they will not seat and you'll have massive leaks. Care and patience is the order of the day, and you can't put them in one at a time or disconnect the harnesses from them either. Just not enough space and slack.
I spent some time on the phone with Holley, fortunately they obsoleted the tiny injectors from their system so they were willing to share cross-reference information. I have 4 45# injectors and 4 75# injectors, and didn't know any of that before. I ordered 4 more 45# injectors ($40 each, fit '92-'94 Saturn 1.9l motors) so I should have them in tomorrow. I have to sort out some electronic noise in the ground and idle air control, I don't have a clean RPM signal to the ECU. More later.
Got the ECU back from Holley today, first fire up with exhaust. Just a little clacky...check adjusters...2 nuts off and one more loose.
I guess it's a right of passage to have the adjusters loosen. I thought I must have forgot to final torque one, then found the 2 on the other side. Re-torqued all of them and only found one more that moved any...have to keep an eye on this and re-check often for the next week.
Taking a time out for the Power Tour...engine is all OK so far except the timing curve of the MP distributor is too quick, rattles some around 2500rpm while accelerating. Still tuning like mad, got the idle OK with and without the A/C, got the coolant temperature stabilized at idle, around 200*F, cold start is manageable, hot start is not too bad but at odds with the 15* base timing the engine wants to prevent temperature creep at idle. I have to look into the distributor and see if the vacuum advance is adjustable, or the weight springs-been way too long to remember.
Longest shakedown cruise in history starts tomorrow; Hagerty insurance has me covered for 125 miles of free towing...put your money where your mouth is, boy.
OK, wow.
Power Tour is over, made it without any pit stops...
My Chrome ignition module coughed up it's internal ground between Valdosta and Montgomery, preventing any on-the-road tuning; we had to record events up until the software locked up and tune in the parking lot every morning. The faulty ground caused an erratic RPM signal which overloaded the software. Since it didn't quit altogether, I never took the time to replace the module with my spare, though looking back I should have...
I installed the spare orange box and it lasted about 3.5 minutes before dying a sudden and complete death. Oh well, it was 25 years old...
Since we were in the area I stopped in at Mancini's and picked up two orange boxes. Install immediately resulted in fast starts, smooth idle and steady tach needle. Driving became much more a pleasure, obviously the spark was scattering or dropping out more often than I could hear. Less knock too.
Anyway, the engine is exactly what I asked for-perfectly drivable, good vacuum at idle, and I expect that when we get the timing and fuel dialed perfectly it will idle comfortably at 850-900 RPM with the A/C on. I haven't seen higher coolant temp than 190* since the weather went below 95*, and don't expect heat trouble again.
The motor wasn't broken in when I bought it, and didn't loosen up noticeably until Indianapolis-about 800 miles from home. Good grief. I didn't even add ZDDP, just Royal Purple street synthetic 10w40. I changed the oil up here in Michigan to Royal Purple 20w50 motorcycle oil, since it still has the ZDDP in it. No sign of shinies in the oil or filter.
Adjusted the valves, which I could hear loosening up; I started with .008" on the intakes and .010" on the exhausts. Most were .011"-.015", with the #7 exhaust out at about .018". I put everything back at 8-10 and it's smooth and very quiet for a solid lifter motor.
I had some trouble with the throttle linkage due to time constraints, and it's only opening 2/3-3/4 of the way; even so, it's a torque monster of course...doesn't feel like it's going to make 600hp but it sure drives nice and will shred the tires in 2nd gear, even throwing a black cloud out the back since we haven't been able to dial the fuel at all above 1/2 throttle or about 3500 rpm.
More later.
Hey Eric,
All in all its sound like all your hard work and attention to detail has paid off in spades! Congrats man. :2thumbs:
"Up here in Michigan"......As in ??
Im in Traverse City....
Quote from: tufamc on June 16, 2011, 03:50:11 PM
"Up here in Michigan"......As in ??
Im in Traverse City....
We're down near DTW airport, but we will be getting as far north as Alma and Farwell...about 1/2 way up to you in Traverse.
Gotcha......Enjoy the tour!!
So finally got around to adjusting the valves...with one exception, they all loosened up .003"-.005". The motor is much quieter (again) and smoother, and more powerful to boot. I worked a bit on the throttle cable/bracket/lever and got it opening up 4/5ths or more...this thing can swallow some air! each TBI is 650 CFM, so full open is 1300 CFM...I figured I wouldn't see a lot of difference between 3/4 and WOT...boy was I wrong. I mashed it in second gear after the adjustments and everything that wasn't on the floor before went there fast!
I may make the Test and Tune at Milan Dragway this Friday or Saturday, for some MPH runs...won't be doing any hard holeshots this far from home, and the 255 Firestones wouldn't be much good for that anyway.
Pulled the plugs and the standard plugs are right about on the money for heat range, the shorty ND plug is too cold but not fouling. I'll order up one each of the other 3 ranges and swap them in until I find the right one.
A short update on the #1 shorty spark plug-
I didn't take a photo yet, but did have the plug out while having maintenance pulled in Michigan. The plug looks great, no signs of damage from heat, detonation, or fouling. It's a good heat range from all I can see, although at $14 a pop I may not put them in the other 7 holes.
$14 for just one plug, dang!
So you didn't run it any to see the MPH I guess?
Quote from: greenpigs on August 04, 2011, 10:58:40 PM
$14 for just one plug, dang!
So you didn't run it any to see the MPH I guess?
MPH=80 max
MPG=14.6 max observed. With better timing and gearing I'm still confident we can find 25 under the right conditions.
Back online.
Getting around to the stage II EFI again. Fuel rails/injectors test fit.
Quote from: elacruze on August 01, 2011, 12:47:02 PM
A short update on the #1 shorty spark plug-
I didn't take a photo yet, but did have the plug out while having maintenance pulled in Michigan. The plug looks great, no signs of damage from heat, detonation, or fouling. It's a good heat range from all I can see, although at $14 a pop I may not put them in the other 7 holes.
be glad you dont have a plane. the plugs in mine are $95.00 ea. x 12........ :icon_smile_blackeye:
Did you really fit bungs to an STR intake? :2thumbs:
Quote from: Rolling_Thunder on April 06, 2013, 11:03:51 PM
Did you really fit bungs to an STR intake? :2thumbs:
Yes, yes I did. I did I did I did, and I'm glad I found this a few years ago for $750 because the last one I saw asked $2500. :)
Now I have to build a custom plenum-I'll probably have to do something I'm not proud of with wood before having a custom top made. I'm pretty close to Wilson Manifolds, so if I find a spare $2-3k laying around I could have a first-rate beauty...
Quick question related to something far back in the thred:
Did you cut the flange on the header between 1 and 3? If so, is there an advantage to doing this?
Quote from: elacruze on April 06, 2013, 01:31:29 PM
Back online.
Getting around to the stage II EFI again. Fuel rails/injectors test fit.
Looking good!!! Here is my similar test fit of everything. Note the injector dummies and unwelded injector bungs.
Quote from: XH29N0G on April 07, 2013, 10:11:52 AM
Quick question related to something far back in the thred:
Did you cut the flange on the header between 1 and 3? If so, is there an advantage to doing this?
No. These are Hooker Super Comp headers from about 1982. Back then, they had to have 2-piece pipes to get around the torsion bars. There is a slip-fit in tube 1 down below.
Quote from: mhinders on April 08, 2013, 01:59:20 PM
Quote from: elacruze on April 06, 2013, 01:31:29 PM
Back online.
Getting around to the stage II EFI again. Fuel rails/injectors test fit.
Looking good!!! Here is my similar test fit of everything. Note the injector dummies and unwelded injector bungs.
Tell me about the coil pack, and how it's mounted...? Still something I haven't worked out.
I'd very much like to keep the distributor and plug wires but I haven't had an answer back yet from Electromotive about multiple signals to a single coil-it probably won't work due to saturation overlap.
Quote from: elacruze on April 10, 2013, 11:42:13 AM
Quote from: mhinders on April 08, 2013, 01:59:20 PM
Quote from: elacruze on April 06, 2013, 01:31:29 PM
Back online.
Getting around to the stage II EFI again. Fuel rails/injectors test fit.
Looking good!!! Here is my similar test fit of everything. Note the injector dummies and unwelded injector bungs.
Tell me about the coil pack, and how it's mounted...? Still something I haven't worked out.
I'd very much like to keep the distributor and plug wires but I haven't had an answer back yet from Electromotive about multiple signals to a single coil-it probably won't work due to saturation overlap.
It's the GM LS2 truck coils, D-585, supposed to give the fattest sparks out there. I will mount them to the intake/heads with homemade brackets, still to be fabricated, nothing complicated needed.
The drawback with one single coil is that with 8 cylinders there is very little time to charge the coil when you start revving, and the sparks get weaker (unless you have a sophisticated ignition system transforming the 12V into 400V which is then passed thru the coil...). But a single coil is still ok, it tends to get a lot more complicated with one coil per cylinder... :2thumbs:
Understood. The Electromotive box I have makes no allowance for single coils, so I expect saturation overlap; the charge time will be optimized for a single coil on 8 leads each rather than 1 coil lead with 8 impulses.
Quote from: elacruze on April 10, 2013, 03:09:51 PM
Understood. The Electromotive box I have makes no allowance for single coils, so I expect saturation overlap; the charge time will be optimized for a single coil on 8 leads each rather than 1 coil lead with 8 impulses.
Sorry Elacruze, I didn't understand what system you had in mind, but now I've read about it!
If it can deliver 150mJ to the spark, that's very good indeed.
I seem to remember that my LS2 coils are delivering 134mJ (but this is a real measured value), and that in itself is also very good.
Yeah, that Electromotive box looks good, should take care of feeding the spark plugs with fresh energy at all revs!
So, after a year or so of staring at this intake and wondering just what the plenum would look like if I made it myself out of plywood, or pottery, or fiberglass, or had the local welded-valve-cover yokel do it-so I did the smart thing and drove it down to http://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/ (http://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/).
They'll engineer it properly for volume, shape, flow, position and it will truly be jewelry! Of course, it will cost as much as a good watch but there's just no way I could cheap out on it without making it look like a piece of used drill casing.
Now I have to get onto the crank sensor. I'm taking the engine out soon to re-seal it; I'll have a look to see if I can have made a signal ring that fits onto the flywheel behind the ring gear, with the pickup in the bellhousing. More likely, it'll just go in the usual place around the crank pulley.
I had the same idea...got my ring style tooth wheel from a company in England.
http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/d5.html
:popcrn:
Back from Wilson Manifolds. Strange, I'm thinking, that the computer-calculated plenum volume turned out to be exactly the same size as the stock Weiand plenum base x hood clearance. :scratchchin:
I spoke with Spectre at the Power Tour vendor trailer, an unnamed source there can help me out with the 2-into-1 TB to A/C adapter for cold air entry. The rails now bolt directly to the manifold with welded posts, so no worry about shaking apart and losing o-rings or injector seal.
More views.
that is too cooool :2thumbs:
Quote from: elacruze on August 15, 2011, 08:20:58 AM
Quote from: greenpigs on August 04, 2011, 10:58:40 PM
$14 for just one plug, dang!
So you didn't run it any to see the MPH I guess?
MPH=80 max
MPG=14.6 max observed. With better timing and gearing I'm still confident we can find 25 under the right conditions.
Oh BTW, on this year's Power Tour, with a corrected distributor and 3.55:1 rear gear, we trip-averaged 15.8 mpg for 3100 miles and saw 2 tankfuls over 23mpg. I was so stunned by the first one I figured I had screwed up the numbers or fill-ups somehow until I got the second one. We had more than a few 17's and a couple 19's as well. :2thumbs:
Still, the mechanical distributor is the killer. Tip-in detonation forces me to run a richer mixture than I'll be able to squeeze out of the electronic ignition control.
Dang again!...that's about $625 in gas @ $3.19 a gallon for the cheap stuff.
Still, you can make more money and have the memories. :2thumbs:
Very nice! And I always admire beautiful welds! :2thumbs:
Where do you get gas for $3.19 per gallon.
Was that for about 2 days in Dayton Ohio.
Quote from: elacruze on July 01, 2013, 07:12:15 PM
More views.
Your aluminium welder is a tad better than mine... :icon_smile_big:
:popcrn:
Quote from: greenpigs on July 03, 2013, 05:40:02 AM
Was that for about 2 days in Dayton Ohio.
GP I wish I'd have known you're near Dayton, I drive past on I-75 a couple times a year (tho not this year in the Charger) Shoot me some contact info PM and I'll check in next time, probably this fall.
Eric, just wanted to say your induction system is very impressive.....that maniold/throttle body is a work of art ! :2thumbs:
Ron