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Mopar Garage => Engine, Transmission, Rearend, & Exhaust => Topic started by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 01:50:21 AM

Title: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 01:50:21 AM
As some of you know my Project Car aka the Black Pig was recently completed and i am in the tuning de-bugging stage. I was having some serious heat issues and tried a bunch of things to help cool it down. It has plenty of cooling capacity with a new dual pass aluminum rad so i was pretty sure that wasn't the issue.

The one thing that struck me as odd was the amount of radiant heat coming off the top of the engine....there was a ton of it. I've been around and tuned enough 440's to know that this wasn't normal. I started by replacing the 2000cfm pusher fan with a 3000cfm puller and that seemed to help somewhat but there was still lots of heat on the top end. I suspected the thermostat so i swapped in another one with basicly no change. I verified that both stats were functioning by testing them in boiling water and verified the open temps with my infrared heat gun...both worked fine.

Basicly, it would idle at 190* but out on the road the temps would spike and bounce between 180* and 210* almost instantaneously....like over a 5 second time frame. Normally when engine temps spike out on the road it's an airflow/obstruction issue with the radiator but this was different. I finally reasoned that there was an air/steam pocket in the cooling system and as that pocket moved around and the hot steam hit the water temp sensors it was creating the spiked temps. This made sense and explained why the guages were reading the way they were but didn't explain why the air pockets were forming despite repeated attempts to purge the cooling system. The fact that the top end of the engine was so hot was a clue and i figured that the coolant wasn't being circulated fast enough so it was boiling inside the engine creating the air pockets....but why was this happening ?  :scratchchin:

So, i'm on the phone discussing this problem with Dwayne @ Porter Racing heads and he's asking the usual questions :

(1) enough rad....yep, dual pass aluminum
(2) thermostat defective...nope, tried 2 of them and both open fully as they should
(3) tuning issues...nope, timing is perfect and jetting is good, if anything it's slightly rich...not lean
(4) vacuum leak....nope, checked that and vacuum is low but rock steady

So as the conversation progresses Dwayne asks me what water pump and housing is on the engine....same one we dynoed the engine with ?

Nope....I upgrade to a fancy aluminum 440Source housing and pump. Dwayne proceeds to groan and suggests that i inspect the housing very closely. Why...the housing looks great and it's new and what the heck could be the problem ? Apparently he had one of those housings in the shop for a customer's FAST 511 build and didn't like what he saw. Externally the housing looks fine but the engine supply ports (lower openings) are very restrictive. You're kidding right....how can this be ? Nope...they are poorly designed and you'll see it yourself once you pull the pump housing and stick your fingers down the hole.  :scope:

So, over the w/e i pulled the rad and all the front acessories off the engine to have a peek...sure enough the lower (supply) ports were very small. I compared this to the stock housing and it was like night and day ! On the stock housing i could easily get 2 or more fingers all the way into the hole but on the Source housing i could only get one finger in maybe an inch and it was jammed....WTH !!!  :icon_smile_angry:

Looking at the two housings and comparing them it was apparant that the factory housing is a much better design ; the water passage makes a gentle radiused curve into the block and has lots of volume. The Source housing has a sharp 90* bend and the water passage is pinched off to maybe 20-30% of the inlet opening. Geez...what a PISS POOR design this POS is. That can't be good for coolant circulation and explains why the coolant was boiling inside the block....it was staying in there too long and forming steam pockets.  :yesnod:

So, i re-installed the factory housing with my favorite Milodon water pump and fired it up. The engine ran for 20 minutes and hit 180* sitting there idleing in 108*F ambiant air temps....today was the hottest day of the summer by far....a real scorcher. I immediately noticed that the high radiant heat off the top end of the engine was gone...despite this being the hottest day i had ran the engine so far this year....the last time i ran it the air temp was 80*F. Looking at the coolant flow across the top of the rad i noticed immediately that there was a huge difference in flow....the coolant was circualting like it should be instead of just casually coasting by...which it had been with the 440 Source pump & housing. Encouraged by this i decided to take the car out for a drive to see how it would run....if it could run ok in 108* temps and not overheat...what more could you ask....that's about as bad as it can get ! So off i go for a cruise and it's running great....at speed the temp drops to 175* and holds that temp no problem. I try it in some slow moving traffic and the temp creeps up to 195*....not bad ! As soon as the car begins moving again.....the guage drops back to 175-180 and holds....Right On !!!!! :2thumbs:


So, based on these results and close inspection of the 440 Source waterpump housing it's safe to assume that there is a major design flaw. If anybody is running this piece and has noticed increased temps and overheating you now know where to look. I have to give Kudo's to Dwayne for pointing me in the right direction. I hadn't considered that there was a problem with the design of this part because it visually looks good and i just assumed that the internal dimensions would be identical if not superior to the stock housing.....this is absolutely not the case.  :P


Hopefully this helps those members who may be experiencing overheat issues and if you are running one of these Chinese knockoffs my advice is to replace it asap....or at least compare it to the stock housing to see what you've got.


Sorry for the long winded post but i wanted to give an accurate description of the troubleshooting process and how the problem was isolated and ultimately resolved.



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 69bronzeT5 on August 18, 2009, 01:58:12 AM
Thanks for taking the time to write this Ron. Good catch on the waterpump housing, both of you! Good read :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Rolling_Thunder on August 18, 2009, 02:15:27 AM
port and polish ?  I'm just curious if the issue could be resolved if you wanted to run that housing...      :shruggy:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 02:22:54 AM
Quote from: Rolling_Thunder on August 18, 2009, 02:15:27 AM
port and polish ?  I'm just curious if the issue could be resolved if you wanted to run that housing...      :shruggy:


Probably not Alex....the housing doesn't look thick enough to "hog out" in the restricted area.  :Twocents:

INMO, this housing has no business on a street engine.....maybe on a race car that makes a quick pass then cools down in the pits for 1/2 an hour or so.



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Belgium R/T -68 on August 18, 2009, 03:10:09 AM
Am I lucky I gave my 440source housing+pump away and used the Milodon setup I initially planned on using. :lol:

Per
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 18, 2009, 03:37:20 AM
I spoke with Ron at length about this tonight. I also have a 440 Source pump and housing. Only mine are still on the paint stand. As we were talking I went out to the shop and checked mine out. 440 Source against a stock iron housing. Holy cow.... Both bottom, or feed holes, are very small compared to the iron housing. The passenger side is tiny.  One finger tip. The same hole on the iron housing is 3-4 times the size of the source housing.  I will NOT be using this housing on my fresh motor.

I'm sure many of you reading this will have that heart in stomach feeling. I do and I haven't even used mine. I figure that this feeling now and doing something about it, is better than lunching a motor due to overheating. 

Now I really wonder how many of you guys I and others have helped chase down heating issues that have never been quite satisfied with end results are using the 440 Source housing?  I know VegasMike will be looking for a few iron housings.


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Side note:  If anyone has a 440 source housing and another brand aluminum housing I would love to hear from you. The test results would be greatly appreciated here.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: kcederwall08 on August 18, 2009, 03:54:09 AM
Hmmmmm, very interesting. Perhaps this is a reason for some of my overheating. I started a thread about my over heating a while ago, and I have the same pump and housing.

Are the water pumps them selves any good?

I think I might have to try to switch to my stock one to see if it makes a difference.  :scratchchin:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: tan top on August 18, 2009, 04:15:19 AM
good find  :yesnod: some intresting reading !! glad you sorted it Ron :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: runningman on August 18, 2009, 04:51:07 AM
I have a MP housing on mine but it is also on the stand still.  I will go and take a look at that tonight.

Matt
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: y3chargerrt on August 18, 2009, 06:29:59 AM
I'm sure this in another defective part that 440source won't take back or make right!
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Challenger340 on August 18, 2009, 08:03:13 AM
Excellent post RON  :2thumbs:
Who'd have thunk !
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 08:04:03 AM
Quote from: kcederwall08 on August 18, 2009, 03:54:09 AM
Hmmmmm, very interesting. Perhaps this is a reason for some of my overheating. I started a thread about my over heating a while ago, and I have the same pump and housing.

Are the water pumps them selves any good?

I think I might have to try to switch to my stock one to see if it makes a difference.  :scratchchin:


These housings are definately a problem....get that thing off there ASAP !!!!  :RantExplode:

As far as the waterpump itself...i'm not impressed with the impeller design. The Milodon pump uses blades like a stock pump but adds an anti-cavitation plate. I've used this pump on several engines and never had an issue.

Fire your engine up and pull the rad cap....once the thermostat opens..look at the coolant flow...if it's moving slowly you have a problem.

Here are some pics of a Milodon vs 440 source waterpump impeller. I know which one i prefer  ;)



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on August 18, 2009, 08:06:27 AM
Terrific, that means I have a beautifully cast aluminum paperweight sitting on the shelf.  At least I avoided the hassle of putting it on and having overheat issues. :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Just 6T9 CHGR on August 18, 2009, 08:09:20 AM
Damn Ron, another POS part from 440 Source.  Glad you got it sorted.  Sometimes "new" is not necessarily better :rotz:

Any chance you took some comparison shots of the housings?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 18, 2009, 08:16:51 AM
Great post Ron :2thumbs:

I have one still sitting in the box waiting to go on my new build... I guess it's going to be staying in the box now   :2thumbs:

Thanks again RON... and Dwayne :cheers:
This is definitely not the kind of thing that one would look for, or would ever suspect  :yesnod:

Good post!!!

Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 08:19:17 AM
Quote from: Ghoste on August 18, 2009, 08:06:27 AM
Terrific, that means I have a beautifully cast aluminum paperweight sitting on the shelf.  At least I avoided the hassle of putting it on and having overheat issues. :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall:


Shawn, i feel for ya, i'm in the same boat with a fancy paperweight to hang on the wall....but at least you didn't overheat your engine and warp the heads. How bad would that suck ?  :brickwall:

I imagine that a lot of 440 source housings/pumps will be showing up on e-bay very shortly  :lol:



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on August 18, 2009, 08:21:31 AM
I guess we better try and beat the rush huh? (jk)  :eek2:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 08:25:13 AM
Quote from: NOT Just 6T9 CHGR on August 18, 2009, 08:09:20 AM
Damn Ron, another POS part from 440 Source.  Glad you got it sorted.  Sometimes "new" is not necessarily better :rotz:

Any chance you took some comparison shots of the housings?


Chris, you can't really see the restriction in a pic unless you look at the backside of the housing and see the sharp bend on the lower passage. It's not something anyone would be looking for....i sure wasn't.  :icon_smile_blackeye:

It's quite obvious once you do the "finger test"  :D  and compare it to the stock housing.

Just when you think you've seen it all....something new comes along and bites ya in the AZZ  :lol:



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 08:31:23 AM
Quote from: Ghoste on August 18, 2009, 08:21:31 AM
I guess we better try and beat the rush huh?


In all good conscience i would have a hard time selling this thing as a legitimate fully functional part knowing what i know. If i decide to sell it the add will state "race only" and "not for street use".  :yesnod:

It wouldn't be right to sell this to a Mopar brother....too bad it won't bolt onto a Chevy !  :D  :lol:



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on August 18, 2009, 08:37:43 AM
Me too in all honesty.
LOL, I was thinking the very same thing about too bad it won't bolt on a Chevy. :lol:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 08:37:54 AM
Quote from: Musicman on August 18, 2009, 08:16:51 AM
Great post Ron :2thumbs:

I have one still sitting in the box waiting to go on my new build... I guess it's going to be staying in the box now   :2thumbs:

Thanks again RON... and Dwayne :cheers:
This is definitely not the kind of thing that one would look for, or would ever suspect  :yesnod:

Good post!!!




I was thinking of you Mike as i was typing out this post....i know you purchased a lot of 440 Source stuff. Better to find out now before you overheat a fresh engine. New engines run hot enough during the break-in phase...you don't need to handicap it anymore with a restrictive water circulation problem.

Another member....MFR426 (Mike R) is running the 440 Source pump/housing on his 505 and told me it runs a lot hotter than his old engine used to with the same rad/fan/shroud.  :eek2:



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Blown70 on August 18, 2009, 08:51:57 AM
Great read Ron.  Gland to hear the Black Pig is not a HOT Black pig  :2thumbs: 

Glad I am not the far yet.... Although me being MR. fancy may run a remote water pump and shove it through the heads first.... Although, I will chat with Dwayne first. on those purdy little heads that will be in my hands soon.... :D
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Blown68Coronet on August 18, 2009, 09:20:41 AM
Thanks for the heads up Ron, Mine's coming off the Coronet this week!! Maybe we could pool them up together and take them into the scrap yard in exchange for a case of good ol Keith's!!!!! :D :smilielol:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: gasoline_24 on August 18, 2009, 09:44:41 AM
Thanks for the the heads up Ron.  Just called Wayne and told him to leave it off.  Now I need to overnight some things to him so we don't delay the engine dyno on Saturday.  Dwayne never spoke highly of the 440 source stuff.  I wish I would have listened to him on all of it.  Better to find out now as opposed to after it was installed and painted.  Great timing Ron.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on August 18, 2009, 09:48:46 AM
So the official concensus is that the Milodon pump with the stock cast iron housing is the way to go?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: gasoline_24 on August 18, 2009, 10:42:27 AM
That sounds like what I am hearing.  Mancini carries the water pump and has then in stock.  They are sending mine today.  I think the only real difference between the aluminum and original is about 8-10 lbs., which for my stroker I doubt I will notice.  However, I would wait for Ron to chime in as he is the man.   :icon_smile_big:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mfr426 on August 18, 2009, 11:21:16 AM
Yeah Ron, I'm running that pump combo that I got from 440Source and EVEN installed a trans cooler to try to help cool my 505 stroker. The temp did not waiver even after I put the cooler in. I've never had an engine run this hot all time. Looking at that photo says it all. I guess I'll be ripping the front end of the engine off again.

This is such a good post and find Ron. Thanks for taking the time to share the findings.  :2thumbs:

Mike R
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 11:30:10 AM
Quote from: Ghoste on August 18, 2009, 09:48:46 AM
So the official concensus is that the Milodon pump with the stock cast iron housing is the way to go?

That's what i have on mine and it's staying there !  :coolgleamA:

Quote from: gasoline_24 on August 18, 2009, 10:42:27 AM
That sounds like what I am hearing.  Mancini carries the water pump and has then in stock.  They are sending mine today.  I think the only real difference between the aluminum and original is about 8-10 lbs., which for my stroker I doubt I will notice.  However, I would wait for Ron to chime in as he is the man.   :icon_smile_big:

Greg, just use the stock housing and Milodon pump....i don't trust the 440 Source pump or housing.  :P

Apparently Wayne has been struggling with overheating issues on his Dart that were never an issue before the installation of his new housing and pump....you guessed it  :lol:


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 18, 2009, 11:31:21 AM
Pulled mine out of the box this morning and checked it. Sure enough... the ports are about 1/2 the size of the originals :o, and not very smooth in terms of flow potential. Now I'm not the type who would sell my problems to someone else, so that puppy is going nowhere but in the scrap bin...
We'll chalk that one up to lessons learned.  :2thumbs:

Mike
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 11:33:19 AM
Quote from: Mfr426 on August 18, 2009, 11:21:16 AM
Yeah Ron, I'm running that pump combo that I got from 440Source and EVEN installed a trans cooler to try to help cool my 505 stroker. The temp did not waiver even after I put the cooler in. I've never had an engine run this hot all time. Looking at that photo says it all. I guess I'll be ripping the front end of the engine off again.

This is such a good post and find Ron. Thanks for taking the time to share the findings.  :2thumbs:

Mike R



You're welcome Mike....maybe it's time to look at the cam timing when you pull the engine down to R&R the pump....kill 2 birds with one stone.  ;)



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 18, 2009, 11:36:39 AM
Well, as I'm reading this I'm a bit surprised. I have a 440 source WP and housing on my 572 Hemi and have no issues. I will admit that I did gasket match the ports before I installed it but unaware at the time that it was "bad". I didn't notice any restrictions compared to a stock housing but then again I didn't compare them together.
BTW, I just went to a show over the weekend with another member 69 our/tea and drove it over an hour in this brutal heat with no issues. I believe that my engine is streatable but very stout with 11:1 compression, solid roller cam, and all the rest of the stuff that goes with it.  
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Just 6T9 CHGR on August 18, 2009, 11:44:23 AM
Made this a sticky for all to see....
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 18, 2009, 11:54:03 AM
Quote from: NOT Just 6T9 CHGR on August 18, 2009, 11:44:23 AM
Made this a sticky for all to see....


You beet me to it. I was going to do the same thing.     :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on August 18, 2009, 12:01:57 PM
turbobitt, if yours is working then I'd say just don't even think about it anymore.  Obviously, that's the important thing.
Is there any aluminum housing which is good?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 18, 2009, 12:02:34 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 18, 2009, 11:36:39 AM
Well, as I'm reading this I'm a bit surprised. I have a 440 source WP and housing on my 572 Hemi and have no issues. I will admit that I did gasket match the ports before I installed it but unaware at the time that it was "bad". I didn't notice any restrictions compared to a stock housing but then again I didn't compare them together.
BTW, I just went to a show over the weekend with another member 69 our/tea and drove it over an hour in this brutal heat with no issues. I believe that my engine is streatable but very stout with 11:1 compression, solid roller cam, and all the rest of the stuff that goes with it. 

If it's working for you, that's great!... nothing wrong there my friend. Obviously they are working just fine for any number of folks out there. For me however... I'm looking at them side by side and saying "given the choice, which would I rather use". Under these circumstances, I have to run with the higher flow potential... If my block was already up and running, and working just fine, I wouldn't have anything to be concerned with. At this time however, I still have a choice... so better safe than sorry I guess.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Belgium R/T -68 on August 18, 2009, 12:05:04 PM
I checked my old invoices and found that my pump is indeed a Milodon but the housing is a Summit one (SUM-314441).
Is that also chines crap or? :eek2:

Per
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 12:14:05 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on August 18, 2009, 12:01:57 PM
Is there any aluminum housing which is good?


Shawn.....just got off the phone with Dwayne to report my findings. He has an older (1986) MP aluminum housing on hand and did the finger sweep....it's good. Basicly the older MP unit is an exact reproduction of the earlier 66-67 style housing and as such requires the bigger alternator bracket.

I'd be interested to see what the new MP housings look like....or rather feel like !  :lol:

Mancini also carries their own line of housings....that is another option but rest assured i would want to have it in my hands to inspect before forking over any cash.  :Twocents:


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 18, 2009, 12:14:44 PM
I think until we can get side by side comparisons of all available housings the jury is out on most. BUT,,,,,,, Like Ron I did the side by side and the 440 Source housing is VERY restrictive. The 440 Source housing WILL NOT be going on my motor.


It's obvious to me that a FLOW TEST had never been done on the 440 Source housing. It's a damn nice looking piece from the outside, but doing the job PROPERLY is  MOST important...

I know many are still chasing high temps. I get the feeling that many temps will be coming down after making this change.  :icon_smile_blackeye:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on August 18, 2009, 12:17:06 PM
Brian Shaughnessy needs to get his buddy E-booger on this.  It's a tech story right up MA's alley and one that needs to be done.  Besdies, they have more money (than me) to go out and get a bunch of housings for comparison.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 12:17:31 PM
Quote from: Belgium R/T -68 on August 18, 2009, 12:05:04 PM
I checked my old invoices and found that my pump is indeed a Milodon but the housing is a Summit one (SUM-314441).
Is that also chines crap or? :eek2:

Per


The Milodon pump was a keeper....try and get it back !!!  :lol:

I can't comment on the Summit housing....haven't seen one. It might be descent....or not ?  :scratchchin:



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: lisiecki1 on August 18, 2009, 12:18:31 PM
hey ron, thanks for the post, i was going to replace my stock cast housing with one of those POS.....you just saved me 100 bucks!  Glad you got your temp problem sorted.  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: my73charger on August 18, 2009, 01:24:41 PM
Wow this is a good read.  I have had overheating problems with my 440 since it was built.  I run a large aluminum radiator with both an electric fan and a mechanical fan together just to keep it around 190 degrees but if I sit an idle on a hot day it will frequently creep up to the 215 degree mark.  I don't have a 440 Source housing, but I am not sure what it came off from either (it isn't aluminum though).  I bought it from a friend.  I will be checking this soon.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mick70RR on August 18, 2009, 02:10:09 PM
Ron, did you have the housing with 440 Source cast into the front or the original one with no name on it?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mick70RR on August 18, 2009, 02:53:40 PM
Looks to me like 440 Source sell three different castings.
All pics are from their website.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Belgium R/T -68 on August 18, 2009, 03:29:48 PM
Actually I think they use the same housings to show the different boltkits. As I read their website they have 2 castings, right and leftside outlet.

Per
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mick70RR on August 18, 2009, 03:50:02 PM
Per, they sell two with the outlet on the left and two with the outlet on the right. One of each type has 440 Source cast into the front and they are cheaper than the one's that don't. The orignal casting, (top picture), I believe is sold by a number of outlets, at least they look identical.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: suntech on August 18, 2009, 04:58:36 PM
Very good reading Ron!!!
I am building a aluminum hemi, and would ofcause like to have an aluminum housing on it. My plan was to buy a few housings, and flow them, and play around with impeller design together with Boyesen Engineering. They has some badass impellers for dirtbikes etc.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 06:01:25 PM
Quote from: Mick70RR on August 18, 2009, 02:10:09 PM
Ron, did you have the housing with 440 Source cast into the front or the original one with no name on it?



Hey Mick, mine is the model with no logo on it.  :yesnod:

I wonder if the housing with the logo on it has a revised design ?  :shruggy:

A simple test is to run your engine with the rad cap off and observe the coolant flow when the stat opens....even at idle the water should be moving briskly and when you bump the throttle it should just fly.  :2thumbs:


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Hot_Rodder on August 18, 2009, 07:32:31 PM
For the folks who have bought these, sorry to hear it. Though I do prefer to learn from other folks mistakes, and in this case, can't say that anything has changed, glad o hear about this problem before I bought the setup.... Has anyone spoke to 440 Source about this problem, I'm sure someone has, I'm just wondering what source said about it???
:popcrn:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Runner on August 18, 2009, 08:04:23 PM
ron  thanks for the heads up. i have a mopar aluminum one on my roadrunner and seriously considered getting the 440 source one for our pink car when i was biulding the motor, i needed a passenger side inlet pump and the price was right. i guess i really lucked out when i found a factory one in my parts stash.

    the real shame of this ( and im not trying to start a debate about this so dont take this the wrong way anyone) if dwayne wouldnt have been beaten up so bad about his steath head findings on moparts then this might of been comon knowlegeby now.  again thanks for the heads up.

   are you sure that the heating problem isnt those forged pistons,  shoulda used hypers!   :nana:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mally69 on August 18, 2009, 08:05:07 PM
 :cheers:  good eye bro, i actually bought one for my 512 , ill have to change that out, i never actually looked at it that close, good thing i got some old cast iron ones laying around ill have to clean one up.   :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mfr426 on August 18, 2009, 08:36:51 PM
I'll be R/R'ing my 440Source pump this weekend if I can get the honey to give me a few hours to tinker in the garage. If my 505 runs cooler with the stock housing and the new Milodon HV pump (thanks Ron) I'll be calling 440Source about the situation. I spent quite a bit of money with them (a few grand) and if this pump combo is as bad as it sounds I'll let them know that I'd like to negociate some form of refund. I can be very persuvive when I need to be.  :yesnod:

I wish it was Friday so I could start wrenching.  :cheers:

Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mikesbbody on August 18, 2009, 11:13:41 PM
Thanks for the heads up Ron  :2thumbs: I too was considering the 440 source waterpump but not now. I see the WP wasnt the problem though but you chose to stick with your Milodon (looking at the pics I can see why!) I have always had the factory housing and pumps. I have had 2 pumps let go on me but that's in 10 years so imo not too bad...
You are right Ron, those 440source type WP's are on Ebay all the time.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: TexasStroker on August 19, 2009, 01:08:13 AM
I had heard that the water neck holes were off, but this is a serious issue that I can't correct.  A friend picked one up for his car and I'd been wanting to know if he had to egg the water neck bolt holes or not...I will relay this information.

I had really wanted to pick up a 440source wp housing as I thought they were a trick piece at a good price...

I am hopeful that they will not take this as an insult, but as an issue that they can resolve by updating the casting...
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: tan top on August 19, 2009, 03:24:22 AM
Quote from: Ghoste on August 18, 2009, 12:17:06 PM
Brian Shaughnessy needs to get his buddy E-booger on this.  It's a tech story right up MA's alley and one that needs to be done.  Besdies, they have more money (than me) to go out and get a bunch of housings for comparison.

yeah that sounds like thats a bit of them , doing a test like that  :yesnod:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 19, 2009, 05:33:04 AM
I also question whether or not they already knew they had a problem. I mean, we know the Chinese don't give a crap about quality control, but it sure seems to me that if I was putting out a product I would want it to be the best in the business. This means testing in every way possible. These cannot have had a flow test done against the original mopar housings. If it were mine I would want to be able to boast that my product was BETTER in every way.   It would NOT have my name on it any other way...
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 19, 2009, 07:40:58 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 06:01:25 PM

Hey Mick, mine is the model with no logo on it.  :yesnod:

I wonder if the housing with the logo on it has a revised design ?  :shruggy:

Ron

Unfortunately, the one that I have is just like yours Ron (no Logo), so I can't answer that question either.
I do wonder about the pump itself however... The 440 impeller design is superior to that of your normal water slapper, but whether or not it actually works any better or not remains to be seen. Maybe I'll do a little side by side testing here just for squirts and wiggles. :scratchchin:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 400/6/PAC on August 19, 2009, 09:06:04 AM
My motor has ran hot ever since I first got it going.
I only have a few hundred miles on it and still have not quite got the 3 duces and timing dialed in.
I kept thinking that was the cause of the over heating.
Can't wait to get home and check the pump and housing.
Thanks Ron :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: tripleblkr/t on August 19, 2009, 11:27:49 AM
Just got off the phone with 440 scorce and they seemed to know nothing about the issues with these water pump housings. I have one of there newer style waterpumps on my car and it's running really hot all the time. I took the cap off my radiator last night while running and the coolant is barely moving around. It seems like all my new parts are bad :brickwall:.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 19, 2009, 12:04:02 PM
I did build a rig this morning that will allow me to test the pumps and housings off engine in my shop under controlled conditions. Unfortunately, I don't have any more time to play with it today. Hopefully tomorrow I can begin running a few tests :scratchchin:

:popcrn:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: tripleblkr/t on August 19, 2009, 12:14:37 PM
What I dont get is my engine temp was great on the dyno with the 440 scorce water pump, right around 168.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: lisiecki1 on August 19, 2009, 12:16:02 PM
does an engine dyno recirculate the coolant like a closed-circuit system in a car?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mick70RR on August 19, 2009, 02:45:45 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 06:01:25 PM
Quote from: Mick70RR on August 18, 2009, 02:10:09 PM
Ron, did you have the housing with 440 Source cast into the front or the original one with no name on it?



Hey Mick, mine is the model with no logo on it.  :yesnod:

I wonder if the housing with the logo on it has a revised design ?  :shruggy:

A simple test is to run your engine with the rad cap off and observe the coolant flow when the stat opens....even at idle the water should be moving briskly and when you bump the throttle it should just fly.  :2thumbs:


Ron

I have the one without the logo too but I don't have any overheating problems. That's why I thought the problem might be just with the newer housing with the logo. I will run the engine without the radiator cap some time over the weekend and see how quickly the water is flowing.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: gasoline_24 on August 19, 2009, 03:11:00 PM
Quote from: tripleblkr/t on August 19, 2009, 11:27:49 AM
Just got off the phone with 440 scorce and they seemed to know nothing about the issues with these water pump housings. I have one of there newer style waterpumps on my car and it's running really hot all the time. I took the cap off my radiator last night while running and the coolant is barely moving around. It seems like all my new parts are bad :brickwall:.

I feel your pain.  It seems to go in spurts and then you become numb to it.  I was just happy I found out when I did.  A day later and it would have been repainting the engine.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: my73charger on August 19, 2009, 03:29:11 PM
Not to overstate the obvious but they obviously lack quality control where these are manufactured.  I wonder if they have a crappy casting?  It would be interesting to be able to compare one of the units from one of the guys that are not experiencing problems with a unit like Ron pulled from his.  You have to wonder why the units with small ports are that way to begin with.  I guess my point or thought is, I wonder how they could have units that perform ok and others that don't?  I am glad Ron brought this issue to light.  It might save alot of heartache.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Chatt69chgr on August 19, 2009, 05:47:02 PM
I see that Summit Racing sells the Mopar Perf aluminum water pump housing, P/N P4286900 ($169) and their own brand SUM-314441 ($139).  Mancini sells both the MP version and their own brand MRE-86900 ($89).  Has anybody bought one of these and not installed it yet?  Would be interesting to know if the same problem is present that has been found with the 440Source piece.  Of course, there could be other internal deficiencies.  Only real true test is to flow all of them.  I have one of the 440Source housings and pumps on the 440 I'm building.  Looks like I have just lost $100.  I would still like to run a aluminum housing if one of them turns out to flow as good as the original cast iron piece.  I'll probably go with the Milodon pump for that part along with the Milodon high volume thermostat.  Great thread.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Belgium R/T -68 on August 20, 2009, 01:53:58 AM
I have the Summit one and thinking of remove it since I didn't start up the engine yet and my radiator is not installed.
I do have some old stock ones to compare with if you think it woould be easy to notice any differences.

Per
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 01:58:41 AM
Quote from: Belgium R/T -68 on August 20, 2009, 01:53:58 AM
I have the Summit one and thinking of remove it since I didn't start up the engine yet and my radiator is not installed.
I do have some old stock ones to compare with if you think it woould be easy to notice any differences.

Per


Per....use your stock housing to compare. Pay close attention to the lower passenger side opening on the aftermarket housing....on mine there was a big difference.  :yesnod:


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: my73charger on August 20, 2009, 07:24:05 AM
Has anyone had a chance to check one of the new MP housings yet?  Ron, do you know of any differences between the stock iron housings from year to year?

I wonder who manufactures the housing from Bouchillon Performance...  I might call and ask them.

http://www.bouchillonperformance.com/ (http://www.bouchillonperformance.com/)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 08:46:09 AM
Quote from: tripleblkr/t on August 19, 2009, 12:14:37 PM
What I dont get is my engine temp was great on the dyno with the 440 scorce water pump, right around 168.


A water restriction issue that causes overheating would not show up on the dyno....you have an unlimited supply of cold water to keep the engine cool.  ;)



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: lisiecki1 on August 20, 2009, 09:44:49 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 08:46:09 AM
Quote from: tripleblkr/t on August 19, 2009, 12:14:37 PM
What I dont get is my engine temp was great on the dyno with the 440 scorce water pump, right around 168.


A water restriction issue that causes overheating would not show up on the dyno....you have an unlimited supply of cold water to keep the engine cool.  ;)



Ron

that answers my question too  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 11:59:04 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 08:46:09 AM
Quote from: tripleblkr/t on August 19, 2009, 12:14:37 PM
What I dont get is my engine temp was great on the dyno with the 440 scorce water pump, right around 168.


A water restriction issue that causes overheating would not show up on the dyno....you have an unlimited supply of cold water to keep the engine cool.  ;)



Ron

This statement is incorrect since most , if not all dyno's use a water to water heat exchange system that still requires the water pump to flow water through the engine. The "Unlimited" water supply is on one side of the heat exchange system but not the engine side. If the water pump didn't turn in the dyno, it would still overheat. So if there was a flow restriction on the dyno, the same would happen.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 12:17:10 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 11:59:04 AM

This statement is incorrect since most , if not all dyno's use a water to water heat exchange system that still requires the water pump to flow water through the engine. The "Unlimited" water supply is on one side of the heat exchange system but not the engine side. If the water pump didn't turn in the dyno, it would still overheat. So if there was a flow restriction on the dyno, the same would happen.

Sorry, but that is an incorrect statement since the purpose of a fluid heat exchanger is to provide a constant source of cooling water which is used to control and remove the heat from the engines cooling system fluids. It's like sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater, it will never get hot, and therefore the cooling water entering the engine will never be hot. You use the flow rate and temperature of the water flowing through the heat exchanger to control the temperature of the secondary system, which in this case is your engines cooling system.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 12:21:12 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 11:59:04 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 08:46:09 AM
Quote from: tripleblkr/t on August 19, 2009, 12:14:37 PM
What I dont get is my engine temp was great on the dyno with the 440 scorce water pump, right around 168.


A water restriction issue that causes overheating would not show up on the dyno....you have an unlimited supply of cold water to keep the engine cool.  ;)



Ron

This statement is incorrect since most , if not all dyno's use a water to water heat exchange system that still requires the water pump to flow water through the engine. The "Unlimited" water supply is on one side of the heat exchange system but not the engine side. If the water pump didn't turn in the dyno, it would still overheat. So if there was a flow restriction on the dyno, the same would happen.


I beg to differ  :icon_smile_big:

If you have a 1000gal cold water supply you won't be constantly trying to cool superheated water that would be present in a closed system such that is run in a car. As long as there is enough circulation to supply fresh cool water there should be no overheating that could be attributed to poor flow....unless that flow was non existant. The example you use illustrating a non functional waterpump is valid....but that is not the case in this instance...there is some flow but it is restricted. Think of a dyno water supply as a Lake with unlimited resources....



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 01:02:18 PM
Turbobitt....i'm not sure comparing a Hemi to a wedge is even a valid/fair comparison. The larger hemi cylinder head casting holds more coolant than a wedge head due to it's mass....how much more I don't know. It's quite possible that the extra capacity and better chamber design has some influence on the rate of thermal transfer.  :scratchchin: An interesting test would be to measure coolant temps inside the heads (wedge vs hemi) with a thermal probe and compare....not really practical but it would shed some light on the discussion.

Ron


Ps. I'm glad to hear your's is working fine. Are you satisfied with the coolant flow across the top of the tank with the stat open ? That to me is the key factor in this discussion. I can tell you that poor flow in a wedge head build equals increased operating temps and radiant heat....no doubt about it in my mind.  :yesnod:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: my73charger on August 20, 2009, 01:44:33 PM
Ron,

Where do you pick up one of those thermal gauges?  How much are they?

Tim
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 03:10:54 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 01:02:18 PM
Turbobitt....i'm not sure comparing a Hemi to a wedge is even a valid/fair comparison. The larger hemi cylinder head casting holds more coolant than a wedge head due to it's mass....how much more I don't know. It's quite possible that the extra capacity and better chamber design has some influence on the rate of thermal transfer.  :scratchchin: An interesting test would be to measure coolant temps inside the heads (wedge vs hemi) with a thermal probe and compare....not really practical but it would shed some light on the discussion.

Ron


Ps. I'm glad to hear your's is working fine. Are you satisfied with the coolant flow across the top of the tank with the stat open ? That to me is the key factor in this discussion. I can tell you that poor flow in a wedge head build equals increased operating temps and radiant heat....no doubt about it in my mind.  :yesnod:

The problem your talking about is with lack of water flow. This wouldn't matter if it was a wedge or Hemi. No flow = no cooling = overheating. 
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 03:16:55 PM
Quote from: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 12:17:10 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 11:59:04 AM

This statement is incorrect since most , if not all dyno's use a water to water heat exchange system that still requires the water pump to flow water through the engine. The "Unlimited" water supply is on one side of the heat exchange system but not the engine side. If the water pump didn't turn in the dyno, it would still overheat. So if there was a flow restriction on the dyno, the same would happen.

Sorry, but that is an incorrect statement since the purpose of a fluid heat exchanger is to provide a constant source of cooling water which is used to control and remove the heat from the engines cooling system fluids. It's like sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater, it will never get hot, and therefore the cooling water entering the engine will never be hot. You use the flow rate and temperature of the water flowing through the heat exchanger to control the temperature of the secondary system, which in this case is your engines cooling system.

I have extensive experience with dyno heat exchangers and my statement is correct. You say that the water entering the engine is always cool becasue of an unlimited supply. This is only partially correct since the heat exchanger is cooled with an unlimited supply of water BUT the argument here is that there is no water flow due to restrictive pump casting. It wouldn't mater how cold the water is if there is no flow.

BTW - "sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater" is no good. You still need cool water to flow across to exchange heat. The water around the core would get hot very fast.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 03:21:07 PM
Another thing to note, fast moving water doesn't mean best cooling. The water needds to move at a rate that will allow it to exchange heat across the radiator effectivly. This is why removing the T-stat without adding a restrictor often results in overheating. The coolnt needs to spend some time in the radiator exchanging heat.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 04:22:07 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 03:16:55 PM
BTW - "sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater" is no good. You still need cool water to flow across to exchange heat. The water around the core would get hot very fast.

That's what a heat exchanger does, that's why they have an inlet and an outlet on the cooler... for fresh cooling water to circulate in and out of the cooler... CONSTANTLY, ALL THE TIME, A NEVER ENDING SUPPLY... how many other ways can we spell this out for you :brickwall:.

Ron is correct...
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 04:24:48 PM
This would make more sense to me. The water pump is not a positive displacement pump by design. The pump needs to move when the water is dead headed when the t-stat is closed. The water pump efficiency would be greatly influenced by the gap between the impellor and the housing. If the gap was to large, the pump wouldn't move water properly and just move it around the pump housing without going into the proper ports. If for some reason your pump and housing have an unfavorable gap, than maybe the flow would be less than optimal. This may be worth looking into.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 04:27:51 PM
Quote from: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 04:22:07 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 03:16:55 PM
BTW - "sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater" is no good. You still need cool water to flow across to exchange heat. The water around the core would get hot very fast.

That's what a heat exchanger does, that's why they have an inlet and an outlet on the cooler... for fresh cooling water to circulate in and out of the cooler... CONSTANTLY, ALL THE TIME, A NEVER ENDING SUPPLY... how many other ways can we spell this out for you :brickwall:.

Ron is correct...

Well, wasn't intending this to be a heated discussion but oh well.  You fail to see the point that you still need to pump the water regardless of your "never ending water supply".  Water still needs to flow from point A to B. Unless another pump was used on the dyno, than I would look elsewhere.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 04:40:23 PM
Quote from: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 04:22:07 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 03:16:55 PM
BTW - "sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater" is no good. You still need cool water to flow across to exchange heat. The water around the core would get hot very fast.

That's what a heat exchanger does, that's why they have an inlet and an outlet on the cooler... for fresh cooling water to circulate in and out of the cooler... CONSTANTLY, ALL THE TIME, A NEVER ENDING SUPPLY... how many other ways can we spell this out for you :brickwall:.

Ron is correct...

Musicman, I spent a lot of time in and around dyno cells and engine endurance cells. I helped design and service the overhead heat exchangers for these cells. Believe me when I tell you that an engine without a pump or restriction will not cool itself with a never ending supply. It still needs to flow. I don't have any doubts that there may be something wrong with this pump/housing. Just don't think its the port size. The thermostat would seem be the bottleneck since even with the ports size being small wiould stil outflow the one common t-stat.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 04:45:37 PM
The point that Ron was initially trying to make was that as long as the Thermostat is working, and the water pump is circulating some amount of water through the system... the engine may never overheat on a dyno because the dyno uses an efficient water cooled heat exchanger for cooling and not an inefficient natural ambient air cooled system, like those found under the hood of your car.

Hence, the problem may never be seen on a dyno, but may show up rather quickly once the engine is installed in the vehicle.

Quote
The thermostat would seem be the bottleneck since even with the ports size being small wiould stil outflow the one common t-stat.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but the fact remains that Ron's problem went away when he changed out the housing, the t-stat remained the same from one housing to the next.

The problem I see in my housing is the fact that the ports themselves do not appear to have very good flow characteristics, as well as being small in size.

By the way, I have over 30 years experience designing, building, engineering and operating US Navy Nuclear Powered Submarines. It's my job to engineer, test, operate and troubleshoot all forms of complex systems, Mechanical & Electrical, many of which use various forms of heat transfer systems.

Sounds like a simple case of miscommunication, no offense intended or taken. Happens all the time on these forums...

:cheers:

Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mick70RR on August 20, 2009, 05:09:51 PM
I'd be interested to know how the 440 Source housing performed with the Milodon pump.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 05:21:04 PM
I will be running some tests in my shop here very shortly that may answer a few questions.

Stock Housing - Stock Pump
Stock Housing - 440 Souce Pump
440 Source Housing - Stock Pump
440Source Housing - 440 Source Pump

etc... Sorry I don't have a Milodon kicking around at the moment.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 05:32:04 PM
Quote from: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 04:45:37 PM
The point that Ron was initially trying to make was that as long as the Thermostat is working, and the water pump is circulating some amount of water through the system... the engine may never overheat on a dyno because the dyno uses an efficient water cooled heat exchanger for cooling and not an inefficient natural ambient air cooled system, like those found under the hood of your car.

Hence, the problem may never be seen on a dyno, but may show up rather quickly once the engine is installed in the vehicle.

Quote
The thermostat would seem be the bottleneck since even with the ports size being small would still outflow the one common t-stat.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but the fact remains that Ron's problem went away when he changed out the housing, the t-stat remained the same from one housing to the next.

The problem I see in my housing is the fact that the ports themselves do not appear to have very good flow characteristics, as well as being small in size.

By the way, I have over 30 years experience designing, building, engineering and operating US Navy Nuclear Powered Submarines. It's my job to engineer, test, operate and troubleshoot all forms of complex systems, Mechanical & Electrical, many of which use various forms of heat transfer systems.

Sounds like a simple case of miscommunication, no offense intended or taken. Happens all the time on these forums...

:cheers:



Check out my post above, I bet the problem is in the impeller to housing interaction and not the port size.

BTW. I'm not going to compare credentials but I spent a lot of time in the Heavy duty diesel industry and oversaw the development of many types of diesel engines. I had the pleasure of travelling to CAT , Cummins, and International for various reasons and worked on many others. My place of employment had one of the most sophisticated dyno's in the world but is now somewhat dated. I got to see a lot of cooling problems and a lot were miss diagnosed. A lot of problems went away when we switched from regular street water to coolant. Regular water will cavitate and erode parts much quicker than coolant.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 05:34:09 PM
Quote from: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 05:21:04 PM
I will be running some tests in my shop here very shortly that may answer a few questions.

Stock Housing - Stock Pump
Stock Housing - 440 Souce Pump
440 Source Housing - Stock Pump
440Source Housing - 440 Source Pump

etc... Sorry I don't have a Milodon kicking around at the moment.

Sounds like the makings of a good test. How about some measurments between the impeler and housing, specifically the suspect housing and pump ?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 05:40:15 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 04:24:48 PM
This would make more sense to me. The water pump is not a positive displacement pump by design. The pump needs to move when the water is dead headed when the t-stat is closed.

Technically, the pump will move just fine indefinately while the stat is closed....that is why there is a Bypass built into the BB mopar waterpump housing.  ;) The lower opening on my aftermarket housing is significantly smaller than the thermostat. Your point on restriction i do agree with...the stat or restrictor is a necessity.

Anybody who's operated a dyno extensively will tell you that lots of potential problems can get masked in a "controlled" environment.  :Twocents:


Put another way ; supposing you had a known overheating issue as a result of Lazy water circulation....which would you rather have ; an unlimited supply of say room temperature water or a limited supply of say 180* water....i suppose that is the issue we are discussing here  :yesnod: And further to that....which do you feel would perform better ?



Ron



Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 05:47:39 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 05:34:09 PM
Quote from: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 05:21:04 PM
I will be running some tests in my shop here very shortly that may answer a few questions.

Stock Housing - Stock Pump
Stock Housing - 440 Souce Pump
440 Source Housing - Stock Pump
440Source Housing - 440 Source Pump

etc... Sorry I don't have a Milodon kicking around at the moment.

Sounds like the makings of a good test. How about some measurments between the impeler and housing, specifically the suspect housing and pump ?


I could take some measurements  :scratchchin: But honestly i'm not thrilled with the impeller design on the 440 source pump. The ribs look small and cheesy compared to the Milodon pump. Both have anti-cavitation plates so i don't think that played into the equasion.

Honestly, all you have to do is stick your finger in the lower passenger side port and compare to a stock housing. I can't see anyone being happy with that level of restriction....especially on the "supply" side of the cooling system.  ;)


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 06:09:09 PM
Ron,

There is a difference between your 440 Source housing and mine and/or eveyone elses. I personally think it may be more than the hole restrictons. It would also be interesting if the port opening was opened up to gasket size to see if there was an improvement. If the problem is fixable through simple porting, would be nice to know. If the problem is a machining clearance issue with a dimensional value to look for, that would be nice to know also. This would eliminate the generalization that there all bad and would set people at ease who already purchased them but have not used them and can inspect for a specific defect. It may end up being the port size. Maybe your housing had some core shift ? I can't remember anything specific about mine other than opening the ports to match the gasket.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Chatt69chgr on August 20, 2009, 06:51:56 PM
Great discussion.  Once we get to the bottom of this, we need to share the findings with the other Mopar forums. 

I really appreciate the level of maturity of the members on our forum.  Folks can engage in a discussion, sometimes heated but remain civil and objective.  You won't find this on a lot of car forums.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 07:20:21 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 20, 2009, 06:09:09 PM
Ron,

There is a difference between your 440 Source housing and mine and/or eveyone elses. I personally think it may be more than the hole restrictons. It would also be interesting if the port opening was opened up to gasket size to see if there was an improvement. If the problem is fixable through simple porting, would be nice to know. If the problem is a machining clearance issue with a dimensional value to look for, that would be nice to know also. This would eliminate the generalization that there all bad and would set people at ease who already purchased them but have not used them and can inspect for a specific defect. It may end up being the port size. Maybe your housing had some core shift ? I can't remember anything specific about mine other than opening the ports to match the gasket.

Turbobitt ;

Several members on the Moparts thread inspected their (440 Source) housings and made the same observation i did. The opening seems fine....the problem lies deeper in the casting where you can't see. When i installed mine i noticed that the port openings were slightly smaller than stock but nothing that really concerned me. I didn't think to look inside....just took for granted that the internal dimensions were identical to stock.  :yesnod:

Once i knew what to look for the restriction was quite apparent. I bet the smallest part of that port flows maybe 30% of the port opening....on the stock housing it's pretty much the same size as far down as i can reach. Obviously a more scientific method would involve actual fluid volume measurement over a fixed period of time.  Sounds like a project for Mike  :icon_smile_big:


Ron


Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 07:41:37 PM
Ron

Quick question... Were you running the Milodon pump with 440 housing, or did you change that as well? I was under the impression that the only thing changed was the housing itself, and you were already running your favorite Milodon pump.

This information will be good to know for test purposes. The 440 source pump is a better design, but I agree that the depth of the impellers is rather shallow, and therefore it may not flow as well as it should. As far as fitment goes... I haven't actually measured one either, but I know that if I stick my 440 source pump in either of the housings without a gasket, it literally drags on the back surface of the housing.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hpmike on August 20, 2009, 08:44:15 PM
I build a few Mopar engines at  my shop.

I have never bought a 440 Source product, at least not knowingly anyway.  A customer gave me a Source wp hsg and it didn't lay flat on the table, so I didn't bother to use it.  I have probably purchased over 25 wp housings from Mancini over the last few years and while honestly I probably wouldn't think to dig my finger down in there(unless perhaps I was chasing a potential problem) I haven't had any rash of issues. Just for shits and giggles I went over the ones I presently had on hand at the shop. 6 in total.   Two OE's(One iron and another early race Hemi aluminum) and 4 seperate hsgs that were aluminum.  1 was an MP part with P number and the others were the ones that Mancini sells.  All seemed pretty much the same internally and did not exhibit the necked down situation as described.  Interesting find though and worth a look to make sure anyway.   

Take it for whatever it's worth,.. :shruggy:

MB
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 20, 2009, 08:48:09 PM
Turbobit,  Before you get any tighter, PLease stick your finger down into the lower PASSENGER side passage of the 440 source pump housing. You will then understand what we are saying.  Gasket matching has NOTHING to do with it..

It's the same as pinching down your garden hose. It isn't going to have great pressure with LITTLE volume.....

Your analogy of T-stat and orifice is correct, only these housings have there OWN ORIFICE.


Musicman: I am dying to see your results... Being a NAVY Machinist Mate, I did my time on pumps, motors, evaps and generators. I agree the 440 source pump STYLE is better. High volume with great pressure and no cavitation. BUT, after seeing the lousy inner casting of the housing it makes me wonder how bad the impeller casting is. Egg shape/out of balance?? Who knows. I know there isn't much volume getting through a 1/2" or smaller hole.....

:patriot:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 09:20:37 PM
Quote from: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 07:41:37 PM
Ron

Quick question... Were you running the Milodon pump with 440 housing, or did you change that as well? I was under the impression that the only thing changed was the housing itself, and you were already running your favorite Milodon pump.

This information will be good to know for test purposes. The 440 source pump is a better design, but I agree that the depth of the impellers is rather shallow, and therefore it may not flow as well as it should. As far as fitment goes... I haven't actually measured one either, but I know that if I stick my 440 source pump in either of the housings without a gasket, it literally drags on the back surface of the housing.



Mike, i swapped both the housing and pump at the same time. The Milodon pump was mounted to my factory housing and was removed intact and reinstalled the same way. I had considered testing the milodon pump on the Source housing but it's a real pain with my car....the rad and fan have to be removed to access the housing. I have maybe 1/2in clearance between the puller fan and water pump pulley.  :P

The factory housing & Milodon pump worked just fine before....i should have just left well enough alone.  :brickwall:


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 20, 2009, 09:23:31 PM
Quote from: hpmike on August 20, 2009, 08:44:15 PM
I build a few Mopar engines at  my shop.

I have never bought a 440 Source product, at least not knowingly anyway.  A customer gave me a Source wp hsg and it didn't lay flat on the table, so I didn't bother to use it.  I have probably purchased over 25 wp housings from Mancini over the last few years and while honestly I probably wouldn't think to dig my finger down in there(unless perhaps I was chasing a potential problem) I haven't had any rash of issues. Just for shits and giggles I went over the ones I presently had on hand at the shop. 6 in total.   Two OE's(One iron and another early race Hemi aluminum) and 4 seperate hsgs that were aluminum.  1 was an MP part with P number and the others were the ones that Mancini sells.  All seemed pretty much the same internally and did not exhibit the necked down situation as described.  Interesting find though and worth a look to make sure anyway.   

Take it for whatever it's worth,.. :shruggy:

MB


Mike, thanks for the report.  :2thumbs:


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 21, 2009, 07:49:59 AM
Quote from: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 07:41:37 PM
Ron

Quick question... Were you running the Milodon pump with 440 housing, or did you change that as well? I was under the impression that the only thing changed was the housing itself, and you were already running your favorite Milodon pump.

Quote
Mike, i swapped both the housing and pump at the same time. The Milodon pump was mounted to my factory housing and was removed intact and reinstalled the same way.

Thanks Ron

That being the case, I owe Turbobitt an apology for providing him with misleading information. I was under the assumtion that it was only the housing that had been changed.

So now we are looking at 3 possibles...
A: The housing was the problem
B: The pump was the problem
C: Both Pump and Housing were a problem

We'll find out soon enough...
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Hot_Rodder on August 21, 2009, 08:34:01 AM
 :popcrn:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 21, 2009, 03:02:06 PM
I don't for any apology. This want healthy debate based on facts. I have an interest in this because I know mine works with 440 Source pump and housing and have another in a box that I havn't had  a chance to look at or try. There must be a distinctive difference between mine and the suspect unit. I think if they all have the small ports than that is not the root cause. I suspect that it may be an impeller issue or an impeller to housing issue. Lets say for example the impeller was pressed on to deep, without having one in front of me I can't say that it is possible but entertain this thought anyway, the impeller would not pump very well if the clearances were not correct. Hopefully data will be gathered to shed some light.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: TylerCharger69 on August 21, 2009, 07:01:35 PM
Very interesting thread!!!  Probably a lot of problems solved due to this great research!!!   I noticed though.....that the Milodon pump has six impeller blades....I bought a cheap O'reiley's auto parts piece to get me by...and it has eight impeller blades.  Hmmmmm :shruggy:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 62 Max on August 21, 2009, 07:19:57 PM
The A/C cars got 6 blade pumps,all others got the 8 blade.From the old Direct Connection performance manual the 6 blade was recommend  by Staff Engineer Larry Sheppard ( no connection to the Larry Sheppard in OH) .Stated the slower circulation of the 6 blade pump kept the water in the radiator longer for better cooling.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: bull on August 21, 2009, 07:42:48 PM
The Stealth Head thread really soured my opinion of 440 Source and this one has pretty much driven the last nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. Now I've got a $100 paper weight too. :2thumbs: How about we all send our pumps and housings to Ron so he can sculpt them together with a welder. Once it's about six feet tall we'll embed it in the sidewalk in front of the 440 Source warehouse.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 400/6/PAC on August 22, 2009, 12:50:43 PM
I still cant get my car to run normal.
It looks like the water is not circulating.
I pulled the t-stat and still nothing
The housing has the chrysler stamp on the neck part # P4286899
Would an oversized radiator make it look like the water is not moveing. :shruggy:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mick70RR on August 22, 2009, 01:26:12 PM
I ran the car today with the radiator cap off and waited until the thermostat opened. There was little or no flow in the radiator at idle but I could see it flowing when I held the revs up. Does this sound about right, it's a 440 Source housing and pump?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 22, 2009, 02:30:31 PM
Quote from: 400/6/PAC on August 22, 2009, 12:50:43 PM
I still cant get my car to run normal.
It looks like the water is not circulating.
I pulled the t-stat and still nothing
The housing has the chrysler stamp on the neck part # P4286899
Would an oversized radiator make it look like the water is not moveing. :shruggy:


It sounds like the pump is not building enough pressure for some reason. You could have an air pocket in the cooling system somewhere. Try elevating the front end on a set of Ramps and run the engine with the cap off....this will purge the air pockets if there are any present. You need a stat or some type of restrictor plate in order for the pump to build up pressure.  :yesnod:

If all that fails then it's time to look at the pump and/or pullies.



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 22, 2009, 02:34:52 PM
Quote from: Mick70RR on August 22, 2009, 01:26:12 PM
I ran the car today with the radiator cap off and waited until the thermostat opened. There was little or no flow in the radiator at idle but I could see it flowing when I held the revs up. Does this sound about right, it's a 440 Source housing and pump?



Mick, that is what mine looked like....at idle it barely moved at all.  :P

With the stock housing/milodon pump it is moving significantly faster at idle and when I blip the throttle it looks like a hurricane in there. It's like 2 opposite ends of the spectrum.  :yesnod:

Have you verified your engine temps ? As long as it runs fine i wouldn't worry about it unless a problem develops.



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Belgium R/T -68 on August 22, 2009, 03:03:56 PM
I can verify that the housing from Summit, partnr 314441, has the same passage as my old stock. :2thumbs:

Per
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mick70RR on August 22, 2009, 03:09:51 PM
I need an accurate temperature gauge because I have lost all faith in the sender units. I have three of them that give me three different readings on the gauge. One reads very low, one reads about what you would want, the other reads a little higher than you would want.
The engine doesn't overheat or boil over, seems about right when I am under the hood so I am not too concerned. I expected to see more flow across the radiator though and might try a different pump at some time to see if it makes a difference.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: john108 on August 22, 2009, 11:16:06 PM
While accumulating parts, I purchased a 440Source waterpump and housing.  Stull in the original box.  What are the odds that they will take it back??  From this thread, it appears thar the housing has poor flow.  Is the pump also suspect?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: The70RT on August 22, 2009, 11:45:32 PM
Has anyone run the source pump on a stock housing? If so how is or was the flow?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: y3chargerrt on August 23, 2009, 07:20:16 AM
The odds are ZERO that they will take it back!
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 23, 2009, 02:07:35 PM
Ran one quick test this morning...

I used a stock housing with a stock 8 blade pump and ran it 15 times, 2 minutes each time at low RPM's (round town stuff).
I then mounted the 440 source pump on the same housing, ran it 15 times for 2 minutes at the same RPM's.

The stock 8 blade pump moved 15% more water than the 440 unit.

I have not done a high RPM test yet, or the housing test yet... they are next.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: TexasStroker on August 24, 2009, 09:28:29 PM
I was taking a dyno vid today and the shop I was at had a new 440Source housing.  It was par with OE cast housings.  I brought it up and they pulled it out of the box, brand new, and it looked fine...the openings were quite large. 

They had one or two housings in the past as described with the small feed holes and sharp 90 degree turn...The unit fresh out of the box was NOT one of the housings causing so much trouble.

To the best of my knowledge he purchased this housing a few months ago, I'm guessing June but could be wrong.

Figured it was good to throw that out there.  Idk if there are two core boxes out there, or there was a catastrophic collapse in a core box, or what, but the unit I saw today looked fine.  And by no means am I defending the units that are defective...There are some good housings based on what I saw today.  I don't know it his was from a fresh shipment, back stock that was cast better, or if he just got lucky but I did see it  :yesnod:

As mentioned I had wanted to pick one up and was only concered about the water neck holes until I saw this thread...Hopefully some calls to 440source will help explain the differences etc.  If it has been corrected now, there is no need to worry for future orders.  Hopefully they'll work toward resolving the issue.

I would hope something would be done, every little bit helps, for those who have one of the bad castings, but who knows. 

I'll still consider buying one if I find the issue has been resolved...
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 24, 2009, 10:49:07 PM
Correcting the molds is not a big issue. Quality control IS..... If these parts were going into a TOYOTA the company producing the parts would be out of business.

The T-stat housing bolt holes was supposed to be corrected more than a year ago before I bought mine. I have the issue. It's NOT a big deal, but it just should NOT be happening.  Going back a few years to when we had many foundries here in the states, these would be melted back down and never would make it to the buyer. Meaning 440 Source would NEVER even know they screwed up. They just would never have been sent to them in the first place. Now we want everything fast and cheap. We have become a throw away World and quality control COSTS TOO MUCH. So we eat crap and ask for more. This is what I feel is the biggest problem in the World today. Burn it, bury it, toss it away. That instead of building things to last a lifetime as we use to do. The days of HAND-ME-DOWN is long gone in 99% of everything we buy today.

Sorry for the rant. I just can't seem to find anything built with quality and longevity in mind anymore. :brickwall:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on August 24, 2009, 10:54:51 PM
You're aboslutely right though Steve and sadly as we send all of these jobs to China and put more and more people out of work or into lower paying jobs what started as a selfish urge to save a couple of bucks now becomes necessary and keeps the problem perpetuating.
I'll have to get mine down off the shelf and see if it's useable or one of the junk ones.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 25, 2009, 11:11:08 AM
Quote from: TexasStroker on August 24, 2009, 09:28:29 PM
I was taking a dyno vid today and the shop I was at had a new 440Source housing.  It was par with OE cast housings.  I brought it up and they pulled it out of the box, brand new, and it looked fine...the openings were quite large. 

They had one or two housings in the past as described with the small feed holes and sharp 90 degree turn...The unit fresh out of the box was NOT one of the housings causing so much trouble.



That's very interesting. I wonder if they recognized the problem and sourced them from another supplier ? That seems to be the way this company operates.  :P

I had mine out on the highway for a 60 minute run and maintained 3200rpm for the entire time....coolant temp was 180* with a 180* thermostat.  :2thumbs: It's running a little warmer at idle (195-200*) than i'd like so i'm gonna try a few things to see if i can drop it down 10-15* or so then it'll be perfect. I suspect the rad is slightly small in cooling capacity for a 540hp 440. The more i read up on this stuff...the more i'm convinced that a cross flow rad is the better choice with a high HP application. Mine is a downflow reproduction dual core aluminum unit...fwiw

I can tell that this rad will be inadequate for my 572 so i'll be rad shopping again this winter...



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Belgium R/T -68 on August 25, 2009, 12:47:34 PM
Is that why a Be cool costs moore then 500$? :scratchchin:

Per
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: TexasStroker on August 25, 2009, 01:10:21 PM
Couldn't tell you, lol.  If anyone figures it out and gets word from 440source that their housing is fixed or the issue has been resolved, maybe the next round of folks can keep us posted on their cooling issues.

This one won't be good for real world tech advice since it will be on a drag car that sees NO street miles.

I know a guy in the club had some off brand aluminum housing (not 440source) and he had hell with it...Not sure on the specific brand though.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Blown70 on August 25, 2009, 02:18:53 PM
Quote from: Belgium R/T -68 on August 25, 2009, 12:47:34 PM
Is that why a Be cool costs moore then 500$? :scratchchin:

Per

You should price a ron davis,  :D  Ask me how I know? :shruggy:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: my73charger on August 25, 2009, 02:45:48 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 25, 2009, 11:11:08 AM
Quote from: TexasStroker on August 24, 2009, 09:28:29 PM
I was taking a dyno vid today and the shop I was at had a new 440Source housing.  It was par with OE cast housings.  I brought it up and they pulled it out of the box, brand new, and it looked fine...the openings were quite large.  

They had one or two housings in the past as described with the small feed holes and sharp 90 degree turn...The unit fresh out of the box was NOT one of the housings causing so much trouble.



That's very interesting. I wonder if they recognized the problem and sourced them from another supplier ? That seems to be the way this company operates.  :P

I had mine out on the highway for a 60 minute run and maintained 3200rpm for the entire time....coolant temp was 180* with a 180* thermostat.  :2thumbs: It's running a little warmer at idle (195-200*) than i'd like so i'm gonna try a few things to see if i can drop it down 10-15* or so then it'll be perfect. I suspect the rad is slightly small in cooling capacity for a 540hp 440. The more i read up on this stuff...the more i'm convinced that a cross flow rad is the better choice with a high HP application. Mine is a downflow reproduction dual core aluminum unit...fwiw

I can tell that this rad will be inadequate for my 572 so i'll be rad shopping again this winter...



Ron

Hi Ron and Everyone,

I have a cross flow aluminum radiator now and I tried to observe how fast the water flowed and am not to sure about what I saw.  I had to drain off some coolant just to see anything and then I am not sure about how fast it is flowing.  Keep in mind I have a stock housing so the 440Source issue is not my concern, although I have been thinking about buying an aluminum housing.  My 440 has just always run hot.  I currently have both an electric fan and a stock one and I run them both just to keep it below 200 *.  I have tried every thermostat known to man to, 165, 185, 195, now I have a restrictor ring in there.  If I am stuck in traffic it will get up over 210 consistently.  I am looking real hard at getting a Ford Taurus high output electric fan (3800+ cfm) as I have read good things about them and the price is cheap in comparison to the crazy cost of some of the aftermarket fans.  Anyone else running one of these?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: TexasStroker on August 25, 2009, 02:57:18 PM
A lot of folks seem fond of the HHR fan...Maybe that would help you out.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: my73charger on August 25, 2009, 03:06:05 PM
Quote from: TexasStroker on August 25, 2009, 02:57:18 PM
A lot of folks seem fond of the HHR fan...Maybe that would help you out.

Which one is that?  Do you have a link?

Thanks.

Tim
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: lisiecki1 on August 25, 2009, 03:29:51 PM
Quote from: my73charger on August 25, 2009, 02:45:48 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 25, 2009, 11:11:08 AM
Quote from: TexasStroker on August 24, 2009, 09:28:29 PM
I was taking a dyno vid today and the shop I was at had a new 440Source housing.  It was par with OE cast housings.  I brought it up and they pulled it out of the box, brand new, and it looked fine...the openings were quite large.  

They had one or two housings in the past as described with the small feed holes and sharp 90 degree turn...The unit fresh out of the box was NOT one of the housings causing so much trouble.



That's very interesting. I wonder if they recognized the problem and sourced them from another supplier ? That seems to be the way this company operates.  :P

I had mine out on the highway for a 60 minute run and maintained 3200rpm for the entire time....coolant temp was 180* with a 180* thermostat.  :2thumbs: It's running a little warmer at idle (195-200*) than i'd like so i'm gonna try a few things to see if i can drop it down 10-15* or so then it'll be perfect. I suspect the rad is slightly small in cooling capacity for a 540hp 440. The more i read up on this stuff...the more i'm convinced that a cross flow rad is the better choice with a high HP application. Mine is a downflow reproduction dual core aluminum unit...fwiw

I can tell that this rad will be inadequate for my 572 so i'll be rad shopping again this winter...



Ron

Hi Ron and Everyone,

I have a cross flow aluminum radiator now and I tried to observe how fast the water flowed and am not to sure about what I saw.  I had to drain off some coolant just to see anything and then I am not sure about how fast it is flowing.  Keep in mind I have a stock housing so the 440Source issue is not my concern, although I have been thinking about buying an aluminum housing.  My 440 has just always run hot.  I currently have both an electric fan and a stock one and I run them both just to keep it below 200 *.  I have tried every thermostat known to man to, 165, 185, 195, now I have a restrictor ring in there.  If I am stuck in traffic it will get up over 210 consistently.  I am looking real hard at getting a Ford Taurus high output electric fan (3800+ cfm) as I have read good things about them and the price is cheap in comparison to the crazy cost of some of the aftermarket fans.  Anyone else running one of these?

that fan is a MAJOR air mover....it has a low and high setting also (two sets of wires)  a friend of mine runs one on his 240 race car, i think it would cool my house!
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 25, 2009, 04:26:48 PM
I was just reading about the Taurus fan. I found an article that said it moves up to 4500 CFM. That's a ton, butttttt,,,,, it takes nearly 100 amps draw at start up. Can you say HOLY CRAP?? That would shut down most of our MSD's and waste batteries. Maybe if you were running a 150 amp charging system you could get away with it.

Time to look into the Chevette wagon fan. I'll let you know.. 
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: kcederwall08 on August 25, 2009, 04:51:01 PM
That Taurus fan is origionally what I wanted to use on my car, but it was too big to fit between the rad and the water pump my motor. It's pretty thick and it didn't work for me but it may for you. I'm not sure :shruggy:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: TexasStroker on August 25, 2009, 04:51:29 PM
No link...I'll search for some later though.

I know it is quite popular with some folks on Moparts and in retrofit applications.  I know it moves a lot of air and I don't *think* it pulls as many amps, but I could be wrong.

You can search moparts for it if you like...
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 25, 2009, 05:09:09 PM
I agree. It sounded crazy to me too, but that was what I read. I think they may just mean the initial bang to get the fan going. I know they also have some type of regulator thing for it. I should have copied it.  :icon_smile_blackeye:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: my73charger on August 26, 2009, 07:28:57 AM
I didn't mean to hijack this thread by any means Ron.  :-\  Sorry about that.  I did a little research on that fan and it only pulls up to 100 at startup.  It then pulls about 33 amps constant.  I will need to buy a Bosch relay switch to wire it to.  I want to be able to shut the fan off at will because I like to shut it off before I launch at the track to save power.  I can cut up to 2/10ths off my time at least with the current electric fan by doing this.  I then flip it on after I cross the traps.  Back to aluminum housing talk fellas.....  Any updates on that?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 26, 2009, 09:02:30 AM
Ey-Ca-rumba. 100 Amps is a huge hit. It needs something to soften the start up. I would like to see the proper wiring for that fan and exactly what it is wired to.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: gordo1968charger on August 26, 2009, 11:40:55 AM
i m having doubts about a 440 source stroker kit now :o
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: my73charger on August 26, 2009, 12:01:23 PM
Quote from: Steve P. on August 26, 2009, 09:02:30 AM
Ey-Ca-rumba. 100 Amps is a huge hit. It needs something to soften the start up. I would like to see the proper wiring for that fan and exactly what it is wired to.

I read that besides a relay switch there is a soft start switch that can be purchased through Summit that starts the fan slow and lets it build up to avoid the huge amp pull.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on August 26, 2009, 07:38:33 PM
Finally got a chance to inspect my 440Source housing and it is definitely one of the restricted ones.  I put a call into Mancinis to ask what theirs are like and what they can tell me.  I'll let you know.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 26, 2009, 08:45:39 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 25, 2009, 11:11:08 AM
Quote from: TexasStroker on August 24, 2009, 09:28:29 PM
I was taking a dyno vid today and the shop I was at had a new 440Source housing.  It was par with OE cast housings.  I brought it up and they pulled it out of the box, brand new, and it looked fine...the openings were quite large. 

They had one or two housings in the past as described with the small feed holes and sharp 90 degree turn...The unit fresh out of the box was NOT one of the housings causing so much trouble.



That's very interesting. I wonder if they recognized the problem and sourced them from another supplier ? That seems to be the way this company operates.  :P

I had mine out on the highway for a 60 minute run and maintained 3200rpm for the entire time....coolant temp was 180* with a 180* thermostat.  :2thumbs: It's running a little warmer at idle (195-200*) than i'd like so i'm gonna try a few things to see if i can drop it down 10-15* or so then it'll be perfect. I suspect the rad is slightly small in cooling capacity for a 540hp 440. The more i read up on this stuff...the more i'm convinced that a cross flow rad is the better choice with a high HP application. Mine is a downflow reproduction dual core aluminum unit...fwiw

I can tell that this rad will be inadequate for my 572 so i'll be rad shopping again this winter...



Ron

Ron,
If your not stuck on a cross-flow, you may want to try a downflow from Wizzard Cooling. They are a direct bolt-in with no modifications and can be ordered with electric fans, Aluminum shroud or to accept the conventional plastic OE shroud. This made all the difference on my 572" motor. I had a repro brass/copper core radiator and it just wasn't enough.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: alcusswhen on August 26, 2009, 09:37:21 PM
Quote from: runningman on August 18, 2009, 04:51:07 AM
I have a MP housing on mine but it is also on the stand still.  I will go and take a look at that tonight.

Matt

The MP housing is made the same as the stock iron housing. I've heard enough bad about 440 source not to trade with them. As the old saying goes one gets what one pays for!
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on August 26, 2009, 09:43:53 PM
Given the mad rush of the last few years though to give all manufacturing over to the Chinese and their oh so wonderful quality control standards, I wouldn't be surprised if theMP ones are now being cast over their too.
Edelbrock does their aluminum casting still in the US, do they offer a housing? 

IMPORTANT NOTE:  I am not implying that the MP ones are being made overseas or are inferior.  I am sarcastically commenting that it wouldn't surprise me-nothing more.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 26, 2009, 09:46:15 PM
Sorry guys... I ran these critters to the max and it looks as though the problem lies with differences in pump performance and not the housings.

I used a rig with unrestricted 1-1/2" inlets and outlets, and 1" recirc lines that let the pumps flow to the physical limits of the housings. The housings seem to peak out at about 40 gallons per minute (a flow rate your vehicle will never see due to restrictions in the radiator, thermostat, engine block, hoses, etc). Trying to push the flow rates harder than this resulted in a lot of.... well for lack of a better understood term... Bucking. This information is just trivia of course, but still interesting to note.

That said... I ran the 2 pumps that I had (the stock 8 blade Mopar & 440 source HV unit) on the 3 housings that I had ( the 2 stock Mopar styles {Left & Right}, and the "restricted" 440 source unit), and in each and every case the pumps flowed the same irregardless of the housing they were mounted on. In other words, the stock Mopar pump flowed better than the 440 pump, but it still flowed the same irregardless of the housing. Changing housings had no effect on flow rates.

Note that as the rpm's increased, the 440 source pump started to catch up with the stock Mopar unit, but in the end it was still just a little behind... but not enough to care about.

Ron used a $90 Milodon HV pump on his housing which Milodon claims can flow up to 30% better than the stock unit. Unfortunately, I did not have one of these lying around to test that theory along side the other 2 pumps, so we will have to take Ron at his word when he says that the Milodon can move some water. Ron's word has always been good enough for me so I won't argue the fact.

There would appear to be a considerable difference in performance between one pump and the next, especially at the all important lower end of the rpm scale. This low rpm performance is very important because as we all know, an hot engine idling in traffic is no place for a pump with poor flow characteristics.

So... take it or leave it... that's what I got using the limited equipment at my disposal.

:cheers:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on August 26, 2009, 09:50:49 PM
That of course, is what turbobitt has been saying.  This has been a very very interesting topic I must say.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 26, 2009, 10:10:25 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 26, 2009, 08:45:39 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 25, 2009, 11:11:08 AM
Quote from: TexasStroker on August 24, 2009, 09:28:29 PM
I was taking a dyno vid today and the shop I was at had a new 440Source housing.  It was par with OE cast housings.  I brought it up and they pulled it out of the box, brand new, and it looked fine...the openings were quite large. 

They had one or two housings in the past as described with the small feed holes and sharp 90 degree turn...The unit fresh out of the box was NOT one of the housings causing so much trouble.



That's very interesting. I wonder if they recognized the problem and sourced them from another supplier ? That seems to be the way this company operates.  :P

I had mine out on the highway for a 60 minute run and maintained 3200rpm for the entire time....coolant temp was 180* with a 180* thermostat.  :2thumbs: It's running a little warmer at idle (195-200*) than i'd like so i'm gonna try a few things to see if i can drop it down 10-15* or so then it'll be perfect. I suspect the rad is slightly small in cooling capacity for a 540hp 440. The more i read up on this stuff...the more i'm convinced that a cross flow rad is the better choice with a high HP application. Mine is a downflow reproduction dual core aluminum unit...fwiw

I can tell that this rad will be inadequate for my 572 so i'll be rad shopping again this winter...



Ron

Ron,
If your not stuck on a cross-flow, you may want to try a downflow from Wizzard Cooling. They are a direct bolt-in with no modifications and can be ordered with electric fans, Aluminum shroud or to accept the conventional plastic OE shroud. This made all the difference on my 572" motor. I had a repro brass/copper core radiator and it just wasn't enough.


Thanks TurboBitt....i'd be interested in hearing more about your cooling system. Do you have a link ?


Thanks, Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 26, 2009, 10:25:13 PM
Quote from: Musicman on August 26, 2009, 09:46:15 PM
Sorry guys... I ran these critters to the max and it looks as though the problem lies with differences in pump performance and not the housings.

I used a rig with unrestricted 1-1/2" inlets and outlets, and 1" recirc lines that let the pumps flow to the physical limits of the housings. The housings seem to peak out at about 40 gallons per minute (a flow rate your vehicle will never see due to restrictions in the radiator, thermostat, engine block, hoses, etc). Trying to push the flow rates harder than this resulted in a lot of.... well for lack of a better understood term... Bucking. This information is just trivia of course, but still interesting to note.

That said... I ran the 2 pumps that I had (the stock 8 blade Mopar & 440 source HV unit) on the 3 housings that I had ( the 2 stock Mopar styles {Left & Right}, and the "restricted" 440 source unit), and in each and every case the pumps flowed the same irregardless of the housing they were mounted on. In other words, the stock Mopar pump flowed better than the 440 pump, but it still flowed the same irregardless of the housing. Changing housings had no effect on flow rates.

Note that as the rpm's increased, the 440 source pump started to catch up with the stock Mopar unit, but in the end it was still just a little behind... but not enough to care about.

Ron used a $90 Milodon HV pump on his housing which Milodon claims can flow up to 30% better than the stock unit. Unfortunately, I did not have one of these lying around to test that theory along side the other 2 pumps, so we will have to take Ron at his word when he says that the Milodon can move some water. Ron's word has always been good enough for me so I won't argue the fact.

There would appear to be a considerable difference in performance between one pump and the next, especially at the all important lower end of the rpm scale. This low rpm performance is very important because as we all know, an hot engine idling in traffic is no place for a pump with poor flow characteristics.

So... take it or leave it... that's what I got using the limited equipment at my disposal.

:cheers:


Thanks for the update Mike....that is excellent data !  :2thumbs:

When i did the swap on mine the pump and housings were swapped as units...it would have been nice to try the Milodon pump on the 440 source housing but it's too much a pain in the azz to do on my car.  :P

I know Steve P has been in contact with several aftermarket cooling manufacturers and the general concensus is that a restricted inlet opening is not a favorable design. Maybe we can get him to comment here.   :scratchchin:


I will say that on my engine the higher flow made a big difference in operating temps and the difference in flow as visible to the naked eye was quite dramatic. I've used the Milodon pump on several engines with excellent results so i don't see any reason to switch at this point. I might give an Edelbrock Victor waterpump a try on the 572.


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 26, 2009, 10:55:18 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 26, 2009, 10:10:25 PM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 26, 2009, 08:45:39 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 25, 2009, 11:11:08 AM
Quote from: TexasStroker on August 24, 2009, 09:28:29 PM
I was taking a dyno vid today and the shop I was at had a new 440Source housing.  It was par with OE cast housings.  I brought it up and they pulled it out of the box, brand new, and it looked fine...the openings were quite large. 

They had one or two housings in the past as described with the small feed holes and sharp 90 degree turn...The unit fresh out of the box was NOT one of the housings causing so much trouble.



That's very interesting. I wonder if they recognized the problem and sourced them from another supplier ? That seems to be the way this company operates.  :P

I had mine out on the highway for a 60 minute run and maintained 3200rpm for the entire time....coolant temp was 180* with a 180* thermostat.  :2thumbs: It's running a little warmer at idle (195-200*) than i'd like so i'm gonna try a few things to see if i can drop it down 10-15* or so then it'll be perfect. I suspect the rad is slightly small in cooling capacity for a 540hp 440. The more i read up on this stuff...the more i'm convinced that a cross flow rad is the better choice with a high HP application. Mine is a downflow reproduction dual core aluminum unit...fwiw

I can tell that this rad will be inadequate for my 572 so i'll be rad shopping again this winter...



Ron

Ron,
If your not stuck on a cross-flow, you may want to try a downflow from Wizzard Cooling. They are a direct bolt-in with no modifications and can be ordered with electric fans, Aluminum shroud or to accept the conventional plastic OE shroud. This made all the difference on my 572" motor. I had a repro brass/copper core radiator and it just wasn't enough.


Thanks TurboBitt....i'd be interested in hearing more about your cooling system. Do you have a link ?


Thanks, Ron

This is there website
http://www.wizardcooling.com/
I talked with a guy named Scott. His contact info is
Scott Attig
Wizard Cooling
716-655-6760
I stayed away from the "be cool" since it required moving the battery and chopping/trimming the frame. There may be other bolt-ins that are just as good but I have no experience with them.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: turbobitt on August 26, 2009, 11:05:09 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on August 26, 2009, 09:50:49 PM
That of course, is what turbobitt has been saying.  This has been a very very interesting topic I must say.

I couldn't get around to accepting that the restriction in the housing was greater than the thermostat restriction. The combined flow area of the two restricted ports is larger that the thermostat at full open, or at least I think it is. I am glad that data has driven to a conclusive answer and maybe I'll try another pump on my engine to see if it lowers the temps and makes a change.

BTW, I had another 440 source housing/pump that was never used other than the one I have on the car now that I know works. Well, over the weekend I inspected the ports and it does look a little restrictive. I didn't have a OEM iron to compare it to but I see why it would stirr a concern. Given that there are other housings choices out there, I would look at buying something else just to be safe.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on August 26, 2009, 11:09:41 PM
That's about where I'm at.  I have the 440Source one and it doesn't look good to me.  It's an expensive loss to just walk away from it but not as expensive as an engine.  I'm looking for a different housing and a different pump both.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 27, 2009, 12:11:15 AM
Quote from: turbobitt on August 26, 2009, 10:55:18 PM


This is there website
http://www.wizardcooling.com/
I talked with a guy named Scott. His contact info is
Scott Attig
Wizard Cooling
716-655-6760
I stayed away from the "be cool" since it required moving the battery and chopping/trimming the frame. There may be other bolt-ins that are just as good but I have no experience with them.


Thanks for the link TB....i'm going to give them a serious look.  :2thumbs:


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on August 27, 2009, 12:23:45 AM
After reading Mike's report the comment on 40gpm max through the stock housing peaked my curiosity so i did a little research on electric pumps. Meziere sells 2 pumps for BB Chrysler applications ; 35 gpm & 55 GPM  :scratchchin: The 55 GPM unit is recommended for 650hp + applications or forced induction. While it seems that the stock housing is all done at 40gpm the block and heads are capable of flowing more.

From the Meziere website :

"The standard 35 GPM pump is suitable for normally aspirated engines up to 650HP. Supercharged, turbocharged and high compression, high horsepower applications should use the 55GPM High Flow pump only. This model does not accept heater or bypass hoses as a standard. These may be added at the factory for an additional cost. "


Here is a link to the pump :  http://www.meziere.com/ps-689-0-WP106S16.aspx



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: suntech on August 27, 2009, 12:25:34 AM
QuoteI stayed away from the "be cool" since it required moving the battery and chopping/trimming the frame. There may be other bolt-ins that are just as good but I have no experience with them.

Have you checked out Griffin?? I have one from them, and i think that bolts right in. Looks a hell of a lot better too,
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 27, 2009, 12:26:28 PM
OK... I found ten minutes... time for my comments  :D

Given a choice between the stock Mopar housing and the restricted version of the 440 housing, I would still choose the stock housing simply because it makes me feel better knowing that I have the better of the 2 installed. It's all strictly psychological of course, but I would still feel better about it in my own mind.
Obviously some of these aftermarket aluminum housings (440 source included) are just as nice as the originals... and apparently some of them (like the ones that Ron & I have) are not. That being the case, if I were in the market for a new aluminum pump housing, I would call ahead and notify the manufacture of this issue beforehand, and tell them that this item will be returned if it does not measure up. If they can't accept those terms, then I would move on to the next seller.

Where the electric alternatives are concerned... I have always liked the idea of having an electric water pump up front, but have always shied away from them because of all the stories I've heard about them burning up motors quicker than a jack rabbit on a date.
As far as their advertised flow ratings are concerned… I’m sorry, you might get 55 GPM out of that little bast*** if you stick one end of the pump in a pool, and let it just puke out the other end, but there ain’t no way on gods great earth that thing is going to move 55 gpm through your engines circulatory system.
My rig was pushing water through an unrestricted system with a 42 Pound, Continuous Duty, Industrial, Permanent Magnet DC Motor controlled by a speed controller with built in torque compensation… and it was all I could do to push 40 GPM through 1” ID cross connected tubing’s with 10” radius bends… and your telling me that a little bitty 6 amp 12 volt POS is going to outperform my test rig… I don’t think so. Not to mention the fact that a flow rate that high would push water through the block so frigg’n fast that your thermostat couldn’t possibly keep pace. By the time the dam t-stat opened up and closed again you would have undergone about a dozen complete water exchanges with no cooling cycles. Like most advertising, all that it means to me is that one pump will perform like a stock pump and the other one will perform more like a HV pump… or so they claim.
Don't get me wrong here, I still like the idea of an electric pump, I wish I had one, but moving any volume of water around your block is a lot of work for any motor, let alone a small high rpm motor…  It’s no wonder they have a reputation for burning out real quick, their doing a lot of work. Then of course there is the matter of cost. A good electric pump is not cheap.... but I still like em  :yesnod:

:cheers:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mauve66 on August 27, 2009, 06:36:02 PM
hey Mike,  did we ever determine that your 440Source housing was the same as firefighters'? or possibly a different casting (year, month source) like some may suspect??
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on August 27, 2009, 09:43:04 PM
Mine was just like Ron's... may have even come from the same lot, who knows  :shruggy:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 27, 2009, 09:57:28 PM
I bought mine 2 years ago and it has the "TIP OF ONE FINGER" hole.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: b5blue on August 28, 2009, 02:36:07 AM
Maybe 440 Source should get the tip of your middle finger for a gauge!  :smilielol:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mfr426 on August 28, 2009, 07:05:15 AM
I took my 440Source "combo deal" off just bought a used factory cast iron unit after seeing the restriction for myself. I also got the Milodon HV pump for a bit of added help. I dont like a hot running motor.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: tripleblkr/t on August 28, 2009, 11:16:35 AM
I'm going to change mine out real soon, my car was running around 230 and it was only 65 degrees out.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: vegasmike on August 28, 2009, 07:12:15 PM
Ron, you know I feel your pain. I've been dealing with this for years.. The motor that was in the charger went to the Coronet and I have no problems. That motor just ran hot along with several others motors that were in that car. 2 radiators, 3 housings, 3 different pumps... Personally I don't think the guy who rebuilt the rads knows what he's doing.  :icon_smile_blackeye:  I have no flow, but he tells me different.. Just give me my spoon, right? Cause I'm crazy.....  :P
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 28, 2009, 08:16:56 PM
Mike, how is your flow with the aluminum rad. and electric pump?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: vegasmike on August 28, 2009, 08:21:48 PM
Steve , it flows like it spoda.... The Coronet has the Summit radiator...... Big difference from car to car and this motor is bored 50 over.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 28, 2009, 08:30:16 PM
I read years ago, a story in "Hot Rod" I think, that was all about the late 60's, early 70's B bodies having cooling trouble due to the set back grills. If I remember it was partly told by Richard Petty and crew. I don't think it has anything to do with this subject, exactly, but I thought I would throw it in.

Boy, I just can't wait to get my car together and have all this trouble..  :icon_smile_blackeye:   It's all part of it though......  :shruggy:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: vegasmike on August 28, 2009, 08:34:08 PM
Steve I've been waiting for you to get that car together for years :popcrn:...I should just come out there and do it for ya :icon_smile_big:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on August 28, 2009, 10:54:37 PM
And yet your still in Vegas..... :scratchchin:



Back on subject.... 
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on September 06, 2009, 07:47:25 AM
So the Summit and mancini housings are ok? I kinda was thinking of getting a few things for the next time I rebuild the 440.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on September 06, 2009, 12:06:24 PM
Went to a buddy's shop the other day and saw a 440 Source box on his build shelf. I asked when he got it and opened the box. It has the 440 source logo on it and has the small passenger side hole. He said he's had it about 2 months. He says when the time comes, he will try to hog out some materiel and see how far he can take it.  He then told me he just finished a 493" that has most everything in it from 440 source and made 640HP on the dyno. He said all the guts are 440 Source including crank kit, rods, pistons, stealth heads, (Had to do much work on them), and valve train. I pointed him to a few threads about the rockers and he said he had read them and his customer WANTED them.
We shall see.......
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on September 06, 2009, 01:40:24 PM
The pump housing is not the issue, it was the poor low rpm performance of the 440source pump itself. It performed even worse than a stock pump at low rpm's. Switching to the Milodon HV pump, Ron may have seen as much as a 30% - 40% increase in low rpm flow compared to his original 440 source pump... that's a big difference.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on September 06, 2009, 02:10:34 PM
Hey Mike,  I trust your finding knowing what I do about your background, but I cannot in any way accept that from one side of the outflow to the other it can possibly be anywhere in the ballpark of EVEN.

Put simply: Take one source of water flow and divide it into 2 outlets, one being larger than the other, the one with the easiest path, or larger hole will be the one to flow the most water.  This is the problem I have. The factory cast housing isn't perfect, but much closer to balanced. So in my military mind, #s 1-3-5-7 are being shorted of cooling water.

Did you run a test for balance? Sorry if you posted it and I don't remember, lotttts on my mind lately.   :icon_smile_blackeye:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on September 06, 2009, 03:17:48 PM
No I did not test them to see if they flowed evenly on both sides, but I'm sure your right Steve. One outlet being slightly smaller than the other should make a difference... but then again it may or may not make a difference. It really depends on the rest of the housing, is one side of the housing biased in terms of inlet flow. That is something that would have to be checked out as well.
On the other side of the coin however... Each pump flowed exactly the same on each housing. That being said, if there was a huge difference in flow from one side to the other between housings, then it should have shown up in testing. In other words, the 440 source housing should have flowed less than the Mopar housing, but it didn't.
You also have to remember that both sides are not independant of each other. They may split at the block inlets, but they are reunited again within the pump at the block exit ports, and through the internal recirc port, so pressure is always more or less equal from one side to the other.
Be that as it may... The biggest problem that I have with these stock style pumps and housings is this... Once you reach a certain rpm (and it isn't very high) you are maxed out in terms of "free flow" potential. At this point the pump becomes a parasitic loss, acting like an engine brake that is applied full time. The engine now has to devote more and more horse power to the assembly as the rpm's increase in order to overcome the resistance at the pump. This is where an electric pump has the potential to really shine...
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mick70RR on September 06, 2009, 03:44:06 PM
Quote from: Musicman on September 06, 2009, 01:40:24 PM
The pump housing is not the issue, it was the poor low rpm performance of the 440source pump itself. It performed even worse than a stock pump at low rpm's. Switching to the Milodon HV pump, Ron may have seen as much as a 30% - 40% increase in low rpm flow compared to his original 440 source pump... that's a big difference.

A few weeks ago I swapped my 440 Source pump for a stock cast iron 6 blade pump but left the 440 Source housing fitted. Been driving the car every day since then including a few longish trips and, on average, the engine temp has dropped about 10 degrees. I also think the problem is the 440 Source pump.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on September 06, 2009, 04:55:42 PM
I'm hearing you Mike, but if you do set this test up again sometime, I would love to see the results of the 5-gallon bucket test at EACH port at the same time. I'm no expert, but I don't think the water from each side of the block mixes again until it reaches the water pump on the suction side. Please correct me if I am wrong, ANYONE. I don't want to misrepresent either way. I just really want the nuts and bolts of it all.

One other question. I know you're some what limited with test equipment, but did you by any chance use an amp load meter on each of the tests and at different speeds?

I agree on the electric pump 100%. Especially for racing when you don't have to worry about being a few hundred miles from home when the pump craps out. All local parts stores will have a 440 stock pump in house. Very few will have a new electric pump. Though I believe that is a quality issue too. Or maybe just a "planned obsolescence"  issue.   :scratchchin:
The other end of it is the need for a higher amp alternator when using additional motors. WP, electric fan, A/C etc. It's a give and take and everyone will have needs for one or the other.

Any way around it, great work Mike. We all appreciate your work on this.. Maybe there is room for you on MYTH BUSTERS..  :D
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on September 07, 2009, 04:23:29 PM
Quote from: Steve P. on September 06, 2009, 04:55:42 PM
I'm hearing you Mike, but if you do set this test up again sometime, I would love to see the results of the 5-gallon bucket test at EACH port at the same time.

Steve… If you ran the test with each port flowing into a separate container, then yes I would think that there should be a noticeable difference side to side, at least at some point during the test. Once the free flow volume of the smaller port is reached, that’s when things would start to change.
As I said earlier however, these 2 ports are physically connected together in the discharge region of the pump housing, so each one will have an effect on the other. If one port were flowing drastically better than the other, the difference in head pressure in the t-stat region of the housing would create an imbalance. But again that should have shown up as a difference in flow when switching pumps from one housing to the next.
I can tell you that I did observed the flows through each of the 1" tubing's during the tests, looking for signs of cavitations, etc, and that during that time I did not perceive any noticeable difference in flow... but that still doesn't mean that it wasn't present.

Quote
I'm no expert, but I don't think the water from each side of the block mixes again until it reaches the water pump on the suction side. Please correct me if I am wrong, ANYONE. I don't want to misrepresent either way. I just really want the nuts and bolts of it all.

I think you have it right, just worded wrong…
The suction side of the pump is at the lower radiator hose connection. Water is sucked into the housing through the pump itself and discharged out two different paths through the block. Like a fork in the road, the 2 lower ports of the housing send the pump discharge to the left and right side of the block. The water within the block is then forced out of the block and into the 2 upper ports of the pump housing, where they are reunited once again as a single stream, slamming head on into each other within the t-stat region of the pump housing. There is also a small port within the housing itself connecting the suction & discharge areas of the housing, which acts as a recirc line for the pump.

Quote
One other question. I know you're some what limited with test equipment, but did you by any chance use an amp load meter on each of the tests and at different speeds?

Unfortunately no... I thought about it when I got into the second phase of these tests because I was really curious to see just what the load was at the upper end of the scale. In other words... Just when and where did the pump start to become a parasite on the engine.

When I set up this test, I was looking to answer (1) question, and one question only… Was the apparent flow restriction in the 440 source pump housing really the cause of the problem, or was it the 440 source pump itself? I found the answer to that question, but like any test… I also found that it raised more questions for me than it answered… things that I never really thought about before…. and if I was to do it all over again, I would set it up completely different, so that those questions could be answered. These are archaic systems that were designed to work “well enough” under typical average driving conditions, with a stock build, and that’s about it. Getting these things to work correctly on today’s high output builds, running on that limp wristed fairy water they sell as gasoline today, which generates even more heat… is nothing short of a frigg’n miracle really. :lol:

Quote
I agree on the electric pump 100%. Especially for racing when you don't have to worry about being a few hundred miles from home when the pump craps out. All local parts stores will have a 440 stock pump in house. Very few will have a new electric pump. Though I believe that is a quality issue too. Or maybe just a "planned obsolescence"  issue.   :scratchchin:
The other end of it is the need for a higher amp alternator when using additional motors. WP, electric fan, A/C etc. It's a give and take and everyone will have needs for one or the other.

Any way around it, great work Mike. We all appreciate your work on this.. Maybe there is room for you on MYTH BUSTERS..  :D

There are 2 styles of electric pumps that I am aware of… those that bolt to your existing stock pump housing, and those that come with their own custom housing.
Myself, I think I would opt for the one that bolts to the stock housing and carry a spare, or a rebuild kit at all times. :lol:

Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: BrianShaughnessy on September 08, 2009, 07:50:36 AM
Quote from: greenpigs on September 06, 2009, 07:47:25 AM
So the Summit and mancini housings are ok? I kinda was thinking of getting a few things for the next time I rebuild the 440.

I've had a Mancini housing on for years...  along with a CAT pump.     No problems.   Go figure.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on September 12, 2009, 12:35:59 PM
For those who have not had the opportunity to see this restricted housing for themselves, here are a couple of side-by-side's.
As you can see, it's not a pretty site :o  The restriction in this area of the port acts like an orifice in a pipe rather than a actual reduction in pipe diameter, so the effect is somewhat minimalized "apparently"... Furthermore, it appears that not all of the manufactures housings suffer from this blight. Nonetheless, I would still not recommend this housing to anyone, unless they purchased it from the manufacture with an understanding that it would be returned if found defective in this way.

Obviously, the stock housing is on the left ;D


Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: bull on September 13, 2009, 06:45:44 PM
I'm kind of late to the party here but I was just thinking that there's one other factor I haven't seen mentioned yet and that's radiation. While the 440 Source housing might not restrict flow (one might argue that no water pump can pump fast enough to inundate the housing orifices to the point of true restriction) a larger area in which the coolant can flow will, in theory, radiate more heat away from the engine than it would inside a more restricted area. While the flow volume might not be restricted the water itself is contained inside a smaller area with thicker walls, smaller orifices, etc. However, we know that aluminum does a better job of eliminating heat than iron so it might be a wash. I don't know, just my :Twocents:.

At any rate, that's a helluva difference in orifice sizes above. :o Thanks for doing your tests.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on September 16, 2009, 08:23:01 AM
Here's one for future reference... This is the 440 Source housing (left) next to a Mancini housing. Not only is the Mancini housing less restricted, it is absolutely cavernous by comparison. :o

 
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on September 16, 2009, 08:36:30 AM
Is that a fairly current Mancini housing?  I tried to get some info from them on this topic confirming that they were still using that housing and hadn't recently followed the mad mad rush to all things Cheap and China but they never responded.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on September 16, 2009, 09:00:40 AM
Yes, that is a brand new Mancini housing :yesnod: As I said before, this port is huge compared to the one on the 440 Source housing. Is it as large as the original Mopar casting? Just looking at it, I would say no, but it is extremely close. Then again it may have been done this way on purpose for balance between the ports  :shruggy: I'm not going to set up a test rig to test the theory, but I believe that balance is what both manufactures were shooting for in their designs here, and this is the reason the smaller port is found on this side of the pump in the aftermarket castings.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Chatt69chgr on September 16, 2009, 07:26:28 PM
I just got my new Mancini housing and pump today.  I concur with Musicman's description of the housing.  The pump that comes with their combo housing/pump deal is their own.  They told me it is virtually identical to the Milodon pump.  It has 6 vanes with the metal piece welded to the back and the pump housing itself is also aluminum.  This combo pack also comes with a steel Mopar brand chrome water neck.  I have a billet aluminum one of these so won't use it on this build.  I also got the Milodon high volume 180 degree thermostat.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: bull on September 16, 2009, 09:20:21 PM
Quote from: Chatt69chgr on September 16, 2009, 07:26:28 PM
I just got my new Mancini housing and pump today.  I concur with Musicman's description of the housing.  The pump that comes with their combo housing/pump deal is their own.  They told me it is virtually identical to the Milodon pump.  It has 6 vanes with the metal piece welded to the back and the pump housing itself is also aluminum.  This combo pack also comes with a steel Mopar brand chrome water neck.  I have a billet aluminum one of these so won't use it on this build.  I also got the Milodon high volume 180 degree thermostat.

Is that the one for $160?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hpmike on September 16, 2009, 11:08:25 PM
Quote from: Chatt69chgr on September 16, 2009, 07:26:28 PM
I just got my new Mancini housing and pump today.  I concur with Musicman's description of the housing.  The pump that comes with their combo housing/pump deal is their own.  They told me it is virtually identical to the Milodon pump.  It has 6 vanes with the metal piece welded to the back and the pump housing itself is also aluminum.  This combo pack also comes with a steel Mopar brand chrome water neck.  I have a billet aluminum one of these so won't use it on this build.  I also got the Milodon high volume 180 degree thermostat.

They ought to stop selling those chrome water necks... They are a low quality, leaking POS.  Otherwise all good.

MB
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Chatt69chgr on September 17, 2009, 08:42:53 AM
Yep.  $159
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Corellian Corvette on September 30, 2009, 02:01:25 AM
Just to be 100% clear - you got the MANCINI aluminum pump and confirmed the passages are OK? Not the Mopar one from Mancini?

Are the housing bolts properly alligned on this one?

I have this same aluminum water pump and I'm GLAD I found this thread! New housing/pump getting ordered tomorrow!
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on September 30, 2009, 07:47:38 AM
Yes, that's correct, this was the Mancini housing, not the Mopar housing sold by Mancicni :cheers:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Corellian Corvette on September 30, 2009, 10:52:24 PM
Thanks - just ordered everything from Mancini. No use taking the risk for $160...
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on October 02, 2009, 08:28:34 AM
Just an update ; I purchased the Mancini Racing housing and pump at the Monster Mopar show and am happy to report that both pieces are very nice !

The housing has generous water passages just like the stock housing. The waterpump looks identical to my Milodon HV pump with an anti cavitation plate and 6 blade impeller.  :icon_smile_big:

I would have no probelm using either of these pieces and will be doing so on the new big cube stroker.  :2thumbs:



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on October 02, 2009, 09:17:51 AM
If I'm not mistaken, Mancini does give you the option to purchase the pump and housing package WITHOUT the junky chrome water neck they just don't promote that fact very well.  They must have gotten a hell of a deal on those things at some point? :P
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Corellian Corvette on October 02, 2009, 11:58:44 AM
They do, actually. You can get one with the billet water neck (which is what I did)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Hot_Rodder on October 02, 2009, 07:01:58 PM
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/hopupa.html (http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/hopupa.html)
MANCINI - "B/RB" HIGH VOL. WATER PUMP / HOUSING PACKAGE - BILLET WATER NECK
We have packaged up a Mancini Racing high volume aluminum water pump and aluminum housing with Mancini Billet water neck.
$189.95
MRE6900KAH

This would be the one to go with I guess....
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on October 02, 2009, 07:06:37 PM
Or if you don't need a new neck for the housing you could order the Mancini pump and housing separately for a total of 169.90.  It all works. :icon_smile_big:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Chatt69chgr on October 02, 2009, 09:30:04 PM
The Mancini Racing pump and housing is what I recently ordered and received.  I already had a billet thermostat housing but would have ordered the combo with that item just to have an extra if I had realized it was available.  I concur with firefighter 3931 as far as the description of the housing and pump.  I also ordered the Milodon HV thermostat.  Should have ordered the gaskets for housing to block since I ended up having to go to two parts places to find them.  Everyone locally had the pump to housing and thermostat housing gaskets.  Glad we have this component nailed down now.  Sure would like to have the $100 back that 440Source got from me for their pump and housing but I pretty much know they will do nothing in this regard.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: bull on November 26, 2009, 03:47:34 PM
Summit sells a high volume water pump with an anti-cavitation plate for $64 but it's iron instead of aluminum. FWIW.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFF-1317NC/?image=large

I'm either going to get this one or the Milodon but I'm going to reuse my stock housing.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: bull on November 27, 2009, 05:38:42 PM
Hey, I was just looking at some water pumps on the Napa and AutoZone sites and both had 8-blade impellors like the originals but no anti-cavitation plates. I wonder if they'd be considered high volume?

Addendum: I was just taking a long, hard look at the 440 Source parts compared to Milodon/Mancini and OE and I have to say not only is the 440 Source pump design monumentally inadequate (it almost looks as if it should be turning counter-clockwise to work right) I actually think the OE design is superior to the Summit and Mancini pumps. The 440 Source pump/housing used together looks like it would be a disaster but I have to say the pump is probably the weaker of the two, and that's saying a lot. However, if you look at the cavern behind the plate on the Milodon/Mancini pump it's no wonder they need an anti-cavitation plate, and since the plate it welded directly to the impellors there'e still a gap between the plate back and the cavern. The OE pumps do not have that cavern as they are flush cast design behind the impellors as well as two more blades (8 instead of 6). I think I'm going to grab one of the following OE pumps from Napa or Autozone because I don't see the advantage to the Mancini-style pump. Mancini's housings look to be very nice but aside from the weight savings I don't see a difference between them and OE.

http://napaonline.com/Search/Detail.aspx?A=WP_58173_0131284113&An=599001+101968+50020+2020008

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/parts/partsProduct.jsp?skuDescription=Duralast+New+/+Water+Pump&categoryDisplayName=Climate+Control&fromString=search&itemIdentifier=61161_0_0_5281&productId=61161&sortType=&parentId=52-0&filterByKeyWord=water+pump&isSearchByPartNumber=false&navValue=15200095&categoryNValue=15299999&fromWhere=&itemId=95-0&displayName=Water+Pump&store=2236&searchText=water+pump&brandName=Duralast+New

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/parts/partsProduct.jsp?skuDescription=Valucraft+/+Water+Pump&categoryDisplayName=Climate+Control&fromString=search&itemIdentifier=535467_0_0_&productId=535467&sortType=&parentId=52-0&filterByKeyWord=water+pump&isSearchByPartNumber=false&navValue=15200095&categoryNValue=15299999&fromWhere=&itemId=95-0&displayName=Water+Pump&store=2236&searchText=water+pump&brandName=Valucraft
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mauve66 on November 28, 2009, 06:36:18 PM
when i click on the links it takes me to a 2002 ford focus ?????????????
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: bull on November 28, 2009, 07:44:30 PM
Huh? Well, those friggin' search links don't work half the time anyway. The Autozone links work fine but the napa link doesn't.

At any rate I did get one thing figured out today, at least I think I did, regarding those anti-cavitation plates. Seems the only pumps that run the risk of cavitating are the aluminum ones. Every iron pump I've seen is flush behined the impellors and every aluminum pump I've seen (with the exception of the POS 440 Source pump) has a cavern behind the impellors. By the same token every aluminum pump I've seen has six impellor blades and every iron one I've seen has eight. Right now I'm having a hard time believing that any aftermarket aluminum pump is going to push more volume than an OE pump.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 03:05:21 PM
Overheating ? Pump Housings ? Ha ! Cornfused ? You ain't seen nothing yet !!!

Stumbled onto this Forum. I'm in a FMC Motorhome group. The 1973-76 FMC MH has a rear mounted 440 Chrysler engine in a pusher setup. It has a reverse flow fan that is supposed to get air from the side, push it into the shroud, then it goes thru the radiator and out the back grill. Yea, sure ! FMCers have been chasing overheating problems for years.

We got thinking about all the different pumps that have appeared over the years, and decided to run a test to see if there was any difference in them. We also decided to see if there was any difference in the pump housings that have a machined register for the T-stat to expand into, compared to the same one that just has a simple hole under the T-stat.

Used a precision Rotameter to measure TOTAL coolant system flow in gallons per minute verse engine RPM, for a complete 440 engine/radiator. Changed only the pump for each test. I'll try to post the pics and test results with several entries. I don't want to get into a big discussion. The data speaks for itself. Draw you own comparisons and conclusions. Think you will find it interesting.
Press ON, Lou.(//)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 03:15:55 PM
FMC 440 Water Pump Tests.
Bolted OPEN Mopar "high flow" Thermostat, bought from Milodon.
2nd pic is of the two different MOPAR pump housings. The both have inlet on Passenger (Car) side.
One has a fancy machined well that the T-stat expands into. The one with the simple hole is internally the same as the MOPAR pump housing that has the short inlet on the Driver (car) side. We did NOT test the short neck housing, I don't think the short neck housing flows any more or less that the long neck one with the simple hole. Lou.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 03:36:57 PM
FMC 440 Water Pump Test
Test Set-Up is a 4-barrel 440 in a Pace (?) MH. Good engine. Grill, radiator, and fan were removed and sold. Radiator used as out of a full size 73 (?) Chrysler.
Couple of pics of the 5 to 60 GPM Rotameter. High $ ! Fittings are 1.75" straight pipe. We used 1.5" ID PVC and similar 1.5 and 2.0 " radiator hose for the coolant plumbing. Same WP housing and T-stat used throughout. Changed ONLY the water pump cartridge. Lou.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 04:18:03 PM
FMC 440 Water Pump Test
Can't attach a spreadsheet, damn ! There were 10 tests. They are numbered 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9,10,12. The pumps in test 8 and 11 leaked and no data was taken. Pumps were tested at 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000, and 3500 RPM. The flow meter has a 5 to 60 GPM range. Flow below 5 GPM is unreliable, so some of the data will be <5, which means that the flow was less than 5 GPM.
You might want to make a spreadsheet type page, handwritten will work. Paper sideways. down the left side RPM. Across the top, 10 boxes spread out across. In each of the top boxes across the top, put Test #___, Impeller Diam ___, # of Blades ___, Pump Type ___, Housing Type ___. I'll give the Test Data (Flow in GPM at each RPM) for each of the 10 tests and the fill in data about pump impeller diam, # blades, etc, as well as an individual picture of each pump tested. The Test Data and pump ID pictures will take a little while to Post. Don't worry about coming back till you see PUMP TEST #12. Stand by . . . Lou.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 05:55:25 PM
Pump Test #1 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 4.375", 8 blades, stamped sheet metal, tested with Machined T-stat well housing.
RPM         GPM
1000        14.5
1500        18.5
2000        23.0
2500        29.0
3000        28.0
3500        27.5

This is the "stock" water pump that came on the 440 Chrysler used in the FMC MH. It has a long bearing housing that gets two bearings, and is greasable. We do not know of any other application that has this same water pump. Lou.
(//)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 06:00:11 PM
Pump Test #2 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 3.890", 6 blades, Hi-swirl aluminum casting, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000        <5
1500         7.0
2000        16.0
2500        20.0
3000        25.0
3500        29.5

This is the new and improved impeller style. Does the flow continue to increase ? I do not know.
Lou.
(//)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 06:05:40 PM
Pump Test #3 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 4.392", 8 straight blades, cast Brass, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (Same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000         7.0
1500        17.0
2000        23.0
2500        29.5
3000        36.5
3500        37.0

This is a MOPAR Marine water pump. It is for rotation in either direction. Lou.



Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 06:09:40 PM
Pump Test #4 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 4.332", 10 blades, cast Iron, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (Same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000         6.0
1500        16.0
2000        21.0
2500        26.5
3000        31.0
3500        31.5

Bought this on E-bay. Do not know what application other than B/RB. Lou.

Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 06:13:39 PM
Pump Test #5 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 3.505", 6 blades, stamped sheet metal, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (Same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000         <5
1500         7.0
2000        17.0
2500        21.0
3000        27.0
3500        32.0

Simplest of them all. Smallest diameter of them all. Lou.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 06:17:18 PM
Pump Test #6 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 3.890", 8 blades, stamped sheet metal, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (Same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000         <5
1500        14.0
2000        19.0
2500        25.0
3000        30.0
3500        32.0

Nothing special. Lou.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 06:24:02 PM
Pump Test #7 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 4.367", 10 blades, Plastic with reverse curved blades, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (Same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000         7.0
1500        17.0
2000        22.0
2500        28.0
3000        32.0
3500        31.5

Great surface finish on this PLASTIC impeller that has the blades curving the opposite direction of typical CCW (sitting in the Driver's seat) pump direction. Compare with Test #10 which is same plastic impeller with the blades curved the "correct (?)" way for CCW rotation. Lou.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 06:32:50 PM
Pump Test #9 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 4.380", 8 blades, cast Iron, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (Same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000        15.5
1500        20.0
2000        26.0
2500        33.0
3000        30.0
3500        30.0

This is an early Hemi water pump that I cut down to fit the 440 water pump housing. There was enough metal in the bearing housing to still get the centering register lip, but I had to elongate the 4 mount holes inward for the smaller bolt circle on the 440 pump housing. It was the only 8 vaned cast Iron pump I could find at the time. Lou.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 06:35:39 PM
Pump Test #10 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 4.367", 10 blades, Plastic with forward curved blades, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (Same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000         7.0
1500        18.0
2000        25.0
2500        32.0
3000        29.0
3500        29.0

Great surface finish on this PLASTIC impeller. Compare with Test #7 which is same plastic impeller with the blades curved the opposite way for CCW rotation. Lou.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 06:52:21 PM
Pump Test #12 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 4.375", 8 blades, stamped sheet metal, tested with housing that has simple hole under the T-stat.
RPM         GPM
1000        18.0
1500        23.5
2000        33.0
2500        28.0
3000        28.0
3500        28.0

This Test shows the difference in the passage under the T-stat in the two different WP Housings. This data should be compared directly with Test #1 Data. Test #1 (and all the other tests except this Test #12) used the housing on the right in the picture. This Test #12 was done with the same pump/impeller as used in Test #1, but used the housing on the left in the picture.  Lou.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: hemi354az on November 29, 2009, 07:29:53 PM
FMC 440 Water Pump Test
While the absolute value of the flow in GPM may be questionable, the DIFFERENCE in the flow between all these different pumps is correct. They all flow within 3 or 4 GPM of each other at 3500 RPM, except for the Marine impeller ! Surprise, surprise. There is considerable difference in flow rates at the lower RPMs. Which one do you want for your street driven engine and which for your race car ? All things are a compromise.

I'll not bore you with other obvious comparisons and conclusions (# blades ? Impeller Diameter ? Cast or stamped metal or even plastic impellers ? Rotation ? Curved or straight blades ?).
Perhaps the most significant point is that the TOTAL system is driven by the PUMP. There are lots of other "pinch" points throughout the system (ever look at the head gasket holes that return water to the pump among the different Brands ?). You might want to look for the US Army Handbook of Cooling Systems for Military Vehicles. The HT 361 Chrysler used in the first M113 APCs had an 80 GPM water pump on it. That engine was later replaced by a DD 6V-71. But that engine was bored and stroked into the HT413 which was Chrysler's true Industrial Engine. It is not the same as the car 413. I am modifying my old FMC Motorhome 440 engine. It is getting HT413 heads, exhaust manifolds, and water pump, along with a modified, for water heating under the carb as used in the cast iron HT413 intake manifold, aluminum intake manifold. I'll let you know how it works out when I go from here in Aridzona to the FMC Rally in Nebraska next June.
Hope these water pump tests were useful . . . Press ON, Lou.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: tan top on November 29, 2009, 07:35:15 PM
 :o  thats some intresting  tests going on !!  :scratchchin:
pump in test 3 looks about the best  :scratchchin:  , thinking though on a car wit air moving through the radiator at speed , might over cool the motor , might be talking rubbish  here , but would be good to figure out a pump blade design , that says moves say  

28 gpm at 600 - 800 rpm
30 gpm at 1000 - 2500 rpm

anyway thanks for posting this stuff Lou makes for intresting reading !!  :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :coolgleamA: :popcrn:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mauve66 on November 29, 2009, 10:13:46 PM
thats pretty cool to see, looks like none but the marine pump really move water below 1000 rpm which is where alot of overheating takes place while sitting at a light or in traffic
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: bull on November 30, 2009, 12:18:04 AM
Quote from: mauve66 on November 29, 2009, 10:13:46 PM
thats pretty cool to see, looks like none but the marine pump really move water below 1000 rpm which is where alot of overheating takes place while sitting at a light or in traffic

That's not what I'm seeing; not exactly anyway. Looks to me like the stock 440 pump in test #1 has excellent flow between 1000 and 2500 rpm. The marine pump (test #3) starts lower and increases exponentially as the rpms go up whereas the stocker drops off after 2500 rpms. You're getting twice the volume at 1000 rpms with the stock pump as with the marine pump and I'd venture to guess you'd spend most of your driving time between 800 and 2500 rpms, even at a drag race.

Test #1 stock
RPM         GPM
1000        14.5
1500        18.5
2000        23.0
2500        29.0
3000        28.0
3500        27.5

Test #3 marine
RPM         GPM
1000         7.0
1500        17.0
2000        23.0
2500        29.5
3000        36.5
3500        37.0

What's interesting is that the other stock pump in test #6 does not have near the volume of the pump in test 1, apparently since the diameter is so much smaller. Fortunately the stock pump that was on my 383 is the same diameter as the test #1 pump so it seems my assumptions were correct: the stock pumps aren't too shabby. And those are some pretty crappy low rpm numbers on that 440 Source-style pump (#2) as we've already concluded by suspicion. IMO you don't stand a chance when you've got that 440 Source pump coupled with the 440 Source housing. I'd like to see some test results on those aftermarket high volume, six blade aluminum pumps too.

One other issue I'd like to raise. There is a point to where you are getting too much coolant flow through an engine and you've bypassed the true cooling efficiency, ie. the water is moving too fast to efficiently cool the metal it's passing. What is that point?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on November 30, 2009, 02:27:49 AM
Good point Bull, but the answer lies in everything in "YOUR" car, area and driving habits. The pisser is that what works for you in your application may not for someone in MY application. I'm at sea level and running a slightly modified motor with a shroud, aluminum rad and an electric fan. You might be all stock.. I may feel the need for drag radials where someone else is running a bone stock smog 440 and can't turn a skinny bias ply. Just too many variables. Put simply I want all the cooling I can get at my normal driving RPM. I run a 4:10 gear with 28 inch tall tires in a hot and humid area and sometimes at 60 mile per hour for miles.

The one thing everyone seams to forget is there is a VALVE in line that STOPS water from flowing if it's too cold. Your T-stat.  In my mind I want the best cooling I can get and a great valve to control the temp. I do get where you are headed though. A large volume of water through a small rad. will not cool very efficiently. It needs time to cool in the rad.  and marine engines are not stuck with the very small amount of cooling water we are. My own opinion is that something in the way of stock is great for most road driven motors. If the HP is raised a long way from stock the cooling system needs to be made larger also. If it's a drag only set up you are only driving the car hard for 1/4 mile...

I may be making this sound simple. I know there are many trains of thought on this and most are valid, but water pressure impacting the interior of the block is huge and the pump that makes that happen is where I would be looking..

For guys that idle for 5 minutes at every light you surely don't want a 440 source type pump. Racing should be good but not sitting at lights.. For that you need a large volume at idle pump...

I am very happy to see those numbers on the MARINE CCW/CW pump.  I have a little something up my sleeve for that..  :D

Thanks Lou. Great work. Please do let us know how the real world treats your testing...
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: bull on November 30, 2009, 01:19:32 PM
I understand there are variables and lots of them and we have no way of covering them all. My basic premise though is to say that the stock water pumps are not inadequate as many people assume or have been led to believe. Like I said, I'd like to see the numbers on the six-blade aftermarket pumps that are frequently advertised as being better than stock by 30%.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: defiance on November 30, 2009, 03:45:32 PM
WOW there's a lot of info building up in this thread :D
So from the look of musicman's tests plus hemi354az's work, it appears that the "cyclone" style impellers - at least in the form currently available - are generally extremely low flowing at low RPM, and this is likely the culprit in Ron's case.  Is that what everyone else is getting out of this as well?

I've got a 440source housing and pump on mine, but I haven't driven it enough to really put any stress on the cooling system yet.  Based on what I'm seeing here I think I'll replace the pump (which is a pretty easy swap anyway), but leave the housing on there (which would be a fairly major ordeal to swap).
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on November 30, 2009, 09:26:56 PM
That is what I'm reading for sure. 

Now I want to see what style impeller is on the electric pumps and at what speed do they run......   :think:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: bull on November 30, 2009, 10:20:44 PM
Quote from: Steve P. on November 30, 2009, 09:26:56 PM
That is what I'm reading for sure. 

Now I want to see what style impeller is on the electric pumps and at what speed do they run......   :think:

I've heard from a couple people that the electric pumps often run too fast and when it comes to coolant flow there can be "too much of a good thing."
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on November 30, 2009, 10:29:45 PM
I think a Mancini aluminum housing and my stock pump are good enough, for me at least.

**EDIT**

I got the Mancini aluminum housing a few weeks ago and after a good fingering, I think it has plenty of open area.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mauve66 on December 01, 2009, 06:13:09 PM
Quote from: bull on November 30, 2009, 12:18:04 AM
Quote from: mauve66 on November 29, 2009, 10:13:46 PM
thats pretty cool to see, looks like none but the marine pump really move water below 1000 rpm which is where alot of overheating takes place while sitting at a light or in traffic

That's not what I'm seeing; not exactly anyway. Looks to me like the stock 440 pump in test #1 has excellent flow between 1000 and 2500 rpm. The marine pump (test #3) starts lower and increases exponentially as the rpms go up whereas the stocker drops off after 2500 rpms. You're getting twice the volume at 1000 rpms with the stock pump as with the marine pump and I'd venture to guess you'd spend most of your driving time between 800 and 2500 rpms, even at a drag race.

Test #1 stock
RPM         GPM
1000        14.5
1500        18.5
2000        23.0
2500        29.0
3000        28.0
3500        27.5

Test #3 marine
RPM         GPM
1000         7.0
1500        17.0
2000        23.0
2500        29.5
3000        36.5
3500        37.0

What's interesting it that the other stock pump in test #6 does not have near the volume of the pump in test 1, apparently since the diameter is so much smaller. Fortunately the stock pump that was on my 383 is the same diameter as the test #1 pump so it seems my assumptions were correct: the stock pumps aren't too shabby. And those are some pretty crappy low rpm numbers on that 440 Source-style pump (#2) as we've already concluded by suspicion. IMO you don't stand a chance when you've got that 440 Source pump coupled with the 440 Source housing. I'd like to see some test results on those aftermarket high volume, six blade aluminum pumps too.

One other issue I'd like to raise. There is a point to where you are getting too much coolant flow through an engine and you've bypassed the true cooling efficiency, ie. the water is moving too fast to efficiently cool the metal it's passing. What is that point?

your right, boy i sure flubbed that one up, i got confused when scrolling the screen up and down, thanks for the correction
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 1970Moparmann on May 07, 2010, 02:21:53 PM
Well..... I've been having heating issues with my engine, so I haven't even been able to get it on the road yet.  Took off the 440Source water pump housing and sure enough, I got one of the bad ones!  What a crappy design! :RantExplode:  Putting a new Mancini one on it today and will see what the difference is like.

Thanks a ton Ron for posting this!   :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on May 07, 2010, 03:12:17 PM
Wow Ron, you put a lot of time and effort into that :2thumbs:

Thanks posting all that great information, it's deffinately a welcome addition to the thread. The more factual information we can gather the better.

:cheers:


By the way... this is the impeller design of the electric pump that I installed on my Mancini housing. The pump is manufactured by PRP (Philadelphia Racing Products) and sold by FBO.

Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: broncobra on May 12, 2010, 06:39:02 AM
Quote from: Musicman on August 20, 2009, 04:45:37 PM
The point that Ron was initially trying to make was that as long as the Thermostat is working, and the water pump is circulating some amount of water through the system... the engine may never overheat on a dyno because the dyno uses an efficient water cooled heat exchanger for cooling and not an inefficient natural ambient air cooled system, like those found under the hood of your car.

Hence, the problem may never be seen on a dyno, but may show up rather quickly once the engine is installed in the vehicle.

Quote
The thermostat would seem be the bottleneck since even with the ports size being small wiould stil outflow the one common t-stat.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but the fact remains that Ron's problem went away when he changed out the housing, the t-stat remained the same from one housing to the next.

The problem I see in my housing is the fact that the ports themselves do not appear to have very good flow characteristics, as well as being small in size.

By the way, I have over 30 years experience designing, building, engineering and operating US Navy Nuclear Powered Submarines. It's my job to engineer, test, operate and troubleshoot all forms of complex systems, Mechanical & Electrical, many of which use various forms of heat transfer systems.

Sounds like a simple case of miscommunication, no offense intended or taken. Happens all the time on these forums...

:cheers:


Not to belittle you or discount you, but how come we have no nuclear powered Charger yet? What's the hold up, man? 30 YEARS! The Charger is older than that, it deserves your complete design knowledge. Think of the Chebbie envy. :drool5:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: broncobra on May 12, 2010, 07:19:06 AM
Quote from: Musicman on August 27, 2009, 12:26:28 PM
OK... I found ten minutes... time for my comments  :D

Given a choice between the stock Mopar housing and the restricted version of the 440 housing, I would still choose the stock housing simply because it makes me feel better knowing that I have the better of the 2 installed. It's all strictly psychological of course, but I would still feel better about it in my own mind.
Obviously some of these aftermarket aluminum housings (440 source included) are just as nice as the originals... and apparently some of them (like the ones that Ron & I have) are not. That being the case, if I were in the market for a new aluminum pump housing, I would call ahead and notify the manufacture of this issue beforehand, and tell them that this item will be returned if it does not measure up. If they can't accept those terms, then I would move on to the next seller.

Where the electric alternatives are concerned... I have always liked the idea of having an electric water pump up front, but have always shied away from them because of all the stories I've heard about them burning up motors quicker than a jack rabbit on a date.
As far as their advertised flow ratings are concerned... I'm sorry, you might get 55 GPM out of that little bast*** if you stick one end of the pump in a pool, and let it just puke out the other end, but there ain't no way on gods great earth that thing is going to move 55 gpm through your engines circulatory system.
My rig was pushing water through an unrestricted system with a 42 Pound, Continuous Duty, Industrial, Permanent Magnet DC Motor controlled by a speed controller with built in torque compensation... and it was all I could do to push 40 GPM through 1" ID cross connected tubing's with 10" radius bends... and your telling me that a little bitty 6 amp 12 volt POS is going to outperform my test rig... I don't think so. Not to mention the fact that a flow rate that high would push water through the block so frigg'n fast that your thermostat couldn't possibly keep pace. By the time the dam t-stat opened up and closed again you would have undergone about a dozen complete water exchanges with no cooling cycles. Like most advertising, all that it means to me is that one pump will perform like a stock pump and the other one will perform more like a HV pump... or so they claim.
Don't get me wrong here, I still like the idea of an electric pump, I wish I had one, but moving any volume of water around your block is a lot of work for any motor, let alone a small high rpm motor...  It's no wonder they have a reputation for burning out real quick, their doing a lot of work. Then of course there is the matter of cost. A good electric pump is not cheap.... but I still like em  :yesnod:

:cheers:

That should be be pretty close to true, because of the rule of hydraulics, you can only pump 20 GPM thru a 1/2" line if I remember correctly. So that stands to reason. Thank you for taking your time and effort to check this out for everybody.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on May 12, 2010, 08:06:57 AM
Quote from: broncobra on May 12, 2010, 06:39:02 AM
How come we have no nuclear powered Charger yet? What's the hold up, man?

What... You don't have one of the Mr Fusion units on your car yet :D

Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: broncobra on May 12, 2010, 09:19:48 AM
Quote from: bull on November 30, 2009, 01:19:32 PM
I understand there are variables and lots of them and we have no way of covering them all. My basic premise though is to say that the stock water pumps are not inadequate as many people assume or have been led to believe. Like I said, I'd like to see the numbers on the six-blade aftermarket pumps that are frequently advertised as being better than stock by 30%.
I totally agree with you Bull. There was an article a few issues back in I think Popular Hot Rodding, where they tested oil pumps. OEM, High volume, and High Capacity. The stock units were almost spec for spec the same, except in a very, very few high all out race capacity, the same as these high dollar aftermarket pieces. You'd be money ahead if you used a stock pump and maybe an accumulator. I think the same thing is going on here with the water pumps, and probably a lot of times with the fuel pumps. Coils and ignitiojn systems are also in the same boat. 99% of people don't need all this fancy high dollar shit. The factory already spent millions of dollars testing and perfecting the stuff available, and the factory engineers would be able to guide you better to high performance stuff (mopar performance) than some aftermarket commpany that just wants to make some money. Are there exceptions? Hell yes. XV motorsports comes to mind. Have you seen their testing videos? For the majority of people looking for an upgrade, a LOT of the stuff on the market is just overkill and bullshit dollars wasted for bragging rights. That stock water pump specs looked pretty damn good, compared to all the others. Even with a bigger motor and all the billet goodies, it still seems to outperform the "upgrade" chineese parts. I think for a lot of the parts on my next build, I will stick to what the Mopar gurus reccomend in "Big Block 'B-RB' Engines book, or a book by Andy F on stroking engines that I haven't bought yet. No matter how big a coil you have, the engine is only going to draw what it needs. Not what the coil is advertised to deliver. Sometimes stock can't be beat. I realize there is room for improvement in a lot of areas, but spend your money where the parts matter. Aluminum rocker arms on the street is a joke, and a huge waste of money, no vacuum advance on the street is a waste of money, etc. Do research. Don't buy something just because the mag tells you to, or your buddies think it's cool.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: broncobra on May 12, 2010, 09:37:45 AM
Quote from: Musicman on May 12, 2010, 08:06:57 AM
Quote from: broncobra on May 12, 2010, 06:39:02 AM
How come we have no nuclear powered Charger yet? What's the hold up, man?

What... You don't have one of the Mr Fusion units on your car yet :D


OHHHhhh... I WANT! I actually don't have a Charger at the moment, I have it's granddaddy, the 67 Coronet. Maybe I should really freak people out and put the four buckets in  my Coronet. Call it a Chargernet, or a Coronarger.  (I've had 2 Chargers), but I am putting a Charger hideaway headlight grill on it to blur the lines. Thanks for all the trouble and time you went through to check all these issues out with the water pump/housing issues and saving me money.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 1970Moparmann on May 15, 2010, 07:37:57 AM
Quote from: 1970Moparmann on May 07, 2010, 02:21:53 PM
Well..... I've been having heating issues with my engine, so I haven't even been able to get it on the road yet.  Took off the 440Source water pump housing and sure enough, I got one of the bad ones!  What a crappy design! :RantExplode:  Putting a new Mancini one on it today and will see what the difference is like.

Thanks a ton Ron for posting this!   :2thumbs:

I finally got everything back together on Wednesday and fired the car up on Thursday.  When idling, and engine warm, the water pump housing is at 180 - 185, block and heads between 170 and 175.   Worked like a charm! :2thumbs:  For the record, I replaced the POS housing with a Mancini branded one.

Thanks again Ron for the thread!!!!!! :cheers:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: CDN 69 Charger on June 14, 2010, 12:48:05 AM
Thanks man really good read for sure!!
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 1970Moparmann on June 14, 2010, 07:36:24 AM
Quote from: 1970Moparmann on May 15, 2010, 07:37:57 AM
Quote from: 1970Moparmann on May 07, 2010, 02:21:53 PM
Well..... I've been having heating issues with my engine, so I haven't even been able to get it on the road yet.  Took off the 440Source water pump housing and sure enough, I got one of the bad ones!  What a crappy design! :RantExplode:  Putting a new Mancini one on it today and will see what the difference is like.

Thanks a ton Ron for posting this!   :2thumbs:

I finally got everything back together on Wednesday and fired the car up on Thursday.  When idling, and engine warm, the water pump housing is at 180 - 185, block and heads between 170 and 175.   Worked like a charm! :2thumbs:  For the record, I replaced the POS housing with a Mancini branded one.

Thanks again Ron for the thread!!!!!! :cheers:

One add since my last post.  I was running a Champion Aluminum Radiator with 2 electric fans which the company claimed would cool off up to 600 hp - no dice.   After I replaced the POS 440Source housing, the water pump was doing it's job, but the fans were not.  I wound up putting a mechanical fan on and the car runs a cool 170 now.  Just clocked in 1,600 miles on the Hot Rod Power Tour, and the cooling issue is officially closed.  Thanks Ron! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

On a side note, I called 440Source to potentially buy some other product, but after I ranted about the water pump housing and the springs in the heads, the response was basically your screwed!  Warranty is expired, can't help you.  I went in about how I spent $3,000 with 440Source between a stroker kit and heads, and they basically said "oh well".  I went into them pretty hard and basically said, you lost all my business and I won't promote you......  I can't stand when companies have zero after sale customer service :RantExplode:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Hot_Rodder on July 02, 2010, 07:22:23 AM
Quote from: 1970Moparmann on June 14, 2010, 07:36:24 AM
One add since my last post.  I was running a Champion Aluminum Radiator with 2 electric fans which the company claimed would cool off up to 600 hp - no dice.   After I replaced the POS 440Source housing, the water pump was doing it's job, but the fans were not.  I wound up putting a mechanical fan on and the car runs a cool 170 now.  Just clocked in 1,600 miles on the Hot Rod Power Tour, and the cooling issue is officially closed.  Thanks Ron! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
So the dual electric fans that they supply want pull enough air to cool a big block? If that's the case I may end up setting those to the side and run a spal fan... Or two... But the radiator itself is fine though, right?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 1970Moparmann on July 02, 2010, 07:36:16 AM
Quote from: Hot_Rodder on July 02, 2010, 07:22:23 AM
Quote from: 1970Moparmann on June 14, 2010, 07:36:24 AM
One add since my last post.  I was running a Champion Aluminum Radiator with 2 electric fans which the company claimed would cool off up to 600 hp - no dice.   After I replaced the POS 440Source housing, the water pump was doing it's job, but the fans were not.  I wound up putting a mechanical fan on and the car runs a cool 170 now.  Just clocked in 1,600 miles on the Hot Rod Power Tour, and the cooling issue is officially closed.  Thanks Ron! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
So the dual electric fans that they supply want pull enough air to cool a big block? If that's the case I may end up setting those to the side and run a spal fan... Or two... But the radiator itself is fine though, right?

The radiator itself is working fine.  The engine is 170 while driving - very impressed!  I talked to Champion and they suggested going with a fan shroud around the fans..  I of course hit them on the claim the set up with 2 electric fans are supposed to cool up to 600 hp, and they kind of danced around this.  Since I needed to get the car on the road for the tour asap, I just put the mechanical fan on and worked like a charm.  Since I have the electric fans, my plan is to put them on as pusher fans for when sitting in traffic on a blistering day.  The highest my car when up to while sitting in traffic was 200. 
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on July 02, 2010, 08:29:37 AM
Quote from: 1970Moparmann on July 02, 2010, 07:36:16 AM

I was running a Champion Aluminum Radiator with 2 electric fans which the company claimed would cool off up to 600 hp

I talked to Champion and they suggested going with a fan shroud around the fans..  I of course hit them on the claim the set up with 2 electric fans are supposed to cool up to 600 hp, and they kind of danced around this.   

Do they even tell you what the CFM rating is for the fans?
Myself, I would be looking for 3000 CFM+ for a fairly stock big block, and 4000 to 5000 CFM+ for a performance block.
Overkill perhaps... but better safe than sorry.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Hot_Rodder on July 03, 2010, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: 1970Moparmann on July 02, 2010, 07:36:16 AM
The radiator itself is working fine.  The engine is 170 while driving - very impressed!  I talked to Champion and they suggested going with a fan shroud around the fans..  I of course hit them on the claim the set up with 2 electric fans are supposed to cool up to 600 hp, and they kind of danced around this.  Since I needed to get the car on the road for the tour asap, I just put the mechanical fan on and worked like a charm.  Since I have the electric fans, my plan is to put them on as pusher fans for when sitting in traffic on a blistering day.  The highest my car when up to while sitting in traffic was 200. 
Hmm... Good idea, I can run a different set of electric fans for puller and use one or both as pusher fans.... Wonder how many amps that will be though... Might be too much sadly... I'm trying to get around the mechanical fan with the drag it creates... Guess I got some looking into to do.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: harlandodge on July 05, 2010, 03:43:14 PM
i just got on here to ask for help on my 440 running hot,, very much alike the first thread on here is the way my car is doing but a little hotter,, i changed everything trying to fix this problem,, it has a new housing and water pump from summit,, so i guess i'll take it back off and check to see if this is my problem with it,,, will let you guys know in a few days when i can get to it if this is my problem
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: harlandodge on July 05, 2010, 07:52:12 PM
ok i couldnt stand it ,so i went ahead and took off my housing today, just as you said the water ports is much smaller then the factory  housing, also didnt like the way my water pump looked, couldnt find a name on my any where, not really sure what brand it is but got it from summit, so i ll put on a new one tomorrow and see if my running hot is fixed
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: harlandodge on July 08, 2010, 08:07:24 PM
well i changed my pump housing and pump back to the factory ones, ran my car today and it ran much cooler , i never would have found this problem if not for this thread on here ,, much thanks to you for posting this :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 1970Moparmann on July 09, 2010, 10:26:55 PM
Quote from: harlandodge on July 08, 2010, 08:07:24 PM
well i changed my pump housing and pump back to the factory ones, ran my car today and it ran much cooler , i never would have found this problem if not for this thread on here ,, much thanks to you for posting this :2thumbs:

Did you find any identification number or name on the unit from Summit?   This information needs to be added......
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Hot_Rodder on July 10, 2010, 08:06:38 AM
Or a summit part #......
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: harlandodge on July 10, 2010, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: 1970Moparmann on July 09, 2010, 10:26:55 PM
Quote from: harlandodge on July 08, 2010, 08:07:24 PM
well i changed my pump housing and pump back to the factory ones, ran my car today and it ran much cooler , i never would have found this problem if not for this thread on here ,, much thanks to you for posting this :2thumbs:

Did you find any identification number or name on the unit from Summit?   This information needs to be added......
[/quote                                                                                                                                                                        
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: harlandodge on July 10, 2010, 12:13:31 PM
i need to make a correction , i did not buy the water pump housing from summit, sorry to anyone at summit, bad mistake on my part,, i buy a lot of parts from summit and thought it came from them but it did not ,, i bought it off e-bay , it has no name or part # on it,,
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Hot_Rodder on July 12, 2010, 01:18:08 PM
ouch, might be a 440 source housing lol
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Polygon on July 14, 2010, 11:08:06 AM
I read almost every post, one of the most interesting articles I've read here.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: harlandodge on July 19, 2010, 09:55:30 AM
well guys i drove my car to a car show about 1 hour away saturday ran it around 65 mph and it ran great , temp stayed around 190-195,, before changing the water pump housing i couldnt go 20 miles without boiling over,, just thought i would let you guys know you fixed my car
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 1970Moparmann on July 19, 2010, 11:46:23 AM
Great news! :cheers:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: ionracer24 on August 25, 2010, 02:13:26 PM
wow, late to the show...but safe to say that i will be including ZERO!!!  440source  parts on my 440 build.  I for one just cannot stand poor customer service!!  I'd like to thank all you guys for a great technical article, especially those who went the extra mile and did the flow tests.  That techie stuff just turns my crank hehehe.   anyways, not to hijack but has anyone done a comparison on head gaskets and the coolant passage flow restrictions? that would be interesting to see also as headgasket restrictions are a major cause of overheating in other "cough" gm brands...... just my  :Twocents:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Khyron on August 26, 2010, 01:08:57 PM
has any of the people from 440 source ever address this? or have they stuck thier heads in the sand?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Hot_Rodder on August 26, 2010, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: Khyron on August 26, 2010, 01:08:57 PM
has any of the people from 440 source ever address this? or have they stuck thier heads in the sand?

I kinda doubt it, a little while backed I called to ask them about it due to the fact that I was planning on getting a set up from them, but when they seemingly tried to avoid it, I didn't bother pushing the issue, nor did I bother getting the stuff from them. Right now only thing I have from them are the Stealth heads with a different setup for the valve train. Also had modern cylinder heads do some work to them as well.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Khyron on August 26, 2010, 02:39:39 PM
I make it a point to warn people off everywhere I can... I bought one of those junk water pumps, and almost lost a new engine because of it... and I would be in jail if it did....
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Silver R/T on January 23, 2011, 02:30:17 PM
So what is the part number for milodon high volume pump?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Hot_Rodder on January 23, 2011, 09:33:58 PM
I ended up getting a water pump housing and pump kit through Mancini, but I have nothing to report as of yet, motor is still in the process of getting to the point of running...
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/hopupa.html (http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/hopupa.html) #MRE6900KAH is the one I got... Looks nice, I went ahead and clear painted it to help protect the aluminum though... I got there chrome bolt kit as well, need to get two chrome bolts for the thermostat housing, or find some studs that will work too (rather go the stud route but oh well)... Also need to get new heater hose outlets...
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: harlandodge on January 23, 2011, 11:10:10 PM
easy to check before you install , on the back just stick your finger in the water ports and compare them to the factory one,,, the one that was giving me problems was only half the size
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ranman69SE on January 29, 2011, 08:30:23 PM
Fortunately I discovered this topic just days before starting my engine for the first time.  Thanks to everyone who provide valuable information, and special thanks to Ron for sticking his fingers in strange places  :smilielol:

I immediately got online to Summit Racing and ordered up the Mopar Performance housing and pump (expensive, I know.  I have a history of throwing money at problems!).  While waiting for the parts to arrive, I removed my 440 Source WP and housing, and confirmed the restrictive water channels.  The Mopar housing passages seemed almost twice as big in diameter, which pleased me but I must say that I was not impressed with the water pump itself.  I'm no expert in hydrodynamics but the impeller seems antiquated on the Mopar unit, not unlike a riverboat paddlewheel! 
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj272/Ranmacman/MoparWP.jpg)

Since I had gone to all the trouble to remove it once to get it right, I didn't want to have to do it again, so I returned to the Summit site and found a FlowKooler unit that at least looked like it had some engineering in the design (anti-cavitation plate, curved vanes).  Plus, it was cheaper than the Mopar WP.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj272/Ranmacman/FlowKoolerWP.jpg)

I have not put the car on wheels yet, so I can't say what my running temp will be at this point.  Oddly enough, the 440 Source pump was the only one whose vanes would touch the housing when put together without a gasket (preferred tight tolerances).  However, take a look at the photo and notice how off-center the shaft is in relation to the impeller.  Probably not too big a deal but makes one wonder about quality control.  The impeller itself was centered and true, just the hub center was cast just a bit off.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj272/Ranmacman/440SourceWP.jpg)

Stay cool, brothers and sisters! :coolgleamA:

Randy


Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: doctor4766 on February 02, 2011, 09:59:04 AM
Quote from: Silver R/T on January 23, 2011, 02:30:17 PM
So what is the part number for milodon high volume pump?
Good question.
I've been considering one myself.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on February 02, 2011, 05:02:25 PM
Not sure if the part number is the same elsewere. http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/brbhigvolwat.html (http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/brbhigvolwat.html)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on February 02, 2011, 06:49:54 PM
Quote
I have not put the car on wheels yet, so I can't say what my running temp will be at this point.  Oddly enough, the 440 Source pump was the only one whose vanes would touch the housing when put together without a gasket (preferred tight tolerances).  However, take a look at the photo and notice how off-center the shaft is in relation to the impeller.  Probably not too big a deal but makes one wonder about quality control.  The impeller itself was centered and true, just the hub center was cast just a bit off.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj272/Ranmacman/440SourceWP.jpg)


Hey Randy,  By any chance have you measured from the center of the shaft to the outside edge of the vein style pump? (4-places would be good.) I'm wondering about QC as well and also wonder if that pump rubs without the gasket due to tight clearance or off center. Also if the weight being off center wouldn't cause some balance troubles and take out a pump early in life?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Needa68 on February 03, 2011, 02:47:04 PM
Ron: Thank you for posting this information. I'm one of those experiencing an overheating issue. My 440 has had over heating problems from the start. I contribute that to it being bored 60 over, having 10.25:1 flat top pistons and a 440 commando cam.

It took me about a year to resolve the over heating problem initially. I did so, ironically by installing a new 440 Source water pump in the original housing, an electric fan and by adding a concoction of distilled water, Red Line Water Wetter and glycol to the radiator.

Things were fine until I returned from MOPARS at The Strip last year. It was then I noticed the lower radiator hose was leaking. Since I had to drain the system to change the hose I decided to also replace the original water pump housing. I purchased a housing from 440 Source, swapped the pump to it, installed both then refilled the radiator with the coolant concoction.

All was fine until the hot days of summer began. Suddenly the over heating problem was back in spades. Now that the weather is cool again all is well. If not for your post I doubt I'd have considered replacing the new housing. I'll be swapping it out in the very near future.

I do have one question for the membership. Are any of you who have stock BB engines fitted with the 440 Source water pump housing having heating issues? I ask because I used the 440 Source water pump / housing combo on the stock 440 I recently put in the 68 Charger I am restoring. My hope is I don't need to change out that housing too since that engine shouldn't run as hot as my other one.

All feedback would be appreciated. 
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: harlandodge on February 03, 2011, 02:58:53 PM
well as for my engine running hot , the water pump housing was the cause of it , in the back of it the water port openings were much smaller then the ones in my factory housing, really couldnt tell by looking , had to put my finger in the water ports to feel the difference,, cannot remember what brand name mine was but bought it on e-bay , anyway problem is fixed after changing my pump housing
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: doctor4766 on February 03, 2011, 05:56:34 PM
Quote from: greenpigs on February 02, 2011, 05:02:25 PM
Not sure if the part number is the same elsewere. http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/brbhigvolwat.html (http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/brbhigvolwat.html)

Thanks for that link Allan.
Is there another supplier you'd recommend for that same part?
I'm just not really prepared to give Mancini any more of my money yet since they still haven't done the right thing by me with regards to a camshaft that was incorrectly supplied.

I'd really like to sort out the cause of my overheating and at this stage I'm still running the original OE water pump and housing that came with my engine. That's about the only thing left now.
The plan is to fit one of these Milodon HV pumps and a HV thermostat at the same time since after just having my 26" radiator rodded/flushed and  changing out the coolant, she's still getting a bit warm for my liking.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on February 03, 2011, 09:28:13 PM
You can try Summit.



http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-16260/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-16260/)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Silver R/T on February 03, 2011, 11:26:48 PM
Quote from: doctor4766 on February 03, 2011, 05:56:34 PM
Quote from: greenpigs on February 02, 2011, 05:02:25 PM
Not sure if the part number is the same elsewere. http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/brbhigvolwat.html (http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/brbhigvolwat.html)

Thanks for that link Allan.
Is there another supplier you'd recommend for that same part?
I'm just not really prepared to give Mancini any more of my money yet since they still haven't done the right thing by me with regards to a camshaft that was incorrectly supplied.

I'd really like to sort out the cause of my overheating and at this stage I'm still running the original OE water pump and housing that came with my engine. That's about the only thing left now.
The plan is to fit one of these Milodon HV pumps and a HV thermostat at the same time since after just having my 26" radiator rodded/flushed and  changing out the coolant, she's still getting a bit warm for my liking.

You can try Ebay. I just picked up a brand new one for $62 shipped
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ranman69SE on February 17, 2011, 10:02:16 PM
Steve, sorry for the late reply.  The impeller is centered to the shaft (equal distance all the way around).  It seems to be just the center hub casting that is off, and I suppose it could cause a balance issue but I'm sure it would be extremely minor.  And without the gasket, the vanes would lightly contact the back of the housing (not the sides) so from a tolerance standpoint, the 440 source WP is about right, IMO.  I still decided not to use it though.......
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on February 17, 2011, 10:24:59 PM
Great info. Ranman. Thanks for getting back with it...  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: chargerdogs on April 04, 2011, 07:27:29 PM
This my first post here.  I have found this thread to be very informative even though I have not read all the posts yet.  I am running a stock 440 in my 68 Charger RT and it always runs hot.  I installed a tri-core radiator and same result.  I purchased a Mopar Performance aluminum water pump and still the same overheating issue.  Tried thermostats etc. and same old heat problem.  I have my original cast iron pump.  I think I will throw it back on and see what I get.  Any other ideas out there? :brickwall:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on April 04, 2011, 07:30:59 PM
Are you running a shroud?

How old are the hoses & do you have a spring in the bottom one?

Welcome
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: chargerdogs on April 04, 2011, 07:36:07 PM
Hoses are good and are factory replacements.  I do not have a shroud.  Do you think it makes enough of a difference?  Thanks for the reply.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on April 04, 2011, 07:41:30 PM
Makes a big difference.  (and double check that lower hose, it may be a factory replacement but even those have been cheaping out on the internal springs)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: chargerdogs on April 04, 2011, 07:46:37 PM
Thanks for the info.  I will try a shroud and check the hose for the spring. 
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: my69rt on May 25, 2011, 08:17:55 PM
I've been having overheating issues since I picked up the car, never a breakdown, but enough to make me hesitate to go out on a hot day and white knuckle as the temp guage climbs near 220 at extended stops.  After reading this thread I finally pulled water pump off to see which version was installed, it looked like the test #5 pump....the worst one, great.  I installed the Miloden HV pump tonight and am looking forward to some cooler temps tomorrow on the test drive, with luck the sun will come out to stress the system.

Thanks for the data,

spence
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: my69rt on May 30, 2011, 09:22:50 PM
Test drive on a hot Memorial Day weekend complete, I think my overheating issues are solved.  Big Win! God Bless the Gold Star families.

spence
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: doctor4766 on May 31, 2011, 04:22:04 AM
Good for you Spence.
I've been toying with the idea of the Miloden pump and thermostat too.
Might wait til summer and see if I haven't already cured my issues though.
Thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 70 Charger RT on June 14, 2011, 01:12:01 PM
I wish I had come across this post a few years ago.  My old Charger (see avatar) had always run hot.  So much so that the caps on my battery had deformed from the heat.  I don't own the car anymore otherwise I would be pulling the pump.  Great thread.  On my next 70 rebuild I will definately stay away from 440 Source for the waterpump and housing.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: harlandodge on June 14, 2011, 05:08:39 PM
mine wasnt running hot because of the water pump , it was running hot because of the aftermarket water pump housing
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: johnnycharger on June 22, 2011, 09:01:49 AM
Hi guys,
chiming in a little late here.... there is a lot of great info on the water pumps, but I am not see too much on thermostats. How are the milodon ones working? Are others working also? Is 180 degrees the best to go with? :cheers:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on July 06, 2011, 04:26:41 AM
   I run a 180 stat and make sure the fuel line does not touch anything plus use a phenolic spacer. Keeping the gas cool is more important than the coolant as it seems to run better at a higher operating temp. I tried the 160 stat years ago and it didn't seem to like it as much.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: johnnycharger on July 07, 2011, 08:44:34 AM
Cool. I will go with the 180. Thanks!
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: dodgedarren on July 20, 2011, 12:36:24 PM


I have a 440 bored 30 over with Edelbrock heads, intake and cam. I am wonder if I will have overheating issues
with the stock radiator?? 10-1 compression
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: FLG on July 20, 2011, 03:27:43 PM
A little late,

Ranman,

I used an edelbrock wp and fyi it also contacts the housing if a gasket is not in place  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: CrAzYMoPaRGuY on July 27, 2011, 04:23:07 PM
Here's a slight twist....

I bought a Mr Gasket high flow 160 stat for my Interceptor... (anybody know where this is going?  :lol: )
After running warm/hot I pulled the stat to test it, and bought a $7 Stant regular stat to compare it to.
Dropped both in a pot of water, applied heat.

160 $7 Stant cap strated opening at 165 degrees.
160 Mr Gasket high flow stat barely started opening at 210 degrees.

NO MISPRINT!

I tossed the Mr Gasket high flow and my temps dropped dramatically.

I also have a 440 Source aluminum water pump on my Interceptor, but a PASSENGER side dump. I don't seem to have an issue with it, but wonder if they are not as restrictive as the driver's side dump housings?
Are the guys here who have NO issues with cooling and 440 Source housings possibly PASSENGER side pump users?

I also HAD a 440 Source pump in my Interceptor, but thought I would swap to an Edelbrock pump to see if there was a major difference. Swapped them out anddd.... NO difference.  :shruggy: The Edelbrock didn't cool any better than the 440 Source pump in MY car.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: dodgedarren on August 11, 2011, 07:02:37 PM


I have a 440 bored .30 over with Edelbrock RPM Heads and intake. I put a Hayden 2765 clutch fan and a 160 high flow thermostat. Engine idles at 210. I have a 22' stock radiator that was boiled and cleaned.

Question, can you add another core to the stock 22" radiator??
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: dodgedarren on August 16, 2011, 01:08:45 AM


Quick note. I was having over heating issue and it turned out that my carb was running to rich.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: frederick on September 04, 2011, 08:37:30 AM
Quote from: CrAzYMoPaRGuY on July 27, 2011, 04:23:07 PM
Here's a slight twist....

I bought a Mr Gasket high flow 160 stat for my Interceptor... (anybody know where this is going?  :lol: )
After running warm/hot I pulled the stat to test it, and bought a $7 Stant regular stat to compare it to.
Dropped both in a pot of water, applied heat.

160 $7 Stant cap strated opening at 165 degrees.
160 Mr Gasket high flow stat barely started opening at 210 degrees.

NO MISPRINT!

I tossed the Mr Gasket high flow and my temps dropped dramatically.

I also have a 440 Source aluminum water pump on my Interceptor, but a PASSENGER side dump. I don't seem to have an issue with it, but wonder if they are not as restrictive as the driver's side dump housings?
Are the guys here who have NO issues with cooling and 440 Source housings possibly PASSENGER side pump users?

I also HAD a 440 Source pump in my Interceptor, but thought I would swap to an Edelbrock pump to see if there was a major difference. Swapped them out anddd.... NO difference.  :shruggy: The Edelbrock didn't cool any better than the 440 Source pump in MY car.

Thanks for the warning.
I had a Mr Gasket high flow stat in my car.....
Had some trouble with it getting too hot.
Checked the stat and YEP, only opens by a tiny amount.(less than 0.040")
Another Mr Gasket part in the dustbin.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Chryco Psycho on September 11, 2011, 01:44:31 PM
I have had problems with the High Flow T stats too , I just use the Stant ones now
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Brads70 on September 29, 2011, 01:52:53 PM
I've got a 440 source housing on mine but the passenger side outlet. Has anyone had any trouble with that housing? It's mounted on the car so I can't check for restrictions?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: dodgedarren on September 29, 2011, 01:55:28 PM
Quote from: Brads70 on September 29, 2011, 01:52:53 PM
I've got a 440 source housing on mine but the passenger side outlet. Has anyone had any trouble with that housing? It's mounted on the car so I can't check for restrictions?


I believe earlier on in the post several people complained about the 440 Source Housing.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Brads70 on September 29, 2011, 07:58:59 PM
Quote from: dodgedarren on September 29, 2011, 01:55:28 PM
Quote from: Brads70 on September 29, 2011, 01:52:53 PM
I've got a 440 source housing on mine but the passenger side outlet. Has anyone had any trouble with that housing? It's mounted on the car so I can't check for restrictions?


I believe earlier on in the post several people complained about the 440 Source Housing.


Ya I read that , just seemed to be the drivers side outlet housing that seemed to be the issue? I have the passenger side outlet ( like what on a motorhome engine) and was wondering if it had the same problem?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Brent69 on October 14, 2011, 08:04:33 PM
Wow, don't know how I missed this when I was doing all my research.  I bought a bunch of stuff from 440 Source, including their aluminum water pump and housing.  My car is still in the restoration shop, and hasn't seen much street time with the new build, but it is running hot.  I think I'll look at buying the Milodon HV and see what that does.

Thanks to all for the in depth research.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Inspector71 on December 21, 2011, 11:37:14 AM
Thanks for this post. I thought I was the king of over heating cars, plagued by this for years. Anyway I am new here but not to MOPARS. I am planning a stroker job for my 383 and I was going to go with the 440 Source kit (obviously not their water pump and housing units). Is this a company I should avoid? Thanks and if this has been asked a million times, please accept my apologies.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on December 21, 2011, 12:16:34 PM
Lots of folks are running the 440source stroker kits...
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on December 22, 2011, 05:10:37 AM
Pure guess but I believe the first batch or two may have had casting issues & are now OK. Either way buy one off Mancini so it is a non issue & what I advise.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Charger 512 on March 22, 2012, 06:51:07 PM
Now u guys got me worried! i just put together a 512 stroker,it ran flawlessly
on the dyno.Ok now should i be worried about this i bought it in oct 2011.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: ncmiller1 on April 10, 2012, 07:55:51 PM
Brads70 - I've been having overheating problems and I have the 440source housing with the passenger side inlet.  I just took it off today and the restrictions are the same; you can't squeeze a single finger in the block inlet ports, whereas my stock iron housing you can easily get your entire finger in the ports.  The original is going on tomorrow so I will follow up if the overheating issue is solved (fingers crossed)!
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Brads70 on April 13, 2012, 06:52:39 PM
Quote from: ncmiller1 on April 10, 2012, 07:55:51 PM
Brads70 - I've been having overheating problems and I have the 440source housing with the passenger side inlet.  I just took it off today and the restrictions are the same; you can't squeeze a single finger in the block inlet ports, whereas my stock iron housing you can easily get your entire finger in the ports.  The original is going on tomorrow so I will follow up if the overheating issue is solved (fingers crossed)!

Thanks for the feedback. I'm building a 451  soon so I'll check it out when I pull the pump off the 440. :cheers:
Does anyone make a passenger side outlet pump in aluminum besides 440 source?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: FLG on April 15, 2012, 02:36:55 AM
Quote from: Brads70 on April 13, 2012, 06:52:39 PM
Quote from: ncmiller1 on April 10, 2012, 07:55:51 PM
Brads70 - I've been having overheating problems and I have the 440source housing with the passenger side inlet.  I just took it off today and the restrictions are the same; you can't squeeze a single finger in the block inlet ports, whereas my stock iron housing you can easily get your entire finger in the ports.  The original is going on tomorrow so I will follow up if the overheating issue is solved (fingers crossed)!

Thanks for the feedback. I'm building a 451  soon so I'll check it out when I pull the pump off the 440. :cheers:
Does anyone make a passenger side outlet pump in aluminum besides 440 source?

Yes, give mancini racing a call.

Or stop on ebay, theres a company that sells polished ones for pretty darn cheap...i cant vouch for em but they sure do look nice.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on April 15, 2012, 07:36:07 AM
QuoteYes, give mancini racing a call.

X2
Stick with a known GOOD source.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Brads70 on April 16, 2012, 12:19:01 AM
Quote from: FLG on April 15, 2012, 02:36:55 AM
Quote from: Brads70 on April 13, 2012, 06:52:39 PM
Quote from: ncmiller1 on April 10, 2012, 07:55:51 PM
Brads70 - I've been having overheating problems and I have the 440source housing with the passenger side inlet.  I just took it off today and the restrictions are the same; you can't squeeze a single finger in the block inlet ports, whereas my stock iron housing you can easily get your entire finger in the ports.  The original is going on tomorrow so I will follow up if the overheating issue is solved (fingers crossed)!

Thanks for the feedback. I'm building a 451  soon so I'll check it out when I pull the pump off the 440. :cheers:
Does anyone make a passenger side outlet pump in aluminum besides 440 source?

Yes, give mancini racing a call.

Or stop on ebay, theres a company that sells polished ones for pretty darn cheap...i cant vouch for em but they sure do look nice.

Looked on Mancini's web site and E-Bay , can't find them? Just drivers side outlets no passenger side outlets?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: FLG on April 16, 2012, 12:28:40 AM
Give them a call, sometimes they dont list everything on there site.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Brads70 on April 16, 2012, 12:34:27 AM
Quote from: FLG on April 16, 2012, 12:28:40 AM
Give them a call, sometimes they dont list everything on there site.
Ok thanks. I was just at there store a few months ago.  :brickwall:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: ncmiller1 on April 30, 2012, 01:05:56 PM
Brads70, sorry for the late reply, but after putting the stock pump housing on with a stock pump and a milodon high flow 180° thermostat all my cooling issues vanished.  I just spent some time cleaning it up and then painted it with silver engine paint and it looks great.  I searched for a different aluminum housing with passenger inlet other than 440source's, but couldn't find one.  Good luck on your search, and go stock housing before you go 440source!
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Brads70 on May 01, 2012, 07:23:44 AM
Quote from: ncmiller1 on April 30, 2012, 01:05:56 PM
Brads70, sorry for the late reply, but after putting the stock pump housing on with a stock pump and a milodon high flow 180° thermostat all my cooling issues vanished.  I just spent some time cleaning it up and then painted it with silver engine paint and it looks great.  I searched for a different aluminum housing with passenger inlet other than 440source's, but couldn't find one.  Good luck on your search, and go stock housing before you go 440source!

So far so good with the 440 source passenger housing  ( 3 years now) but I'm building a new engine and might switch back to driver side out let, in which case I'll use the Mopar performance housing. Thanks for the reply!  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: splicer on June 01, 2012, 03:37:38 PM
Don't know if this has been mentioned but I had a PRW aluminum water pump housing on my big block and it is the same restrictive casting as the 440 Source...
I switched to a Mopar Performance housing....much larger passages...

Splicer
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on June 01, 2012, 04:59:39 PM
Anything to smooth out and ease flow is good.... Restrictions where they do not belong, BAD!!! 
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on June 01, 2012, 05:07:59 PM
Pages 6-9 contain some wonderful information... folks should read it.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Cooter on June 01, 2012, 06:02:28 PM
Quote from: Musicman on June 01, 2012, 05:07:59 PM
Pages 6-9 contain some wonderful information... folks should read it.  :cheers:

Yep! Learned ALOT from this thread. Maybe now I can finally get the other three big blocks to stop running warm.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on June 01, 2012, 08:51:30 PM
I ended up with a rather interesting cooling system for my 505/6-Pack, maybe I'll do a post on it here sometime in the near future.  :scratchchin:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on June 02, 2012, 01:33:09 AM
TEASE....  :nana:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mauve66 on June 03, 2012, 04:24:12 PM
Quote from: Musicman on June 01, 2012, 08:51:30 PM
I ended up with a rather interesting cooling system for my 505/6-Pack, maybe I'll do a post on it here sometime in the near future.  :scratchchin:

yeah sure, what ever............. it never leaves the garage anyhow.............. oh............ uh............ wait a minute.............. that didn't come out right.................. :RantExplode:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on October 22, 2012, 05:48:33 AM
Just how far was the "near" future?  hint hint
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mauve66 on October 22, 2012, 06:53:34 PM
at this rate i think i'm gaining on him, too many vacations for him lately.......................... :nana:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on October 22, 2012, 07:20:05 PM
Hey... I just got back on here the other day  :nana:
I have been busy with other projects all summer... Oh yeah, and there was that Vacation to Bermuda  :lol:
The Charger project won't start up again until sometime next week... I need a body shop now.

Anywho... here's a quick description of the 505-6's current cooling system (I'm still playing with a few things).

Kitten Cam 505-6
Aftermarket Aluminum Pump Housing from Mancini Racing ( “slightly better” casting than 440 Source unit, but not by much )
Thermostat Delete (replaced with Coolant Temp Sensor)
55 GPM Electric Water Pump from Philadelphia Racing Products
19” X 28” Northern Race Pro Radiator
18” Perma-Cool HP Electric Fan
Temp sensor is connected to a digital controller which operates both pump & fan. Controller cycles water pump using varying voltages of 6-12 volts (varying speed), and at various run cycles ranging anywhere from “10 seconds ON - 30 seconds OFF”, to full “Continuous Operation” depending on the Set Temperature (desired) in relation to Actual Engine Temperature. The Fan only cycles ON when/if the Radiator and Water Pump alone cannot maintain the preset engine temperature.(Stuck in Hot Summer Traffic)
Using this system I have been able to maintain 165 degree engine temps with the engine mounted on a test stand, sitting outside on the blacktop in the baking sun, running during the hottest days of summer, with no other external means of cooling.
Controller also has a 2 minute after-run feature which keeps the cooling system operational for up to 2 minutes (if necessary) after the engine is shut down. My own tests have shown that 30 - 60 seconds is about all the time that is required to cool the engine 5 or 10 degrees below the operational set point, eliminating the issue of fuel boiling over in the carburetor after shutdown.

That's all I have for you at the moment. I'll be in and out here as time permits.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on October 23, 2012, 05:37:02 AM
Interesting, especially he part about fuel percolation.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: JB400 on October 23, 2012, 05:52:35 AM
Some guys just have to have all the accessories.  For me personally, I'd rather be able to walk into an auto parts store and pull the parts I need off the shelf and not wait 3 weeks to fix it.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on October 23, 2012, 08:03:32 AM
Quote from: stroker400 wedge on October 23, 2012, 05:52:35 AM
For me personally, I'd rather be able to walk into an auto parts store and pull the parts I need off the shelf and not wait 3 weeks to fix it.

Agreed... You'll get no argument from me.  :cheers:

The idea of going 100% electric was made way back when however, in the beginning of this post after testing various water pumps. Many modern cars have already switched to 100% electric systems these days, so I thought I'd give it a try and see what I could do. It's been more of a science experiment really, and it's probably twice the cost of a mechanical system, but it does have it's advantages.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: JB400 on October 23, 2012, 08:05:01 AM
Quote from: Musicman on October 23, 2012, 08:03:32 AM
Quote from: stroker400 wedge on October 23, 2012, 05:52:35 AM
For me personally, I'd rather be able to walk into an auto parts store and pull the parts I need off the shelf and not wait 3 weeks to fix it.

Agreed... You'll get no argument from me.  :cheers:

The idea of going 100% electric was made way back when however, in the beginning of this post after testing various water pumps. Many modern cars have already switched to 100% electric systems these days, so I thought I'd give it a try and see what I could do. It's been more of a science experiment really, and it's probably twice the cost of a mechanical system, but it does have it's advantages.
Nothing wrong with playing.  Never know what might come about.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mauve66 on October 23, 2012, 06:46:50 PM
i've always wondered about an electric pump also, very interested in future news, wish we had known more about this earlier in the summer, we would of been bugging you more.............................. :popcrn:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Musicman on October 24, 2012, 06:49:19 PM
Quote from: mauve66 on October 23, 2012, 06:46:50 PM
i've always wondered about an electric pump also, very interested in future news, wish we had known more about this earlier in the summer, we would of been bugging you more.............................. :popcrn:

As I mentioned way back when in this post (Sept. 2009)... I saw the electric water pump as the ideal solution, but I was also concerned with longevity. We've all heard the stories in the past... Modern day electric pumps seem to last just as long as any other design however. Just the same, there is no need to run a pump at max capacity all the time when it's not required.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Supercharged Riot on November 12, 2012, 03:53:45 AM
I didnt buy a 440 Source water pump housing, but I did buy a couple other ones to show you guys a comparison

You can make your own conclusions after visually comparing OEM from aftermarket water pump housings

Check out my new thread
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,96616.0.html



Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: fy469rtse on April 02, 2013, 04:09:39 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 18, 2009, 01:50:21 AM
As some of you know my Project Car aka the Black Pig was recently completed and i am in the tuning de-bugging stage. I was having some serious heat issues and tried a bunch of things to help cool it down. It has plenty of cooling capacity with a new dual pass aluminum rad so i was pretty sure that wasn't the issue.

The one thing that struck me as odd was the amount of radiant heat coming off the top of the engine....there was a ton of it. I've been around and tuned enough 440's to know that this wasn't normal. I started by replacing the 2000cfm pusher fan with a 3000cfm puller and that seemed to help somewhat but there was still lots of heat on the top end. I suspected the thermostat so i swapped in another one with basicly no change. I verified that both stats were functioning by testing them in boiling water and verified the open temps with my infrared heat gun...both worked fine. Thanks for the tip Ron , have dyno my engine , 511 stoker like yours, have not ran it it the car yet , got a friend with a big block challenger doing similar things to what you described, we have been scratching our heads on this one, good point to this one , run your vacuum advance, helps calm a big cam at idle and also reduce the heat

Basicly, it would idle at 190* but out on the road the temps would spike and bounce between 180* and 210* almost instantaneously....like over a 5 second time frame. Normally when engine temps spike out on the road it's an airflow/obstruction issue with the radiator but this was different. I finally reasoned that there was an air/steam pocket in the cooling system and as that pocket moved around and the hot steam hit the water temp sensors it was creating the spiked temps. This made sense and explained why the guages were reading the way they were but didn't explain why the air pockets were forming despite repeated attempts to purge the cooling system. The fact that the top end of the engine was so hot was a clue and i figured that the coolant wasn't being circulated fast enough so it was boiling inside the engine creating the air pockets....but why was this happening ?  :scratchchin:

So, i'm on the phone discussing this problem with Dwayne @ Porter Racing heads and he's asking the usual questions :

(1) enough rad....yep, dual pass aluminum
(2) thermostat defective...nope, tried 2 of them and both open fully as they should
(3) tuning issues...nope, timing is perfect and jetting is good, if anything it's slightly rich...not lean
(4) vacuum leak....nope, checked that and vacuum is low but rock steady

So as the conversation progresses Dwayne asks me what water pump and housing is on the engine....same one we dynoed the engine with ?

Nope....I upgrade to a fancy aluminum 440Source housing and pump. Dwayne proceeds to groan and suggests that i inspect the housing very closely. Why...the housing looks great and it's new and what the heck could be the problem ? Apparently he had one of those housings in the shop for a customer's FAST 511 build and didn't like what he saw. Externally the housing looks fine but the engine supply ports (lower openings) are very restrictive. You're kidding right....how can this be ? Nope...they are poorly designed and you'll see it yourself once you pull the pump housing and stick your fingers down the hole.  :scope:

So, over the w/e i pulled the rad and all the front acessories off the engine to have a peek...sure enough the lower (supply) ports were very small. I compared this to the stock housing and it was like night and day ! On the stock housing i could easily get 2 or more fingers all the way into the hole but on the Source housing i could only get one finger in maybe an inch and it was jammed....WTH !!!  :icon_smile_angry:

Looking at the two housings and comparing them it was apparant that the factory housing is a much better design ; the water passage makes a gentle radiused curve into the block and has lots of volume. The Source housing has a sharp 90* bend and the water passage is pinched off to maybe 20-30% of the inlet opening. Geez...what a PISS POOR design this POS is. That can't be good for coolant circulation and explains why the coolant was boiling inside the block....it was staying in there too long and forming steam pockets.  :yesnod:

So, i re-installed the factory housing with my favorite Milodon water pump and fired it up. The engine ran for 20 minutes and hit 180* sitting there idleing in 108*F ambiant air temps....today was the hottest day of the summer by far....a real scorcher. I immediately noticed that the high radiant heat off the top end of the engine was gone...despite this being the hottest day i had ran the engine so far this year....the last time i ran it the air temp was 80*F. Looking at the coolant flow across the top of the rad i noticed immediately that there was a huge difference in flow....the coolant was circualting like it should be instead of just casually coasting by...which it had been with the 440 Source pump & housing. Encouraged by this i decided to take the car out for a drive to see how it would run....if it could run ok in 108* temps and not overheat...what more could you ask....that's about as bad as it can get ! So off i go for a cruise and it's running great....at speed the temp drops to 175* and holds that temp no problem. I try it in some slow moving traffic and the temp creeps up to 195*....not bad ! As soon as the car begins moving again.....the guage drops back to 175-180 and holds....Right On !!!!! :2thumbs:


So, based on these results and close inspection of the 440 Source waterpump housing it's safe to assume that there is a major design flaw. If anybody is running this piece and has noticed increased temps and overheating you now know where to look. I have to give Kudo's to Dwayne for pointing me in the right direction. I hadn't considered that there was a problem with the design of this part because it visually looks good and i just assumed that the internal dimensions would be identical if not superior to the stock housing.....this is absolutely not the case.  :P


Hopefully this helps those members who may be experiencing overheat issues and if you are running one of these Chinese knockoffs my advice is to replace it asap....or at least compare it to the stock housing to see what you've got.


Sorry for the long winded post but i wanted to give an accurate description of the troubleshooting process and how the problem was isolated and ultimately resolved.



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Daytona Guy on April 29, 2013, 02:49:44 AM
Suck suck suck - I bought a 440 soure water pump aluminum housing and the HEMI is over heating, and the radiator is not getting hot water through it. Then I read this trying to follow my instincts - I did not like the cast sweral impellers - then I read the 440 source issues. Tomorrow the 440 soure is coming off, and a good old cast iron stock one is going on it. I just hope I did not damage my Hemi

Dane
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Daytona Guy on April 29, 2013, 09:57:05 PM
Here it is – an evaluation for water pumps...

Below you will see 4 water pumps for B and BR blocks.
From right to left my evaluation and opinion. But first I would like to say, the far right impeller that is a cast swirl – that is - take it and throw it back at anyone that wants to sell it to you. They are absolute crap. These housings are NOT designed for these types of impellers.

8 Blade impeller Cast Iron - Stock: This is the air conditioning water pump. There are 8 blades but they are smaller and add up to the same amount of blade surface as the 6 bladed pumps. Behind the blades it is smooth, with a channel to help the water flow without turbulence, or creating a pocket of water churning and causing restriction.

6 Blade impeller Cast Iron: This is a well done water pump, and I believe the best. The 6 blades add up to the same surface area as the 8 blades, and the blades are taller and helps to create a better flow without fighting itself. There is also a smooth surface behind the blades as the 8 bladed pump, with a channel to allow the water to flow smooth without turbulence.   It is my opinion that Chrysler engineers hit the nail on the head. Moving water through a motor is a complete system that understands radiator capacity, CFM air flow, timing of how long the water needs to be in the radiator to cool, and how long the water can stay moving through the block not getting too hot, or staying too cool. Just getting a pump with more blades or even more volume is not the answer to a better cooling system.

6 blade aluminum: Do not like them, but they do the job. I have one on my Daytona and it does great. The blades are longer, but carry the same surface value. They look more impressive because they are a longer blade, but that really means nothing. The drawback that I see is the area behind the blade. Because it is made of a softer metal, they have to reinforce it by giving it 8 ridges that cause turbulence and may restrict flow, or even produce drag or resistance, like a boat prop having to start from a stand still.

8 blade Swirl Cast Iron blade - aluminum: Its crap, it does not work, it will cause all kinds of problems. It does not draw water or circulate.  Someone needed to be fired.

The 440 source Housing seems OK after I pulled in and replaced it. The lower ports are fine and open, there is little to no difference even after measuring – the 440 Source channels seemed to run a little smaller, but not by much, that I see will ever make a difference. The thermostat opening is the restricted point so I do not see any problems using it again with the right pump.

Dane

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7557/img5662j.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/189/img5662j.jpg/)
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7194/img5661n.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/img5661n.jpg/)
(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5168/img5663h.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/521/img5663h.jpg/)


Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: JB400 on April 30, 2013, 01:20:10 AM
Thanks for the heads up :cheers: :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: jb666 on June 23, 2013, 10:08:49 AM
Ron... Old thread but I had the identical problem as you first posted about yesterday... Except I am running a Mopar perf pump.  I'm ordering a new pump today.  For your application are you running a 160 or 180 t stat??

Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on June 23, 2013, 12:20:28 PM
Quote from: jb666 on June 23, 2013, 10:08:49 AM
Ron... Old thread but I had the identical problem as you first posted about yesterday... Except I am running a Mopar perf pump.  I'm ordering a new pump today.  For your application are you running a 160 or 180 t stat??



Hi Jeff, i'm running a 160* Milodon high flow stat with an electric fan that kicks in at 170* and the temp seems to stay ~ 175-180* with this set-up.


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: jb666 on June 23, 2013, 12:31:29 PM
Thanks Ron... That's exactly what I just ordered.  Reading your 2009 post was identical to what I just had happen yesterday. In fact I've been chasing cooling issues for seasons.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: jb666 on June 23, 2013, 12:34:08 PM
One funny thing too.... Yesterday my coolant temp went from 86 to 150 before I left the driveway.... 5 minutes or less.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: fy469rtse on June 29, 2013, 06:08:08 AM
Thanks to this and the work and information shared by a great group of people , ever so glad a good friend of mine who is one of you put me on to this site, pulled my water pump because of the overheating issues that have been posted, guess what ? Put the cooling package hemi 7 blade cast water pump on , left the 440 source housing, problem solved thanks to Ron and a few others who put the time in to share, Ron you are welcome at my house anytime , I put barbecue on , a few too many beers, but you will have to buy your own plane ticket to Melbourne australia, so in short guys , ditch the 440 source water pump and go with what the factory engineers had right to start with, old saying comes to mind , if it ain't broke don't fix it
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on June 29, 2013, 07:09:05 AM
Quote from: fy469rtse on June 29, 2013, 06:08:08 AM
Thanks to this and the work and information shared by a great group of people , ever so glad a good friend of mine who is one of you put me on to this site, pulled my water pump because of the overheating issues that have been posted, guess what ? Put the cooling package hemi 7 blade cast water pump on , left the 440 source housing, problem solved thanks to Ron and a few others who put the time in to share, Ron you are welcome at my house anytime , I put barbecue on , a few too many beers, but you will have to buy your own plane ticket to Melbourne australia, so in short guys , ditch the 440 source water pump and go with what the factory engineers had right to start with, old saying comes to mind , if it ain't broke don't fix it



Glad to hear your issues are resolved !  :2thumbs: From what i've been hearing lately....the Source housing design is better now with the upper cooling passage issue corrected. That's the good news  :yesnod:

Like you, i'm not inpressed with that curved vane impeller design and noticed a huge difference when I installed the Milodon HP waterpump that also has an anti-cavitation plate. The big wide blade impeller design is the best choice, in my opinion and it works well for those who use them based on feedback  ;)

If i'm ever in Oz....i'll make sure to look you up for a ride in your sweet '69. Cheers, Mate  :cheers:



Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 2Luke2 on July 17, 2013, 08:02:39 PM
Just wanted to chime in here and report that I ordered a new aluminum water pump and housing from Hughes engines and it looks like its the same unit as the 440source except it's stamped with PRW. I'm going to try to return the pump at the very least as I saw someone post some numbers for the housing and it looks good... any recommendations on a new pump?

I attached a couple of pictures of the one I got. It's still in the plastic.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on July 17, 2013, 09:17:20 PM
My alltime favorite pump is the Milidon HV unit which has an anti-cavitation plate welded on the impeller.  :2thumbs:


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: ACUDANUT on August 05, 2013, 11:57:36 PM
Painting aluminum is a bad idea imo. It defeats the look and retains heat more.  :Twocents:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on August 06, 2013, 01:31:09 AM
I don't like the look, as my car is mostly stock and an aluminum intake would look out of place or I think it did. Not sure if it effects the thermal properties any but I didn't see any negatives when I searched.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: bakerhillpins on August 07, 2013, 02:07:36 PM
Quote from: Daytona Guy on April 29, 2013, 09:57:05 PM
Here it is – an evaluation for water pumps...

Below you will see 4 water pumps for B and BR blocks.
From right to left my evaluation and opinion. But first I would like to say, the far right impeller that is a cast swirl – that is - take it and throw it back at anyone that wants to sell it to you. They are absolute crap. These housings are NOT designed for these types of impellers.

8 Blade impeller Cast Iron - Stock: This is the air conditioning water pump. There are 8 blades but they are smaller and add up to the same amount of blade surface as the 6 bladed pumps. Behind the blades it is smooth, with a channel to help the water flow without turbulence, or creating a pocket of water churning and causing restriction.

6 Blade impeller Cast Iron: This is a well done water pump, and I believe the best. The 6 blades add up to the same surface area as the 8 blades, and the blades are taller and helps to create a better flow without fighting itself. There is also a smooth surface behind the blades as the 8 bladed pump, with a channel to allow the water to flow smooth without

[lots of snipage]

As I understand it you have the AC and non AC pumps backwards. According to the 69 FSM the pump for a 440 is the following read as diameter-blades:

4.38"-8 standard
3.50"-6 A/C

It should also be noted that the AC pump spins at a faster rate compared to the non AC in relation to the fan.
The FSM says that the Fan to Crankshaft ratio is .95 to 1 for a non AC 440 or 383. Its 1.40 to 1 for an AC 440 or 383.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: ACUDANUT on August 07, 2013, 10:46:21 PM
"As I understand it you have the AC and non AC pumps backwards"
I don't see this happening. The water pumps only spin one way. With or without A/C.
Haven't we covered this subject before ?   :shruggy:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mauve66 on August 08, 2013, 02:35:44 PM
i think he meant labled in the pics or by definition, not direction of rotation, at least that's the way i took it :icon_smile_question:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: bakerhillpins on August 08, 2013, 08:04:12 PM
Quote from: mauve66 on August 08, 2013, 02:35:44 PM
i think he meant labled in the pics or by definition, not direction of rotation, at least that's the way i took it :icon_smile_question:

Yes, the previous author had the # of blades on a pump w/AC vs w/o/AC backwards.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Brads70 on August 09, 2013, 07:30:55 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on July 17, 2013, 09:17:20 PM
My alltime favorite pump is the Milidon HV unit which has an anti-cavitation plate welded on the impeller.  :2thumbs:


Ron

Just ordered one....mine is fine till sitting in traffic. I believe it's a flow issue, or lack there of ? Thanks for the great thread all! :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 68CoronetRT on August 24, 2013, 12:22:51 AM
Quote from: Brads70 on August 09, 2013, 07:30:55 AM

Just ordered one....mine is fine till sitting in traffic. I believe it's a flow issue, or lack there of ? Thanks for the great thread all! :2thumbs:

I have the Milodan HV and I only get hot in traffic. I think I'm going to try a fan shroud and maybe a clutch fan that comes is alot sooner.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: v21hemicharger on October 07, 2013, 06:10:36 AM
I have just made some changes to my car.  I had an aluminum northern radiator, dual Spal 12" highest cfm fans they made, 440 source pump and housing.  I was tired of not driving because of overheating.  When I did a track day, I was 220 on track and 230 coming off track into pits.  I was having so much fun I didn't care, but had to something before I went on track again.  I read this entire thread and I did this:  Mancini pump and housing, viscious fan kit, Wizard Cooling 1.25 tube radiator and aluminum shroud.  I had the housing powdercoated so I just installed pump, fan and radiator.  I had to use the Jag clutch as the one with the viscious fan was too long.  I also had the shroud powdercoated so I put on a stock shroud from my GTX.  Although the ambient temp was only 90 outside the gauge never went over 180 driving or in traffic.  I'm a happy camper now.

My combo is 512 low deck stroker, cnc edlebrocks, holley street dominator, BG 850, .590 racer brown 272 @ .050, 4 speed w/ gearvendor, 4.10 dana.  Can't wait to take it back to track now that I wired my GV unit and have the od.  I did have to cut the XV brace off and add the spacers they provided and re-weld, but I'm so glad I have a car I can beat on and not worry abour heat.  Mike
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on November 08, 2013, 02:41:46 PM
A few things I'd like to mention:

1)  Anytime you are having an issue with something, you should change 1 part at a time. I know this can be a pain in the ass and even more costly in some cases, but if you change everything you will never know what the real problem was to begin with.

2) I am wondering if they do use a different style of pump for each case? I come to this question because my time in the Navy was spent working on many types of pumps and cooling systems. The cast curled style pump was found on every pump I ever worked on and some of those pumps made 400 pounds of pressure with an huge volume of water.. Fire pumps and transfer pumps come to mind. Also some monster pumps from submarines that moved enormous amounts of water very fast used them. 

I know from the results found here the flat blade pumps seem to work the best with this design housing. But I really wonder if it's more the small throughway in the pump housing or what? Maybe even the largest housing isn't open enough for the curled iron impeller.


One last thing. Someone mentioned that the pumps only turn one way. This is not exactly true. In my hopes of putting a single belt system on my 440 and adding an AC pump in the fuel pump area, I would have needed a pump that could run the opposite direction from the norm. Knowing they use opposing 440's in the marine industry I contacted a marine parts house here in Florida and asked many questions. The answer to (Are the pumps and housings different from a clockwise and counterclockwise engines different) was NO. He looked up both and the same numbers came up for each. I then asked what the pump number was and he gave me 2 numbers. In cross, one was standard automotive and the other was marine use grass impeller. I called him back and his answer to this question was that some boats are direct seawater and others use a heat exchanger.. With the heat exchanger they use antifreeze/coolant on the engine side and seawater for the heat exchange.  But both pumps have straight blades. Neither were the curled type.    :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Brads70 on November 09, 2013, 12:19:09 PM
Quote from: Brads70 on August 09, 2013, 07:30:55 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on July 17, 2013, 09:17:20 PM
My alltime favorite pump is the Milidon HV unit which has an anti-cavitation plate welded on the impeller.  :2thumbs:


Ron

Just ordered one....mine is fine till sitting in traffic. I believe it's a flow issue, or lack there of ? Thanks for the great thread all! :2thumbs:

Didn't help..... I then changed to a triple pass rad....same thing, different electric fan.....same thing. I just bought the FBO distributor limiter plate kit . I'll try it and plugging up the vac advance as it's only when sitting in traffic on a hot day. At 210 ( not the end of the world I know) I lift up the hood and pour a couple of water bottles and it drops back to 180 for about 10 minutes. On the hwy or around town it's fine, Just not happy idling?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: myk on November 09, 2013, 12:42:04 PM
Pour a couple bottles of water?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Bob T on November 09, 2013, 03:59:55 PM
Steve P, good points on the marine application and curved vanes vs straight, thanks. I recently changed out the contactor for the bow thruster on an 85m Navy patrol vessel, the pump tube was about 1600mm across and draws 1200A!

I'm up for a new water pump shortly as we found when we changed out the dizzy and rev n nator ecu recently that the pump has not much resistance and spins a lot more easily than it should ( relatively ). The mechanic mate giving me a hand with it suggested that the seals are getting tired and worn.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Brads70 on November 09, 2013, 11:23:07 PM
Quote from: myk on November 09, 2013, 12:42:04 PM
Pour a couple bottles of water?

Ya when I'm on a longer than normal trip like driving to Carlisle I keep a mid sized cooler in the back seat with water on ice. Some for me and some for the car if the temps start creeping up. Usually at border crossings or toll booths where I'm stuck sitting 20 minutes or more. I just open the hood and pour a couple of water bottles over the rad to cool it down. It's not something I do often just on long trips.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on November 10, 2013, 12:21:25 AM
I'm not real fond of pouring cold water over a hot radiator. I know people do, but I'd be worried I would crack it.  :icon_smile_blackeye:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on December 01, 2013, 05:31:10 AM
I would keep a couple jugs of ambient temperature water for the car & save the COLD stuff for yourself.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on December 09, 2013, 06:51:44 AM
One of the auto aftermarket accessories you could get back in the thirties (or further back even maybe?) was a water bag that you could hang on the neck of the rad filler on those old jalopies and then when it puked or got hot you had a bunch of water ready to go.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mopar0166 on January 20, 2014, 09:51:55 AM
I guess in concluesion - use the stock water pump housing( didnt really ead that thier was a good alum choice) high flow pump and thermostat?        im thinking i need to change my housing but and trying to eliminate everything else first
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on January 20, 2014, 10:36:08 AM
I think there are some good aluminum pump housings.  I like the Mancini one I have.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mopar0166 on January 20, 2014, 01:41:38 PM
Im kinda on the fence on whihc one i might have.  Im also thinkin its need timing and adjust ment more
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: stuubi on January 30, 2014, 10:09:43 AM
Here's mine 440source pump housing,and orginal that came of my 383.
Can someone point please wehere the problem is?

Ive tried to check every passage and can't see difference??Too blind to see?

(http://file.jaatiedostosi.com/6pXum9/440sourpump.jpg)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on January 31, 2014, 12:05:52 AM
This is an old subject..check the dates.

I think 440 source fixed the problem but some older housings are floating around, so buy new.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: charger Downunder on January 31, 2014, 03:59:30 AM
I think the restriction was seen when looking down through the thermostat housing.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: stuubi on January 31, 2014, 09:37:03 AM
Quote from: greenpigs on January 31, 2014, 12:05:52 AM
This is an old subject..check the dates.

I think 440 source fixed the problem but some older housings are floating around, so buy new.


5 previous post's than mine were dated 1.12.2013-20.1.2014 so i thought this was still up to date.My bad,sorry but thanks for additional info bro's.I'll check mine.They were bought late 2013.Both pump and housing but i qremember quikly looking into the thermostat housing and it seemed same as orginal.
Yes i know that in the picture,upper hose is still connected :icon_smile_big:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: firefighter3931 on February 04, 2014, 09:13:45 AM
Quote from: stuubi on January 30, 2014, 10:09:43 AM
Here's mine 440source pump housing,and orginal that came of my 383.
Can someone point please wehere the problem is?

Ive tried to check every passage and can't see difference??Too blind to see?

(http://file.jaatiedostosi.com/6pXum9/440sourpump.jpg)


The issue on mine was in the water passages. Do a finger sweep inside the openings and compare the stock housing vs 440 source. My 440 source upper passages were severely restricted. At the time, 440 source was sourcing the housings from CAT but did eventually switch suppliers. A buddy had one from a different production run and his was fine.


Ron
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: femtnmax on February 07, 2014, 07:58:48 PM
Thanks Ron for starting this post, and thanks to everyone for continuing with updates.  I am building a 383/432 stroker, and had a 440source pump housing on the short block when I spotted this post and looked at the flow/fit.
Mine is a 440source water pump housing with passenger side lower outlet; purchased early 2013 and has the 440s logo on the front drivers side.   The housing internal passages at their most restrictive location had cross section area equal to or about 10% less than the Mopar minimum area.  Look at the photo of the most restrictive location in the ports. So maybe this is better than the earlier housings.  
Now look at the second photo.  The problem I have with the "new" 440s housing is the drivers side water passages are cast closer together than the passenger side, and also the drivers side hole location pair is too high relative to the hole pair in the engine block so as a result there is only 1/16 inch of gasket separating the inlet flow from the outlet flow.  For me this is unacceptable.  
The black felt tip lines on the masking tape are the engine block hole locations.
I may try egg-shaping the drivers side bolt holes and tilting the housing on the engine to increase the gasket area....Kind of mickey mouse and not sure if it will work.  I have also found a nice iron Mopar housing...when it arrives in the mail I'll look at the fit and decide which way to go.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: greenpigs on February 08, 2014, 02:23:56 AM
I don't know if port matching the housing to the block will improve cooling any but it would increase your chances of getting a leak. Unless your build is some crazy beast I think leaving it alone and making sure the rest of the cooling system is working properly is your better bet. :Twocents:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: tallhair on March 06, 2014, 07:10:00 AM
Quote from: stuubi on January 30, 2014, 10:09:43 AM
Here's mine 440source pump housing,and orginal that came of my 383.
Can someone point please wehere the problem is?

Ive tried to check every passage and can't see difference??Too blind to see?

(http://file.jaatiedostosi.com/6pXum9/440sourpump.jpg)

What happened to the lowest port on the left in the picture?  Did it come that way or did you grind it down for clearance or something?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on March 06, 2014, 07:11:56 AM
I think it could be the lighting there.  :shruggy:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on March 06, 2014, 02:27:13 PM
I still have one of the originals that I had planned to use. I haven't touched anything carwise in a few years, but I plan to try to open up the pinch point as much as possible. I have a buddy that is a much better welder than myself, so worst case I may have to add some aluminum. I figure I bought it and paid for it. I would dame sure like to use it.....

I'm thinking cutting some stiff paper templates from a stock housing and going from there. If there is enough meat I will open it up. If not and I can't add and still keep it looking good, I always have the stock iron housing.  :shruggy:

If it works it will just be another talking point of the build.  ;)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mopar0166 on April 29, 2014, 09:18:50 AM
I have a quick question, i just pulled my housing becuase im still getting temps to high.  Ihave done everything imaginable besides swapping out the housing. 

i ordered a new one from mancini. 

My question is looking down into the space where the thermo stat goes, all i see is a small hole?  Is this suppose to be that size or should it be larger? 

i trust mancini but want confirmation from you guys 

also  how import is it that rthe passages meet up with the gasket as seen above ?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mopar0166 on April 30, 2014, 07:22:42 AM
 :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on April 30, 2014, 07:36:01 AM
You definitely don't want the gasket blocking any of the passages.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Steve P. on April 30, 2014, 04:46:53 PM
I think the small round hole you see is the by-pass.  The main issue with the old version of 440 Source housings was the passage on the passenger bank. When you get your new housing compare the two very closely. Stick your fingers into all the holes in each and compare them one at a time.

No, the gaskets should be well aligned and not blocking the water passages at all. Any time you have a blockage of any sort it can create pressure, volume and cavitation issues. Close off part of a nostril and see the difference for yourself..
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mopar0166 on May 01, 2014, 03:47:32 PM
you can tell the passages are a bit larger on the mancini one, ill have to let you know how it works out. 

Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mopar0166 on May 05, 2014, 11:14:26 AM
Small difference  in the temp level, ran better at idle.  guess ill have to keep figuring it out
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Roadrunner on July 24, 2014, 07:31:14 PM
Had all of you that have these poorly built housings thought about talking to 440 source? give Brandon a chance to make them good or work some thing out? Just a thought
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Ghoste on July 25, 2014, 08:47:22 AM
I think several people did try that when the issue first came up to no avail.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 500Jon on November 15, 2014, 06:56:50 AM
WoW, thats some read!
Well done to everyone who has done testing.
Mother Mopar knows best in my BOOK!!! (If it ain't broke, don't fix it methinks)!

Thermostats are the most important part of the system, I would always look there FIRST!
There are hundreds of variables with flow rates in any test on different applications.
Internal rust inside block and heads has a huge bearing on this issue too.

440 Motorhome engines have extra waterways drilled into the top of the block.
This corresponds with the later 'Unleaded Heads' and the Weslake Engine of 1969!!!
Lower row of elliptical slots along lower edge, between bolt holes.
I believe this was to allow heat to be taken away from the plugs and reduce cracking in this area?

Nearly everyone suffers with overheating at sometime, it can be fixed, its just knowing where to start!!! :2thumbs:

Well done again to all who have taken time and effort to solve a 'Common Problem' for all Car Guys and Gals!!! :cheers:
5J
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: kiwitrev on August 01, 2015, 12:41:34 AM
i know this thread has been around a while and i am new here how do i identify this bad pump housing before pulling it off. the enhine in my car was built over 6 years ago then the car really not driven (superbird) i come along and want to drive it and under hood gets so hot the steering col inside the car heats up to the point you cant hold your hand on it
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Silver R/T on August 04, 2015, 10:40:12 PM
I think you live in a hot climate, need to move from Commiefornia and problem solved :)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: kiwitrev on August 05, 2015, 05:39:58 PM
Quote from: Silver R/T on August 04, 2015, 10:40:12 PM
I think you live in a hot climate, need to move from Commiefornia and problem solved :)

problem sidelined the car in michigan
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Barfyspitz on April 05, 2016, 04:34:39 AM


[/quote]
problem sidelined the car in michigan
[/quote].          Did you get your problem solved? Mine was overheating just like yours. I replaced the radiator with a  griffin aluminum radiator, flushed the engine about three times. put a different fan on it, changed the thermostat. And it started running around 195°   I took the thermostat, which I think was 180° thermostat, cut the plunger and spring out of it, and now it will run all day long on a hot summer day at about 180°
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: ACUDANUT on April 05, 2016, 12:10:05 PM
Wow, 15 pages to read through. So, which aluminum housing is the best ?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: mopar0166 on April 05, 2016, 12:54:23 PM
I had the best luck with mancini, still on the engine after a year or so. no issues. runs a steady 188-193F
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: ACUDANUT on April 05, 2016, 02:08:53 PM
 :cheers: :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: ACUDANUT on April 05, 2016, 02:11:34 PM
Mancini's is about as close to our old " Direct Connection" from Chrysler
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: rcannon440 on May 24, 2016, 06:54:36 AM
I currently have the Mopar Performance aluminum housing P4286899. Are there any issues with this housing that anyone is aware of?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Brads70 on June 02, 2016, 10:17:19 PM
Well SOB !  >:(   I just took off my 440 source water pump housing ( passenger side inlet) and compared it to the stock cast iron and the lower passages are literally half of the cast iron housing. I can't even get my little finger through the passage, on the stock cast iron I can  get my thumb in there with ease. There are huge restrictions in the 440 source water pump housing ! Now to be fair I won't know how much this matters till I get it back together and test it out.
I have tried  4 different rads, 3 different water pumps and  5 different fans ( mechanical and electric) chasing down my overheating issue!
On another note.... not impressed with Milodon either , the end all be all water pump from them shows signs of leaking out the hole..... it's only 2 years old!  :o

Thanks to the original poster otherwise I might have never figured this out!  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: rcannon440 on June 04, 2016, 09:27:24 PM
I have gotten my car to run relatively cool at 190-200 until I turn the A/C on then all hell breaks loose at it runs up to 220 and beyond. Why does it run so much hotter with the A/C? It doesn't matter if I'm running 70mph or idling. Only thing I can think of is the condenser is putting off heat but that much? And what's the fix?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Dduke69 on June 20, 2016, 12:50:30 AM
Just thought I would throw my 2 cents in. I am running a 500 c.i.d. stroker with lots of 440 Source parts including the water pump housing, water pump, and their thermostat housing. The engine is running 11.2:1 compression with .571 lift roller cam. Engineered air 22" 2 row x 1 inch core aluminum rad. I started with a 180* high flow thermostat and a 7 blade fan with a clutch on it. During initial break in and for a while after that the engine would run all day long in the garage at 180*. Then my first real road trip the engine would go up to about 220-230* and as soon as I got it in the garage and shut it off it would boil over. So the first thing I did is instal a 6 blade flex a lite fan thinking air flow was the problem. No dice, exact same overheating. Next I ripped out the fan and installed two 12" electric fans and it got a little better. It would still run very hot but not boil over when shut off. Then I read the water pump test section (pages 8 and 9) of this thread and decided to replace the water pump with a MP aluminum pump. This helped a little but it still ran up to 210-215*. So I ordered a new housing from Summit Racing. Even though my 440 Source housing was purchased in 2015 there are two port holes that are slightly restrictive. Even compared to the stock housing I have there was a noticeable difference in the passenger side lower channel. At the same time I picked up a new chrome thermostat housing. The thermo housing leaked like a sieve. I pulled it off and put it on a piece of glass to find it had a slight wobble low in the centre high at the bolt holes. Took a medium file and filed down the area around both bold holes until it sat flat in the glass. Gave it a good sanding and re installed it. Sealed up good. This thermo housing is better due to more space above the thermostat and the ID of the outlet is 1/16 larger than the 440 Source housing. Same size as the stock 440 housing. Now the car Idles in the garage at about 170*, took it out today and ran it for about 1 1/2 hours and it ran 180-195* the whole time. I can live with those temps. I have been told once the engine is more broken in it won't run as hot. Just happy I can actually drive the car now and find out. The bottom line is Both the 440 Source water pump and the housing are no good. Their housing is spaced to work well with their pump so when I put a new pump on there was too much space between the pump impellers and the housing. The Proflow housing I bought from Summit Racing is about 1/8 of an inch more shallow from the water pump mounting surface to the back. Plus the four holes/channels are even slightly larger than the stock housing which is better than the 440 source housing as well. So my problem seems to have been a combination of the pump, and the housing and possibly even the thermo housing as well. Now I will hunt for a water pump with the 4 3/8 inch wide impeller spread like the stock one that came out of my 440 originally. Even the MP high flow pump has a impeller spread of 3 15/16 and the impeller blades themselves are noticeably smaller on the MP pump. If anybody knows where to get one like this please post! Hope this helps some people!
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: cjw916 on June 29, 2016, 12:16:29 AM
Ron, I read all 16 pages. Having bought my 440Source Alum housing & pump in 2011, I figured that I got one of the 'bad ones'. My new 516hp 448" has been over heating. Runs 210+ on the highway and keeps climbing. If I run the inside heater MaxHot, it will keep it from over heating. My housing says PRW on it. And I had the 440Source pump in it. Before the new engine, I upgraded to a 26" 4 core Champion radiator. I have twin 12" puller fans & a 16" pusher fan. I looked in the radiator w/ cap removed, there was like NO flow going across tank when car got up to 190+ and thermostat was open. I could *barely see the coolant move when I revved the engine to 2000.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: cjw916 on June 29, 2016, 12:32:27 AM
It seems as though the 'turbine style' pump is the problem, not so much the housing; so I ordered the Milodon High Volume pump #16260 and Milodon High Flow 180 degree thermostat #16406. I pulled my pump, and indeed, it is the crap design. I kept the PRW housing, cleaned up the sealing surfaces & installed the Milodon pump & thermostat. (note: order a thermostat housing gasket, if you care to use one, the Milodon thermostat does *not come with a gasket, I had to run to my local parts whorehouse.) I started the car & let it get to 180 degrees, the flow across the radiator was 3x at idle, what it was before, when revving 2000+! When I blipped the throttle, it was like a rushing river rapids! I took the car out for a spin, dash gauge came up to 170 and never went above it. I have an accessory Stewart Warner temperature gauge, with the electric sending unit in the bottom of the Alum radiator, in the petcock hole. The SW gauge came up to 175 and *never went above! I went 10 miles down the interstate (normally car would be 210+ by then) and SW gauge still said 175. Man! I am SO happy I found this thread and got that shit 440Source pump out of my car! My big Alum Rad is FINALLY working the way it is supposed to! Before new pump, carbs (I have Eddy 2x4bbl setup) would get SO hot, I would nearly burn my fingers removing the air cleaner knurled nuts. After new pump, they were much, MUCH less hot, I could easily hold my hand on each after blast down interstate (not possible before).
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: rcannon440 on July 26, 2016, 04:17:43 PM
I have this overheating issue with my Charger. I drive it most every weekend and last year I install A/C but the first time I used it at soon as I turned the A/C on my temp went to 215-220 even at highway speed which should be enough airflow. I talked with Scott from Wizard cooling at the Carlisle show this year and he hooked me up with the extra heavy duty 1.25 inch radiator and dual electric fan shroud. I will have it in 2 weeks and we will see. I already have the Milidon water pump and Mopar performance housing with aluminum heads. My current radiator is aluminum Griffin one size fits all racing radiator. I also knocked out a freeze plug just to make sure the block wasn't clogged with junk, it was clear. I will hopefully be giving a  positive update soon.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: cjw916 on July 26, 2016, 04:52:35 PM
As well as using 2 SPAL 12" (1,225cfm each) puller fans, I've upgraded to 2 generic eBay 16" (2,500cfm each!) pusher fans 'for emergency' use (they're wired to a separate toggle & relay). The pullers come on w/ a 185° thermal ground switch located in the water pump housing. If it's *super hot out, I can toggle the twin 16" pushers on. When I click them on you can literally watch the temp needle go down. :-)
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: holanae on May 30, 2017, 09:19:00 PM
I read all 16 pages hoping to see if anybody is have the same issue with the aluminum housing & pump setup from Summit, and nothing.  My temps creep up to 210-215 in stop or go traffic.  I don't know the manufacturer of the Summit Aluminum housing but I would have to guess it is restrictive, and that I need a better pump than what came with if from summit.  Now the decision to change both, or try the pump first. Mancini or Mildon?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: 303 Mopar on May 31, 2017, 07:33:33 AM
Quote from: holanae on May 30, 2017, 09:19:00 PM
I read all 16 pages hoping to see if anybody is have the same issue with the aluminum housing & pump setup from Summit, and nothing.  My temps creep up to 210-215 in stop or go traffic.  I don't know the manufacturer of the Summit Aluminum housing but I would have to guess it is restrictive, and that I need a better pump than what came with if from summit.  Now the decision to change both, or try the pump first. Mancini or Mildon?

Mancini is the same as Milodon.  I put one on my 505 stroker and the temp never gets above 180.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: holanae on May 31, 2017, 08:19:26 AM
Ordered a Milodon pump, when I remove the old pump I'm going to check the port holes for restriction.  If so, I will hold off on installing the Milodon pump until I can get a replacement housing.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: cjw916 on May 31, 2017, 10:46:40 AM
I really feel the bulk of the problem is not the housing, but rather, the pump. I think the higher head pressure of the Milodon pump, circulates coolant through the cylinder heads, better.

New Milodon pump cured my troubles. Good luck.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: fy469rtse on July 20, 2017, 06:38:40 AM
There's an old thread on here somewhere
Testing of all known and new shiny aftermarket water pumps
Guy's
Ma mopar had it right , hemi water pump , it doesn't fail me to use one everytime
Tried those others and had issues
Stroker victor headed 543  high 600'slift solid roller, 12.1. To 1 comp
Champion large 3pass core aluminium radiator
Hand made aluminium shroud steel fan ,no clutch
On an engine this size on the street , don't notice any loss of horsepower , runs temps like its a stock 440
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: misty440 on August 28, 2017, 01:02:56 PM
I see this is an old post but would like some clues to my overheating issue. I run a 60 over 440 and installed a be cool aluminum radiator years ago in an attempt to lower my temps. The car has sat for 20 yrs and I just got her road worthy again a few weeks ago. She was running well around the neighborhood and I took her out for a longer ride yesterday only to run extremely hot when I got back home. Inside temp was too hot I thought things were going to melt. I have the stock water pump which is not leaking and wonder if the pump can go bad without showing leaking symptoms? I am running a 180' thermostat cant remember which brand. Installed it back in the early 90's. I have a fan shroud and my fan is mounted directly to the pump no clutch. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I am looking at the Milodon pump recommended here or the Hemi pump. Which is my better choice?
Thanks,
Chris
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: green69rt on August 28, 2017, 04:34:27 PM
Quote from: misty440 on August 28, 2017, 01:02:56 PM
I see this is an old post but would like some clues to my overheating issue. I run a 60 over 440 and installed a be cool aluminum radiator years ago in an attempt to lower my temps. The car has sat for 20 yrs and I just got her road worthy again a few weeks ago. She was running well around the neighborhood and I took her out for a longer ride yesterday only to run extremely hot when I got back home. Inside temp was too hot I thought things were going to melt. I have the stock water pump which is not leaking and wonder if the pump can go bad without showing leaking symptoms? I am running a 180' thermostat cant remember which brand. Installed it back in the early 90's. I have a fan shroud and my fan is mounted directly to the pump no clutch. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I am looking at the Milodon pump recommended here or the Hemi pump. Which is my better choice?
Thanks,
Chris

First thing I would do is replace the thermostat, make sure you get one that works by testing it.  Put it in a pan of water and bring to a boil,  You should see the thermostat open.  Also do a drain, flush, fill of the system.  Go from there.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: misty440 on September 19, 2017, 07:46:28 AM
Thanks Green 69RT. I installed a new thermostat but unfortunately I did not check it externally before installation. I still over heated and my gas was bubbling in the see thru fuel filter and the car stalled. I pulled the water pump last night to check it internally and it appears fine. The fins all look intact and the impeller has not broken loose from the shaft. I had removed all of the fluid last year and added fresh 100% green anti-freeze. I will now re-install the original water pump.  I will pull the new 180' thermostat tonight and place it in hot water to make sure it is opening. If that is fine then I am stuck in what to do next? What is the proper way to flush the system and how would I check for blockage? Has anyone had to upgrade their water pump from a perfectly functioning pump just to prevent overheating?
Thanks for your help,
Chris
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: BLK 68 R/T on September 19, 2017, 08:57:53 AM
[ added fresh 100% green anti-freeze.
[/quote]

This implies there is no water mixed with it? Are you running just straight anti-freeze?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: misty440 on September 19, 2017, 01:51:54 PM
Correct. I did not add any water. I was informed by someone to run straight antifreeze. Would straight antifreeze cause an issue?
Thanks again,
Chris
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: BLK 68 R/T on September 19, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
Quote from: misty440 on September 19, 2017, 01:51:54 PM
Correct. I did not add any water. I was informed by someone to run straight antifreeze. Would straight antifreeze cause an issue?
Thanks again,
Chris

Yes, it will cause issues. I would try draining the radiator and refill with distilled water to just above the tubes in the radiator. Start it and let it circulate good for a while, then measure the coolant to see if the freeze temp is within acceptable levels for your area. You can drain and refill from there if necessary with either distilled water or coolant. Water cools better than antifreeze. Antifreeze is added as a rust inhibitor, lubricant and hence the name - to keep it from freezing. A properly functioning radiator cap is also a must as it keeps the system pressurized which increases the boiling point and keeps the coolant where it is supposed to be.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: alfaitalia on September 19, 2017, 04:15:45 PM
It's a waste of anti freeze running at 100 % but wont affect the running temp of the engine by any amount you could measure in normal street use...your problem is elsewhere.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: BLK 68 R/T on September 19, 2017, 04:33:18 PM
Quote from: alfaitalia on September 19, 2017, 04:15:45 PM
It's a waste of anti freeze running at 100 % but wont affect the running temp of the engine by any amount you could measure in normal street use...your problem is elsewhere.

I disagree. Do a quick google search on which one cools better and everything will say that water will cool better than glycol.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: alfaitalia on September 19, 2017, 04:41:43 PM
I read that too...but unless you race it or have a car that runs right at the limit of is cooling capacity you won't see the difference on the gauge. Its suppose to be about 30 % less heat transfer ability than water....but if your fan is doing its job and cooling system is in good order it won't matter....will probably get up to temp quicker though! I confess that I know this from running neat AF in my old V6 Ford Capri (wish I still had it!) when I was 18 and knew nothing about cars- after being told it would keep my car cooler..lol. Was like that for nearly two years....made no difference. I'm not saying I recommend it though !
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: BLK 68 R/T on September 19, 2017, 05:01:40 PM
Here is one article I found.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/glycol-or-water-coolant/
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: misty440 on September 20, 2017, 06:41:45 AM
Thanks guys for all the feedback. I will reinstall the pump and correct my water mixture. I was also picking one of my friends brains and he suggested to make a better fan shroud. I currently have an aftermarket 18" fan with an aftermarket fan shroud that covers the top half and he suggested to buy another half shroud and mount it upside down and bolting them together to make a complete circle if that makes sense. I will add some water wetter or equivalent additive to attempt to lower the temps even more. I will also add another spacer to the pump to bring the fan closer to the radiator as it now sits about 2 1/2" away and is only 1/2" into the fan shroud in attempt to get better airflow. How do this sound? Am I missing anything? I will respond with my results.
Thanks again for all your guys support,
Chris
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: BLK 68 R/T on September 20, 2017, 10:02:12 AM
The fan shroud needs a good seal to the radiator as well. If you bolt some shroud on there that has all sorts of large air gaps around it and it doesn't cover the whole surface of the radiator, then you might as well not mess with it. Otherwise the fan will just pull hot air around the shroud, instead of pulling air from outside the engine bay through the radiator. Also make sure your lower radiator hose has a spring inside of it to keep it from collapsing.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: cdr on September 20, 2017, 03:16:13 PM
Quote from: alfaitalia on September 19, 2017, 04:41:43 PM
I read that too...but unless you race it or have a car that runs right at the limit of is cooling capacity you won't see the difference on the gauge. Its suppose to be about 30 % less heat transfer ability than water....but if your fan is doing its job and cooling system is in good order it won't matter....will probably get up to temp quicker though! I confess that I know this from running neat AF in my old V6 Ford Capri (wish I still had it!) when I was 18 and knew nothing about cars- after being told it would keep my car cooler..lol. Was like that for nearly two years....made no difference. I'm not saying I recommend it though !

A big block mopar IS at the limit, try cooling one with 100 + deg out side, you need to take advantage of EVERY little thing to help keep them running cool, so YEAH 50,50 mix will help.  A V6 crappy & a 440  comparison on overheating problems LOL
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: alfaitalia on September 20, 2017, 04:52:21 PM
I guess so.....but there has only ever been one day a temperature was recorded over 100 in the UK ...for interest it was in 2003 in Faversham Kent..101.3F. So over heating is not the problem here it would be in the Southern U.S. Nothing wrong with Ford Capri! A good one will set you back over £30,000 over here......don't think they were available in the US....but not sure on that.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: INTMD8 on February 01, 2018, 01:57:54 PM
Quote from: cjw916 on May 31, 2017, 10:46:40 AM
I really feel the bulk of the problem is not the housing, but rather, the pump. I think the higher head pressure of the Milodon pump, circulates coolant through the cylinder heads, better.

New Milodon pump cured my troubles. Good luck.

Good info. The car I just bought has the same prw pump/housing so I will get it replaced before I fire it up  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Simonic on May 10, 2018, 01:31:00 PM
The title says it all for this thread. A hell of an interesting read.
I'm running a 440 source housing and 'turbine' style pump I bought new in 2017.
I'm noticing that at low speed when it's hot (for uk) weather that the temp is creeping up.
I do have a Chrysler water pump with the different style of impeller.
Can I use this in the 440 source housing ? Any possible clearance problems ?
Thank you gentlemen
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: cdr on May 10, 2018, 01:59:21 PM
The 440 source housing has been fixed MANY years ago, I have their pump & housing on my 512 & is runs cool in 105 deg weather, my car also has AC.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Simonic on May 10, 2018, 02:47:46 PM
Quote from: cdr on May 10, 2018, 01:59:21 PM
The 440 source housing has been fixed MANY years ago, I have their pump & housing on my 512 & is runs cool in 105 deg weather, my car also has AC.

Thank You Sir.
Can I ask,is your pump the type with the curved turbine type fin or a more traditional ie chrysler type fin ?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: cdr on May 10, 2018, 04:13:50 PM
Quote from: Simonic on May 10, 2018, 02:47:46 PM
Quote from: cdr on May 10, 2018, 01:59:21 PM
The 440 source housing has been fixed MANY years ago, I have their pump & housing on my 512 & is runs cool in 105 deg weather, my car also has AC.

Thank You Sir.
Can I ask,is your pump the type with the curved turbine type fin or a more traditional ie chrysler type fin ?

it is the curved turbine type
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: aerolith on August 20, 2018, 05:31:30 AM
Hi Hot motor Folks!

Running a HOT 512ci (600hp) in my mates Mopar near to Faversham Kent, the HOTTEST place in the UK with a full 440-Source pump set-up, 'brand new' earlier this year and guess what??? :RantExplode:

OVERHEATING IN TRAFFIC AND ALMOST ANY SPEED UNDER 70MPH (seems OK at 120 plus?)... :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :-\ :-\ :-\

So yesterday we swapped it out for a Mopar performance ali housing and Mopar supercool ali Motorhome pump. :pity: :pity: :pity:

Yep back to normal temps again, but leaking from the pump bolt holes... :slap:

So what are we to think??? :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn:

Mopar Hot Heads of England :flame: :flame: :flame:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: krops cars on August 21, 2018, 11:51:39 AM
This is interesting. I do not have an over heating issue yet. I have not had mine on the road. My thermostat housing was leaking. They said to just use a heavy bead of silicone. I inspected it. I had to plain it done. Now works great. You would think a place called 440 source would be great products. They could rename the company to 440 SH--.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: kevs1969daytona on November 20, 2018, 09:36:47 PM
I had some overheating problems and this is what I found.  First when the engine was rebuild the thermostat was upside down and partial stuck open.



Also, when I got the car it initially had a 1977 block. So with 1977 block in the car I got a new water pump for it. I later learned the 1977 block had a bad main bearing so I rebuilt a new engine with a 1970 block.  So one day I go to NAPA because I want a brand new pump for my new engine rebuild and the counter guy says, "what years your car.  "Ummm" I say "it's a 1969 of course",  so he hands me a brand new 1969 water pump (not the housing).  I place the 1969 pump in the 1977 housing that was transferred from the old 1977 block, it fit perfectly.  Now I had no idea that a 1969 water flows in a different direction than a 1977 mopar 440.  So long story short when the 1970 block was built they put the 1977 water pump and housing on the block with a 1969 pump and it's getting way too hot still.  So I buy a mancini water pump see if it helps with cooling. But it has a drivers side lower coolant outlet, the 1977 pump on the block has a passenger side outlet "WTF", so I called Mancini the tech say you sent the wrong pump dummy, he say "no that's the correct housing and pump for a 1970 block" .  Sh** I looked at the directional fins on the pump that was in the 77 housing and the fins were backward not pushing enough, think I and figured it out.  I had to buy a new radiator (inlets were opposite).  heres some pics of the different water pumps for a 440 have late 70's versus older engine blocks.   Hopefully my it cures the issue. The bottom 2 pics are 440 pumps for the different years notice the directional fins.  So the morale of the story is know for certain what year your block is for a 440.  Hope this helps someone out.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: BLK 68 R/T on November 22, 2018, 10:44:54 AM
The only BBM that I have heard of with a reverse flow is the marine applications (not even sure if they had a special pump?) Whether or not the inlet is on the left or right side doesn't matter as far as the pump is concerned in your application as long as the pump is being driven the correct way.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: kevs1969daytona on November 25, 2018, 11:45:33 PM
Think of what I was trying to say is that the pump impellers were not correct for the outlet in my case.  Would think it would not be as efficient.   These are pics of 2x 440 water pump housing and 1x 440 water pump notice the fins are curved.  Would that curve be more efficient in one of these pumps as opposed to the other.  Not a mechanic but it looks like the curve is for one direction and made on purpose to pump more water through.   :shruggy:
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: BLK 68 R/T on November 26, 2018, 01:06:29 PM
Pump is still pumping water the same direction, just sucking it from the right side bottom instead of left side. That is the inlet side not the outlet.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: kevs1969daytona on August 07, 2019, 10:08:21 PM
Car runs great have an extra large radiator, air pusher fan. manchi water pump, 180 thermostat.  I traffic she will go up to 190 turn the fan on couple minutes later maybe 180. Also have the heater radiator hook up, more water i guess.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: dspaulding70 on July 23, 2020, 03:35:23 PM
Anyone installed the Proform 440-453 aluminum water pump housing from Summit?  Here is the link       https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-440-453

Also I purchased the Tuff Stuff Perfomance Water Pump part 1317N also from Summit                   https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-1317n

I am having the same high temp problem in my 440.  I have the Summit radiator and (2) electric fan combo kit as well.     https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-384021-kit1

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: WHITE AND RED 69 on July 23, 2020, 11:39:30 PM
Quote from: dspaulding70 on July 23, 2020, 03:35:23 PM
Anyone installed the Proform 440-453 aluminum water pump housing from Summit?  Here is the link       https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-440-453

Also I purchased the Tuff Stuff Perfomance Water Pump part 1317N also from Summit                   https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-1317n

I am having the same high temp problem in my 440.  I have the Summit radiator and (2) electric fan combo kit as well.     https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-384021-kit1

Thoughts?

Have you checked the flow in the radiator once the thermostat opens up? I'm pretty sure the proform housings are good so I'd start with the simple things and make sure the flow is right. Is the overheating at idle or highway speeds? Also what is your pulley setup?

Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: b5blue on July 24, 2020, 08:05:17 AM
Rock Auto had the pump just like the big $$$$ one for great price made by DELCO.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: dspaulding70 on July 24, 2020, 11:47:28 AM
Quote from: WHITE AND RED 69 on July 23, 2020, 11:39:30 PM
Quote from: dspaulding70 on July 23, 2020, 03:35:23 PM
Anyone installed the Proform 440-453 aluminum water pump housing from Summit?  Here is the link       https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-440-453

Also I purchased the Tuff Stuff Perfomance Water Pump part 1317N also from Summit                   https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-1317n

I am having the same high temp problem in my 440.  I have the Summit radiator and (2) electric fan combo kit as well.     https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-384021-kit1

Thoughts?

Have you checked the flow in the radiator once the thermostat opens up? I'm pretty sure the proform housings are good so I'd start with the simple things and make sure the flow is right. Is the overheating at idle or highway speeds? Also what is your pulley setup?



Appreciate you responding.  Yes.  Thermostat is opening up.  Running a 160 degree t-stat.  Pulley system is March Performance serpentine system.  Thinking the electronic fans are cutting in and out because I noticed they were not running when I opened the hood when the temp was showing 210.
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: dspaulding70 on August 21, 2020, 07:57:51 AM
Now pretty sure the overheating is being caused by the Holley Sniper EFI setup.   :brickwall:

Anyone else had this problem?
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: c00nhunterjoe on August 21, 2020, 08:23:10 AM
I would suggest starting a new topic with the issue at hand and what exactly is going on. From the last post i see you were at 210, but had no fan operation. That is a problem. Need more info as to how it is heating up, traffic, idle, cruise. Etc. Need to know the engine, and details of the setup
Title: Re: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !
Post by: Mad Max on December 05, 2021, 09:39:57 AM
Hiya folks - killer thread - great info in here.  I have a recent '440 overheating issue' I solved recently that I think ties directly onto this thread and wanted to share my findings.  This all has to do with "RV/440-3" engines, particularly with the water pump housings, and most especially, thermostats.  Some of this will be repetitive and some not.  I think it's pretty close to accurate but welcome any clarifications.

BLUF: My 440 came from a 79 Winnebago and it has the RV water pump housing and a standard "440" water pump for a 78 Power Wagon from my local Orielly Auto Parts.  During the rebuild, not knowing any different, I tossed in a typical 180* thermostat for a 78 PW, and despite known good hardware my engine would not run 'cool' - it would always run 210-225 or so.  Then, I swapped in a RV 'skirted' thermostat that 'matches' the 440 RV pump housing, and it has been a rock-solid 180* ever since - like it hits a peg at 180* solid.

Background.  My truck is a 2002 Dakota quad cab; 78 "RV" 440 from a 79 Winnebago Motorcoach, 46RH trans w/SMR adapter, Atlas4, D60/14B, 40" Toyo's on Hutchinson beadlocks - the truck is built for rock crawling and hard-core overlanding - I call it my 'Rocklander'.  Lots of strong hardware and modern touches including Holley Sniper EFI and a CVF Racing serpentine kit.  Anyway back to the engine...

My particular 440 is date coded 1978, and because it was intended for an RV is actually has a few minor but important differences between it and a standard car or truck 440.  First, the RV 440s were designated at a 440-3, whereas I think the car/truck 440s were 440-1.  The major differences were mostly related to cooling, meaning as mentioned above two additional cooling ports at the outer edges of the cylinder walls, with (or in my case without) matching additional cooling ports in the heads, and, the big distinctive difference, the RV heads had 5/8-socket spark plugs with a non-crush-washer seal.  The heads that were on my 440 are the typical 452s with the normal 13/16-socket plugs and crush washers, so either my 440 just didn't get 'em...or more likely the owner of the RV had the heads swapped out for non-RV heads - my engine did have Fel-Pro head gaskets on it, which was not original, so the heads have at least been off - no idea if these 452's are original to the 440 but they were on it and I like 'em so I'm running 'em.  Also, and here's the kicker specifically regarding cooling - the RV 440s also received a specific water pump housing, pn# 3751216, easily distinguished by either the CB on the front inlet or the additional bypass port under the thermostat, AND...a specific/matching thermostat, which I discovered is kinda important.

RV water pump housing (note the two cast recesses for the thermostat and bypass port) -

(https://i.imgur.com/sqicyEW.jpg)

After surfing lots of "440 overheating" threads, and focusing on the 'RV' info, I discovered that the RV applications used a specific "skirted" thermostat in conjunction with the RV water pump housing, without which makes it impossible for the engine to be cooled properly.  The RV 440's have a big coolant bypass channel within the pump housing, which when 'open' is designed to bypass the radiator and keep coolant circulating within the block/heads - warming up the engine quickly to warm up the travelers in the RV as quickly as possible.  But, when fully warmed up, the 'skirt' attached to the bottom side of the RV thermostat lowers down into the recess below it which blocks the bypass channels in the pump housing, which then directs the coolant through the radiator; without the skirted thermostat the radiator bypass port can never be blocked, which will instead just continually circulate most of the coolant within the block/heads (bypassing the radiator) - some goes into the radiator but definitely not all, which is why my 440 wasn't cooling well (it was cooling so-so, but not great) - and yep I had a standard 440-1 thermostat in there.  My intel indicates the Mr. Gasket 'stats are of marginal quality but the Milodon ones are good.  Pics of the Milodon (silver top) and Mr.G skirted thermostats -

(https://i.imgur.com/uSHY5Si.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Bv4znSc.jpg)

...compared to a non-skirted 'regular/non-RV' thermostat -

(https://i.imgur.com/2TsP4ZK.jpg)

But wait - there's more.  The RV water pump housing has a recess just below the top which fits the thermostat perfectly, but the non-RV pump housings do not.  And, all of the upper thermostat housings I've found have a recess in them too, which according to the books is to center the thermostat in the 440-1/non-RV applications.  Now, because the thermostat lower skirt is supposed to extend down into the lower recess and block the bypass coolant flow I chose to presume the thermostat...in the RV applications...is supposed to be placed in the pump housing itself, and not in the upper thermostat housing.  In the RV applications I don't think the thermostat is supposed to go in the upper housing, because if it did then there would be the chance of it not aligning with the lower recess, so I went with the lower/below-the-gasket placement.  So, place the skirted thermostat in the pump housing, squeeze on a good layer of UltraGrey RTV, then the gasket, more RTV, set the upper "thermostat" housing on, RTV on the bolt threads, and let lightly press everything together so the RTV makes contact with all surfaces and begins to squeeze out, wait half an hour for it to set up, then torque to a mere 18 lb/ft.  Let it sit 24 hrs minimum, then fill and fire.  
I'm pretty sure my cast iron upper thermostat housing is not for an RV application and is simply for all the 440-1 applications.  I have not yet found a genuine "440-3 thermostat housing", but if I did I'd wager there is no recess in it for the thermostat.

But still, my thermostat housing had that recess in it...or at least it used to. To try to get maximum clamping and sealing potential from it I went ahead and had a local welding shop do the proper cast iron welding to fill in the recess, and I machined it flat - actually I machined it to perfectly match the pump housing with just the slightest detectable amount of center 'rise' to get that much more clamping on the gasket.

Here is my upper thermostat housing 'filled in' -

(https://i.imgur.com/0yFwxqB.jpg)

...and sanded flat -

(https://i.imgur.com/ZdqJNHe.jpg)

...and Permatex 27036 'max torque' ultra grey to seal it all up -

(https://i.imgur.com/h2nIG6s.jpg)

Results: With the non-skirted/non-RV/wrong thermostat my engine had been running between 210-225 the whole time.  But after installing the skirted thermostat it now resolutely stops cold at 180* - hasn't yet gone a degree higher  :2thumbs: .

Anyway, hope this helps anyone else out there who may be running the RV hardware yet having cooling issues.

Cheers n beers,
- Sam