Hi
I am building a 69 Daytona replica. I plan on getting the car lower to the ground and with that Daytona Rake front to rear. I really like the wheel well openings and flares with the steelies and the wide rubber. On the 71 K+K Dodge Daytona of Bobby Isaac. I ask because my front fenders are not that sound to start. I am going to have to replace a lot of metal on them. I would never cut a good fender. I am going to replace both rear quarters. Now is the time to trim them out. If you like say so, and if you hate the idea. Don't burn me at the stake just yet. This is more of a poll Thanks.
Sorry i dont have an opinion on the wheel openings, but i do have a question about your daily driver. what is a 66 cvt cp?
I am doing a 69 daytona and the front are rolled but the backs are not. Love that super wide tire all the way around
a real bad word to use on this site. Corvette
Hey it is your car so do whatever you desire. If someone bitches tell em to buy it or go build their own. Look at the orange charger with a lime green wing. Hey it`s his car and his choice of color.` :icon_smile_big:
I like it
(http://www.cottonowens.com/images/photos2/Daytona_pitstop2.jpg)
(http://www.cottonowens.com/images/COGpics11_05/BakerDarlington.jpg)
are you gonna mould the nose to the fender like in the pic. Rene
Quote from: THE CHARGER PUNK on November 20, 2007, 03:18:53 PM
I like it
(http://www.cottonowens.com/images/photos2/Daytona_pitstop2.jpg)
(http://www.cottonowens.com/images/COGpics11_05/BakerDarlington.jpg)
I like your pics. Got to talk to Cotton at the moonshine festival in Dawsonville Ga. a couple of years ago
Check out the vinyl top in these photos. Going for the golf ball effect? I guess not. More so to cover the seam where the roof was narrowed up
The front flares look like the preformed ones you could get from Holman and Moody. I am not a fan of these. They were used mainly on shorter tracks.
Quote from: BigBlockSam on November 20, 2007, 03:27:51 PM
are you gonna mould the nose to the fender like in the pic. Rene
I dont know. I might be forced to. Depending on how much I pooch the top of fender out. I may have to make a panel that runs from the tip of the nose to the front of the wheel opening to get a clean line
I am not sure on how I am going to roll mine but someone said to roll a baseball bat under the wheel opening with the tire. Any truth to that matter!?
welcome to the thick skin wing car club :cheers:. Some is just bull and some info is really great to learn about. Stuart, I only have 2 cents you got 6. That is more than I got. :brickwall:
Here's our race car replica--IMHO the fenders would look a lot nicer trimmed up.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/pettybird/birds004.jpg)
Quote from: Howie on November 20, 2007, 04:27:09 PM
I am not sure on how I am going to roll mine but someone said to roll a baseball bat under the wheel opening with the tire. Any truth to that matter!?
having been a fabricator for 30 years- cars, planes, lies The ball bat trick only works to get the metal off the already flared fender. onced it has been bent against the tire. Often by the wall. Paitence and a hammer and dolly. Is the safest way to get small flares. larger flares require that you cut out the fender just enough to clear the tire then use poster board and masking tape to make a pattern of how you want the flare to look. Mark the fender and at the seam and cut the fender out leaving a inch short of the line. On second thought pull a couple of over time shifts at work and hire it out. It will save you a lot of time.
Quote from: pettybird on November 20, 2007, 04:30:02 PM
Here's our race car replica--IMHO the fenders would look a lot nicer trimmed up.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1/pettybird/birds004.jpg)
Its nice like it is
Quote from: Howie on November 20, 2007, 04:29:33 PM
welcome to the thick skin wing car club :cheers:. Some is just bull and some info is really great to learn about. Stuart, I only have 2 cents you got 6. That is more than I got. :brickwall:
i dont have any cent thats the problem no sense either
Do it. That's what the original cars were built for. lead the nose to the body, flare the fenders and quarters, drop the car and don't forget to open up those fender vents for clearance and/or ventilation. :eyes: BTW to achieve the real 'race car look', move the hood pins all the way to the front of the hood and add a third to the middle.
Do you think the # 71 cars fenders were stamped or made ? They have been cut and flared .
Larry
I think you should open them up. You do realize of course, that every show will see you having to deal with at least one purist shaking his head at you for cutting up a "good" fender. :icon_smile_wink:
I almost cut up a c500 to build a prostreet daytona then it went nascar style then had to sell it to build a shop. Now I am building what I want and I dont care what anyone thinks. They can like it or they can hate it. Cause it`s my car and my money.
Quote from: Howie on November 20, 2007, 09:05:09 PM
I almost cut up a c500 to build a prostreet daytona then it went nascar style then had to sell it to build a shop. Now I am building what I want and I dont care what anyone thinks. They can like it or they can hate it. Cause it`s my car and my money.
:iagree:
Quote from: daytonalo on November 20, 2007, 07:06:38 PM
Do you think the # 71 cars fenders were stamped or made ? They have been cut and flared .
Larry
They were definitely cut and flared.
I say cut them. Cut both ends of the car if you've already got rusty quarters and wheelhousings in the rear anyway.
Take a few good pics of all the wheelwells beforehand showing the rusty metal, and have those ready at a car show.
Whip them out if anyone gives you crap about the cuts.
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BTW:
I think it's totally cool to cut the wheelwells on a really legit-looking Daytona replica, but I would probably feel differently if the car was a street car in most other senses. I think the car REALLY needs to be fully rollcaged if it's gonna be hacked at the wheelwells, for example.
If you're gonna have a mostly stock-looking engine bay and a full interior, then I would not cut the sheetmetal.
Already there. The cage is installed except for the side bars since it will be driven regularly. Even cutting up the firewall to do the cowl induction.
What about under hood ? A-body hinges ? inner ledges removed ? Doulbe shocks ?
Larry
Quote from: daytonalo on November 22, 2007, 03:59:42 PM
What about under hood ? A-body hinges ? inner ledges removed ? Doulbe shocks ?
Larry
I see doing only what is necessary to get the body lower to the ground with bigger tires.
My first Sightings of Charger Daytona's were Race Cars . That vision and that stance of low and sleek is what imprinted in my brain as what a Daytona really looks like. It is first the look, then what under skin mods I need to do to make the suspension work correctly. correct geomentry and wheel loading with out hitting the body. I have already complicated the building enough. Any more would be silly. This is still a street car. I am not building a race car for the street. I know people that have taken old cup cars and turned them into street rides. And that is what they are, RIDE'S very much like what you see at the fair. Thrilling at first, but it gets old if you ride it repeatedly. I want a door slammer that keeps me dry when it rains. Windows that don't whistle when the heater is on. Enough insulation under rubber floor mats to keep noise down and feet cool. I am not a fan of carpet in cars. Justifiable modifications are fine. Ones that have a reason to be done on this car. Roll bars that clear my head getting in the car and keeps the rear seat accessable to riders are fine. Thats part of the exterior look of a real Daytona. But not a full 8 point cage like a race car. Because it is done on a race car is not a reason alone to do it on a street car. Thanks Johnny Daytona
Ironically, I don't think the NASCAR bodies were really a whole lot "lower" compared to a stock Charger. I think the fronts were always pretty close to stock height and the rears got a little raised depending on the track/setup.
It was just that the wheels/tires had gotten a lot bigger than stock, while staying underneath that nearly-stock overall body height.
Here's a pic of a stock-ish '69 C500 that has the front fenders cut-out just enough to clear the racing tires. I didn't expect to ever see this on an uncaged streetable C500 when even most caged Daytona replicas don't have the cutting done, but here it is. It seems to be exactly what you're talking about:
(http://wwnboa.org/2005darlingtonjpgs/darlington76.jpg)
Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on November 23, 2007, 11:48:33 AM
Ironically, I don't think the NASCAR bodies were really a whole lot "lower" compared to a stock Charger. I think the fronts were always pretty close to stock height and the rears got a little raised depending on the track/setup.
It was just that the wheels/tires had gotten a lot bigger than stock, while staying underneath that nearly-stock overall body height.
Here's a pic of a stock-ish '69 C500 that has the front fenders cut-out just enough to clear the racing tires. I didn't expect to ever see this on an uncaged streetable C500 when even most caged Daytona replicas don't have the cutting done, but here it is. It seems to be exactly what you're talking about:
(http://wwnboa.org/2005darlingtonjpgs/darlington76.jpg)
nice looking , saw that car in pigion forge a few years back
That would be Al Blakes car aka Highbankhauler.
I think that on the website he mentioned how they flared their fenders for that look.
After hearing a few of the older drivers talk, I would have to disagree on the though of the race cars not being that much lower than stock cars. I think they were quite a bit lower. I think it was 3 years ago that Charlie Glotzbach was making a comment to Wayne Perkins about his #99 Daytona that the front end was way to high to be good on a race track.
Quote from: 69_500 on November 23, 2007, 11:53:58 AM
That would be Al Blakes car aka Highbankhauler.
I think that on the website he mentioned how they flared their fenders for that look.
After hearing a few of the older drivers talk, I would have to disagree on the though of the race cars not being that much lower than stock cars. I think they were quite a bit lower. I think it was 3 years ago that Charlie Glotzbach was making a comment to Wayne Perkins about his #99 Daytona that the front end was way to high to be good on a race track.
thats what i remember them saying also
Oh yeah, I agree they were technically lower than true "stock." I'm just saying they weren't nearly as much lower as the amount of sheetmetal-height that is missing from the front fenderwells.
Judging by the fender-cut alone, you'd think they must have taken at least half a foot out of the front end height on the racing Daytonas. But it was nowhere near that. It was more like just a few inches lower than a stocker if you measured the final height of the bodywork compared to the pavement itself.
Nascar was checking that ride-height figure more and more strictly at the time. Just look at the Torino Talledegas. They got built with custom-shaped rocker panels on all the street cars just to legalize another 2" of body drop. And the Mopar guys were monkeying with torsion-bar adjustment cheating methods to dodge the rules too.
I took a day of work and drove down to the museum at talladega so I could see and shoot a bunch of pictures of the 71 car so I could make my creation close to a stock car. I see how rad rods by troy done one but didn`t like it and I want to build my own instead of write a check.
I was lucky to have a worker there open the hood so I could get some under hood shots. Was great cause I scored some nascar valve covers, bathtub intake and nascar carb which my wife refers to as a high dollar car part. Not sure how far I will go on cutting it up. I am cutting out the top of the fender fuel fill. Going with a fuel safe fuel cell.
Just do it!
Fact is, you could ALMOST build this fender from 18 gauge sheetmetal, and nobody would be the wiser.
Notice in this picture, the fender flare/opening almost touches the fender scoop. That's a radical wheel opening!!
Quote from: Howie on November 23, 2007, 05:45:44 PM
Was great cause I scored some nascar valve covers, bathtub intake and nascar carb which my wife refers to as a high dollar car part.
Did you just score pictures or did you find bring home the real items. If you found items I am proud for you and jealous. John
Quote from: Magnumcharger on November 23, 2007, 10:30:50 PM
Just do it!
Fact is, you could ALMOST build this fender from 18 gauge sheetmetal, and nobody would be the wiser.
Notice in this picture, the fender flare/opening almost touches the fender scoop. That's a radical wheel opening!!
Thats the flare I am talking about . . And I am going to make it out of 18 ga. sheet at least up to the ridge line. I know the routine oh too well. Another item in that picture is the nose is not bonded to the fender
Or is it just painted to look that way?
Quote from: Ghoste on November 24, 2007, 01:08:28 AM
Or is it just painted to look that way?
I guess there is one way to know. Road trip to Talladega.
Have wanted to do that for many years. :yesnod:
Someday...who knows when...I'll make it to Talledaga. And Daytona too!
This is my favorite picture of the K+K Charger. What lines!
And it really demonstrates the rake of this car when in motion.
Eve n the scoops are fared into the fenders and tape on upper W/S area to cut down on drag !
Done the road trip
Here you go now you know and don`t have to make the road trip but it is worth it. It is not solid
Quote from: Magnumcharger on November 24, 2007, 08:36:50 AM
Someday...who knows when...I'll make it to Talledaga. And Daytona too!
This is my favorite picture of the K+K Charger. What lines!
And it really demonstrates the rake of this car when in motion.
Holy cow! Dunno if it's the camera/angle/photo resize or what but the windshield/roofline looks so tall in proportion to the front of the car. The driver looks like he's in a giant go kart.
Troy
Quote from: Howie on November 24, 2007, 09:18:20 AM
Here you go now you know and don`t have to make the road trip but it is worth it. It is not solid
Thanks, but I'm still going to leave the road trip on the list. :icon_smile_big:
More of the same...
http://www.superbird.com/wci71.html
I hope I can ask this without a problem , did the K&K make their fenders or were they stamped ???
Quote from: daytonalo on November 24, 2007, 06:25:07 PM
I hope I can ask this without a problem , did the K&K make their fenders or were they stamped ???
That one got answered:
Quote from: Johnny Daytona on November 21, 2007, 03:36:42 AM
Quote from: daytonalo on November 20, 2007, 07:06:38 PM
Do you think the # 71 cars fenders were stamped or made ? They have been cut and flared .
Larry
They were definitely cut and flared.
Troy
Please forgive me , but the K&K fender looks different than the Moody fender . If you look close , the flare starts at the top of fender on K&K , the owns car does not .
The K+K fender starts with a stock fender that is cut out to clear the tire. A flat piece of metal that resembles the shape of a crescent moon is added to the top. as the tips of the moon is brought in toward the center of the wheel it lifts the inside radius of the crescent up and out . that is the angle you see over the top of the tire.
The short track car of Cotton Owens has the stamped flare that was sold by several people Hollman Moody, Pistone. Banjo etc... It starts out looking like a spare tire well cut in half. First the stock fender was cut to the radius of the flare. then the flare was stuck up into the wheel opening once the tire clearance was established you simply marked the flare and cut leaving 1/2 inch extra from the line and weld it more like a right angle joint. trim the flat covering the wheel and roll the edge over so not to cut the tire. bend the 1/2 inch lip hanging inside the fender flat to the fender. This was used on short track cars because it did not bend down against the tire as much when you got body slammed. The speedway flares would cut the tires easier when bent.
In my vast experience (two cars :D), the real race fenders I've looked at have all been modified by hand. I can't imagine that anyone would spend the money on tooling to stamp fenders for race cars when they were likely tweaking them all the time any way. The ones I saw at least looked like they began life as factory fenders so maybe it was still easier than fabricating them from scratch.
Are we talking about the entire fender or just the flare?
Troy
I do realise they start with a stock fender with inner bracing removed , I didint know if they were sent out to be stamped again or what . The 1/2 lip , was it just simply sharp metal ?
Larry
Tooling up one single steel fender costs like $500,000 to $1,000,000.
Trust me:
Those bondo'd, electrical-taped, and pop-riveted-together 1960s NASCARS did not have custom-tooled fender stampings.
I know that , but maybe just stamping the lip on a stock fender was a possibility . I will stop asking question now
Quote from: daytonalo on November 24, 2007, 08:04:05 PM
I do realise they start with a stock fender with inner bracing removed , I didint know if they were sent out to be stamped again or what . The 1/2 lip , was it just simply sharp metal ?
Larry
You would hit it with as file to dull it some. but once you bent the lip up flat against the factory skin it would get some tack welds to keep it there. and being flat against the outer skin it was no threat to cut the tire of the mechanic.
Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on November 24, 2007, 08:16:31 PM
Tooling up one single steel fender costs like $500,000 to $1,000,000.
Trust me:
Those bondo'd, electrical-taped, and pop-riveted-together 1960s NASCARS did not have custom-tooled fender stampings.
Thats right, as I noted earlier that the stamped flares looked liked half a spare tire well. It may well have been just that. Not some special stamping.
At that time I think the rule was that you had to use a factory fender and was only allowed to cut as much as needed to clear the tire . It was allowed to bubble the top for tire clearance and to flare the fender over the tire not to overhang beyond the cheek of the tire.
Interesting. So you basically just got a really wide tire and modified to fit? Or were all tires the same size due to rules?
Troy
At that time I can't remember if Firestone still had tires in the then Nascar Grand National Division of not. There was a tire size limit and goodyear had tire recommendations for different tracks. Short track tires was shorter and wider than a speedway tire, Even though each had the same tire width molded on the side wall. Track width on short track cars were wider than speedway cars. Requiring wider, bigger flares on short track cars.
71 K&K pictures (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/1969_DAYTONA_NUMBER_71_03.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/1969_DAYTONA_NUMBER_71_06.jpg)
In my opinion , the # 71 is the mack daddy of all wing car stock cars !!!!!! That is my next project , a dead nuts on #71 ! Anybody have a 70 body minus int ?
That note about the spare-tire-well stamping is interesting. I know the fenders were hand done but I don't know what they actually made them out of.
And there wasn't any one consistent way to do those fenders at all. Some cars' recut front fender shapes still resembled the stock wheelwells in the front, whereas other cars' wheelwells looked totally customized to fit the tires.
Tires:
In those bais-ply days, they often ran a taller tire on the RF corner than they did on the left.
And there was definitely a short-track/superspeedway difference too.
The tires were like 86-88" around in diameter (that's how they talked about the heights back then). The tread widths were only about 8-8.5" wide on those tires, but they were tall sidewalls and they had almost no tread depth.
I thought it was sometime during the 1969 season that they went to treadless tires?
I dunno exactly. They were on slicks by the early/mid 70s, but the treads hung around a while. I don't think slicks were there in '69 but it might have been '70 or '71.
A lot of tire changes happened later than people tend to remember.
Radials have been on the streets since the late 1970s, but there were still a few Winston Cup races being run on bias-ply tires all the way into like 1990.
The Talladega tire walkout would have still been the treaded tires would it not? So that would place slicks no earlier than that race from, what September 69?
The walkout group was called the PDA .I believe it was the inagural Sept 14 1969 Talladega race in AL
http://www.racefanguide.com/editorial4.html
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this #71 charger just set a speed record this year
QuoteBONNEVILLE SALT FLATS, Utah, October 10, 2007 — Arrington Engines, Inc. today announced that Russ Wicks, has set a new stock car world speed record of 244.9 miles per hour, which has been confirmed by Guinness World Records. Wicks successfully achieved the record on Tuesday October 9 at the Bonneville Salt Flats in Northwestern Utah while driving a 2007 Dodge Charger powered by the Arrington Engines' R5P7 built to NASCAR specifications. The new record shatters Wicks' previous stock car world speed record of 222 miles per hour.
Wicks' vehicle was developed with the backing of the Dodge Motorsports Engineering Group and Arrington Engines.
"I'm totally thrilled," said Wicks. "It's an amazing feeling to push yourself to the edge and emerge victorious. I couldn't have done it without Arrington and Dodge, who have supported me in my attempt from the very beginning."
(http://www.arringtonengines.com/product_images/news_article-large_image-9.jpg)
(http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/images/russ_0009_large.jpg)
(http://www.dodge.com/motorsports/img/news/speedking.jpg)
It might be fast....but it still has no style.... :Twocents:
:iagree:
No style , but it has one thing right , 2 DOORS !!!!!
Trying to claim the record.They should be ashamed. Then they should be drug behind Bobby's car at 200 . . That is no where close to a stock body. There is not a production part on it. This record means as much to me as Barry Bonds home run record. Its took cheating to reach it. And should not be recognized :icon_smile_angry:
They can claim to out perform the previous record holders. But never come close to out classing them.
It may be a dodge but it aint a wing car. What kind of drugs are you pushing charger punk! :badidea:
Damn right
Imagine what the original NASCAR drivers thought of the wing cars--
"In my day we didn't even have full seatbelts! Look at all that fabrication! That's not stock--that's cheating!"
...Technology marches on.
It's totally cool that they used the old school font for the 71, though.
Understand that a 52 Hudson Hornet was no comparison for a 69 Daytona. And the 69 Daytona is no comparison for the new Charger of today. What I am saying is that trying to claim a record held by one class of car by using a car that would fall into a total different class is wrong. They are compairing cars that was built based on completely different rules. Claiming to have broke a record by a different type of car is stupid. Now if he had built a similar "stock" car and went out and beat the record, that would be differrent .
And the discussion has got along way from wheel wells and fender flares.
Modern NASCAR. I fail to have an opinion.
I love this look, and I've long considered a street version of a US stock car, even a mid seventies version such as... *ahem* a Monte Carlo! :rotz:
How much would the combination of wider rims, fatter rubber and considerably lower ride height affect the turning circle?
Would it make it impractical for street use? Is there enough scope in the factory lock stops to avoid tire contact?
(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/2264/stockcar12se3.jpg)
Depends on the car & specifics.
I'm not the authority on it, but I think the NASCAR wheels in that era were running a 5" backspace. (Most typical 15x7 or 15x8 muscle-era cast aluminum aftermarket mags were around 4.5" backspace.) The 5" would probably be just barely enough to clear the front balljoints and not a hair more.
It probably wouldn't seriously screw up the driveability, although the fender/inner fenderwell clearance is absolutely out the window as this whole thread demonstrates. On an old Mopar the tires would hit the subframe framerails (on the rear edge of the tire when it's turned inward there) as a stopper to the turning circle. But they already do that anyway on half the popular tire sizes as it is.
Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on November 23, 2007, 11:48:33 AM
Ironically, I don't think the NASCAR bodies were really a whole lot "lower" compared to a stock Charger. I think the fronts were always pretty close to stock height and the rears got a little raised depending on the track/setup.
It was just that the wheels/tires had gotten a lot bigger than stock, while staying underneath that nearly-stock overall body height.
Here's a pic of a stock-ish '69 C500 that has the front fenders cut-out just enough to clear the racing tires. I didn't expect to ever see this on an uncaged streetable C500 when even most caged Daytona replicas don't have the cutting done, but here it is. It seems to be exactly what you're talking about:
(http://wwnboa.org/2005darlingtonjpgs/darlington76.jpg)
I heard that somebody is making two inch dropped spindles for these cars now :shruggy: The fenders on mine were done in a hurry.If I was to do it again I would do them like the NO. 6 Daytona, more work but better looking.
The ride height of that blue C500 in the pics is within the range of the stock front suspension, but close to the bottom edge of it. Dropped spindles would probably help that height work better.
Quote from: Highbanked Hauler on December 06, 2007, 05:30:36 PM
Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on November 23, 2007, 11:48:33 AM
Ironically, I don't think the NASCAR bodies were really a whole lot "lower" compared to a stock Charger. I think the fronts were always pretty close to stock height and the rears got a little raised depending on the track/setup.
It was just that the wheels/tires had gotten a lot bigger than stock, while staying underneath that nearly-stock overall body height.
Here's a pic of a stock-ish '69 C500 that has the front fenders cut-out just enough to clear the racing tires. I didn't expect to ever see this on an uncaged streetable C500 when even most caged Daytona replicas don't have the cutting done, but here it is. It seems to be exactly what you're talking about:
(http://wwnboa.org/2005darlingtonjpgs/darlington76.jpg)
I heard that somebody is making two inch dropped spindles for these cars now :shruggy: The fenders on mine were done in a hurry.If I was to do it again I would do them like the NO. 6 Daytona, more work but better looking.
still looks awesome beautiful car
Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on December 07, 2007, 01:42:39 AM
The ride height of that blue C500 in the pics is within the range of the stock front suspension, but close to the bottom edge of it. Dropped spindles would probably help that height work better.
you got that right, I got the largest T bars from MP. at the time and its only about 1/4 inch off the bump stops so you feel every crack in the road. I keep saying it will go back stock at some point.
You could also modify a set of LCAs to have more clearance. Notch a set of LCAs for the frame/bumpstop a bit more and then reinforce the sides or something to shore them up. It's no secret that the front suspension geometry is better when they're low like that.
As it is I had to lengthen the upper control arms an inch plus to get the negative camber out of it and have some adjustment in it. In doing so it gave it more positive caster which makes all the difference in how it drives. I am going to hate to go back to the stock setup.