DodgeCharger.com Forum

Something I saved from another site.
I made some drawings for someone and thought I would share them here.

Here's a list of parts I got from waytekwire.co 

 
part # 75101 --2 ea. Bosch relays (332 019 150)

part #  75280 --2 ea. relay connectors

part # 31073  -- 12 ea. terminals (I got a few extras)

I got the wire, heatshrink and fuse from a local parts store.

Here's what I started with:







I cut the existing wires just forward of the core support.


















The new relays go in and a 30 amp fused wire added from the alternator.



















Here's how the wires connect to the relays.



















Here's the relay pin numbers to match the "connections" drawing.














You could mount the relays anywhere you please.

I mounted mine on a brace between the grille and core support.
I used existing holes so there was no drilling.
This is not the greatest pic but you can see them there.

Full credit for this information and the drawings and parts list must go to Charger1970 on the Dodge Charger.com website.

Oops.  The drawings and pics didn't come through.  I'll fix that and repost.

I'd be interested in seeing those pics!

I think I'll have to convert them to an attachment and post them separately or something.

Thanks Ghoste. I was waiting to see if Troy could pull them off the old site.

I did find the first three pics but can't seem to locate the relay pin drawings.  ???

QuoteI cut the existing wires just forward of the core support

QuoteThe new relays go in and a 30 amp fused wire added from the alternator

I have it, I just have to put it together on a host site and import the images to here.

I saved this one......


BBD

I did this upgrade. What an amazing difference. :2thumbs:

Do you need to use a heavy duty relay?
I guess what I'm saying is how many amps do 2 high beam headlights pull?

Quote from: CHARGER_FAN on July 25, 2005, 05:09:56 PM
Do you need to use a heavy duty relay?
I guess what I'm saying is how many amps do 2 high beam headlights pull?

I used 30amp relays

I have to look because somewhere I had mfg and part numbers for applicable relays to do this.

www.waytekwire.com has them
here's the link:

http://order.waytekwire.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+L094BD80F0CF5890075DF061+M37+ENG

I was on the waytek site and the lowest quantities of relay connectors I could order was 7 and the lowest number of  terminals was 47  ???    The online ordering is messed up.    Oh well - I got extras  :P

This works on more than just 70's, right?

I did this upgrade on my car, and while it really improved the brightness of the lights, there's one safety/drivability thing I'd like to mention. I follwed the upper diagrams, the ones that Charger1970 posted. These diagrams are simple, and easy to understand. I used these as a guide when I did my conversion. However, you'll notice, it only shows 1 fuse. Each relay should have its own separate fuse, as BBD's diagram shows. I recently found out why having only 1 fuse is a bad thing. I lost both high and low beams last weekend due to the vacuum doors rubbing the wiring harness, and causing chaffing of the wires. The wires would then short directly to the chassis ground and pop the fuse. It's not fun, suddenly losing all lights on a dark country road. If I had the dual fuse setup, I would have at least kept my high beams. While troubleshooting, it dawned on me (after I blew about a dozen fuses) that I could have isolated the short a little easier if I knew which circuit (hi, or low) had been shorting out. Just my 2 cents.

This is definitely a MUST upgrade on our cars though.

Jason

I definitely want to do this when then time comes.

I'd like to see how some of you did the installation.

Like where you mounted the relays.
Where you ran the extra wire, etc.

Did you try to hide things at all or is it all out in the open?

I know of one person who hid it under the battery tray.

Hi, everyone I don’t know if you all remember or if you ever seen the info that I had posted about relays in response to (Charger1970) post , on the old site here’s some of them again.

Parts info, they have the best prices on relays you‘ll find and most of the parts that you’ll need to do a lot of different electrical upgrades:
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&Webpage_ID=3&DID=7&CAT_ID=47&ObjectGroup_ID=31&SO=2

You can buy all the hard to find parts for the headlight upgrade for under $10.00, and get the fuses, wire and connectors locally:

Two Bosch relays    http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=330-070
Dual relay socket      http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=330-078
Two inline fuse holders   http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=070-675

General information about relays:
http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/relays.html
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/500-001.pdf

Click on the relay links below the paragraph on the page below and you’ll see more info than you’ll ever need about relays:
http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp

In my post I on the old site, I said as a example of what you can do with relays are, if you had six items or anything electrical to turn on in you car, you don’t need a single switch for every thing that you what to turn on, just one off   & on switch and six relays to do the switching for each item, and to add to that if your worried about running 12 volt power wires through your car and starting fires or burning things up, the easy fix is just make your switch in the car the ground wire, and there’s no 12 volt positive wires inside to short or arch on things.

Partsexpress.com is where I bought my relays and harnesses. Make sure you order everything at once, because their shipping prices are a little stiff though.

Quote from: dodgecharger-fan on August 13, 2005, 07:59:16 PM
I definitely want to do this when then time comes.

I'd like to see how some of you did the installation.

Like where you mounted the relays.
Where you ran the extra wire, etc.

Did you try to hide things at all or is it all out in the open?

Don- bring it up to Collingwood - number 4 will be done!!!!

another pic

If someone wants a cheap and plentiful supply of these relays, Chrysler vehicles in the 90's were polluted with them.  They are about 1 inch square cubes.
Under the hood they are in the power distribution center.  The PDC will have a lift off or flip up plastic cover.

Under the dash they are in or near the fuse box.  They are generically refered to as ISO relays.  The terminals are all numbered the same and perform the same function.

Here's a article about doing the relay upgrade for the headlights on a 69 Jeep wagoneer pretty good info and explains why it should be done, pay attention at the end of the article where it's explained about the voltage drop in the circuit through the factory wiring.
http://www.tworock.com/mjd/jeep/wiring/wiring.html

Quote from: Charger1970 on July 23, 2005, 12:21:39 AM

QuoteThe new relays go in and a 30 amp fused wire added from the alternator

So....All you do is cut the harness just before the 'rad support, install a relay for both low's and high's, splice both ends of the harness into the relays, then run two fused wires from the alternator into the relays?  What part of the alternator is being wired to the relays?  Also, I take it that you need a separate switch to choose between low's and high's?  Why can't the dimmer switch do that?

This is good stuff...

that was an intersting article about how the light diminishes with voltage. And i always thought my lights were pretty bright.  :icon_smile_cool:
although, i've had the problem of losing my lights on another car once, and was glad to have a backup - aftermarket foglights were installed and i used them to get home.  ;)

Excuse my dumb question but what exactly does this headlight relay upgrade do???  ??? ??? ???
Sounds like something I should know about and do for my mopars.

Quote from: Blakcharger440 on September 29, 2006, 05:14:31 PM
Excuse my dumb question but what exactly does this headlight relay upgrade do???  ??? ??? ???
Sounds like something I should know about and do for my mopars.

In a nut shell the current that goes to your headlights goes through the bulk head connector and headlight switch then to the headlights in the factory harness which is resistance and lowers the voltage going to the headlights and wears the headlight switch out prematurely, the relay upgrade bypasses the dash switch and the current goes through the relays which allows more current to the headlights.

The headlight switch is just a off on switch for the relays after the upgrade

Sounds good to me. Thanks!

Okay, my turn for questions.

1. A little fuzzy here.  This controls the headlights only.  So, does this mean that turning on the headlight switch on the dash will not also turn on the tail lights and side markers?

2. Will the floor mounted dimmer switch still work or do you install a different toggle switch for the high beam low beam?

Those parts function as normal.  What it means is that the higher amperage required to operate the filaments themselves inside the lights, does not flow through the main wiring harness and the headlight switch.  The headlight switch will use the power that is already flowing through it to operate the relays and the relays will bring the higher amperage straight off of the alternator.  This avoids the dimming at idle and a few other problems that Mopars are known for with their headlights.  It's especially useful if you put higher ouput lighting in such as halogen bulbs.
The switch and extra wiring act as a resistance for the power to flow through instead of being used to power the lighting filaments.

Oh!!! I see now!   That was a terrific description of it, I really appreciate it.  Looks like I will be doing the upgrade too!  First I have to figure out why only the right side marker lights work on my car.  You see, i bought this one in pieces not running so I have all kinds of gremlins to find and this sure sounds like a great way to get rid of that headlight realy to me! :icon_smile_tongue:

I know this is an old post.. but i just finish (almost) this upgrade.. one stupid question I have is which post on the alternator is the positive?  I'm doing some other stuff too so the car isn't running or I'd put a multimeter on it.  My guess is the one with the largest gauge wire?  (the one of the 3 that screws on)

This is on a '70.. Thanks!

Quote from: 1970Charger500 on May 18, 2007, 09:22:23 PM
I know this is an old post.. but i just finish (almost) this upgrade.. one stupid question I have is which post on the alternator is the positive?  I'm doing some other stuff too so the car isn't running or I'd put a multimeter on it.  My guess is the one with the largest gauge wire?  (the one of the 3 that screws on)

This is on a '70.. Thanks!

You guessed right.   :yesnod:

I made a complete A/C blower and headlights relay upgrade but I installed everything underdash to save from water, heat, grease, rust and dust. The red line is all along under dash. Is Feeded by the black side of ammeter studs what is the one that comes from Alt. I hidded the headlights relays on kick panel area. rest of relays are hidden underdash

Another interesting stuff is I re-routed all the terminals, no cut any wire. Just removed the right plug terminal and inserted on relay plug. Then used a new wire same color with new terminals between relay and original location of the one removed before to reset the original route and that's all.

In that way I have everything protected and hidden. No visible relays.

To give you a guide of colors:

Big red wire all along is the one that feeds all the relays with a fuse link ( blue )

red and violet wires are the low and high beams. Green on that side is the signal coming from headlights switch.
brown and dark green on center are high speed ( byapssing speeds resistor ) and heater speed blower. Plug is the A/C control switch
at the right side of diagram, tan and light green are low and med blower speed. These wires comes from lever A/C switch. Green is the one that runs directly to blower that feeds blower once speed is setted on lever switch.

This diagram is from 3rd gen, but works to any model.

As stated, this way to go makes NO CUT ANY WIRE. Just remove terminals from plug and insert on relay plug. Then add a same color wire to restore the wire removed from original plug already with relay upgrade. With this way you get also the right reading on ammeter as far you use the black side of ammeter.

To get it good and safe you need a charging wiring upgrade. DON'T DO IT with ONLY stock charging wiring through bulkhead. You need to get the parallel charging wires throught firewall to work together with stock wires

I can give more details if you need. just ask.

A/C Plugs are just a guide even the right shape. I can't recall right now the right wires cavities location, but you got the idea.

Sorry If I made now a big diagram, more than I usually posted, but now I have a 17" monitor 1280x1024 pixel definition

My turn for a dumb question. I remember this thread from the old board. I was going to do this conversion back then but I thought it was mentioned that you had to modify and drill through the bulkhead connector. Obviously after looking through this thread that is not the case. What mod was I thinking about? Or is it just CRS kicking in.
From the diagrams it looks like all 14 gauge wiring. How about the wires running from the alt. to the in line fuses, 14 gauge also?

Another interesting stuff is I re-routed all the terminals, no cut any wire.


Yes,i,m agree with this.
I did my relay headlight conversion last summer.
I built a connector to get the current fron the headlights harness ,cuting a H4 lamp welding wires on the interior therminals an refilling it with a hot glue gun,to isulate them.
Here is a pic:

(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6771/headlightconnectorid2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

What a  difference since i installed the relays.
What a difference..

Just finished doing the upgrade. What a difference. I also upgraded to Halogen headlights since I have no clue how long these current bulbs have been in the car.
This was so easy a caveman could do it. :yesnod:
I liked what Ghoste had mentioned about hiding the relays under the battery tray.
In the first pic I have prewired the two relays making sure I left plenty of wire. I then sprayed some rubberized undercoating on the bottom of the relays to keep them waterproof. I taped off the rest of the relay to protect from overspray.
In the second pic I have the relays mounted under the battery tray. I cut the two headlight wires between the starter relay and battery and made the connections there. The two feeds from the alternator and the grounds run forward up between the battery tray and the inner fender.

OK guys.. just now got finished with this conversion.  before the conversion my headlight motor didn't work (1970 = non-vacuum) probably because my headlight switch was bad.  I did this relay upgrade and had my switch refurb'd by performance car graphics ($28 bucks).  cranked it up, hit the headlights and was amazed when the headlight doors opened and the lights came on.  even my dash lights work now.

BUT.. My headlights won't turn off!  turn the switch off of and nothing happens, turn the car off & back on with the switch off.. nothing, lights are still open, headlight doors still open.  My guess is the relays are wired slightly wrong?

any ideas????

Thanks,
Paul

Quote from: 1970Charger500 on May 30, 2007, 06:59:40 PM
OK guys.. just now got finished with this conversion.  before the conversion my headlight motor didn't work (1970 = non-vacuum) probably because my headlight switch was bad.  I did this relay upgrade and had my switch refurb'd by performance car graphics ($28 bucks).  cranked it up, hit the headlights and was amazed when the headlight doors opened and the lights came on.  even my dash lights work now.

BUT.. My headlights won't turn off!  turn the switch off of and nothing happens, turn the car off & back on with the switch off.. nothing, lights are still open, headlight doors still open.  My guess is the relays are wired slightly wrong?

any ideas????

Thanks,
Paul

I bet it has something to do with the "concealed headlight relay" under the dash...    it powers both the motor for the headlight doors and the headlights themselves...     sounds like it is getting a constant 12V...      that 12V gets directed thought your headlight switch...     maybe it was improperly referbed ?

ah.. I unplugged that 'headlight relay' under the dash when i was doing all of this.. I bet I just hooked it up wrong; I'll check that after work.
Thanks!

We did the head;ight relay mod on the General Lee before doing the Bandit Run thing a few weeks ago. That mod is essential! I can't believe how big a difference it made. The car has real, steady, bright headlights now.

well.. more info.
My neighbor helped me today on this and we eliminated a lot of stuff but didn't fix it.  When my high beams are on everything works perfect.  but with low beams on the headlight doors will open & come on, but when the switch is turned off, nothing happens.  the doors stay open and the lights stay on.  if you turn the car off and back on (with the headlight switch still off and the low beams on) the lights and doors turn on/open.

so i suppose it IS either in the dash relay or the dimmer switch?  I checked and I didn't unplug the dash relay when doing this so i'm pretty sure it's hooked up right.  the only thing I didn't try is switch the green and blue wires that go to that relay.

I suppose i'll try that tomorrow.  any other suggestions?
oh, and my lights don't really seem to be real steady; i can't really tell for sure until i drive it at night though, haven't done that yet.

Thanks again.

Quote from: Rolling_Thunder on May 31, 2007, 12:17:53 AM

I bet it has something to do with the "concealed headlight relay" under the dash...    it powers both the motor for the headlight doors and the headlights themselves...     

Quote

The concealed headlight relay does not power the headlight bulbs.  The power that comes out of the headlight switch in the light green wire goes to the relay and turns it on, the relay then switches power from the wire to the headlight door motor that closes the doors to the wire to the headlight door motor  that opens the headlight doors.

The power then continues along the light green wire to the floor dimmer switch which directs that power to the low or high beams.

I would disconnect the light green wire from the concealed headlight door relay.  If the lights stay on the problem is possibly in the headlight switch.  If the problem is fixed then for some reason the relay is putting power into the light green wire which it should not be doing.

Quote from: 1970Charger500 on May 31, 2007, 08:59:03 PM
well.. more info.
My neighbor helped me today on this and we eliminated a lot of stuff but didn't fix it.  When my high beams are on everything works perfect.  but with low beams on the headlight doors will open & come on, but when the switch is turned off, nothing happens.  the doors stay open and the lights stay on.  if you turn the car off and back on (with the headlight switch still off and the low beams on) the lights and doors turn on/open.

so i suppose it IS either in the dash relay or the dimmer switch?  I checked and I didn't unplug the dash relay when doing this so i'm pretty sure it's hooked up right.  the only thing I didn't try is switch the green and blue wires that go to that relay.

I suppose i'll try that tomorrow.  any other suggestions?
oh, and my lights don't really seem to be real steady; i can't really tell for sure until i drive it at night though, haven't done that yet.

Thanks again.

um.............


Im not familiar with the 73 charger however....

Most relays have 5 inputs/outputs

2 of which power the coil

1 of which connects directly to the battery.

1 of which is the normally closed (no power to coil the connection is complete .... In our situation you should have nothing connected to it).

1 of which is normally open (No power to the coil and the connection incomplete)


I suspect you somehow have used all the terminals on the relay and this is causing your madness. You only need and want 4 connections to be made.


I dont understand how or why the headlight motors are even part of the equation. Once again Im not familiar with the 3rd gens...

But it seems like the motor control would be a separate circuit all to itself.

Assuming Im correct (3rd gen guys?)  I would pull the new relays and get the motors to work correctly first. Then add the relays back and make the headlights work after.


Oh.... and a wealth of info on relays and specifically the very popular Bosch automotive relay.

http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm

read my post of the upgrade with the headlight motor!

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,8077.0.html

John Mac

Cant believe i have been reading this orum or over a year and just found this.  Im guessing it is sae to say its good for 69 charger?   I had issues last night with my headlights turngin on and off.

Im guessing its ether the foot dimmer switch or a connection some where that is loose. 

If you have headlights on for long periodsof time im guessing this up grade will put less strain on the light switch as well. 

ill print out the parts list and first diagram to do this tonight!~    any suggestions with the headlight thing let me know

:cheers: ocean city, md   2 days 15 hours 25 minutes  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

What Guage wire is used for the upgrade to the harness 

12ga 14ga ?

can all those parts be found a the the local hardware store ?

I use 12ga wire to pull power from the source to the relays.

Well i ended up using 10 ga for my wiring.  I also replaced the dimmer switch , put all new connections on, new ground connections and wires, and eliminated the bulkhead connection for the headlights.  since they will crappy at best.  Works great , hopefully i can put a load on it tonight!  1 day 16 hours till cruzin ocean city.   see ya there!   :cheers:

Got mine wired today.  Didn't have to cut or splice any existing wires. Put everything under the kick panel (fits good) and went sorta by Nacho's idea  :cheers:.  Used identical color wire from another parts harness so everything was correct color coordinated.  Just have to run the alt wire.  Instead of running 2 wires I'm just going to run one and split it into the 2 fuses since only one of them is going to be on at any given time.  Here's a pic.

:thumbs:

thats exactly what I made with the exception I took the power from ammeter stud once upgraded from alt to ammeter throught firewall... BUT I would use a relay plug like this:

(https://www.racerpartswholesale.com/images/large/FAS-200-001.jpg)

instead loosen terminals that could get accidentally lossen causing a short. Replace the wiring you made into the plug replacing the wires coming with the plug. Needs to use terminals with tabs to make that, like this ( tab slot is barelly visible but is there ):

(http://stude.vonadatech.com/images/Headlights/SpadeConnector.jpg)

or this:

(http://www.jimruffi.com/images/shopping/female_spade.JPG)

the plugs I used hooks ( slides ) one into the other and keep both together, like the one pictured but there are several kinds of those Even ceramic!!!

I'm not real sure of my amp gauge for now or I would have done the other upgrade too. Someone installed an after market amp gauge mounted under the dash with wires that are taped up to the harness amp. wires.  I found the connections loose and terminal ends burnt at the aftermarket connections.  I want to go through the rest of the wiring before I do much more with it. I didn't get any connection plugs with the relays. Radio Shack was out of them and I needed to get going or what your saying would be the best route to go.  I used their insulated connectors and some heat shrink on top of that. The slide/push fit is very tight on these so it would take a real effort to come loose. Maybe down the road when more time is avail., I'll redo it with the plugs as you stated. Thanks for the help :2thumbs:.

Thought I'd post a shot of what the aftermarket amp gauge had behind it as reason for others to check theirs when they get something new they didn't install.  Sure looks like it has had some heat issues on top of being a little loose. May have been part of my dimming and dash lights issue   :shruggy:: Decided for now to just take it out and join the wires until I make the new dash with a complete set of new aftermarket gauges.

Quote from: oldcarnut on September 10, 2009, 11:42:40 PM
Thought I'd post a shot of what the aftermarket amp gauge had behind it as reason for others to check theirs when they get something new they didn't install.  Sure looks like it has had some heat issues on top of being a little loose. May have been part of my dimming and dash lights issue   :shruggy:: Decided for now to just take it out and join the wires until I make the new dash with a complete set of new aftermarket gauges.

Loose nuts could and in most cases will create a heat issue.

Ok, having beaten my charging system demons...for NOW, I'm going to finally get at this headlight relay job that I should've done years ago.  

So correct me if I'm wrong, but you cut the wires (low and high) going to the lights just forward of the 'rad support, install relays, then connect the wires into the relays.  Then, you also fashion a wire from the 'alt that will be fused, and then connect in to the new relays.  Did I get it right?  Please advise me if you guys think I got it wrong or have any ideas that might help.  

Some other points come to mind: the alternator output stud is getting really busy/crowded.  So far I've got 2 connectors that run to my starter relay (to handle the 90 amps of the Nippon 'alt), and the original connector for the output.  Now, I'm going to have to install yet another connector to power the relays.  Also, are we really only dealing with 4 wires including ground that connect to the relays?  

Thanks for your help guys...

Edit:  Just finished installing the low beam side, and all I can say is WOW.  I forgot to install the inline 30 amp fuse so I'll take care of that.  Is it really necessary?  I also forgot to install the high side because I was so excited, lol.  I'm not too worried about the highs because I don't use 'em anyway...

Quote from: myk on December 06, 2009, 01:55:07 PM
So correct me if I'm wrong, but you cut the wires (low and high) going to the lights just forward of the 'rad support, install relays, then connect the wires into the relays.  Then, you also fashion a wire from the 'alt that will be fused, and then connect in to the new relays.  Did I get it right?  Please advise me if you guys think I got it wrong or have any ideas that might help.

I didn't want to cut the wire harness so I installed them at the dimmer and they're behind the kick panel out of site.

In other words you just attached new wires to the dimmer and ran them out where they needed to go.  That's really smart, I shoulda' thought about that route...

Go 2 wires with 2 fuses. Another member did this and wound up being stuck on a dark road with no lights. The fuse blew and since the lows and high were run off that 1 fuse he had nada. If you use 2 wires with separate fuses, if the lows blow you can still turn on your highs.

Quote from: FLG on December 06, 2009, 07:41:37 PM
Go 2 wires with 2 fuses. Another member did this and wound up being stuck on a dark road with no lights. The fuse blew and since the lows and high were run off that 1 fuse he had nada. If you use 2 wires with separate fuses, if the lows blow you can still turn on your highs.

Thanks for reminding me.  I'll get on that.  I'm so excited I want to take it out and see my new/old lights perform with my Nippondenso based charging system but you're right-safety first.

Also, I guessed which wire from the bulkhead powered the low's, it was the purple wire.  Now, I'm guessing it's the red wire that powers the high's? 

And one more question: No matter where I put the relays I can't help but think it's vulnerable, what with 4 naked terminals and connections.  What did some of you guys use or do to cover these things up? 

Read back into the page 3 posts around the middle and you'll see a couple of ways for the terminals.  I also used 2 separate fuses and if you look carefully you'll  see it in the pic.  I'm still using the original alt except I put in Halo bulbs but depending what else is running, it may still get a slight decrease but nothing like it did before the mod.

Hmm...That kickpanel deal you did is such a better idea.  Well, like you at that time, I just had to get this running so at least I know it all works.  I still have to relay the high's so I'm not done. 

 

Quote from: oldcarnut on December 06, 2009, 08:53:28 PM
depending what else is running, it may still get a slight decrease but nothing like it did before the mod.

So, even with all of our 'mods and improvements, we still get a slight decrease?   I'm running the 70's style electronic regulator, with the 90amp Nippondenso 'alt, with two 10 gauge wires feeding directly to the starter relay, as well as the headlamp relay that we've been talking about, and I still get a drop in voltage/performance when the lights, brakes and idling in gear is going on.  Is that unavoidable?

Oh by the way I had one casualty:  I was just standing there, with the car and lights running, admiring my handywork when suddenly big puffs of smoke started billowing out of the engine bay.  I hop over all of my tools just to reach the ignition switch inside (I have a push-button start coupled with an ignition toggle switch) and try to shut the car off.  So here I am, thinking that I probably fried the entire system when I realized that my voltmeter's + wire had shorted to the alternator case.  Reckless, reckless I tell you!!!

In any case, thanks for your input everyone!

Quote from: myk on December 06, 2009, 07:48:04 PM

Also, I guessed which wire from the bulkhead powered the low's, it was the purple wire.  Now, I'm guessing it's the red wire that powers the high's? 

yes

Quote from: myk on December 06, 2009, 07:48:04 PM
And one more question: No matter where I put the relays I can't help but think it's vulnerable, what with 4 naked terminals and connections.  What did some of you guys use or do to cover these things up? 

yes and I told to oldcarnut about the advice to use a relay socket. In that way you are saving that AND you cna replace relay without take care about where it was every wire plugged.

check this reply:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,168.msg675013.html#msg675013

he took that Idea from me when I posted about.

I think will run to take a pic of one of the relays locations on my car and post.

ok, here the pics...

first: the STOCK LOOK BELOW THE DASH at A/C box. I had to use this section because the eassy acces. Didn't want to remove the kick panel, but will work the same.

second... PULLING OUT THE HARNESS you'll find out the relays hidded back/above the glove box liner. There you see the HOT buss wire ( red ), the pigtail coming from harness, and ground to relays ( took from AC box bracket bolt ). you can notice the wires coming and going from relays ARE SAME COLORS. Those are the originals arriving to speed resistor were moved to relay socket to the INPUT, then the OUTPUT already "relayed" runing back to resistor with SAME color. Advantage on this si the color will tell you what's teh relay function. On this case you can see low ( light brown ) and mid ( light green ) speed on blower.

third... THIS IS THE BUSS WIRE. With a bullet terminal since these are the best plugs to high consumption devices. Then the MALE bullet works like a splice to both relays. IF I NEED/WANT to attach another relay for whatever reason, I don't need to access to the BUSS wire. simply attach a third wire on a new male bullet terminal out of the harnesss, on a bench. Terminals are heatshrink tube protected ( double ).

I don't have to take care about the load on teh buss wire BECAUSE NEVER ALL RELAYS WILL BE WORKING AT THE SAME TIME. Max three relays will be working... one headlight beam, since never are both energized at the same time, and one blower speed set. I state max three because the low speed is allways energized by default when turning on the AC. If you set mid or high speeds, the low speed will keep energized but by OHMS LAW the LOAD will be runing for the higher speed, cause the resistor offer less resistance to this one. No load on low relay at this moment.

BTW sockets I used hooks/slides one on the other one to keep them together. Is the same I pictured on the reply I pasted

Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on December 07, 2009, 09:57:17 AM

yes and I told to oldcarnut about the advice to use a relay socket. In that way you are saving that AND you cna replace relay without take care about where it was every wire plugged.

check this reply:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,168.msg675013.html#msg675013

Yep, he gave some very helpful advice.  :cheers:  I haven't rewired in the socket type yet and still use the separate individual relays but eventually after the rest of the project is done it will get done.  I thought that info was back in the thread where he put the link to but I do have his emails that had a lot of good info. I can forward to you if he don't mind that would save him from writing it up again.

hello fellas ...my turn to upgrade with relays

  so , if i want to do this under my dash ,is it only the 2 wires at the high and low  dimmer switch  on the floor that i will be  tampering with?

 But I never drive my 70 charger at night.....No kidding

huh?

Quote from: roger01 on July 17, 2010, 08:21:03 AM
hello fellas ...my turn to upgrade with relays

  so , if i want to do this under my dash ,is it only the 2 wires at the high and low  dimmer switch  on the floor that i will be  tampering with?

I'll reopen mine tonight after work and see if I can shoot some better pics for you.

Quote from: martinihenry on August 13, 2005, 02:24:33 PM
I did this upgrade on my car, and while it really improved the brightness of the lights, there's one safety/drivability thing I'd like to mention. I follwed the upper diagrams, the ones that Charger1970 posted. These diagrams are simple, and easy to understand. I used these as a guide when I did my conversion. However, you'll notice, it only shows 1 fuse. Each relay should have its own separate fuse, as BBD's diagram shows. I recently found out why having only 1 fuse is a bad thing. I lost both high and low beams last weekend due to the vacuum doors rubbing the wiring harness, and causing chaffing of the wires. The wires would then short directly to the chassis ground and pop the fuse. It's not fun, suddenly losing all lights on a dark country road. If I had the dual fuse setup, I would have at least kept my high beams. While troubleshooting, it dawned on me (after I blew about a dozen fuses) that I could have isolated the short a little easier if I knew which circuit (hi, or low) had been shorting out. Just my 2 cents.

This is definitely a MUST upgrade on our cars though.

Jason

Another must is using self-resetting circuit breakers instead of fuses. This will let you know you have a problem by flashing the lights on and off as the breaker resets after a short.

http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/cgi-bin/ryderfp/products/product_detail.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@2065995208.1279472059@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccccadeklmfiidecfkmcgfmdfoldflm.0&oid=143202

great thanks

Quote from: roger01 on July 17, 2010, 08:21:03 AM
hello fellas ...my turn to upgrade with relays

  so , if i want to do this under my dash ,is it only the 2 wires at the high and low  dimmer switch  on the floor that i will be  tampering with?

If I'm thinking correctly about what your asking I'm saying yes.  The picture I posted earlier was about the same as I would take again.  If you remove the hi/lo wires from the dimmer connection plug for the relay hookup and use a separate set to cut for the dimmer to relay then you won't have to cut your existing harness.  Some of the others mentioned better ways for using relay plugs connection than what I did and mine will be redone later on after I get the body work done and dash removed for restoring.

thats all i needed to know thanks ... i kinda thought so but i always like to double check when it comes to wiring
    thanks

Quote from: roger01 on July 17, 2010, 08:21:03 AM
hello fellas ...my turn to upgrade with relays

Good move.  Have you done the aftermarket alternator upgrade also? 

Thanks for bringing this thread up again-I never hooked up my high's.  Now's as good a time as any...

i will certainly be doing this...
:2thumbs:

yup ,ive done the alternater and voltage regulator upgrade and distributor to electronic ..next is the running of paralell wires to the amp guage in the dash.......but its just too dam hot up here to work  ...
   who said its cold in canada ...

How many 'amps is your 'alt rated at? I wanted to run 130 or more but I chickened out and left it at 90...

mine 90 aswell

The Charger was prowling tonight, and I guess my 90 'amp 'alt and upgraded headlight relays were so bright people were flashing their hi's at me.  I can imagine their surprise when I flashed my hi's back at them.  Man these stock halogens are BRIGHT and I haven't even gone HID or anything trick like that yet...

Quote from: myk on July 25, 2010, 05:44:28 AM
The Charger was prowling tonight, and I guess my 90 'amp 'alt and upgraded headlight relays were so bright people were flashing their hi's at me.  I can imagine their surprise when I flashed my hi's back at them.  Man these stock halogens are BRIGHT and I haven't even gone HID or anything trick like that yet...

You may want to check to see if the beam directions are adjusted correctly.  If you put yourself behind the wheel in the cars of the oncoming traffic, especially if they are elderly,  it could potentially be an accident waiting to happen when someone looses their ability to see everything on the road ahead of them and gets partially blinded because the car coming at them has bright lights pointing at them.
I gotta admit for myself that even at age 50 I can't take that kind the brightness on two lane roads as well as I used to and have to move my focus more to the side of the road when I get someone with very bright lights coming at me.  I can't stand those really bright almost blue headlights and more so when their fog lights are on too.  When behind me and pointing up making like I got floodlights hooked in the back glass, I start to feel the road rage creeping up :flame:.  Ok enough of the rant  :rant:, and meant to be just a general comment to throw out there but point was that while it's great to see brighter and further make sure the other guy can too  :cheers:  

heres  an update of my headlight relay harness

now of coarse ive got it all hooked up and it doesnt work ....ther is a draw at the amp guage but no headlight can someone verify that what i have done is correct
    ive taken the original wire off the high beam selector and plugged it into the relay(orange)
    then i took a fresh wire and plugged it into the dimmer on the floor and back into the relay(red)

did this both with hgih beam of dimmer on floor and lowbeam of dimmer on floor
    have good ground,and have power at new 12 v wire to alt terminal .....why?

Here's what I have I hope I explained it right without pictures. I think you have the TO/From dimmer backwards

From the dimmer  (70 RR)
New made Purple/white tracer to 86 1st Relay
New made Red to 86 2nd Relay

From the Relay
1st Relay 85 to Ground
30 to Power
87 to original dimmer Purple/White Tracer for light

2nd Relay 85 to Ground
30 to Power
87 to original dimmer Red for light

so 87 plugs to dimmer switch on floor one for hi gh  and one for low
   in picture ,the circled blue to dimmer on floor

Quote from: roger01 on July 25, 2010, 12:54:55 PM
so 87 plugs to dimmer switch on floor one for hi gh  and one for low
   in picture ,the circled blue to dimmer on floor

Nope, 87 plugs into the relay going to the light.  That would be the wire that originally connected to the dimmer.  You just moved it.

87   
is  the pin on the relay ....so where does it connect too

Like this.  The new harness you made up goes from the dimmer to the relay.  I can't remember at the moment whether the purple is low or high so my pic coloring may be off but the wires run the same.  This how I did it so not to cut the original wires

edited

thanks for hanging in there for me i had the original dimmer wire plugging into   pin 86 ....i switched the 2 and now works fine
     i dont know why this always happens ,, i can double check till im blue in the face and i still get it wrong ,HATE ELECTRICAL
    thanks again

ok i let it run for about 20 mins with lights on ,,,everything seems fine
        headlight switch stays cool
        the new relay does warm up as the original dimmer switch wire does aswell ,but im pretty sure a little heat is normal
         isnt it  :-\

I did this to my 72 a few years ago. Today I just did my 71 and of course there is a problem.
First off I like the idea of mounting it under the dash out of the elements. After searching for a good spot i made a custom bracket for the relays and attached it to two of the bolts that hold the brake assembly to the fire wall, worked out fine except for the following.
When the high beams are on everything is fine. If the low beams are on the lights come on as soon as I turn the key to the on and run position. This will happen with the headlight switch in the off position. As soon as i hit the high's the lights go off (when the switch is in the off position). The light work great otherwise. I triple checked all the wiring, I'm wondering if it could be my floor switch?

This is more Nacho's field but I would have thought that you shouldn't be getting any power to the floor switch to run either lights until the headlight switch is turned on (key on or off).  Seems like your getting power to the lights from some other place than the light switch or maybe the light switch is going bad and getting power bypassed.  Roger01 glad it worked out for ya. 

It doesn't do it when I have the wiring run the standard way. Maybe a problem with one of the relays. I suppose i could reverse the relays and see if the problem happens with the high beams instaed, that would tell me it's the relay.

Quote from: roger01 on July 25, 2010, 11:43:39 AM
now of coarse ive got it all hooked up and it doesnt work ....ther is a draw at the amp guage but no headlight can someone verify that what i have done is correct
    ive taken the original wire off the high beam selector and plugged it into the relay(orange)
    then i took a fresh wire and plugged it into the dimmer on the floor and back into the relay(red)

the original wire ( red and purple ) running to dimmer is plugged into an OUTPUT from dimmer.... Green wire is what is the only input to dimmer what is just a selector. So you need to get this dimmer cavity into the relay being the trigger input ( 86 ) to the relay with a fresh wire...

The wire coming in to the dimmer that you removed from dimmer ( purple and red ) is the wire running to forward harness, so this wire is the one what will plug into the 87 terminal at relay, what is the RELAY OUTPUT to feed the headlights already relay powered.

Quote from: NHCharger on July 25, 2010, 04:43:31 PM
I did this to my 72 a few years ago. Today I just did my 71 and of course there is a problem.
First off I like the idea of mounting it under the dash out of the elements. After searching for a good spot i made a custom bracket for the relays and attached it to two of the bolts that hold the brake assembly to the fire wall, worked out fine except for the following.
When the high beams are on everything is fine. If the low beams are on the lights come on as soon as I turn the key to the on and run position. This will happen with the headlight switch in the off position. As soon as i hit the high's the lights go off (when the switch is in the off position). The light work great otherwise. I triple checked all the wiring, I'm wondering if it could be my floor switch?

mmmm... it shouldn't be related with ign swith on any form.

where did you take the power from to the 30 terminal ?

just revising...

85 is ground

30 is constant POWERED source ( batt/alt... alt to keep the correct amm reading. Amm stud on alt side works if you already have charging wires upgraded )

86 is the trigger coming out from dimmer ( red and violet ), being the FRESH wire coming from dimmer if you are not cutting this wire and just relocating terminals.

87 must be the wire ORIGINALLY COMING FROM dimmer, going inside the underdash harness to get the bulkhead and feed the fronts.

Quote from: roger01 on July 25, 2010, 02:22:11 PM
ok i let it run for about 20 mins with lights on ,,,everything seems fine
        headlight switch stays cool
        the new relay does warm up as the original dimmer switch wire does aswell ,but im pretty sure a little heat is normal
         isnt it  :-\

So how are your lights performing?  What about the electrical/charging system?

Im going to add a few things that might help.


Below is a diagram of a relay used in a similar scenario.
While not an exact diagram of our situation its a good reference point of  its general use and operation.


(http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142838/463984.gif)



Below is a Video about relays.

The "5th" connector talked about in the video is the "87A" connection (which you might have or not have on your relay).
Its useless in this application, and should be forgotten about and have nothing connected to it.
For the curious....   It will provide power from the "30" connection (battery in our case) when the "86" connection does NOT have power.

The "HHO cell"  icon in the video is the headlight in our case.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46nlei-2e4k


Hope this helps.

Where does the voltage regulator fit into this schematic?
An un-regulated alt can put out 15+ volts, what does this do to the life of a 12V bulb??

Also, doesn't that high of a un-regulated voltage going to the battery cause problems?

Thanks

Quote from: jlatessa on July 30, 2010, 08:15:06 AM
Where does the voltage regulator fit into this schematic?
An un-regulated alt can put out 15+ volts, what does this do to the life of a 12V bulb??

Also, doesn't that high of a un-regulated voltage going to the battery cause problems?

Thanks

Are you talking about the charging system?  I, and I'm pretty sure 2Gunz and the rest, are running voltage regulators-an electronic one from a '70 and up Mopar charging system of course.  Naturally, you should never run without a 'VR.  As for the accessories, the point of these high 'amp upgrades and relay installations isn't to give them 14 or 15 volts, but to give them a rock solid, constant 12 volts, even if the lights, brake, AC, radio, or whatever is running even during idling, which is what automotive electrical systems need to be happy and which is something the stock system couldn't do fresh from the factory...

The voltage regulator is not part of this circuit.

And as MYK stated I do have one, its a 70 and up electronic one.

The mopar electronic system IMHO was junk when new and just passable as able to do the job.

Add in 40 years of wear and tear and a few modern things such as electric fans or sound system and its in way over its head.


My goal isnt high voltage readings, just a car that charges at idle and able to handle some modern stuff in it.

I understand, but I see so many of these schematics showing a direct wire from alt. output terminal to a terminal that goes directly to the batt. positive.

I know later alts. were internally regulated but none of these diagrams address that distinction.

What am I missing? :scratchchin:

Thanks, Joe Latessa

I have done a relay upgrade in another car, but ran the high-current carrying wire from batt. positive to relay.

This was in an 80's car for brighter headlights and was very effective.

Thanks
Joe

By feeding anything off the battery no matter what you charge it with, you basically trick the car into thinking your battery is discharged. The battery is there to start the engine, not run components. The charging system is not designed to charge a dead battery, just top off the amp drain from starting. I spent a lot of time working out what is wrong with these old Mopar systems. I have very good friends, one who owns a battery supply company and another who owns a starter and alternator rebuilding shop and along with help here I came to find the weak point is the old alternator ability to charge at idle speed. The design is old school and very limited, the fix is a modern Denso unit. Which one depends on what you have in the car, a 60 amp is fine for a stock set up, add electric fans, big stereo amps or any other added draws and you go to a 90-120 amp Denso, not so much for total output but greater idle output capacity. I am running a Denso 120 amp (Mancini's kit) on my Charger now for 2-3 months with no other modification to the wiring system, no extra wires or relays anywhere and I have bright lights, fast blower and wipers at idle with all on maximum. I was careful to clean, check and repair the bulkhead, dash and all other wiring connections. Yes even the stock Amp gauge works, my radio is out so I can literally reach in my dash and put my hand on the wiring and gauge to check heat build up. The Denso I'm using can and will throw 40 amps on idle at the gauge and on to the battery if it is low from cranking too much. It heats up fast then cools down, the studs for the Amp gauge are clinched not clinched and soldered and I think on an old gauge that is a factor. Anything added to any system needs to be added off the alt. not the battery, before reaching the gauge. I have decided as I do any repairs or add on/modifications they will not only be crimped properly but soldered. It is also important to know the loads and size the wires and connections for that load. The main feed in the bulkhead is a size 10 wire that is attached to a connector the same size as all of the other connectors in the bulkhead, it is at best small and undersized for it's job. Find Nacho's upgrade solutions and apply them to your car so you don't fry anything.  :2thumbs:   

OK guys, be patient with me, it's been a long time since I've actually been into the engine compartment of a 70 RT.
Ours (my son's and mine) is ready for paint soon and is but a shell.

We've been collecting necessary parts for about 8 years.

Regarding my questions on all these mods;
           1. On a '70, does alt. voltage go directly to the batt? And is 15+ volts too much?
           2. What does regulated voltage supply, instruments and everything else?
           3. If my alt. is pushing 15 volts to the battery, is the battery output what goes through the voltage reg.?

Thanks Joe Latessa

PS bear in mind this is an externally regulated alt.

OK Joe here we go. 1:No and it depends on condition of battery. Once started power comes from alt through bulkhead and to main splice feeding the "run circuits" of the fuse block just after the main splice that same (black) wire ends at the + side of the amp gauge. The other side of the amp gauge has a (red) wire that runs back through the bulkhead to the Hot post on the starter relay, from there to the battery. If your battery is not charged up to full capacity it will draw power from that red wire and your amp gauge will sense it and show a + amp reading till stabilized. Keep in mind the amp gauge reads - when or if the car is drawing power (any) from the battery greater than the output of the alt. like when something is on with the engine off. (12 volts is kinda misleading it's more like 13.5 or 14 volts needed actually so 15 is high...but not much) 2: The voltage regulator on the firewall controls alt output voltage/amps, The voltage REDUCER on the back of the gauge cluster drops volts to 5 volts for fuel, temp and pressure gauges only. 3: No, the voltage regulator is triggered by low voltage to send tiny fast pulses of electricity to the diodes in the alt that excite the alt to increase output. Battery output SHOULD only be for starting the car or powering something if the motor is off. My system, working proper now, it acts like this...I start my car, the amp gauge reads + amp flow till the power I used starting the car is replaced, then it settles back to center. Now my car is running and I turn something on, there is a jump to + and as the regulator and alt. react to this new demand for more power it drops back to center rather quickly. I can keep turning things on and the same thing happens every time, always ending up with my gauge reading centered. With all things correct (the factory set-up) all the amp gauge is doing is letting me know is that my system is reacting to my demand for power and I am not drawing power from my battery to feed that demand. Like I use to with the old factory alt. at idle with anything on other than lights, the gauge would read - as the battery tried to supply power that the alt. could not keep up with. Increase RPM's and alt output now increases, the gauge now jumps up into + as the system will try to not only power whats "on" but also replace the power the battery "gave up" running stuff at idle. That back and forth interaction is what cooks amp gauges and bulkhead connectors/wire as they just keep getting hotter and hotter. A weak battery will never top off and give a constant + reading at the gauge, the weaker the battery the greater the reading. Crappy connections anywhere overwork the system as they make heat as a resister would and as the heat increases the resistance grows. There is nothing "wrong" with the system as designed other than old alt design was very low output at low RPM's. Age of the system is the biggest problem now, corroded connections, baked wire, poorly done repairs, improper modifications and misunderstanding the concepts applied give it all a bad name. Nacho has some well explained, illustrated upgrades that can make use of the factory system and if done carefully and properly make the whole thing bullet proof. The key is a good battery and an alt that charges well at idle RPM.     

Much clearer now thanks to you, for some reason I had the wrong understanding of the regulator's job. :cheers:

I have been absorbing everyone's input on these forums and wish to thanks everyone for their time and expertise and willingness to share.
I was an original owner of an A12 RR and did a bunch of drag racing in the 70s sponsored by a Willoughby OH dealership.

A lot of my knowledge is now obsolete regarding cam grind theory etc., and, as you can tell, electrics.

We have a 71 440 HP engine with the big rods and steel crank. We finished putting together with a original 69 6 bbl manifold, reworked carbs, the old purple cam (284/284, .485 lift) Larger valves with a bowl contour and Hooker Supercomp headers.

Have all the chrome done ,except for buffing the front and rear window and wheelwell trim.

Rebuilt the heater box, made a solid state voltage reducer from Digikey parts and welded the ammeter studs.
Rebuilt ticktoc tach and a lot of other little pieces.

Hoping to get the chassis back soon so I have some good weather to put the pieces together.

Again, thanks loads!!!

JOe

I think part of your problem is there are two schools of thought on how the charging system should work.

I'm going to break them down real fast for you and others.



1. Alternator is connected to the AMP gauge which is then connected to the battery.  (This is the stock charging setup)  
           All accessory's MUST be connected on the alternator side of the charging system for the gauge correctly.
           This is Nacho's setup.


Pros -          
                   
Amp gauge works correctly.
Car retains its stock look.


Cons-

After jump starting it may be possible to fry the AMP gauge and/or wiring in the car.      (Basically a 90+ amp alt suddenly trying to charge a battery on wiring that was designed to handle 40 or so.)
Wires and connections need to be is perfect shape.
If your amp gauge stops working so does your car.
Possible amperage output from the alternator exceeds the amount it was designed to handle.


2.   Alternator is connected directly to the battery.  Amp gauge is bypassed and a voltage gauge is installed.   This is my setup.


Pros-

A dead amp gauge wont leave you stranded. (if the amp gauge dies you lose all power to the car).
Easier wiring of addons because they can be connected to the battery. (please add fuses!)
Brighter headlights.
Jumping a dead battery isn't an issue.
Less headaches with old wiring as your only asking the wiring to do what it was designed to do.


Cons    

Car loses the stock look.
No amp gauge.  (to me this really isn't a much of a con. All you really need to know is if the alternator is working. A volt gauge will do that.  You lose how much its charging, but
                       if its charging 10 amps or 30 ....... who cares, and its difficult to turn that into real world useful information)





Im sure there are more.



Hope this helps.

Just to update my issues.
Tonight my son and I installed the front bumper assembly. i plugged the headlight motor in. With the floor switch for the headlights on low the doors stay open, even with the headlight switch off. If you have the floor switch on high beams the headlight motor works normally. :ahum: :ahum:
gotta love the electrical system in our old cars.

It is a "feed back loop" check lights for burnt out bulbs or bad connections. I'm running a 69 440 block .060 over with an early 70 (aluminum) six pack set up also. Stock 346 heads and a Mopar "Resto" cam, (the old Road Runner grind) mine is a 70 Charger too. I'd like to point out that one wire alternators have a main drawback not mentioned, this is they have "no remote sensing" of voltage drop, fine for a tractor or a car that is engineered for that but our Mopar's are actually kind of between true remote sensing of load and a one wire set up. check out this sight:  www.madelectrical.com     

Quote from: 2Gunz on July 31, 2010, 04:32:45 PM

1. Alternator is connected to the AMP gauge which is then connected to the battery.  (This is the stock charging setup)  
           All accessory's MUST be connected on the alternator side of the charging system for the gauge correctly.
           This is Nacho's setup.


2.   Alternator is connected directly to the battery.  Amp gauge is bypassed and a voltage gauge is installed.   This is my setup.

Correction:  OEM is your number 1 as you have stated, and that's why it needs upgraded.  Nacho's is your number 2.

 :popcrn: Get your headlight doors working?

   I didn't see any point in starting a new thread. I used circut breakers instead of fuses.
Soldered all the connections.

Clever update and smart on the soldering too.  Got a make and model number on the breakers?

Quote from: femtnmax on August 06, 2010, 10:02:00 PM

Quote from: 2Gunz on July 31, 2010, 04:32:45 PM

1. Alternator is connected to the AMP gauge which is then connected to the battery.  (This is the stock charging setup)   
            All accessory's MUST be connected on the alternator side of the charging system for the gauge correctly.
            This is Nacho's setup.


2.    Alternator is connected directly to the battery.  Amp gauge is bypassed and a voltage gauge is installed.   This is my setup.

Correction:  OEM is your number 1 as you have stated, and that's why it needs upgraded.  Nacho's is your number 2.

correction, I keep the OEM setup, just reinforcing it to save the weakness of stock bulkhead conectors, So thats my setup too.

( wow, this reply is old... never read before )

    Part number on breakers is CBC30HB. I bought everything at a local car parts store.

   The name on the bag that they came in is "Cooper Bussmann Inc." St. Louis, MO.

OK I hope some of you guys that did the mod are still around. I plan do do this on both my '72 and '70. Ive read though this post completely and REALLY like the idea of installing the relays via the dimmer switch to avoid cutting into the harness. BUT it seems a majority of people that went that route had problems as opposed to those just putting the relays under the battery.

Feedback?

Hmmm...I'm one of the ones that put the relay "under" the battery, as you put it, and I've had no issues.  I can't imagine why anyone would have issues installing the relays via the dimmer switch, unless there're issues with your switch and/or related wiring...

     I thought one of the cons to placing them under the kick panel or dash was that your still running the currant threw the bulkhead connector. As far as splicing at the radiator support, I haven't had any issue's.

Yeah, yeah, yeah you're right-I totally forgot about that; I guess mounting at the dimmer switch would defeat the purpose of bypassing the bulkhead connector.  Yes, IMO 'AK you'd be better off mounting that stuff at the radiator support...

Quote from: squeakfinder on July 21, 2012, 11:17:43 AM

    I thought one of the cons to placing them under the kick panel or dash was that your still running the currant threw the bulkhead connector....

That is spot on! and pretty much makes up my mind...thanks guys!


Oh, one more question, it just dawned on me. Does power running though the AMP guage power EVERYTHING except the starter??? (headlights, Fan, wipers ect) If so that's a messed up design!

I'm not going to google info for a reply. Just going by memory. I believe Ford and GM did away with that design by the early 1960's. Mopar on the other hand kept the design until 1978-79?  :eek2:

  All those problems at the bulkhead connector to the amp gauge probably allowed some dealership mechanics to make some easy money. I just run a 10 gauge wire through a grommet on the firewall to the amp gauge. Bypassing the weak link at the bulkhead. Allthough the volt gauge conversion sounds like a better idea.

Quote from: AKcharger on July 21, 2012, 01:35:00 PM

Quote from: squeakfinder on July 21, 2012, 11:17:43 AM

    I thought one of the cons to placing them under the kick panel or dash was that your still running the currant threw the bulkhead connector....

That is spot on! and pretty much makes up my mind...thanks guys!


Oh, one more question, it just dawned on me. Does power running though the AMP guage power EVERYTHING except the starter??? (headlights, Fan, wipers ect) If so that's a messed up design!

wires in & out of ammeter power everything on my cars

Bryan

I did this mod 6 years and many thousands of miles ago and all is fine. I did the headlight and alternator mod at the same time. Before this I would go through an alternator or a battery a year. I am still on the ones in the car 6 years ago I bought just before the mods.

Quote from: AKcharger on July 21, 2012, 01:35:00 PM

Quote from: squeakfinder on July 21, 2012, 11:17:43 AM

    I thought one of the cons to placing them under the kick panel or dash was that your still running the currant threw the bulkhead connector....

That is spot on! and pretty much makes up my mind...thanks guys!


Oh, one more question, it just dawned on me. Does power running though the AMP guage power EVERYTHING except the starter??? (headlights, Fan, wipers ect) If so that's a messed up design!

The amp gauge only "sees" battery recharge/supply volts/amps pass through it. - for drawing off battery, like cranking, + for recharging battery. Other then that a reaction bip on the gauge as the alt output compensates for a new load just as it's turned on.

'72 Charger complete, one to go!

Lessons learned:
- Used the dual relay plug from parts-express WARNING...took 3 weeks to recieve parts and that's after it was processed, they appearently use some fly by night shipper, if you use them plan WAAAAY ahead. Anyway, the wires seemed random so I depinned it and matched the wires  (red to pos, black to neg ect.)

- Placed relays under Battery tray

- Works great, '70 is next!

  :2thumbs:

'70 is done now too, it is a much more noticable improvement than the '72, maybe the wires are older?

This topic has been around for a long time but I don't see pics or a discussion on how people ran the wire from the alternator back to under the battery.  Is there another place to tap into for power other than the pos+ on the alternator?

That Alt. output is by far the best as a stand alone feed to the lights, you add no load to any other wiring, in fact you reduce load through the dash. (A good thing!)   :yesnod:

Could you tie-in at the solenoid so you don't have to run a new wire clear from the ALT?

Quote from: cougs on March 18, 2013, 05:19:44 PM
This topic has been around for a long time but I don't see pics or a discussion on how people ran the wire from the alternator back to under the battery.  Is there another place to tap into for power other than the pos+ on the alternator?

The alternator is real close to the passenger side frame rail so why not run the wire over the rail and into the front radiator support frame?  You can hide it there easily and run the wire to the battery.  Unless you point it out, nobody will notice.

There is a small wire coming off the positive side of the battery (maybe 12 ga) that s built into the terminal.  It there a reason you can't tap into that?

Interesting read guys.  Especially the part about feeding accessories and headlights from the alt and NOT the battery.  When I do my upgrade, I will be using circuit breakers like previously mentioned.  At least with a CB your lights will cycle in case of a short circuit.  A fuse will leave you in the dark if it blows (yes you are reducing your chances of it blowing by having two fuses).  I will also be keeping the relays AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to the alternator.  The whole idea here is to minimize voltage drop.  I'll probably stick the relays under the batt tray.  Having the relays in the car is good for protection but IMHO increases voltage drop and therefore having dimmer headlights.  Yes, many of you can live with a small voltage drop by having your relays inside the car.  :Twocents:

   10 gauge wire from the starter post to one of those GM junction blocks that I mounted next to the battery.

     I did tie the pigtail from the battery clamp to the junction block. But, it's just redundancy. I figured it couldn't hurt. Allthough I would not rely on the pigtail because of the corrosion issue's that occur at the positive post.

I tried the relay "upgrade" on my 70 Charger and it screwed everything up.
The headlight doors on the 70 are electric, and with the relays only serving the headlights, the action of the doors was tricky. They wouls ONLY close with high beams on. They would only OPEN with the high beams on.
I Just called it quits and installed an Evans wiring harness. NEW wire without relays is better than old wiring without relays.

Quote from: Red 70 R/T 493 on April 18, 2013, 11:51:26 PM
I tried the relay "upgrade" on my 70 Charger and it screwed everything up.
The headlight doors on the 70 are electric, and with the relays only serving the headlights, the action of the doors was tricky. They wouls ONLY close with high beams on. They would only OPEN with the high beams on.
I Just called it quits and installed an Evans wiring harness. NEW wire without relays is better than old wiring without relays.

You need to read this thread and do the head lamp motor relay upgrade at the same time.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,8077.0.html

Quote from: jlatessa on July 30, 2010, 08:15:06 AM
Where does the voltage regulator fit into this schematic?
An un-regulated alt can put out 15+ volts, what does this do to the life of a 12V bulb??

Also, doesn't that high of a un-regulated voltage going to the battery cause problems?

Thanks

I don't believe this question was ever actually answered, and I'm wondering about it myself. The "headlight relay upgrade" which is the subject of this thread would feed the headlights with unregulated voltage directly off the alternator, because the path becomes alternator > relay > headlights > ground ... no voltage regulator in that circuit at all. So, will the 15+ volts direct from the alternator cause the headlights to prematurely blow out, and/or to be brighter than they are designed to be?

It's fused, wouldn't that prevent an overcurrent?

Aren't the relays themselves limiting the output to 12v?   :shruggy:

The voltage regulator, in a properly working electrical system, keeps the alternator output between 13.8 and about 14.4 volts. This is the voltage applied to the headlights with this relay upgrade whether you take the voltage off the battery or alternator. It should be taken off the alternator side of the ammeter or the ammeter will read the highlight current as battery charging current.

What this relay upgrade does is eliminate all the voltage drops through the headlight switch, wiring and bulk head connector pins,so the lights are brighter. But, brighter also means the filament of the lamp is operating at a higher temperature and all things being equal will burn out sooner.

It would also eliminate a large current flow through the ammeter, no?

Any way to keep it at a steady 12v or close instead of going up to 14?

On the current flow through the ammeter with this upgrade its a yes and no. If the engine and alternator is turning fast enough the energy for the headlights will come out of the alternator and not go through the ammeter. At engine idle it will likely come out of the battery and through the ammeter. What the upgrade does do is keep some current out of the bulkhead connector pins. This modification and the fleet bypass wiring mods are good ones to make for the sake of the connector pins.

Unfortunately, finding  a way to keep the voltage at the headlights at 12 volts would kind of defeat the purpose of this upgrade as you would not have brighter lights which along with the taking some of the strain off the wiring is the end goal. I did a little research and General Electric rates their headlights at 13 volts kind of mid way between battery voltage and charging system voltage. So, I think all in all, headlight life would not suffer all that much and you get brighter lights and do some good things for the bulk head connector.

Quote from: Pete in NH on July 02, 2013, 09:13:47 AM
On the current flow through the ammeter with this upgrade its a yes and no. If the engine and alternator is turning fast enough the energy for the headlights will come out of the alternator and not go through the ammeter. At engine idle it will likely come out of the battery and through the ammeter. What the upgrade does do is keep some current out of the bulkhead connector pins. This modification and the fleet bypass wiring mods are good ones to make for the sake of the connector pins.

Unfortunately, finding  a way to keep the voltage at the headlights at 12 volts would kind of defeat the purpose of this upgrade as you would not have brighter lights which along with the taking some of the strain off the wiring is the end goal. I did a little research and General Electric rates their headlights at 13 volts kind of mid way between battery voltage and charging system voltage. So, I think all in all, headlight life would not suffer all that much and you get brighter lights and do some good things for the bulk head connector.

Sounds like a win-win to me!  I'm doing this mod when I do the power window and door upgrade, now all I have to do is find that alternator that's out of stock...

The lowbeam headlights, the ones with three prongs, they have two filaments, one lights for low beams and the other lights for high beams, right? One of the prongs is hot for one filament, the other is hot for the other filament, and the third (center) prong is common ground for both of them, correct?

If I'm understanding this correctly, when your low beams are on, a single filament (let's call it filament A) in each of your two outer headlights is lit, and when your high beams are on, each filament A shuts off and each filament B comes on in your two outer (3-prong low beam) headlights. Additionally, the two inner (2 prong, single filament, high beam) headlights come on as supplementary lights.

When your low beams are on, a hot wire (let's call it hot wire X) is in parallel with two filaments (filaments A), one in each outer headlight. When your high beams are on, a different hot wire (hot wire Y) is in parallel with 4 filaments, two filaments B for the outer headlights, and each of the single filaments in the inner headlights.

After doing the relay upgrade:

- The #87 terminal of relay #1 would connect to hot wire X, and the #87 terminal of relay #2 would connect to hot wire Y.

- The low beam wire from the dimmer switch (formerly part of hot wire X, but now cut) would connect to terminal #86 of relay #1, and the high beam wire from the dimmer switch (formerly part of hot wire Y, but now cut) would connect to terminal #86 of relay #2.

- The #85 terminal of both relays would be grounded to the chassis.

- The #30 terminal of both relays would connect to the alternator stud via heavy wire (10 AWG), each wire having an inline 30 amp fuse or circuit breaker.

Is that all correct? I'm trying to get a mental picture of how to wire up this relay upgrade.

If I remember, the center prong on the headlights is not ground, the ground for both filaments is one of the outside terminals

Quote from: A383Wing on July 02, 2013, 09:42:22 PM
If I remember, the center prong on the headlights is not ground, the ground for both filaments is one of the outside terminals

Yes, you're right. I looked at it today and the black wire that grounds to the radiator chair is connected to one of the side terminals on the low beam headlight.

Are the existing factory hot and ground wires that run to the headlights sufficient to be spliced into for this upgrade, or should heavier wires be run all the way from the outputs of the relays to the headlight plugs, and from the plugs to ground? Those two factory ground wires that screw onto the radiator chair on either side of the car only appear to be 18 gauge. The hot wires (I believe red for the high beams and blue [or purple] with a white stripe for the low beams) appear to be 16 gauge.

the stock wires should be efficient enough

many have done this upgrade and not had to replace factory wires

It wouldn't make any difference, electrically speaking, whether you run the power wires to the relays' #30 terminals from the battery or the alternator post, especially in my car where I have already added an 8 gauge wire (with 12 gauge fusible link) from the alternator post to the starter relay, and from the factory there is already an 8 gauge wire from the starter relay to the positive terminal on the battery. This effectively creates a single 8 gauge wire going from the alternator to the battery. So whether you tap in at the alternator post, starter relay post, the positive battery terminal, or any other place along the 8 gauge wire path, it makes no difference (aside from minuscule and insignificant differences in resistance).

Since the battery is much closer to where I'll be mounting the relays and circuit breakers than the alternator is, that's where I'm going to tap in.

I think I'm going to use just one self-resetting circuit breaker, even though I ordered two. If I were using fuses, I'd definitely use two (one for each relay), so that if a fuse blows, I could step on the dimmer switch and have lights again (though in some cases that wouldn't be a good idea, i.e., if the low beam fuse blew and you had to switch to high beams, and there was oncoming traffic, it would be dangerous to continue driving like that).

With a self-resetting circuit breaker, it would reset in a couple/few seconds anyway (the factory stock headlight wiring only has one self-resetting circuit breaker too). Plus, if possible, I'd pull over and fix the problem anyway if the breaker started tripping (I'll keep the extra circuit breaker I ordered in the car, along with some spare relays).

Keep in mind if you are still using the dash ammeter if you pull the headlight current off the battery side of things the headlight current will display as battery charge current. That's why connecting the headlight circuits to the alternator post might be a better place.

Quote from: Pete in NH on July 08, 2013, 10:00:02 AM
Keep in mind if you are still using the dash ammeter if you pull the headlight current off the battery side of things the headlight current will display as battery charge current. That's why connecting the headlight circuits to the alternator post might be a better place.

My ammeter works, but it is bypassed for the sake of reliability. The fact that I have a shunt wire (8 gauge) going directly from the alternator to the starter relay already renders the ammeter inaccurate anyway, even if it were hooked up, because most of the battery charging current will take the path of least resistance (the 8 gauge path from the alternator to the battery, which doesn't include the ammeter).

Yes, I had seen that the ammeter was bypassed in an earlier post but, I thought I would mention the connection side issue for those folks still using the ammeter.

A couple of weeks ago I was driving home from Skowhegan (about an hour's drive) at night, and just before I got to my town line the headlights went out. A few seconds later they came back on, then they went out again, and so on. It did this several times, and then they stayed on long enough to get home (they did it one more time just before I pulled into my driveway). When I parked in my driveway and turned off the lights, I noticed the headlight switch was hot. It was the first time I'd ever taken this car for a long drive at night, and it was also the first time the headlights had done that since I started driving it on the road in 2011.

My mechanic friend said it was the circuit breaker in the headlight switch. I didn't even know there was a circuit breaker in the switch, but it made sense that it would get hot enough to trip a circuit breaker considering the long run of thin wire that goes through a bulkhead connector, and has the added load of halogen headlights rather than the standard headlights that the circuit was designed for.

So a search brought me to this thread, and it looked to be just the thing. My headlights are now much brighter (I'm getting 13.2 VDC to the high beams at idle, which is perfect), and the headlight switch never gets hot. Even in daylight they look almost white rather than pale yellow like they used to look in the day:

(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6295/pyn4.jpg)

yup...those relays make a big difference...and saves yer wiring also

Bryan

I have done this on both Chargers big difference. Only thing I did different was use 4 relays and 4 fuses. One for each low beam, one for the outboard high beams and one for the inboard high beams. A little more wiring ,but no single failure puts you in the dark. There is always two independent circuits powering headlights.   :Twocents:

I had to use 4 relays for my 66 Charger, but for a different reason. One for low beam, one for high beam, one for headlight motor rotate up, one for rotate down.

Bryan

Thanks for a great thread!

I upgraded to H4 halogens and had been experiencing over-heating of the switch when I leave my high beams on for a long time (5 minutes?), so, this relay upgrade is the fix I've been looking for!

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104078.0/all.html

Only thing I noticed, was the link to waytekwire.co no longer links to a Bosch 75101, so I ordered the Bosch 75401 relays instead.

Also, waytekwire makes you order a minimum of some of the connectors, etc?
I had to order 10 of the relay mounting blocks: 75280, they were cheap, though. $6.79 for 10
I had to order 50 of the relay connectors: 31073, they were very cheap, too. $8.27 for 50
It let me order only 2 of the 5-pin relays. $13.70 for 2
Grand total $33.76 to ensure my 45 year old wiring does not burn my car down! LOL.

If anyone needs 2 mounting blocks or connectors, shoot me a PM, I'll send you a couple, I have extras. LOL.

Christopher

I've been tracking this since my resto, got pointed to Daniel Stern; Lighting expert.

There's WAY too much information on his website for me to quote any here, you really need to read it. I'll post copy from our emails.

"...First, decide how well you want to see at night and how much money you want to spend doing it. This should be decided based on how much nighttime driving you do and at what kinds of speeds, and/or on your personal preference for how important it is to you to have highly effective, well-focused headlamps. H4s are the standard upgrade, and are not advisable if you are planning on doing much night driving. H4 lamps (of any manufacture) in the 5.75" round size are not very efficient, because with H4 (any H4 bulb in any H4 lamp), only 55% of the total reflector and lens area is used to collect and direct the light for the low beam, because of the low beam filament shield inside the H4 bulb. That's OK if you have a large lamp, but with small lamps like the 5.75" rounds, you really can't collect much light from the bulb. But if you don't do much night driving and want to keep the cost down, a quality pair of H4 lamps (Cibies are the ones to get, $79/ea) will still give a broader beam coverage than the sealed beams.

If you do much of any night driving, instead of H4s, put in the Hella BiFocal H1 low beams ($123/ea), which were co-developed by Hella and BMW. They are the most efficient, best focused replaceable-bulb halogen headlamps in this size format, and I stock the commercial-duty version with toughened hardglass lenses. Use them in conjunction with parabolic H1 high beams ($79/ea). Use Narva Rangepower+50 H1 bulbs all around ($15.59). These will give vastly better performance than the sealed-beam junk _and_ vastly better performance than any H4 conversion (much more efficient optics; entire optical area used to form the low beam). Illumination is broad, long-reaching, and very well focused, with no upward stray light and significantly less glare to oncoming drivers (because the light is focused where you need it) -- a substantial upgrade from the sealed beam lamps' dim, narrow tunnel of light with no side spread and excessive upward throw that causes backglare in bad weather, and likewise a substantial upgrade from the H4 lamps' relatively meager beam performance."

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/home.html

Something to keep in mind when doing this upgrade. If you do this upgrade inside the car all of that headlamp current still has to flow through two spade terminals in the bulkhead connector. Doing this underhood straight from the alternator reduces the load on these two terminals, and circuit, reduces the resistance to the headlamps. These cars with ammeters are actually prone to ammeter circuit overload. 70s Dodge pickups (which are very similar wiring circuits) are notorious for melting the ammeter. Anything you can do to reduce the load off of this circuit is great. My .02 cents.

Quote from: ChargerKen on May 31, 2014, 07:56:52 PM
Something to keep in mind when doing this upgrade. If you do this upgrade inside the car all of that headlamp current still has to flow through two spade terminals in the bulkhead connector. Doing this underhood straight from the alternator reduces the load on these two terminals, and circuit, reduces the resistance to the headlamps. These cars with ammeters are actually prone to ammeter circuit overload. 70s Dodge pickups (which are very similar wiring circuits) are notorious for melting the ammeter. Anything you can do to reduce the load off of this circuit is great. My .02 cents.

This thread is getting to be a long read isn't it. I agree eliminating the bulkhead connector is probably the most important thing to do. I mentioned this on page 5 post #119.

I'm sorry. I guess I didn't read through this as thouroughly as I thought I did.

I finally got my relays installed.

I finally got my relays installed. I used two 30Amp thermal fuses, then one relay for low beams (LH yellow leads), one relay for high beams (RH red leads). Since I mounted mine under my battery tray, where the vacuum can is supposed to go, I just ran a 10gauge (30Amp wire) Red hot and 10gauge Black ground directly off the battery. I know, if I ran the hot all the way to the alternator positive it would bypass my Amp meter. I wasn't that concerned with that.

The signal wires come form the left, I used male blades to insert in original female blade leads, so I didn't hafta cut any wires, just taped everything up after making connections. Used female blades out to lamp leads that head out toward right.

Can't see anything with the battery installed. :-)

Must've done it correctly? Everything works!

get rid of those cheese-ball style quickie fix-it battery post cable ends....you will be happier in the long run

Geez. My pro wrench friend said the same thing. LOLz. We're putting in a new clutch after rebuilding my 4-speed, and he says, 'Get a new Mopar battery & proper battery cables, would ya?' Like I told him, I only spend money on her that makes her faster (or handle better, or prettier, or shinier, or etc etc). :-)

'Proper' batt cables ARE in my future. I've been lazy to measure. My starter cable crimp-on end @ the starter is my biggest motivator. Put a new MSD starter in her & that cable looked 'suspect'. :-)

Quote from: cjw916 on February 05, 2014, 07:58:19 AM

Also, waytekwire makes you order a minimum of some of the connectors, etc?
I had to order 10 of the relay mounting blocks: 75280, they were cheap, though. $6.79 for 10
I had to order 50 of the relay connectors: 31073, they were very cheap, too. $8.27 for 50
It let me order only 2 of the 5-pin relays. $13.70 for 2
Grand total $33.76 to ensure my 45 year old wiring does not burn my car down! LOL.

If anyone needs 2 mounting blocks or connectors, shoot me a PM, I'll send you a couple, I have extras. LOL.

Christopher

Quote from: A383Wing on June 29, 2014, 01:21:05 PM
get rid of those cheese-ball style quickie fix-it battery post cable ends....you will be happier in the long run

Have you got a link to anyone that sells reasonably priced replacements? I almost fell over when Year One had just the positive cable for $269!

OK, drove to work last night and got to see what kind of amps the H4 headlights draw!

WOW!

Made me decide to run that hot wire over to the alternator post, after all! ! !

Parking lamps on, ammeter read about 9 Amps.

Dim headlights on ammeter read about 22 Amps!

Bright headlights on and the ammeter read about 36 Amps! ! !

Rather than burn my car to the ground, today I ran the hot over to the alternator post, and with the headlights on bright, ammeter was @ about 8 Amps. :-)

H4 lamps on bright draw almost 5 Amps per bulb! Glad I used 10 gauge wire (good for 30 Amps)! ! !

Quote from: cjw916 on June 30, 2014, 01:00:50 PM

Quote from: A383Wing on June 29, 2014, 01:21:05 PM
get rid of those cheese-ball style quickie fix-it battery post cable ends....you will be happier in the long run

Have you got a link to anyone that sells reasonably priced replacements? I almost fell over when Year One had just the positive cable for $269!

Unless you're concerned about a factory-correct appearance, make your own (or have them made at your local autoparts store if you don't have a tool for crimping large terminals). They will be better than the factory-original cables, and won't cost anywhere near hundreds of dollars (which is utterly absurd; another of many examples of arbitrarily high pricing in the "restoration parts" industry).

For the ultimate battery cables, use at least 2 gauge wire (1/0 or even 2/0 gauge is better; anything bigger than that is pretty well past the point of diminishing returns, and could be awkward/difficult to install, especially if it doesn't have a high strand count to make it flexible), tin-plated solid copper crimp-on battery terminals (like so - link (http://www.wiringproducts.com/copper-battery-terminals)), tin-plated copper crimp-on cable lugs (AKA: ring terminals), and some heat-shrink tubing (ideally 3M dual-wall adhesive-lined). 

Thanks Recoil, I was checking out that cable website you pointed me to. Nice stuff. I am definitely going to order cables, terminals, lugs, solder slugs & shrink tubing from them. It will be a nice upgrade. :-)

http://www.wiringproducts.com

This is where I get all my wiring:
https://gregsmarinewiresupply.com/Zen/

Go to custom wires on that page to make them exactly how you want them.  I ordered battery cables, 6 gauge wires to run to alt and battery and fuse and several more finished cables in the 8 and 10 gauge range.  The total shipped was around $80 if I recall.  Awesome quality.

Heres a question,  just upgraded wring to a painless kit, everything is going very well so far but as far as my old upgrade to relays as shown in this post do I keep them or with the new harness I should now omit them

my gut feeling is to keep them as to not over stress/heat  the new headlight switch I got


what are the thoughts?   :shruggy:

Definitely keep the mod.   :yesnod:

OK I thought so, but wanted to make sure.

It worked to well on my old wiring and anyone that hasn't done it should. 

Thanks Dino

Yes, keep the relays for sure!

I just did this to my 68.  Ran 12ga from the alt to under the battery with two breakers and relays.  Good improvement.  Just need to upgrade to halogens now!!

watching...

Hi neighbors. Sorry to resurrect such an old thread. I pulled it up to get a relay part number and read through the entire thread. I have a tip that would have been helpful years ago to a several people. Sorry it took so long.

Having trouble with the electric headlight doors and lights after the upgrade? Check the ground on the door relay under the dash. If I recall correctly the factory grounded this relay through the headlight filaments. That wasn't enough current to illuminate the bulbs but it is enough to trip the new relay.

On a related note I have had zero trouble with this mod. I drive my car weekly, in the rain, at night, road trips, etc. I have put about 67,000 miles on it since 2001.

Quote from: Charger1970 on November 12, 2018, 01:25:41 PM
Hi neighbors. Sorry to resurrect such an old thread. I pulled it up to get a relay part number and read through the entire thread. I have a tip that would have been helpful years ago to a several people. Sorry it took so long.

Having trouble with the electric headlight doors and lights after the upgrade? Check the ground on the door relay under the dash. If I recall correctly the factory grounded this relay through the headlight filaments. That wasn't enough current to illuminate the bulbs but it is enough to trip the new relay.

On a related note I have had zero trouble with this mod. I drive my car weekly, in the rain, at night, road trips, etc. I have put about 67,000 miles on it since 2001.

Another late update to this thread. Charger1970 is correct. If, when you add relays to the headlights and your lights and door motor start acting weird, it is the door motor relay under the dash. Replace the existing circuit breaker/relay with a fuse and a modern relay with a separate ground on the coil, and you're golden.  :2thumbs:

(MODS PLEASE STICKY THIS)

Had to revisit to get part # for relays, as soon as my car starts low beams come on with switch off...pretty easy to trouble shoot.  working great BTW

Quote from: cjw916 on June 30, 2014, 01:10:17 PM
OK, drove to work last night and got to see what kind of amps the H4 headlights draw!

WOW!

Made me decide to run that hot wire over to the alternator post, after all! ! !

Parking lamps on, ammeter read about 9 Amps.

Dim headlights on ammeter read about 22 Amps!

Bright headlights on and the ammeter read about 36 Amps! ! !

Rather than burn my car to the ground, today I ran the hot over to the alternator post, and with the headlights on bright, ammeter was @ about 8 Amps. :-)

H4 lamps on bright draw almost 5 Amps per bulb! Glad I used 10 gauge wire (good for 30 Amps)! ! !

The proove about NOTHING must be sourced from batt on a car with ammeter. Then along the years everybody has been blaming the ammeter due its failures.

Upgrade the wiring with parallel paths to keep safe the bulkhead connections

Yearly Bump. Should be a Sticky.

I did this upgrade to both of my '70 Chargers.

Yup. Did this upgrade to my 71 and 72 Charger's. Sold the 71 to fund my Daytona clone project. This winter's projects is to do this upgrade in the clone and my 68 Charger. Just ordered the relays yesterday.

I did my Dart last week and installed HID lights. Big difference.

Just getting an understanding of this setup, so excuse if a stupid question, but if the power is fed from the alternator, does this not affect the headlights not working if the engine isn't running?

Quote from: Matt73Charger on January 27, 2022, 03:24:42 PM
Just getting an understanding of this setup, so excuse if a stupid question, but if the power is fed from the alternator, does this not affect the headlights not working if the engine isn't running?

The red wire on the alternator you draw power from is the same wire that goes to charge the battery so if the car is not running it will still get power from the battery to run the head lights

Quote from: 70 sublime on January 27, 2022, 05:47:50 PM

Quote from: Matt73Charger on January 27, 2022, 03:24:42 PM
Just getting an understanding of this setup, so excuse if a stupid question, but if the power is fed from the alternator, does this not affect the headlights not working if the engine isn't running?

The red wire on the alternator you draw power from is the same wire that goes to charge the battery so if the car is not running it will still get power from the battery to run the head lights

Thought that might have been the answer. Thank you.

Quote from: Blakcharger440 on September 29, 2006, 05:14:31 PM
Excuse my dumb question but what exactly does this headlight relay upgrade do???  ??? ??? ???
Sounds like something I should know about and do for my mopars.

It is a different wiring scheme. The factory way runs the full charge through the headlight switch to the lamps. The switches are prone to warming up or even getting hot with all that current running through them. The relay mod changes it so the power to the lamps get power direct from the relays, and the headlight switch simply triggers the relays open and closed (turning lights on and off). \

I did it less for the lamp intensity, but because there are two common areas Charger dashes tend to have electrical fires, both are high current spots. The headlamp switch and the Alternator/Voltage gauge. The mods basically are updates to the way the factory changed these weak designs when the issues were clear and were addressed.

I did the relay upgrade under the dash. Do you still need or recommend this upgrade if you're running LED lights?

Need to do this again, the schematics are gone, anyone have them?

Quote from: AKcharger on June 16, 2023, 02:25:32 PMNeed to do this again, the schematics are gone, anyone have them?

Yep

relaycircuit.gif