How important is not having a fender tag or build sheet for a bird and just how much does it hurt the value? Trying to help a friend out on a potential purchase where the tag has been "misplaced" Thanks!
With a car like a Superbird it certainly affects the value to not be able to prove the pedigree. Is he buying it as an investment or for the joy of driving a wing car?
Both, but mostly as an invesment. I know there is a list of superbird vins and can document it as one but how much less is the car worth without it?
Quote from: 1RareBird on June 12, 2009, 01:58:43 PM
Both, but mostly as an invesment. I know there is a list of superbird vins and can document it as one but how much less is the car worth without it?
there are several places that will make him a tag . It will only be so accurate being you can only go by how the car is now .
Does the car have the buildsheet? My car has a build sheet but a repro fender tag.
No build sheet, apparently mice got to it. He's looked everywhere for it and said he found the small remains in the back seat.
is there anything super special about the car, or is it a plain jane car?
Superbirds only came so many ways. it does affect the value, but like the lemon twist car with the black bench that just sold no one's going to fake that.
Here's the deal. Galen Govier (numbers guru) will make a fender tag if the car is still original, and there's proof the car in it's original condition. With this said, if there is documentation of photos of it being what it is, he would most likely make a fender tag. If the original owner is still around, this will also help. Galen will charge some money, but it would be worth it. Based on it being a "Bird", it should be a lot easier to get the information. Also, have the present owner check again for another build sheet. Under carpet/under dash/behind Glovebox/in seat springs..... Check the body panels for matching numbers first. If these match, good news. Check the engine/trans next. I wouldn't doubt if Galen, or someone from a Wing club can get the info on the car based on the VIN tag. See if it's registered also.....
Good luck. :cheers:
A friends yellow superbird recently just sold missing the same 2 items buildsheet and fender tag .There are many ways to identify a superbird as legit.If you know certain details.So I dont think it devalues the car that much.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,57448.0.html
Quote from: 1970Moparmann on June 12, 2009, 04:18:41 PM
Here's the deal. Galen Govier (numbers guru) will make a fender tag if the car is still original, and there's proof the car in it's original condition. With this said, if there is documentation of photos of it being what it is, he would most likely make a fender tag. If the original owner is still around, this will also help. Galen will charge some money, but it would be worth it. Based on it being a "Bird", it should be a lot easier to get the information. Also, have the present owner check again for another build sheet. Under carpet/under dash/behind Glovebox/in seat springs..... Check the body panels for matching numbers first. If these match, good news. Check the engine/trans next. I wouldn't doubt if Galen, or someone from a Wing club can get the info on the car based on the VIN tag. See if it's registered also.....
Good luck. :cheers:
You might find the buildsheet under front bench seat.And on a friends 70 GTX I was pushing on the burlap and sheet was on the backside of the burlap
I don't think Galen actually makes them does he, isn't he just a middle man for one of the other places?
If Galen's making fender tags...that's news to me.
Nah - He jobs them out.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on June 12, 2009, 06:44:52 PM
Nah - He jobs them out.
And collects his chunk of $$$$$$$$$$ for doing nothing!
Quote from: Ghoste on June 12, 2009, 06:10:46 PM
I don't think Galen actually makes them does he, isn't he just a middle man for one of the other places?
Not sure, but have seen one and it looked really good! :2thumbs:
Quote from: 62 Max on June 12, 2009, 07:43:37 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on June 12, 2009, 06:44:52 PM
Nah - He jobs them out.
And collects his chunk of $$$$$$$$$$ for doing nothing!
Sort of like George W. :icon_smile_big:
In any case I still think that for the most part if you buy a car like a Superbird or a Shelby or a Yenko or whatever as an investment, my experience has been that the better the paper trail the higher value people place on the car and the easier it is to sell.
Quote from: hotrod98 on June 12, 2009, 08:49:50 PM
Quote from: 62 Max on June 12, 2009, 07:43:37 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on June 12, 2009, 06:44:52 PM
Nah - He jobs them out.
And collects his chunk of $$$$$$$$$$ for doing nothing!
Sort of like George W. :icon_smile_big:
Don't get me started! :hah: :RantExplode: :nana:
Not sure how an accurate fender tag can be made if the VON (Vehicle Order Number) isn't known. The Scheduled Production date can be approximated, but isn't there a span of a couple of days Superbirds were made? Guess you could find statistics on 'Birds with sequence numbers on either side and make an educated guess, but the Vehicle Order Number would be tricky. This information is needed from the broadcast sheet.
Troy
Quote from: nascarxx29 on June 12, 2009, 05:35:55 PM
You might find the buildsheet under front bench seat.And on a friends 70 GTX I was pushing on the burlap and sheet was on the backside of the burlap
Or under the carpet like one member here just discovered.
On a different note, here are my thoughts. It would not have any effect on me personally as a buyer as long as it checked out numbers wise. I only say that to assume I was looking for a numbers car. I would drive a clone or non numbers car as well.....my only point being whatever it is, is priced accordingly and not trying to be passed off as something it is not. If you can prove its authenticity then it is worth whatever any other bird is to most people. I will not argue that it would be worth more with a piece of paper and a fender tag to certain people as well.....just not to me. If he's planning on keeping it it doesn't matter, if he's planning on flipping it, it might matter is he's looking to make bank.
http://www.trimtags.com/
http://www.datatags.com/
and if you want to pad GG's pockets for whatever reason
http://www.gvgovier.com/fendertag.htm
How would you guess and recreate the very top leftside of the tag numbers.I think they call them gate or metal shop numbers?
.(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/2703_3.jpg)
Quote from: nascarxx29 on June 13, 2009, 07:05:48 AM
How would you guess and recreate the very top leftside of the tag numbers.I think they call them gate or metal shop numbers?
That's not that hard to determine. This would be the easiest part.
(Why does that 70 LR tag have a bent corner :scratchchin:)
QuoteNot sure how an accurate fender tag can be made if the VON (Vehicle Order Number) isn't known. The Scheduled Production date can be approximated, but isn't there a span of a couple of days Superbirds were made? Guess you could find statistics on 'Birds with sequence numbers on either side and make an educated guess, but the Vehicle Order Number would be tricky.
All SB's have a B30 SPD.
You could come up with a VON that looks correct and close but it would be a guess without the BS.
Quote from: 69CoronetRT on June 13, 2009, 07:51:05 AM
Quote from: nascarxx29 on June 13, 2009, 07:05:48 AM
How would you guess and recreate the very top leftside of the tag numbers.I think they call them gate or metal shop numbers?
That's not that hard to determine. This would be the easiest part.
(Why does that 70 LR tag have a bent corner :scratchchin:)
QuoteNot sure how an accurate fender tag can be made if the VON (Vehicle Order Number) isn't known. The Scheduled Production date can be approximated, but isn't there a span of a couple of days Superbirds were made? Guess you could find statistics on 'Birds with sequence numbers on either side and make an educated guess, but the Vehicle Order Number would be tricky.
All SB's have a B30 SPD.
You could come up with a VON that looks correct and close but it would be a guess without the BS.
That's good info on the SPD.. :2thumbs:
The bent corner more than likely is when the tag was attached with the left screw and bent up for any inspection stampings. Then, late the other non-painted attachment screw was attached.
Yeah, you see quite a few bent up there.
A Superbird tag is about the easiest tag to predict how it will look.
Gate #, 5#'s, almost every car starts with 29xxx, 15xxx, 05xxx, I've seen a couple of exceptions but those 3 numbers seem to identify the Gate the car went through. Next 3 #'s, are which # the specific car went through through the gate that day-lets say gate # 15xxx, starting with 100. It's usually under 160 so xx101 to xx160 (here there are higher #'s on exception.
Contrary to Nascarxx29's picture, which must have been a factory mistake, the next # is a 6 # sequence. If you have a couple of hundred tags on file it's pretty easy to approximate a close # or see if the # is way off.
Second to bottom line, J#. Again if you have a couple of hundred tag #'s you'll get pretty close here.
Everyone has a B30 date. V19, V88. 26 for radiator.
All the rest of the tags are completely predictable and laid out exactly the same. All you have to do is plug in the codes for the engine, trans, bench/bucket, exterior/interior color, if it had a console.
Just about anyone could predict what the tag should look like with the most minor study.
Then there is the Inspectors stamp and getting the font right.
So what percentage would you assign as a chance of error?
And collects his chunk of $$$$$$$$$$ for doing nothing!
[/quote]
Sort of like George W. :icon_smile_big:
[/quote]
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Saw him in Dallas at a restaurant the other night having his wife cut his meat for him
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
If you have #s matching running gear pull date of manufacture from that, should get you close. My '70, no tag, (but I think I have it located :cheers:) has original engine/trans, date code of 11/69 which would make it a mid year 1970 I believe, previous cars I've owned had a fender code date a month or so after engine build date.
LL :shortbus:
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/1970_SUPERBIRD_ORANGE_61-1.jpg) This tag doesnt seem to show bent inspector corner but was a stamped 4 upside
Bird tags aren't painted (none of my original stuff anyway)....A lot of Lynch Road Muscle Era tags were unpainted. Any paint on them would be overspray - they were un-attached and hanging on a piece of the car.
Quote from: nascarxx29 on June 13, 2009, 11:52:02 AM
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/1970_SUPERBIRD_ORANGE_61-1.jpg) This tag doesnt seem to show bent inspector corner but was a stamped 4 upside
Dave - unscrew that tag and see if it's painted underneath.
Good idea and also to see how much rust has accumulated underneath of it.The tag I believe was known to be on a paperclip hanging from the rear view mirror on the assembly line
Quote from: Ghoste on June 13, 2009, 09:55:41 AM
Yeah, you see quite a few bent up there.
Depending on the plant....
From what I've seen, 70 LR tags are not bent. :Twocents: