I have just one word for everyone thinking about ignition systems: FIRE-FREAKING-CORE! Is that one word or three? Who the heck cares?!
Ron had a plug N play Firecore distributor sent out to me in a matter of days, and this morning I was able to just drop it in and go. Well, ZOOM would be more like it. Honestly guys, I haven't been this surprised by a car since I first got behind the wheel of my LS-1 powered '99 Ram-Air Firebird. I'm not saying it runs as fast as that, but it has definitely improved over yesterday. In the 21 years I've owned the Charger this has to be the BEST it's ever run, and the Firecore distributor was the latest piece of hardware to make it all happen.
What's changed? Well how about everything? Start-up, idle, part-throttle, cruising, medium throttle, full freaking throttle, OMG back off of the throttle, all of it is improved in a way that the car operates more clean, more crisp, and definitely stronger. Christ I almost put the nose into someone's rear because I wasn't expecting the car to move out that quickly-definitely an improvement over my previous Mopar Performance distributor. Now for the questions:
My settings are:
initial timing @ 19* BTDC
total timing @ 39* @ 2500 RPM (actually, it was 39* or ALL IN by 2000 RPM)
vacuum advance off and plugged
engine idle @ 800 RPM
I was able to get the car to pull 17" of vacuum at idle. Is that good? Isn't that....kinda high, or is that even a problem? Just what sort of vacuum are we supposed to be pulling anyway? I don't know my engine specs so I'm clueless on that one. What should I be doing to try and maximize the settings? Should I try reconnecting the vacuumn advance just to see how it runs? When I was using the Mopar Performance distributor the car ran BETTER (not better than the Firecore setup obviously) with the vacuum advance hooked up. Should I just leave everything alone and call it a day?
Now I would be lying if I said the Charger and I are now living in a land of unicorns and rainbows. As great as the car has improved I still have that annoying off-idle bog/stumble that has plagued me for decades, but obviously the ignition isn't related to it and that will have to be another thread. Also, I moved one of my plug wires to the point that it partially melted onto one of the header tubes. I KNEW I should've listened to Ron about buying spare plug wires! Also, I forgot to order this thing with a black distributor cap. I just love black distributor caps. ::) Again, I want to thank all of you here for your support and encouragement. Most of all I want to thank Ron. He's a firefighter, moderator, philanthropist and probably a legendary porn-star, yet he still finds time to PM a lowly member like me, back-and-forth until I am satisfied and confident with my purchase and its operation. I don't know where the Charger and I would be without you guys. Thanks again and I look forward to your input!
looks great, as long as no pinging is happening, I am sure Ron will chime in.
X2... I got one from Ron this Spring with similar results. Enjoy! :2thumbs:
Awesome stuff isn't it? I was shocked by the difference the Firecore system made. I will be selling my mini coil and 8.5 mm wires soon as I'm going back to the stock look, with Firecore products of course. :coolgleamA:
That vacuum reading tells me you have a healthy engine with a very mild cam or a grind with a wide lsa. 39° is fine, no worries there.
Good stuff Myk....I knew you'd be happy :icon_smile_big:
As Joe & Charlie said above....timing is fine. As long as it's not detonating just run it. I wouldn't bother with the vacuum advance but you can give it a try to experiment if you wish. Remember if you hook it up....use the ported vacuum nipple. ;)
That's a nice strong vacuum signal....great for easy tuning and power brake booster operation. Now we need to get you into a real carburetor :cheers:
Thanks for the kind words....it is appreciated. :2thumbs:
Ron
Cool,good to know...
Time for Fuel Injection..
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 26, 2015, 07:33:58 PM
Good stuff Myk....I knew you'd be happy :icon_smile_big:
As Joe & Charlie said above....timing is fine. As long as it's not detonating just run it. I wouldn't bother with the vacuum advance but you can give it a try to experiment if you wish. Remember if you hook it up....use the ported vacuum nipple. ;)
That's a nice strong vacuum signal....great for easy tuning and power brake booster operation. Now we need to get you into a real carburetor :cheers:
Thanks for the kind words....it is appreciated. :2thumbs:
Ron
So you're talking about that ProForm line, right? Yeah I'll start looking into that. Right now the old Holley 4160/50 was my initial thought but I'll consider others.
Quote from: Derwud on August 26, 2015, 08:06:24 PM
Cool,good to know...
Time for Fuel Injection..
Eh, maybe. I like thinking of this car as a low-tech dinosaur that's learned a few tricks but hasn't evolved into the wiring harness, module and sensor clusterf**k that are modern cars...
Quote from: myk on August 26, 2015, 10:08:29 PM
Quote from: Derwud on August 26, 2015, 08:06:24 PM
Cool,good to know...
Time for Fuel Injection..
Eh, maybe. I like thinking of this car as a low-tech dinosaur that's learned a few tricks but hasn't evolved into the wiring harness, module and sensor clusterf**k that are modern cars...
Well you made one step towards the dark side with the Ign system, take the bigger leap!!
Quote from: Derwud on August 26, 2015, 10:33:13 PM
Quote from: myk on August 26, 2015, 10:08:29 PM
Quote from: Derwud on August 26, 2015, 08:06:24 PM
Cool,good to know...
Time for Fuel Injection..
Eh, maybe. I like thinking of this car as a low-tech dinosaur that's learned a few tricks but hasn't evolved into the wiring harness, module and sensor clusterf**k that are modern cars...
Well you made one step towards the dark side with the Ign system, take the bigger leap!!
Yeah but one thing I noticed after a day of hot-rodding in town is that I need need to fine tune and perfect my suspension and braking if I'm going to keep us alive lol...
Whats with the jump to injection? Once you felt how crisp and responsive a carb can be, you would never consider changing.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on August 26, 2015, 11:05:58 PM
Whats with the jump to injection? Once you felt how crisp and responsive a carb can be, you would never consider changing.
Yeah I've gotta figure out that off-idle bog. I've got all the killer hardware but have to walk the dog off the line... :scratchchin:
Idle transfer slot, idle mixture, accel pump size, discharge nozzle, jets. In that order.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on August 27, 2015, 07:40:59 AM
Idle transfer slot, idle mixture, accel pump size, discharge nozzle, jets. In that order.
Well in that case the Edelbrock 'carb has to go. None of those things are adjustable on this 'carb except the jets and mix screws. I have another theory on the problem that isn't related to tuning, though...
The edlebrocks are adjustable and fully tunable. just done differently. I thought for some reason you had a holley on yours.
myk,
Did you get the FC distributor and keep your MSD 6AL or go with the RTR distributor and pull the MSD? Glad to hear your results, great stuff!
Edelbrocks and Carters are much easier to tune, but can't be dialed in as well as Holley's..
Glad to hear the success of your latest purchase!!!! I bought a firecore plug and play dizzy for mine earlier this year and a set of the firecore wire's and a new MSD blaster 2 coil and resistor recommended by Ron and a set of NGK spark plug's and it's exactly like you said above, the car has never felt better!!!! You got yourself a solid ignition system now and you could really use a good holley or proform carb next!!! I know you have heard this over and over again but that eddy 750 is a slug of a carb!! I tried and tried to tune and jet and swap metering rod's to get one to work on my car and it just wasn't going to happen. I actually lucked up into a holley 750 double pumper carb and haven't looked back since. With some very minor tuning there is no bogging or stumbling just alot of going fast and smiling!!! I wish I still had that 750 holley, it was the best carb I have ever owned but when I went from the 440 to the 493 I bought a 850 double pumper carb and sadly sold the 750 to cover some of the cost on the 850. The 850 runs great tho and like the 750 all I had to do was jet it up a few jet sizes and that's pretty much it. My hat is off to Ron, he sell's the best product's that can be put on your mopar for the ignition system hands down!!!! You put yourself a good holley/proform on your charger and you will have to start on your brakes next and that firebird won't even have a chance!!!!! :icon_smile_big:
Im not an expert on the eddy/ carter style carbs. My suggestion is go to the dragstrip during an nhra stock/super stock event and make some friends. Got a buddy who did changed the carbs on the 63 max wedge last year. He took parts out that i know should stay in but it made the car much more responsive and we picked up 2 mph and a tenth with no other changes.
Quote from: BananaDan on August 27, 2015, 04:56:04 PM
myk,
Did you get the FC distributor and keep your MSD 6AL or go with the RTR distributor and pull the MSD? Glad to hear your results, great stuff!
I kept the MSD6 along with the basic plug in distributor. How's your car doing?
As for the 'carbs, I'm going to give the Eddy one last try at tuning. I'll buy a calibration kit and go from there. If it doesn't work, I'll give the Holley's a try but....I'm almost positive it's something else...
Quote from: myk on August 26, 2015, 10:08:29 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 26, 2015, 07:33:58 PM
Good stuff Myk....I knew you'd be happy :icon_smile_big:
As Joe & Charlie said above....timing is fine. As long as it's not detonating just run it. I wouldn't bother with the vacuum advance but you can give it a try to experiment if you wish. Remember if you hook it up....use the ported vacuum nipple. ;)
That's a nice strong vacuum signal....great for easy tuning and power brake booster operation. Now we need to get you into a real carburetor :cheers:
Thanks for the kind words....it is appreciated. :2thumbs:
Ron
So you're talking about that ProForm line, right? Yeah I'll start looking into that. Right now the old Holley 4160/50 was my initial thought but I'll consider others.
Yep, the Proform 750 street series carb with electric choke is what I would run on that engine combo.
Don't waste your time with the edelbrock carb.....if you think it runs good now wait until you get a descent carb dialed in ;)
Ron
People swear by the edelbrock carbs and have never tried a dual pumper. Cant believe how easy and adjustable a DP is. Oh well power loss to them.......
Is the Proform that much better than the single inlet Holley 4160 I've been fantasizing about? I thought they were the same 'carb?
The Eddy/Carter carbs are fine, they just are a lot more limited as to what can be changed for tuning without getting into actual surgery. If you want to bolt it on and forget about it, they are a good choice. If you want to go looking for power though, then the Holley style becomes the best choice.
The Proform takes it a step further Myk by adding some tuning parameters not available in most of the Holley carbs. Some of the internal passages are also different I believe and the quality control is higher as well.
What ghoste said...eventually holley will buy out proform like they do everyone else when a new DP maker makes something better. :icon_smile_big:
But in the meantime, I use the Holley parts to tune the Proform?
to back up what Ghoste said , I had a edelbrock carb when my 440 was stock and it ran fine. I rebuilt my 440 and now has 400 hp using a 750 holley vac sec. I tried the edelbrock carb out of curiosity and I noticed a loss of power.
What about the quickfuel carbs? I heard they were hard to beat.
Quote from: pipeliner on September 09, 2015, 09:03:17 PM
What about the quickfuel carbs? I heard they were hard to beat.
Quickfuel's are excellent. Had a 780 QF on my 408 stroker. Seems like they became popular and the price the shot up. You can get a comparable Proform for less.
Yeah I'm looking at the Proform 750 now. Ron says that the fuel curve on the Eddy's is just too lean or something. I'm tempted to get a smaller 'carb though? All of the online CFM calculators and anyone in my neighborhood that wrenches for a living are telling me to go smaller; like a 650 or around there...
I hate to sound ignorant but I've never heard of a proform. I'll look em up.
You're not the only one brother. I've just started learning about them as well. From what I gather they're Holley clones with some tweaks for even more adjustability and better quality control. Personally, I'm worried I'll get lost with all of the fine tuning but whatever...
PS: their starters suck
Quote from: myk on September 10, 2015, 12:26:38 PM
Yeah I'm looking at the Proform 750 now. Ron says that the fuel curve on the Eddy's is just too lean or something. I'm tempted to get a smaller 'carb though? All of the online CFM calculators and anyone in my neighborhood that wrenches for a living are telling me to go smaller; like a 650 or around there...
I think the CFM calculators are close but I always round up. I was leaning toward an 850 cfm for my 440, but it pretty tame and Ron talked me into the 750. I have not had a chance to put everything on :brickwall: but plan to in the next week or so.
Quote from: myk on September 10, 2015, 12:26:38 PM
Yeah I'm looking at the Proform 750 now. Ron says that the fuel curve on the Eddy's is just too lean or something. I'm tempted to get a smaller 'carb though? All of the online CFM calculators and anyone in my neighborhood that wrenches for a living are telling me to go smaller; like a 650 or around there...
the intake of A 650 carb will not match the output of your new headers.
Quote from: myk on September 10, 2015, 12:26:38 PM
Yeah I'm looking at the Proform 750 now. Ron says that the fuel curve on the Eddy's is just too lean or something. I'm tempted to get a smaller 'carb though? All of the online CFM calculators and anyone in my neighborhood that wrenches for a living are telling me to go smaller; like a 650 or around there...
Stick with what Ron is telling you.
Quote from: myk on September 10, 2015, 12:26:38 PM
Yeah I'm looking at the Proform 750 now. Ron says that the fuel curve on the Eddy's is just too lean or something. I'm tempted to get a smaller 'carb though? All of the online CFM calculators and anyone in my neighborhood that wrenches for a living are telling me to go smaller; like a 650 or around there...
YUP, edelbrocks are too lean, but they lean to get good MPG :icon_smile_big:
Proform, quickfuel, etc.. all those guys are YES clones of HOlleys, but where Holley didn't upgrade those guys did. Then HOlley finally upgraded their stuff to follow suit....like I said eventually HOlley will buy out profrom, quickfuel, etc....they always do :icon_smile_big:
Nothing like sticking your head into a 2800 RPM screaming engine on a 90* plus day with no shade to experiment with timing.
So now I've got 24* of initial and 13* of mechanical advance, all in by 2500 RPM. The initial is crazy high in my experience but, like Ron and everyone else said, set it for 'max vacuum. Adjusting the mechanical advance on the Firecore distributor was pretty easy also, once I figured out how to do it. I also messed with the idle mix screws, found out they were WAY unbalanced and adjusted them for 'max vacuum. All in all it's pulling 18-19 inches of vacuum at 850 RPM idle speed. I'm guessing I have a 'cam for a Prius in there? Car is running better for what it is, though...
Ok just got back from a car meet and the car is definitely running hotter. I take it this is because of the 24* of initial? So what am I supposed to do? The car responded very well to the 24* of initial, dictated by the highest vacuum reading, but if the motor is going to melt itself into hell it's not going to work out. Do I revert back to my initial setting of 18/19* of initial, or improve my cooling set up if I want the 24* of initial? Is it one or the other, or can I have both? :shruggy:
Quote from: Ghoste on September 03, 2015, 07:21:12 AM
The Eddy/Carter carbs are fine, they just are a lot more limited as to what can be changed for tuning without getting into actual surgery. If you want to bolt it on and forget about it, they are a good choice. If you want to go looking for power though, then the Holley style becomes the best choice.
The Proform takes it a step further Myk by adding some tuning parameters not available in most of the Holley carbs. Some of the internal passages are also different I believe and the quality control is higher as well.
but for 120 dollars more, are the proforms that much better than a holley 4160?
If you had a cruiser like myself, never will see any track times, or street racing.....is the 120ish dollars worth it?
I could see if it was a race motor and you needed all the adjustability you can get...but for a cruiser 440?
I think we'd both be fine with a Holley 4160, but personally I plan to relentlessly tinker with the car and possibly auto-X it so the extra tuning capability might be necessary...
Quote from: myk on September 25, 2015, 03:43:33 AM
Ok just got back from a car meet and the car is definitely running hotter. I take it this is because of the 24* of initial? So what am I supposed to do? The car responded very well to the 24* of initial, dictated by the highest vacuum reading, but if the motor is going to melt itself into hell it's not going to work out. Do I revert back to my initial setting of 18/19* of initial, or improve my cooling set up if I want the 24* of initial? Is it one or the other, or can I have both? :shruggy:
Myk,
The timing adjustment leaned out the mixture....it needs more fuel. :yesnod:
This is where a good carb with nice & easy tuning features comes in handy ;)
Does it feel more responsive with the additional base timing ?
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on September 25, 2015, 11:04:18 AM
Quote from: myk on September 25, 2015, 03:43:33 AM
Ok just got back from a car meet and the car is definitely running hotter. I take it this is because of the 24* of initial? So what am I supposed to do? The car responded very well to the 24* of initial, dictated by the highest vacuum reading, but if the motor is going to melt itself into hell it's not going to work out. Do I revert back to my initial setting of 18/19* of initial, or improve my cooling set up if I want the 24* of initial? Is it one or the other, or can I have both? :shruggy:
Myk,
The timing adjustment leaned out the mixture....it needs more fuel. :yesnod:
This is where a good carb with nice & easy tuning features comes in handy ;)
Does it feel more responsive with the additional base timing ?
Ron
Yes, the car is more responsive with more initial. It was good when I was just running 18* of initial but it liked the additional timing so I fed it until highest vacuum was reached. So are we talking about richening the idle mixture or is this about jets and needles too?
I was reading that having timing that's too retarded is also very bad for motors, something about the combustion process being adversely affected. How do I know if im reaching that point, without looking for glowing hot headers or boil overs?
Quote from: myk on September 25, 2015, 10:04:48 AM
I think we'd both be fine with a Holley 4160, but personally I plan to relentlessly tinker with the car and possibly auto-X it so the extra tuning capability might be necessary...
I ordered a holley 4160 this morning. 750, electric choke, vac secondaries
to have all the fine tuning capabilities is nice, but for someone like myself who just wants to cruise out to the beach ....i want to bolt on and go....
Quote from: Stegs on September 25, 2015, 11:29:46 AM
Quote from: myk on September 25, 2015, 10:04:48 AM
I think we'd both be fine with a Holley 4160, but personally I plan to relentlessly tinker with the car and possibly auto-X it so the extra tuning capability might be necessary...
I ordered a holley 4160 this morning. 750, electric choke, vac secondaries
to have all the fine tuning capabilities is nice, but for someone like myself who just wants to cruise out to the beach ....i want to bolt on and go....
I completely understand. We need to start reading up on Holley tuning and adjusting, though. There are quite a few books and videos floating around to help...
Fine tuning a holley is nothing more then a little patience, plug reading, and a few extra spare parts to buy. You should be able to tune it in a couple hours and have it crisp and responsive. The only "major" parts you should need to change on a mild street engine is jets, accel pump squirters and possibly cams. All are done with a small screwdriver and 1/4" ratchet set. Was it possible to order that 4160 with 50cc pumps? A wise upgrade on even a mildly cammed big block.
Quote from: myk on September 25, 2015, 11:18:58 AM
Yes, the car is more responsive with more initial. It was good when I was just running 18* of initial but it liked the additional timing so I fed it until highest vacuum was reached. So are we talking about richening the idle mixture or is this about jets and needles too?
I was reading that having timing that's too retarded is also very bad for motors, something about the combustion process being adversely affected. How do I know if im reaching that point, without looking for glowing hot headers or boil overs?
Myk,
It most likely needs more fuel on the main jetting....not the idle circuit. Increased timing requires more fuel to maintain the correct A/F ratio.
Timing that is retarded can cause overheating ; this occurs when the fuel is not burned in the combustion chamber. If the timing is late..... unburnt fuel will ignite in the manifold/header and create a lot of exhaust heat.
Two different things that can lead to the same outcome. ;)
In your case the timing is not retarded so I'm leaning towards a lean main circuit in the carburetor :yesnod:
Ron
Ron thanks for getting back to me. I will go up a size in primary jets and maybe the needles too. I guess I can leave the secondaries alone? The car runs cool until I get into traffic, then I start seeing 230 or so. What is it they say? If you heat up on the freeway its an airflow problem, if you heat up in traffic its a coolant flow problem? Regardless, I want to keep the timing settings.
I'm installing a milidon water pump and that aluminum radiator from Engineered cooling products from eBay as well...
Quote from: myk on September 26, 2015, 12:05:05 AM
Ron thanks for getting back to me. I will go up a size in primary jets and maybe the needles too. I guess I can leave the secondaries alone? The car runs cool until I get into traffic, then I start seeing 230 or so. What is it they say? If you heat up on the freeway its an airflow problem, if you heat up in traffic its a coolant flow problem? Regardless, I want to keep the timing settings.
I'm installing a milidon water pump and that aluminum radiator from Engineered cooling products from eBay as well...
Hey Myk,
Did you ever get the jets changed? How hot is she running now?
You know, I never got around to the jets. After installing the aluminum radiator that Bryan talked me into, as well as the Milidon water pump that Ron suggested, and the Hayden/Jaguar clutch Dino mentioned, the car runs so cool, TOO COOL in fact, that I'm actually looking into a hotter t-stat to get her running warmer more consistently. As she is now, I get 140-160* on the freeway and 180-200* in traffic. I am also about to pull the trigger on a new Pro-form or Holley 4160 'carb so tuning the 'Eddy seems pointless to me...
Quote from: myk on October 24, 2015, 08:13:27 AM
You know, I never got around to the jets. After installing the aluminum radiator that Bryan talked me into, as well as the Milidon water pump that Ron suggested, and the Hayden/Jaguar clutch Dino mentioned, the car runs so cool, TOO COOL in fact, that I'm actually looking into a hotter t-stat to get her running warmer more consistently. As she is now, I get 140-160* on the freeway and 180-200* in traffic. I am also about to pull the trigger on a new Pro-form or Holley 4160 'carb so tuning the 'Eddy seems pointless to me...
Nice! I just put on a Proform 750 and LOVE IT!
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/danfrazz/1968%20Charger/IMG_8876_zpsum1ujarr.jpg) (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/danfrazz/media/1968%20Charger/IMG_8876_zpsum1ujarr.jpg.html)
Hey, where can I get one of these distributors. Is there a model # to order?
Quote from: blinkey on October 24, 2015, 11:11:14 AM
Hey, where can I get one of these distributors. Is there a model # to order?
Depends on what your ignition setup is. Points? Factory style electronic? MSD? Contact Ron, site Moderator, AKA Mopar Yoda and he will give you all the information you need; he's also a distributor so he can sell to you directly.
Quote from: 303 Mopar on October 24, 2015, 08:28:56 AM
Nice! I just put on a Proform 750 and LOVE IT!
Cool! What was your tuning experience like? Was it difficult?
I think I'm running a 195 thermostat.
I'm still thinking about getting the Street Demon carb, but I'm starting to look at the Proform 750 as well. I love spreadbores though so it'll take some swaying. ;)
Mines just a stock 69 440, and I think its a dog so I want to do something to spice her up
Can't go wrong with Firecore...
What wires did you get for the firecore? 8.5 or 7?
FireCore 50 Wires Pro Fit, OEM
Item #: CWSPF-1002
I had a fresh set of 8.5mm Taylor Spiro-Pro's on the parts shelf so I used those. I've used those wires for years-nothing but great results...
I was told to just put in a pertronix electronic ingition under my cap and it would do the same thing as putting in the firecore dist.,,,,true?
Firecore functions just like any other distributor, just better. The quality of the pieces and the level of adjustability guarantee that the unit will hold an accurate spark into higher RPM's. For the amount that the typical Firecore distributor costs, it's well worth the change.
My only gripe is not having a black cap with it lol...
Quote from: myk on October 28, 2015, 11:25:07 AM
Firecore functions just like any other distributor, just better. The quality of the pieces and the level of adjustability guarantee that the unit will hold an accurate spark into higher RPM's. For the amount that the typical Firecore distributor costs, it's well worth the change.
My only gripe is not having a black cap with it lol...
That what paint was invented for. :lol:
I have the black cap and now that I'm making the engine look stock I think I should've gone with the tan cap.
Quote from: myk on October 24, 2015, 11:23:46 AM
Quote from: 303 Mopar on October 24, 2015, 08:28:56 AM
Nice! I just put on a Proform 750 and LOVE IT!
Cool! What was your tuning experience like? Was it difficult?
Tuning the Proform was quick and easy. All adjustments are easily accessible , and you can see the fuel levels through the sight windows.
I ordered 8.5mm Firecore wires. True 50 ohm/ft wire, good boots and excellent clearance for my headers. Ron can order you up a custom length wire if your mounting the coil on the inner fender too.
I have those same wires with headers. Clearance is great and the wires and boots look like new after putting several thousand miles on them. :2thumbs:
I mounted the mini coil on my inner fender right below the washer bottle and the stock wire was long enough.