My daytona had no ribs with a build date 6-10.It has been said that some daytonas came originally with the ribbed hood.Would these be late production cars ? Mine had 000-000 stamped on the side lip of the hood.( fenders the same ) Do all the ribbed daytona hoods Have all 0s ? All 70 charger hoods I have seen do not .Whats your opinion ? Ribs or no ribs.
The main noticable thing as compared to a 70 charger hood.The under side of my 69 daytona hood has no crash ribs .I call them up in the front underside area Unlike the ones seen under 70 charger hoods. My 69 440 has no ribs and the original cars Ive seen dont have them either
The crash (or strengthening) ribs in the front underneath side of most Daytona hoods. I say most hoods, since there are some people whose Daytona hood has the ribs, and they swear up and down its original to their car. I would say that most cars' hoods did not have the ribs, but there are probably original cars with ribs in their hood.
Unless the guy bought the car new, there's no real way of knowing whether they're original or not. People like to think that their cars are all original. Gene Gregory was at my shop a few weeks ago and was telling me that he built several steel noses several years ago that were identical to the originals and they weren't cheap. I would bet money that most of those noses are on real daytonas right now and the current owners think that they are original. He can convert deck lids to look like original pieces as well.
That or if you have known the owner of the car, who bought it new, then you can be sure it has all origional sheet metal. Its hard to tell now a days, with as good of reproduction pieces as there is out there. The nose cones Gene did years ago were great repro's, and are very good. The deck lids he is going, are also great. I thought about picking up a spare for myself here a year or so ago. Now I wish that I had, seeing as the decklid on Ebay was at $3,500 the other day, and the seller of that one admited it was repaired and wasn't all origional. So to me what is the difference in that one, or one that is made by Gene? He makes them out of Charger Trunk lids, just cuts them like Creative did.
The price Gene quoted me on converting a deck lid last year was $1000, which at the time seemed a little high. Needless to say, it no longer seems high to me. I've put my Daytona clone project on hold and have started to collect parts to build a g-machine type Superbird clone. If or when I do the Daytona clone thing, I'll definitely hook up with Gene for the deck lid. The shaker hood setup for my 71 cuda that he made looks great. Most people can't tell it from an original.
I know my 69 440 daytona hood is original and smooth with no ribs The car was sold new in my local area .I got it from this guy who parked it in 77 with very low miles.It still has original fan belts hoses with hog ring clamps and factory lettered hoses original tires exhaust system both jacks etc.Some other reference original cars Ive studied also had the smooth hood.It might have been a car got in a fender bender in the following years.That replacement hood might have ribs.From being replaced as a later production part.My car has the typical grille square hole frame screen.But on a original survivor cars. Ive seen that got a later dealer replacement.Had the screen pattern like the superbirds used with the different screen holes pattern
I've restored a few '70 challengers that have been repaired (back in the '70's) with parts department replacement fenders that were made after the '72 challengers came out and they all have the notch in the top inner piece that bolts to the upper tie bar just like the '72 fenders. I've seen several '70's and '71's at car shows with the replacement fenders and when I get the chance to talk to the owners, I point it out just in case they ever notice the difference. We see design changes like this even today, especially in the rad supports. Rather than producing a new part entirely, the car companies will just incorporate the new changes into the old design support and make the parts universally fit the current and previous year models. Reduces inventory and of course investment dollars. I'm sure that if a daytona were repaired by a body shop back in the mid '70's, they would definitely have had the regular '69 or '70 style parts used since there were probably very few daytona specific parts ever warehoused. One thing that I've always assumed is that if the daytona were to have been continued in '70, they would almost certainly have used the newer style hood since it was altered to make it stiffer and presumably more crashworthy.
If I owned a daytona that needed a hood, I don't think that it would be that difficult to use a '70 hood and just remove the ribs and make the reinforcement smooth. I've certainly made more complicated alterations than that before.
I would remove the ribs from a 70 charger hood if I needed one.a As to paying $3000.00 for a real one thats on ebay
can someone please post a comparo pic?
Tthank you for your prompt attention in this manner. :icon_smile_big:
I fully intend to use a '70 Charger hood on my car, but the ribs will be removed since I can't say that they were there in the first place. The few pictures of the car I have with its original hood open don't show the front lip area.
I would be interested to know about the stampings (000-000) that 65post mentions, and if those are on other Daytona hoods. Where on the fenders would the stampings be? I still have original fenders, but the hood was toasted way back when.
Incidentally, all but one of the Canadian Daytonas had a VIN starting with 414, but they all had a build date of 6/10. Every Daytona built on the 10th was a Canadian car.
Do you have any pics of the number stampings, 65post (or anyone else?)
Here's a picture of a smooth hood (w/o the crash ribs):
Here's one I just took of the leading edge of the '70 Charger hood that is on my car now. To be modified someday...
Thank you Hemigeno.
( BTW: i remember something about the trunk inner bracing for the STOCK2nd Gen. Chargers too,.. ;))
OK, so why is a Daytona hood not just a '69 hood. Sorry if this is yet another well known detail!
i bought an old 70 charger hood yrs back and it's got no ribs. he said it was from a charger r/t. did some of these none ribed hoods make it onto regular chargers? i mean none daytona's
Quote from: nascarxx29 on January 11, 2006, 12:02:57 PM
I know my 69 440 daytona hood is original and smooth with no ribs The car was sold new in my local area .I got it from this guy who parked it in 77 with very low miles.It still has original fan belts hoses with hog ring clamps and factory lettered hoses original tires exhaust system both jacks etc.Some other reference original cars Ive studied also had the smooth hood.It might have been a car got in a fender bender in the following years.That replacement hood might have ribs.From being replaced as a later production part.My car has the typical grille square hole frame screen.But on a original survivor cars. Ive seen that got a later dealer replacement.Had the screen pattern like the superbirds used with the different screen holes pattern
Dave..................................like you, I've been looking at, studying, documenting wingcars; albeit for different reasons,........... the hood deliema?........I was once drawn to the same conclusions on the ribs,...........but after seeing original 70 chargers with both, and original daytonas with both! (handfull to date),..................a little investigation over the years with other "wingcar Guru's" revealed 2 seperate "inhouse/supplier" plants of charger hoods, thus the alterations in die stamps,.................A few people will tell you that hoods with ribs won't clear the latch tray rib(front rib)....................this is true only in one case, that being when you "push" the nose back to "flush fit" (approx. 3/4") it with the fenders, you must also modify the latch tray receiver strip to allow the nose and tray to move rearward................And I concur with you Dave on the Superbird "honeycone" grill material being used as dealer "fix it" for the daytona, I seen a handfull of daytona's repaired this way from the dealers on original owner cars,......................Dave, have you studied Bob malcolms "bird", the limelite 6 barrel survivor car, very few people notice the grille screen, it's Daytona material!...............whats interesting is the daytona grill screen as supplied to Creative Ind. was prefabed/sized by its Canadian vendor, thus it's size, 5 1/2"x24" and shape was established!.................the "birds" maul measures 8"x24"........where and when was a "chunk" of screen(daytona) installed in this bird?.............the Malcolms have no clue? only that its unique!.........................the only one I've seen!...............how bout' you Davey?.........MCG missed it, when they shot the car also!............note I do have gille mat'l (daytona style) cut to fit Birds, if somebody wants something different!..........W.Warriors daytona grille material manufactured for them is precut to 6"x24" prior to them receiving it..........just a notation!..................if your buying an original "daytona" hood, look at the hoodpin screw orintation, it should be front to back, side to side, not an X pattern! thats chrysler, not creative, same applies to 69 1/2 A12 lift off hoods, as creative did these cars as well!..........interesting note, talking about hood pins? the ones on the Malcolms Bird, the drivers side is in an X pattern (correct for a Bird!), but the passenger side is a north, south,east,west pattern like a daytona!.........maybe a Creative Ind. employee was on loan to the Superbird Clairpointe assy plant working on the passenger side assy line! :icon_smile_big: when the Malcolms car was made!
Mike G./ DAYCLONA
Rene,
It sounds like you scored big time on that 70 hood purchase. It's entirely possible that the early 70 hoods were just like the daytona hoods. They may have realized the problem with the crashworthiness early in production. Who knows.
As for 69 hoods, they roll down at the front edge and the 70 hood is tapered to a flat edge at the front. They're completely different.
On 68-69 charger trunk lids are correct for a daytona after you make the necessary modifications to them.If you was to use a 70 charger trunk lid.You would find extra cut outs in the bracing for the go wing cut outs only found on 70 charger trunk lids
Quote from: 69Charger500 on January 11, 2006, 05:37:37 PM
OK, so why is a Daytona hood not just a '69 hood. Sorry if this is yet another well known detail!
The short answer to this is that the Daytona was originally slated as a 1970 model, and to make its debut at Daytona in February of '70. When the C500 didn't capture the '69 Daytona 500 win, the Chrysler brass pushed the schedule up. If they were going to race it at the first-ever Talladega race (in September of '69), they had to have the cars built, converted and shipped out to the dealers prior to the race. That would be just as the new '70 models were coming out. The Daytona nosecone was designed using the '70 fenders & hood, so when they pushed production into the '69 model year, they had to put the '70 Charger derivative parts (Daytona front clip) on a '69 model year car. '69 front clips would not mate up to the nosecone.
The cars were built at Hamtramck with a complete '69 front clip, minus the grille. The outer fenders, hood and most everything forward of the radiator yoke were removed and replaced with Daytona parts.
Quote from: dayclona on January 11, 2006, 06:12:15 PM
a little investigation over the years with other "wingcar Guru's" revealed 2 seperate "inhouse/supplier" plants of charger hoods, thus the alterations in die stamps,.................
Was there any rhyme or reason to the use of one supplier over another -- Meaning after XX/XX/XX they used supplier #2? Do you know if both styles found throughout the '70 model year? I have kicked around the idea that a Detroit-area shop (or Hamtramck in-house) made the sheet metal used on Daytonas - since the Charger line in '70 was all made at the St. Louis plant. That might explain the differences between the two styles, but I do not know that to be fact. They could have easily sent any leftover hoods down to St. Louis, and used them on the assembly line there, rather than keeping them for NOS Daytona replacements (since there was essentially no difference). Just a thought...
Quote from: dayclona on January 11, 2006, 06:12:15 PM
A few people will tell you that hoods with ribs won't clear the latch tray rib(front rib)....................this is true only in one case, that being when you "push" the nose back to "flush fit" (approx. 3/4") it with the fenders, you must also modify the latch tray receiver strip to allow the nose and tray to move rearward................
Interesting, I did not know this, but could see how it would be the case.
Quote from: dayclona on January 11, 2006, 06:12:15 PM
W.Warriors daytona grille material manufactured for them is precut to 6"x24" prior to them receiving it..........just a notation!
Is that the grille material Wayne Perkins lists for sale?
Quote from: hemigeno on January 11, 2006, 06:37:32 PM
Quote from: dayclona on January 11, 2006, 06:12:15 PM
a little investigation over the years with other "wingcar Guru's" revealed 2 seperate "inhouse/supplier" plants of charger hoods, thus the alterations in die stamps,.................
Was there any rhyme or reason to the use of one supplier over another -- Meaning after XX/XX/XX they used supplier #2? Do you know if both styles found throughout the '70 model year? I have kicked around the idea that a Detroit-area shop (or Hamtramck in-house) made the sheet metal used on Daytonas - since the Charger line in '70 was all made at the St. Louis plant. That might explain the differences between the two styles, but I do not know that to be fact. They could have easily sent any leftover hoods down to St. Louis, and used them on the assembly line there, rather than keeping them for NOS Daytona replacements (since there was essentially no difference). Just a thought...
Quote from: dayclona on January 11, 2006, 06:12:15 PM
A few people will tell you that hoods with ribs won't clear the latch tray rib(front rib)....................this is true only in one case, that being when you "push" the nose back to "flush fit" (approx. 3/4") it with the fenders, you must also modify the latch tray receiver strip to allow the nose and tray to move rearward................
Interesting, I did not know this, but could see how it would be the case.
Quote from: dayclona on January 11, 2006, 06:12:15 PM
W.Warriors daytona grille material manufactured for them is precut to 6"x24" prior to them receiving it..........just a notation!
Is that the grille material Wayne Perkins lists for sale?
Gene, the rhyme and reason was tooling leadtime, units available asap...............the key words .as in all of industry, ...................the Daytona program was a "backdoor" opperation on Chryslers behalf, they never intended Joe Public a daytona, NASCAR/ FORD/GM helped raise the original ante of 50 cars, to 400, then to 500, Creative Ind. was suddenly beseized with building not 50, but 500 cars, Chrysler gearing up for 70 production, was scrambling to supply vendors (cheaply) and parts to Creative Ind..........the early (non ribbed) hoods were supplied via the Los Angeles stamper, as their facilities where faster to respond to Chrysler Central Office needs in suppling Creative Ind.
yes Gene, thats Perkins "screen", Wayne also offers the "port hole" screening under the scoops ( different pattern than grille)
Mike G/ DAYCLONA
Quote from: dayclona on January 11, 2006, 07:01:38 PM
the early (non ribbed) hoods were supplied via the Los Angeles stamper, as their facilities where faster to respond to Chrysler Central Office needs in suppling Creative Ind.
Ok, that's understandable. I wonder if the timeframe that a Daytona went through its conversion at Creative Industries played a role in whether or not it got a ribbed hood? Meaning if a car was converted and/or shipped late in the production run, it was more likely to get a hood with the crash ribs? The latest shipping date recorded for a Daytona is Sept 8th, and something tells me they were working on them up until the truck pulled away with the last batch of cars on it. Chrysler's assembly plants were into the second month of the model year run by then, so perhaps the "regular" stamper was supplying at least some of the hoods (with crash ribs) by then.
That doesn't explain, though, how a regular Charger ended up with a hood with no ribs... Was the LA stamper engaged to run regular parts, or just the quasi-Charger (Daytona) parts? I suppose they did both, since it's apparent that the no-rib hoods were on some non-Daytonas.
This whole issue would make more sense if they all had the same characteristics... meaning Daytona = no ribs, '70 Charger = ribs. This mix-n-match stuff is maddening, where all you have are tendencies rather than absolutes. Geez, if only Chrysler would have thought of us poor enthusiasts 37 years ago when they were lining these parts suppliers up... :P
Well Geno I guess that just chrysler for you.Not exact science in details.Ive seen on daytona.Where the headlight door had XX29 SAE and not on another.My daytona is fri built car .And has factory mistakes.The 2 holes and retainer in the rad yoke thats holds the vacuum lines in place.On my original rad support .Didnt recieve the 2 holes or the retainer.The drill guy at creative nicked my vent window frames with the side of a driill bit .When installing the a pillar stainless.And those screws for the a pillar are showing through the windshield gasket.Were caulked or puttyed was apllied and smoothed by maybe someones finger.The way you find certain areas of details .Is how original it iis to your car.The next car will probably gets it own individual special detail traits.Thats why you camera document your cars unique details before coming apart.And record for restoration detail
Quote from: hemigeno on January 11, 2006, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: dayclona on January 11, 2006, 07:01:38 PM
the early (non ribbed) hoods were supplied via the Los Angeles stamper, as their facilities where faster to respond to Chrysler Central Office needs in suppling Creative Ind.
Ok, that's understandable. I wonder if the timeframe that a Daytona went through its conversion at Creative Industries played a role in whether or not it got a ribbed hood? Meaning if a car was converted and/or shipped late in the production run, it was more likely to get a hood with the crash ribs? The latest shipping date recorded for a Daytona is Sept 8th, and something tells me they were working on them up until the truck pulled away with the last batch of cars on it. Chrysler's assembly plants were into the second month of the model year run by then, so perhaps the "regular" stamper was supplying at least some of the hoods (with crash ribs) by then.
That doesn't explain, though, how a regular Charger ended up with a hood with no ribs... Was the LA stamper engaged to run regular parts, or just the quasi-Charger (Daytona) parts? I suppose they did both, since it's apparent that the no-rib hoods were on some non-Daytonas.
This whole issue would make more sense if they all had the same characteristics... meaning Daytona = no ribs, '70 Charger = ribs. This mix-n-match stuff is maddening, where all you have are tendencies rather than absolutes. Geez, if only Chrysler would have thought of us poor enthusiasts 37 years ago when they were lining these parts suppliers up... :P
Gene, ...........Chrysler, like any manufacturer, is going to use any sub-vendor,pre-production supplies, alternate suppliers, post production supplies to arrive at one goal!, to supply market, and to do so on a timely manner!.....................these so-called Daytona "street versions" were slapped together!, Chrysler didn't care about QC, ......................there was no QS9000 back then!.....................remember, back then, as today, an automobile, no matter how"significant" was still a commmodity with a shelf life!.......................production cars of the 60-70's were not "held" in the same "leaque" as the cars of the 20-30's( an era of hand fabrication, in the regards to Duesenbergs, Abarths,Bugatti,etc,etc)...........anything "mass produced" after the late 40's, was production "trash"......................so Chrysler had no regard to future "collectabillity"...................where as today every peice of crap is marketed as a future collectable!!!!!!how many "fools" stepped up to buy a "pace car version whatever!".......................So Gene, in closing; like I tell anyone trying to make sense of wingcar madness, it was built along the rules of Kaos, therefore , Kaos is what you will find!..............never say never!
MIKE G/ DAYCLONA
Quote from: nascarxx29 on January 11, 2006, 08:10:14 PM
Well Geno I guess that just chrysler for you.Not exact science in details.Ive seen on daytona.Where the headlight door had XX29 SAE and not on another.My daytona is fri built car .And has factory mistakes.The 2 holes and retainer in the rad yoke thats holds the vacuum lines in place.On my original rad support .Didnt recieve the 2 holes or the retainer.The drill guy at creative nicked my vent window frames with the side of a driill bit .When installing the a pillar stainless.And those screws for the a pillar are showing through the windshield gasket.Were caulked or puttyed was apllied and smoothed by maybe someones finger.The way you find certain areas of details .Is how original it iis to your car.The next car will probably gets it own individual special detail traits.Thats why you camera document your cars unique details before coming apart.And record for restoration detail
Dave,................I remember many years back , seeing an inhouse memo from Creative Industries, I believe offering an additional 50 cents per hour per employee working overtime ( hey! 50 cents went far in 69!) assembiling Daytonas, to hastenen production, also a newspaper ad looking for temporary "automotive minded" individuals to assist in some automotive assy at Creative Ind, (assembiling Daytonas, unbeknownst to the applicants) I believe Radke had these, later posted in W, Warrior newsletters?
Mike G/ DAYCLONA
Great reading guys.
I was looking at the Malcom's Superbird a few years ago, but never started going over it with a fine tooth comb. I just looked at it for about 5 minutes, as I tend to spend the most amount of time staring at Daytona's and not the Birds.
I have to wonder if the non ribbed hoods ,were found to have a weakness,perhaps from crash tests ect... those Daytona peices were preproduction 70 Charger peices,and maybe the problem was discovered before the Daytona run was completed. That would explain why the earliest Daytonas had the smooth hoods,and some of the later cars had the ribbed hood. I believe that at that time,they had decided that those hoods were going to be the hood for the 70 Charger,and maybe they reworked the underside panel for the 70 production run,during the Daytona run!
And it's also possible that some of the early daytona hoods were used on production '70's if the assembly line ran short of if someone just decided to liquidate excess stock. It's possible that no one even thought about the design change.
I manage a GM dealership body shop and we see all kinds of strange things when it comes to parts. We think that a lot of the parts that didn't fit right on the assembly line are boxed up and sent out as replacement parts through parts distribution. We've had unopened boxed parts that show signs of having been at least partially installed.
You just never know what all happened back then...anything's possible.
Quote from: chargervert on January 12, 2006, 10:10:36 AM
I have to wonder if the non ribbed hoods ,were found to have a weakness,perhaps from crash tests ect... those Daytona peices were preproduction 70 Charger peices,and maybe the problem was discovered before the Daytona run was completed. That would explain why the earliest Daytonas had the smooth hoods,and some of the later cars had the ribbed hood. I believe that at that time,they had decided that those hoods were going to be the hood for the 70 Charger,and maybe they reworked the underside panel for the 70 production run,during the Daytona run!
Pete that's what I've always thought too, and I've even posted essentially that same opinion elsewhere. We're left to just guessing though.
Looking at this particular subject, a car's build date at Hamtramck isn't as important as when the car went through Creative Industries. We've assumed that the ship date out of Creative Ind. is some indication of when/what order the cars were converted, but that's more than likely not an absolute order either. If we knew which Daytonas had smooth vs. crash-rib configurations, and could compare that to the actual order/sequence they went through at Creative, AND knew which regular (non-Daytona) Chargers had smooth vs. crash-rib configurations to see if those were early-built cars, we MIGHT be able to draw some conclusions.
A whole lot of details needed to figure this pattern out (if there even IS a pattern) are left unknown, which basically forces us to guess. Mike pointed out that a Los Angeles-based stamping company is the source of what we have assumed is the early-style non-ribbed hood. What we don't know is if the LA plant changed their stampings to make hoods with ribs later on, or did all of the LA-stamped hoods have no ribs?
'69 hoods have some sort of similar crash ribs on them too (or at least my January-built car does), so the testing that indicated a weakness/defect/safety issue might have been extrapolated from an earlier year. It may have taken one of the pocket-protector-and-slide-rule engineers a few weeks/months of production at Creative Ind. (and/or the St. Louis assembly plant??) to realize that the ribs weren't on Daytona (and early '70 cars??) hoods, but again, that's a total guess.
I had heard that the design of the '70 Charger front clip was already established before the Daytona went into production. Under that scenario, the Daytona nose was designed around the production pieces, not the other way around. I don't have any documentation on that, but there was a definite trend with Chrysler going to loop bumpers on several car lines around that time.
Personally, I agree with you in thinking that the Daytona parts are essentially pre-production pieces, the design of which was perhaps modified during the run as you indicated. That's up for debate, and there are reasons why that might not be true.
Mike is right (and I knew this already) that no one cared too much about quality or standardization. I was being sarcastic when I lamented about Chrysler's lack of concern for scrutiny of their manufacturing processes 37 years later. These cars were viewed as commodities, to be churned out and shipped as fast as possible. ALL of the guys I've talked with that worked in the assembly plants back then will quickly relay that mindset... "Ship It" was a common refrain, along with "the Dealer will fix that"... :rotz:
Quote from: hotrod98 on January 12, 2006, 11:13:27 AM
And it's also possible that some of the early daytona hoods were used on production '70's if the assembly line ran short of if someone just decided to liquidate excess stock. It's possible that no one even thought about the design change.
That would make perfect sense, if all (or almost all) Daytona's had smooth hoods, and only early '70 Chargers were found with smooth hoods. Unfortunately, it seems like some Daytona's had ribbed hood's (we don't know if a late conversion date played a role) and some '70 Chargers had smooth hoods (again, we don't know if an early build date played a role). They apparently mixed some of both styles in the respective production lines, which makes your last comment apropos:
Quote from: hotrod98 on January 12, 2006, 11:13:27 AM
You just never know what all happened back then...anything's possible.
Boy, that's the truth...
Just curious Hemi Geno the daytona that guy found in St Louis.The red one with 68 markers in the nose .Did you get any underhood pictures from it .Did he ever sell it
No, I didn't take any pictures, but it was in sad shape. My "favorite" modification was the fender scoops being turned around backwards...
I talked with the owner's dad about 1-1/2 months ago at a local restaurant, and they still had it. More than likely, they'll end up restoring it themselves. They've done cars as tough as that one is, and it would make even hlpag think twice... What I'm trying to say, is that they've got some serious talent in fixing rustbuckets up, and they will need all of their talent to fix it.
The hood was a smooth hood, incidentally (I did look). It's a 5/16 Build, 8/24 Ship Date, #65 on the list.
Hey Geno,I looked that Daytona over,at the Nats. I have fixed some rusty New England Chargers,over the years,but that one is a little scary! It's not that it is not restorable,but not only do you have to deal with the rust issues,but you also have to undo the major hack job,that was done to the car! I think the more that you get into it,the more hacked things you would find! The only thing scarier than the thought of restoring that car,was the six figure asking price! That scared the hell out of me!
Thanks Hemi Geno.I did find the ad but it didnt show much detail.But I did notice it was the only one sold from King Dodge.And your #65 confirms it .
**Inactive Link Removed**
Pete, you may still have only seen the tip of the iceberg even (sounds like you looked it over, but it was hard to see everything there in a Swap Meet space). I went to Clayton's shop and spent about 3 hours crawling all over and under it 2 weeks after he got it, even had it on a lift. And you ain't kidding about the hack job modifications... I still haven't figured out what all of the condensing units/coolers are for which you referred to. There was one for the A/C, one for the auto trans, and a mystery third one. That poor nose was absolutely butchered to allow enough airflow to do the combined cooling systems any good at all, and the work done on the firewall/floorboard replacement would be grounds for a malpractice suit against even a dis-reputable body man.
As far as the asking price, I told him he was way over (double) what he should feel happy with getting for the car. Clayton readily admitted he was asking a whole lot, but his rationale was he wanted to see if someone wanted the car worse than he wanted to keep it. I think he would have been honestly surprised if someone bought it at that price. I told him over and over that you don't get many chances to be the second owner of a Daytona and he oughta keep it. Maybe that's why he set the price so high - so no one WOULD buy it and he'd be "forced" to restore it himself...
It'll be a sweet car when it's brought out of the '70s custom time warp it's in. Sure is a neat story about how he got it though!
Dave, looks like the asking price has come down. I didn't even think it was still listed - thanks for the link. It's still not a bargain by any means, considering the volume of the sheet metal that has been converted to rust particles. Clayton reminds me when I mention his asking prices that at least his car runs ::)
It was definitely the only one sold from King Dodge. The original owner had a '68 Charger R/T, which explains why you see '68 marker lights on the car now - he liked them better than the reflectors. He was driving by King Dodge, saw the Daytona inside and went in to talk with a salesman about trading in his '68 on the Daytona. There was apparently another gentleman in the dealership at the same time trying to buy the car, and they got into an altercation right there in the showroom. Had to be separated... I saw some dealership paperwork on this car, and IIRC the initial selling price (before trade-in) was in excess of $5,000 - well over the MSRP. It sold in early September of 1969 (like Sept 8th or 9th), which means that particular car didn't sit around long at all.
My paperwork shows my car $5155.75 in 4-25-70
So here is the question, for $89K now, it is in the same ball park range as the Yellow Daytona that sold for $82K that was a project car as well. Does he really want to sell the car, or keep the car?
I don't remember - did the yellow car actually sell for $82k? While I haven't seen that car up close, from what I saw in the ebay ad it is an absolute gem of a car compared to the V2 car my friend has. IIRC both cars had all their Daytona parts, but I am not exaggerating when I say that absolutely ever body panel on the V2 car has serious rust issues. What sheetmetal has already been replaced may as well not have been, since it was so poorly done. And like Pete said, there was a major hatchet job done to several areas of the car that will have to be fixed as well.
I think both cars had all their Daytona-specific parts, but the yellow car was much less of a restoration project and therefore a much better "bargain" (strange to say that at these dollar amounts).
I had heard from his dad that he was going to keep and restore the car, so I was a little surprised to see the price dropped in the link Dave posted. Both Clayton and his dad do go through a lot of cars though, and I've really tried to impress on him how rare it is for a real Daytona to pop up for sale at the price they had to pay (I won't ruin anyone's day by posting that amount). If the price keeps lowering, I'll have to go have another pep talk with him...
Don't have a pep talk with him until the price of it, gets down to realistic.I mean needing a lot or not, its still a Daytona, and I"d still be happy to own it.
Danny, if I thought you were going to make a run at the car, I'd do what I could to help you get it. If he keeps inching down on the price though, someone will take a flyer on it before it gets to a "realistic" price.
I'm in no way, shape, or form in any kind of a financial situation to make a play on that car now. I'd love to own a Daytona, and you know that I would take one in any shape or form. Doesn't matter to me how crappy or rusted they are, I would take one. A Daytona is a Daytona. You don't get those shots everyday. But at this point in time, it is just a dream, I have to find a job first. One that won't fold up their company doors on me as fast as the last place.
Here are a couple of shots of that car in the swap meet at the Nats last summer.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/Ghoste/funkyday.jpg)
And the interior.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/Ghoste/funkyday2.jpg)
Geno,when I was in high school,and we got our year books,there was a girl,in the book,that all the guys said,we have been here for four years,and we haven't seen that beautiful girl in that photo,that she had done for the year book! when we found out who the girl was,we said that cannot be her! She went to one of those glammor shot studios,and they worked some kind of miricles with her for the photos! Thats what those pictures,that you posted did for that car! That is a car that you have to see that car in person,to really evaluate its condition! I wouldn't want to buy that one off E bay,just by looking at the photos! It would be quite a shock,when that one showed up at the door! It's like you said,the car in not unfixable,but you would need to diesect a complete rust free Charger,to save it! Was it numbers matching? It does have all of the Daytona specific peices,which is a big plus for the car,but with the price in the eighties, its still quite a stretch! I think its like you said,he really wants to keep the car! If he bought it right,then he will have the room,moneywise, to give the car a proper resto,and maybe still come out of it even,from an investment stand point! As far as someone else buying the car,and doing the same,even if they bought it in the sixties,I don't think at this point they could break even! If the market keeps going the way it is,then maybe I could be wrong! The Y2 car was a better deal!,But the white one that just sold at $120,000 was a better deal than both of them!
This white one that was Jims at one sold for $120K
**Inactive Link Removed**
This one appears to be uncomplete.Was there more parts to go with it. http://www.cars-on-line.com/22714.html
Yeah the Y2 Yellow one there had all of the rest of the parts to go with it. Just aren't shown in those few photo's.
I wasn't aware that the White one, that was a factory Bronze car sold for $120K. That seems like a heck of a deal.
Quote from: Ghoste on January 13, 2006, 04:40:37 PM
Here are a couple of shots of that car in the swap meet at the Nats last summer.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/Ghoste/funkyday.jpg)
And the interior.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/Ghoste/funkyday2.jpg)
Lets face it, anybody that buys that car, after a day of tearing it down, evaluating it,.............will roll the donor body next to it, and transplant surgery will comense! .....sorry but that's the truth!, behind closed doors!..................I saw the car :o rust bucket?..........bucket of $hit!......................and Petey you thought my "white" daytona project was a basket case!................that car was a Georgia peach compared to this one!
Mike G/ DAYCLONA
I thought I had more pics of the back of the car too but I can't seem to find those now. It wasn't any better at that end though, I do recall that.
There's not a single person who has looked at the car without a similar reaction to those expressed on this thread. It's rough, but it's still a Daytona. And while it would be easier to transplant the numbers to a donor car, I know Clayton and his dad well enough to guarantee they would never do such a thing. Ever. If they sell the car to someone else, now that's another story...
It is a numbers-matching engine, but the transmission is not. I took a close look at both when under the car. The interesting thing about the engine is that it has a late November, 68 casting date while the engine has a correct early May assembly date. I do not question for a moment whether or not this is the original engine - it is. I just found that casting date to be a little unusual.
Pete, we have about the same idea on what the car was worth. I told Clayton from the start that he could probably get in the $50k's for the car, and I agree that much of anything over that would make the car a breakeven proposition from a value standpoint unless prices continue to really rise (which they might). Betting on such an increase is more speculation than anything, and there are much better cars out there to try that strategy on.
Ghoste, thanks for posting the pics. I thought I had some, but haven't found them yet.
Geno
Interesting how this thread went from a Daytona' hood topic to a discussion on this car. Oh, Gene just curious but the build sheet he found in that car, I know he hooked up with the owner at the nationals. But the guy who had the Q5 car, had another build sheet, did he give that one to Clayton? I believe it was for a Y2 yellow car.
I think that they should keep this car, and work on it over a long time frame. I don't think its beyond repair, but it definately would need a ton of work. Yeah it would be easier to rebody it, but that wouldn't be right either. One of these days I'll find one I can afford, until then I'll enjoy the 500.
I've found Hemi casting dates to have a lot of discrepancies compared to the normal rules of thumb on that. As near as I've been able to find out, Hemi castings were made in more infrequent batches than say, 440 blocks, so it isn't an unusual spread really to have the casting and assembly dates that far apart. It's a Hemi anamoly.
How many Hemi blocks were cast in 67?
Quote from: 69_500 on January 14, 2006, 08:17:04 PM
Gene just curious but the build sheet he found in that car, I know he hooked up with the owner at the nationals. But the guy who had the Q5 car, had another build sheet, did he give that one to Clayton? I believe it was for a Y2 yellow car.
Yes, I was given that Y2 build sheet by Clayton, and in turn I gave it to Doug Schellinger. He was able to reunite it with the correct car's owner, Dean R. from Texas after running a blurb on this "found" build sheet in the DSAC newsletter. I was glad to see Dean get his sheet, and I'm sure it came as somewhat of a (very pleasant) surprise to him...
You never know where one of these aero car threads is gonna end up, do ya?
Quote from: Ghoste on January 14, 2006, 08:37:15 PM
I've found Hemi casting dates to have a lot of discrepancies compared to the normal rules of thumb on that. As near as I've been able to find out, Hemi castings were made in more infrequent batches than say, 440 blocks, so it isn't an unusual spread really to have the casting and assembly dates that far apart. It's a Hemi anamoly.
How many Hemi blocks were cast in 67?
Ghoste, I've seen the same thing you have on Hemi cast vs. assembly dates, especially in the '67 and '68 model years. I've heard that they made a bunch of blocks in '66, and didn't make too many after that until the supply ran out during the 68 model year. I don't know the actual production numbers though.
Just to be clear, the V2 Daytona is a 440 car, not a Hemi. If it was a Hemi, it would be a bargain at $90k even as bad off as that body is. I just thought that its cast/assembly date spread was a little abnormal for a 440, considering how many of those they went through.
Even though we got off the hood subject a little bit .It still was helpfull to get a fair assesment of the 2 daytonas.The Y2 and the V2 current evaluations of worth in there present conditions. In comparision of these 2,Of what value in todays market could be given to a all correct numbers car.Reference original 22k miles Parked in 1977.In a present unrestored form.
http://www.carsinbarns.com/Superbirds%20&%20Daytonas/pg22.html
I'm not paying attention I guess Geno, I don't know why I started talking about Hemi's and I knew that car was a 440. It's late, time to pack it in.
Hey Dave,as I have stated to you before,I don't think you,I or most of the people on this board could afford to buy your car on todays market! That is unless we wanted to live in it! Although a Charger could probably sleep a family of 4!
I don't know what value your car would bring on the open market Dave. It surely wouldn't be cheap.
I didn't know that was the broadcast sheet that was listed as reunited with the owner. So all in all with the finding of this Daytona, and it being at the nationals, 2 Daytona owner got their buildsheets. Great news.
These prices today.Are far from what Im used to But if your gonna get a deal it wont be on the internet.Even today in my travels .Off the front page radar screen for years .Ive gotten 40mi Ebody $250.00 70 E conv body Project $50.00.Found Dayclona Mikes partner Gary Mendelow a 69 charger 500 for under $1500.00.That one was in the 80s .But still today I turn up deals .And throw them a deal
One must never say never, however I've never seen a 70 Charger without the ribs. I've been through all the pictures I've filed over the years and every one has ribs. The infamous FC7 70 Daytona R/T SE wanna-be also looks like it has ribs.
I started a thread on this at the 70 Charger Registry and so far everyone is "ribbed". That includes August and September 69 built cars.
I'd love to see more on this.
In the 1970 Chrysler Parts Manual the 70 Charger hood is part number 3417057 and the notation says this was also used on the 1969 Daytona.
I have 11, 70 Charger hoods,I'm gonna check them all to see if there are any with out the ribs! Who knows maybe I will find one without them,and that will be the hood I use for my clone!
Hi Dodge Don .I noticed you have a 70 RT SE V code charger.My friend has a 70 FC7 440-6 4 speed super track pack car Am 8 track 6 way seat etc options.Dont see to many RT SE 440-6 ,More seldom seen is just a RT
Quote from: Dodge Don on January 15, 2006, 01:36:24 PM
One must never say never, however I've never seen a 70 Charger without the ribs. I've been through all the pictures I've filed over the years and every one has ribs. The infamous FC7 70 Daytona R/T SE wanna-be also looks like it has ribs.
I started a thread on this at the 70 Charger Registry and so far everyone is "ribbed". That includes August and September 69 built cars.
I'd love to see more on this.
In the 1970 Chrysler Parts Manual the 70 Charger hood is part number 3417057 and the notation says this was also used on the 1969 Daytona.
The "Great Hood" debate!...............can't wait when the study turns to the safety latch, modified 69 / 70?............see mostly 69 latches,........howvever a few modified 70 pcs on original cars,........................lanyards?.........have seen 3 configurations,............everybody in agreement on hood pin benzel orintation?
Mike G/ DAYCLONA
Hmmm, so the latches vary too? Only kidding, yeah it seems that many of the parts on these cars vary from car to car. Was it due to multiple supliers? Or the vast time difference in when one car could have left Creative, and another began to be put together? I don't know. I wasn't there. All I can say for certain is this, there is hardly any 2 cars that Mopar put out in that era that are exactly alike.
Thats right Dan,and thats why I wouldn't want to be the GURU of this hobby!
I'll agree with you on that one Pete. There was so much going on that wasn't suppposed to be going on back them. They had a list of rules and order to follow, but much like a work place today, not everyone follows the orders. If a part fit, they used it. Even if it was the wrong one. I mean heck look at all the runs in paint on origional paint cars? Were they in a hurry there or what?
I think everyone agrees that there are exceptions to every "rule", especially when it comes to MaMopar.
Anyone who aspires to the position of MoparGuru is only setting themselves up for failure if they deal in absolutes. However, we can certainly figure out how the majority of Daytonas were built.
Most Daytona hoods did not have crash ribs.
Most Daytona safety latches were '69s with no pull rod
Most Daytona's hood pin bezels were in a "+"
etc. etc...
There are original cars out there with exceptions, no doubt about it. But there are also tons of guys, not necessarily Daytona owners, who claim their car (or another type of car) was made a certain way from the factory, when it almost certainly was not. I meet those guys at every show, and they're a constant source of entertainment for me, anyway. So, should you believe every person's claims? Others might, but I wouldn't without doing a whole lot more investigation. I do, however, know better than to say that every car was made exactly the same, because that's just not true either.
Since my car is missing its original hood and other hood-related components (due to the engine fire), I will use what "most" Daytona's had on them as guidance for how I restore my car. It's almost impossible to argue that a particular car was one of the exceptions to the rule-of-thumb. If I could prove it was original, I'd leave it the way it was. That's not the case with my car, so the accepted "norms" are a much better alternative IMHO.
We can get technical and say that each time a question is answered a disclaimer should be attached saying that some original cars do differ from how the majority were built. That should be understood by anyone within the Mopar hobby to begin with, if they've been around it very long. If someone owns a car with unusual traits, be proud of it and leave it just like it is. I personally wouldn't use such exceptions to sway others to restore their cars with such traits though.
:Twocents:
The Mopar disclaimer, The views expressed,by this wanna be Mopar Guru,are not the views of the real Mopar Guru,therefore,are believed to be pure fabricated bullshit! We reserve the right to say Mopar "never built them like that" at any time We feel the need to do so! We also reserve the right to say your car is incorrect,and to have your car destoryed,so others like it are not spawned by it! These views are not to be used without the expressed written consent of NASCAR,or the NFL! The side effects,are dry throat,nausia,vomiting,erratic,and irritable bowel movements! Super colin blow is not for everyone,contact your doctor,or guru immeadiately if any of these symptoms occur! P.S. no actual records exist to verify any of this! Any relation to real life events,is purely coincidential,and this post is purely fictional! Do not try this at home,this bullshit is being spread by professionals,with SPECIALIZED SPECIALIZED skills in the field of B.S. Some of us even have Degrees in B.S. This disclaimer meets all federal,state,and local copyright laws,and dupilication,is illeagal,and vilolators will be prosicuted to the full extent of the law! These are not the views of this poster!
Quote from: chargervert on January 16, 2006, 10:59:22 AM
The Mopar disclaimer, The views expressed,by this wanna be Mopar Guru,are not the views of the real Mopar Guru,therefore,are believed to be pure fabricated bullshit! We reserve the right to say Mopar "never built them like that" at any time We feel the need to do so! We also reserve the right to say your car is incorrect,and to have your car destoryed,so others like it are not spawned by it! These views are not to be used without the expressed written consent of NASCAR,or the NFL! The side effects,are dry throat,nausia,vomiting,erratic,and irritable bowel movements! Super colin blow is not for everyone,contact your doctor,or guru immeadiately if any of these symptoms occur! P.S. no actual records exist to verify any of this! Any relation to real life events,is purely coincidential,and this post is purely fictional! Do not try this at home,this bullshit is being spread by professionals,with SPECIALIZED SPECIALIZED skills in the field of B.S. Some of us even have Degrees in B.S. This disclaimer meets all federal,state,and local copyright laws,and dupilication,is illeagal,and vilolators will be prosicuted to the full extent of the law! These are not the views of this poster!
:shruggy:
Did I offend you, Pete, and if so, what statement offended you?
:ahum:
I don't think he meant that anyone offended him, I think he was just making a point. There should be a disclamer out there for Mopars. Never say never, and never say that they only did something this way and only this way.
No Geno,not at all,I just thought it would be funny to write an actual disclaimer! I think you made a valid point about it!
I was kinda hoping for a few laughs! You know a tension breaker!
Hmmm, a little comic relief. Which is always a good thing to have.
These aero threads lately have gone in some weird circles.
QuoteThese aero threads lately have gone in some weird circles
:iagree:
I laughed at the disclaimer.
The hood latch Ive seen on daytonas .Is like the one on my car.Looks to be the regular 69 charger piece.Without the pull handle and bracket . Is there another type used.
I think that there are few cars that have modified 70 latches on them. Haven't seen too many of them this way, but I do recall 1 for sure. But I think that it was more like a handful or so.
I just read some new info on the 1970 charger board on the hood discussion .And some posted a time line.
Feb built 500- ribbed
June built 500- ribbed
Two Dec built R/T's - ribbed
Never noticed this before or that 70 trunk lids had cut outs for the go wing. Learn something all the time here.
Old thread I know....but I just saw the hood on that moss covered barn find Daytona on TV....no ribs on the underside of the hood
Quote from: A383Wing on January 22, 2016, 03:26:34 PM
Old thread I know....but I just saw the hood on that moss covered barn find Daytona on TV....no ribs on the underside of the hood
That means it's a real Daytona hood.
So did all Daytonas have no ribs on their hoods ??
Did they ever make any 70 Chargers with no ribs ?????
Quote from: 70 sublime on January 22, 2016, 08:53:41 PM
So did all Daytonas have no ribs on their hoods ??
Did they ever make any 70 Chargers with no ribs ?????
did you start reading from page 1 ?
OK so I read through it all
Still do not understand how if some Daytonas had no ribs and some had ribs (later built cars with newer parts ? ) how could some 70 Chargers have no ribs if they used up all the no rib hoods on the Daytonas
I have these 2 hoods in my spare parts pile one of each
Is there a part number someplace on the no rib hood to look for ?
early hoods didn't have the holes at the cowl end for the hood turn signal wiring either
Quote from: 70 sublime on January 22, 2016, 11:00:39 PM
OK so I read through it all
Still do not understand how if some Daytonas had no ribs and some had ribs (later built cars with newer parts ? ) how could some 70 Chargers have no ribs if they used up all the no rib hoods on the Daytonas
I have these 2 hoods in my spare parts pile one of each
Is there a part number someplace on the no rib hood to look for ?
How about pics of the lower left and right areas of the hood, with the cowl seal removed.
There is more to a Daytona hood than the lack of ribs. :Twocents:
Post those pics and I will let you know what to look for. :cheers:
Quote from: 70 sublime on January 22, 2016, 11:00:39 PM
OK so I read through it all
Still do not understand how if some Daytonas had no ribs and some had ribs (later built cars with newer parts ? ) how could some 70 Chargers have no ribs if they used up all the no rib hoods on the Daytonas
I have these 2 hoods in my spare parts pile one of each
Is there a part number someplace on the no rib hood to look for ?
Questions we will probably never have the answers to, I've been told over the years from some very knowledgeable sources that there were 3 supply vendors for "70" Charger hoods, which would make some since seeing the various deviations in design/construction, we all know that Chrysler would use up allocated stock with no rhyme or reason, that's why some cars have/may use early or late pieces/components on them with no regard to build dates/production schedules, I know some attribute the no rib hood to being Daytona specific because of supposed latch tray interference, but I have viewed a handful of Tona's over the years that did have ribbed hoods on them, seemingly original looking cars, sorry but I was never really interested in VON's/ scheduled build dates in regards to the hood rib mystery to compile a data base
Mike
Mike, thanks for the insight about the different vendors. Like a lot of other things on the cars where there were multiple vendors, differences between vendors make a lot of since.
Not being a Daytona owner, if someone really wanted a non-ribbed hood but if they had a ribbed hood that had been replaced on a car; hasn't someone figured out how to pull a hood apart, put a non ribbed front on a proper back or whole underside from a second car, then put the whole thing back together again?
Quote from: Redbird on January 23, 2016, 12:46:10 PM
Not being a Daytona owner, if someone really wanted a non-ribbed hood but if they had a ribbed hood that had been replaced on a car; hasn't someone figured out how to pull a hood apart, put a non ribbed front on a proper back or whole underside from a second car, then put the whole thing back together again?
Done all the time, even on those supposed "all-original" restored "fully documented" Tona' restorations...lol
Mike
Quote from: 70 sublime on January 22, 2016, 11:00:39 PM
OK so I read through it all
Still do not understand how if some Daytonas had no ribs and some had ribs (later built cars with newer parts ? ) how could some 70 Chargers have no ribs if they used up all the no rib hoods on the Daytonas
Plus another option to investigate is the "safety factor" mandated by Federal Crash guidelines, perhaps the "early" run of hoods that didn't have the ribs either because the hoods didn't need them because of the nosecone?, or perhaps it was later found that they were required by Federal guidelines?, so either they were later retooled?, or another vendor supplied a superseded replacement? or with 70 Charger production around the corner it was a new requirement?...just look at the 70 E body Shaker Hood (Challenger) crumple/non crumple zone rib scenario that caused the hood option to be suspended in the middle of production, and re-offered in 1970 after Federal guideline crash spec'd hoods were available
Mike
Quote from: A383Wing on January 22, 2016, 11:22:22 PM
early hoods didn't have the holes at the cowl end for the hood turn signal wiring either
My 70 hood (908 build) is ribbed (for my pleasure) however does not have the holes at the cowl for the hood turn signal wiring. There are holes for wiring clips for running the wires under the hood (not through the hood as typical). I was the only 70 at Carlisle with this anomaly.
Maybe the ribs have nothing to do with the daytona. Maybe they started to 70 design without them and a few of the personnel bent the front lip of the hood when slamming it shut on the first few cars. A revision was designed and Chrysler said "use the old ones up on the daytonas!".