I have an ad over in the wanted section for a serrated washer that goes on the intake manifold bolt.
This is found on the 440 Six Barrel Superbird manifold bolt that holds the throttle return spring bracket.
I have had a reply from a forum member that has a friend with an original car where there is NO washer here.
His theory is that the serrations in the bracket are actually for the negative battery cable end under it and no need for a washer above?
So I would like for owners of original - survivor type cars to check this bolt and washer and get back with a picture.
Maybe I don't need a washer? Maybe I do?
I have attached a picture of a friends car with a washer installed.
I am also interested in the logo of the manifold bolts on Superbirds with cast six barrel intakes.
Thanks! MJ
Even in that picture John, are you sure it's not just the serrations showing? Have you confirmed there is indeed a washer there??
Wayne,
The car from this example is in storage and not available to check out.
At this point I am not sure!
Maybe Jim ( maxwellwedge ) will see this and help me out?
I don't think I'm lucky enough to just remove a incorrect washer to make things right!
I have a picture of his engine but it's from the passengers side and not close enough to help.
Thanks! John
I could be incorrect as the L O N G C O L D winter has likely clouded my memory, but is the bracket possibly stamped/embossed with that feature at that hole?
YES Dave, the brackets are ALL stamped with serrations so they bite into the ground cable end when tightened down. If you look at the bottom of the bracket, the serrations are there. I've never seen a washer on it to match..
So my car is here and I decided to get into this a bit more!
My first picture shows my six barrel throttle return bracket with the incorrect solid washer.
At this point I was glad that I saw the serrations there in my bracket!
The second picture shows the top side of my bracket with the serrations.
The third picture shows the bottom of my bracket.
I don't see any serrations that would hold the negative battery cable end!
The last picture shows it put together without a washer.
The lack of paint makes it difficult to see how it would look without any washer.
After looking at mine and my friends above I do think he has a washer there by the sharp edges!
I didn't tighten it back up till I decide what I will do?
MJ
Maybe because someone got stupid like me John and "cleaned" it up for a good ground. I'l await the experts to chime in for us...
I know a member that has an NOS bracket and now that this issue has come up I've asked for a picture of the back side.
MJ
:2thumbs: BTW.. you forgot to put your negative cable back under the bracket! :icon_smile_big:
MJ, My 440 6bbl return spring bracket has the same serrations on top. They look exactly like yours. And using a socket to tighten it down took the paint off off the high spots to make it really show. I did not have a washer on mine.....but that ain't to say it wasn't removed in the last 50 years. Let me know if you want pics. Graybo
:2thumbs:
John, Here is a section of the Engineering Drawing for that area. Its number 24 and in the parts list it lists 6027332 SC & WA assy. Screw and washer is my take on it. The bolt actually looks like it has a washer on it it the drawing. The NOS bracket John refers to is mine and has serrations on the top side only. None on the bottom. John has the pictures of it and I'll let him post them. I envision a washer with mating serrations on the bottom side and flat on the top. (bolt head side) You can't just turn a bolt head into the serrations without tearing the serrations up as John's bracket shows evidence of. If the washer serrations seat into the bracket's serrations the bolt can spin and tighten down on the washer top side without tearing anything up. What I don't know is if the bolt and washer are separate pieces or is it a bolt with a captive washer. Having only one part number would kind of indicate the latter.
:Twocents:
Quote from: graybo on February 26, 2020, 07:24:38 PM
MJ, My 440 6bbl return spring bracket has the same serrations on top. They look exactly like yours. And using a socket to tighten it down took the paint off off the high spots to make it really show. I did not have a washer on mine.....but that ain't to say it wasn't removed in the last 50 years. Let me know if you want pics. Graybo
John,
Your info is good enough for now ( no washer ).
But I would be curious on the logos of your intake manifold bolts?
Thanks! John
Quote from: Davtona on February 26, 2020, 08:13:48 PM
John, Here is a section of the Engineering Drawing for that area. Its number 24 and in the parts list it lists 6027332 SC & WA assy. Screw and washer is my take on it. The bolt actually looks like it has a washer on it it the drawing. The NOS bracket John refers to is mine and has serrations on the top side only. None on the bottom. John has the pictures of it and I'll let him post them. I envision a washer with mating serrations on the bottom side and flat on the top. (bolt head side) You can't just turn a bolt head into the serrations without tearing the serrations up as John's bracket shows evidence of. If the washer serrations seat into the bracket's serrations the bolt can spin and tighten down on the washer top side without tearing anything up. What I don't know is if the bolt and washer are separate pieces or is it a bolt with a captive washer. Having only one part number would kind of indicate the latter.
:Twocents:Dave,
Thanks for posting the engineering drawing showing the bolt and washer with a part number and letting me use your bracket pictures!
Here are the pictures of Dave's NOS Six Barrel bracket.
The first picture of the top side shows nice sharp serrations stamped into the bracket not all rubbed over from a washer like mine.
But I'd rather have one that looks like that compared to the cheap reproductions that don't have the serrations!
The second picture shows the bottom side and it's as flat as a pancake with no serrations!
MJ
Hey Davtona, would you happen to have the top part of that diagram?
Thanks
So for now I have come to a decision on this issue!
I posted about the throttle bracket washer over on the Moparts A12 & Restoration forum.
My hope was that one of the detail oriented A12 guys would have something for me?
We'll it worked out as a member posted an article written by Frank Badelson.
In addition to the article the member also posted some of Franks pictures.
I am going to attach the article and pictures here.
So I have decided that since Frank was also the judge that gave me the deduction for this,
I am going to follow his example and not have any washer under the intake manifold bolt.
I will have to touch up the bracket in the area around the bolt where the incorrect washer was.
I would still like to see pictures of original Six Barrel Superbird throttle brackets.
Thanks for the footwork John, like I've been trying to convince guys for the past 4 years on FBBO, no washer! :2thumbs:
The article says "always". I will respectfully disagree.
This one is on a 1968 model year 440 HP assembled 11-22-1967.
(note the original date coded spark plug wires too, this car has just over 8,600 miles on it)
But no washer !! :icon_smile_big:
Yep, if the guy put them on in reverse order, he sure wasnt going to take them off and start over. lol
Quote from: Ghoste on March 02, 2020, 06:07:29 AM
Yep, if the guy put them on in reverse order, he sure wasnt going to take them off and start over. lol
[/quote
Also,it would make no sense to put a serated bracket under a flat piece of metal rather than the bolt head it was designed for ! :scratchchin:
Quote from: Alaskan_TA on February 29, 2020, 04:05:37 PM
The article says "always". I will respectfully disagree.
This one is on a 1968 model year 440 HP assembled 11-22-1967.
(note the original date coded spark plug wires too, this car has just over 8,600 miles on it)
Thanks for the pic Barry! As "
always" there are exceptions to the rule. What the factory engineers intended didn't always come to fruition on the assembly line. Too many humans involved along the way!
Thanks for all the replies and info on this topic!
I have just posted over on my Superbird topic about how I corrected this item.
MJ
Great info! Thanks!
Quote from: Alaskan_TA on February 29, 2020, 04:05:37 PM
The article says "always". I will respectfully disagree.
This one is on a 1968 model year 440 HP assembled 11-22-1967.
(note the original date coded spark plug wires too, this car has just over 8,600 miles on it)
Here I notice there is no paint on the able end and looks to be non-painted in the exact same position as if it were under the bracket and hence, no paint got on it. Maybe, for whatever reason, the original or previous owner took it off but did not install it back the same way...
Photo was after a de-greasing & a pressure washing. A fair amount of paint came off.
I tried to get it running over the weekend & it still has the date coded condenser.
I have not seen anything about this engine that indicates any modifications yet.
Great subject indeed!
Earthing issues has besieged us all over the years.
Mother Mopar knew that a bad grounding on the engine would cause problems.
So she tried to work out the 'best remedy'...
Serrated washes are a good idea, but are prone to breakage and a bad earth would result.
So they serrated the bracket as a 'failsafe' but where to put the cable?
ON top or BELOW?
Any sane person would say 'ON TOP' as it comes into contact with the carefuly created serrations made by Mother Mopar... :shruggy:
Putting it underneath, ie sandwiching makes NO sense. :slap:
The washer is also needed as the copper cable END (IMO), would 'tear-up' when the manifold is tightened.
CLEAR AS MUD... :2thumbs:
My surivor 68 R/T Charger had the same set-up as this with the cable up above.
Over the years it has become corrupted and fitted below which is just plain DAFT!!! :badidea:
If the cable end is under the return spring bracket it will not rotate as the bolt is tightened. Possibly why Chrysler speced it to be done that way.
We were not there, that bolt could have very easily been removed at some point. Possibly the intake manifold removed to repair a leak under warranty. We don't know, and to assume anything 50+ years later is just that, an idea, a guess.
No paint or rust on the cable end of that 68 440 is interesting.
Also a good example of why pressure washing a survivor engine is a bad idea, you loose original details.
Quote from: Alaskan_TA on March 16, 2020, 06:58:55 PM
Photo was after a de-greasing & a pressure washing. A fair amount of paint came off.
I tried to get it running over the weekend & it still has the date coded condenser.
I have not seen anything about this engine that indicates any modifications yet.
So what I see where the paint came off is rust or orange paint ? :scratchchin:
THAT'S WHY YOU USE A WASHER, under a bolt head... :slap:
Basic engineering practise... :pity: :shruggy: ::)
Quote from: A13 on March 18, 2020, 12:49:14 PM
If the cable end is under the return spring bracket it will not rotate as the bolt is tightened. Possibly why Chrysler speced it to be done that way.
We were not there, that bolt could have very easily been removed at some point. Possibly the intake manifold removed to repair a leak under warranty. We don't know, and to assume anything 50+ years later is just that, an idea, a guess.
No paint or rust on the cable end of that 68 440 is interesting.
Also a good example of why pressure washing a survivor engine is a bad idea, you loose original details.
[/quote
No paint or rust on the cable end of that 68 440 is interesting.
If you look close,where there is no paint is just about what portion of the cable end if it were originally under the bracket.,hence no paint. :Twocents:
Exactly and the cable end is even manufactured to fit UNDER the bracket with a tab to put it in the correct place/orientation.
Quote from: 62 Max on March 19, 2020, 12:54:11 PM
Quote from: A13 on March 18, 2020, 12:49:14 PM
If the cable end is under the return spring bracket it will not rotate as the bolt is tightened. Possibly why Chrysler speced it to be done that way.
We were not there, that bolt could have very easily been removed at some point. Possibly the intake manifold removed to repair a leak under warranty. We don't know, and to assume anything 50+ years later is just that, an idea, a guess.
No paint or rust on the cable end of that 68 440 is interesting.
Also a good example of why pressure washing a survivor engine is a bad idea, you loose original details.
[/quote
No paint or rust on the cable end of that 68 440 is interesting.
[/quote
If you look close,where there is no paint is just about what portion of the cable end if it were originally under the bracket.,hence no paint. :Twocents:
::)