DodgeCharger.com Forum

Have a 400 bb, 77 casting with 346 heads, was thinking to build this combo http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,35458.0.html
or stroke it to 512 and use 440 source heads(which im planning on using either way)

I will recommend the same to you as firefighter has done for me...  Contact Dwayne Porter from Porter Racing Heads his number is 802-951-1955.  He will absolutley lead you in the correct direction. and he also will custom grind you a cam for your exact build and is a great guy to deal with.   Good prices, also very competitive...I highly recommend him  :2thumbs:

If i was going to do a 400 based stroker....the 471 would be my choice for several reasons. Personally, I'm not a fan of the 512 in a lowdeck motor... it's more of a race type build. For a street/strip deal the 471 will last longer and make excellent power.

Dwyane is great to deal with for the heads and cam.  :2thumbs:

Inmo, the Edelbrock RPM heads are fine for this type of build.  :2thumbs:



Ron

I went with the 470 'cause the piston skirts are longer...longer engine life

Quote from: firefighter3931 on November 09, 2007, 11:23:30 PM
If i was going to do a 400 based stroker....the 471 would be my choice for several reasons. Personally, I'm not a fan of the 512 in a lowdeck motor... it's more of a race type build. For a street/strip deal the 471 will last longer and make excellent power.

Dwyane is great to deal with for the heads and cam.  :2thumbs:

Inmo, the Edelbrock RPM heads are fine for this type of build.  :2thumbs:



Ron

im planning on the 440source heads simply because they flow the same numbers and cost less.  that and if im buying most of my othe parts from them, itll save  on shipping cost too.  Im mainly wanting this motor to last a few years until I can save up for something better.  Considering that i wont be driving 10000 miles on it a year or anything like that, im thinking that the 512 maybe the best bang for the buck. will wait and gather more opinions first though.  Thanks for responding guys

well Ron after reading what you said, i done some calling and research, and you are correct, shouldnt have questioned it but yes a 471 seems to me to be sufice.  my goal is 500+ hp, and for around 550 ft lbs, what do you think i could get on pump gas from a 471??  the charger will see about 50/50 on street and strip, 727, 8.75 with roughly 3.23s or 3.55s tops, not use on tires.  This is going into a 74 charger btw.  Id like to hit low 11s with it.

Your power goal should be easily achievable.

Getting into the 11's, much less low 11's is a far loftier goal. That's really honkin' in a heavy-weight '74 Charger. You'll have the power, but you'll never get there on street tires and stock suspension.

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on November 10, 2007, 01:23:08 PM
well Ron after reading what you said, i done some calling and research, and you are correct, shouldnt have questioned it but yes a 471 seems to me to be sufice.  my goal is 500+ hp, and for around 550 ft lbs, what do you think i could get on pump gas from a 471??  the charger will see about 50/50 on street and strip, 727, 8.75 with roughly 3.23s or 3.55s tops, not use on tires.  This is going into a 74 charger btw.  Id like to hit low 11s with it.

I'm glad you did a little research.  :2thumbs: I was ll ready to type out a long response about side loading and short piston skirts and their effects on longevity in street based type builds....blah, blah, blah.... You saved me a bunch of typing....lol !  ;)


That power level is pretty easy to achieve with a 471....just takes good planning and proper parts selection.  :icon_smile_big: You will need to go with an aftermarket aluminum head and the usual headers/carb/intake manifold upgrades. Of course the cam and converter need to be matched to the engine and final drive ratio (rear end gear + tire diameter) to make it all work well together.  :yesnod:


The engine will make enough power for mid-low 11's....getting the power to the ground is another story. You will have to work on the chassis to make it hook well.  :Twocents:



Ron

im going to put subframe connectors and ss springs, some adjustable shocks, maybe some ladder bars if thatll help.  470 is a safer bet, i kinda got bit by the hp bug afterridding in a friends 440 (stroked to what, he wont tell) cuda that runs 9s in the quarter and is barely streetlegal, wont be soon. anyway, what parts for that power would you reccomend???

now that ive decided to go 472, thanks ron btw,  which kit should i get?

400 >> 470. (3.915" stroke/6.535" rod) Stroker Kits Available:

Bore Size:  Dish (-) or  Dome (+) CC's Compression Height: Distance Below Deck:  65CC 72CC 75CC 78CC 84CC 86CC 88CC Kit Part#:
4.350"
(.010 over) -17
(Dish) 1.480" -.007" 11.21 10.49 10.22 9.96 9.48 9.33 9.19 400.470.5060
4.375"
(.035 over) -17
(Dish) 1.480" -.007" 11.32 10.60 10.32 10.06 9.58 9.43 9.28 400.470.5070
4.350"
(.010 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.36 9.75 9.52 9.30 8.89 8.76 8.63 400.470.5074
4.360"
(.020 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.40 9.80 9.56 9.34 8.92 8.79 8.65 400.470.5075
4.375"
(.035 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.46 9.86 9.62 9.39 8.98 8.85 8.72 400.470.5076
4.350"
(.010 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 12.97 12.00 11.63 11.29 10.66 10.47 10.29 400.470.5071
4.360"
(.020 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 13.03 12.06 11.69 11.34 10.71 10.52 10.34 400.470.5072
4.375"
(.035 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 13.10 12.13 11.75 11.41 10.77 10.58 10.39 400.470.5073

Well, loks like you are really after this 512 I'm gonna build, lol. Maybe I need to step mine on up to that 700 horse power build? LOL. :2thumbs: :cheers:

no, just local idiot with a 88 mustang 5.0 that thinks his car is unbeatable, ive seen it run, dont know ets, but its fairly quick but i think a stock hemi car or even a mild cam in a 440 would stomp it.  They guy is running edelbrock heads, and 9.5:1 compression, performer intake and 600 cfm carb and a mild cam, but stock exhuast and trans,  :eek2:, its got a good suspenison and street drags, that helps it hook which is why he beats most ricers he goes up against. claims his car is unbeatable and runs 8s :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: never can pull out a timeslip though and im sick of him running his mouth on mopars. My bet is it might, might run low 13s,  maybe 12s, guy owns a performance shop which is know for extremely high prices and stupid mechanics that install the parts.  anyway being one of the very very very few mopar muscle owners in my area, its time to put his mustang on notice. once i get it in the car, im going to get a good suspension and tires on my so that it hooks and then we'll see.  My hope is to run lows 11s to high 10 second quarters in a 3700 lb charger.   :2thumbs:

I hear that. As part of your rear suspension, I'm assuming you're running the 8 3/4 like most of us. Look into this:
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/newpr834adpi.html I plan on replacing the facty set up with one of these, so.... This will really help, or at least should really help....
Also: http://www.magnumforce.com/store/detail.asp?ProductID=3108&CategoryID=19&BrandID=&Category=&SubCategory=&Search=&Page= For what ever reason they don't list these for '72, figures..... :slap: :icon_smile_cool:

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on November 10, 2007, 05:22:51 PM
now that ive decided to go 472, thanks ron btw,  which kit should i get?

400 >> 470. (3.915" stroke/6.535" rod) Stroker Kits Available:

Bore Size:  Dish (-) or  Dome (+) CC's Compression Height: Distance Below Deck:  65CC 72CC 75CC 78CC 84CC 86CC 88CC Kit Part#:
4.350"
(.010 over) -17
(Dish) 1.480" -.007" 11.21 10.49 10.22 9.96 9.48 9.33 9.19 400.470.5060
4.375"
(.035 over) -17
(Dish) 1.480" -.007" 11.32 10.60 10.32 10.06 9.58 9.43 9.28 400.470.5070
4.350"
(.010 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.36 9.75 9.52 9.30 8.89 8.76 8.63 400.470.5074
4.360"
(.020 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.40 9.80 9.56 9.34 8.92 8.79 8.65 400.470.5075
4.375"
(.035 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.46 9.86 9.62 9.39 8.98 8.85 8.72 400.470.5076
4.350"
(.010 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 12.97 12.00 11.63 11.29 10.66 10.47 10.29 400.470.5071
4.360"
(.020 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 13.03 12.06 11.69 11.34 10.71 10.52 10.34 400.470.5072
4.375"
(.035 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 13.10 12.13 11.75 11.41 10.77 10.58 10.39 400.470.5073

Dukeboy, ideally you will want a flattop piston build with as close to zero deck as possible (tight quench = pump gas  :icon_smile_big:) and a static compression ratio in the 10.5-10.7 range. You will have to take the block to the machineshop and have the bores measured to see what you've got....then pick the correct kit with the corresponding bore diameter.  ;)

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on November 10, 2007, 06:17:51 PM
My hope is to run lows 11s to high 10 second quarters in a 3700 lb charger. :2thumbs:

To make that happen you will have to step things up ; 4.10 gears + 3500 stall.....and of course the right cam to make it all work well together.  ;)



Ron

what would it run with 3.55s, i still want this thing to be streetable and not run 5k at 70 on the highway

dukeboy_318, i'm not ignoring the post but just sitting back and learning a thing or two myself. :scratchchin:

the 4.10 gear and 3500 stall convertor with 15" tires should put you in the 3200-3500 rpm range at 55 mph which is livable.

the question you have to make up your mind is, do you want a hot street car with little highway use or a street car that will run great on the highway.

it's very hard to have a 50/50 car and as a older racer once told me, the price it takes to build such a car it's cheaper to build 2 cars, one for the street and one for the strip.

Good advice from Max...as usual.  :2thumbs: As far as hwy rpm's are concerned....a 3.91 gear with a 28in tall tire is very livable. It's just a bit steeper than a 3.55 with a stock height tire.  ;) Like Max said....you need to make some compromises if it's a dual purpose car....or buy yourself a gear vendors overdrive....then you can have your cake and eat it too.  :icon_smile_big:


Ron

it wont see the highway very much, just if something happens to my daily driver, so ill probably go 4.10s in the rear with maybe a suregrip to help with traction, already found the subframe connectors, springs and traction bars.  Just have to find the right shocks for it now too.  once i get the specs back from the machine shop, im going to call lunati and have them reccomend a cam to go with the stroker package.  Max, did finally make up my mind, car will be a stock looking strip car, meaning itll see the majority of its life on the strip with the occasional streep cruise during nice weather.  thanks for the advice.

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on November 13, 2007, 09:29:58 AM
it wont see the highway very much, just if something happens to my daily driver, so ill probably go 4.10s in the rear with maybe a suregrip to help with traction.

to be honest there wouldn't be much use of building a stoker or anyother performance engine in mind with out a good suregrip to transfer the power. :2thumbs:

for what your going to do the 4.10's should work great, i wouldn't go any higher then a 3.91 with what you have in mind.

Quote from: firefighter3931 on November 12, 2007, 10:16:28 PM
....or buy yourself a gear vendors overdrive....then you can have your cake and eat it too.  :icon_smile_big:


Ron

with all the buzz about those overdrive units, that would be the ticket. :scratchchin:

i just love spending other peoples money. :lol:

Quote from: max on November 13, 2007, 03:04:04 PM

i just love spending other peoples money. :lol:

Quote

:scratchchin: Yeah, that does seem easy to do :smilielol:

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on November 13, 2007, 09:29:58 AM
it wont see the highway very much, just if something happens to my daily driver, so ill probably go 4.10s in the rear with maybe a suregrip to help with traction, already found the subframe connectors, springs and traction bars.  Just have to find the right shocks for it now too.  once i get the specs back from the machine shop, im going to call lunati and have them reccomend a cam to go with the stroker package.  Max, did finally make up my mind, car will be a stock looking strip car, meaning itll see the majority of its life on the strip with the occasional streep cruise during nice weather.  thanks for the advice.

The 4.10's with a 28in tire are manageable on the hwy cruising at 60 mph....i've done it before. You will want to run a good drag radial like the MT ET street radials which are DOT legal and hook like a slick at the track. A 275/60/15 on a 15x8 rim will fit in there fine....that's a common wheel/tire combo for most 3rd gen Chargers. The SS springs don't need any help (traction bars) but i would use a descent 3 way adjustable drag shock. Comp Engineering sells a shock that works well on this type of application. When you install the new springs use a good poly bushing...front/back.  ;)


Ron

well, i thought id post a couple pics of the car and motor itself so that everyone knows whats its going into.
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x98/dukeboy_318/dssideview.jpg)
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x98/dukeboy_318/IMG_0832.jpg)

some more
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x98/dukeboy_318/IMG_0839-400.jpg)
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x98/dukeboy_318/IMG_0838-400.jpg)
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x98/dukeboy_318/IMG_0837-400.jpg)

i finished taking apart the bottom end and noticed that the rod caps had numbers stamped on them but cylinders 1-4 were not matched up to the numbers on the caps, for example, cylinder 1 had a 3 on its main cap, cylinder 2 had 4, 3 had a 2 and 4 had a 1,  5-8 were matching,  any ideas, could this have caused any problems :shruggy:  waiting on my micrometer to arrive so i can check the bore, but according to the numbers stamped on the inside of the pistons, they are factory pistons, so it appears that the cylinders were honed and new bearings put in cause the beearings look very very new, local shot says they appear to have less than 5k on them.

also did comfirm that this does have 346 casting heads not 452s as it should have had :shruggy:

Looks like a great project. Keep it black.  I'm hoping to get a 472 kit for my 400 too.

I wouldn't worry too much about the cap placement....the mains will need to be studded and align bored when the new stroker crank is installed. Have the caps magnafluxed and if there are no cracks just reuse them. 440 Source also sells ductile steel 400 main caps if you feel the need to replace them.


Ron

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on November 16, 2007, 02:59:31 PM
i finished taking apart the bottom end and noticed that the rod caps had numbers stamped on them but cylinders 1-4 were not matched up to the numbers on the caps, for example, cylinder 1 had a 3 on its main cap, cylinder 2 had 4, 3 had a 2 and 4 had a 1,  5-8 were matching,  any ideas, could this have caused any problems :shruggy:  waiting on my micrometer to arrive so i can check the bore, but according to the numbers stamped on the inside of the pistons, they are factory pistons, so it appears that the cylinders were honed and new bearings put in cause the beearings look very very new, local shot says they appear to have less than 5k on them.

if i read this right you are saying the pistons and rods were in the wrong bores, for example #1 rod and piston according to the stampings on the rod cap were in the #3 cylinder and the #3 rod and piston was in the #1 cylinder.

this isn't a problem as long as the odd #'s 1,3,5,7 are on the drivers side and 2,4,6,8 are on the passenger side. they are marked so that the oil holes in the caps spray oil onto the opposite side cylinders to keep the pistons from freezing up in the bores and for the off set wrist pins to be in correct alinement.

coarse this is old technology on the oil sprayers and i have been told and do run the hemi i built with out any squirters in the rods since they were reconditioned and the grooves in the rods were cut out. there's enough windage (moving oil) in the bottom of the engine to keep oil on the bottoms of the cylinders.

now if i misunderstood what you wrote and the caps don't match the rods then that is a problem that needs to be fixed, but if you are going to put a stroker kit in the engine then there's no need to worry about the old rods.

yep im just waiting to see what the machine shop says when i get the block back from magnafluxing.

double checked and it seems that the #1 and #3 rods were switched. :brickwall:

no,    don't do it,   it makes you blind    :angel:

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on November 22, 2007, 10:49:05 AM
double checked and it seems that the #1 and #3 rods were switched. :brickwall:

That's nothing to be too concerned about really....both rod/pistons were on the same bank. Sometimes builders will swap pistons into different bores for a better fit and a desired piston to wall clearance. It's not that uncommon when dealing with cast pistons on a re-honed stock (bore) block.

This motor is getting a new stroker kit anyway....isn't it ?


Ron

true just kinda struck me wierd though

wanted to update everone, got the motor back from the shop after hottanking and magnafluxing and found otu it is the factory bore, 4.034 and is crack free,  472 here we come :yesnod: :D

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 07, 2007, 11:53:25 PM
wanted to update everone, got the motor back from the shop after hottanking and magnafluxing and found otu it is the factory bore, 4.034 and is crack free,  472 here we come :yesnod: :D

excellent news !  :2thumbs:

Congrats. Areyou going through 440 Source for the kit? If so, know what kind of compression you're planning on running?

yeah ill be going through 440source for the kit and when the heads come out ill eventually get a set, im looking to run between 10.5-12 some where in that range to keep it capable of running on pump gas,(93octane) I just need some help deciding what the best head gasket would be, Id like to run a copper one but im worried about leaks, any suggestions :shruggy:

The most suggested is Cometic. Here's there link: http://www.cometic.com/domesticauto.aspx. I plan on running one of there head gasket sets, it's an MLS (or so it appears) which I think is supposed to be the best gasket for mounting aluminum heads on an iron block. On a 4.380" bore, this is there listed gasket: http://www.cometic.com/da_viewimage.aspx?da=313 which is hopefully the one I'm gonna run, if I remember right, that's a .030 over bore gasket. There are others too, check there site out. :2thumbs:

cool, ill check them out, thanks hottrodder, im trying to get my notes together and place my stroker kit order here after xmas. then heads later in the spring.  also gonna start on the body work on my vaction here next week, try to at least get the interior stripped out and the car in primer, get the rear quarters cut out and order replacement ones , then im gonna focus on getting the 8.75 under car as well.   :hack: :punkrocka:

I've read some where thtat they may offer the heads with a stoker kit in a package for a money savings offer.... I'm wondering what will come of this... :scratchchin: As for interior, I pulled all of mine out, along with the dash and A/C-heater box stuff.... Found some extra work that I was hoping I wouldn't have to do, oh well, that's how things go, got some floor work to do now too.... :rotz:. Good luck with everything you have ahead of you, keep us posted.

hotrodder this is what i hope she looks like when done, (http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x98/dukeboy_318/chargertobe2.jpg)

If you plan on using MLS (cometic) style gaskets make sure to follow their deck & Head machining recommendations. The surface are has to be properly prepped or you will experience gasket leakage/failure.  :yesnod:

The Felpro permtorque gaskets work fine for any street/strip type build that runs reasonable compression levels....and there is no special surface finish requirements.  ;)



Ron

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 09, 2007, 08:32:14 PM
hotrodder this is what i hope she looks like when done, (http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x98/dukeboy_318/chargertobe2.jpg)

Looking very nice. Who did the picture up?

Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 09, 2007, 09:51:13 PM
If you plan on using MLS (cometic) style gaskets make sure to follow their deck & Head machining recommendations. The surface are has to be properly prepped or you will experience gasket leakage/failure.  :yesnod:

The Felpro permtorque gaskets work fine for any street/strip type build that runs reasonable compression levels....and there is no special surface finish requirements.  ;)



Ron

Hmmm.... Didn't know that there were any special requirements for there head gasket, was never told about it. I guess I was supposed to find that out later :shruggy:.

ds440 did up the picture, its in sublime, ive actually decide to change the color to sassy grass green. like it better :D

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 10, 2007, 08:27:37 PM
ds440 did up the picture, its in sublime, ive actually decide to change the color to sassy grass green. like it better :D

I'm wondering if one can be done up of mine, but it's a '72 SE with hideaways, and will be triple black, but the black exterior will have Ice Pearls in it from House Of Kolor. Also will tint the windows, I think it would look nice, and yes it will have chrome wheels....

you could try pm-ing ds440 and seeing if he can do one up for you. thats what i did,  :cheers:  heres one he did of mine in triple black

I'll look him up and see what he says. Thanks for the info, and nice looking Charger. :2thumbs:

took it to shop yesterday to have it bored, hopefully to .030 over, also any reccomendations for converter and flexplate in terms of manufacturer also im looking at the MSD 6AL ignition box with the rev limiter set at 7000, any thoughts on this box, good/bad??

I would talk to the machine shop when sellecting the copper gasket; you will need to know if you have zero deck on your pistons and what cc on the heads.  Copper gaskets require orings for high compression setups; costs for oringing the block is around $50 and you will be able to use your copper gaskets (after a thorough cleaning) up to three times.  I used a .093 copper gasket on my build to get 10.5+ compression.  Thickness of the intake gasket will be affected by the thickness of the head gasket; alignment of the intalke bolts changes with thicker head gaskets. 

My engine build went beyond my project budget; engine work was around $2000 and parts was around $5500.  Compression will affect all of the decisions on what is required (necessary) for making the engine reliable (longevity). 

Sounds like you will have a great setup for defeating that lowly mustang.

Robert

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 13, 2007, 06:34:47 AM
took it to shop yesterday to have it bored, hopefully to .030 over, also any reccomendations for converter and flexplate in terms of manufacturer also im looking at the MSD 6AL ignition box with the rev limiter set at 7000, any thoughts on this box, good/bad??

Hmmm.... Since you will be going to a smaller than factory converter, at the biggest I would say an 11" conveter, so either way, yep you'll be changing the flexplate.... As for who though, dun know, maybe B&M? I'm thinking of probably getting a full round plate (stronger) with dual bolt pattern, if I can find it again.... ::). MSD 6AL is a great box, look into the Summit Racing stuff, they have some of there brand products out now, and some of it looks interesting, how ever, some of there stuff is about the same as some of the other products listed..... Something like these boxes:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD%2D6420&N=700+4294925143+4294839065+4294925127+115&autoview=sku

And http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D850600&N=700+4294925143+4294839065+4294925127+115&autoview=sku

and http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?CP=1&part=MAA-6853M&N=700%200&Ntt=MSD~6420%20or%20SUM~850600%20or%20MAA~6853M%20or%20PNX~500%20or%20CRN~6000~6440&Ntk=&rsview=sku&Ns=

and http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?CP=1&part=CRN-6000-6440&N=700%200&Ntt=MSD~6420%20or%20SUM~850600%20or%20MAA~6853M%20or%20PNX~500%20or%20CRN~6000~6440&Ntk=&rsview=sku&Ns=

and http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?CP=1&part=PNX-500&N=700%200&Ntt=MSD~6420%20or%20SUM~850600%20or%20MAA~6853M%20or%20PNX~500%20or%20CRN~6000~6440&Ntk=&rsview=sku&Ns=

Now, try and compare all three of them together, and see how they all compare. They did this in one of there catalog issues, and I found it a bit interesting.... :scratchchin:

I don't know if this link will work or not, but try it, if so, then there's the comparison already lined up for ya. http://store.summitracing.com/compare.asp?N=700+4294925143+4294839065+4294925127+115&Nao=30

that is interesting hotrodder, hmmm :scratchchin: when you find that flexplate, let me know, just out of curiousity(wont matter with the stroker kit being ballanced) is a 77 400 externall or interal balanced?

I couldn't say for sure, but as a guess, and only a guess, being a later year production like this, it will probably have a cast crank factory, and if so, probably externaly balanced, but that's just a guess..... As for your motor, as you've said it want matter with the Stroker kit, it will have a forged crank, and therefor should be internaly balanced... But maybe you can get an external balance set up for it though :shruggy:. As for the flex plate, I'll keep an eye out for it.

Here's a point of a start..... If you don't Summit Racing, these are carried by other folks. http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+4294925134+4294839071+4294863762+4294908395+115+4294905607 This is based on a 727 TF. You can choose internal or external balance from there. And also the bolt pattern, as I've said, I've not come across the dual bolt pattern in a little while, so I'm wondering if it's still made for Mopar? :shruggy: :cheers:

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 13, 2007, 06:34:47 AM
took it to shop yesterday to have it bored, hopefully to .030 over, also any reccomendations for converter and flexplate in terms of manufacturer also im looking at the MSD 6AL ignition box with the rev limiter set at 7000, any thoughts on this box, good/bad??

Chris,

440 source carries a nice "solid style" flexlate which looks just like the B&M SFI unit : 

http://440source.com/flexplates.htm

Converter needs to be matched to the cam profile....once the cam choice is finalized then you can pick a converter.  :yesnod:

MSD 6AL is all you will ever need.  :2thumbs:




Ron

this is the cam im looking at using
Voodoo Cam; duration in/ex 268/276, duration @ .050- 226/234, gross lift- .494/.513; pn number 60303- 132.39
rear gears will either be a 3.91 or 4.10s, havent decided yet on tires size, any one know how big i can go without tire rub and with out relocation the springs, rim size is 15x8 american racing alumunum draglites(discontinued)
Im thinking a 3500 to 4500 stall converter with anti balloning plate, just dont know who to get it from.

carb and intake
Wieland Action plus intake pn: 8008- $175.95
holley 4160 750 cfm, $265.95

looking at getting some hedders too, cheap ones at first while i break the motor in, then ill save for tti's

For my converter, I'm going to go through PTC, here's there site: http://www.ptcrace.com/. As for rear tires, based on PaulG's thread about his thrid gen, pretty much the biggest rear tire you can run is a P295/50.... As for the backspace, I'd have to look that up and see what is recommended, but I think it was 5" b/s. Hope this helps some. :cheers:

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 13, 2007, 08:08:55 PM
this is the cam im looking at using
Voodoo Cam; duration in/ex 268/276, duration @ .050- 226/234, gross lift- .494/.513; pn number 60303- 132.39
rear gears will either be a 3.91 or 4.10s, havent decided yet on tires size, any one know how big i can go without tire rub and with out relocation the springs, rim size is 15x8 american racing alumunum draglites(discontinued)
Im thinking a 3500 to 4500 stall converter with anti balloning plate, just dont know who to get it from.

carb and intake
Wieland Action plus intake pn: 8008- $175.95
holley 4160 750 cfm, $265.95

looking at getting some hedders too, cheap ones at first while i break the motor in, then ill save for tti's

The cam is a little small for a 470ci build....unless you want to build a cruiser type motor. Something in the 240--245@.050 duration range would be better.  :yesnod:

http://holley.com/60305LK.asp

The PTC 9.5in converter with a set of 4.10's would work great !

For the intake i would be looking at a low rise single plane and a double pumper carburator for up top.  ;)



Ron

Fel-Pro 1009's are fine.
Cometics, very fine surface finish or CBN finish on the Aluminium side for sure.

Why any talk of copper ?

Just my opinion, but NOT for the street. We do it for Blown track stuff, with o-ring and reciever grooves opposite, but P.I.T.A. for street, and usually leaky sooner than later.

Quote from: Hot_Rodder on December 14, 2007, 08:35:34 AM
For my converter, I'm going to go through PTC, here's there site: http://www.ptcrace.com/. As for rear tires, based on PaulG's thread about his thrid gen, pretty much the biggest rear tire you can run is a P295/50.... As for the backspace, I'd have to look that up and see what is recommended, but I think it was 5" b/s. Hope this helps some. :cheers:

already got the rims, so thats good to go, im thinkinr 285/45s course i might be getting a relocation kit for free from a friend, so we'll see

Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 14, 2007, 08:50:27 AM

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 13, 2007, 08:08:55 PM
this is the cam im looking at using
Voodoo Cam; duration in/ex 268/276, duration @ .050- 226/234, gross lift- .494/.513; pn number 60303- 132.39
rear gears will either be a 3.91 or 4.10s, havent decided yet on tires size, any one know how big i can go without tire rub and with out relocation the springs, rim size is 15x8 american racing alumunum draglites(discontinued)
Im thinking a 3500 to 4500 stall converter with anti balloning plate, just dont know who to get it from.

carb and intake
Wieland Action plus intake pn: 8008- $175.95
holley 4160 750 cfm, $265.95

looking at getting some hedders too, cheap ones at first while i break the motor in, then ill save for tti's

The cam is a little small for a 470ci build....unless you want to build a cruiser type motor. Something in the 240--245@.050 duration range would be better.  :yesnod:

http://holley.com/60305LK.asp

The PTC 9.5in converter with a set of 4.10's would work great !

For the intake i would be looking at a low rise single plane and a double pumper carburator for up top.  ;)



Ron

Ron, will this cam still give me enough vaccum to run my brakes and stuff???

Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 14, 2007, 08:50:27 AM

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 13, 2007, 08:08:55 PM
this is the cam im looking at using
Voodoo Cam; duration in/ex 268/276, duration @ .050- 226/234, gross lift- .494/.513; pn number 60303- 132.39
rear gears will either be a 3.91 or 4.10s, havent decided yet on tires size, any one know how big i can go without tire rub and with out relocation the springs, rim size is 15x8 american racing alumunum draglites(discontinued)
Im thinking a 3500 to 4500 stall converter with anti balloning plate, just dont know who to get it from.

carb and intake
Wieland Action plus intake pn: 8008- $175.95
holley 4160 750 cfm, $265.95

looking at getting some hedders too, cheap ones at first while i break the motor in, then ill save for tti's

The cam is a little small for a 470ci build....unless you want to build a cruiser type motor. Something in the 240--245@.050 duration range would be better.  :yesnod:

http://holley.com/60305LK.asp

The PTC 9.5in converter with a set of 4.10's would work great !

For the intake i would be looking at a low rise single plane and a double pumper carburator for up top.  ;)



Ron

Ron, how would that set up work with a single plane Weiand 7511 intake?

if i'm not mistaken the 7511 was the ground work for the Team G Weiand intake.


dukeboy_318, if your getting a relocation kit from a friend then you might not need to cut those perches off of that rear end housing. :scratchchin:

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 14, 2007, 03:30:54 PM

Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 14, 2007, 08:50:27 AM

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 13, 2007, 08:08:55 PM
this is the cam im looking at using
Voodoo Cam; duration in/ex 268/276, duration @ .050- 226/234, gross lift- .494/.513; pn number 60303- 132.39
rear gears will either be a 3.91 or 4.10s, havent decided yet on tires size, any one know how big i can go without tire rub and with out relocation the springs, rim size is 15x8 american racing alumunum draglites(discontinued)
Im thinking a 3500 to 4500 stall converter with anti balloning plate, just dont know who to get it from.

carb and intake
Wieland Action plus intake pn: 8008- $175.95
holley 4160 750 cfm, $265.95

looking at getting some hedders too, cheap ones at first while i break the motor in, then ill save for tti's

The cam is a little small for a 470ci build....unless you want to build a cruiser type motor. Something in the 240--245@.050 duration range would be better.  :yesnod:

http://holley.com/60305LK.asp

The PTC 9.5in converter with a set of 4.10's would work great !

For the intake i would be looking at a low rise single plane and a double pumper carburator for up top.  ;)



Ron

Ron, will this cam still give me enough vaccum to run my brakes and stuff???

Yep, no problemo....it will idle pretty smooth in a 470 ci build and make lots of vacuum.  :2thumbs:


Ron

Quote from: max on December 14, 2007, 03:34:51 PM

Ron, how would that set up work with a single plane Weiand 7511 intake?

if i'm not mistaken the 7511 was the ground work for the Team G Weiand intake.


dukeboy_318, if your getting a relocation kit from a friend then you might not need to cut those perches off of that rear end housing. :scratchchin:

Max, i'm not a fan of the lowdeck Wiend single planes. The inside runners (3-5-4-6) are really pinched off to clear the intake bolts. Have a look at the 383 team g and you will see what i'm talking about.


I was thinking more along the lines of a street dominator or torker. The Performer RPM dual plane wouldn't be a bad choice either but that creates throttle and kickdown linkage issues...aftermarket brackets/cables required.



Ron


Pic # 1. Check out the "pinch" on those Team G inside runners....that can't be good for flow and fuel distrubution !  :eek2:

Pic # 2. Check out the Torker and you see a big difference....much better design, inmo  :yesnod:

dukeboy_318, if your getting a relocation kit from a friend then you might not need to cut those perches off of that rear end housing. :scratchchin:


yep thats what im thinking, if he can find it

Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 14, 2007, 03:53:41 PM

Quote from: max on December 14, 2007, 03:34:51 PM

Ron, how would that set up work with a single plane Weiand 7511 intake?

if i'm not mistaken the 7511 was the ground work for the Team G Weiand intake.


dukeboy_318, if your getting a relocation kit from a friend then you might not need to cut those perches off of that rear end housing. :scratchchin:

Max, i'm not a fan of the lowdeck Wiend single planes. The inside runners (3-5-4-6) are really pinched off to clear the intake bolts. Have a look at the 383 team g and you will see what i'm talking about.


I was thinking more along the lines of a street dominator or torker. The Performer RPM dual plane wouldn't be a bad choice either but that creates throttle and kickdown linkage issues...aftermarket brackets/cables required.



Ron


Ps. Check out the "pinch" on those inside runners....that can't be good for flow and fuel distrubution !  :eek2:

Im kinda watchin a torker intake on ebay right now, might try to pick it up, also ron with that cam, ill have to upgrade my valvesprings wont i?? Im planing on geting a set of 44osource heads later next fall, but until then ill be running stock heads that are ported and polished. 

Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 14, 2007, 03:53:41 PM

Quote from: max on December 14, 2007, 03:34:51 PM

Ron, how would that set up work with a single plane Weiand 7511 intake?

if i'm not mistaken the 7511 was the ground work for the Team G Weiand intake.


dukeboy_318, if your getting a relocation kit from a friend then you might not need to cut those perches off of that rear end housing. :scratchchin:

Max, i'm not a fan of the lowdeck Wiend single planes. The inside runners (3-5-4-6) are really pinched off to clear the intake bolts. Have a look at the 383 team g and you will see what i'm talking about.


I was thinking more along the lines of a street dominator or torker. The Performer RPM dual plane wouldn't be a bad choice either but that creates throttle and kickdown linkage issues...aftermarket brackets/cables required.



Ron


Pic # 1. Check out the "pinch" on those Team G inside runners....that can't be good for flow and fuel distrubution !  :eek2:

Pic # 2. Check out the Torker and you see a big difference....much better design, inmo  :yesnod:

yeah, i have one of those Weiand 7511 intakes and yes it does have those pinched areas and is a real pain in the butt to even bolt on. i just wondered if those intakes were actually any good or not on a well built engine.
if i remember correctly i thought at one time the Team G was one of the best intakes on the market, but this was several years back.

dukeboy_318, that would be the hot ticket if those spring perches were already in the right position for a spring relocation kit. 

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 14, 2007, 04:03:19 PM
Im kinda watchin a torker intake on ebay right now, might try to pick it up, also ron with that cam, ill have to upgrade my valvesprings wont i?? Im planing on geting a set of 44osource heads later next fall, but until then ill be running stock heads that are ported and polished. 

yes, the valve springs would need to be upgraded on those stock type heads. but to be honest i wouldn't throw alot of money at those stock heads in the form of port and polish plus more then likely the guides will need to be cut to fit the valve springs and valve seals.

when it's all said and done you will have just as much $$$ in those stock heads then what a set of good aluminum heads would cost.

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 14, 2007, 04:03:19 PM
Im kinda watchin a torker intake on ebay right now, might try to pick it up, also ron with that cam, ill have to upgrade my valvesprings wont i?? Im planing on geting a set of 44osource heads later next fall, but until then ill be running stock heads that are ported and polished. 

FireFighter recommended the 60305LK cam. If I'm not mistaken, this is the cam that I'm gonna be running on my 500+ cid motor. I too will be running the 440 Source heads. If you check out Summit's website, under suggested parts, it lists the recommended springs, retainers, ect for that cam.... http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN%2D60305LK&autoview=sku

locks: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN-77012
retainers: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN-75702LUN
springs: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN-73815

Those are the three recommended parts for the above cam. Hope this helps some. The above locks/retainers want work for me because I'm gonna use an aftermarket valve that want have the multiple groove lock, I will be going with the single groove lock, and I am wanting to go with a 10* lock versus the 7* design lock/retainer setup. Also don't forget, this is a 3 bolt design cam, and not a one bolt, so when ordering the timing chain set, be sure to get a 3 bolt design, and you will also need timing chain bolts... :cheers:

You have not asked about carb choice yet, but I think that you may ask about it. If so, I'll recommend the same one, as far as brand, to you that was to me, and that's the ProForm carb. Here's a good start on some to check out, unless you already have a crab that you're gonna run.... http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+4294925239+4294839063+400405+115+4294919007. As I've stated before, these links are for reference, you can go somewhere else to get these or other items, I plan on going to other places since Summit has opened a store here in GA, and that means that now I'm gonna get caught up in the GA sales tax, and I don't know anyone close by just outside of GA to avoid the sales tax.... Anyway, good luck.

Im thinking about a holley 4160 750 cfm dual inlet, ive worked with holleys for a while and i know them pretty well and while there not the best, id rrather stick with the trid and trusted then try something new at this time

which intake do you reccomend that will work with the factory throttle and kickdown linkages??  :cheers:

Being that you are running a low deck block don't know what to tell you... If it were RB block I'd say the Street Dominator, unless it's offered for the B block, and have never seen it.... :scratchchin:

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 17, 2007, 08:02:57 PM
which intake do you reccomend that will work with the factory throttle and kickdown linkages??  :cheers:

Chris, sorry i missed this here and i responded to your pm...but i'll post it again ;

The Street Dominator and Torker will work fine with the stock throttle/kickdown linkage.  :2thumbs:


Ron

no problem, im just trying to find a street dominator, found torkers on ebay but they seem to be running pretty high, are these no longer made??? :shruggy:

The street dominator is no longer made....keep looking on e-bay. Not sure about the torker....it might still be available ? I would hold out for the street dominator if at all possible  ;)



Ron

Gotta LUV them street Dom's, they were a sweet Intake all-round !

I put an ad in the site swapmeet here for a eddlebrock CH4B dual plane intake, took a little while, but then I got two different responses from people selling them,

hey ron, i know you seem to swear by the proform carbs, how easy or they to tune and run compared to a holley, power vs cost benefits, in other words is it worth the stack of bills to get? :shruggy:

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 21, 2007, 12:11:06 PM
hey ron, i know you seem to swear by the proform carbs, how easy or they to tune and run compared to a holley, power vs cost benefits, in other words is it worth the stack of bills to get? :shruggy:

Chris, the Proform carbs are basicly the same as a Holley "Ultra HP" model but for several hundred dollars cheaper. They tune exactly like a Holley carb and in most cases the fuel curve is dead on. Depending on the combo it might need a jet swap but that's it. All of the high dollar features of an HP series carb w/o the high dollar price tag. They are most definately worth it...and more !   :icon_smile_big:

On a stroker build this is a no brainer  :2thumbs:



Ron

what size, i was thinking 850, think thats enough

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on December 22, 2007, 07:50:41 PM
what size, i was thinking 850, think thats enough

With a low rise single plane like the Street Dominator the 850 Proform would be perfect on a 470, inmo.  ;)


Ron

okay, now that the rest of the combo internally is set, just need to come up with the fuel pump and timing set, thinking a carter 120 ph 8 psi mechanical pump, 3/8 lines. not sure on timing chain and gears, but i know i want the double chain, possibly from crane or comp any opinions

Firefighter, how does the TM-7 compare to the teamG and the torker. Im just kinda curiose cause thats what on my current 440.

Quote from: mally69 on January 04, 2008, 04:39:22 PM
Firefighter, how does the TM-7 compare to the teamG and the torker. Im just kinda curiose cause thats what on my current 440.

The TM7 is an excellent manifold....on par with the Street Dominator. On my engine it was allmost identical in terms of hp and torque.  :2thumbs: It's more of a hot street/strip manifold....3500 stall/4.10 gears

The Torker also makes really good power but it starts to fall off at 5500-5600 rpm so it's not the best choice for a strip build but it makes really strong power down low. The runners are tall and narrow but the volume is "smallish" making it responsive at lower engine speeds....2500 stall/3.23-3.55 gears

The Team G doesn't work well with any combo....i would rather visit the dentist than use it.  :lol:



Ron

Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 04, 2008, 07:31:03 PM

Quote from: mally69 on January 04, 2008, 04:39:22 PM
Firefighter, how does the TM-7 compare to the teamG and the torker. Im just kinda curiose cause thats what on my current 440.

The TM7 is an excellent manifold....on par with the Street Dominator. On my engine it was allmost identical in terms of hp and torque.  :2thumbs: It's more of a hot street/strip manifold....3500 stall/4.10 gears

The Torker also makes really good power but it starts to fall off at 5500-5600 rpm so it's not the best choice for a strip build but it makes really strong power down low. The runners are tall and narrow but the volume is "smallish" making it responsive at lower engine speeds....2500 stall/3.23-3.55 gears

The Team G doesn't work well with any combo....i would rather visit the dentist than use it.  :lol:



Ron

wow you really dont like that team g manifold  :smilielol:

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on January 04, 2008, 03:58:32 PM
okay, now that the rest of the combo internally is set, just need to come up with the fuel pump and timing set, thinking a carter 120 ph 8 psi mechanical pump, 3/8 lines. not sure on timing chain and gears, but i know i want the double chain, possibly from crane or comp any opinions

Chris, the Comp Cams chain/gears works great....use it and don't worry.  :2thumbs:

I've had good luck with the carter high volume street pumps rated at 6psi/120 gph. There have been some reported failures as of late with Carter products so be aware that there could be a potential issue. Not sure what is going on or if a bad batch made it out the door ?  :shruggy:



Ron

YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got my intake in finally today, holley street dominator for 100 bucks shipped  ;D :D cant wait to get the rest of my parts i need.  ron, will a high volume oil pump suffice in this stroker seeing how it will be driven on the street as much if not more than on the strip???
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x98/dukeboy_318/DSC00066.jpg)
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x98/dukeboy_318/DSC00067.jpg)

Chris, Nice score on the SD intake !  :2thumbs:

On mostly street motors i prefer to use a HV pump with a hardened oil pump drive. I like the bearing clearances at .0025 on both the mains and rods to allow for thermal expansion. Street builds run longer and build more heat than a track-only motor...maintaining good oil pressure at low engine speeds is priority #1 inmo.  ;)



Ron

 :2thumbs:

okay, im trying to get this all in one place, so is the map of my engine build up minus push rods and bigger valves for the 346 heads, trying to decide on those yet

77 400 bored out .030
440source.com 470 stroker kit, internally balanced, flat top pistons for a CR of 11:1
holley street dominator intake with an 850 carb, possibly proform or holley
Comp cams timing chain CCA 2104
Flowtech headers - 1.75 inch primaries to 2.5 in collector- 78070
carter 120 gph mech. fuel pump
LUN-60305LK cam, .533/.552 valve lift, 242/252 duration with lifters or would this cam be better for my car being that it'll see the street more than the strip( http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN%2D60304LK&autoview=sku )
LUN-77012 valve locks
LUN-75702LUN valve retainers
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN-73815 valve springs
3500 RPM stall converter
4.10s rear gears
will be running the stock head for now while i save up the extra cash for the 440source heads, but i will be putting in new valves and maybe porting them myself
any suggestions or changes are welcome

Ron, just wonderin, do i need to make sure i get pistons in this kit that feature valve reliefs, or will i be okay with regualr pistons.

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on January 21, 2008, 07:46:11 AM
Ron, just wonderin, do i need to make sure i get pistons in this kit that feature valve reliefs, or will i be okay with regualr pistons.

Chris, all the 440 source 470 stroker kits have some valve relief area in the pistons for increased valve lift.  :2thumbs:

The slugs you want for yours will have a 4cc valve relief which will yield ~ 10.5:1 compression ratio which is perfect for a pump gas street build with closed chamber aluminum heads.  :icon_smile_big:



Ron

Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 21, 2008, 09:30:39 AM

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on January 21, 2008, 07:46:11 AM
Ron, just wonderin, do i need to make sure i get pistons in this kit that feature valve reliefs, or will i be okay with regualr pistons.

Chris, all the 440 source 470 stroker kits have some valve relief area in the pistons for increased valve lift.  :2thumbs:

The slugs you want for yours will have a 4cc valve relief which will yield ~ 10.5:1 compression ratio which is perfect for a pump gas street build with closed chamber aluminum heads.  :icon_smile_big:

SWEET!!!! Now ive gotta get the money to order the lit, hehe  :D :D :D :D

Ron

anybody reccomend any particular torque converter, 3800-4500 stall is what i need

How about PTC? http://www.ptcrace.com/. These are who I'm planning on going with when I go to get a converter for my 505.  The best way to get in touch with them is to call them, in case you decide to go with them. I've had one of there converters in the past, no complaints.

 :iagree: PTC 9.5in converter is what i would use.....$450.00 at CRT (Cope Racing Transmissions)


https://www.coperacingtrans.com/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=246



Ron

Dukeboy,
you on about Craig from Cincy?
or some no-life that doesnt know what he is talking bout?

Quote from: 451-74Charger on January 25, 2008, 11:08:37 AM
Dukeboy,
you on about Craig from Cincy?
or some no-life that doesnt know what he is talking bout?

say what?

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on January 25, 2008, 11:26:39 AM

Quote from: 451-74Charger on January 25, 2008, 11:08:37 AM
Dukeboy,
you on about Craig from Cincy?
or some no-life that doesnt know what he is talking bout?

say what?

clarify please

hey, ron, quick question, would you use a stock style kickdown linkage or an aftermarket cable system on this combo? :shruggy:

Quote from: dukeboy_318 on February 28, 2008, 07:56:18 PM
hey, ron, quick question, would you use a stock style kickdown linkage or an aftermarket cable system on this combo? :shruggy:

If the stock linkage will work you can just go ahead and use it.  :Twocents:

The street dominator is low enough to use the stock setup.  :yesnod:


Ron

thanks, main reason i ask is that i found a 383/727 in a junkyard in a polara that still had the linkage on it. thanks