In my recent winged warrior newsletter theres this statement in the ad. From Jack Mc Gaughey.A nascar metal fabricator out of GA.And it says( DUE TO VARIATIONS IN FENDERS .I NEED YOUR CAR TO CORRECTLY FIT NOSE CONE..And I have heard this statement before from only one other vendor many years back and I wondered why that is as.My thoughts are on this if you copy a original nos cone or a good survivor one for your mold.Then every nose copy will be the same as the back in the day factory production run of those nose cones.And they tend to be around $6000-$7000.And you have a additional expense to have a car shipped to GA.I would think the factory mass production assembled fenders would have been in some kind of a holding jig before becoming welded up.And run alike
:popcrn:
It's probably due to the fact that after so many years these cars have been hit, rusted, sagged, taken apart, restored & just wore out due to the conditions that vary with each car. Also, some people have less tolerance for a part that may not look as tight fitting as they could. The factory did build junk at times, & the quality control always suffered. Most cars that are restored are done so to look better, & have better parts than new. A lot become show cars that aren't daily drivers anymore.
If Jack Mc Gaughey can fabricate a part to fit perfect, why not? It won't take any more on his part to do it right as opposed to doing it almost right. He charges quite a bit for these noses, & whether it's worth the price or not to someone, for that kind of money, it should be perfect. That, & he may also want to have a very happy customer to refer him to another person. For someone in my postion, I can't afford a part like his, & also not worried about a perfect fit since I plan on beating on my car once in a while.
I can see that if the car is not square .And needed frame straightening.Or front end support structure.Replaced and not welded up right .Those would alter fitting and alignment issues .Then you got the untouched survivor cars.I had superbirds where the original fender tops didnt mate well to the original nose corners.And they had these nose rubber filler material inside.Not like the daytona where it shows the rubber filler.And figured that how it was going to be and fit like as creative did them as they are.They didnt hand build these like as if was a Mercedes.They stamped them out in a press and brazed them together for the run of needed cars .And how it was was how it was.Gave each car its own individual personality.
Good salesmanship? Tolerences weren't what they are now and most people weren't around in that era and are looking for a level of perfection that wasn't there.Also there is the "tweek it to fit" factor.He can make the nose "fit" so when the customer puts it on the car everybody is happy. :Twocents:
With a steel nose, I can see where there would be a need for custom fitting. If the part were fiberglass, it would be easy to reshape to conform to the fender after installation. But, once that steel nose is built, there ain't no changing it. Well, not easily anyway.
Quote from: Old Moparz on January 20, 2006, 11:17:26 AM
It's probably due to the fact that after so many years these cars have been hit, rusted, sagged, taken apart, restored & just wore out due to the conditions that vary with each car. Also, some people have less tolerance for a part that may not look as tight fitting as they could. The factory did build junk at times, & the quality control always suffered. Most cars that are restored are done so to look better, & have better parts than new. A lot become show cars that aren't daily drivers anymore.
If Jack Mc Gaughey can fabricate a part to fit perfect, why not? It won't take any more on his part to do it right as opposed to doing it almost right. He charges quite a bit for these noses, & whether it's worth the price or not to someone, for that kind of money, it should be perfect. That, & he may also want to have a very happy customer to refer him to another person. For someone in my postion, I can't afford a part like his, & also not worried about a perfect fit since I plan on beating on my car once in a while.
Bob,................you,ve pretty much on the "mark" there!....................as restoration s reach higher levels, become more $$$$$$, ...people demand a higher degree of quality "control" in their cars restoration, and the quality of the repro parts must reflect this desire!..............Dave, I thought you were versed in the "history of the nosecones"?............................they were fabed on the Kirksite forms, basicly a body buck,.........kirsite is an alloy, with lead like properties, and hard like zinc,.................the nose panels were formed over the "bucks", being hammered to contour, fit one another, then when finialized, welded....................this led to one problem, the kirsite, being "soft", gave way to repeated blows from hammers, spoons,etc...............so the metalsmiths, after createing a nosecone would, heat and reshape the distorted areas,........problem #2.............no two cones are the same!....................problem #3 human fatique,..............the original number of cars to be built was to be 50,.......that's why this tecnique was chosen (cost saving was cheap labor, verses tooling cost of die stamping)..............50 cones for 50 assorted factory backed/ private race teams, not the later 500 required by NASCAR!..................this put tremendous strains on what later became the 16 man crew making 12 -14 cones per day!..........so what QC there was,...... was now going "south", big time........never mind when the demand for the # of bird cones that would be required later!...............Gene Gregory, later bought these kirksite "bucks", when Chrysler cleaned house, I believe he got 4 out of the 6 originals, the original prototype Mahogonany wood daytona nosecone has never been found! this was used to create the kirksite "bucks"................the engineering team at CREATIVE IND. crafted the wooden nose!......this is how backyard or lowbuck this program was!............however Mr. Gregory used the kirksites to "tool the nessacary dies" needed for him to recreate a short run of nosecones and panels in the late 80's into the early 90's...........Gene later sold the kirsites for scrap value, as they were replaced with more progressive tooling!.......however a piece of history is lost!.................Gene has a few projects in the works, Nosecones.......? maybe...........$10K!
When Jack McGaughey got started on the merry wing trail several years ago, we talk after he completed repairing his first cone, and he told me , he made templates and would use them to repair the next rotted, damaged cone he received, and someday possible fabrication of complete cones..............I told Jack, the "history of the cone", and to beware of no 2 cones being the same!...............well, Jack was skeptical at first!.................until several months later he called me, in disgust!, that he now had 6 different templates in his shop, 3 more used cones, none of which matched any of his templates!...........he said what am I too do!, I told him either settle with the templates from the best cone you 've had or start matching them to the cars if possible!...............well we see which way he's going!...........the Daytona nose is forgiving as it sits 3/4" away from the fenders, because of the "filler" strip,.........so alignment is not as critical as the bird!.............the bird cone I have presently, is a very nice, never hit piece, however its soft, because surface rust has thinned it to paper thickness!...........it has however lent itself to producing a nice mold for the bird cones I hope to have ready this summer!..........only a small handful!..........I recently had acsess to a NOS bird cone, beautiful, only proplem was the grill area was so deminsionaly off!, it wasn't funny!...........I passed on that as a candiate,......as I've said to the "dopes" that demand NOS, over better quality repros, NOS is line (assembly) reject, vendor QC rejects!..........when the federal act was passed in the late fiftys, requiring that auto manufactures maintain a minimum of 7 years inventory of parts for each model offered, inventory became a problem!..........however the "bean counters" saw a loophole!...........instead of destroying QC / line failed parts, return them to inventory!..........thus sometimes NOS=junk!........I've had some weird look'in NOS stuff in the last 25- 30 years of buying it!............I sure some of you have seen some "strange things" also!............well enough from me!
Mike G/ DAYCLONA
WOW,the things you don't learn in school!!!
Quote from: Highbanked Hauler on January 20, 2006, 08:59:04 PM
WOW,the things you don't learn in school!!!
Hey " Hauler"..........enjoyed seeing, you and your car over the years! esp. the Vernon show!.............................so you didn't go to Wing'r University? :o................that's right: you 500 guys go to Clipped wing High School!........................you know to us wingcar guys, you 500 guys are a "bird" of a different feather., we still flock together..................but, you guys.............your kinda like penquins................still .birds?, but no wings! :smilielol:
Mike G
Penquin,..........the other white meat
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MEAT AHHHHHHHHHHHH :icon_smile_tongue: DOH
Interesting stuff, Mike. However, I do wonder where one tidbit you threw out came from:
Quote from: dayclona on January 20, 2006, 08:42:12 PM
the original number of cars to be built was to be 50,.......that's why this tecnique was chosen (cost saving was cheap labor, verses tooling cost of die stamping)..............50 cones for 50 assorted factory backed/ private race teams, not the later 500 required by NASCAR!
The memo I have from the earliest days of the Daytona (when it was still known as the "Super Charger") shows Chrysler intended to build 500 street cars from the start. Of course, they also initially intended the nose to be fiberglass. Is that what you're referring to, that perhaps race noses were intended to be steel and the street noses fiberglass?
Quote from: hemigeno on January 20, 2006, 11:19:24 PM
Interesting stuff, Mike. However, I do wonder where one tidbit you threw out came from:
Quote from: dayclona on January 20, 2006, 08:42:12 PM
the original number of cars to be built was to be 50,.......that's why this tecnique was chosen (cost saving was cheap labor, verses tooling cost of die stamping)..............50 cones for 50 assorted factory backed/ private race teams, not the later 500 required by NASCAR!
The memo I have from the earliest days of the Daytona (when it was still known as the "Super Charger") shows Chrysler intended to build 500 street cars from the start. Of course, they also initially intended the nose to be fiberglass. Is that what you're referring to, that perhaps race noses were intended to be steel and the street noses fiberglass?
Gene, 50 cars were intended for factory / private sponsored teams, I remember 30 some odd # cars being needed to cover all the teams, with the remainder being back up cars,........I know chrysler tested a fiberglass nose, only from a economical production point!...................however, chrysler never intended to produce street versions, the 50 daytonas were ok'd by Bill France, initially...........as modified follow up charger 500's, chrysler was presenting a vauge concept of modification at the time, hideing their true plans,France bought it cause it was late in the race season, chrysler had a fair season................so some "front end mods", "spoiler lip adjustments" we're no big deal..............I forget the name of the Ford driver who witnessed an early test (secrective) run of the first daytona mock up............went balling to Ford excs, this started a fury of calls between Ford, GM, Chrysler and France( France was in Fords back pocket).........Chrysler was forced to bring the car to Nascar mods for evaluation, they hit the roof!.....total production was to be 400 street consumption units ..............then ordered to 500 min.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,( consumption unit, being for sale to the public, build as many racecars as you want but, meet the consumption quota, NASCAR was betting on Chrysler "throwing in the towel", instead they "scrambled").................,fiberglass nosecones were considered for Nascar..........but the ruling was denial,............several weeks into actual racing of the daytona............the cable reinforment rule thru out the wing came about after one rear ender, with the wing going air borne ( I have that pic somewhere?)...................do you have the doc, your talking about, I think i know the one your talking about (wing Warriors, newsletter) ?????
I got that August 69 motor trend.With the car refered to as the supercharger.Which is the white mule car.And read something somewhere mentionong about a glass nose would fold in at excess speed of 200MPH.And alot of my vintage 69-70 magazines that had introductry info.Had mentioned a fiberglass front end.Or fiberglass frog eye headlights.And in another 69 vintage magazine road test they show the mold and the glass nose on the prototype car in the studio.With model Sandra Quinn posing in front of the mold.Which lead some early magazine editors. And probably when it was in its earliest development stages to believe fiberglass was to be used on the front end.Also Hemi Geno I recall reading in the supercars book where the automotive press was invited to view a prototype daytona with a glass nose and wing.April 69.And that they used a ((500)).But I only recall seeing in the magazines .That white mule car with 3 hood pins pasted on reflectors taped out headlights etc etc .And it didnt have a flush rear window as a 500 would have.But seemed not right to me as they mentioned using a 500.A 69 500 its window plug is flush and added the daytona fiberglass nose and wing parts to it.If remember all this stuff correctly.I do recall the 71 race car with the odd wing it had a window plug .And recall a testing device placed in the nose called the probe.Which the daytona almost got named after.And recall something else about a memo on that 71 mule car in the museum wasnt authentic.Just some more daytona related material. I can recall reading about from some years back
Quote from: dayclona on January 21, 2006, 12:12:40 AM
Gene, 50 cars were intended for factory / private sponsored teams, I remember 30 some odd # cars being needed to cover all the teams, with the remainder being back up cars,........I know chrysler tested a fiberglass nose, only from a economical production point!...................however, chrysler never intended to produce street versions, the 50 daytonas were ok'd by Bill France, initially...........as modified follow up charger 500's, chrysler was presenting a vauge concept of modification at the time, hideing their true plans,France bought it cause it was late in the race season, chrysler had a fair season................so some "front end mods", "spoiler lip adjustments" we're no big deal..............I forget the name of the Ford driver who witnessed an early test (secrective) run of the first daytona mock up............went balling to Ford excs, this started a fury of calls between Ford, GM, Chrysler and France( France was in Fords back pocket).........Chrysler was forced to bring the car to Nascar mods for evaluation, they hit the roof!.....total production was to be 400 street consumption units ..............then ordered to 500 min.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,( consumption unit, being for sale to the public, build as many racecars as you want but, meet the consumption quota, NASCAR was betting on Chrysler "throwing in the towel", instead they "scrambled").................,fiberglass nosecones were considered for Nascar..........but the ruling was denial,............several weeks into actual racing of the daytona............the cable reinforment rule thru out the wing came about after one rear ender, with the wing going air borne ( I have that pic somewhere?)...................do you have the doc, your talking about, I think i know the one your talking about (wing Warriors, newsletter) ?????
Mike, I do not believe the initial part of the Daytona's development went down that way. That may be the folklore version, but no way, no how would Bill France have allowed modifications to the sheet metal of a 500. Why else would they have had to put the A-pillar deflectors on street cars in the first place? Why would they have been so worried about the fender scoop holes that they cut them on the street versions? Why would they have put the wing (quarter panel) braces on the street cars when their top speeds would never buckle the quarters? Why would they have put flaps around the radiator and K-frame when there is no significant advantage for a street application? All because of NASCAR's rule of "you run it on the street, or you don't run it on the track" (I know, an oversimplifcation, but it's generally true).
For a while, the Daytona was even referred to as the F-series (1970) race car, and I have the documents to back that up. The Daytona was initially planned as the 1970 race car, that's the whole reason the nosecone was fitted to 70 Charger front clip components. The schedule was changed primarily as a result of the C500's loss at Daytona (Feb '69), and the Daytona emerged as a modified '69 model year car as a result. The Charger 500 in a lot of paperwork I have is even referred to as the 1969 Race Car.
I had not seen the memo I just acquired before in any newsletter, although by no means have I seen everything. If it hasn't been published before, it wil be printed in an upcoming WW newsletter. One of the signators is Bob Rodger, and I just shipped a copy over to David Patik this week for him to take a look at it. It's dated in March of 1969, and even predates the 3/8 scale model testing. It clearly indicates 500 units to be built. That's before they had the nosecone configuration settled, and long before the press car/prototype was converted (it even mentions a schedule for getting that car built). That's why I mentioned the fiberglass nosecone reference in that document - it was sent out EARLY in the Daytona's formative process. I don't know where the 50 unit story got started, but it didn't start internally at Chrysler.
I'll stand corrected on any of these points if the documentation is presented to prove otherwise. I can back up what I've presented, and some things can be found in multiple sources.
BTW, the cable reinforcement for the wing is as you said. Doug Schellinger has mentioned the car and the race that the event you described (the horizontal wing sectuib flying off) happened at, but I've forgotten those details. I do remember no one was hurt, thankfully.
If necessary, I will scan in a copy of the memo, since it's not exclusive to the Winged Warriors. I won't be able to do that until next week though, since the memo and scanner are at my office.
There was a guy here ( or the old DC.com ) that said he had to make a pattern of your front end so he could make the right fit. As said before alot of these cars have been taken apart, restored or just had another fender added. All these things can change measurements and cause for a bad fit.
If your gonna do it, do it right the first time.
I think that it's way more than coincidental that the 70 charger fenders and hood worked so well with the nose fitment. There's no way that those parts just coincedentally worked perfectly for that nose. Many years ago I was told that the fenders and hood were actually pre-developed for the nose cone fitment since the 69 style hood and fenders weren't shaped correctly to make the nose fit. The 71 body style was originally supposed to be released in 70 along with the new e-bodies. That's why the 70 e-bodies and the 71 b-bodies share a lot of similarities such as mirrors, consoles, shifters, high back seats, etc. When they were forced to make a few simple styling changes at the last minute to get a b-body to market for the 70 model year they simply built a bumper to match up to the daytona style fenders. The superbird was a last minute plan also and they were forced to use the similarly constructed coronet fenders instead of creating a whole new fender to fit the nose. It's obvious how much of a time constraint they were under to have to do such a chop job on the coronet hood to make it work to match the nose.
I'm not trying to be an expert here, it should be obvious that I'm not, but I'm old enough to remember that ma mopar worked a little differently than the rest of the manufacturers.
If the daytona guys have the internal memos that refute this, I would love to see it. I've never quite figured out the timeline of that obviously turbulent year or so at Chrysler.
hotrod,
The memo I have does indicate that they were going to use '70 Charger front clip components for the Super Charger (aka Daytona). Chrysler was going through a loop bumper phase about then in their automotive design - all you have to do is look at the '69 and '70 C-bodies to show what their trend was.
You're absolutely right that pure coincidence played no role in the fitment of the Daytona nosecone. However, from what I've seen the nose was designed/fitted to the '70 Charger sheet metal, not the other way around.
I have no idea on what the original timeline was for the introduction of the 3rd generation Charger was, but I don't think the '70 Charger front clip was an afterthought. Had its fenders and hood not been conducive to a nosecone, I think you would have seen some other inventive solution to the problem, a la the Superbird-Coronet connection.
I still can't post the memo until Monday though.
Hey Hot Rod, If they weren't planning to use the 70 fenders,then why does that photo of the prototype with the girl in it,have the 70 marker light stamped out in it! Dave I would think that the variations in fenders,and hoods would be more critical on the Superbird,than it is on the Daytona,the Daytona has the gasket,and would be more forgiving to tolerance issues! When I heard that before,I measured all of the 70 Charger fenders,and hoods,and none of them varied by more than an eighth of an inch,and most were within a sixteenth!
I came across another document.For the daytona were it says furnish a XX29 charger daytona model .Made from a basic XS29 Charger R/T that lists (400) units 4-15-69 Job numbers from BX926100-927499.And at the bottom says build as a 500 RT.I do hope Hemi Geno will post that memo.As these type of unknown unforseen chrysler memos surface .I had one that I sent to Dave P Sue G.Where it was a memo from Frank Wylie asking to use on a 67 dart .The daytona name.Got a few pages with creative industries of Detroit letter head Aug 18 69.For superbird development details for plymouth nascar program miscellaneous tooling aids.nose cone cone assembly .060 rigidized fiberglass. etc details.probabably isnt in any past or present newsletter.So there is this kind of stuff floating around .I hope that memo Hemi Geno has is something I never seen or heard of before .Like that dated 67 Dart Daytona name usage issue memo
Mike, I do not believe the initial part of the Daytona's development went down that way. That may be the folklore version, but no way, no how would Bill France have allowed modifications to the sheet metal of a 500. Why else would they have had to put the A-pillar deflectors on street cars in the first place? Why would they have been so worried about the fender scoop holes that they cut them on the street versions? Why would they have put the wing (quarter panel) braces on the street cars when their top speeds would never buckle the quarters? Why would they have put flaps around the radiator and K-frame when there is no significant advantage for a street application? All because of NASCAR's rule of "you run it on the street, or you don't run it on the track" (I know, an oversimplifcation, but it's generally true).
For a while, the Daytona was even referred to as the F-series (1970) race car, and I have the documents to back that up. The Daytona was initially planned as the 1970 race car, that's the whole reason the nosecone was fitted to 70 Charger front clip components.
BTW, the cable reinforcement for the wing is as you said. Doug Schellinger has mentioned the car and the race that the event you described (the horizontal wing sectuib flying off) happened at, but I've forgotten those details. I do remember no one was hurt, thankfully.
If necessary, I will scan in a copy of the memo, since it's not exclusive to the Winged Warriors. I won't be able to do that until next week though, since the memo and scanner are at my office.
Quote
Gene,
Sheetmetal, engine, tires, rules,exceptions..............have all been made in NASCAR in the past, present................and will continue!
Dodge was allowed to install a spoiler mid season on the 66 Charger, because of handling problems,...........becoming the first stockcar in history to compete with a trunk mounted spoiler
NASCAR "looked the other way" in late 68 when Ford was readying 69 Torino/ talladegas with Boss 429's...............did they build street versions .................NO!...........in a loophole, they installed Bosses in Mustangs, modified by Kar Kraft (Ford's Creative Ind.).........France allowed them this for two years!..............as I said Chrysler also tried to "backdoor" the daytona mods on to the 500, France allowed the mods, ...........to an agreeded upon 50 cars,...........upon disclosure,actual veiwing,................. Nascar, (with Ford bullying France )imposed a 400 unit build, later modified to 500, as Ford pushed the issue,.....................(fyi the first purposed 50 cars weren't going to have the wing we all reconize today,...........have you seen a "squid tube" wing?)........................................................................Look at the imposed unit build on superbirds ,..........2 cars per factory authorized plymouth dealer, total 2010+ units,...........( if you subscribe to the 1935, 1969 unit build , your out of touch with current facts).............later the imposing 5 litre limit on wingcars wanting to run in the later seasons,.........................as you may be aware, the 71 wingcar program was terminated in mid season 1970, as the 5 litre limit was imposed,...............however prior to that , a deal was made to have 1500 dealer installed 71 wingcar packages ready for plymouth, as plymouth was committed to their wingcar program, having given Petty racing full control of the program in late 69,( Petty would end his 1 year hiatus with Ford, if he had complete control of Plymouths wingcar program).....................the 5 litre limit forced Chrysler to abandon the entire program,..................fyi,...........GM, put up a stink with France allowing plymouth, to have dealer installed packages ready for the purposed 71 wingcars!!................however approx 15 years later, GM is allowed by NASCAR to do the same thing with "glassback" monte carlo ss, and grande prix 2+2 cars,(incase you weren't aware these cars were dealer built)..............this was a mid season allowance, on Nascars behalf!
yes Gene the Daytona is an F-series listing, the Daytona was grouped with the superbird, thus the F designation, the 500 fell in the E-series desingnation with incompassed 68-69 body style,and the G-series(71) being the new purposed body, a G-series designation would have incompassed the 71-74 body styles, had they been built, the letter designation in wingcars /aerocars (500), is not desciptive of when a car was to be produced,(merely the aerodynamics.package applied to a specfic body style)..................................the insistance that the daytona was to be a 70 model, is based apon early factory lititure stating the cars debut as a 70 model, Nascar wasn't going to be duped into letting Chrysler run now, build later!, that's why the Daytona became a 69 1/2 offering,................................................................................................I too have many docs, access to docs, information, I don't suround myself at the computer with them however?(I have too many stinkin wingcar parts in the house as it is! ;D).................as the minutia in wincar history can become quite laden with paperwork, some valid, some superseded, some obsolete?
Mike G/ Dayclona
Mike, I had a very long message typed up in response, but I've participated too much in dragging this thread off course already.
If you have something that shows Chrysler intended to modify Charger500's without introducing it as a street model (and meeting NASCAR's homologation requirements), I would sincerely like to see it. That position is simply not supported in the documentation I have.
I'll gladly stand corrected if your position can be corroborated.
Quote from: hemigeno on January 23, 2006, 03:21:04 AM
Mike, I had a very long message typed up in response, but I've participated too much in dragging this thread off course already.
If you have something that shows Chrysler intended to modify Charger500's without introducing it as a street model (and meeting NASCAR's homologation requirements), I would sincerely like to see it. That position is simply not supported in the documentation I have.
I'll gladly stand corrected if your position can be corroborated.
Hey Geno!............it's like 4:30 in the am, half awake.or half asleep................................................anyway I keep it short,...............Hackett Brass the sub vendor of Centr-O-Cast, the main vendor of Chryslers pot metal trim, ........................Hackett Brass, being a very small opperation (nessasary to keep cost down in the wingcar development) was employed to produce 50, repeat 50, (Fifty), (5-0)..........experimental/ limited run spoiler stanchions( squid tubes, I mention prevouisly), this was all that was needed to get the horizontal blade up in the desired air flow..............(do you know what a "squid tube spoiler" looks like?)...............the initial order was intended to modify 50 cars, exsisting or new construction, nobody knows?, because the initial Nascar/ France authorization was resended,.............as I mentioned earlier,.....................in order to use the modiforcations, an intial 400 consumption units had to be furnished,.(consumption unit being, a general public enity).later increased to 500 units.....................A run of 50 sqiud tubes was run, however they were useless as now Chrysler (and the styling dept) had to incorporate a marketable approach to "selling" the public "The Winged Thing"!!..........................Gene I too, can ramble on, I've researched, admired,collected what I could on the aero cars since I was a teenager, ....................some thirty years ago!, anyway Gene, one quick document to look at,.......................try www.WWNBOA.com...................look for Hackett Brass,or....................makers of the wings doc................should find in table of contents, .........I'll try to dig up others I have/seen over the years!..............................this should subdue your quest!, or increase your need for more info! ;D
PS...........the then VP of Hackett Brass ,........was a Mr. Fine, Charles Fine,..............................not Larry Fine! :icon_smile_big:
Mike /DAYCLONA
I was the one who originally located the www.hackettbrass.com discovery. (Found in about or company bio) on there website.Winged Warriors/National B-Body Owners Association - Maker of the ...
Maker of the Wings By Sue George. Last fall, New Jersey member Dave Benasutti
contacted me to say that he'd been surfing the Internet and found a web site ...
wwnboa.org/motw.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar page.As found on this google search result
.And made that known to Sue and Ed at Winged warriors.Where I suggested that she make the contact for the club.And see what developed.That led to the maker of the wings article that Sue wrote up for the newsletter and posted on the website and.I also got a response from her for the 67 daytona dart paperwork.I have a copy of her reply for July 1, 2001.And got to find the maker of the wing email.I also had found a ex chrysler exec in my town .Who worked warranty .By taking down vin numbers back in the day at 1/4 drags and And would not allow factory warranty repairs .On the cars on his list
Hi Dave!
The Dart/Daytona paperwork came in Friday's mail. THANKS a million for sharing it with me! This is an awesome document! Do you care if I put it in an upcoming newsletter?
I also noticed that I forgot to run your Daytona wanted ad in the July issue. Assuming you haven't found a car yet, I'll run it again in the August which I'm finishing up right now.
Incidentally, did you see the $105,000 Daytona in the July Hemmings?! Yikes!!
Sue
Hi Dave:
That was a wonderfully interesting story about Mr. McGill getting the Vin numbers from the race tracks for Chrysler! Do you care if I use this little blurb in the October newsletter?
If you do get an interview with this fascinating man please write up a story about it for the newsletter. The members will really enjoy that kind of info!
Thanks!
Sue
WW/NBOA
I recently found a another former exec and made know to the club . Who had the job to allocate the finished waiting to ship 69 daytonas .From creative Industries.To the dealers that recieved there daytonas through his zone dept.
Im looking forward to see the document Hemi Geno has came up with.
Mike,
Just because Hackett Brass was initially commissioned to build 50 wing stanchions does NOT mean there were no plans to build corresponding street versions. You're making a giant leap in logic, by taking the initial Hackett Brass instructions and assuming that is the limit and extent to the whole of the Daytona project. It still looks to me like those first (Race) Daytona vertical stabilizers are taller than a street Daytona's, although it could just be the angle of the photography (but I have 28 Race Daytona pictures hanging on the wall, and 12 more in the drawer that look mostly the same in that regard).
Kudos once again to Dave B. for coming up with the Hackett Brass connection in the first place. I do remember reading about it, but I did not link it to what you were saying, since your interpretation flies in the face of all the other documentation. The links to the articles are not working right now, but IIRC the guy whose recollections were quoted was a little foggy on his details. I wouldn't use that as incontrovertable proof that everything else written on the subject is wrong. If that's what we should do, then every 4-speed Daytona should have a Hurst T-shifter handle on it, since the original owner of my car specifically remembers buying it from the dealer with one of those - the salesman told him it was special equipment... :rotz:
I contend that the engineers ALWAYS had the street Daytona in mind, and viewed it essentially as a '70 model. As proof of that statement, here are two excerpts from R.P. Marcell & G.F. Romberg's abstract:
Quote from: Marcell&Romberg
ABSTRACT
The aerodynamic features of the race version of the Charger Daytona, an aerodynamically modified 1970 Charger, are discussed. Effects of major specific modifications are evaluated individually and as a total package. Wind tunnel techniques and philosophy employed in the Daytona Development Program are also discussed.
(bold emphasis added)
Quote from: Marcell&Romberg
EFFECTS OF DAYTONA RACE PACKAGE - In developing the Daytona, it was not practical to improve all of the areas having significant effects on vehicle axial force, lift and handling. Instead, only those areas capable of being changed within the stock car rules and without major structural re-design or without making the car impractical for street use were considered. This approach resulted in the use of
"add-on" hardware to "clean-up" and improve the car aerodynamically. The Charger Daytona has been modified in the following way to improve performance and handling through aerodynamics:
1) Extended Streamlined Front End - An 18" low form drag extension has been mounted on the "loop" bumper mounts of the standard 1970 Charger.
2) Front Undernose Spoiler - A fixed 5" chord, 51" span spoiler has been mounted 13" aft of the nose leading edge at a 45 degree angle to the ground
3) Backlight Modification - The rear window or backlight slope has been changed from approximately 45 degrees to 22 degrees from the horizontal and the side window to backlight junction has been faired.
4) Rear Deck Vertical Stabilizers - Two fixed symmetrical vertical stabilizers have been mounted at the rear of the rear fenders.
5) Rear Deck Horizontal Stabilizer - A 58" span, 7-1/2" chord aerodynamic control surface has been mounted 23-1/2" above the rear deck between the vertical stabilizers. An adjustment range of +2 degrees to -10 degrees is provided.
Items 1, 2, 4, and 5 will be referred to as the Daytona Aerodynamic Package since they represent changes from the 1969 race car. Item 3, although different from the standard Charger, is a carry-over from the 1969 race car.
(bold emphasis added)
Do you have anything from Chrysler to substantiate what you've said?
Here is Sues write up on the wing maker
Quote from: hemigeno on January 23, 2006, 11:35:29 AM
Mike,
Just because Hackett Brass was initially commissioned to build 50 wing stanchions does NOT mean there were no plans to build corresponding street versions. You're making a giant leap in logic, by taking the initial Hackett Brass instructions and assuming that is the limit and extent to the whole of the Daytona project. It still looks to me like those first (Race) Daytona vertical stabilizers are taller than a street Daytona's, although it could just be the angle of the photography (but I have 28 Race Daytona pictures hanging on the wall, and 12 more in the drawer that look mostly the same in that regard).
. The links to the articles are not working right now,
The "squid tube" stanchions were never used (except on the red prototype "mule" daytona), your 28 +12 pics of daytona race cars are indeed wearing "race configuration" wings (they differ in internal structure and mounting systems, but outward appearances, are identical to "street wing),..........................like I said "do you know what a squid tube looks like?".....................find one,..........................you'll be surprised!....................hummmm, 50 ?.................why not the full compliment of 500+ needed, if the daytona was going to be offered right from the start as a "production car", ......why would we need 50 hedious "squid tube" stanchions?.............couldn't put them on the "racecar", and offer something else on the "street version",.........now could we?..........................perhaps Wingcar6970 has a "squid" pic,?.............no?
And yes "kudos " to Dave B for encouraging Sue George for printing the information, ...............as most of us in the "know" ,................find S. George will only print, discuss items that are "sliced, diced, and spoon fed" to her(re: she has no time for research, you do it for her!)...............(trust me!),............this is why I, and others , have not shared photos, docs,etc any longer with W. Warriors,.......the last time photos,info was shared with her "club officers",.............and I contacted her several months later for a "whats up",......................her reply" My people don't share info with me , if you could send me the info, plus write the column, story,bio, supply the pics, etc, etc!.......................................( hell if I'm gonna do that!, mind as well print my own newsletter!)................................................................................. What kind of club is this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!So her club officers retain information gathered as personal info!,..........while masquerading as "do gooders" for the club, to obtain info,!.............................................................................
I've allready "handed out" info,...............I've led you to it ,find it, just as I had to many years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS ,.....................yeah! W. Wonders is a "sore" spot, not only with me but with many people :flame: if you had the "behind the scenes" knowledge/ experiences with the groups individuals, that I've had with them, (believe me there are lot more!)you'd understand my attitude!
Mike G/ DAYCLONA
Quote from: dayclona on January 23, 2006, 07:03:22 PM
I've allready "handed out" info,...............I've led you to it ,find it, just as I had to many years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What exactly have you "led" me to?
:scope: :shruggy: :popcrn:
I'm not the naiive person you obviously think I am when it comes to WW, so don't assume I have had no interesting experiences with them - you'd be mistaken. I'll leave it at that. :-X
I Usually send thru the mail or email both clubs Im in. Any new wingcar related discoverys. I come across.To ad more content to the already informative newsletter I recieve.Hopefully more will do the same and share the info.So more can be found out about our special cars
I agree, if the folks that do run across things of interest would share them (as I'm in the process of doing with this Product Planning Letter), the whole state of the hobby would be better off.
Dave, did you get my PM?
Mike, just as a point of clarification for myself, when you talk about the GM aero cars as being dealer built, do you mean they built a specific number based on the number of dealers or that they were a conversion done at the dealerships?
Now Im looking for something else nosecone related.Where I think I read about on a racing daytona where the nose was made from a hard rubber compound weighing 150 LBS.
Wow this thread went way out its origional course didn't it.
Iteresting reading, now I wish I had read it before hand, instead of having to read it all now.
Quote from: Ghoste on January 24, 2006, 09:59:51 AM
Mike, just as a point of clarification for myself, when you talk about the GM aero cars as being dealer built, do you mean they built a specific number based on the number of dealers or that they were a conversion done at the dealerships?
Ghoste,
GM, suupplied the dealers with the required number of kits to satisfy Nascar min. requirement to "allow" the airdam, rear "glassback", trunk, rear airfoil modifications to new/ exsisting raceteam cars, as to whether the full number of dealer cars was built, we'll have to get a shivy guy too tell us!....................all Nascar was concerned about , was the min number of kits was issued!.....................several manufactures over the history of racing have tried to circumvent racing rules, limits, requirements, etc............... some more suscessful then others;..........sometimes if a manufacturer is a dominant force to contend with they usally get their way..............................look how long chevrolet has dominated racing, at one time Mopar was the force to reckon with.................but they lacked the "backbone" to command it! and maintain it!..................with Chryslers new presence,....................we're still waiting for those glory days!...............now had the 06 Charger been what it should have been...........a true Daytona.............I think we'd all be happy!.......................later Ghoste!
MG
Well I take issue with that then Mike because I was working for a Pontiac dealer at that time and I absolutely guarantee you that they rolled off the truck and went out onto the lots that way. We had a couple of the Grand Prix's go through.
If I dig deep enough, I probably still have my order binders from that time as well because I'm pretty sure they were an RPO (regular production option).
I found the magazine with discussion of the 71 Bobby Issac daytona .And Harry Hyde statements.The nose which weighed 100lbs and was constructed of a ((hardrubber compound)) bolted onto the front of the car.It contained a air intake to cool the radiator.and at the bottom edge a spoiler that was a as wide as the car.The sloped front end and the spoiler working together gave us a positive down force of about 200lbs said Hyde.
Then I found a copy of competetion press and autoweek May 3 69.Introducing .Dodges charger daytona to make Talledega debut. Where it describes the car as of having a wedge shaped nose with a( rubber bumper) on its front end.And that the hood and front fenders forward of the wheels are made of plastic which keeps the price down and weight down on a limited production model like the daytona .The side of the car also has sculpturing different from the present charger .These pieces are steel and its believed dies are the same as those already planned for use on next years charger
Quote from: Ghoste on January 24, 2006, 07:23:05 PM
Well I take issue with that then Mike because I was working for a Pontiac dealer at that time and I absolutely guarantee you that they rolled off the truck and went out onto the lots that way. We had a couple of the Grand Prix's go through.
If I dig deep enough, I probably still have my order binders from that time as well because I'm pretty sure they were an RPO (regular production option).
:scratchchin: :popcrn:
This oughta be good, Ghoste...
Well I have to dig up the binders if I still have them then. We definitely did not do any conversions at our dealership. Our owner was reluctant to even have one in for stock. He hated Firebirds too. He wanted to sell lots of Sunbirds, 6000's, and Century's. He would never have ordered one that he had to "finish". We had two come in that I remember for stock and one or two more that came in for ordered units. Not at the same time of course but over the span of a couple of years. They were not outrageously popular.
Quote from: Ghoste on January 24, 2006, 07:23:05 PM
Well I take issue with that then Mike because I was working for a Pontiac dealer at that time and I absolutely guarantee you that they rolled off the truck and went out onto the lots that way. We had a couple of the Grand Prix's go through.
If I dig deep enough, I probably still have my order binders from that time as well because I'm pretty sure they were an RPO (regular production option).
Well Ghoste,
I know thats what I had read, regarding them being a "dealer conversion" and the accompanying disclaimers on certain warranted items, when my friend was ordering his monte ss, perhaps your dealership wasn't authorized, equiped?................perhaps your dealership transfered,purchased those cars,...............perhaps the cars became RPO later in production? ................I don't cater to/ collect GM documents................sorry didn't work there?...................whats next ..........GNX's............were'nt coverted at ASC
MG
We aren't talking about GNX's and I'm not a Chevy expert either. As far as an authorized dealer, it said Pontiac Buick on the sign so someone must have okayed it at least that much. The dealership is still here in town and even though it's a small town they still generally have 50 to 100 new units in inventory.
It's not pertinent to this discussion but I am going to find out what I can just to satisfy myself.
The only other thing I can think of is that it's because I'm in Canada and IIRC, those cars were made in Canada at the time.
Found some. The cars were built in Texas and the conversion was done by Cars and Concepts in Michigan prior to being shipped to dealers and it was an RPO. There are rumors of some fake ones out there that may or may not have been dealer conversions so perhaps we are both right.
And just so it's pertinent, apparently Richard Petty worked closely with GM to develop the car which was initiated by a request from him in the first place. Seems he learned a thing or two from the Chrysler wing car program huh?
Quote from: hemigeno on January 24, 2006, 07:38:17 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on January 24, 2006, 07:23:05 PM
Well I take issue with that then Mike because I was working for a Pontiac dealer at that time and I absolutely guarantee you that they rolled off the truck and went out onto the lots that way. We had a couple of the Grand Prix's go through.
If I dig deep enough, I probably still have my order binders from that time as well because I'm pretty sure they were an RPO (regular production option).
:scratchchin: :popcrn:
This oughta be good, Ghoste...
FYI..............or GFY,......................Excuse me, I was busy researching!...............1986 monte carlo aero coupe, requires the purchase of " base model SS................add sales code B5T.............resulting in dealer installed aero coupe SS package...................201 units converted in 86,
the Monte Carlo SS aero coupe became a standard RPO in 1987..................RPO Z-65.................2285 units manufactured
So Ghoste you were correct, so was I............................................................................................Hey Homogene, you find that "squid tube" yet?.( want me to research that too!)....................................don't choke on that "popcorn" ................"Pal" :icon_smile_blackeye:
MG
Seems different between Chev and Pontiac as well since the Pontiacs were only done in 86 and only came as a fully loaded model. One RPO code and no other options.
But actually, according to the Mont Carlo Aerocoupe Registry, ALL Aerocoupe conversions were done by Cars and Concepts. They don't say anything about dealer installs.
Quote from: Ghoste on January 24, 2006, 09:22:43 PM
Seems different between Chev and Pontiac as well since the Pontiacs were only done in 86 and only came as a fully loaded model. One RPO code and no other options.
But actually, according to the Mont Carlo Aerocoupe Registry, ALL Aerocoupe conversions were done by Cars and Concepts. They don't say anything about dealer installs.
Hey Ghoste seeing that this post is so far gone off track! ( although Dave's still trying hard to keep it on track!!!!)........never cared much for the monte..............cool in its own way though!...(aero packageONLY!)..................what engines were available in the pontiacs 2+2 aero coupes?................or what engines were in "your" Canadian cars,....................305?.............."Iron Duke 4 cycl?............PM, me if you so desire or hell post here,...................maybe Hemigene-o might be interested?
MG
Quote from: Ghoste on January 24, 2006, 09:22:43 PM
Seems different between Chev and Pontiac as well since the Pontiacs were only done in 86 and only came as a fully loaded model. One RPO code and no other options.
But actually, according to the Mont Carlo Aerocoupe Registry, ALL Aerocoupe conversions were done by Cars and Concepts. They don't say anything about dealer installs.
Ghoste,.................was/ is Cars and Concepts,.......like a "Creative Industries"??????????.............or a performance dealer converting models??????????????????????distributing them???............for ex:............remember Baldwin/ Motion,..................later Motion Motors............coverted all kinds of chevy/GM,..........factory authorized conversions/ customs................I remember them (loc. Detroit, Mich) because my brother would allways have there dealer brochures!.............he was/ is a GM guy (sad)!!!! :o
MG
4 cyls? In a GP? In that era they came the same as the US ones with 305's. I didn't care for them either but I do remember that well as GM was too many years into it's "corporate engine" program and there were still customers who would complain. C&C was not a dealer, they would be more like Creative. They also used ASC a lot.
I recall thinking how much uglier it was than the Daytona and scoffing to people about GM whining about an "unfair advantage" when Chrysler did it but now that Mopar was out of it, apparently it was okay.
Until last night, I didn't know anything about Petty's involvement with it so I guess some good came out of discussing it.
I wonder if they will ever achieve the kind of rapid following that the real wing cars have?
Backing up a little to try and save the thread, do you think Autoweek even sent anyone to see the car or did they get their info off a teletype machine someplace?
Quote from: Ghoste on January 25, 2006, 04:47:33 AM
4 cyls? In a GP? In that era they came the same as the US ones with 305's. I didn't care for them either but I do remember that well as GM was too many years into it's "corporate engine" program and there were still customers who would complain. C&C was not a dealer, they would be more like Creative. They also used ASC a lot.
I recall thinking how much uglier it was than the Daytona and scoffing to people about GM whining about an "unfair advantage" when Chrysler did it but now that Mopar was out of it, apparently it was okay.
Until last night, I didn't know anything about Petty's involvement with it so I guess some good came out of discussing it.
I wonder if they will ever achieve the kind of rapid following that the real wing cars have?
Backing up a little to try and save the thread, do you think Autoweek even sent anyone to see the car or did they get their info off a teletype machine someplace?
Thanks for the info, Ghoste!..............even though it's GM..............it's somewhat,.........Aero-related,..as for the 4 cyl. request, I had heard some GP's 2+2 's were equipped this way?.............just rumor, allways wondered though?................................OK back to your last reply, to save the thread,.................probally, a teletype, or based on earlier "press releases",...............seeing it's a May realease, some publisher's sometimes had several months lead time,...................as the 1st daytona was a April 1 69 build date, I would think the design was finialized ;D
MG
Quote from: dayclona on January 24, 2006, 09:17:51 PM
Hey Homogene, you find that "squid tube" yet?.( want me to research that too!)....................................don't choke on that "popcorn" ................"Pal" :icon_smile_blackeye:
Mike,
Do you always resort to personal insults when you cannot win a debate?
I'm still waiting on you to produce any credible evidence that the Daytona program was ever intended to be 50 cars as you have explicitly insisted. Could it be that there's not any?
I will not be dissuaded by your attempt to pursue rabbit-trail side issues. If you have information to share, fine. If not, at least admit it.
Best and Kindest Regards to you, Sir
Your "Pal" Gene
Rabbit trails aside I always thought the first Dayton was built on February 7th 1969
Interesting read about the GM cars, and I too wonder if in another 5-6 years they will have a club following as faithful as the aero cars from 69-70 did in the late 70's to date.
So about this squib tube, does anyone actually have a version of this? Or is it just something that was reported, and not ever actually seen?
Danny,
You're right, Dale Reeker's car does have a 2/07 build date. The first/next Daytona batch was built at Hamtramck on 4/27.
It's weird how that the lowest (read: first) VIN assigned as a Daytona, is #502 (read: dead last) on the Shipping List, and shows a ship date of 9/8 - the last day they were listed as having been shipped out.
Of course, if they did a last-minute tally and found they were a car or two short, they could always have "added" Mr. Reeker's car to the list. That would be one car NASCAR wouldn't bother trying to verify if it had been converted and shipped or not - of course Mr. Reeker would tell them it had been (whether it was yet or not). Has anyone seen this car to know what its fender tag or broadcast sheet says, and if it still exists as a Daytona?
:shruggy:
I dont about Feb 7th .But the daytona build date start a 427 April --612 June 12 th I believe.Unless refering to my old wingcar friend Les B that car had a low 287*** vin. Im not sure but I might have a picture of the fender tag. .And when the discussion of many pages of wing car chatter was on moparts.On the vintage wingcar link.I brought up who remembered that 287 car.And a fender tag or something like a old wingcar vin list showing that 287 car was posted I think.And I got a pm that the car was around but didnt want it disclosed any further
Quote from: nascarxx29 on January 25, 2006, 09:58:59 AM
I dont about Feb 7th .But the daytona build date start a 427 April --612 June 12 th I believe
Not that it makes that much difference, but 434780 (#464 on the list) was built on 6/26, and there were two others with SPD's of 6/16 (#362 and #382).
I'm still trying to get to the bottom of the 780 car, which is the highest recorded VIN for a Daytona. I suspect it was built to replace one for Lenox Dodge that may have been damaged during assembly or conversion. There's some things I'm trying to understand on the SO numbers and how they are re-assigned, and the WW newsletter series on the Dealer Invoice Lists hasn't gotten that far yet. Way too early to say whether that's the case or not.
I will see if I can dig up anything on 434780
While looking up on 434780 .I had this 2 page WW newsletter submitted daytona vin list by GG as of 11-89 .It has 468330 and 500564 as recorded daytonas.Also a friend of mine currently has one of the daytonas owned by a chrysler exec.It is a very well optioned out car.To believe it I had to get a copy of its buildsheet from him
Boy, those are some high VIN's, especially that last one. It had to be at the very tail end of '69 model year production.
What info was given about those cars (by Galen, or whoever told Galen about them)?
500564? That seems awfully high. Other than the one 434xxx car, the others seem to stop at 414xxx. Which all seemed to be almost all Candian cars.
Is the Dale Reckner car not the one that used to be in New Castle Indiana?
I would try to geta copy of that sheet up on here.Showing the 2 higher vins .But you know how someone gets upset showing all those complete vins
If all they are is numbers on a list, don't worry about posting the listing. I am more curious to know if there's anything that substantiates those VIN's as being Daytonas besides Galen's word.
I'm NOT trying to bash Galen here, but I'd personally like to see more before adding them to my list of Daytonas.
I will try to post this 2 pager .Or pm it to you it was in one of my club newsletters in 89 called daytonas to date.With symbols remarkng SE and dealer installed AC its lowest vin is the 287970. Which is recorded a F6 green black interior 4 speed I found in a 79 newsletter highest vin 50064.The totals at that time was.503 built 328 known 292 known 440 36 known 426 6 known SE 4 known AC .I can find the page for the 69 500 in a minute.The 500s are 392 181 known .119 known 440. 62 known 426. 16 known AC. 8 known SE. 2 known SE AC.
If its in the WW archives, I have those (just not here at the office). It's up to you. I wonder how much verification was done to these lists, or if it's a compilation of what was thought to be true. Case in point - the four A/C cars listed. I had heard (just heard) that those were dealer add-ons or conversions, but you never know. If the Fender Tags show H51, then it'd be hard to argue their legitimacy.
I even dug up a 1975 newsletter thought you mightfind some of this stuff interesting from back in the day of 1975 .Where it mentions Robert Goulet had recieved a daytona.That was prepared by the Alexander brothers in Detroit michigan .And before it was delivered to him.The nose was leaded in.And special paint accented the car.Another celeb Mort Sahl Bob hope had one for promotional purposes.Raquel Welch wanted a daytona .But ended up with a Cuda convertible.Then a line down George Barris had a prototype daytona that was candy red.The car was destroyed on purpose.One while two of the mechanics were tuning a hemi daytona.The car somehow dragged them across the prep garage and out the wall.And all daytonas and superbirds were wrecked on the new car prep line when they came in.Chrysler replaced most of the noses with new ones.No bondo was allowed.The problem was the cars were to long on the conveyor line.At the end of the line when they got to the end.The conveyor would disconnect.And the car would stop and the next car would rear end the first.As reported by a chrysler quality control manager
I've heard some of those stories over the years too. Dave, you probably know much more than I do about what became of these stories...
IIRC the Goulet connection also involved a 1970 Daytona, did it not? Didn't someone later contact Mr. Goulet (or his "people") and find out the story wasn't true?
The problem with the story of damaging the noses of Daytonas during assembly, is they never came down ANY assembly line with the noses installed on them.
I don't know enough about the Superbirds to say for certain, but weren't they all partially built at Lynch Road (with no nosecones, similar to the Daytonas @ Hamtramck) and then shipped over to the Clairepoint Pre-production facility for their conversion work? Seems like the assembly line story for converted cars is a little suspect to me. It may have been reported by a real Chrysler Quality Control Manager as being true, and it certainly sounds plausible, but IMHO it's just not possible that it happened that way.
It's entertaining to read all of the old stuff, and to see what the state of the hobby was at the time. It wasn't big business as it is today. As someone has mentioned elsewhere, a restored car back then was merely one that had a fresh paint job and a nice interior. I sometimes wish that were still true today...
Some of this archive ww stuff if you can believe it as it was recorded.Is amazing Id came across a letter from 82 by the the father of the daytona Bob Mc Curry who green lighted the sketch John Pointer brought him of the known as 69 daytona.This letter was a club inquiry on the subject of a 70 daytona.Thank you very much for your recent inquiry regarding 70 dodge charger daytona.Im attaching a articlewritten in 1973.Which described quite a bit of the history of the daytona and as well as the plymouth superbird.
Heres the parts that I found odd
As you may know the original prototype daytona was built in 1969 and this was followed by (1500) (additional daytonas)( per year ) in 1969 and 1970.The very first daytona was donated to NASCAR and is in there museum of speed at daytona. I dont not recall the procduction of 3 special daytonas.And In fact I never owned one.I hope that information I have included will solve your puzzle.Signed by Bob Mc Curry
I have only heard of 2 Daytona's that had dealer installed A/C. One of them being a F5 green car, and I don't recall the color of the other one. Never heard of 4. Doesn't mean that there isn't 4 of them out there.
Just saw a Superbird with dealer installed A/C last year that was a survivor car, with 35,000 miles on it. Car had absolutely no other options on it, other than the dealer installed a/c.
The white A/C Daytona that was on eBay (twice?) looked really good for a car that had major surgery like A/C installation. Looking good and being functional are two different things though. I'd really think adding that much heat load to a car design already prone to overheating would have to be a problem. The V2 Daytona with added A/C (now owned by my friend Clayton) had been hacked to pieces up front to try and get enough air through the radiator and condensors.
Hello from Jack at wingcarfab.com. This is my first post so I hope I get it right. In reponse to the I need your car to fit a nose to it, only means that original Superbird fenders had lead added to the points that align with the nose cone top points. The amount of lead added to the fenders varied in height and width. Also I have documented original nose cone top width up to one half an inch. If you put these two variables together I could build a nose that you would be very dis-appointed with! I am dedicated to your satisfaction. I realize bring me your car may not be an option so I have started asking my customers have thier body person pre-fit the hood,doors, and fenders- set the desired gaps and give me a fender to fender point width. Then I can at least build the top of the cone to that width. Our nose sides are two pieces that may be let out or in to fit the top of the fender to the fender extention radius as that is variable as well. Hope this sheds light of your question. Thanks to all of you for supporting wingcarfab, Jack
www.wingcarfab.com
Welcome to the site Jack. Wish that I had even a tenth of your talent.
hi Jack
welcome to the site. i spoke to you on the phone some yrs back. when i was rounding up my parts for my replica . i ended up with a fiberglass nose that nothing fit correctly but it's finally together now. Rene :wave:
Hello Big block sam and hot rod 98, thanks for making me feel welcome. I have never carried on discussion threads before and so many of you know so much more than me about the wing cars I build parts for I feel humbled! :yesnod: The demand for our parts has been so great I have had to decease the restorations. This is where I wanted to be! Have some new Daytona parts available soon! Thanks to everyone, and would enjoy hearing from all of you that are wing car enthusiasts. Jack McGaughey
Welcome to the site, Jack! :wave:
Glad you chimed in, and you're welcome to give us your thoughts on repro parts (or anything else, for that matter) anytime.
What's on tap for future parts releases? :popcrn:
Hello HemiGeno, thanks for your welcome! I am working on Daytona valances, Daytona nosecones, and Daytona decklid caps and hinges. Please feel free to call me at the shop 770-277-8086. I'm sorry I'm getting a reputation for expensive parts, but they must be fitted to a car and meet my expectations. I never intended to have a kit! I just used my skills as a metal fabricator to build some parts someone needed. I love the wing cars since I was a senior in high school and the rich kid got a Plymouth Superbird for a graduation present. I still can't afford one of these cars for myself! I stay awake at night trying to improve and lower the cost of my parts. All of you guys input is important to me so please contact me, Sincerly, Jack McGaughey
Quote from: hotrod98 on August 26, 2007, 10:26:33 AM
Welcome to the site Jack. Wish that I had even a tenth of your talent.
Hello hot rod 98, I sincerely appreciate your comments! I'm watching you guys!!!! If you would like to work together let me know, Jack
Welcome to the site, Jack! I've watched your website for quite awhile now. Excellent work !
Hello Daytona RT/SE, thanks for your welcome if there is anything I can do for you please ask!!! Shop# 770-277-8086 Jack McGaughey
www.wingcarfab.com :yesnod:
Quote from: Jack@wingcarfab on August 26, 2007, 04:00:01 PM
Hello Daytona RT/SE, thanks for your welcome if there is anything I can do for you please ask!!! Shop# 770-277-8086 Jack McGaughey
www.wingcarfab.com :yesnod:
:2thumbs:
Jack, the work you due truly is incredible. When I do wind up with a wing car, and I do say "when" rather than if as I truly intend on having one in my lifetime. When I do get one, if I need any pieces for it I will definately be looking at getting some from you. I've seen 1 of your nose cones, for a Superbird, and it was incredible. Definately top notch work.
For now though the only part I see that would work on my car, is the shortened deck lid for a 500, and trunk hinges.
QuoteI truly intend on having one in my lifetime
me too i want a real superbird to match my daytona replica . not if but when i get my bird. :2thumbs:
:popcrn:
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, popcorn
Quote from: BigBlockSam on August 26, 2007, 08:50:51 PM
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, popcorn
Here you go rene :icon_smile_big:
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r79/shaggieshapiro/popcorn_10000.jpg)
:boogie:
HI Jack. Its ron out in calif. I have bought some parts from you and at the moment. Im working on getting the money together for your hood ext. And your making those superbird rear wing Small lower brackets for me. The ones that weld to the floor. IM glad your here now. Ive been a fan of you and your work for years as you know.. And thank you sooo vary much on helping my friend out on evaluating his z braces..Thats why i told him to send them to you to look at. Cause i knew you... would know if they were good or not. :) anyway. Nice to see ya bud. ron