DodgeCharger.com Forum

Sad statement of the times I guess ? when everybody wants a Stroker, "Bigger is Better" being the chorus from the masses, wherein a std inch 440 Engine is considered "Lowly" by many, and somehow seems lost in the irrelevant..... when answering to the question "What's it got " ?
Nonetheless,
I think they are a more than capable performer, and more than adequate for the average Street Guy, especially when you consider that this build, can easily power a B-Body Mopar into the 11's with a 4.10 Gear and 10" Convertor.....some "lowly" Engine indeed !

This is about as easy....and "basic" as it gets... to build.. what IMO, is a "decent 440". Easy on parts, Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam, good manners, and of course 91 octane pump gas.
We are targeting 500+ HP & 550 Ft/Lbs of Torque, I will of course as always, post up the final actual DYNO Sheet when completed, but first a synopsis of parts and labor operations, and a few Pics.

PARTS;
1978 440 Block, Bored .060"
ARP Main Studs
1970 440 Forged Crank
Clevitte Rod & Main Bearings
40 year old stock "ly" Connecting Rods(W/ARP Bolts)
Forged F.T. Pistons
5/64" Moly Ringpack(cheap)
Stealth Heads from 440 Source
CompCams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam
Johnson Hylift Lifters
Performer rpm Intake Manifold
850 Holley
440 Source; Rockers Arms, Hold-Downs, etc., Pushrods, Windage Tray, Head Bolts, 6 qt HEMI Pan & Pickup, Balancer, Dipstick, CompCams 10* Ret & Locks
Melling HV Pump & drive
Cloyes T/Chain & Gears
Mopar Performance V/Covers
Speed Pro O/H Gasket Set

LABOR:
* Block Machine Package, ( add: Beam Connecting Rods & re-Harden)
* Balance Complete
* New Cylinder Head "Prep for Service"
* "Street Port" Cylinder Heads
* Port Match Intake Manifold
* Assemble Engine
* Dyno Test & Tune Engine

(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/EngineStuffBeamsetc015_zps9d1132a0.jpg)
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/ShopNov2013002_zps464415a3.jpg)
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/ShopNov2013012_zps8cf32e42.jpg)
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/ShopNov2013014_zps92305498.jpg)
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/ShopNov2013015_zps5847fe8a.jpg)

interesting stuff  :cheers: :popcrn:

Don't know bout that bottom short block pic. That isn't the same block as the top one. Top one might be a '78 as it has the "Figure 8" cooling holes. The bottom pic is another block entirely. Looks good though.

i would love to build another 440 if i had one to start with & if it was a steel crank i would not stroke it for the build i am doing,but in my case i have a 400 block & a 383 still in the car & i like the low deck better for hood room and weight so i am doing the 4.25 stroke 4.375 bore low deck,the 440 you are building looks like a 425 hp engine to me at the most & please dont take offense to my post just my  :Twocents: i always enjoy your input on this web site & value what you say.

oh yea,, i REALLY like your charger!!!!!!!! 

Quote from: Cooter on December 08, 2013, 06:31:40 PM
Don't know bout that bottom short block pic. That isn't the same block as the top one. Top one might be a '78 as it has the "Figure 8" cooling holes. The bottom pic is another block entirely. Looks good though.

Yep, you're exactly right Cooter, SHARP Eye ya got there !
Wrong Pic, we're doing 2 of them(440's) the exact same shortblocks right now, one 1970 Block, the other a 1978, BOTH with the same parts list except for one gets the XE284H Cam,  and the other only a XE274H Cam.

I just took a Pic of the wrong Block ?
Here's the "correct" Pic of the 1978 Block short assembled, and the TWO together, the other(1970) Final Assembled.
Wasn't trying to mislead, just get really busy .....and I didn't distinguish between the two for "photo" purposes ?
Also, they are .060" over, NOT .040" !.... me bad !(and I ordered the damn parts)

Next up,
The Heads etc.(Stealths suck Balls !)
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/Dec122013Shop012_zps129a5699.jpg)
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/Dec122013Shop013_zps0a967d2a.jpg)

Quote from: cdr on December 08, 2013, 07:47:29 PM
i would love to build another 440 if i had one to start with & if it was a steel crank i would not stroke it for the build i am doing,but in my case i have a 400 block & a 383 still in the car & i like the low deck better for hood room and weight so i am doing the 4.25 stroke 4.375 bore low deck,the 440 you are building looks like a 425 hp engine to me at the most & please dont take offense to my post just my  :Twocents: i always enjoy your input on this web site & value what you say.

oh yea,, i REALLY like your charger!!!!!!!!  

Oh no offense taken at all !
Fact is..... I can already post up Dyno Sheets on others like this, probably DOZENS over the years that we've done in the past....and they ALL break 500 hp, so it's not like I can't tell my Customers ahead of time what to expect ?

I just like to "cover my ass" by saying 500hp....
then,
when they beat 500 on the Dyno they are usually very happy !
whereas....
if it was only 496hp they would be pissed !

I'll go dig out a few similar Dyno Sheets if you want ? but the 284 usually goes 515-525hp.

And THANKS, I really like the old Charger too......but it was a real battle convincing the wife that I "needed" it, ......AFTER..... I had already bought it in a big hurry without telling her ?
Being an old fart...well...a Guy could drop dead at anytime ?....so I had to PROVE to her it was worth every penny I paid, so that if I kick off.... she would have no problem selling it !

And this as an aside probably just means I'm an old guy too but I don't think of the std size 440 as lowly.  (or maybe I just encounter enough strokers around here  :icon_smile_wink: )

Nice prep job on the "stock" ly rods!

Quote from: heyoldguy on December 09, 2013, 09:28:50 AM
Nice prep job on the "stock" ly rods!

Thanks Jim..... I hadn't beamed a set of rods in probably 15 years !! LOL !  and probably never will ever again ?

Probably a waste of time for 55-5600rpm engines, however, it was a good opportunity for employee to "see" it done for training, as many have only heard about it in folklore ? .... to see & practise Flame and Surface Re-Hardening, section width selection etc. and see the time involved as to "why" it is NOT done anymore.

I didn't charge the Customer for it.....it's "training", so we just did it because to do so(charged for it), would have quickly outstripped the cost of just buying better Rods ?
I think Many still think I am NUTZ.... when I tell them we used to run LY's to 65-6800rpm "back in the day".... and with waaay heavier Pistons !
Nonetheless,
it's not Almen Method Steel Shot Peening by any means ....but as training, people still gets some valuable exposure the concepts of plasticity as opposed to abrasion, surface compression, and flame hardening, which they will probably never use again.... but will apply to fatigue stress recognition they can use later.
Many were pretty surprised at the Before & After "Dimple" hardness test..... ties it together for them.
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/EngineStuffBeamsetc004_zps2daeac4c.jpg)

Oh Well,
so much for the OOTB Stealths with our "regular" Prep for Service Job.... that didn't work out !

There were some negative Bowl & Seat Angles present we had to deal with, or try at least.
They Flowed close enough to advertised ootb(we always show lower on our Bench), but nonetheless we went ahead with a 6 hr "Prep For Service" charge on the Heads, which turned into 10 Hours ! by the time we got what we wanted (Lost my ass).
When I say a "prep for service".... what that entails is dis-assembly, check Guides, apply new Seat Angles, Grind & Back-Cut Valves, machine for better Seals(didn't do), Blend/Bowl Port and Gasket Match in past the pushrod pinch 1 inch, CC 1 each Head, Surface Heads, Wash, Lube & Assemble setting Spring Pressures for the intended Cam.
Usually, we find on the Eddy's that this is sufficient for substantial gains that we are happy with, but it  just didn't work out on this particular set of Stealths ?

For the 6 Hour Charge....we ended up spending 10 hours plus !
* We ended up doing a complete "Street Port" Job on the Stealths as best correction..... still stock port window though just "cleaned" all the way through the Port.
If we're gonna have some negative Bowl run-ups... we figured best have a Boundary layer of dead air against the wall further back in the Bowl as well.
* Flowed OK....I don't discuss Flow on the Internet..... FlowBenchs are NOT Dynomometers.... I prefer to let the 1/4 mile mph @ weight Vrs the Dyno Sheet do the talking, NOT that a FlowBench ain't a great Tool...IT IS !
* Pushrod relief for the 3/8" Pushrods ground in now ahead of installation.
* Seat Throats to 1.98", Edge of 2.14" Valve Seat Contact(Machine Cut), back-cut Valves
* Surfaced .020" to get down to 80cc's(were 83.4cc's), after new Angles applied, Intake Manifold Surfaces taken .025" to maintain bolt alignment.

Such is the Engine Business..... Best to have it leave as you want it, and EAT the time.... than NOT, and have an un-happy Customer ? especially when you Dyno everything ?
I think next time I'll just stay with the Eddy's on our 6-8hrs, or if Stealths are wanted by the Customer I'll go the 10-12 hrs... they just seem harder to us ? That, or if maybe we'd just gone ahead initially with this plan, it would have been quicker ? knowledge for next time...we just don't see Stealths that often ?

We'll get them assembled, and then on the Engine to take a "print" before doing the Intake Port Match, which is now a "freebie" because of the extra Head Time.

(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/Dec122013Shop001_zpsdc503d4d.jpg)
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/Dec122013Shop009_zps82861401.jpg)
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/Dec102013Shop003_zps10e150e1.jpg)
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/Dec102013Shop006_zpsf99f42bc.jpg)
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/Dec102013Shop007_zps081d059a.jpg)

out of the box my super stealths only flowed around 267,my bench reads low compared to most others also, an engine builder that i worked for years ago showed me a formula taking head flow with intake ,cam specs & compression to guesstimate hp ,it has  always been VERY close.  when i look at the desired hp, it tells me what i need for flow,but that is on my bench. i'm sure i'm not telling you something new. obviously you know what you are doing. just wanted to share with all.

Quote from: cdr on December 10, 2013, 04:44:21 PM
out of the box my super stealths only flowed around 267,my bench reads low compared to most others also, an engine builder that i worked for years ago showed me a formula taking head flow with intake ,cam specs & compression to guesstimate hp ,it has  always been VERY close.  when i look at the desired hp, it tells me what i need for flow,but that is on my bench. i'm sure i'm not telling you something new. obviously you know what you are doing. just wanted to share with all.

SHARING IS GREAT... I think that's why we're here...or hope so ? Thank YOU cdr  :2thumbs:

There were some GREAT formula's out there even back in the day longhand... LOL !
Then on to Computers, true wave factors.... not just fill & dump... etc., Dynomation.. etc.
About the best thing we found.... or learned somewhere I forget ?... was to then start and concentrate on "area under the curve" Flow versus Cam Lobe Lift Rates vrs Piston Movement(low pressure area)...and in true Dumb-Fawk Hillbilly fashion found out what did NOT work, then stumble drunken fashion the other way to find out what did work ???
Ever make a lazy head ?
I dunno if I am explaining this well ??
Like in the 80's when the Russians & Americans resumed talking to each other in the 80's... their space programs came up ?? the Americans vaunted their "zero gravity" Ball Point Pens they developed......the Russians, completely stunned when asked what they used .....replied.... "pencils" ??

Keep It Simple Stupid...because we are !  By "we" I mean me at my Shop ! NOT you.
Best method we found worked for us Porting Heads was to go in a FAWK IT UP.....then pretty easy to go in, weld it up...and figure out what it WILL LIKE ??
We are BUFFOONS compared to many...but we get by, so did Forrest Gump ?  

lol you sound like me,,i am from the school of hard knocks,YES i know what a lazy port is!!!! have made many  :brickwall: and spent lots  of time screwing up a perfectly good port.my passion is learning about the air pump we call an engine. i also think y'all know what your doing. :yesnod:

Nice work Bob  :2thumbs:

The headwork looks great....this bowls sure are purty.   :coolgleamA:

Those are pretty high-tech compared to my old 446.....that one had the same factory rods/pistons but was swinging the Speed pro 2355 6-pack slugs that weigh several hundred grams more than those fancy forged KB's  :eek2:  :lol:

I'm sure based on the headwork and cam profile your goals are easily achievable.  :cheers:



Ron

Thanks for posting.

Why the 4032 FHR pistons?

Looks like 10.6 ish CR assuming a 0.040" compression distance.  Do you think this will work with the 274 on pump near sea level?  I'm guessing it will be real close.

Your are crazy for doing those rods.  With the anticipated service of these motors and the 200 g. reduction on the end of the rod, I would run a LY rod resized with good bolts.   :Twocents:

thanks again

Quote from: BSB67 on December 11, 2013, 07:37:41 PM
Thanks for posting.

Why the 4032 FHR pistons?

Looks like 10.6 ish CR assuming a 0.040" compression distance.  Do you think this will work with the 274 on pump near sea level?  I'm guessing it will be real close.

Your are crazy for doing those rods.  With the anticipated service of these motors and the 200 g. reduction on the end of the rod, I would run a LY rod resized with good bolts.   :Twocents:

thanks again

We've had good luck with the ICON stuff, IMO they have really upped their game in the last few years, and some nice features like the accumulator chamber between the lands like the KB's, true Cam & Barrel Pin Boss structure, and very consistent sizings.... plus they seem inexpensive for the quality ?
The only thing I don't like are the tru-Arc locks they use.... makes no sense to me why KB's come with spirolox.... and the more expensive FHR Forging revert back to the tru-arcs ?
WISECO Pro-Tru we like as well.... but they weren't available at the time for the 2 sets we needed.

Came in at 10.4:1 Static, about 165psi within 1,000 miles around these parts(8.0:1DCR), and if he goes to Sea level rises to ~8.45DCR
which IMO,
based on my experience.... because we get to Dyno & Tune & Jet the Engine before it leaves ?? ...Which is a BIG Difference..... I don't sweat it at all with OK quench on 91 Octane, and I have never had a problem with a 440 either in the past, even slightly above 8.5 ?
(For those following along on this build, you might be better with the XE274 Cam... to leave the Heads closer to the 83cc mark ootb if you are NOT Dyno'ing ?
The 2nd 440 represented here ....will use the XE284 with a later Intake Closing Point(less DCR)

We don't usually "Beam" Rods anymore....haven't for many years now as the time-cost outweighs buying new?.... but this was a "training" excercise for a friend because he had never seen it done, nor Flame Hardening, Blast Surface Plasticity etc. etc.,... so we did it, and ate it time-wise .....so at least he has "seen it" for future background and reference, and I certainly have no problem with the LY Rods below 6K rpm on this type of build, especially as you said, with the lighter Forged Pistons.

I'm just sharing this for what it is.... "just our opinions", or rather.... how I do things ? maybe it will help somebody else ?... maybe not ?... the point being.... hopefully people get some "idea's".... maybe they can use to make their own builds better ?
on another note;
I've been hanging around DC.Com for many years now..... and if there is one thing that has IMPRESSED me on here.... more than many other Websites, is that for the most part..... what a bunch of really good people there seem to be here ? devoid of the usual Internet B.S. that seems to prevail elsewhere ?
Dunno if it's the Mods ? or whatever ? nonetheless THIS SITE seems to have gotten it right ! (IMO)

Thanks again.  I was referring the Icon 2618 forgings verses the 4032 FHRs.  I'm using the IC836's in my current "lowly" 440 street engine project.  So I'm curious as why the 4032s vs 2618s

I personally would try the 274 with 10.4 at 1100' ( elevation here) understanding that it would be close. But as you know, there are things you can do to help yourself out when you are near the edge.  Also,  I would be okay if I was wrong.   But for you, on the other hand, selling to a customer with unknown skills, and with likely little or no tolerance if it pings could be more bother than it is worth for a guy trying to make a buck.

Nothing against dynos, but I would be very interested in how either of these motors do in a street car at the track.

what kind of numbers do you think that motor would make without the stealth heads and with 906' s ? 470hp?

I'm thinking more along the lines of 550 hp plus. Even with that 'small' cam.

Quote from: BSB67 on December 12, 2013, 08:46:57 PM
Thanks again.  I was referring the Icon 2618 forgings verses the 4032 FHRs.  I'm using the IC836's in my current "lowly" 440 street engine project.  So I'm curious as why the 4032s vs 2618s

I personally would try the 274 with 10.4 at 1100' ( elevation here) understanding that it would be close. But as you know, there are things you can do to help yourself out when you are near the edge.  Also,  I would be okay if I was wrong.   But for you, on the other hand, selling to a customer with unknown skills, and with likely little or no tolerance if it pings could be more bother than it is worth for a guy trying to make a buck.

Nothing against dynos, but I would be very interested in how either of these motors do in a street car at the track.

My understanding of the difference between the 4032 vrs the 2618 Alloys is the Silicon content, the 4032 Forging being higher Silicon for added dimensional thermal stability from cold to hot and quieter running,.... the downfall being the extra silicon makes them "brittle", akin to the Hereutectic alloys in Cast Pistons so NO Nitrous or Blowers advised.
These being relatively in-expensive Street Engines(by our standards), with no boost or Steriods ever expected, full exhaust systems etc., and targeted sub-6K rpm for peak power.... the 4032's are fine in my books.

Just personal preference based on my experience, but I won't use any "DISHED" Pistons period, even one as small as the 6cc on the IC836.
The absolute BEST way to promote detonation, anywhere near the "edge" Compression wise, is put in a "dish" area.
IMO, 10.4 C.R. with a dish on the XE274 WILL definately detonate. 

The difference with being able to tune every Engine on the Dyno before it leaves... is that we can "see" what it's doing, what it wants, EGT's, A/F, Lambda, scfm, no guess work... the 10.4 C.R. with the XE274 is not an experiment for us on a Flat Top Piston, having done it many times successfully before.
I don't understand why a Customer.... having been present for the entire Dyno Day, and "seeing" for themselves what the BEST Tune was... and being supplied with THAT Data at the end of the day... that they are PAYING for... would ever digress as you say, with "Unknown Skills" and deviate from the Tune ??
Actually, it would make very little difference even being .2 C.R. lower.... if they are THAT stupid ?? because we build in a safety factor in the Final anyway.

We are lucky enough, having Dyno'd everything we do, to get to "see" the mph @ weight with customer feedback from those that go to the track.
E.T. can vary greatly due to the Car itself... but MPH attained at the Car Weight over the 1/4 mile... is a direct correlation in physics to our Dyno numbers. In that respect... the DYNO don't lie and we get justified !

Quote from: Cooter on December 13, 2013, 09:33:45 AM
I'm thinking more along the lines of 550 hp plus. Even with that 'small' cam.

There are currently 2 NON-Stroker 440 Engines here on the go Cooter, my apologies for any confusion.
And although the Shortblocks are virtually identical, one is using the XE274 Cam, the other is using the XE284, both Hydraulic Flat Tappets.
The other difference between the 2.... is XE284 Engine has Stealth Heads with a full "Street Port" done(the Pics),
the other,
has only a true "Bowl Cleanup" and "Gasket Match" done on the Stealths with the XE274 Cam.

The problem with the 2 pairs of Stealth Heads we received, was the one set had pretty piss poor Bowls requiring MORE WORK, hence the full "Street Port" the XE284 Engine got.

No matter, we'll get to test 2 "versions" of basically the same "Shortblock". Both are atill using the same Performer RPM Intake Manifolds & 850 cfm Carbs.
My guess is the XE274 Engine will struggle to 500hp, maybe slightly more... with 540 Ft/Lbs
The XE284 Engine will post 535hp but 565 Ft/lbs.

Stay tuned... should be fun
Bob.

Still though Bob, even with the lesser Stealth heads, its gotta be better flowing than a set of 'Cleaned up' iron heads right?

Quote from: Challenger340 on December 14, 2013, 07:20:28 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on December 12, 2013, 08:46:57 PM
Thanks again.  I was referring the Icon 2618 forgings verses the 4032 FHRs.  I'm using the IC836's in my current "lowly" 440 street engine project.  So I'm curious as why the 4032s vs 2618s

I personally would try the 274 with 10.4 at 1100' ( elevation here) understanding that it would be close. But as you know, there are things you can do to help yourself out when you are near the edge.  Also,  I would be okay if I was wrong.   But for you, on the other hand, selling to a customer with unknown skills, and with likely little or no tolerance if it pings could be more bother than it is worth for a guy trying to make a buck.

Nothing against dynos, but I would be very interested in how either of these motors do in a street car at the track.

My understanding of the difference between the 4032 vrs the 2618 Alloys is the Silicon content, the 4032 Forging being higher Silicon for added dimensional thermal stability from cold to hot and quieter running,.... the downfall being the extra silicon makes them "brittle", akin to the Hereutectic alloys in Cast Pistons so NO Nitrous or Blowers advised.
These being relatively in-expensive Street Engines(by our standards), with no boost or Steriods ever expected, full exhaust systems etc., and targeted sub-6K rpm for peak power.... the 4032's are fine in my books.

Just personal preference based on my experience, but I won't use any "DISHED" Pistons period, even one as small as the 6cc on the IC836.
The absolute BEST way to promote detonation, anywhere near the "edge" Compression wise, is put in a "dish" area.
IMO, 10.4 C.R. with a dish on the XE274 WILL definately detonate.  

I don't see how the D shaped dish would change anything as long as the you keep a 0.040" piston to head compression distance for quench/squish.  There was just a discussion about this on another forum.  Interestingly, the majority of the racers believed that it was better to split the volume between the head and piston dish verses a flat top and larger head volume.  

I did not realize you dyno tuned every engine.  Even with that, I have yet to see an engine dyno tune also be the best in-car tune.  Usually shops don't spend a bunch of time messing with timing curve, just set total, do pulls from 3500 to 6000, make a coupe of jet changes, done.  The engine see a lot of conditions in the car that are different than sitting in a dyno cell.   And, at the end of the day, most guys will twist the knobs once it is in the car anyways....even if it was perfect.  

The statement about the dynos comes from my experience that they never compare very well from one to another.  As you state, you probably have a good correlation between your dyno results and what cars with your motors in them actually run.  But that does not help for the rest of us.  So when people talk dyno numbers, it means very little to me, and I don't mean that to offend anyone.  I've just see this all the time.  Car mph, weight and atmospheric conditions is the data that I use and put in my database so the shop to shop variability is taken out.  Heck, change the dyno inertia setting, new hp numbers.  People seem to forget what a dyno is.

FWIW, 535 hp motor, as measured on the dyno that I use for my engines, will take a 3850 lb b-body to 118 mph on a 2000 ft DA day.  If that is the same as you get, I think that is very good performance from fairly mild hydraulic 440 motor. :2thumbs:

challenger340-Bob thanks for allot of great information, your always so helpful too...  :2thumbs: I always enjoy reading your cylinder head, porting & engine threads/posts or responces...

X2

  [/quote]

I don't see how the D shaped dish would change anything as long as the you keep a 0.040" piston to head compression distance for quench/squish.  There was just a discussion about this on another forum.  Interestingly, the majority of the racers believed that it was better to split the volume between the head and piston dish verses a flat top and larger head volume.
I believe everyone should do whatever they feel is best, obviously based upon their own experiences first & foremost, and only deviate when the predominance of evidence suggests otherwise. My only question would be.... do the majority of the "Racers" you mentioned on the other forum, Machine, Build & Dyno their own Racing "Dish" Piston Engines on Pump Gas ?? 

I did not realize you dyno tuned every engine.  Even with that, I have yet to see an engine dyno tune also be the best in-car tune.  Usually shops don't spend a bunch of time messing with timing curve, just set total, do pulls from 3500 to 6000, make a coupe of jet changes, done.  The engine see a lot of conditions in the car that are different than sitting in a dyno cell.   And, at the end of the day, most guys will twist the knobs once it is in the car anyways....even if it was perfect.
Every Street Engine we Dyno gets simulated "Highway Cruise" and low load up & down mid-range runs as Standard Practise. Like I said earlier, the Owners are present for the whole Dyno Day.... they SEE everything.... if they wish to deviate later, and are THAT stupid, it is afterall their Engine to do as they wish, but honestly, after a few hundred Engines in the last 8-10 years, I just haven't had, or heard of many problems ?   

The statement about the dynos comes from my experience that they never compare very well from one to another.  As you state, you probably have a good correlation between your dyno results and what cars with your motors in them actually run.  But that does not help for the rest of us.  So when people talk dyno numbers, it means very little to me, and I don't mean that to offend anyone.  I've just see this all the time.  Car mph, weight and atmospheric conditions is the data that I use and put in my database so the shop to shop variability is taken out.  Heck, change the dyno inertia setting, new hp numbers.  People seem to forget what a dyno is.
I think between a Superflow 902 to a Superflow 902 the numbers are fairly comparable ? And when they aren't.... one can certainly access the accompanying Data to look for whatever discrepancies may be present for the reason ?  All I know, is we can usually use even an old Moroso slide rule calculator and give pretty accurate mph estimates in the 1/4 mile based upon our Superflow 902 numbers, with da factor of course, because the majority of our guys run elevation tracks from 4600-5000 ft right down to sea level.
Change an "Inertia Setting" on a Superflow 902 ??????????????? WHAT inertia setting on the Superflow ??? 

FWIW, 535 hp motor, as measured on the dyno that I use for my engines, will take a 3850 lb b-body to 118 mph on a 2000 ft DA day.  If that is the same as you get, I think that is very good performance from fairly mild hydraulic 440 motor. :2thumbs:As you said, depends upon the D/A that day at the track, the majority we get feedback on is Edmonton, Ab, Canada.... where an Engine like this typically clocks anywhere(depending on the day)between 113-116 mph in a b-body, with E.T. dependant on the 60ft etc., but anywhere high 11's to mid 12's.
The best setup guys with a 10" Convertor, 4.10's and a 28-29" Tire that can get a 1.65-1.70 60 ft time can see 11.6-11.70's on a good day.


[/quote]

Quote from: Cooter on December 14, 2013, 07:43:52 PM
Still though Bob, even with the lesser Stealth heads, its gotta be better flowing than a set of 'Cleaned up' iron heads right?

Oh yeah for sure they Flow more than cleaned up Irons.... certainly more than any of OUR cleaned up Irons anyways ! so Happy :2thumbs:

Quote from: Ghoste on December 15, 2013, 10:11:18 AM
X2

X3   :cheers: :cheers:

thanks for sharing this stuff  :popcrn:

do the majority of the "Racers" you mentioned on the other forum, Machine, Build & Dyno their own Racing "Dish" Piston Engines on Pump Gas ??
Yes.  It was a mixed bag of techies, racers and builders, and really only opinions were given.


I think between a Superflow 902 to a Superflow 902 the numbers are fairly comparable ? And when they aren't.... one can certainly access the accompanying Data to look for whatever discrepancies may be present for the reason ?  All I know, is we can usually use even an old Moroso slide rule calculator and give pretty accurate mph estimates in the 1/4 mile based upon our Superflow 902 numbers, with da factor of course, because the majority of our guys run elevation tracks from 4600-5000 ft right down to sea level.
Change an "Inertia Setting" on a Superflow 902 HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh WHAT inertia setting on the Superflow Huh  None on a Superflow.  Just an illustration of things in an operator's control on some dynos, and there are many variables.  Certainly, as you stated, control all of the variables the same, and certainly 902 to 902 will repeat nicely.   But anyone that has been around this stuff will tell of one shop's dyno being high, or someone's else's being conservative (nobody ever says low).  And, it is not dyno make specific.  FWIW, I believe that Westech dyno was reading 9% higher than Impastato's during Engine Masters and they were both 902's.  Again, my point is that the only performance numbers that really matter are acquired at the track.  My Moroso Power Speed Calculator is sitting at arms length from my computer and that's I how I equalize the hp from track data (with correction for DA).   This was not intended to be distraction from your excellent  post/thread turned into a discussion about dynos.    

....Edmonton, Ab, Canada.... where an Engine like this typically clocks anywhere(depending on the day)between 113-116 mph in a b-body,.... Now that means way more to me than the dyno numbers.  Those are very good numbers.  I suspect that your DA is typically in the 2000 to 4500 range.  I know full well what it takes to get a true street car to run 115 mph.  There are a lot of guys that think they have 500 hp and cannot run those numbers.  I suspect that there are some that think they want 600 hp, but would be happy with the performance of a car running 115 mph.


I really appreciate you sharing this post.  I agree that in this day of $600 stroker cranks and the 500 cu in standard, most enthusiasts don't realize they can get what they need from a standard stroke 440.  

Good discussion  :2thumbs:

On the topic of track mph vs dyno numbers ; the old 446 typically ran high 11.80's @115 with a 4100 raceweight. Best ever was a 11.68@ 116.5 on a mineshaft (-800 da)  late fall track day. Certainly not "typical" race conditions...but i'll take it   ;) That combo made 535hp/540 tq on Dwayne's dyno. Shifted at 6k and went through the traps at 5700. It really needed a set of 4.56's & another 500 rpm of stall for best ET but it is just a street car, afterall  :icon_smile_big:

Bob, those are great results your customers are achieving with those limitations and raceweight. I would say your numbers are spot on and you're getting it done with nothing too exotic. Just solid machinework, intelligent parts selection and attention to detail.  :icon_smile_cool:



Ron

Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 16, 2013, 09:25:20 AM
Good discussion  :2thumbs:

On the topic of track mph vs dyno numbers ; the old 446 typically ran high 11.80's @115 with a 4100 raceweight. Best ever was a 11.68@ 116.5 on a mineshaft (-800 da)  late fall track day. Certainly not "typical" race conditions...but i'll take it   ;) That combo made 535hp/540 tq on Dwayne's dyno. Shifted at 6k and went through the traps at 5700. It really needed a set of 4.56's & another 500 rpm of stall for best ET but it is just a street car, afterall  :icon_smile_big:

Bob, those are great results your customers are achieving with those limitations and raceweight. I would say your numbers are spot on and you're getting it done with nothing too exotic. Just solid machinework, intelligent parts selection and attention to detail.  :icon_smile_cool:



Ron

yep X2

For what it's worth, these are similar to my 440 in my 71. 448ci zero deck short block with K1 rods and SRP pistons - 6cc reliefs, 84cc eddy heads and a Xe275hl. 180 psi cranking. I run it on 93 with no detonation at sea level, regular plug inspection, tuned on a in car wide band. I have run it on 91 with good results albeit not in 90 degree plus weather.

OK, so the first of the first of the two "lowly 440" Engines was Dyno'd yesterday.
For a quick recap here....
we had TWO virtually identical 440 Shortblocks going together, both using the 440 Source "Stealth" Aluminum Heads and Performer RPM dual-plane Intake Manifolds with 850cfm Holley Carbs.

Both these engines are using Hemi Orange painted Heads & Intakes to maintain the "stockish" appearance to a casual glance once installed, the only special note..... should be to hood clearance with the Performer rpm Intakes to Hood clearance ? Although re-op resto Air Cleaners are now readily available to complete the installation with no grief.

The main differences between the 2 Engines being;
* one Engine is using aXE274H CompCams Flat Tappet Hydraulic Cam, and just a Seat Prep/Bowl Port/Gasket match being applied to the Stealth Heads
and,
* the 2nd Engine is using a XE284H CompCams Flat Tappet Hydraulic Cam, with a full "street" Port Job on the Stealths, and an Intake Manifold Port Match applied to the Edelbrock Intake.

2 HP "versions" of basically the same 440 Non-Stroker parts combo

This is the First lower HP Engine with the XE274
It should be considered a good "driver" type combo for people who want to leave it in "D", let the auto upshift by itself around 5,000 rpm, good vacuum for powerbrakes 13" @ 900rpm, with really what amounts to is a "just off" a smooth Idle, a real musclecar type good idle quality.
I really feel even a plentiful and cheap "Cast Crank" Core could be applied for this combo easily.

440 Block .060" over
Stock "ly" Rods with ARP Bolts(we beamed ours, but not required at these rpm's)
Forged Steel Crank(Cast Crank would be fine also)
Forged FT Pistons
5/16" Moly Rings
Windage Tray
6 qt Hemi Pan
Original Stealth Heads(10* retainer/Lock upgrade), Bowl Port & Gasket Match, 4 Angle seats & 75* Throat Cut, Milled to 80 cc for 10.4 C.R.
440 Source Rockers Arms/Pushrods
Cloyes T/Chain & gears
HV Melling Pump
HP Mechanical F/Pump
850 cfm Holley Carb
Stock Mopar Electronic Distributor
Mopar Orange Box Ignition
Costco Premium Fuel

A complete Block Machining Package was performed, including Crank Re-Grind, Rod Resizing, Bore & Hone W/Torque Plate, Pin-Fitting, Block Square Milling, and Main Align Honing, Cam Brg & Frost Plugs, yada, yada, a "good Practise" type rebuild.

486HP @ 5,000 rpm, but with 554 Ft/Lbs Torque @ 3,500 rpm, although bound to be HIGHER even lower.
The small Cam runs into a WALL right around 5K rpm.....
but
This thing could use an inexpensive 22-2600 rpm Convertor with the smooth idle and literally pull stumps !
Again,
this is the XE274 version, I get the other one up next week.
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/IMG_zps0642a204.jpg)

That is a very nice engine, well done.

Really cool build! I like stuff that looks stock with maybe a few parts store add ons but performs way better.

It cracks me up to read "Costco Premium fuel". Isn't that a contradiction? Not knocking the fuel - it's just the idea of buying "premium" anything at a "discount" store. A guy I work with buys literally everything (including his new Mustang) through Costco.

Troy

Quote from: heyoldguy on January 08, 2014, 03:09:20 PM
That is a very nice engine, well done.

X2 thanks for posting that Challenger340, very interesting

Bob,

The Tq numbers are fantastic for such a mild build.  :2thumbs: I'm sure your customer is going to be quite pleased with the power and street manners of this combo. Very nice numbers  :icon_smile_big:



Ron

Very nice.  Those are good power numbers.

So, do you think that it is appropriate that the cam is giving up that much that early (rpm wise) or do you think something else could be at play?  Did you run it past 5300?  Although they seem to be everyone's favorite, there are a couple builders that I know that are very leery of the CC HL cam profiles, due to the large drop in power in the mid 5000 rpm range.  They tried more spring pressure and it got worse.  The conclusion was that oil pressure, oil viscosity, and lifter tolerances can result in giving it up early.  One guy, for fun, put in some solid lifters and it added several hundred usable rpm, and pulled over 6000.  I'm pretty sure he was testing the 275 HL.

I also noticed on Yellowbullet some of the cam guys are now recommending that fast rate hydraulic cam lifters be adjusted to depress the plungers almost to the bottom of full cup travel, leaving 0.010" of travel or less and then adding enough spring as to not worry about float/pump-up.  

What are your thoughts?

Again, thanks for posting.

We are testing the XE285HL with solid lifters tomorrow morning.

Quote from: BSB67 on January 10, 2014, 08:00:16 PM
Very nice.  Those are good power numbers.

So, do you think that it is appropriate that the cam is giving up that much that early (rpm wise) or do you think something else could be at play?  Did you run it past 5300?  Although they seem to be everyone's favorite, there are a couple builders that I know that are very leery of the CC HL cam profiles, due to the large drop in power in the mid 5000 rpm range.  They tried more spring pressure and it got worse.  The conclusion was that oil pressure, oil viscosity, and lifter tolerances can result in giving it up early.  One guy, for fun, put in some solid lifters and it added several hundred usable rpm, and pulled over 6000.  I'm pretty sure he was testing the 275 HL.

I also noticed on Yellowbullet some of the cam guys are now recommending that fast rate hydraulic cam lifters be adjusted to depress the plungers almost to the bottom of full cup travel, leaving 0.010" of travel or less and then adding enough spring as to not worry about float/pump-up.  

What are your thoughts?

Again, thanks for posting.

No, it is the Cam, we've seen it before. The 274 drops off quickly past 52-300rpm on this type of build, but again, it is a setup the kick-down linkage and leave it in "D" type Engine. It doesn't matter if it lugs a bit, we loaded it lower... still fine, as it will just pull the 11" Convertor and go. No detonation whatsoever.
I think all Hydraulics drop off early, not just CC stuff, as we've also seen far bigger Lunati's that weren't good to 6K either ?

Solid Lifters always seem to add a few hundred rpm to Hydraulics ?
I have no experience really.... as far as bottoming a Hydraulic Lifter, or close to it ? What's the point ? Might as well just put Solids on the Hyd shaft at that point ?

Quote from: heyoldguy on January 10, 2014, 09:49:30 PM
We are testing the XE285HL with solid lifters tomorrow morning.

That will be interesting Jim... be sure and keep us posted :2thumbs:

Are you going to take it right down to about .006" Hot Lash ?

Quote from: Challenger340 on January 11, 2014, 05:32:43 PM


No, it is the Cam, we've seen it before. The 274 drops off quickly past 52-300rpm on this type of build, but again, it is a setup the kick-down linkage and leave it in "D" type Engine. It doesn't matter if it lugs a bit, we loaded it lower... still fine, as it will just pull the 11" Convertor and go. No detonation whatsoever.
I think all Hydraulics drop off early, not just CC stuff, as we've also seen far bigger Lunati's that weren't good to 6K either ?

Solid Lifters always seem to add a few hundred rpm to Hydraulics ?
I have no experience really.... as far as bottoming a Hydraulic Lifter, or close to it ? What's the point ? Might as well just put Solids on the Hyd shaft at that point ?

Right.  But worth it for those that want the performance.  And of course, if it does bottom out, just think how much one might be giving up if it is adjusted at the top.

Quote from: BSB67 on January 11, 2014, 07:52:53 PM

Quote from: Challenger340 on January 11, 2014, 05:32:43 PM


No, it is the Cam, we've seen it before. The 274 drops off quickly past 52-300rpm on this type of build, but again, it is a setup the kick-down linkage and leave it in "D" type Engine. It doesn't matter if it lugs a bit, we loaded it lower... still fine, as it will just pull the 11" Convertor and go. No detonation whatsoever.
I think all Hydraulics drop off early, not just CC stuff, as we've also seen far bigger Lunati's that weren't good to 6K either ?

Solid Lifters always seem to add a few hundred rpm to Hydraulics ?
I have no experience really.... as far as bottoming a Hydraulic Lifter, or close to it ? What's the point ? Might as well just put Solids on the Hyd shaft at that point ?

Right.  But worth it for those that want the performance.  And of course, if it does bottom out, just think how much one might be giving up if it is adjusted at the top.

A little off topic here....
but related to your earlier post, and why guys then go with Hydraulic Rollers in BB Mopars ? thinking they are the be-all end-all ?
Same problems as far as I am concerned, trying to maintain the Lifter Plunger with Oil Pressure against increased Valve Spring and Cam Rates ?

I haven't revisited HR's in BB Mopars for a few years now.... and really I can't see any reason to do so again ?
Because,
the root problem was controlling variances in Lifter Bore clearance on 40 yr old blocks and Oil Pressure to maintain the Plunger at rpm ?
which is hard enough to do.....
just on Flat Tappet Cams ? little-lown with HR increased Lobe Rates and Spring Pressures ?

IMO, and as far as I am concerned... Hydraulic Roller Cams in 40 yr old BB Mopar Blocks ? is a waste of time & Money without Bushing the Lifter Bores !
Which nowadays,
as soon as I tell my customers to add $1,000 for me to Bush the lifter Bores(I have the Mill Tooling to do it here), and dig out the old Dyno Sheets showing absolute POO without it ! ..... most then opt for a "Street" Mechanical Roller.... IF they just have to have a "Roller" ?

I often wonder how many guys are out there..... running BB Mopars with HR Cams ? shifting them at the rpm the "catalog" said.... thinking they are really moving ? or even those that DO hit a chassis Dyno... trying to tune AROUND the rpm problems ?
IMO,
The words "Hydraulic"..... and "Camshaft" should not be together in ANYTHING related to Performance.... Flat Tappet or Roller !
just my opinion... no wars wanted

Wonder why I can build a H roller cammed 331 Ford fox body and shift ut at 7000 rpms with the Stock lifters, but can't spend triple the money on a  Mopar 440 and can't seem to get the same rpm???

Quote from: Challenger340 on January 12, 2014, 02:29:31 PM

Quote from: BSB67 on January 11, 2014, 07:52:53 PM

Quote from: Challenger340 on January 11, 2014, 05:32:43 PM


No, it is the Cam, we've seen it before. The 274 drops off quickly past 52-300rpm on this type of build, but again, it is a setup the kick-down linkage and leave it in "D" type Engine. It doesn't matter if it lugs a bit, we loaded it lower... still fine, as it will just pull the 11" Convertor and go. No detonation whatsoever.
I think all Hydraulics drop off early, not just CC stuff, as we've also seen far bigger Lunati's that weren't good to 6K either ?

Solid Lifters always seem to add a few hundred rpm to Hydraulics ?
I have no experience really.... as far as bottoming a Hydraulic Lifter, or close to it ? What's the point ? Might as well just put Solids on the Hyd shaft at that point ?

Right.  But worth it for those that want the performance.  And of course, if it does bottom out, just think how much one might be giving up if it is adjusted at the top.

A little off topic here....
but related to your earlier post, and why guys then go with Hydraulic Rollers in BB Mopars ? thinking they are the be-all end-all ?
Same problems as far as I am concerned, trying to maintain the Lifter Plunger with Oil Pressure against increased Valve Spring and Cam Rates ?

I haven't revisited HR's in BB Mopars for a few years now.... and really I can't see any reason to do so again ?
Because,
the root problem was controlling variances in Lifter Bore clearance on 40 yr old blocks and Oil Pressure to maintain the Plunger at rpm ?
which is hard enough to do.....
just on Flat Tappet Cams ? little-lown with HR increased Lobe Rates and Spring Pressures ?

IMO, and as far as I am concerned... Hydraulic Roller Cams in 40 yr old BB Mopar Blocks ? is a waste of time & Money without Bushing the Lifter Bores !
Which nowadays,
as soon as I tell my customers to add $1,000 for me to Bush the lifter Bores(I have the Mill Tooling to do it here), and dig out the old Dyno Sheets showing absolute POO without it ! ..... most then opt for a "Street" Mechanical Roller.... IF they just have to have a "Roller" ?

I often wonder how many guys are out there..... running BB Mopars with HR Cams ? shifting them at the rpm the "catalog" said.... thinking they are really moving ? or even those that DO hit a chassis Dyno... trying to tune AROUND the rpm problems ?
IMO,
The words "Hydraulic"..... and "Camshaft" should not be together in ANYTHING related to Performance.... Flat Tappet or Roller !
just my opinion... no wars wanted

Yeah, I generally agree.  For a regular Joe, stick with the Hydraulic FT, and if he wants to step it up a bit, go to the Solid FT.  From there, solid roller.  The hydraulic roller can be in there too, but like you said, why bother.  The "hydraulic" part of the hydraulic lifter, whether it is flat tappet or roller, is still the weak link.  With that said, there are guys getting big rpm and big power out of hydraulic rollers, but they are not regular Joe's.  I think either Budnicks or heyoldguy have done it.  :shruggy:

Yeah, but the ones that are doing crazy stupid unheard of sh*t wanna play that SNS game...

Quote from: Cooter on January 12, 2014, 05:22:20 PM
Wonder why I can build a H roller cammed 331 Ford fox body and shift ut at 7000 rpms with the Stock lifters, but can't spend triple the money on a  Mopar 440 and can't seem to get the same rpm???

yep, I know.... and confounds the shiat outa me too ?
I personally haven't see any HR's that were stable at 7,000 rpm, but I have run myself a 347 Ford to 6,200rpm that was fine, and it didn't break down really bad until 6,500rpm.
Again,
I think it's strictly related to better oiling control on the lifter ? and with the sb Ford them going with a higher Lifter Casting Boss on the later HR Blocks.
I dunno if the earlier Ford non-HR Blocks that are retro-fit.... enjoy the same rpm capabilities ?

I am not scared to run the HR's in a BB Mopar, NOT a problem... as long as the Customer doesn't mind PAYING me to Bush the Lifter Bores ? I WOULD like to PAY for my tooling I bought some day after-all ?
It's just that without Bushing the Bores.... my past endeavours with HR's in the BB Mopars was not gratifying ?

So if I'm pickin up on your beat, lifter bushings should extend the bores causing a more high rpm stability?

Quote from: Cooter on January 13, 2014, 07:12:06 PM
So if I'm pickin up on your beat, lifter bushings should extend the bores causing a more high rpm stability?

With a BB Mopar ?
More to do with Lifter "Clearance", and controlling the "leakage" out, and around the Lifter Body..... in the 40 year Blocks old sloppy Lifter Bores... with the HUGE Oil Gallery exposure ?  
IMO, Lousy Lifter Body Clearance for such a "short" Lifter Bore, and a BIG hole ?
barely adequate for Flat tappets with far less Ramps & Spring rates than HR's ?

I think that's the benefit to Bushing in maintaining rpm stability, controlling Lifter Bleed down and pump up ?

Interesting to note here...
When Ford went HR, they also lengthened the Lifter Casting Boss in the Blocks... ostensibly for Base Circle reasons ?... but I wonder if there wasn't also a leakage factor for a given production lifter clearance they were hedging against ? I dunno ?
All I do know... is Fords run HR's just fine !
and,
I must be doing it wrong... because I can't get one to run in a BB Mopar without bushing the Lifter Bores, and even then..... I wasn't impressed when comparing the Time & MONEY.... for the very little extra power averages ?

Quote from: Cooter on January 13, 2014, 07:12:06 PM
So if I'm pickin up on your beat, lifter bushings should extend the bores causing a more high rpm stability?

The valve train weight and lobe profile and quality lifter are key.

OK,
Dyno'd the 2nd lowly 440 yesterday.
Virtually Identical Shortblock

However,
* This one uses the CompCams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam, .507"/.510"Lift, easy on parts.
* The better fully Street Ported Stealth Heads
* A port-matched Performer RPM Intake Manifold.

545 HP @ 5500 rpm
562 Ft/Lbs of Torque @ 3500 rpm

Lots of vacuum for power brakes.
Had to fix a sticky Oil Pump relief valve later on(gained hp later to just under 560 @ 5700), but I'll leave that later Dyno sheet, until I get photos up on the Headwork done on this one.

Not too Bad for a Flat Tappet Hydraulic Cam at .510" lift ?
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/IMG_0001_zpsc5485342.jpg)

 :2thumbs:  Thanks for posting the results

Not too bad? I'd say that is very, very good. I hope we can approach those numbers when we go the the EZ heads and 10.4:1 compression.

Quote from: heyoldguy on January 15, 2014, 09:32:27 PM
Not too bad? I'd say that is very, very good. I hope we can approach those numbers when we go the the EZ heads and 10.4:1 compression.

LOL !
Something tells me.... I don't think YOU will have much problem "approaching" those numbers with the INDY EZ Heads ? and 10.4 ? more like leaving these numbers far behind like a faint spec in the rearview ?

Gotta LUV them INDY EZ Heads !!

So what's the 411 on Steaths now?
good?
Need reworking still?
Out the box?
Castings porous still?

Thanks for posting!  The more of these 440 builds I read the less I think about a stroker.  560+ ftlbs of torque would be plenty scarey enough in my 4100lb '66.  Very impressive!

Quote from: Cooter on January 16, 2014, 10:33:04 PM
So what's the 411 on Steaths now?
good?
Need reworking still?
Out the box?
Castings porous still?

IMO,
The Stealth Heads biggest claim to fame, is indeed their factory "Stock" external appearance once painted, for those looking wishing to hide the aluminum/aftermarket Head.
OOTB,
both sets we received had negative longside Bowl transitions to the seat, the worst 2 individual Heads we then reworked with Porting and better Seat prep, with a 1.98" seat I.D. to correct(284 cam Engine)
the 2nd pair then.... only treated too seat prep on the stock I.D. leaving the "dip" in the longside wall above the seat, and then just a bowl and Intake opening clean(274 Cam Engine).

* No excessive casting porosity was found.
* OOTB Machining & Assembly, Guide Clearance, Seat Prep, etc., was otherwise satisfactory for Street Engine use.
* OOTB Flows approached 260 cfm @ .550"
In our opinion only
The Stealths should only be considered for OOTB configuration useage in sub-500hp applications
and for 500 Plus HP applications
substantial reworking should be undertaken a competent Shop, and Budgeted for in the initial purchase.

No wars wanted, just our opinion.

Nice Head for the money.... just don't anybody go kidding themselves, that they are going to install basically OOTB Stealths on a Stroker, add a Cam and make great Power ? FORGET IT... wasting your time.

Quote from: Challenger340 on January 18, 2014, 01:33:36 PM

Quote from: Cooter on January 16, 2014, 10:33:04 PM
So what's the 411 on Steaths now?
good?
Need reworking still?
Out the box?
Castings porous still?

IMO,
The Stealth Heads biggest claim to fame, is indeed their factory "Stock" external appearance once painted, for those looking wishing to hide the aluminum/aftermarket Head.
OOTB,
both sets we received had negative longside Bowl transitions to the seat, the worst 2 individual Heads we then reworked with Porting and better Seat prep, with a 1.98" seat I.D. to correct(284 cam Engine)
the 2nd pair then.... only treated too seat prep on the stock I.D. leaving the "dip" in the longside wall above the seat, and then just a bowl and Intake opening clean(274 Cam Engine).

* No excessive casting porosity was found.
* OOTB Machining & Assembly, Guide Clearance, Seat Prep, etc., was otherwise satisfactory for Street Engine use.
* OOTB Flows approached 260 cfm @ .550"
In our opinion only
The Stealths should only be considered for OOTB configuration useage in sub-500hp applications
and for 500 Plus HP applications
substantial reworking should be undertaken a competent Shop, and Budgeted for in the initial purchase.

No wars wanted, just our opinion.

Nice Head for the money.... just don't anybody go kidding themselves, that they are going to install basically OOTB Stealths on a Stroker, add a Cam and make great Power ? FORGET IT... wasting your time.

:iagree: The Stealths OTTB are a 500hp head on a pump gas street build....no matter what the displacement is. It's stricly a matter of cylinder head flow and the Stealths are a bit weak out of the box as compared to an Edelbrock or Indy EZ.

A few years back MFR426 (Mike) built a mild hyd cam 500in motor with non-ported stealth heads. It made 510hp/590tq. A set of unported RPM's would have upped the power another 40-50Hp and made more torque as well.  :yesnod:
 
Mike's build with dyno results at Ray Barton's shop :

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,43911.0.html

When you compare the power numbers it becomes obvious why Pro's like Bob can make a big difference in power output with a little handywork on the die grinder.   :2thumbs:


Ron


Ps. Bob, those are very nice numbers on the second budget 440 as well. Peak tq @3500 is gonna be lots of fun on the street. A nice 10in converter and he'll be flyin  :icon_smile_big:

Thank you gentlemen for the info. Very good to know. Was thinking bout a set of Stealths and like myself, a good ole straight up answer is what I got.

I should add here, and subsequent to my last post, that I would agree with Ron(Firefighter3931),
that we too believe....
the Edelbrock RPM Head "OOTB" is a superior, and has more power potential in OOTB form than the Stealths, based upon our Flow Data on both.

We are only one Flowbench... but I am thinking the Eddy's are 20-40hp better based upon the application "OOTB".

Don't have no high dollar flow bench, but I'm thinking once CNC ported, the Stealth 'could' support??
Maybe 600-700hp?(stroker)

A cnc ported Stealth shouldn't have any problem with 640-660 HP on a 4.15 stroke pump gas engine. A very good set of Stealths can go 750 HP on a pump gas 451.

Just a quick question because it seems relevant to the discussion...

How much would a guy lose with iron heads with the same work done to them on the same build? Closed or open chamber. It might help guys who are on the fence about going with aluminum.

Troy

Quote from: Troy on January 20, 2014, 10:38:16 AM
Just a quick question because it seems relevant to the discussion...

How much would a guy lose with iron heads with the same work done to them on the same build? Closed or open chamber. It might help guys who are on the fence about going with aluminum.

Troy

That is a really good question Troy, and I think I have the answer in another Dyno Sheet ? but I will have to go find it and get it up here.
We did a "resto" style 440-6 pack just awhile back, that might be a good comparison as it used the same 274 CompCam, but similar Head Cleanup Prep etc. on the 906 Castings, albeit stock 2.08"/1.74" Valves.
We tested through the Iron HP Manifolds and 2 1/4" pipes though ? ..... seems to me if I recall correctly 445HP and 515 Trq ?
Stay Tuned... I'll find it.

Quote from: Challenger340 on January 20, 2014, 11:02:33 AM

Quote from: Troy on January 20, 2014, 10:38:16 AM
Just a quick question because it seems relevant to the discussion...

How much would a guy lose with iron heads with the same work done to them on the same build? Closed or open chamber. It might help guys who are on the fence about going with aluminum.

Troy

That is a really good question Troy, and I think I have the answer in another Dyno Sheet ? but I will have to go find it and get it up here.
We did a "resto" style 440-6 pack just awhile back, that might be a good comparison as it used the same 274 CompCam, but similar Head Cleanup Prep etc. on the 906 Castings, albeit stock 2.08"/1.74" Valves.
We tested through the Iron HP Manifolds and 2 1/4" pipes though ? ..... seems to me if I recall correctly 445HP and 515 Trq ?
Stay Tuned... I'll find it.

Cool! I forgot to look to see if a "stock" type build had been previously posted. I know guys will say that it costs the same to bolt on a set of untouched Edelbrocks (probably Stealth too) as it does a set of ported iron heads and you end up with more power. Just looking for more of a same-same comparison (ported vs ported). I'm more than happy with 500 HP on the street - especially if it looks stock with power brakes and runs on pump gas (without having to constantly mess with it).

Troy

Very good reading and great info, you say the 284 cam had enough vacuum for brakes, what did it pull? I am considering swapping out my 275 for a 284 cam along with some steeper gears and gear vendors. I seem to recall that you are not a fan of the HL/XE series, can you tell us why?

Quote from: justcruisin on January 20, 2014, 02:02:25 PM
Very good reading and great info, you say the 284 cam had enough vacuum for brakes, what did it pull? I am considering swapping out my 275 for a 284 cam along with some steeper gears and gear vendors. I seem to recall that you are not a fan of the HL/XE series, can you tell us why?

I think the XE284 pulled around 13"@ 900 rpm, which I think is fine for power brakes given an Engine like this will have an 11" or Tight 10" Convertor behind it ?

Nah, the HL Cams we tried didn't work for us... BUT, that doesn't mean they are no good ?....we were using them as swap Cams in Engines with unknown Head Flow... so no data or real reason to dismiss them ? and certainly not fair for me to diss them in any way... probably fine Cams in the right application.

As for the Comp XE Cams, we've used them lots, proven results, they work well for us when we know what we want to achieve, so we keep using them.
No point in us re-inventing the wheel with Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cams... because... we just don't do enough Flat Tappet Hydraulic Cam Engines to worry about it ? We have a "known"... easy on parts / lifters / and bleed down on the Johnsons with 120# seats and sub 300# nose.
NOT saying there aren't "better" F.T. Hydraulics out there... there PROBABLY IS.... just we have no time to find out.

just a suggestion here....
maybe pm Firefighter3931(Ron) on this Site ? He is far more current with Hydraulic Cams than I am ? and he has lots of valuable knowledge/feedback particularily on the Lunati stuff in different combos ?
He can probably tell you exactly what to expect with a Lunati Cam versus a given CompCam.
just saying... that's who I WOULD BE ASKING ?

Quote from: Troy on January 20, 2014, 01:14:23 PM

Quote from: Challenger340 on January 20, 2014, 11:02:33 AM

Quote from: Troy on January 20, 2014, 10:38:16 AM
Just a quick question because it seems relevant to the discussion...

How much would a guy lose with iron heads with the same work done to them on the same build? Closed or open chamber. It might help guys who are on the fence about going with aluminum.

Troy

That is a really good question Troy, and I think I have the answer in another Dyno Sheet ? but I will have to go find it and get it up here.
We did a "resto" style 440-6 pack just awhile back, that might be a good comparison as it used the same 274 CompCam, but similar Head Cleanup Prep etc. on the 906 Castings, albeit stock 2.08"/1.74" Valves.
We tested through the Iron HP Manifolds and 2 1/4" pipes though ? ..... seems to me if I recall correctly 445HP and 515 Trq ?
Stay Tuned... I'll find it.

Cool! I forgot to look to see if a "stock" type build had been previously posted. I know guys will say that it costs the same to bolt on a set of untouched Edelbrocks (probably Stealth too) as it does a set of ported iron heads and you end up with more power. Just looking for more of a same-same comparison (ported vs ported). I'm more than happy with 500 HP on the street - especially if it looks stock with power brakes and runs on pump gas (without having to constantly mess with it).

Troy

I'll have to get in the 'puter and dig for that 6-pack sheet Troy.... stay tuned as we're really busy right now.
personally,
I DO think the Stealths OOTB with minimal work, and a bigger Cam like the XE284 instead of the XE 274, would probably get the 500 HP, WITH the ability to paint them and play "stock" sleeper.
And really,
that XE 274 Engine, probably would have got to 500HP(others have) if not for the piss-poor longside wall in THOSE Castings as delivered ootb.
We did NOT fix the XE274 Engines Heads with Porting, like we did on the XE284 Engine, and I know it hurt it  badly on the Dyno with the smaller Cam.

So if I was going to buy a set of aluminum heads and bolt them on and go I would benefit from the edelbrock RPM's rather than buy a set of stealth heads and then have to have work done on them and I would have to find someone who would know what they were doing too. Not alot of mopar fans where I live but if it were a chevy it would be different!! Wouldn't I have to swap in the recommended valve springs for a XE284 comp cam on the RPM heads? The 600 lift springs seem like they would be too much for my 510 lift cam. What would your thoughts be on a set of iron open chamber heads with the 214/181 valves and minor porting done compared to the stealth or RPM heads?? I would hate to spend $1500 and not notice any difference in the performance of the engine. Love these numbers on these stock stroked 440's!!! I have a spare 78 block in case anything ever happened to my 493 and it would go back with a stock stroke like one of these engines! I like my 493 but my stock stroked 440 was plenty powerful!! I got a wild hair and ordered the stroker kit and spent a pile of cash when I already had a great running engine. Live and learn I guess!! ;D

Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 18, 2014, 02:36:43 PM

Quote from: Challenger340 on January 18, 2014, 01:33:36 PM

Quote from: Cooter on January 16, 2014, 10:33:04 PM
So what's the 411 on Steaths now?
good?
Need reworking still?
Out the box?
Castings porous still?

IMO,
The Stealth Heads biggest claim to fame, is indeed their factory "Stock" external appearance once painted, for those looking wishing to hide the aluminum/aftermarket Head.
OOTB,
both sets we received had negative longside Bowl transitions to the seat, the worst 2 individual Heads we then reworked with Porting and better Seat prep, with a 1.98" seat I.D. to correct(284 cam Engine)
the 2nd pair then.... only treated too seat prep on the stock I.D. leaving the "dip" in the longside wall above the seat, and then just a bowl and Intake opening clean(274 Cam Engine).

* No excessive casting porosity was found.
* OOTB Machining & Assembly, Guide Clearance, Seat Prep, etc., was otherwise satisfactory for Street Engine use.
* OOTB Flows approached 260 cfm @ .550"
In our opinion only
The Stealths should only be considered for OOTB configuration useage in sub-500hp applications
and for 500 Plus HP applications
substantial reworking should be undertaken a competent Shop, and Budgeted for in the initial purchase.

No wars wanted, just our opinion.

Nice Head for the money.... just don't anybody go kidding themselves, that they are going to install basically OOTB Stealths on a Stroker, add a Cam and make great Power ? FORGET IT... wasting your time.

:iagree: The Stealths OTTB are a 500hp head on a pump gas street build....no matter what the displacement is. It's stricly a matter of cylinder head flow and the Stealths are a bit weak out of the box as compared to an Edelbrock or Indy EZ.

A few years back MFR426 (Mike) built a mild hyd cam 500in motor with non-ported stealth heads. It made 510hp/590tq. A set of unported RPM's would have upped the power another 40-50Hp and made more torque as well.  :yesnod:
 
Mike's build with dyno results at Ray Barton's shop :

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,43911.0.html

When you compare the power numbers it becomes obvious why Pro's like Bob can make a big difference in power output with a little handywork on the die grinder.   :2thumbs:


Ron


Ps. Bob, those are very nice numbers on the second budget 440 as well. Peak tq @3500 is gonna be lots of fun on the street. A nice 10in converter and he'll be flyin  :icon_smile_big:

:2thumbs: very well said

Quote from: Challenger340 on January 19, 2014, 03:56:21 PM
I should add here, and subsequent to my last post, that I would agree with Ron(Firefighter3931),
that we too believe....
the Edelbrock RPM Head "OOTB" is a superior, and has more power potential in OOTB form than the Stealths, based upon our Flow Data on both.

We are only one Flowbench... but I am thinking the Eddy's are 20-40hp better based upon the application "OOTB".

:cheers: thank you for an honest assessment...

WOW!!  Great info in this thread. Thank you Bob, for bringing us all in on your builds. I'm loving the numbers. One day I would love to put together a nicely refined, Planned and built), motor and get back in the seat. Until then I get to dream about builds like this..

I am wondering how you would go. Cheaper heads that you can fix or more expensive heads that you won't have to spend crazy hours on fixing? I'm asking on a similar build. Say - 550 HP/TQ on a weekend driver and now and then race weekend?

Quote from: Steve P. on March 07, 2014, 03:14:09 AM
WOW!!  Great info in this thread. Thank you Bob, for bringing us all in on your builds. I'm loving the numbers. One day I would love to put together a nicely refined, Planned and built), motor and get back in the seat. Until then I get to dream about builds like this..

I am wondering how you would go. Cheaper heads that you can fix or more expensive heads that you won't have to spend crazy hours on fixing? I'm asking on a similar build. Say - 550 HP/TQ on a weekend driver and now and then race weekend?

Steve
Thanks for the kind words.... really though, I am just an old retired fart playing in his Shop ? so take my opinions, as just that... and old fart playing around.

I haven't seen many Heads period.... that don't require dis-assembly, and at least some work/improvement from as delivered ?
Even the expensive ones that Flow more, still need work sometimes OOTB ?
Some are better than others, but no matter INDY, Eddy, Brodix, Stealth, all should be checked, and most if not all, can usually stand some improvement even it is just a guide re-hone.

We hadn't seen much of the Stealths prior to these ? only a few times in passing so this was a good opportunity.
That said,
and again here, just our opinion only, if a guy is going to apply the normal Dis-assembly/Check, and then contemplate the "least" amount of Port work/Cleanup conduscive to a 550/550 type pump gas build.....
for the cheapest total initial outlay & work
Then the Edelbrock RPM Head would be my first choice :2thumbs:

The Eddy's may cost more initially than the Stealth.... but require less re-work for the 550/550 levels IMO.

 :2thumbs:

Old fart or not, you have provided a ton of great info and your experience is fantastic. I know I love reading your posts!!!  :yesnod:

Quote from: Steve P. on March 10, 2014, 12:47:28 PM
:2thumbs:

Old fart or not, you have provided a ton of great info and your experience is fantastic. I know I love reading your posts!!!  :yesnod:

X2 on that  :2thumbs:

Quote from: Challenger340 on March 10, 2014, 09:58:59 AM

Quote from: Steve P. on March 07, 2014, 03:14:09 AM
WOW!!  Great info in this thread. Thank you Bob, for bringing us all in on your builds. I'm loving the numbers. One day I would love to put together a nicely refined, Planned and built), motor and get back in the seat. Until then I get to dream about builds like this..

I am wondering how you would go. Cheaper heads that you can fix or more expensive heads that you won't have to spend crazy hours on fixing? I'm asking on a similar build. Say - 550 HP/TQ on a weekend driver and now and then race weekend?

Steve
Thanks for the kind words.... really though, I am just an old retired fart playing in his Shop ? so take my opinions, as just that... and old fart playing around.

I haven't seen many Heads period.... that don't require dis-assembly, and at least some work/improvement from as delivered ?
Even the expensive ones that Flow more, still need work sometimes OOTB ?
Some are better than others, but no matter INDY, Eddy, Brodix, Stealth, all should be checked, and most if not all, can usually stand some improvement even it is just a guide re-hone.

We hadn't seen much of the Stealths prior to these ? only a few times in passing so this was a good opportunity.
That said,
and again here, just our opinion only, if a guy is going to apply the normal Dis-assembly/Check, and then contemplate the "least" amount of Port work/Cleanup conduscive to a 550/550 type pump gas build.....
for the cheapest total initial outlay & work
Then the Edelbrock RPM Head would be my first choice :2thumbs:

The Eddy's may cost more initially than the Stealth.... but require less re-work for the 550/550 levels IMO.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.............

Just wish the Eddy's didn't look like huge, honking chunks of billet sitting and hanging off the top of your 440.

I'm not a purist, so I don't see the difference on the looks. The moment you fire the engine up everyone knows it's not stock, so why try to cheat it with stock looking heads? I have never seen the STEALTH up close or maybe I have and didn't notice, but really, do the Stealth heads have the same casting crud left on them as the stockers?? I guess I just don't see the point in trying to hide what you really have. Maybe if you were racing someone that didn't already know what your car would do!!  But then don't they all know that Stealth heads are out there??   :shruggy:

Not really a "purist" thing as much as even an INDY head resembles a mopar head. Eddy's look like somebody adapted a big block chevy head to fit a 440.

I guess that just doesn't bother me. Hell, how many big block Chevy rods do you think are in big block mopars?? To me it's what you as an individual are looking for. None of our cars came with an 8-71 perched on top, but I love them too.
What I like the most is guys coming up with different ideas on how to get the performance they want and be able to do it on a tight budget. That impresses me. The guys with more money than time to spend it build some nice rides, but I am less impressed because they can afford to buy anything at any price. Bob has shown people how to stroke a low block and make pretty big power. All while keeping weight down and no scoop required.. LOVE THAT!!!!!  :2thumbs:

Quote from: heyoldguy on March 11, 2014, 07:39:14 PM

Quote from: Challenger340 on March 10, 2014, 09:58:59 AM

Quote from: Steve P. on March 07, 2014, 03:14:09 AM
WOW!!  Great info in this thread. Thank you Bob, for bringing us all in on your builds. I'm loving the numbers. One day I would love to put together a nicely refined, Planned and built), motor and get back in the seat. Until then I get to dream about builds like this..

I am wondering how you would go. Cheaper heads that you can fix or more expensive heads that you won't have to spend crazy hours on fixing? I'm asking on a similar build. Say - 550 HP/TQ on a weekend driver and now and then race weekend?

Steve
Thanks for the kind words.... really though, I am just an old retired fart playing in his Shop ? so take my opinions, as just that... and old fart playing around.

I haven't seen many Heads period.... that don't require dis-assembly, and at least some work/improvement from as delivered ?
Even the expensive ones that Flow more, still need work sometimes OOTB ?
Some are better than others, but no matter INDY, Eddy, Brodix, Stealth, all should be checked, and most if not all, can usually stand some improvement even it is just a guide re-hone.

We hadn't seen much of the Stealths prior to these ? only a few times in passing so this was a good opportunity.
That said,
and again here, just our opinion only, if a guy is going to apply the normal Dis-assembly/Check, and then contemplate the "least" amount of Port work/Cleanup conduscive to a 550/550 type pump gas build.....
for the cheapest total initial outlay & work
Then the Edelbrock RPM Head would be my first choice :2thumbs:

The Eddy's may cost more initially than the Stealth.... but require less re-work for the 550/550 levels IMO.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.............

Exactly 4 x's if it's modified, why not go with a superior performing product, even if it doesn't look like the OEM casted stuff, I guess it's different strokes for different folks, opinions vary vastly it seems, but I'll take the better performing & 100% made in the USA part any day, over an inferior part, just because it's cheaper or that it looks closer to stock...

I heard Eddy claims to be made in USA, but they are not totally cast and machined here. Only takes like 39% to carry the "made in USA" label.

Quote from: Cooter on March 19, 2014, 06:23:11 PM
I heard Eddy claims to be made in USA, but they are not totally cast and machined here. Only takes like 39% to carry the "made in USA" label.

That's wrong, not sure where you heard that... I've toured the Edelbrock facilities in Torrance Ca. & San Jacinto Ca. Permanent Mold & Foundry, I've seen it 1st hand for myself, not too long ago, early sometime last year even, "From what I saw", they are Engineered/designed in-house from start to finish, founded/cast & machined here in SoCal, all the parts, casting, molds, valves, springs, cups, retainers, locks, seals etc., are all produced/made here too...

I don't know Cooter. I remember when they came out with a new or newer version of one of their heads and Vic Edelbrock . was on the Power Block showing his machine shop and said point blank, OUR HEADS ARE MADE RIGHT HERE IN THE USA BY AMERICAN WORKERS WITH AMERICAN PRIDE!!

If he is lying it would be a huge stab to all he lied to...

This is directly from their HEADS page:

" Every Edelbrock Cylinder Head is MADE IN USA for quality and performance! Cast and heat treated at the Edelbrock Foundry and machined at Edelbrock's manufacturing facility in the USA, Edelbrock heads are the best in quality and performance. Using highly efficient ports and state-of-the-art combustion chamber shapes, Edelbrock cylinder heads offer improved performance throughout the rpm range for great throttle response and top-end horsepower. Top-quality features include threaded inserts in rocker stud and exhaust bolt holes for superior strength and durability, and manganese-bronze valve guides. These are features that some other companies don't include! "

Hmmmmm......

This thread is awesome, can you please post a total parts costs as my 440 is off to the machine shop very shortly. I am curious to see what I am in for. also is there anything different that should be done if one is going to run HP manifolds with a build like this?


Thanks

Learned a lot of good info on this thread as well, i am always amazed by the knowledge on this forum. Every time i think i know exactly what im going to do with my motor i read something like this and i'm back to the drawing board  :-\ . I have a 77 440 bored .30 over that i wanted to get something like 550 hp out of, but mainly id like to run in the high 11's and low 12's (hell id be happy with mid or even high 12's at this point :lol:) so this build seems perfect for what i am trying to do. How much would something like this cost to have done, if you dont mind sharing? If its only like $1500 cheaper than a stroker then id just go with that.
Thanks in advance guys,
Pete

Been working pretty steady, and missed these requests,.....  seems to be a few of them ?
So,
what I'll do is get up a parts "list" that  people can price from, on there own, from there own sources and geographical locations.

The hard part for many people ? might be duplicating the "Labor" portion of these builds closer to home for some ?
Guys just don't believe it.... for most a "Bore & Hone"... is a "Bore & Hone".... Right ?
same goes for "Re-sizing Rods" .... Right ?
Absolutely WRONG !
"Apples" ain't "Oranges" when it comes to "Machining" versus "Blueprinting"

In a nutshell.... just be forewarned.... results WILL vary depending upon "where" and "who"....  you use to get it done.
Same goes for "pricing" all said and done.... depending upon "where" it gets done.

Stay tuned...
Bob.

PS;
I will also be curious after I get the Parts List up.... to hear what people think is a relative "Price Point" in the market for a 545hp/565Ft/lb Non-Stroker 440 package Engine ?
Assembled "Carb To Pan"... "Dizzy & Wires to Flexplate", timed & primed ready to go out the door ?
or,
even just as an Assembled LongBlock ?
Should be interesting....

Absolute fact, buddy...  We have a few machine shops around my neck of the woods, but I have been heavily warned about a few and warned others about another. These shops may know what the equipment (CAN) do, but they don't know how to make them do it right or don't have the interest to do it right..

When your machine man works to get things close and close is good enough for him and then the next stage is good enough for him and then the next, you wind up with a shaky motor that will granade in no time.

Short story I've told before:
I had some head work and line honing and cam bearing install done at a shop that was recommended to me, in Clearwater. The guy seamed to know what was what and many of the local cruize-in guys had used this shop. After all the cleaning, machining, cleaning again they put together my short block. 2 sets of heads cleaned and checked and one set got a 5 angle and some touch up on the floors that they said I left too smooth. Ok, a month goes by and I get a call. I shoot down to Clearwater to pick up my stuff and as I am driving in I see a big fan, (about 4 foot in diameter), just outside the door of the shop and it is blowing IN.  :eek2: The driveway is a stone/dirt passage that many others also use and the truck and trailer going by the door ahead of me have raised all kinds of dust that I see is blowing into the shop. I get inside and not 5 feet from the door and fan is my motor on a stand with no bag around it. Absolutely NOTHING keeping the dust and dirt out of my motor that is now a full shortblock!!!!

I went off the wall!!!!!  They did not even bag my motor.

Now before anyone asks, when I dropped off the motor it went in a door on the other side of the shop and that driveway is paved. They had many blocks there waiting for work and though most machines were old, they were kept clean and nice.

So even if they can do one part of the job, doesn't always mean they have the brains to do it ALL right!   

Got an order for 2 more of those lowly 440's, so I'll get the current parts list up this week. 

It would seem a few Buddies of the guy with the lower power 274 Cammed 440 Engine, went for ride in the 3.23 geared 70 R/T Challenger it was installed in, some Friday night street fun ensued, friendly stoplight competitions in the guys Car Club, blew the doors off a coupla strokers, yada, yada..... all I know.... is here we go again ?
We just don't get many "easy" pretty straight forward Engine builds like these to do very often.... we are primarily pidgeon-holed in the Comp/Drag end.... so a very nice break.
Only changes;
Gonna try a Street Dominator Intake in conjunction with a little more headwork on the Stealths... closer to what the 284H F.T. Cammed 545hp Engines Heads.... see what happens with the smaller 274H F.T. Cam ?
Just can't talk those guys outa the smaller Cam.... they want the nice idle quality, which sounds like just one-up from stock "musclecar" with TONS of Torque right off-idle and very responsive.

later this week
Bob

Quote from: Challenger340 on July 06, 2014, 10:35:16 AM
Got an order for 2 more of those lowly 440's, so I'll get the current parts list up this week. 

It would seem a few Buddies of the guy with the lower power 274 Cammed 440 Engine, went for ride in the 3.23 geared 70 R/T Challenger it was installed in, some Friday night street fun ensued, friendly stoplight competitions in the guys Car Club, blew the doors off a coupla strokers, yada, yada..... all I know.... is here we go again ?
We just don't get many "easy" pretty straight forward Engine builds like these to do very often.... we are primarily pidgeon-holed in the Comp/Drag end.... so a very nice break.
Only changes;
Gonna try a Street Dominator Intake in conjunction with a little more headwork on the Stealths... closer to what the 284H F.T. Cammed 545hp Engines Heads.... see what happens with the smaller 274H F.T. Cam ?
Just can't talk those guys outa the smaller Cam.... they want the nice idle quality, which sounds like just one-up from stock "musclecar" with TONS of Torque right off-idle and very responsive.

Hey, don't make fun of the small cam guys. :icon_smile_big:

Keep us posted.

OK, results are in on one the next "Budget" lowly 440 builds.

Keep in mind here, these builds are for the "RESTO" Crowd, who primarily want a good running pump gas "Street" Engine in the truest sense of the word, that fits as a drop in with their typical 3.23 stock gearing and 727 auto,
but.....
can still put a smile on their face when floored with 500hp and 535 Ft/Lbs Torque

These guys are not racing, they just want:
* close to stock appearance
* tons of vacuum for power brakes
* a one-up from stock "Musclecar" idle quality and exhaust note, almost "smooth" with the small 274 Flat Tappet Hydraulic Cam at .488" Lift 
* fits easy under the Hood with lots of Air Cleaner clearance(Street Dom Intake)
* matches the stock 440 magnum rpm range and 727 upshifting point of 5300rpm by itself when left in "D"
* and won't stress the stock Rad/Cooling or Fuel Systems.... otherwise trying to adequately Fuel or COOL a Stroker
* works with Headers and 2 1/4" Exhaust
* No Valve adjustments.... ever !
* Long-lived on the street 5/64" Piston Rings
and BEST of all....
* Cheap.... as in FAR CHEAPER than trying to finance a Stroker build.

The recipe can be applied to any 440 Core Engine... yes, even Cast Crank versions, although I prefer the earlier Forged Crank Cores as a better starting point to Balance Internally and applying stock looking Pulleys etc under hood.
Keep in mind here....
we've already made 545hp and 560 ft/lbs on this parts combination with a 284H Cam upgrade... so the temptation is already there where the Forged Crank Core is better on future upgrades.

(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Moparrmp/IMG_zps57532987.jpg)

Lowly 440 "recipe"
Start with a 440 Engine Core "shortblock" complete.

Engine Block Machine Package:
* Dis-assemble and strip shortblock
* Hot-Tank Block and all parts.
* Bore & Hone with Torque Plate to .004" to .0045" clearance
* Line Hone Mains with ARP Main Studs to .003" vertical clearance on Brgs
* Surface Block equal & square .010"
* Wash Block thoroughly
* Replace Block frost & gallery Plugs
* Replace and "Fit" Cam Bearings
* Regrind Crankshaft lowside
* Press old Pistons off Rods
* Re-Size Connecting Rods with ARP Boltsto .0025"'vertical clearance on Brgs
* Pin-Fit new Pistons to .001"( NO... they are NOT ready to use ootb for this application!)
* Install new Pistons on Rods

Stealth Head prep package:
* Dis-assemble, check guide clearance.
* Apply Stage 2 Seat & Valve prep
* Street Port Cylinder Heads
* Surface Heads
* Wash, re-assemble setting V/Spring Pressures
(this is our own porting and prep... obviously here, YOU should consider the ootb "Super Stealth" head offering ? or LOWER results

* Balance Engine Complete.

Assembly:
* Cam degree, re-check and record all clearances
* Port Match Intake Manifold
* Valvetrain Geometry, cut to fit pushrods
* Set Crank End Thrust @ .006"
* Ring Endgaps @ .018"
* Assemble Intake to Pan... Timing Cover to Flexplate, Timed and Primed with Oil.

Parts:
#200-1055 440Source Stealth Heads(2)
#109-1514 440Source Head Bolt Kit
#200-1045 440Source 1.5 Ratio Roller Rocker Arms,
#105-1018 440Source shims(2),
#113-1018 440Source spacers
#200-1032 440Source Hold Downs
10* Lock & retainer upgrade(CompCams 741-16 and 611-16)
#105-1022 440Source Cut to Fit pushrods
#127-1030 440Source Windage Tray
#200-1009 440Source Brass Frost & Gallery Plug Kit
FelPro 260-1001 O/H Gasket Set
FelPro 1808 extra Oil Pan Gasket for Windage Tray.
Melling M63 HV Oil Pump
Melling IS63 Oil Pump Drive(comes with Dizzy Tower Bushing)
Cloyes 9-3125 Timing Chain & Gearset
Speed Pro #96000 Intake Valley pan
ARP # 140-5401 Main Studs
ARP#145-6002 Connecting Rod Bolts
ICON FT Forged Pistons
Moly Rings
Durabond PD-17 Cam Bearings
Clevitte CB527P Rod Bearings
Speed Pro 119M10 Main Bearings(3/4 groove)
CompCams #23-224-4 Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam
16 Topline Johnson Flat Tappet Lifters
Holley 300-14 Intake Manifold
Any Engine Paint, Oil & Filter, Nuts & Bolts, Silicone, Shop Supplies, yada, yada, as req'd.

Options:
Eagle Connecting Rods
Complete Engine dress up Bolt Kit
Valve Covers
Aluminum Water Pump Housing & Water Pump

Quote from: Challenger340 on July 16, 2014, 11:39:39 AM
Lowly 440 "recipe"
Start with a 440 Engine Core "shortblock" complete.

Engine Block Machine Package:
* Dis-assemble and strip shortblock
* Hot-Tank Block and all parts.
* Bore & Hone with Torque Plate to .004" to .0045" clearance
* Line Hone Mains with ARP Main Studs to .003" vertical clearance on Brgs
* Surface Block equal & square .010"
* Wash Block thoroughly
* Replace Block frost & gallery Plugs
* Replace and "Fit" Cam Bearings
* Regrind Crankshaft lowside
* Press old Pistons off Rods
* Re-Size Connecting Rods with ARP Boltsto .0025"'vertical clearance on Brgs
* Pin-Fit new Pistons to .001"( NO... they are NOT ready to use ootb for this application!)
* Install new Pistons on Rods

Stealth Head prep package:
* Dis-assemble, check guide clearance.
* Apply Stage 2 Seat & Valve prep
* Street Port Cylinder Heads
* Surface Heads
* Wash, re-assemble setting V/Spring Pressures
(this is our own porting and prep... obviously here, YOU should consider the ootb "Super Stealth" head offering ? or LOWER results

* Balance Engine Complete.

Assembly:
* Cam degree, re-check and record all clearances
* Port Match Intake Manifold
* Valvetrain Geometry, cut to fit pushrods
* Set Crank End Thrust @ .006"
* Ring Endgaps @ .018"
* Assemble Intake to Pan... Timing Cover to Flexplate, Timed and Primed with Oil.

Parts:
#200-1055 440Source Stealth Heads(2)
#109-1514 440Source Head Bolt Kit
#200-1045 440Source 1.5 Ratio Roller Rocker Arms,
#105-1018 440Source shims(2),
#113-1018 440Source spacers
#200-1032 440Source Hold Downs
10* Lock & retainer upgrade(CompCams 741-16 and 611-16)
#105-1022 440Source Cut to Fit pushrods
#127-1030 440Source Windage Tray
#200-1009 440Source Brass Frost & Gallery Plug Kit
FelPro 260-1001 O/H Gasket Set
FelPro 1808 extra Oil Pan Gasket for Windage Tray.
Melling M63 HV Oil Pump
Melling IS63 Oil Pump Drive(comes with Dizzy Tower Bushing)
Cloyes 9-3125 Timing Chain & Gearset
Speed Pro #96000 Intake Valley pan
ARP # 140-5401 Main Studs
ARP#145-6002 Connecting Rod Bolts
ICON # 9953 Piston Set
5/64th Moly Rings
Durabond PD-17 Cam Bearings
Clevitte CB527P Rod Bearings
Speed Pro 119M10 Main Bearings(3/4 groove)
CompCams #23-224-4 Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam
16 Topline Johnson Flat Tappet Lifters
Holley 300-14 Intake Manifold
Any Engine Paint, Oil & Filter, Nuts & Bolts, Silicone, Shop Supplies, yada, yada, as req'd.

Options:
Eagle Connecting Rods
Complete Engine dress up Bolt Kit
Valve Covers
Aluminum Water Pump Housing & Water Pump

Wow, this looks great!

That is an absolutely awesome list, my hat is off to you as not many engine builders would do something like that. I think you also just outlined an "appear stock" cheating engine in my racing class, possibly with some rhoads lifters to idle even nicer.

 :coolgleamA:  this is interesting stuff ,  , have a compcams XE274 in the motor at the minute .   thanks for sharing this  info  , appreciated  :cheers: :cheers:

Could this be done for under 6K?

Quote from: b5blue on July 17, 2014, 08:59:50 PM
Could this be done for under 6K?

I have NO IDEA !
While the parts prices should be comparable for the most part across the country.... from Summit, Jegs or 440 Source, the Labor Rates vary greatly due to regional economics location to location.... and from Shop to Shop according to the quality of work performed ?.

I would strongly reccomend finding a shop that has a BB Mopar Torqueplate, and, if not purchasing the CNC Super Stealth Head from 440 Source at the outset, a Performance Shop that has a Flowbench and is familiar with Porting and Prep on the ootb normal Stealth Heads.

long story short here....
if you buy the parts.... then head off to the cheapest Farm Impliment Machine Shop you can find ? well... don't expect the same results.

   I meant by you!  :2thumbs: Everything posted here by you is gospel in my book. I went to great pains and waited 9 months just to have Chuck at CJ's Automotive handle my mild build. He races and has built literally 100's of B/RB engines and has only one trusted Mopar machinist. He also referred to my build as "low" and I assured him I'd be fine with output. (I am.) The only issues I have had have nothing to do with his rebuild.
  New Hyper Speed Pro 9.5 pistons, MP cam, MP bearings, gear set/chain, gasket set and so on (Everything MP except the Melling HV oil pump and Mancini push rods.) machine work/labor on block and 346 heads had me just under 3K after I installed the short block and assembled the top end.
  I'm certain your builds are much stronger and will last longer as your really going the full route with the new heads/connecting rods, extra attention to tolerances and so on. I wouldn't hesitate to have you build my next engine even with hefty shipping to Florida! I was just wondering what YOUR out the door total was around?  :shruggy:
 

Would there be any other changes if the 284 Cam was used??

This is an awesome thread btw.  :cheers:

Quote from: Canadian1968 on July 20, 2014, 04:13:58 PM
Would there be any other changes if the 284 Cam was used??

No, we don't do anything different between the 274 Cammed Engines and the 284 versions.
But the power jumps with the 284 Cam..... far more than one would expect when swapping a Flat Tappet Cam for another Flat Tappet Cam.
because,
the smaller 274 cam in function.... really acts more like a "cork" than anything else, with the Cylinder Head Porting/Prep we do already there, which should be considered as a "mid-way" step between the ootb Stealth Head, and the CNC ported Stealth Version.

You can look back in this thread for the 284 Cammed version numbers... but about 540hp and 550Ft/Lbs.... improvement well worth an afternoon Cam Swap if so desired.
albeit.... you are starting to move into more Convertor required, Lumpier Idle Quality, more Gearing, etc.

So everybody might say.... "why not just use the 284 Cam and brag the higher HP number" ?
well.....
DRIVE-ABILITY is the best answer.... for a drop-in Engine capable of really waking up a musclecar with the least amount of changes required ?
The 274 deal is small enough for 3.55 gears, good idle, and a 24-2800 stall convertor is lots !
with the added benefit....
of knowing with any later afternoon Cam swap.... more power is already "built in".  

Good stuff Bob....500hp/tq at just under 5500rpm is a fantastic street build.  :2thumbs:

Anything more will be a waste with a street tire anyway.....been there, done that  :yesnod:



Ron

Quote from: b5blue on July 19, 2014, 02:15:31 PM
   I meant by you!  :2thumbs: Everything posted here by you is gospel in my book. I went to great pains and waited 9 months just to have Chuck at CJ's Automotive handle my mild build. 
  I'm certain your builds are much stronger and will last longer as your really going the full route with the new heads/connecting rods, extra attention to tolerances and so on. I wouldn't hesitate to have you build my next engine even with hefty shipping to Florida! I was just wondering what YOUR out the door total was around?  :shruggy:
 

$20,000 friggin Dollars !    .... just kidding

Thanks for the kind words B5, much appreciated.
that said,
I am not here soliciting any work, as I am pretty much retired now, just an old fart playing in his shop still doing a few Engines for Drag Racer friends, and really.... doing so(Soliciting work) or pricing on here, would not be within the "genre" of this Site, which IMO, has gotten it RIGHT ! .... devoid of the usual Car Guy Site B.S. that seems to permeate the Internet.
Wouldn't ya know it... takes a Mopar Site where guys can honestly trade ideas.... to show the rest how it SHOULD be done !

My point being...
I think the "lowly 440" combo's... are reasonably "repeatable" for many on their own locally... on a Budget... with just some attention to detail ?
So IMO, a good "Fit" here ?

IMO, you most certainly do NOT need me !
just some good basics:
* Some good Headwork done on the Stealth's.... available at a Performance Shop in your area ~$600. ?... or consider the CNC "super" Stealth, albeit pushes the Budget ?
* Some decent "generic" Machining.... doesn't have to be "Blueprinting", just so long as they have a Torque-Plate and can Machine decently straight & round ?

It is NOT a case of....  "Even Blind Chickens get the odd kernel of Corn", ...... IMO, ANYBODY should be able to repeat fairly close !

Personally,
I just like the idea of a std 440 inch Engines "useable" rpm range for street useage, with the entry level Heads... versus Price Point ?
especially since,
with respect to minimal other modifications required in the Car ? to things like Cooling & Fuel Systems that are Taxed vrs increased Stroker Cooling, etc.

The Idea was:
* to build around "entry level" Cylinder Heads, which even ported IMO,.... don't "fit" the Strokers real well for useable rpm range without a large Camshaft, so the std 440 was chosen.
* Cost Effective, but expandable between 475 to 550 hp, so No Roller Cam expenses, High Spring pressures, etc., etc., yada, yada, just a $129. Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam and NO MAINTENANCE.
* Minimal vehicle support system upgrades required, Cooling, Fuel, Exhaust, Gearing, etc.... again here, the lowly std 440 seemed to fit better ? IMO.

I think this is one of the best threads ever!!   :2thumbs:

Can't think you enough Bob....  :cheers:

How would you rate your prepped stealths compared with OOTB edelbrock RPM's on this kind of build - performance wise.

Given this combo;
4100# car
3:91 gears
2400 stahl converter
Eddy heads with the basic prep package from Dwayne Porter, instead of stealths.

Which combo would be recomended? The XE274 combo or the XE284 combo since everything else in these builds is the same?

Quote from: justcruisin on July 22, 2014, 01:18:01 AM
How would you rate your prepped stealths compared with OOTB edelbrock RPM's on this kind of build - performance wise.

OUR prepped Stealth Heads are far better than an OOTB Eddy Performer rpm... 20+ cfm across the curve below .500" Lift even WITH the smaller Valves.
That said,
Easier to get there with the Eddy's as a starting point.

Quote from: Paul G on July 23, 2014, 07:01:28 PM
Given this combo;
4100# car
3:91 gears
2400 stahl converter
Eddy heads with the basic prep package from Dwayne Porter, instead of stealths.

Which combo would be recomended? The XE274 combo or the XE284 combo since everything else in these builds is the same?

I dunno Paul  :shruggy:
I don't know what Dwayne's "basic prep package" on the Eddy's Flows ? ... so I can't comment, and he would have his own Rec for HIS Heads anyways.

Just say'in...
We invested some time and effort, to get a fatter .200" to .500" Cam Lift Stealth Head prep & flow package... that we were happy with, and could be accomplished in one day, That would draw the MAX from the relatively smooth Idling .488" 274 profile, and still work with the .507" Lift 284.
In other words...
we worked the Heads targeting THOSE Cams.... no point chasing .550" or .600" lift Flows, for Cams that don't go there ?
We developed really FAT off the seat Flow.... figured out the quickest way to do it.... easiest to Port afterward.... went with it.
Once you go ahead a fawk a Port up to see what it does NOT like....
pretty easy then....
to go the "udder way" to figure out what it DOES LIKE
and along the way....
figure out what you need to do for BIG Lift Cams as well.

Bob, Thanks for publishing your results and tips for all to read & learn from, quite a handy reference for budget engine spends for those of us that are not super clued up on different combo's and what could work best for the chosen application, much appreciated.
It'll most surely be helpful when I get around to my upgrade.


Have a cold one on me  :cheers:

Thanks for this entire thread Bob. It has really explained a lot of things, like how not to spend too much money on a build that is not really needed to achieve great results for a street car. To reach 500+ HP and mid 500 TQ with a stock stroke is fantastic. No need for a big inch build. (which I think was the entire point of this thread)

One last question, Is the 60 overbore required to achieve the expected results?

Quote from: Paul G on July 24, 2014, 08:24:04 AM
Thanks for this entire thread Bob. It has really explained a lot of things, like how not to spend too much money on a build that is not really needed to achieve great results for a street car. To reach 500+ HP and mid 500 TQ with a stock stroke is fantastic. No need for a big inch build. (which I think was the entire point of this thread)

One last question, Is the 60 overbore required to achieve the expected results?

Thanks for the kind words, we'll keep on having FUN with the small Cam 440's for a while yet around here, so stay tuned for some more results.

No, on these last two- 440's..... the one Dyno'd is .040" and the other will be .030"... Bore size is making diddly difference on these.

As time permits....
we're going to machine up a couple for inventory, and have them ready to go. It would be nice to just have them in "stock", that we can then just "Cam" and final assemble according to our data between 475 to 550hp as req'd, then Dyno before leaving.
I am ready for some better small Cam design testing very soon.
They seem to fill a "niche" for decent power without breaking the Bank, at least around here anyways, so why not.

I'd be real interested in seeing how the old school MP# P4452783 "RESTO" cam did. (268/284-46*overlap-.450/.458lift on 115*center line.) It's the same as the six-pack spec. except for the six-pack's lower lobe slope. (MP# P4529270)  :scratchchin:

Or the Crower 282HDP Ron likes.  If you're taking requests.  ;D

But truly, thank you for sharing.   :2thumbs:

The challenge I am facing is explaining to the local machinist how I want the engine to be built. They all have there own ways and preferred builds.

If I am getting this right, the heads are the key to it all.  The machinists I have spoke to so far really haven't convinced me they are very good at head porting.  So that is what leads me to Porter Racing. Dwayne has a great reputation, and he ships anywhere.

Hi Challyman
I'm another Old Fart engine builder here in Limey-land...

We have a V8 here in the UK called the all-aluminium Rover 3.5 litre.(based on the 50's Buick iron block engine). Very popular in the 70's and 80's...
Anyways, a specialist company here in the South-East of England used to build them up to 500hp...
Back ten years ago I joined them and we built Mopar engines too.
Sadly due to outside pressures it has now gone outta business, but we had some fun along the way.

My opinion is and always will be, don't use 40 year old connecting-rods!!!
The bulk of Mother Mopar 440 rods either 'LY' or 'SP heavy' are terrible to say the least!!! :slap:
There are plenty of good aftermarket rods with fully floating bushes pre-installed.
Forging quality is ten times better and no need to lighten and balance...

Apart from that, ALL is good in the World with your amazing builds!!! :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

ps., as I always say, anyone can build and engine..its the quality of machining THAT'S IMPORTANT!!! :Twocents:

Bob,
      The 274 Cammed 440 did you guys dyno the engine with the HP Exhaust manifolds? Seeing as this engine spec would more than likely be fitted in a "Stealth" engine bay was wondering the torque /hp loss (Torque more important as if we are serious the engine on the street spends most of its time from idle to 3000 RPM, torque is what we like on the street).
I am just about to start a build same engine as the 274H 440 but as 512 stroker with HP exhaust manifolds, 2.5" exhaust with Hemi mufflers, 3.23 gears 727 standard convertor, a true street engine. More concerned with torque numbers below 3000 RPM. Only question will the 274 be too small in a 512 ci and would the 284 idle and act like the 274 in a 512.
Wondering if you have ever built a 512 with the same lowely street spec?

Well, I would suggest........, oh wait, I'm not Bob.

Quote from: DC69RT on January 26, 2018, 09:41:38 PM
Bob,
      The 274 Cammed 440 did you guys dyno the engine with the HP Exhaust manifolds? Seeing as this engine spec would more than likely be fitted in a "Stealth" engine bay was wondering the torque /hp loss (Torque more important as if we are serious the engine on the street spends most of its time from idle to 3000 RPM, torque is what we like on the street).
I am just about to start a build same engine as the 274H 440 but as 512 stroker with HP exhaust manifolds, 2.5" exhaust with Hemi mufflers, 3.23 gears 727 standard convertor, a true street engine. More concerned with torque numbers below 3000 RPM. Only question will the 274 be too small in a 512 ci and would the 284 idle and act like the 274 in a 512.
Wondering if you have ever built a 512 with the same lowely street spec?

Nope, that was with 2 1/8" Dyno Headers I believe ? which probably KILLED Torque as too big for that Engine,
and
Nope, never done a 512 with a Cam that small or with Stealth Heads.

BSB67 has LOTS of experience with Big Engine/Little Cam combo's... so I'll digress and let him talk !

BSB67,
          Please suggest!!!

Here is what I suggest.  Start a new thread with what you have (engine, parts, car, drivetrain), what your goals are, AND what you budget is.  Then we can go from there.

Or maybe better yet, reach out to Dwayne Porter.  He is a professional in the high performance service business, a Comp Cam distributor, and has speced a bunch of exhaust manifold cams for both street guys and racers.

On here he goes by: PRH

porterheads@gmavt.net

This is going on at Moparts, some info.  http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2439243/1.html

Quote from: DC69RT on January 26, 2018, 09:41:38 PM
Bob,
      The 274 Cammed 440 did you guys dyno the engine with the HP Exhaust manifolds? Seeing as this engine spec would more than likely be fitted in a "Stealth" engine bay was wondering the torque /hp loss (Torque more important as if we are serious the engine on the street spends most of its time from idle to 3000 RPM, torque is what we like on the street).
I am just about to start a build same engine as the 274H 440 but as 512 stroker with HP exhaust manifolds, 2.5" exhaust with Hemi mufflers, 3.23 gears 727 standard convertor, a true street engine. More concerned with torque numbers below 3000 RPM. Only question will the 274 be too small in a 512 ci and would the 284 idle and act like the 274 in a 512.
Wondering if you have ever built a 512 with the same lowely street spec?

pm sent

Quote from: DC69RT on January 26, 2018, 09:41:38 PM
Bob,
     The 274 Cammed 440 did you guys dyno the engine with the HP Exhaust manifolds? Seeing as this engine spec would more than likely be fitted in a "Stealth" engine bay was wondering the torque /hp loss (Torque more important as if we are serious the engine on the street spends most of its time from idle to 3000 RPM, torque is what we like on the street).
I am just about to start a build same engine as the 274H 440 but as 512 stroker with HP exhaust manifolds, 2.5" exhaust with Hemi mufflers, 3.23 gears 727 standard convertor, a true street engine. More concerned with torque numbers below 3000 RPM. Only question will the 274 be too small in a 512 ci and would the 284 idle and act like the 274 in a 512.
Wondering if you have ever built a 512 with the same lowely street spec?

Yes, on one of the Collection's examples...
we've exceeded 500hp using the factory HP Manifolds and 2 1/4" Exhaust, WITH the factory Air Cleaner installed, on a NON-Stroker 440 +.030" Engine using Ported Stealth Heads and a custom grind Hydraulic Roller Camshaft
so...
I see no reason you could not easily reach your goals with gunga Trq down low on the 512, with the qualification to access Porting/Flow data on the particular Head R&D adequate for custom Cam selection.

Not much time to revisit these old 440 builds, but as a result of some sb Chev 355 "restricted" Sprint Car Cylinder Head R & D....
We've apllied an updated V/Seat application for the Stealth Heads, that doesn't require the same porting/time/money and expense(10-12 Hrs) that we used to imput on the "lowly 440" Pkg

Long story short:
I'll get a before/after Flow Sheet on the STEALTH's up soon,
and,
the resulting .030" over 440 Dyno Sheet.

But we've been able to shave our time imput on the Heads within 4 Hrs Labor floor to floor, then Bolt 'em on with NO Intake or Head Intake/Exhaust Opening Porting(lousy OOTB Port Match)
and
we saw 504hp @ 5,400 rpm, and 525 Ft/Lbs on the Dyno, WITH the Air Cleaner INSTALLED(N96 style Oval 4 BBL)

Pkg update skinny:
STEALTH Heads, changed seat prep/angles/check guides/Bowl blend ONLY after the seat cutters, Valves back cut(4 hrs floor to floor)(NO runner or entrance Porting). Intake Flow averages were much improved.
Stock Stamped Steel Rockers/Shafts
Comp Cams XE284H
Street Dom OOTB
850 cfm Holley
10.14:1

Dunno when we'll get a chance to back this up on a 2nd 440 Dyno Test ? but when/if we can.... or do back it up on a 2nd 440 build, it may move the STEALTH Heads into a basically a very cost effective 500hp Bolt On Head for the "resto" appearance/budget build crowd ?
I'll save the revised seat prep until we back it up on a 2nd lowly 440 build, but I'll order some more STEALTH Heads later today to re-apply/flow again.

Very interesting.    :popcrn:     All the info you have in this thread is incredibly valuable.    :yesnod:      Thanks for posting.      :2thumbs:

Wow! This changes the ball game!!   :2thumbs:

Quote from: Challenger340 on January 31, 2019, 10:49:36 AM
Not much time to revisit these old 440 builds, but as a result of some sb Chev 355 "restricted" Sprint Car Cylinder Head R & D....
We've apllied an updated V/Seat application for the Stealth Heads, that doesn't require the same porting/time/money and expense(10-12 Hrs) that we used to imput on the "lowly 440" Pkg

Long story short:
I'll get a before/after Flow Sheet on the STEALTH's up soon,
and,
the resulting .030" over 440 Dyno Sheet.

But we've been able to shave our time imput on the Heads within 4 Hrs Labor floor to floor, then Bolt 'em on with NO Intake or Head Intake/Exhaust Opening Porting(lousy OOTB Port Match)
and
we saw 504hp @ 5,400 rpm, and 525 Ft/Lbs on the Dyno, WITH the Air Cleaner INSTALLED(N96 style Oval 4 BBL)

Pkg update skinny:
STEALTH Heads, changed seat prep/angles/check guides/Bowl blend ONLY after the seat cutters, Valves back cut(4 hrs floor to floor)(NO runner or entrance Porting). Intake Flow averages were much improved.
Stock Stamped Steel Rockers/Shafts
Comp Cams XE284H
Street Dom OOTB
850 cfm Holley
10.14:1

Dunno when we'll get a chance to back this up on a 2nd 440 Dyno Test ? but when/if we can.... or do back it up on a 2nd 440 build, it may move the STEALTH Heads into a basically a very cost effective 500hp Bolt On Head for the "resto" appearance/budget build crowd ?
I'll save the revised seat prep until we back it up on a 2nd lowly 440 build, but I'll order some more STEALTH Heads later today to re-apply/flow again.

Very impressive

So guys, getting down to the time I need to pick the engine for the car and this thread has been really informative. 

Would the 440 builds described here apply well to a 400 stroked to 451 or 470 (440 Source kits).  If not then why.

Another option I am considering is using my old 383 2bbl and stroked to 438 (440 Source kit).

I like the idea of the stroked 400 for hood clearance and the small weight save, but the stroked 383 would save money.

Currently running 3.91 gears but eventually go to 3.23 or lower if the urge strikes me.  Converter to be new.   Currently 235/60x15 tires.

Headers because I like them.  2.5 inch exhaust.

Looking for that very streetable car so the 274 cam appeals.

What do you think?

I screwed together a very similar engine back in 2012, OOTB eddy's, xe275hl which is pretty much a xe274h with 1.6 arms. 4050lbs, 3.23 gears and 727. IMO a zero deck 10.0 - 10.2:1 with the stealths/eddy's/sidewinders is a great build for a street car that you intend to drive a fair bit. The final HP/TQ will depend on the amount of work on the heads, no need to go crazy with this type of build. What is detailed here is all that is needed. I wouldn't go crazy on the torque converter either, 2500 with the xe274h is all you need.(presuming auto). I have taken the car to the track on occasion and it runs 12.8's at 110/111mph with full street rubber. Same can be applied to the 400, if it was me I would build the 470 with a studded bottom end and good internals incase the HP bug bites, your then set for cam and top end upgrades.

Just my opinion, but if you're starting from scratch on a full stroker build, it seems silly to start with a 383 block to pinch on a few pennies.

Quote from: BSB67 on September 05, 2019, 06:55:55 PM
Just my opinion, but if you're starting from scratch on a full stroker build, it seems silly to start with a 383 block to pinch on a few pennies.

I've heard that same comment from others.  Currently looking for a 400 block.

Quote from: green69rt on September 06, 2019, 09:28:53 AM

Quote from: BSB67 on September 05, 2019, 06:55:55 PM
Just my opinion, but if you're starting from scratch on a full stroker build, it seems silly to start with a 383 block to pinch on a few pennies.

I've heard that same comment from others.  Currently looking for a 400 block.

I am a great fan of the low deck 383/400 Block based Strokers..... I've been building them since the mid 80's
that said,
the only caution I have for anyone considering them(383/400 Blocks) in a mufflered street Car Stroker application ?
and,
given the lack nowadays of Machine Shops with a BB Mopar Torque Plate ?

which can make fitting the very short 1.32" CD 2618 alloy Pistons difficult.... and typically resulting in audible/noisey "Piston Slap" present in the Engine once completed.

Hence is a guy is only looking at 500-600HP/Ft/Lbs Torque in mufflered street cars..... which ALL Blocks are satisfactory for carrying......IMO, advantage goes to the RB Blocks with the longer/quieter running 440 Pistons based on higher CD's.