Working on tuning. Slight bog when going to WOT from cruising speed. Of course decreases as I move up in pod spring size. Also pick up some pinging at this transition, until I move up to black spring, then no ping, but seems like a little less power @ WOT with black spring. Runs crisp off center carb. I am going to curve the distibuter hopefully this weekend, I need to lessen the amount of total advance as engine likes initial of 22, but pings after 32. Anyway, is this something that can be tuned out by going richer on the outboard carbs? Maybe that will allow me a little more total advance? Pinging is happening at transition to outboard carbs.
First is the idle set on the outboards? If so how did you do that? How old is this 6BBL? (There are tiny cork seals in the outboards idle needles that dry out.) Do you use vacuum advance? If so try using full manifold vacuum. Check bowl floats height and 6BBL like high volume but only 5LBs pressure. (Carter pump, not expensive.) What cam? Tranny? :scratchchin:
Aren't we supposed to nail down the timing first, then move on to the fuel system?
Yes...where he is at should be okay. :2thumbs:
Cam is a hyd roller w/.560 lift/243/251 duration on a 10 compression 500 in engine. Gas is 91 non oxenated w/octane booster(Race Gas) to 93. Floats on outboards are set to just over the bottom of the sight hole, center carb is right at bottom of sight hole. Carbs were just rebuilt at a reputable carb shop. I have the high volume carter fuel pump from Mancini that I see recommended for this setup. Trans is auto w/3500 stall converter.
I think I might have to deal with a lean issue to allow proper timing at this point. I am also thinking I have to use stronger springs in the distributer to move my max timing up for after the outboards kick in. And no vacumn advance hooked up. But I am a newb at this level of tuning, so appreciate an advise I might get.
I had my 6BBL 20 years so I start with basic initial settings. Just keep in mind the ping and bog may not be related. I couldn't get rid of ping with iron heads without pulling a bunch of timing out. My stuff was all very close to stock unlike yours. What's your vacuum reading? I would not be afraid to start swapping springs in the outboards, just keep notes. Bog can come from too early or late transition.
Mine liked 12 initial with 10 added vacuum advance with 34 full using one big and one small spring to give a dual rate on the curve. It would pull like a bull but the iron heads gave a bit of ping at the very top of each gear. No bog at all. (If that helps.)
With 3 carbs the trick is to not change more than one aspect at a time. Pulling timing was a last resort, it robs power big time.
Mentally I thought of my 6BBL as center and the twins, what you do to one of the twins you do to the other. :2thumbs:
I have aluminum heads, and agree with you about getting some timing back. I'm thinking it is leaning out on the transition to the secondary carbs. I think I will progress on curving the distributer and then drop down one spring on vacumn pods, then maybe try jetting up the ouboards
Outboard needles set @1/8 turn. Center carb screws were set for high idle vac, which is 12
I feel like this is a lean problem not a timing problem. That combo should want more total timing then 32.
Block the outboards with a solid gasket and tune the center 1st and set timing before moving on.
The basics are sounding good. You might be a bit tight on outboard idle screws. I set mine off the intake so just the very tip of the needle peeks out and that was very close to 1/2 turn. (But your not dogging it off idle in gear so leave it be.)
Try the springs and avoid the ping. Another good test situation is to find a hill or overpass to test while going up. Changes show up stronger for your by the seat gauging.
Quote from: fizz on April 21, 2016, 05:40:26 PM
Outboard needles set @1/8 turn.
Are you using that ever so popular write up on how to tune a 6BBL? The one that tells you that gasoline is flammable?
Is the 6 pack setup stock other then the swapped springs? If so, i guarantee its fuel delivery as the factory setup was not designed for bigger cams, cubes, and heads. The outboards are not setup to deliver more fuel. Your options are drill the blocks incrementaly, or convert to adjustable metering blocks. I suggest the 2nd option unless you are trying to fool someone into thinking its "stock" the aftermarket blocks will also allow idle adjustments without carb removal. There is way too much to go into on one of these threads.
It will work he's got 12" of vacuum. Guys said 6BBL was no good with 509 cam and I ran 6 years that way with no trouble. :2thumbs: Quick Fuel metering plates fit inside the outboard fuel bowls if needed. The center carb should be fine as is. I'm trying to recall power valve? :scratchchin:
Here? http://www.mopar1.us/6barreltips.html
I did start out using that write up, now I am past that initial tuning. I was looking for advise on whether I was chasing a lean condition when the outboards open. I didn't realize the outboards were not jetable, so will get the promax plates. THANKS
Quote from: b5blue on April 22, 2016, 07:42:54 AM
It will work he's got 12" of vacuum. Guys said 6BBL was no good with 509 cam and I ran 6 years that way with no trouble. :2thumbs: Quick Fuel metering plates fit inside the outboard fuel bowls if needed. The center carb should be fine as is. I'm trying to recall power valve? :scratchchin:
In this case, vacuum isnt the problem. Doesnt matter what time the outboards open when the carbs metered for a stock 440 are flowing that amount of fuel into a 500" modified engine. Adjustable meter blocks will be needed here in my opinion as well as different diaphram springs.
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but the objective is to richen up the outboard carbs, which I can do with the promax jet plates? They sell a metering block, which is for the center carb. I feel the center carb is pretty close. Then , switch back to the tall yellow secondary springs and recurve distibuter for intial and total timing.
Correct, metering plate not block. I'll see if I can find. :2thumbs: I had 2 but sold them with my 6BBL.
Here: http://www.quickfueltechnology.com/carb-components/metering-blocks-and-components/billet-metering-plate-kit-vacuum-secondary.html
These guy can help ya also: http://promaxcarbs.bizland.com/index.html
Hey, thanks, got the promax ones coming. I'll report back when I get somewhere with it.
:2thumbs:
Quote from: fizz on April 22, 2016, 01:16:30 PM
Hey, thanks, got the promax ones coming. I'll report back when I get somewhere with it.
1) Yes to your original question. IMO, what you are experiencing is a lean
transition.
2) The changes you are planning won't help, in my opinion. The problem is not the main circuit.
3) The 1/8 turn out, IMO is one of several things that is simply wrong in that silly write-up.
Here is what I suggest that you do to prove, or disprove the lean condition as the source of the ping:
1) Open the outboard carbs idle mixture screws to 1 full turn (this is likely too much, but this is simply a test). You will probably need to tighten up the center carb idle mixture screws to help compensate.
2) Raise the float levels in the outboard carbs so fuel spills out freely.
Go for a test drive. You will learn something, and it won't cost a nickel.
Thanks BSB, I will try it this weekend
While you have the rear outboard off to adjust idle look at the idle port/needle to see where 1/8 turn and then 1 full turn puts the tip of the needle. Getting to understand how much turn moves that tip in or out will help you gauge what your doing. As you vary idle you'll need to keep an eye on float height as it acts as a leak/bleed to the bowls.
I quickly found out removing and installing fuel lines to be a royal pain in the butt. Concerned that steel to pot metal bowl connections were getting stressed I bought a brass hose barb T and made a test/tune rubber hose rig that let me leave the factory steel rig on the shelf till done. Then it was easy to just loosen hoses to pull carbs and mess around.
Moving out the secondary idle mixture screws to 3/4 turn and 1/2 turn up on the floats DID result in eliminating the ping at transition, But, made my idle poorer even when I adjusted the primary idle mixture screws, which didn't seem to do anything. BUT, I am installing the secondary jet plates anyway, as it would stand to reason, like Coonhunter said, that the secondary carbs should need jetting changes with the modified, larger engine, so will deal with that some more then. I am confused that primary jetting would not have more control at that engine speed? Also, my engine wants about 24 degrees initial timing, but total of 38 pings under full throttle. I can adjust this for 24 and 34 or 36, BUT why does it want so much initial. I bought a kit with springs and gauges for curving the distributer, It likes idle rpm of about 1000 rpm, so I am thinking the springs that give me the most gradual, flattest curve advance, as I am only going to give it 10 or 12 degrees mechanical advance, which would have it all in before 2500 rpm.
The cam timing events coupled with the displacement and static compression will determine where it's happiest at idle. I try to adjust for max vacuum at idle and tune the mechanical advance and springs for the best curve. Shoot for 35* total at 2500 rpm. Anything more will not make anymore power and just risk detonation. :P
It definitely needs more jet on the outboard carbs. The plates with screw in jets are a great tuning tool and upgrade. :2thumbs:
Ron
My stock-ish 6BBL loved vacuum advance run off full manifold vacuum. It was a bit tricky to get the dizzy setup that as vacuum advance dropped away mechanical took over but I used a dual rate curve in my Firecore RTR dizzy. (I've no idea if this will help you though?) 12* initial +10* for vacuum with all in @36*.
I have the Firecore dizzy, I will be starting @ 24 or 25 degrees 1000 rpm going +10 degrees to 35@ 2500, I am thinking looking at the curves I will never get to use a dual rate spring gaining 10 degrees advance in 1500 rpm. Since I am advancing so little I am looking at the curve rates that take me there in a flat curve with springs that don't start advancing till over 1000 rpm. I have no reason to think this other than simple logic. I do have a curve kit with 9 springs from firecore, so I have quite a few options.
Quote from: fizz on April 25, 2016, 07:31:27 AM
Moving out the secondary idle mixture screws to 3/4 turn and 1/2 turn up on the floats DID result in eliminating the ping at transition, But, made my idle poorer even when I adjusted the primary idle mixture screws, which didn't seem to do anything. BUT, I am installing the secondary jet plates anyway, as it would stand to reason, like Coonhunter said, that the secondary carbs should need jetting changes with the modified, larger engine, so will deal with that some more then. I am confused that primary jetting would not have more control at that engine speed? Also, my engine wants about 24 degrees initial timing, but total of 38 pings under full throttle. I can adjust this for 24 and 34 or 36, BUT why does it want so much initial. I bought a kit with springs and gauges for curving the distributer, It likes idle rpm of about 1000 rpm, so I am thinking the springs that give me the most gradual, flattest curve advance, as I am only going to give it 10 or 12 degrees mechanical advance, which would have it all in before 2500 rpm.
Okay. Did a trial, learned some stuff. Good.
Not clear, does it now ping at 38°?, 36°?, 34°?, 32°? under WOT?
24° initial is not uncommon.
It is a false notion that bigger, modified motors necessarily need more jet. I suspect that it will need a little more, but of your carbs came with 0.089" meter plate orifices, then your not too far off. I have dyno and track tested and tuned the 6 bbl on a bunch of motors, 300 hp 383 to 600+hp 500 in motors. The jetting is surprisingly close for all of them. Going from memory, I think mine were around 78 to 80 in jet size.
Is your center carb idle mixture screw ineffectiveness new, or always been this way? Or do you know for sure?
The outboard carb's main circuit have NO control at cruise as the throttle plates are closed. Cruising at 100 mph you are probably on the outboard carb's idle circuit.
If it pings at WOT above 3500 rpm, messing with the ignition curve will not help. There are a bunch of things you can do to help reduce ping (They've been posted many times and includes fuel/delivery and jetting). If those don't help, it is too much compression.
What are all of the cam specs?, what is your cylinder pressure?, What was the idle vacuum and rpm when it idled better, and what is it now?
Pings at 38, which is what I get at 24 initial until I get total advance turned back(this week) lost control of idle with primary carb idle mixture screws when I raised float and turned idle mix screws out on secondaries, so will start adjusting back a little, until I can adjust idle again. I have the lift and cam duration above in this post, I just don't have those numbers memorized. I probobly won't mess with it too much until plates get here, as I will go through all my initial settings again then. Static compression was 72, advertised compression with piston/head combination was 9.8
Pinging at wot, I wasn't getting to this point before as I would back out when it would ping at the transition. And thanks guys for helping
Quote from: fizz on April 25, 2016, 08:20:05 PM
Pings at 38, which is what I get at 24 initial until I get total advance turned back(this week) lost control of idle with primary carb idle mixture screws when I raised float and turned idle mix screws out on secondaries, so will start adjusting back a little, until I can adjust idle again. I have the lift and cam duration above in this post, I just don't have those numbers memorized. I probobly won't mess with it too much until plates get here, as I will go through all my initial settings again then. Static compression was 72, advertised compression with piston/head combination was 9.8
This does not help much as you did not answer most of the questions or your answers are unclear.
Sorry, idle rpm always seems to clean up at 1000rpm. 12 steady vacuum running good, 10 somewhat erratic now
Cam is hyd roller 560 lift, 243/251 duration
I get ya, like my iron head problem you do the best you can but back out if it pings.
Quote from: fizz on April 25, 2016, 09:43:31 PM
Cam is hyd roller 560 lift, 243/251 duration
What are
all of the cam specs: advertised, the LSA, and ICL
Quote from: fizz on April 21, 2016, 11:51:18 AM
until I move up to black spring, then no ping, but seems like a little less power @ WOT with black spring.
Was there no ping at WOT through the full rpm range? What was the time then?
Meant to type 172 compression warm with compression guage. Cam is Lunati Hyd. Roller with advertised duration 294/302, duration @ .050 243/251, lift .560/.565, LSA/ICL 110/106. We did degree the cam to make sure it was installed per spec. Has ZFR6F-11 NGK plugs. Initially, tried to have the car proffesionally tuned on a wheel dyno, came back with 28 degrees total timing, loose spark plug boots, spitting gas out of the exhaust at idle, and would not idle at all until hot, still needed 91 gas with 2 ounces octane booster per gallon. So, since between the original engine builder and the chassis dyno tuner, decided I would have to figure it out myself. So, idle first, float level on primary carb was set at mid window, adjusted to bottom of window. Primaries were set at top of window, set to just above bottom of window, idle mixture screws on primary hadn't been doing anything, were at 1 1/2 turn out. secondaries were about one turn out, turned them to 1/8 turn out, and then had control of engine with idle mixture screws, idled ok. Hooked up vacuum guage and set idle to where it ran best, which was 24 degrees and 12" vacuum and leaves me at current total of 38. Now, road test at these settings, ping at transition. Increased float level and turned out secondary mixture screws and road tested. No ping at transition but slight when under load WOT, higher rpm but didn't check. Idle quality not as good as before and no control with primary idle mixture screws, 10" vac slightly jumping needle. Need to check adjustable PCV valve. I know 38 is too high and need to adjust. Also need to adjust either float level and secondary idle mixture screws back or both till I get control of idle mixture. That is where I am at right now. I appreciate that you are trying to help me out.
The idle quality (and manifold vacuum) dropped when you retarded the base timing....that is normal. :yesnod:
You'll need to go inside the distributor and shorten the mechanical advance using the adjustable stops. The RTR distributor has 30* of adjustability. Looking at the window just adjust it so that one third of the window is open and 2/3 is closed. This will give you 10* of mechanical advance. Then you simply adjust the base timing at idle to 24* and you're good to go.
The std advance spring package is 2 medium weight (blue) springs and I suggest trying it with those installed. Full advance should be all-in by 2300-2400 rpm which is a good street tune.
Once that's all squared away you can begin with the carb tuning. It's going to want increased jet on the outboards I would think. :yesnod:
BSB67 has some very good suggestions and should get you dialed in. :icon_smile_cool:
Ron
Quote from: fizz on April 25, 2016, 09:41:32 PM
Sorry, idle rpm always seems to clean up at 1000rpm. 12 steady vacuum running good, 10 somewhat erratic now
Please elaborate on "erratic". This is a big red flag to me.
Needle jumping about 2 by at idle, which is new, but possibly because of where I have the pcv valve set, which can be set for lower idle vacuum. Also did that when it came back from engine builder and tuner, but got rid of that when I adjusted valves and set carbs. But what are you thinking, coo hunter?
A video of the gauge would help. Your description isnt really good enough. A rhythmic ticking of the gauge will point to a cylinder. Whether it be a burnt valve or a plug. If its erratic, could be sticky valve. Depending on what the needle is doing will point towards the problem. This needs to be assessed and addressed prior to any tuning. Could be something as simple as plug gap, but it needs to be checked.
There are a few different things going on independent of each other, so you just need to start taking care of them one at a time.
Which PCV was in it when it had better idle? If the fancy PCV is new in this mix, take it out and put the old one back in for now.
Question: What heads do you have?
For now, I would not mess with the distributor or change the timing. Keep it at 24° initial, and 38° total. If it pings above 3500, changing the timing curve won't help. I think the initial and total are close to about where it should be. We'll do some trials and final tuning later. Which heads you have might matter.
Put fresh spark plugs in it. When you tell me which heads, I'll recommend a plug.
When you get the plates, put 80s in all four corners. Turn the idle mixture screws 1/8 turn in from where they are set now (about 5/8 turn out?). Reinstall. Start car let it warm up a bit. Check to see if fuel is dribbling out of the boosters. Recheck the float levels, set as recommended earlier. Recheck again to make sure that fuel is not dribbling out of the boosters while idling.
Idle should be better, but maybe not perfect. That is okay for now. Go for a test drive. Do some WOT. Pay attention to if and when it pings. If it still pings, reduce total timing to 36°, retest. If it still pings, reduce the timing to 34°, and retest.
Report back.
I'm pretty sure Fizz has a set of closed chamber aluminum Stealth's on this build based on the ZFR6F-11 plug he is using. That's the recommended NGK plug for the Stealth heads. Heat range is 6 which is correct for a pump gas build, from my experience. :yesnod:
The 172psi dynamic reaing is pump gas friendly....if it pings the problem is either ignition or fuel delivery related.
With regards to total timing ; I've had several similar street builds using closed chamber aluminum heads and all have made their best power number with 34-35* total timing. The latest is a 426 street wedge with 9.8:1 compression and a mild hyd flat tappet Crane grind. That combo made best power at 34* total timing and the numbers went backwards as timing was increased. :P
I would get the timing curve dialed in before fooling around with the jetting....but that's just me. ;)
My rule of thumb has allways been ignition first....then fuel delivery. :Twocents:
Ron
I'm pretty sure Fizz has a set of closed chamber aluminum Stealth's on this build based on the ZFR6F-11 plug he is using. That's the recommended NGK plug for the Stealth heads. Heat range is 6 which is correct for a pump gas build, from my experience. :yesnod:
Sure
The 172psi dynamic reaing is pump gas friendly....if it pings the problem is either ignition or fuel delivery related.
Sure
With regards to total timing ; I've had several similar street builds using closed chamber aluminum heads and all have made their best power number with 34-35* total timing. The latest is a 426 street wedge with 9.8:1 compression and a mild hyd flat tappet Crane grind. That combo made best power at 34* total timing and the numbers went backwards as timing was increased. :P
I've done this long enough, and have seen enough to know to not presume any number is right or wrong regarding total timing until I have car specific data. I have no idea what the right total timing will be, and it seems logical to try several to just to see what happens to the ping. I promise, we will learn something. There is only one way to determine the best total timing
I would get the timing curve dialed in before fooling around with the jetting....but that's just me. ;)
The car idled better before, he enriched the carbs. Then it ran worse. I'm not sure why you would go to the timing curve next.
My rule of thumb has allways been ignition first....then fuel delivery. :Twocents:
This makes good sense initially when the ignition is in left field, which in not uncommon. But the reality is you need to go back and forth between the two as you step through the process.
Ron
[/quote]
All great points.... but we are still overlooking an erratic vaccum needle at idle.
Been out on the road last few days. I don't know exactly which heads I have other than they are stealths, supposed to be ported, engine builder isn't talking. Any way I can tell for sure? Went with those spark plugs on a recommendation because it has a pinging problem since I got it. Since I know where it wants its initial timing, and I know it is pinging where it is at now, this has been constant, I think I might as well adjust distributer to get rid of this problem by dialing back total timing. It initially had an erratic needle, that I got rid of by adjusting the valves, then came back with the PCV valve, I will check that also. It is easy to adjust that for lower idle vacuum. I got the piston part # DRP50 52421 22663 when I pulled the oil pan to fix leaks which with ported stealth heads comes to 9.8 compression if I remember correctly. I will also redo my initial timing checks with a different timing light and vacuum guage this weekend after I curve the distributer. Jet plates aren't here yet, so that will have to wait for next weekend. SO, for this weekend,1 curve the dizzy, 2 disable pcv valve and reset timing and idle adjustments, 3 re adjust pcv valve, road test for timing. ???
Ok, so valve adjustment stopped the needle. Good. Now just cap the pcv temporary to make sure there is no problem, then move on.
YIPPIE. Finally runs nice timing at 24 initial, 34 total, orange springs from summit tuning kit, 3/8 turns on secondary idle mixture screws, long yellow springs in vacuum pods, 12 by at idle, no ping anywhere on 91 gas, no octane booster except what I had at 1/4 tank when I filled. Now I will fool with secondary jetting when plates get here and try bumping total timing up a little
Quote from: fizz on April 30, 2016, 04:36:08 PM
YIPPIE. Finally runs nice timing at 24 initial, 34 total, orange springs from summit tuning kit, 3/8 turns on secondary idle mixture screws, long yellow springs in vacuum pods, 12 by at idle, no ping anywhere on 91 gas, no octane booster except what I had at 1/4 tank when I filled. Now I will fool with secondary jetting when plates get here and try bumping total timing up a little
Good, glad to hear it.
Not to be Mr. Negativity, but it is really not clear to me how you will determine if any outboard carb jets changes are either helping, or hurting. Just like total timing, there is only one way to truly get these dialed in. Okay, maybe two.
Quote from: fizz on April 30, 2016, 04:36:08 PM
YIPPIE. Finally runs nice timing at 24 initial, 34 total, orange springs from summit tuning kit, 3/8 turns on secondary idle mixture screws, long yellow springs in vacuum pods, 12 by at idle, no ping anywhere on 91 gas, no octane booster except what I had at 1/4 tank when I filled. Now I will fool with secondary jetting when plates get here and try bumping total timing up a little
Good to hear! :yesnod:
Quote from: BSB67 on May 01, 2016, 06:39:17 AM
Quote from: fizz on April 30, 2016, 04:36:08 PM
YIPPIE. Finally runs nice timing at 24 initial, 34 total, orange springs from summit tuning kit, 3/8 turns on secondary idle mixture screws, long yellow springs in vacuum pods, 12 by at idle, no ping anywhere on 91 gas, no octane booster except what I had at 1/4 tank when I filled. Now I will fool with secondary jetting when plates get here and try bumping total timing up a little
Good, glad to hear it.
Not to be Mr. Negativity, but it is really not clear to me how you will determine if any outboard carb jets changes are either helping, or hurting. Just like total timing, there is only one way to truly get these dialed in. Okay, maybe two.
I agree with Russ....it might need another trip to the chassis dyno to see what's up. :scope:
You would be able to increase the timing slightly and see what effect that has on power and also monitor AFR's and adjust jetting accordingly. :yesnod:
Good work ! :2thumbs:
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on May 01, 2016, 08:29:26 AM
Quote from: BSB67 on May 01, 2016, 06:39:17 AM
Quote from: fizz on April 30, 2016, 04:36:08 PM
YIPPIE. Finally runs nice timing at 24 initial, 34 total, orange springs from summit tuning kit, 3/8 turns on secondary idle mixture screws, long yellow springs in vacuum pods, 12 by at idle, no ping anywhere on 91 gas, no octane booster except what I had at 1/4 tank when I filled. Now I will fool with secondary jetting when plates get here and try bumping total timing up a little
Good, glad to hear it.
Not to be Mr. Negativity, but it is really not clear to me how you will determine if any outboard carb jets changes are either helping, or hurting. Just like total timing, there is only one way to truly get these dialed in. Okay, maybe two.
I agree with Russ....it might need another trip to the chassis dyno to see what's up. :scope:
You would be able to increase the timing slightly and see what effect that has on power and also monitor AFR's and adjust jetting accordingly. :yesnod:
Good work ! :2thumbs:
Ron
Exactly.
I agree, I would have to find a shop that will actually do it or let me do it on their dyno, not to good of luck so far. It had been on an engine dyno then a chassis dyno. Both guys told me it was good to go. I don't even bring up money when I talk to them, so , any minnesota reccomendations?
You could always go to the track.
Probobly way I will go. Brainerd is about an hour away and they have test and tune nights
I am the caretaker of the six pak tuning guide. I compiled the info, copy edited it and added my own information but I did not write it. It is an ever - changing reference document as I read the boards to provide better information. I doubt you will get to see the latest rev. I provide technical support for a very technical product so technical writing and attention to detail is a requirement for effective service and information so technical documents are easy for me to write.
The biggest mistake everyone makes is the refusal to put the carbs in the proper baseline set up before trying to cure bog issues pinging etc. I am not sure if the OP has read the guide & baselined his carbs, but the tuning issue has been resolved and I learned some more tuning info for the guide. thank you
Now i am not sure what to make of the comment referring to the guide as "The one that tells you that gasoline is flammable" but my first impression is not good. We live in times where most have no good sense about life and need to be told everything. Now you all know who Tom Hoover is...RIP Tom. If you don't look it up. When these cars were just used cars in the 80s the NEHOA put on 2 meets per year & Tom was invited to one back then and he attended many there after. He would hold us spell bound for hours in tech seminars. Each and every time he would close the session by stopping with a big pause and tell us " ALWAYS be respectful of gasoline as it will burn and kill you." If that little disclaimer was not on the document I am sure there at least one person out there that would hurt themselves trying to tune a six pak and want to sue me because I did not tell them that...doh!
So if you want to reference something that works and is "popular"...I don't think it's that popular based on the posts about tuning...please use better words than referring to it as "The one that tells you that gasoline is flammable".
It is popular because the people that use it don't know any better. And there are a lot of those people.
The people that do know better, don't use it.
You like to mention Tom's name frequently. That seems important to you to mention. I've met him too, as most long in the tooth enthusiasts have.
I get that because you are the caretaker, you are going to defend the document. Myself and other might be a little more tolerant of the document's inaccuracies if the caretaker shared his personal history and experience with the six pack that support the claims and directives in the document and that supports himself and the document as truly a self made authority on the subject.
It reads like a poor compilation of some good, and not so good information that is not is not delivered in proper context or with appropriate qualifications. Kinda like getting apple pie recipe from 12 people and using a little bit from each one. That does not make it a good recipe or pie.
I drove my Charger daily for 6 years, my "work car". The 6BBL never missed a beat. Later after the 440 rebuild another 7 years, again nothing bad. You are on the path and learning so take your time and have fun! It's a hoot as your starting to see. :2thumbs:
B5, even though I realize I started this like a cub bear with boxing gloves, I learn a little and my car runs a little better every time I work on it now. I don't expect John Force to be calling me anytime soon, unless, maybe, he wants to build a racetrack, I could do that.
Crazy part is, I am doing better than the guys I paid to do it. And they are players in the Minneapolis/st paul area, Magazine article king of guys. WTF
Not uncommon, your 100% invested in getting it right! :cheers: (Unlike hired shops with no time for the learning curve.)
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YIPPIE. Finally runs nice timing at 24 initial, 34 total, orange springs from summit tuning kit, 3/8 turns on secondary idle mixture screws, long yellow springs in vacuum pods, 12 by at idle, no ping anywhere on 91 gas, no octane booster except what I had at 1/4 tank when I filled. Now I will fool with secondary jetting when plates get here and try bumping total timing up a little
Glad that it's running good. What do you mean by orange springs?
Quote from: 70sixpkrt on May 05, 2016, 07:05:04 PM
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YIPPIE. Finally runs nice timing at 24 initial, 34 total, orange springs from summit tuning kit, 3/8 turns on secondary idle mixture screws, long yellow springs in vacuum pods, 12 by at idle, no ping anywhere on 91 gas, no octane booster except what I had at 1/4 tank when I filled. Now I will fool with secondary jetting when plates get here and try bumping total timing up a little
Glad that it's running good. What do you mean by orange springs?
He's referring to the springs you attach to the advance plates in the distributor. Different Springs will either bring your timing in sooner, or later...
Got it. Thanks. I'm running a MSD distributor and have blue or silver springs.
Yup, firecore sold me a set of springs and advance keys that summit made up. Had a bunch of. Timing curves mapped out. The 2 orange springs came in at 1100 rpm and gave me 10 degrees advance at 2600, thereabouts
10 degrees additional I meam
Just wondering, have you changed your fuel squirt er nozzles on the center carb? On my build and with the A/F gauge I noticed that it would lean way out when I would punch it. I had to go up 2-3 sizes on the jet to keep it on track when accelerating to WOT.
Scott :cheers:
Not yet, havn't got track time yet
FWIW, 2 weekends ago went and put 500 miles on going to mopars in the park. Super happy w engine/trans on hiway, cruises @ 80mph, 2600 rpm in overdrive, about 14 mpg . Cruise and WOT at seems crisp and responsive. Not so happy with stop light idle and coming off throttle. Cold starts still sucked. Yesterday bushed all the throttle shaft bores and added a center carb metering block set up for my engine from Promax. Hit the key, started and idled like a champ. Test drive tonight, looks like I'm getting there.
Glad to hear it's sorted out. :2thumbs:
I took my car to a chassis dyno tuner to check my work and fine tune it with air/fuel guage. In the process I asked him to reset the valves.
Turns out the lifters are shot. Cam is a Lunati hyd roller lifter .560 lift 243/251 duration. He suspects that the valve springs are too light. I can't tell you what they are because my engine builder doesn't know what they are. Heads are stealth. We are going to change the springs out to the Lunati recommended ones.
Considering switching out the hyd roller lifters to solid roller lifters, we are seeing if Lunati agrees.
What do you guys think?
No expert, but I'd be inclined to stick with the hydraulic ones unless the cam and rest of the setup really necessitates it.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0510-solid-rollers-on-hydraulic-cams/
Lunati came back and ok'd plan to use solid lifters with this cam, .003 lash. so, new lifters and springs on the way.
Quote from: fizz on July 26, 2016, 02:37:02 PM
Lunati came back and ok'd plan to use solid lifters with this cam, .003 lash. so, new lifters and springs on the way.
.003 lash. With aluminum heads that seems awfully tight. I will wait for others with more engine knowledge to chime in on the matter. Pretty sure you will need to order new push rods as well. Solid rollers are shorter than hyd ones so you will need longer push rods IIRC.
Could be. Lunati made us believe not. Story of this project, get parts, order more. I wonder if I could make something out of a pair of Warped fabricated valve covers, 32 roller lifters, 32 expensive push rods, 16 valve springs, a brake master cylinder and booster, a billet crane cam, billet distributer, and an $850 modernized 8 track radio. All new junk.
I gotta ask, so your hyd roller lifters? what led your mechanic to the conclusion that they are bad? doesn't seem like they have been in that long correct?
I was having him readjust the valves, always a little noisy. Says when adjusting preload they were mushy, or collapsed. He thinks springs were too light, and lifters failed because of it.
Quote from: fizz on July 27, 2016, 07:42:47 AM
I was having him readjust the valves, always a little noisy. Says when adjusting preload they were mushy, or collapsed. He thinks springs were too light, and lifters failed because of it.
That is what they are supposed to do though. Should be able to push the plunger down with hand pressure on them, they only get hard when there is oil pressure. How was your oil pressure when it was running? Lifter bore clearance could be an issue though. I would have your mechanic measure each lifter and the bore for each one, have him measure at 9 to 3 position and the 12 to 6 position in each bore. If the lifters all measure .904 diameter and all the lifter bores measure .905 to .9055 you should be good to go, if any of the bores measure more than .002 larger than the lifter itself you could have oil pressure issues that will cause issues with individual lifters or multiple ones depending on clearances. My guess is there is nothing wrong with your current lifters. Preload adjustment for hydraulic rollers should be made with the lifters roller wheel on the heel of the cam, turn adjusters on rockers in just until the pushrod will not rotate by rubbing your finger across it, then set the preload which is usually an additional 1/2 to 3/4 turn of the adjuster (the lifters instructions should specify,) then lock it down and move on to the next one.
Oil pressure was 60 plus cold, never below 40 hot.
I will ask him specifics on how he checked it. I should know anyway.
Ok, sounds good. On the noise part, that is to be expected with an adjustable valve train, as long as the noise is not excessive they will have some noise to them.
With regards to a noisy valvetrain ; when using aluminum heads you need to account for expansion when setting lash or preload. The alloy heads grow more than a cast iron head when they reach operating temps. :yesnod:
Some rocker arms are noisier than others as well. Synthetic oil will also increase valvetrain noise. There are many variables to consider. :Twocents:
Ron
My education is expensive
1) I doubt that the hyd lifters "failed". Now, are they a junk high performance product, and not working well......could be.....
2) You have a serious mechanic issue if he does not know what valve spring is in your motor
3) 0.003" (cold) is about where I would start.
Quote from: fizz on July 27, 2016, 06:43:31 PM
My education is expensive
Lol, still cheaper than college. But I get what you mean. I too have a roller cam I bought for my motor only to find out later that I had no clue what I was doing and ended up having to order another one with completely different specs to match what I wanted to do with my motor. Live and learn 🙂
In regards to my mechanic, I indeed did have a serious problem with my original engine builder, which at this time, because of this I will reveal to be Sharadon Performance out of Hugo Mn.
We checked what we could with the pan off and think the short block is OK with decent parts. The valve train quite another. So far we replaced the crane cam/comp lifter combination, Those lifters definitely did fail. No resistance at all on some of the lifters when we adjusted them, that engine was really noisy. The cam they picked for me was too radical anyway so switched to a Lunati cam/lifter set. Hyd roller cause that's what Lunati recommended. I leaned hard for a solid roller lifter but Lunati talked me out of it.
After we got it running again I took it to TPIS from Chaska MN for chassis dyno tuning. Got it back running terrible, so I have done what I could with your guys help since, and seems OK.
Since I have little tuning experience, and have so much invested in this car, I decided to have it fined tuned on a Chassis dyno. At least this guy is close by and is a real car guy, albeit Ford, and seems thorough. He thought valve train was too noisy for hyd lifters so decided to adjust valves again. Which takes us to now.
So I will spend some more money, and hope for a decent outcome.
Quote from: BSB67 on May 04, 2016, 08:10:07 PM
It is popular because the people that use it don't know any better. And there are a lot of those people.
The people that do know better, don't use it.
You like to mention Tom's name frequently. That seems important to you to mention. I've met him too, as most long in the tooth enthusiasts have.
I get that because you are the caretaker, you are going to defend the document. Myself and other might be a little more tolerant of the document's inaccuracies if the caretaker shared his personal history and experience with the six pack that support the claims and directives in the document and that supports himself and the document as truly a self made authority on the subject.
It reads like a poor compilation of some good, and not so good information that is not is not delivered in proper context or with appropriate qualifications. Kinda like getting apple pie recipe from 12 people and using a little bit from each one. That does not make it a good recipe or pie.
Hey Ron
Nothing to defend-it's about having and using the proper tools and information to have the car perform properly & safely. Everyone wants immediate excellence yet is willing to settle on mediocrity. Since you are so experienced at tuning six paks I want you post an edited copy of the guide and explain the errors and inconsistencies to us dummies. I will be more than happy to correct any incorrect information and give you credit. You opened your mouth so get your foot out of it.
Note: The processes defined in the guide are tested by another person whom is very good at tuning. He lives over on moparts. The whole idea of the guide is to assist people with the proper information. Other than that gasoline is still very flammable and you should have respect for it. Don't be stupid.
Quote from: Tom Q on September 05, 2016, 06:26:11 AM
Quote from: BSB67 on May 04, 2016, 08:10:07 PM
if the caretaker shared his personal history and experience with the six pack that support the claims and directives in the document and that supports himself and the document as truly a self made authority on the subject.
It reads like a poor compilation of some good, and not so good information that is not is not delivered in proper context or with appropriate qualifications. Kinda like getting apple pie recipe from 12 people and using a little bit from each one. That does not make it a good recipe or pie.
.......I want you post an edited copy of the guide and explain the errors and inconsistencies to us dummies. I will be more than happy to correct any incorrect information and give you credit. You opened your mouth so get your foot out of it.
No, Only if you ask nice, and you give us your personnel history and experience with the 6 pack.
And my name is Russ