318 to a 402 LA Block Stroker, using the Edelbrock RPM package
Here is a thread that spanned a few months during the build. This will cover all the issues I encountered with this build.
Once I got the Charger home,
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/images/Ontrailer.jpg)
My buddy and I pulled the tired original 318 2 bbl from the 73 Charger HT. The engine had 102,000 miles on it and was used for towing a Shasta Camper from New Jersey to Maine.
Here is what we started with.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/318start.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/images/Beerbrew318out.jpg)
I am on the left, now don't think I let my buddy do all the work, I was so cruddy I had to change to go get the right bolts for the engine to go on the stand (and get more Beer from the store too!). Took about 10 hours with moderate Beer consumption.
With the engine out I had grand visions of a massive 416 LA Stroker (ya I know...why didn't you build a Big Block??? Everybody builds Big Blocks! I want something different), first step take it to the machine shop and see what is good. Fortunately, the block, crank and heads were all good. The crank and heads I managed to sell to the machine shop as cores. The machine shop did ultra sound to determine the cylinder thickness after the Magnafluxing and block cleaning. After a discussion with the shop we agreed on a 4.00" bore as reasonable, should be plenty of cylinder wall for cooling. What they did was offset bore the cylinders to ensure uniform thickness around the cylinder.
Here is the block freshened up a bit.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Block.JPG)
Piston choice was Diamond Forged Pistons P/N 51401
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/pistons.JPG)
Rods were Forged Eagle H beams P/N CRS6123C3D
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/rods.JPG)
Once the block was bored, we added a 4" Mopar Performance Forged crank P/N P5007252, the block had to be clearanced, here is a picture of a cylinder that has been clearanced.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Crank%20clearanced.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/BottomCylinders4-8.JPG)
Here is the motor starting to shape up.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/left%20bottom.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/lefttop.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/frontbottom.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Timing%20chain%202.jpg)
One of the big headaches was the bottom end Oil pan. Turns out the Main caps on the 73 LA Block were low profile. The Windage tray would not work with these caps. I ended up with Mildon P/N 32230 for a windage tray, with Milidon windage tray studs P/N MIL 81167 (Ford studs) that had to be machined to work. The Oil Pan was a Mildon P/N 30935.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/thelen%20002.jpg)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/thelen%20003.jpg)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/thelen%20005.jpg)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/thelen%20007.jpg)
We discussed the Cam and Head choice, and I decided to go with the Edelbrock Performer RPM line, and Comp Cams Roller rockers.
Heads Edelbrock P/N 60779
Intake Edelbrock P/N 7576
Roller Rocker Comp Cams COM132216
Heads on
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Heads1.jpg)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Heads2.jpg)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Heads3.jpg)
Heads and Comp Cams Roller Rockers
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Heads4.jpg)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Heads5.jpg)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Heads6.jpg)
The Intake is an Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap. Carb is a Performer 800 CFM with electric choke.
Here are the pics of the Motor just about done and ready for dyno.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/402a.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/402b.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/402i.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/402d.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/402e.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/402f.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/402g.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/402h.JPG)
Dyno Time
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/101_0801.JPG)
Here is a movie of the motor on the dyno
Right Click save as, else click the link and it should stream
http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/FilesDL/Dyno402DL.wmv
Here are the results
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Dynodata.jpg)
Here is my cost and parts used in this build
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/402Totals.jpg)
Quick lessons learned...
1. Mail Order the parts (paid no state tax on the mail order items that alone is worth a few hundred bucks).
2. Research the parts and hunt the best prices, some parts I did, some parts I let the shop get. After seeing their mark up, I will provide all the parts my next build.
Crap Thread exceeded 6000 characters!
OK continuing on!
Follow up issues...
I have done some detailing and started to add the engine accessories.
The first issue was the Edelbrock heads stick out further by about an inch where the lower alternator bracket connects to the head.
I had to cut the origional bracket about 1" and weld it back up.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/altbracket.JPG)
Next the Squareback Alternator touches the head and is limited on its adjustment arc.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/altissue.JPG)
The fix was to use the roundback Alternator, its close but it does clear ok.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Alternator1.JPG)
I intend to use the factory A/C on this build. Problem was that the Edelbrock Water pump was cast so that it interferes with the A/C Bracket.
I had to modify the bracket to get it to fit. The bottom of the bracket was straight...
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/AC1.JPG)
Once I got the bracket done, I discovered that the water pump also interfered with the double pully set up...
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/AC2.JPG)
Notice the fan is on backwards...yep...the Mopar performance fan new from Summit had a bent blade on the corner, and was incorrectly marked...
The Bend
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/MPfan1.JPG)
The markings on the wrong side! Mopar Performance Quality Control ????
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/MPfan3.JPG)
With the A/C issue I intend to change out the water pump now...
The Next issue was the TTI Headers I got from Mancini. The drivers side had a slip fit on the rear most tube (it was not welded).
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/AbodyTTI.JPG)
I was curious about it after looking at for a few weeks and I called TTI to ask if it was supposed to be that way. What I found out was the slip fit header is for A body cars. Manicini had sent me A Body Headers. TTI said that the passenger side header is identical for both A and B body cars. The drivers side is different. The A body has the slip fit drivers side rear tube, the B Body all the tubes are welded. Mancini has sent me the correct drivers side header, and I am waiting for the credit for the $300 they charged me to swap them out once they get the A-Body Header back.
Here is the Power Steering Setup, this went OK
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/PS1.JPG)
As it sits now
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Frontx800.JPG)
Will finish this post as I get time…more to come...
we need to get the proven combos section upo again
Thanks for posting your engine build story again, Beer! :cheers:
You'll have a perma-grin when you get around to running this thing in your Charger. :icon_smile_big:
Great thread. Keep it coming! :cheers:
Thanks Beer(http://bestsmileys.com/bouncing/6.gif)
Man, that's just sick ..... :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
Beer, this is an excellent project, hope you finish it soon, can't wait to see that thing running on the streets, when is your deathline for placing it back into the charger? I know hurry doesn't help, i know for experience....
BTW, you documented it very good, you have more videos? Man that engine deserve to appear on a magazine. I bet your are gonna run the 1/4 in a 13's with 395 HP to the wheels. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:
Congrats Beer !!!
:cheers:
charger_72_318
great pictures and read. the engine looks fantastic, almost good enough to make me want to biuld a smallblock. the one thing i dont understand is, how drunk was the cnc operator at edelbrock when they did the 'edelbrock" script on the sb mopar heads. thanks for sharing
Thanks guys,
Likely gonna remove the A/C...and add that after the car is running a while (maybe), so that is a change of plans. Looking for a rally dash with the Heating controls without A/C.
I have the body stripped. I am on a list to get the car restored, however I talked to the guy at the track last week and it seems he bumped my car back on his list. Once I get a car trailer, I may take the rolling chasis to some shops for some body work estimates. Still looking like 18 monthes or more till its assembled and running.
Had I to do it over again, I would likely have gone with a bigger Cam, however the machine shop says this is gonna have great street manners for the torque it has. I also have a spare intake that will be plumbed for Direct Port NO2. Likely a 100-150 shot (the all forged bottom end , the shop says should be good for a 200 shot), added after its first season of racing. Hoping for 7's in the 1/8. Be awhile til that happens though.
what a nice thread, so many pictures! so much info, thank you!
Thanks a ton BEER! :laugh:
This is one of the coolest threads ever! I gotta check in this forum more often. I'm thinking of stroking the 360 on my 74, using e-heads, comp rollers, etc. so this is right on the money for me and the pics are great.
What was the tally on the beer? ;D
You may be interested in this site ScottW
http://www.geocities.com/alwest_83/dyno
Its 360 Dyno testing with various combo's.
Not stroker, but it gives ya an idea.
It was not not the Beer that killed me it was all the dinners out with the wife to smoose over just how much I was spending on the motor!
I am pretty much a stroked 5b on that site, you can see that that they were able to get a tad more than I did out of it (unless its a "liberal" dyno that added some HP). I was hoping to have what package 8 had for power (450+).
I could have gotten the heads ported for $500 and maybe that would have got me up there (but I started to get cheap there in the end). For now though I am focusing on the body of the car.
Great thread Beer.. Like I told you long ago, (THIS BUD IS YOU).. :cheers:
:o :o :o More power ??..??..??
Jesus, if you keep adding more high performance components to that engine.... :rotz: :rotz: :rotz: I'm gonna have to apologize, 'cause your car will be running not the 1/8 as you said, but the 1/4 of mile at 7's easily :2thumbs:
Once again, congrats beer, this is an amazing creation, thanks for sharing
:cheers:
Ok here is the A/C removal and bracket pulley issues resolved
Changed out the Double alternator pulley for a single pulley, purchased from Mancini Racing. Cost $8 to have the double pulley pressed off and the single pulley pressed in at a local shop.
Here is the Mancini alternater Bracket. No issues at all (perfect fit) Part #MREPN-795$39.95 http://store.yahoo.com/chucker54/albrac1970up.html
I did get confused on the instructions. I wanted to put the alternator holding tab behind the bracket, naturally that did not work, I eventually looked at the instructions for the other part number (the written instructions for the 795 had a scemetic of the brackets, but did not show the alternator in at at all) and saw a drawing showing the correct installation and figured out the alternator tab goes in front of the bracket as pictured.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Altmancini.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/frontalt.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/topalt.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/pullyside.JPG)
The waterpump pully for the A/C is lined up on the front pulley on the crank and is smaller in Dia than the non A/C waterpump pulley.
The waterpump pully for the non-A/C is lined up on the second crank pulley and is larger than the A/C waterpump pulley.
The crank pulley for the A/C is a three pulley (same size pulleys)
The crank pulley for a non-A/C is two pulley's with the second one being slightly smaller than the front one.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/pullydif.JPG)
Cheers
Beer
Picture update without the A/C on.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/frontengine.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/rightlowerfront.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/leftrearengine.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/leftsideengine.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/rearofengine.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/rightengine.JPG)
Now THAT'S a comprehensive post! Thanks Beer.
Perfect! all brand new. :angel:
By the way, what's the current state of the car body?
I say Beer has a hand in the design of the new Challenger.. Who seconds the motion?? :icon_smile_question:
I think beer is crazy!!! But also a very original guy....
As he said, he could build a BB but instead he decided for something really different.
I say: give the man a job at MoPaR :2thumbs:
Cheers
:cheers:
LOL thanks guys, but I would likely "get run off" ("oil field" for fired) due to a lack of production. 18 months to get the motor done and way over budget!
The body is still totally stripped. I had gotten on the list of one of the top restore guys in the state, and was like fifth on his list. I saw him at the track end of Oct and went up to check my status on his list, and somehow, Despite him finishing the 71 Buick he was doing (I was five cars back including the Buick) I went to about 8 cars back (shoulda been 4th :nono: )...Needless to say at 4 months a car, and being bumped I dont think he will be doing the work.
I have approched a local shop I have seen really good work come out of, however when I approached them, they say there is no money in restore work (this I do not understand...a shop rate is a shop rate...). So I am patently waiting for my buddy to get a trailer so I can load up the rolling chasis and tow it to more shops to see who will do it :flame:
In the mean time I got the dash redone in Oct with a dashpad (did a thread on that here in interiors) and this time home I have the rear seat uphostery coming (will do a thread on that to).
So I am slowly plugging away...on da 73.
Oh, if I could have a hand in the Challenger it would certainly only be a two door, with the retro look of the origional (done better than the new Mustang), with and without functional ram air. Black gauges (not a fan of white) No V6's, only V-8's/V-10. Six Speed Manual/ 4 speed Auto with an overdrive, Factory headers 3" Duals with X pipe for exhaust, Sure Grip and Traction control as well a ABS (TC could be turned off on the fly), gear availibility from 4.11 (R/T) to 3.23 (Base model) and yes there would be a convertible RT.
Cheers
Beer
Shop rate is shop rate, but insurance paid collision repair is more like shop rate RT.
Had some time and decided to test fit the motor with the new oil pan. cudaken was right I will need to notch the K frame. The pan clears buts its just too close...
Here is the motor in, we are not really sure how the mounts go. I had pictures of the the passenger side mount when we took it off, I was sure that it goes to the front side of the ears on the block(based on the picture), when we went to install it, the engine was cockeyed in this configuration. The mount for the drivers side only fits behind the ears of the block...I still need to clear up this issue. Anyone with a smallblock 73 I could use pictures of your mounts and how they are installed on your block :icon_smile_question: I believe I have them right now, as the pan really can't stand to move forward or backward, its really tight.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/update1.JPG)
This correct for the drivers side engine mount?
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/update9.jpg)
Here is how I thought the passengers side was, the only way the engine would fit correctly was to put the mount behind
the ears so this photo is I beleive not how to do it???
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/update1.JPG)
Front with the engine in place
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/update2.JPG)
Front passenger side where cudaken notched his. Its not touching but its close and when the motor torques...likely it will rub.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/update3.JPG)
Tie rod is close too, its about an 1" away with the wheels centered, when the wheels are hard over it almost touches the pan.
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/update4.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/update5.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/update6.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/update8.JPG)
Cheers
Beer
Yearly update LOL.
Got sidetracked dabbling with the Corvette, got into tuning (EFI-Live, Nitrous for LS-1's, did some bolt on's). Started a side Biz that should generate a little cash (Filling Nitrous bottles, making custom panels for cars w/ various "accessory needs).
Here's some samples of the panel biz :)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Panels/C5_ZO6/Tom_K_ZO6%20Road_Race.jpg)
Below Two Stage Nitrous Panel is the one for my Personal Car
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Corvette/Panels/beerfullfacejan07.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Corvette/Panels/GaugeThreeswitchinconsole.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Panels/C5_ZO6/Spdnmanc.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Panels/F_Body/GLMSGaugewColor.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Panels/F_Body/TA3Switch.JPG)
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Corvette/Panels/DynoTuneCAMARO4switch.JPG)
Anyways hope to get the Charger project back on track this year using the proceeds of my new Nitrous enterprises!
Beer
Those switch panels look really good.
Quote from: Lostsheep on February 27, 2007, 02:16:35 PM
Those switch panels look really good.
:iagree: Pretty schweet! :2thumbs:
You guys should see his Vette!!! :METAL: :METAL: :METAL: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
v/r
Mike
Excellent post Beer ! :icon_smile_cool:
By far the most comprehensive and detailed writeup i've seen in a long time. :2thumbs:
Ron
i wish u good luck with your new business :icon_smile_wink:
:popcrn:
Did he burst into flames?
No, but we thought the truck was gonna blow up from the heat over the gas tank.
We get a little ridiculous with the burnouts every now and again.
v/r
Mike
Ever do any like this? ;D
(http://onfinite.com/libraries/89238/b86.jpg)
No, LOL. But i can be persuaded. :icon_smile_big:
Thanks Mike I will look into it. I need to stop dicking around with the Vette. Its just easier to do a couple hundred here on something that runs, than save up for the 10K body job.
The car is totally apart now, the Doors glass and hood on on just so the car cover don't sag. Bonus's at work Dried up too...Chevron used to spoil us, not no more...
I will be in town 15 march for three weeks gimme a call is you come down to Bath-Brunswick!
That's a GREAT READ Beer ! Fantastic job you guys did ! Thanks.
That is a quality thread.
Quote from: mopar1 on August 18, 2007, 09:04:57 PM
That is a quality thread.
Thanks :)
The body project is about to get kick started. :2thumbs:
Great thread :2thumbs: Any updates :shruggy:
Body should be going in somewhere (still looking for a shop) this Spring...looking to get transmission parts next couple months.
;D
Progress, in the engine bay at least...so a bump for the old thread...
Before
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/318start.JPG)
After
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Nov08/2008Nov27ENGINEFRNT.jpg)
Looking at changing the cam to a Comp Cams 305 w .525 lift, and having the Heads ported, when the car goes back to the body shop Spring 09. Now to find that radiator and to get the new radiator hoses...
Are you going to put the AC back together? I see a single pulley alternator. Have you considered a serpentine setup? They look awesome.
Not planning on putting the A/C back in anytime soon, goal is to get the car back on the road, so A/C is low priority now. Work around is using the 265 A/C as needed (roll down 2 windows and do 65 MPH), plus being in New England the heat is not so bad. The Edelbrock RPM intake does not have the bolt locations for the factory A/C Brackets, to put the A/C in, would probably have to convert to an "Hot rod" style aftermarket A/C setup, this is not out of the question, but its not going to happen over the next couple years.
Going with what I have now, have not considered serpentine system (Serpentine belts work pretty good on the GM stuff I am driving).
Looks great Beer... I LOVE to see before and after pics. together.... What a transition.. WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
:cheers:
Update to the update, got the headers in. The car will be returning to the body shop in a couple months, so I will pull everything out again.
Plans are to get the heads ported, and will likely upgrade the cam (So I will have the edelbrock cam/lifter set for sale this spring, been run only on the dyno)...Shooting for 475-500 HP. As well will probably go with a different carb per the advise from the site :)
Jim
Looking great Jim.
Quote from: mikepmcs on December 21, 2008, 12:02:48 PM
Looking great Jim.
Thanks Mike, I will shoot ya a PM and invite ya to the final assembly this Spring/Summer.
Jim
Looks fantastic! And thanks for the incredible write-up. Can't wait to see the future progress. :popcrn:
JUST WANTED TO SAY THANKS FOR THE GREAT THREAD, IT'S SHOWING ME ALL THE WORK I HAVE TO LOOK FORWARD TO. CAN'T WAIT TO SEE MORE. THANKS AGAIN! :2thumbs: :cheers: :popcrn:
Here is a pic of the car...This project going on 5 years now!
Coming home from the body shop :cheers:
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Jan2010%20001.jpg)
Home finding out what I am missing...i.e Bumper filler top front bumper :brickwall:
(http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Charger%20Pics/Assembly/Oct09/IMG_1870.JPG)
Still in assembly phase on the car now...Interior/tranny are next
Wheels have already been changed out, went with Police wheels.
Hey Beer, At least you are making progress. You really got to find that bumper filler. Not available anywhere. Ebay maybe. BTW, where is the snow? No snow? I thought you guys were getting hammered up there.
any updates on that killer project? My son and I have really enjoyed watching your progress. We did a rebuild of a 318 on my 72 charger but had to keep it very low budget. We look forward to seeing how yours turns out as a full bore restoration.
Thanks oldrock,
I am all stop right now, should start up again next few months.
I spun two connecting rod bearings on my other car (at the track spraying nitrous in Oct) and am putting $$ into that to get it running again.
Building a Forged LS6 382 Stroker for it. That will be going into the car in this June.
Sept-Nov 2010 should be the months of hopefully wrapping up the Charger and getting it running.
I am still looking for a better left rear light, and the top front bumper spacer.
I am still debating on ralley stripes down the side or maybe the bumble bee on the rear.
Transmission and interior parts are whats left, the Seats are redone ready in Black. I have the carpet, but I gotta go through the wiring harness as it has worn spots etc...planning on all new panels for interior (Black).
Jim
thanks for the update, Josh and will look forward to seeing the finished product. Be sure to take alot of pics of it.
Here is the most recent pic w/ the police wheels...Motor is not in Charger yet stance should look pretty cool when the Motor is in.
The Blue Vette (in garage) is the one with the spun Bearings, still has the car number from the track on the windshield. The motor is out, hood is removed on that one... :brickwall: The up side is without Nitrous the new motor should make that a low 11 second car (450-480 RWHP NA), 10's on spray (550-600HP). ;)
The trailer is also getting a little make over too while I wait on funds...new fenders and some paint.
:2thumbs: :cheers:
Hey thats a nice build you got there. Im looking to do this exact build with a 1980 318 just .060 over to give me a Mopar 396. Im wondering did you do anything to the oiling system internally on the engine? Ive read different article but would like to know from someone that put one together.
I don't think this question has been asked yet but I may have over looked it. What kind of mpg does a build like this get if it is geared right? And what would be the total cost for a build like this? I love that motor!! :cheers: