I've got a 440 that's 0.30 over w/ a mild cam - the guy who rebuilt it says it's a little over 400 HP to the flywheel and about 520 ft-lb of torque. I've got the 727 auto trans.
Choosing between Edelbrock 750 cfm Performer or Edelbrock 800 cfm Thunder Series AVS.
Any thoughts on what I should go with, or the +/- of each? Is 800 cfm too much for what I've got?
thanks
800 AVS is perfect for your setup. The airdoor is adjustable which controls the secondaries coming in smoothly. 800 is perfect size.
Sheldon
I would go the AVS 800 , very easy to adjust secondary's spring to air door, unless your experienced with carburettors the holly is a bit more complicated to tune,
The edelbrock is a direct copy almost of the original carters that came out on these cars, so if you want it to look correct also I would go with the 800
Quote from: fy469rtse on January 05, 2014, 05:38:05 AM
I would go the AVS 800 , very easy to adjust secondary's spring to air door, unless your experienced with carburettors the holly is a bit more complicated to tune,
The edelbrock is a direct copy almost of the original carters that came out on these cars, so if you want it to look correct also I would go with the 800
not really...the HOlley has more settings to adjust, but overall its a lot easier once you go step by step and then you realize with all the adjustments one can alot more choices to pick to fine tune it for more power. There was a sticky on the holley tunning somewhere..great thread and very easy to use.
Quote from: 1974dodgecharger on January 05, 2014, 05:45:44 AM
Quote from: fy469rtse on January 05, 2014, 05:38:05 AM
I would go the AVS 800 , very easy to adjust secondary's spring to air door, unless your experienced with carburettors the holly is a bit more complicated to tune,
The edelbrock is a direct copy almost of the original carters that came out on these cars, so if you want it to look correct also I would go with the 800
not really...the HOlley has more settings to adjust, but overall its a lot easier once you go step by step and then you realize with all the adjustments one can alot more choices to pick to fine tune it for more power. There was a sticky on the holley tunning somewhere..great thread and very easy to use.
whre can i find this sticky on the holley tuning? :cheers:
Thanks a lot guys. :cheers:
I guess the big question for me is whether 800 cfm is too much. Does anyone think I'll lose too much throttle response going higher than 750 cfm?
My self, Holley 750.
Far as tuning a 750 Holley, here are a few U Tube links.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=How+to+cahng+jets+in+a+750
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_lgTTkXJDM
Cuda Ken
Quote from: xs29bb1 on January 05, 2014, 03:30:00 PM
Thanks a lot guys. :cheers:
I guess the big question for me is whether 800 cfm is too much. Does anyone think I'll lose too much throttle response going higher than 750 cfm?
No, and no.
You did not say what you have or are planning, but I would recommend a dual plane intake manifold as well.
If you want to learn how a carburetor works, get the Holley. If you want to set the idle and drive, get the Edelbrock.
Yeah, I'm going Edelbrock either way. It's either the Performer 750 or the Thunder Series 800 AVS.
As long as the 800 isn't too much, I plan to go with that.
If the 440's healthy , 800 not too much, easy changes to jets and step rods, had 800 on a warm 383 , engine loved it
100% NO on the Edelbrock. If I didn't need a 'carb to run the Charger I'd send my 750 to you for free as I hate it that much. If you bother to become acquainted with your car, test, tune and tinker with it you'll realize just how limited the 'Eddy 'carbs are...
Quote from: Paul G on January 05, 2014, 05:52:15 PM
If you want to learn how a carburetor works, get the Holley. If you want to set the idle and drive, get the Edelbrock.
Paul is right there between the two.
I personally like the Holleys because I can adjust the nozzles, pump cams, etc....and tweak it to what I think its good or bad thats just me though. If someone goes back on the edelbrock and its non adjustable then you will need to get it rebuilt. Just my lonely mans opinion.......
Wow, lots of different opinions - thanks to all who took the time to respond!
myk - so the Thunder Series AVS isn't tunable enough in your opinion?
IMO I wouldn't put a Holley on my Mopar if I was paid to . There is a reason Mopar used Carters ( with a few exceptions ) . But do as you see fit .
Quote from: myk on January 06, 2014, 03:22:32 AM
100% NO on the Edelbrock. If I didn't need a 'carb to run the Charger I'd send my 750 to you for free as I hate it that much. If you bother to become acquainted with your car, test, tune and tinker with it you'll realize just how limited the 'Eddy 'carbs are...
:2thumbs:
Quote from: hemihead on January 06, 2014, 07:30:55 PM
IMO I wouldn't put a Holley on my Mopar if I was paid to . There is a reason Mopar used Carters ( with a few exceptions ) . But do as you see fit .
yeah the reason is the bean counters in management, they were the cheapest bid from Carter & Holley's were originally used on many Mopars out of the factory too, by the way...
IMHFO, it's just that from someone who has run all three types of 4-bbl's on many different combos, if your dead set on using a Carter style carburetor get a original AVS of AFB or even a Thermoquad, not a Edelbrock Carter/Weber copy, Edelbrock makes some great parts but carbs aren't one of them... :Twocents: personally I'd buy a Quickfuel SL or QFT 800 Vacuum Secondary with electric choke & never look back, way better carbs hands down... but it's your car, do what you think is right...
I'm running the AVS for street and economy, tuning it very easy carb but it has its limitations for me, for serious street and track use have one of the proform range , there's company's out there that take what holly made and improve it,
Have a look at there street vacuum secondary range and go from there, you can't go wrong 750 should do it for a mild to stock 440 , Ron on here put me on to these and there the better version of a holly,
It is pretty well known and documented that the Edelbrock 1407 is a turd, and tuning it is both too much effort and beyond the skills of most hobbyists. Find an original carter AFB or AVS with 1 11/16 throttle bores and it will outperform the 1407 in every measure.
However, that is not the case with all Edelbrock carbs, and most notably the 800 cfm Thunder. There are engine builders/dyno operators that have concluded that the 1407 is junk, but will highly recommend the 1812 for some applications based on their findings on the dyno. FWIW
Quote from: Budnicks on January 06, 2014, 07:53:18 PM
IMHFO, it's just that from someone who has run all three types of 4-bbl's on many different combos, if your dead set on using a Carter style carburetor get a original AVS of AFB or even a Thermoquad, not a Edelbrock Carter/Weber copy, Edelbrock makes some great parts but carbs aren't one of them... :Twocents: personally I'd buy a Quickfuel SL or QFT 800 Vacuum Secondary with electric choke & never look back, way better carbs hands down... but it's your car, do what you think is right...
what if he wants a 1000 series plus dominator on his stock 318 shouldnt we steer him away from that :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: xs29bb1 on January 06, 2014, 11:49:02 AM
Wow, lots of different opinions - thanks to all who took the time to respond!
myk - so the Thunder Series AVS isn't tunable enough in your opinion?
Honestly I'm speaking in regards to the original Performer line; I have the 1411/750 cfm on my Charger. Even though I don't run the Thunder I can't imagine they're more different than the Performer 'carbs. Holley 'carbs have so many variables to tune that it seems like a nightmare at first, but then you realize that the wide range of tunability is there for a reason. Clearly, I'm not the only one that feels this way about these 'carbs, so keep asking questions and talking and then make your choice...
Quote from: myk on January 07, 2014, 08:52:26 AM
Quote from: xs29bb1 on January 06, 2014, 11:49:02 AM
Wow, lots of different opinions - thanks to all who took the time to respond!
myk - so the Thunder Series AVS isn't tunable enough in your opinion?
Honestly I'm speaking in regards to the original Performer line; I have the 1411/750 cfm on my Charger. Even though I don't run the Thunder I can't imagine they're more different than the Performer 'carbs. Holley 'carbs have so many variables to tune that it seems like a nightmare at first, but then you realize that the wide range of tunability is there for a reason. Clearly, I'm not the only one that feels this way about these 'carbs, so keep asking questions and talking and then make your choice...
I agree with you about the(non)performer carbs,but the Avs Thunder series is an awsome carb for a mild build. I love Holleys when you start getting wild and bigger stroke etc.
Quote from: Charger-Bodie on January 07, 2014, 09:02:56 AM
Quote from: myk on January 07, 2014, 08:52:26 AM
Quote from: xs29bb1 on January 06, 2014, 11:49:02 AM
Wow, lots of different opinions - thanks to all who took the time to respond!
myk - so the Thunder Series AVS isn't tunable enough in your opinion?
Honestly I'm speaking in regards to the original Performer line; I have the 1411/750 cfm on my Charger. Even though I don't run the Thunder I can't imagine they're more different than the Performer 'carbs. Holley 'carbs have so many variables to tune that it seems like a nightmare at first, but then you realize that the wide range of tunability is there for a reason. Clearly, I'm not the only one that feels this way about these 'carbs, so keep asking questions and talking and then make your choice...
I agree with you about the(non)performer carbs,but the Avs Thunder series is an awsome carb for a mild build. I love Holleys when you start getting wild and bigger stroke etc.
What is the difference between the Performer and the Thunder?
I picked up a used Holley 670 a while back. Put a kit in it, put it on the 360 and it was running extremely lean. Had to up the jetting 4 sizes front and back to get it to run right. Larger squirter and play with the pump cams to eliminate an off idle bog. It runs like a scalded dog now.
That is what you do with a Holley. They are great carbs to get the max power out of your set up. But you need to tune them for your engine. They wont run well right out of the box, in a lot of cases. Where as an Eddy will run well most times, just harder for simple guy like me to tune an Eddy for max performance.
Myk, the biggest difference is that the Performer is an AFB and the Thunder is an AVS.
Quote from: Ghoste on January 07, 2014, 09:53:08 AM
Myk, the biggest difference is that the Performer is an AFB and the Thunder is an AVS.
I'm going to have to look into this AVS thing. Edelbrock's "Performer" series, be it their carbs or manifolds, have left a bad taste in the Charger's mouth so we're both a little skeptical...
The original AVS had a little more tuning ability with three step rods and an "air valve secondary" that could be adjusted for opening rate as opposed to the AFB with its counterweighted blade.
I've got Edelbrocks on my 318 & 440 Chargers. Great on the 318, dead spot on the bottom end for the 440.
I started with a 750, tuned it with the kit, tried several tricks, sold it, bought the 800, same story. The 440 has a mild build, 415 hp, 485 ft lbs.
Buy a Holly and be happy! Or make me happy and buy my Edelbrock.
With your application. Go with a Holley 750. Bolt it on and forget your troubles.
:yesnod: And make it a vacuum secodary one. :Twocents:
Quote from: Ghoste on January 07, 2014, 07:01:22 PM
:yesnod: And make it a vacuum secodary one. :Twocents:
Why is that, Ghoste?
Most street applications will be easier to run with a secondary system that opens based on engine demand as determined by the vacuum setting. And it will be easier on fuel too.
Now if its more about performance...
Quote from: myk on January 07, 2014, 11:46:29 AM
Quote from: Ghoste on January 07, 2014, 09:53:08 AM
Myk, the biggest difference is that the Performer is an AFB and the Thunder is an AVS.
I'm going to have to look into this AVS thing. Edelbrock's "Performer" series, be it their carbs or manifolds, have left a bad taste in the Charger's mouth so we're both a little skeptical...
It's a WAY better carb Myk. Same as you I ran the 1411 for years and it always had stumbling problems, no matter how may times I tuned it. Switched to the 800 Thunder and right out of the box it was a big difference. No more stumbling and just felt better. If I had a bigger motor, was racing, or just wanted the biggest carb out there I would go with a holley or proform. But for driving around town the edelbrock thunder AVS works for me.
Thanks for all the responses - I've decided to go w/ the Thunder Series 800. (the Performer doesn't appear to be a good choice)
I may be wrong, but from everybody I talked to, the Holley seems to be preferred by guys who are either taking the car to the track or are trying to get every last ounce of performance out of it, and on the other end, the Performer Edelbrock is just too limited.
The Thunder AVS seems to be more of what I'm going to want for the kind of build I have, and the fact that the car is mainly going to be driven around town. Again, I could be wrong, but as I average all of the responses here and listen to the guys I've talked to about it - it seems like the Thunder Series AVS will be a good carb for me.
...... and down the line, if I'm really unhappy w/ it, I'll deal w/ it then.
Thanks again guys - much appreciated! :cheers: :cheers:
Just get one of there jet metering rod kits with it, out of the box should start straight up, carby will come with a CD on basic tuning to carb, very easy , good insurance if running rich or lean ,
Quote from: WHITE AND RED 69 on January 07, 2014, 07:20:10 PM
Quote from: myk on January 07, 2014, 11:46:29 AM
Quote from: Ghoste on January 07, 2014, 09:53:08 AM
Myk, the biggest difference is that the Performer is an AFB and the Thunder is an AVS.
I'm going to have to look into this AVS thing. Edelbrock's "Performer" series, be it their carbs or manifolds, have left a bad taste in the Charger's mouth so we're both a little skeptical...
It's a WAY better carb Myk. Same as you I ran the 1411 for years and it always had stumbling problems, no matter how may times I tuned it. Switched to the 800 Thunder and right out of the box it was a big difference. No more stumbling and just felt better. If I had a bigger motor, was racing, or just wanted the biggest carb out there I would go with a holley or proform. But for driving around town the edelbrock thunder AVS works for me.
Yup. I'm no master-tuner but I'm pretty sure I've tweaked the 'Eddy Performer as far as it can go. Between you and Ghoste telling me that the AVS Thunder is a better 'carb I just might have to give it a try. DIE, PERFORMER DIE!!!!
BTW, wouldn't the 800cfm be too much for my stock 440?
The AFB isn't horrible but it does take a almost lost art to tune it. It is limited though and it doesn't help that Edelbrock has their version calibrated lean.
The AVS style (Thunder series) is going to allow a little more tuning but as mentioned, these Carter styled ones are more of a plug and play carb, they are best for stock replacement or someone who does not want to be messing around with a carb adjustment in my opinion.
As for size Myk, you SHOULD be alright. 800 is big for a 440 but this carb shouldn't allow any more air in than the engine can take. The "air valve" on the top isn't operated by vacuum it works off of airflow. There are a pair of conventional throttle blades in the base that work by mechanical linkage but the top blade only lets in what the engine will take.
For the OP with a fairly mild build the 800 Thunder should work OK. When you step up the combo with more cam and head flow you also need a carb that has the matching fuel curve. This is where the adjustability of a Holley has an advantage. An agressive build requires an agressive fuel curve. There's more to it than just CFM. ;)
Ron
Yes, The Eddycarters should be look at as stock replacements.
I personally would go with a Holley or a Demon because the Edelbrock carbs are too limited, but I get the feeling you are looking for more of a daily driver with some get up and go when desired. Therefore, I think you made the right decision for you. If you start taking it to the track, you're going to want to change it
Its weird but I have had good and bad luck with both edelbrocks and holleys!! Have had more luck with the holley's for big blocks in the 750 and 850 cfm range. I have had a few good runnung 600 edelbrocks but tried a couple of 750's and didn't like the 750's at all. Have never tried an AVS 800 but I have had a 500 AVS and a 650 AVS and they were very decent and good running carbs, but if you want good driveability,performance and no bogging I would say go with a holley 750 vaccum secondary or even a 750 double pumper which was what I had on my 440 and was the best running carb I have ever had. I went up to a 493 ci and upgraded to an 850 holley double pumper which runs great just bolted on there and set the floats and set the mixture screws and that was all. I wish I didn't but I sold the 750 double pumper I had to a friend of mine needing a carb for a 454 chevelle. It was a great carb and it showed me a double pumper isn't just a race carb but a great street carb too!!
Ok, so it seems we're all under the agreement that the 'Eddy is a plug and drive 'carb, and the Holley is a 'max tuning 'carb. But...since we're all headed in the direction of optimum performance anyway, wouldn't it be easier, more financially sound to just buy the Holley right off of the bat? Buy once, cry once and all that?
For the most part, yes. But there are some who just want to drive it as is.
Honestly guys, I'm really not following. There is plenty of adjustability of the Eddy carbs. Arguably more than the typical hobbyist will use or understand. There is more adjustability in the Eddy than the Holley's had in the 70s, 80s and 90s. There is a guy here running 11.5s at over 120 mph in a pretty mild set-up using an Eddy 800 AVS Thunder. Would a Holley be better, probably. But the notion that the Eddy is a go slow non-adjustable carb is simply not accurate.
Best thing I did was find new old stock of the metering rods, originals had three steps to them, improved the tuning of them dramatically, etc stumbles and such
But they will run lean at the top end if you really want to get on it with street tune
I don't think anyone meant Edelbrock carbs are go slow or non adjustable. I view them as a stock replacement because for the money why spend more to get the better adjustability of the Holley if you don't need it.
I will forever be a Holley man.
Any time I see an Edelbrock carb on a car it is a red flag to me. Yes, I'm probably closed minded and maybe flat-out wrong about that. (So :cheers: to anyone who goes fast with theirs or loves them.) But in my mind, they've been condemned by personal experience and I have no incentive to ever own another Edelbrock. Nor would I use vacuum carbs when mechanicals can live perfectly normal lives on the street. If cost was a consideration, I would rather take my chances with a good used double pumper. If mileage was a great concern, I wouldn't own a big block. Just my reasoning...
By the way, I bought a new Holley Avenger based partly on some comments found on this site. Fine carb - yet back to a double pumper I promptly went.
Curious; the AVS is supposed to be Edelbrock's next generation of 'carbs yet the older Performer still fetches quite a premium, new or used... :shruggy:
No doubt the AVS series carbs are better carbs than the performer carbs from my experiance. As far as a 600 holley vaccum secondary carb I have only had about one of those that was worth having. They are holley's cheapest go to carb tho. Get what you pay for of course!! :yesnod: I had a 600 holley vaccum carb on a 69 ford F100 I had built the engine in and it was mildly built with a small cam, headers and a edelbrock performer intake. It was a 390 engine but I couldn't get the holley 600 to run right at all. Bought a brand new 600 holley and it was junk too!! Took it back and swapped it for a 1405 performer 600 edelbrock and that engine never ran better!! That 390 loved that carb!! I had to do some minor jet changing and swapped up to the next richer metering rods and that was it. It was a great carb with no bogs or stumbles!! Got a 600 edelbrock performer on my dads old 72 F100 farm truck that runs perfect too!! When I bought my charger I felt obligated to run the edelbrock style carbs on there since they actually came on there from the factory and I did for a long time. The 650 AVS thunder series was a good carb without a doubt but I rebuilt a 750 holley double pumper for a friend and decided to set it on my 383 just to run it and set the floats and check it for leaks and set the mixture screws. I bolted that thing on there and started it up and it ran different!!! It revved better and seemed to be more powerful just with me revving it sitting still!!! After that I decided to hook up the gas cable and take it up the road just to see if it was any different. Different isn't the word,AWESOME is the word!!!! :yesnod: I actually traded my buddy out of that double pumper and it ran on my 383 for about 8 months until I swapped in the 440 and it was on the 440 for three more years after that. I know dodge came with carter carbs but from my experiance all the big blocks I have ever had or worked on sure like the holley style carbs. The only tuning I did on the holley carb was jet it up a couple of sizes and that was it.Like I posted before I recently bought an 850 holley double pumper and haven't had it apart at all. I bolted it on and made the normal adjustments and just drive it. Why buy a carb you almost know you are gonna have to tune and tune on it to get it to be the way you want when you can buy one that will run your car pretty good just bolting it on there. I did try a holley street avenger one time. A good running carb like the AVS but still the double pumper is the best carb in my opinion. The 750 holley vaccum secondary carbs are my second choice for a 750 cfm size carb. I actually believe the old factory AVS carters are better than the new edelbrock clones of these old carbs. I have a 71 model 625 cfm AVS in my shop that runs better than most of the carbs I rebuild for people. I wish I knew why it runs so good because it sure doesn't look like a good carb but it does. More than likely the older one's were just better. Has anyone tried one of these new summit racing carbs?? They look like the old holley 4010 and 4011 series carbs but I have yet to talk to anyone that has tried one. They are priced alot cheaper than all the other carbs on the market and that worries me to think they may not be any good but you never know?? :shruggy:
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/mykranili/WALL_OF_TEXT_zps7a920e40.jpg) (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/mykranili/media/WALL_OF_TEXT_zps7a920e40.jpg.html)
Quote from: 69wannabe on January 09, 2014, 07:56:13 PM
No doubt the AVS series carbs are better carbs than the performer carbs from my experiance. As far as a 600 holley vaccum secondary carb I have only had about one of those that was worth having. They are holley's cheapest go to carb tho. Get what you pay for of course!! :yesnod: I had a 600 holley vaccum carb on a 69 ford F100 I had built the engine in and it was mildly built with a small cam, headers and a edelbrock performer intake. It was a 390 engine but I couldn't get the holley 600 to run right at all. Bought a brand new 600 holley and it was junk too!! Took it back and swapped it for a 1405 performer 600 edelbrock and that engine never ran better!! That 390 loved that carb!! I had to do some minor jet changing and swapped up to the next richer metering rods and that was it. It was a great carb with no bogs or stumbles!! Got a 600 edelbrock performer on my dads old 72 F100 farm truck that runs perfect too!! When I bought my charger I felt obligated to run the edelbrock style carbs on there since they actually came on there from the factory and I did for a long time. The 650 AVS thunder series was a good carb without a doubt but I rebuilt a 750 holley double pumper for a friend and decided to set it on my 383 just to run it and set the floats and check it for leaks and set the mixture screws. I bolted that thing on there and started it up and it ran different!!! It revved better and seemed to be more powerful just with me revving it sitting still!!! After that I decided to hook up the gas cable and take it up the road just to see if it was any different. Different isn't the word,AWESOME is the word!!!! :yesnod: I actually traded my buddy out of that double pumper and it ran on my 383 for about 8 months until I swapped in the 440 and it was on the 440 for three more years after that. I know dodge came with carter carbs but from my experiance all the big blocks I have ever had or worked on sure like the holley style carbs. The only tuning I did on the holley carb was jet it up a couple of sizes and that was it.Like I posted before I recently bought an 850 holley double pumper and haven't had it apart at all. I bolted it on and made the normal adjustments and just drive it. Why buy a carb you almost know you are gonna have to tune and tune on it to get it to be the way you want when you can buy one that will run your car pretty good just bolting it on there. I did try a holley street avenger one time. A good running carb like the AVS but still the double pumper is the best carb in my opinion. The 750 holley vaccum secondary carbs are my second choice for a 750 cfm size carb. I actually believe the old factory AVS carters are better than the new edelbrock clones of these old carbs. I have a 71 model 625 cfm AVS in my shop that runs better than most of the carbs I rebuild for people. I wish I knew why it runs so good because it sure doesn't look like a good carb but it does. More than likely the older one's were just better. Has anyone tried one of these new summit racing carbs?? They look like the old holley 4010 and 4011 series carbs but I have yet to talk to anyone that has tried one. They are priced alot cheaper than all the other carbs on the market and that worries me to think they may not be any good but you never know?? :shruggy:
I read this a couple of times----?? I will try again. It seems that at least it says that carbs work.
If you want it to just run put an edelbrock on it and if you want it to run good and be powerful put a holley on it.
Quote from: 69wannabe on January 12, 2014, 10:20:15 PM
If you want it to just run put an edelbrock on it and if you want it to run good and be powerful put a holley on it.
X2...He'll learn the hard way. :Twocents:
I would like a holley 850 dp but they say its overkill......for my 383 witu nasty 509 cam.
I have 440 with a 509 cam 750 elbrock. And now I am putting a ch4b intake on. Is this over kill.
Quote from: 1974dodgecharger on January 13, 2014, 04:09:50 PM
I would like a holley 850 dp but they say its overkill......for my 383 witu nasty 509 cam.
A holley 750 DP would be a good size carb for your 383 with that big cam. :yesnod:
Quote from: billssuperbird on January 13, 2014, 04:55:18 PM
I have 440 with a 509 cam 750 elbrock. And now I am putting a ch4b intake on. Is this over kill.
The CH4B intake is a good intake for power and driveability. If you were running a good holley 750 on there you would notice a big difference in performance.
What is the best way to set air fuel mix on a 750 elbrock and adle.
:popcrn:
Quote from: billssuperbird on January 16, 2014, 06:51:19 AM
What is the best way to set air fuel mix on a 750 elbrock and adle.
Vacuum gauge and/or 'tach. With the engine warm, set the desired RPM. Then, make minute adjustments to each idle-air-screw until maximum vacuum or RPM is achieved. Then, reset the idle speed to the desired rate...
Thank you.