I installed an AEM 02 gauge for my 440. I put it approx 10 " back after the header collector. I installed a bung in each pipe so that I can switch if I want.
Here is the info I got from my first real ride with the gauge hooked up.
Idle in gear once warm = 13.5 - 13.8
Cruise = 13.0- 13.5
Slight throttle off of cruise gives me a lean blip up to 16.0 will return back to 13.0ish if throttle is held
More aggressive throttle threw out power band gives me in the 12.8 - 13.5
I did a WOT from 45 MPH it shot it 11.0 and then 10.0 before I let off ( approx 4500 RPM)
The Carb is a 4160 (3310-5) 750cfm vac. Sec ( Old school but its what I have now. )
So the slight blip off cruise is the accelerator cam I believe. It has factory orange cam, I tried both holes with no noticeable change. The blip is so small I wonder if I need to worry about it. But then again will happen often with street car.
I am happy with cruise, The agrressive and WOT are to rich, should I drop a jet size or maybe 2? This will probably bring my cruise closer to 14 as well ? I don't think I need to touch the nozzel or Power Valve??
motor is mild 440
274 comp cams
RPM Eldelbrock intake
headman ceramic 1 3/4 headers
2 1/2 X pipe
906 Heads bowl clean up, gasket matched
base timing 18
Need more shot for that "tip in" lean condition. Cruise should be 14.5-15 so going up 2-3 jets will help WOT and your cruise at the same time. WOT should be like 12.5ish.
I wouldn't worry too much about the tip in unless it's causing a stumble.
would I not want to go down in jet size? I am running rich at wot and slight at cruise and mild acceleration?
Yea, I ment go leaner. So down a couple sizes, sorry.
Been on EFI for so long now that "going up' means leaning it out to me.
This is your first ride. Be careful with trying to make it "perfect" as it's a carb and won't auto-adjust to temperature, humidity, or altitude/barometric pressure. My wideband shows some fairly drastic swings even on successive days (or say, hanging out at a show during the day then going on a cruise at night). For example, I tuned the car originally last fall in 50-60 degree dry weather. Pulling it out this spring in 87 degrees and 80% humidity and you'd have thought it wasn't tuned at all! Now that it's hot, my numbers are a bit richer than yours across the board (except highway cruise but I also have a Six Pack). I drive a lot and don't like futzing with adjustments so I picked a happy place in the middle. Lean and WOT don't mix!
Troy
good point. I know I wot get 14.0 across the board and if I did it wouldn't be the same the next day ! I just feel like I still have some play room while still being on the safe side
It sounds like you are set up pretty close. I started tinkering with something like that and made it worse before making it better, but I learned a whole lot in the process. As noted, there are day to day variations and variations depending on what you do.
leave it alone, you are very close as is, as said by Troy, when the weather changes so will the afr. I got so picky on mine it drove me NUTS, I got it close & disconnected the wide band so I dont have to look at it. :yesnod:
ok . I will take it for a few more trips and see what I get. The 10.0 is pretty rich though? I will be taking it to the track eventually. I must be leaving sone power on the table with 10.0 Wot ?
10:1 is WAY too rich. You will wash cylinders down at that AFR.
Drop 2 jet sizes and just watch the idle/cruise for being too lean and you should be perfect.
Or get EFI which constantly is adjusting to what you command for AFR.... :coolgleamA:
Actually your idle is set by the screws on the side of the carb. So you should be able to dial that in(idle) by watching the gauge and adjusting each side.
Quote from: 68CoronetRT on July 18, 2017, 05:47:12 PM
10:1 is WAY too rich. You will wash cylinders down at that AFR.
Drop 2 jet sizes and just watch the idle/cruise for being too lean and you should be perfect.
Or get EFI which constantly is adjusting to what you command for AFR.... :coolgleamA:
Actually your idle is set by the screws on the side of the carb. So you should be able to dial that in(idle) by watching the gauge and adjusting each side.
sorry I missed the 11,10 to one, that does need to be leaned out .
Quote from: cdr on July 18, 2017, 04:29:31 PM
leave it alone, you are very close as is, as said by Troy, when the weather changes so will the afr. I got so picky on mine it drove me NUTS, I got it close & disconnected the wide band so I dont have to look at it. :yesnod:
That is funny. I am tempted to do the same.
I put mine in a few years back. I played with jets and power valves, idle mixture settings... I don't think an 850 VS carburetor will ever be as crisp and clean as EFI bit I'm okay with it. I had the car out last Sunday in 106 degree weather and it ran perfectly. No stumbles, no trouble restarting, no bad road manners. I need to install a fan shroud before I put in the A/C. The temperature never exceeded 210 and never even hinted that it would boil over.
Are the o2's heated, if not that far back will throw off your readings.
I think some are and some aren't. I believe the one I have (I don't know about the OP's) is heated.
A sensor is nice, but what do the plugs say?
Quote from: XH29N0G on July 19, 2017, 10:48:59 AM
I think some are and some aren't. I believe the one I have (I don't know about the OP's) is heated.
Heated are usually 3 or 4 wire and non-heated are usually 2 wires, though there are exceptions, if you have a wire hooked up to a power source than it is a heated o2.
Quote from: randy73 on July 19, 2017, 10:43:16 AM
Are the o2's heated, if not that far back will throw off your readings.
Mine is.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 19, 2017, 11:27:16 AM
A sensor is nice, but what do the plugs say?
I got the sensor so I wouldn't have to pull plugs. I'd rather have readings 100 times per second with data logging capability than to fight with plugs on a hot 440 any day. ;)
Troy
For what it's worth WOT should be 13-13.5 for a naturally aspirated motor, 11.5-12.5 is generally for forced induction. That was the goal when I worked the Dyno in a previous life. As long as you don't change altitude you will be fine. Note: the motor will produce the best power at the 13-13.5 range from my testing on the dyno. I always went by exhaust temp and O2,but that's a different topic.
Quote from: Troy on July 19, 2017, 12:48:33 PM
Quote from: randy73 on July 19, 2017, 10:43:16 AM
Are the o2's heated, if not that far back will throw off your readings.
Mine is.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 19, 2017, 11:27:16 AM
A sensor is nice, but what do the plugs say?
I got the sensor so I wouldn't have to pull plugs. I'd rather have readings 100 times per second with data logging capability than to fight with plugs on a hot 440 any day. ;)
Troy
LoL, not that you could tell, but I was replying to the OP.
I went with the AEM gauge and it is a heated sensor. I will pull the plugs again soon . but I wanted to make sure I wasn't running to lean in general
Quote from: randy73 on July 19, 2017, 01:50:28 PM
Quote from: Troy on July 19, 2017, 12:48:33 PM
Quote from: randy73 on July 19, 2017, 10:43:16 AM
Are the o2's heated, if not that far back will throw off your readings.
Mine is.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 19, 2017, 11:27:16 AM
A sensor is nice, but what do the plugs say?
I got the sensor so I wouldn't have to pull plugs. I'd rather have readings 100 times per second with data logging capability than to fight with plugs on a hot 440 any day. ;)
Troy
LoL, not that you could tell, but I was replying to the OP.
He said he was using an AEM. I didn't say what mine was. I don't recall any wideband guages that use a 2 wire sensor though. :)
Troy
There out there, have them on my Lotus
The best part about going to Holley EFI or Fitech's system is you get a 300$ o2 sensor included! For only like 700$ more look at how much more you get!
And they should be right after the collector or in the collector if your running headers. And only 1 bank is really required.
I've pulled plugs twice and they look about how they should for what the EFI computer is telling me.
Quote from: 68CoronetRT on July 19, 2017, 05:51:14 PM
The best part about going to Holley EFI or Fitech's system is you get a 300$ o2 sensor included! For only like 700$ more look at how much more you get!
And they should be right after the collector or in the collector if your running headers. And only 1 bank is really required.
I've pulled plugs twice and they look about how they should for what the EFI computer is telling me.
haha are you a sales man !? I like tinkering so the carb is good for me ! I went and grabbed a set of 69 jets thinking I had 71 in there. Unfortunately there were 72 haha . None the less threw in the 69s , cruise was bang on 14.5 -7 . But as soon as I gave it throttle it would lean out and bog / stumble . If I eased on very light 14.7 - 15.3 . So way to lean . So my thoughts are if i bump up to 70s I should be pretty good. But I think my off cruise / light throttle might still stumble a bit.
I don't think a accel cam will do it I think I need to step up a nozzle size as well ? Since i was leaning out quite a bit even with the 72s in
Squirter size will help. You should have 2 on the carb. And they are like jets, you go up and down in size. That's the little extra pump shot you need to help it not lean out when you get on it.
All I'm sayin is EFI is nice :lol:. I was over tinkering, just push a touch screen and away you go.
question ..... when I am running rich at wot I am running on the power valve circuit correct ? A higher power valve 6.5 opposed to 4.5. Would allow more gas sooner ? 4.5 would open later and possibly lean out my wot ?
yes, BUT at WOT , a 4.5 or 6.5 are both open, if rich at WOT you need to change the main jet.
From steady cruise,does the lean spot come:
-immediatly after throtlle(hit pedal and instant lean)
-slightly after throtlle(hit pedal,engine starts to climb but falls lean right after)
My inclination would be to get the main circuit sorted with the main jets first.
(I also missed the 10-11 A/F reading).
I anticipate that when you drop the main jet size(s) to bring the A/F at WOT into the 12/13 range that you will make your lean condition at tip in worse, but I think that is something to fix after the jesting is correct.
The lean tip in is a combination of power valve, secondary opening rate (spring), and gas supply from the accelerator pump circuit. Larger squirters and different pump cams as well as how the cams are adjusted can make a difference. Generally you want a strong shot right when the throttle is moved and then adjust from there.
So the shop I go to did not have any 70 jets so I grabbed 71. I also asked about bigger pump nozzels. The carb has 31, I guess holley next size is 35 according the person behind the counter regardless they didn't have any in srock. So I went home threw in the 71 jets . I couldn't help myself, I grabbed my drill and drilled the nozzels.
Cruise is now 13.3 -13.5 . I see in posted 13.0 in my original post that was my mistake it was lower 12.6 - 13.0 with the orginal 72 jets
Slight accel gives 14.6 - 15 so I would say my drill job actually worked !
wot is still rich 11.0.
I need to do some more drives with some longer wot to see what it does. But still rich. I could drop to 70 jet probably put my cruise bang on around 13.8 or so but don't know if it will be eought for my wot.
A quick clarification.
The Jets some into play at RPM above 3000-3500 - in other words at WOT.
The cruise A/F is usually at lower RPM and often controlled by how much gas is fed through the transition slot. There are other parts of this. The Cruise A/F can respond to the Jets. Moving to jets that give you a higher A/F (I would think you need to move about 4 jet sizes to get from 11, but I would move in steps of 2 sizes to be careful) at WOT could raise your A/F at cruise. I wouldn't be worried about a cruise A/F of 15 or so as long as the engine is not bucking.
Drilling the nozzle will have a big effect. Flow through an orifice usually goes as something like the square of the radius, and you could have changed a lot depending on how much you changed the radius. This would change how fast the shot of gas comes in because the cam is what mostly controls the amount of gas. But if it works, then go with it. I have used needle to see the different sizes and those changes are very small.
I would still work on the Jets first, then see where you stand and tune from there. I also would recommend finding some books on this - but I didn't follow this advice and instead searched the internet where I found I could still learn a lot.
Do you have a way to log the A/F? Or are you reading it off the gauge as you test? If you don't have a way to log it, I would suggest looking into that. It could be as simple as connecting some wires to computer plug with USB adapter and downloading some software from your A/F gauge manufacturer.
PS there are people on here who know much more than I do. If they pipe in with advice, I will let them take the discussion until I see something I think I can help with.
I am just peaking at the gauge as I drive. I know it has the capability of data logging I will have to see if I can just FL a program onto my tablet .
went for another drive and did a few off idle 3/4 stomps . Getting a lean stumble / backfire threw carb. I think my problem is in the pump cam. I may have masked it by drilling the nozzles bigger, which helped me with my off cruise accel , but from a stop stumbling. Both situation use the cam in same position or close to. A more aggressive ramp should help.
i am pretty happy with the main jets. I could go one smaller but would rather have a bit safety room. maybe if get the rest dialed right in but right now it gives me some play room as I am leaning oUT at certain points
Fatten up the idle to see if it helps the stumble
Sound like it might want a larger IFR
Decrease your secondary main feed restriction/jet. You are not going to fix the WOT by leaning the primary.
This is assuming everything else is right with the carb.
I can riches up the idea for sure. But pretty sure the 4160 series carb (3310-5). doesn't have replace able idle or secondary jet. I read about closing up the air bleed with a thin wire.
Quote from: Canadian1968 on July 31, 2017, 03:15:31 PM
I can riches up the idea for sure. But pretty sure the 4160 series carb (3310-5). doesn't have replace able idle or secondary jet. I read about closing up the air bleed with a thin wire.
closing up the air bleed will make it richer
well that's what I need for my transitions. I have lean tip in and then rich wot ( higher rpm ) :brickwall: I can see why people get frustrated with these things lol .
Quote from: Canadian1968 on July 31, 2017, 04:02:18 PM
well that's what I need for my transitions. I have lean tip in and then rich wot ( higher rpm ) :brickwall: I can see why people get frustrated with these things lol .
can you feel the lean tip in ? if not,don't worry about it.
The lean tip in off cruise is fine . It the off idle fall on its face lean that's the problem and then the rich at wot
what accel pump cam do you have, I had to put the brown one on mine.
I have the factory orange one. I think i could benifit from a different one. But I got a book and read about the secondary idle adjustment screw i didn't even know about. It points out that if the transfer slot is exposed to much to get the car to idle correctly that it will mess up your transitions . I am going to try reserring this and double check my float levels . And see where I am !
so pulled the carb and set the secondary idle 1/2 turn in and dame with primary . Threw it on, had to turn the primary another 1/4 to get it to idle around 800. checked my float level they were acruelly a bit low. brough them up to even with bottom of the sight plug hole, adjusted the accel pump again. Stabbing the throttle in park, there was a noticeable crispness to the throttle response. A drive showed me an even smaller tip in off cruise, only dropping to 15.2 ish. A stab from idle lights up the tires with ease. But where as before it would spin an hook fairly quick, now it just keep spinning threw out the rpm haha. So taking it back and double checking the basics seems to have helped a lot. Next is to check out WOT .
Quote from: BSB67 on July 30, 2017, 08:40:55 PM
.......................This is assuming everything else is right with the carb.
So I finally got a set of 70 jets and a .35 tube style pump nozzel. Idel is now set around 700 rpm no bog off the line
, cruise is 13.6 ish ,
tip in off cruise is minimal down to 15.0 .
gradual acceleration is 14.0
my last problem is wot. I am still hitting 10.8 - 11.3.
I also did a run with vaccum gauge hooked up and a buddy reading it for me. Cruise barely any throttle is around 18" . 1/2 throttle gets me around 8". A WOT pull showed me with 3.5 at 5000 rpm in second .
The reading I did said to aim for 1" of vaccum or 0 for an all out race application . The 3.5 is
telling me I could use a bit more cfm from the carb ?
What do people think. The rich at WOT from not enough air or to much fuel ? If it is to much fuel I am stuck because the 4160 holley does not come with tunable pvrc or air bleeds . I would need to get an aftermarket metering block. I forgot to do thr paper clip trick to see if thr secondaries are opening but the way it pulls I would think they are....
the rear jet plate can be changed, they make them in sizes. if it were me I would get a different carb.
I think that's the plan for next year. Save up over winter ! The 3310 is a great carb but just doesn't offer the adjustability I am looking for.
Any suggestions on carb ?
Quote from: Canadian1968 on August 28, 2017, 06:47:05 AM
I think that's the plan for next year. Save up over winter ! The 3310 is a great carb but just doesn't offer the adjustability I am looking for.
Any suggestions on carb ?
Proform 750 DP "street series" carb is what I would run ;) Quit messing with the silly vac secondary stuff and put a real carb on that engine ! :icon_smile_big:
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pro-67213/overview/
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on August 28, 2017, 08:28:41 AM
Quote from: Canadian1968 on August 28, 2017, 06:47:05 AM
I think that's the plan for next year. Save up over winter ! The 3310 is a great carb but just doesn't offer the adjustability I am looking for.
Any suggestions on carb ?
LOL. What does the 3.5 of vaccum at wot tell me. Does it not mean the motor is trying to pull more air then the carb will allow ?
Proform 750 DP "street series" carb is what I would run ;) Quit messing with the silly vac secondary stuff and put a real carb on that engine ! :icon_smile_big:
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pro-67213/overview/
Ron
Quote from: Canadian1968 on August 28, 2017, 09:18:51 AM
LOL. What does the 3.5 of vaccum at wot tell me. Does it not mean the motor is trying to pull more air then the carb will allow ?
The current carb is a restriction at WOT based on the vacuum reading. The Proform carbs flow more than their advertised rating....my old PF750 main body flowed ~830 cfm. The trick when sizing a carb for street use is to pick something that has strong throttle response yet still has good top end charge. The venturi sizing is critical....go too big on the venturies and the low speed manners will suffer. It's all about balance ; smaller radiused venturies will deliver on all counts. :yesnod:
The PF carbs have lots of nice features and are very adjustable. I like the adjustable idle/high speed air bleed tunability that you won't get with a 3310. Four corner idle adjustment is a huge bonus. The glass sight bowls make float adjustment a breeze. The street series DP'er also comes with an electric choke as well. With a combo like yours the fuel curve should be darn near perfect. You
might have to adjust jetting but that would be about it. ;)
If you had ported aluminum heads and more cam you could upsize to a bigger 850DP'er but for the current combo with 906 heads and smallish cam the PF750 street carb would be my choice. It'll do everything well. :2thumbs:
Ron
Yes I read over the details of proform . Looks like it has all the bells and whistles ! Well I will start saving my pennies . Until then the 3310 is still suiting me well for a car that is 80% street driven..... I just don't like leaving power on the table :drool5:
Got mine installed last weekend, now I can finally tune the motor the rest of the way. :2thumbs:
a little update for anyone following the post . I got the pump cam kit. Tried 3 or 4 of the cams and found that the green in #1 position works great ! Gives me that big shot of cruise or off the line !
Going to play with some vacuum springs next ...
I really wish I had room for a spacer under the carb but that won't happen unless I get a hood scoop !
:2thumbs: