Well I figured I better start a thread on building my Daytona! I have been starting to work on the car even more these past three weeks and today I received my tires and rims, I also ordered a 10 point roll cage from S&W race cars and I will still have to pick up some extra tubing for the engine bay cage extension.
The rims are Wheel Vintiques 12 Series Bare Smoothie Wheel 15"x10" with a 4.5" backspacing and the tires are Cooper Cobra GT 275/60/15's I mounted a rim first and it cleared everything, mounted the tire on the rim (had to do the old starting fluid trick to get the bead seated!) and mounted it back on the spindle and installed the fender after removing the brace above the tire. All in all I am very happy with the way it looks, have to cut and flare the fender wheel opening now. going to weld in the other lug holes for the 4.75" bolt pattern and then have them blasted then powder coated gloss black. I also found a super cool plastic lettering place http://tredwearletters.com/ (http://tredwearletters.com/) and they have the Goodyear billboards and I will run those as well.
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Bout time. :cheers:
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 04, 2014, 06:41:00 PM
... have to cut and flare the fender wheel opening now.
Whew.... I was hoping you'd say that. I have difficulties with the 15x8 Bart '72 Grand National with a 4.0" backspacing on the front of my Daytona. If I'm not careful, I rub the wheel lip molding........ Which, isn't good.......
:2thumbs:
:2thumbs: :drool5: awesome build , you have going on !! , looking forward to seeing more progress pictures & atuff , as & when :yesnod: :cheers: :popcrn:
You may be able to get those tires under the fenders but that doesn't necessarily prove they clear. See if you can move the steering and the suspension travel through their full ranges at the same time. I'll betcha it doesn't clear the subframe rail behind the front suspension when the wheel is steered outwards.
Truth is, the real NASCAR Daytonas were seriously altered make their lowered stance & huge tires possible. The entire car was cut apart & reconstructed around the change.
They basically opened the car up like a plastic model kit and re-mounted the roof/sides lower on the undercarriage. When they were finished the floor & roof were a few inches closer together than stock. The firewall was shorter in height.
They also built the raked stance into the body during all this. The outer skin was nosed-down a few degrees while the undercarriage was still flat.
Mike, yes I checked and they clear, I have studied every picture of every race Daytona I could find and I know quite a bit from researching and asking questions (been looking at all the things they have changed for over two years)
Well I got a little more done tonight I removed the inner fenders (friggin' nightmare when it's 100 degrees plus in the shop) I have to go buy several sawzall blades tomorrow and I am going to cut down the upper control arm mounts to the Nascar spec, also going to cut the firewall out and make a new one since the Nascar modified one was moved back about 3 inches due to presumably moving the engine and trans back for better weight distribution. Hopefully my cage comes this next week and I can start installing it. lots to do but if it were easy everyone would do it! (Also bought some killer vintage Nascar decals for it off Ebay just need 6 more of the Monroe shock decals!) :icon_smile_big: (also if anyone knows of any vintage style rear axle coolers and a set of A body hood hinges for sale let me know!)
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Here is a tool that can make the fender rolling process a little easier. The cheapest one is just $129.00. Also if you don't already know leave enough metal when you cut the radius so that when you stretch the edge there will be enough to reach out over the tire and ideally have about 1/2 " of metal to fold back under to create a soft edge.
http://search.eastwood.com/search?w=fender%20rolling%20tool
Steve, Yeah I have had my eye on buying one of those for a long time, I was just wondering how well it would work because that #71 has a huge flare at the top of the fender (not like the Owens built cars with a smaller flare) and I was not for sure if the metal would stretch that far, my plan was to cut vertical cuts on the top lip of the fender and then pull it out and then weld "pie" filler pieces in.
Looks like an awesome project. If you do need any more pics of the original 71 car. I was recently pushing it around, and I do mean pushing... after running it out of gas.
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2921/13966769957_cb2f475827_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7307/14173553743_34c486e03c_c.jpg)
Ryan
Ryan, Yeah I could stare at that car all day!! :drool5: (although I am going with the first version with the fatter #71's and DAYTONA on the tail stripe need to find more pics of that car)
Some guys splice in the wheel lip arches of another vehicle's fenders to get them looking just right.
I recall picking up somewhere that somebody tooled up a custom fender arch back in the day, and teams all over NASCAR were using them.
Volvos from the 80s had a good entire wheel arch, although the actual size of the flare was minor:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSFCAXzxS5ua9p14QgcGGIcL5_i68U5nrFVa-lSVnRR0ulwh5mh)
Ford Thunderbirds from the 70s and 80s (both the boxy ones and the later smaller ones) all had bulged fenders around the wheels. Might also make good donors.
And here's an import place custom-making steel flares to order:
http://www.zccjdm.com/catalog.php/azcarbum/dt93862/pd2109134/JDM__METAL_FENDER_FLARES__ROLLED_
If it was mine, I would probably end up custom-making them because I would want some semblance of the stock wheelwell shape to remain (at least visually). I like the slightly squared-off shape better than the fully rounded ones on many old racers.
Mike has some excellent ideas. If the flair is separate you can move it around until the placement looks right beating the fender out like they did in the old days or cutting pie shapes will require you to keep pulling the tire off and replacing it to size up your progress. When ever you decide to do this mod you should get the car on the floor and cut yourself 4 ride height blocks and place them under the frame rail under the main body to the final rake angle you want the car to sit at We used to do this when building front fenders for the Gen 4 cars. The suspension should be set up minus the springs (torsion bars unloaded in this case). With the caster/camber and final tread width established it will be easy to place the flairs where they will look the best.
(Hopefully my cage comes this next week and I can start installing it.)
You have a cage coming specifically for that body style ?
Thanks for all the added info Mike and Steve! (a guy can never learn enough!) :2thumbs: I had planned on sitting it at ride height before doing too much cutting because I could see that being a problem when I had just taped out the rough pattern of where to cut, I am going to cut enough to get the wheel at ride height and then go from there.
Quote(Hopefully my cage comes this next week and I can start installing it.)
You have a cage coming specifically for that body style ?
I bought a 10 point roll cage for a 69 Charger from S&W race cars, is it a true to form stock car cage? no, but I am still going to have functional doors (shaved) as I am far too big to crawl my ass through the window when I want to take a drive (6'8 300lbs) :icon_smile_big: I will buy more tube to make the front part of the cage where it goes through the firewall and welds to the knee bar and the 3 other longer bars that criss cross behind the driver going to the rear shock mounts that come through the floor.
Some old faded memory tells me you're supposed to use pieces cut from the spare tire well of an "A" body trunk floor to make the fender arches or "flares". :scratchchin: :shruggy:
QuoteMike has some excellent ideas. If the flair is separate you can move it around until the placement looks right beating the fender out like they did in the old days or cutting pie shapes will require you to keep pulling the tire off and replacing it to size up your progress. When ever you decide to do this mod you should get the car on the floor and cut yourself 4 ride height blocks and place them under the frame rail under the main body to the final rake angle you want the car to sit at We used to do this when building front fenders for the Gen 4 cars. The suspension should be set up minus the springs (torsion bars unloaded in this case). With the caster/camber and final tread width established it will be easy to place the flairs where they will look the best.
QuoteSome old faded memory tells me you're supposed to use pieces cut from the spare tire well of an "A" body trunk floor to make the fender arches or "flares"
Some more good thinking here too.
Well, I went and bought a couple fresh sawzall blades and went to work today, still need to remove the stock core support but I won't do that until I get some measurements tomorrow. will also make a template for the firewall (gotta love having a appliance store nearby figure a fridge box oughta be big enough!!)
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Before you know it you'll be cutting the rockers and dropping the body a couple of inches :yesnod:
You know even if the doors are operable you can get the cage nearly faithful to the race version. In 69 when these cars were introduced they still had window regulators and operable glass so the door bars would be inboard of the inner door panel. Not that you would put them in permanently but you could dummy them to the door so that when closed they would appear correct but being attached to the door they would swing out with it. Then you could put some shaved door handle kits in and eliminate the outer door handle and cover it with a plate as per the real deal. :coolgleamA:
Here are some pictures of a racing simulator I built back in 1997. At the time simulators were cars that were hacked to bits with arcade games in them.I wanted the car to look as real as possible inside to you can see what I did with the door bars in this picture. Your deal would be much easier as you would just have to attach them to the inner door itself.
QuoteBefore you know it you'll be cutting the rockers and dropping the body a couple of inches
Steve, you know if I knew how much they were lowered I would go ahead and body drop it, nothing new to me as I have body dropped newer trucks when installing air bags.
QuoteThen you could put some shaved door handle kits in and eliminate the outer door handle and cover it with a plate as per the real deal.
I have already pulled the door handles and all internal rods, I am going to make aluminum plates and rivet them on the door where the handles went just like the real deal then route a cable inside the door forward so you just reach inside the front wheel well and pull the cable to open the door that's the way I always did emergency door releases on any truck door handles I shaved in case the battery died and the electric door poppers would not work.
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 06, 2014, 07:31:24 PM
QuoteBefore you know it you'll be cutting the rockers and dropping the body a couple of inches
Steve, you know if I knew how much they were lowered I would go ahead and body drop it, nothing new to me as I have body dropped newer trucks when installing air bags.
QuoteThen you could put some shaved door handle kits in and eliminate the outer door handle and cover it with a plate as per the real deal.
I have already pulled the door handles and all internal rods, I am going to make aluminum plates and rivet them on the door where the handles went just like the real deal then route a cable inside the door forward so you just reach inside the front wheel well and pull the cable to open the door that's the way I always did emergency door releases on any truck door handles I shaved in case the battery died and the electric door poppers would not work.
Sounds like you are thinking of everything. I am sure Aero426 or somebody here has knowledge of exactly how low they were dropped. I think that might be essential to you getting the right look. That is something I had hoped to do with my project but that ain't gonna happen. It's all up to you man.
Yeah very hard to tell in pictures of the actual race cars, need someone near one with a tape! :icon_smile_big: I may be mistaken but werent the windshields laid back as well???
The windshields would have to fit the overall long template taken from the stock car so I don't think they would be laid back. Since they used stock glass if you laid it back it would show up at the upper corners and down at the lower corners at the cowl. It would also create issues with the A post appearance which would snowball into issues with the vent windows.
I have heard that some cars were rolled down at the front of the hood pretty significantly though but I don't know how much.
Yeah I figured if a team had laid the a pillars back it would have been a lot of work for what was gained.
Also on the rear end cooler.You can easily fab up one yourself. Here is one that I fabricated for the Bobby Allison 74 Chevy Laguna I restored. It is simply a heater fan squirrel cage installed to take air in and drive it down over the cooler through a hole in the floor.
nice! may have to do that if I cannot find one!
Steve, do you still make stuff like that cooler now as if I get that far on mine I'll need a couple of them ? :scratchchin:
To understand the extent of the factory's lowering job, you need to look at where the center points of the wheels are in relation to the body panels.
Look at the front wheels here:
The center point is about even with the bottoms of the doors on the production unibody. But on the racing version it's even with the bottom corner of the door scallop.
The production car would have been cranked a bit higher on the torsion bars than the racecar was. But still, the sheetmetal changes were responsible for most of the difference.
(http://image.motortrend.com/f/classic/roadtests/1105_1968_dodge_charger_rt_426_hemi_first_drive/35291420/1968-dodge-charger-rt-426-hemi-side.jpg)
(http://www.fotosdecarros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/25/01/1969-Dodge-Charger-Daytona-NASCAR-Race-Car-Owner-Joe-Frasson-Staniding-Beside-Car-Red-_amp_-Yellow-sv.jpg)
IMO the full body channeling job is necessary to truly get the stance of a real Grand National stocker. They got the bodywork like that and still maintained a minimum 5" ground clearance under the whole thing. On a stock unibody the front subframe rails hang too far down below the bodywork to run it quite that low.
The lowering job is limited by the engine height. The oil pan can't be too close to the pavement and the air cleaner can't hit the hood skin. No matter how you monkey around with the car body that engine isn't getting any shorter.
The alternative - Setting up the stock unibody to ride lower:
Front end suggestions:
-- aftermarket 2" drop spindles
-- stock oil & trans pans
-- custom build the exhaust system to be very flattened-out (oval tubing) underneath the front half of the car.
Rear end suggestions:
-- trimmed rubber bumpstops above the axle
-- upside-down front spring eye brackets and longer rear shackles, for both better geometry and NASCAR looks.
That should get you partway there and still leave the car fairly drivable.
He could go with a dry sump setup like they did. Then, he could drop the engine down with a custom k member like they did. Little extra coin though.
Mike, I am fully aware of all you have stated and I have no problem dropping the body I just need to find out exactly how much was taken out (which I don't think was all that much maybe 2"), also out back the race version used lowering blocks look like 1 1/2" and from the location of the upper ball joint on the front to the a-arm location it is cranked down considerably.
April 2012 MoPar Action has some good pics of stock cars being built.
The 'frame' had to be 6.5" off the track, the oil pan 5". These are minimum specs.
Look at the recent photos on the Baker thread!! That shows it all, for a 1968 short track car
converted to a Daytona - using street parts! Bottom is accurate enough... :Twocents:
Well I went out in the garage and tested the frame at a 5" ride height (on the lowest part the torsion bar cross member) I sat the wheel in there just to check how close I was on masking for the wheel opening cut. There is still plenty of room for K member clearance I will install it after I cut the fenders and bolt up the front suspension to check it all before doing any welding. After looking at several pics of the race Daytona's I always wondered why in the heck did they make a new torsion bar cross member and why was it raised above the floor into the driver compartment?? You can tell it was because the metal sleeve that the torsion bar fit's in is half exposed where as a stock version is right in the middle of the cross member, I know they had a driver side torsion bar adjuster in the cockpit but I have a feeling the overall design moving the cross member up was due to ground clearance rules, I may wind up employing this design.
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And yes it's low! :coolgleamA:
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Quote
Mike, I am fully aware of all you have stated and I have no problem dropping the body I just need to find out exactly how much was taken out (which I don't think was all that much maybe 2"), also out back the race version used lowering blocks look like 1 1/2" and from the location of the upper ball joint on the front to the a-arm location it is cranked down considerably.
The racers used lowering blocks in back, but they also notched the rear subframe rails above the axle too. The NASCAR rear subframe rails don't look too obviously chopped-up but the extra clearancing is definitely there if you compare them to a stock rail. (And I don't recall a bumpstop either. If not, that would buy another 2" just by itself.)
QuoteAfter looking at several pics of the race Daytona's I always wondered why in the heck did they make a new torsion bar cross member and why was it raised above the floor into the driver compartment?? You can tell it was because the metal sleeve that the torsion bar fit's in is half exposed where as a stock version is right in the middle of the cross member, I know they had a driver side torsion bar adjuster in the cockpit but I have a feeling the overall design moving the cross member up was due to ground clearance rules, I may wind up employing this design.
I've wondered if the altered T-bar crossmembers on the NASCARS might have been done partially just to add some height (read: stiffness) to the crossmember. The thicker T-bars would have been trying harder to twist the crossmember into a pretzel as the downforce pressed down on the car at speed.
Looking at the backstory of how the NASCAR guys developed those cars, you're dealing with two separate issues in terms of lowering.
#1, the chassis needs work to clear the oversize tires even with the undercarriage at a reasonably high ride height. They were doing this in the early/mid 1960s.
#2, the outer body skin being lowered & raked farther down on the undercarriage for aerodynamics. They started doing this in the later 1960s, as they started re-skinning earlier chassis/cages with later bodywork.
I was outside thinking about how they would lower the body and to me it would have been inconceivable to drop the entire body because while the front sheet metal bolted to the cage the rear sheet metal would have had to have been lowered in the valance/ tail panel area and the trunk floor would have been raised and all the race Daytona pics i have seen still have the factory trunk latch bracket that is welded from the trunk pan to tail panel, you would think if they raised the floor they would just toss that part due to weight/ time saving as it served no function. What I finally came up with makes more sense and saved the teams time while maintaining the rest of the body was mainly "stock", I believe they just sectioned and raised the front stub! It lowered the front sheetmetal and gave the car the rake effect and makes sense to me why they relocated the transmission cross member up into the car I measured and with the transmission cross member moved up a 1 1/2" the torsion bars would still clear the front floor pans and you would not see the front stub or the transmission cross member from the side view as it is actually above the pinch weld and level with the horizontal outer rocker. This makes the most sense to me as everything else would line up on the front suspension!
I just looked at the pics of the Buddy Baker Daytona, go about halfway down and look at the underside shot of the engine, look at the front frame rails as they go back towards the torsion bar cross member they shrink about half their size beginning at the front of the floor pan, I just went and looked at my Charger and they are the same height all the way back to the cross member, also notice the torsion bar mount location also. IMO the teams just pulled the front stub and shaved
however much they wanted to lower the cars front and re-installed the stub along with the new upper trans cross member!
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,63521.525.html
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3850/14983592959_45b982a1f6_q.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oQ3QaD)Raised floor (https://flic.kr/p/oQ3QaD) by
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I read somewhere that is what Petty done on his cars, was just raised the front stub.
Well, I decided to throw the K frame, torsion bar and the passenger spindle on with the tire to check out the space between the torsion bar and the floor pan, also cut the fender, still needs trimmed back further on the rear of the fender, I am going to have to remove the stock sway bar mount on the LCA as it hits the caliper. Pretty happy with the progress, going to take a bunch of measurements then drill out the spot welds on the frame rails and torsion bar cross member sometime this week.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3852/14985792388_4e4bf3d15b_q.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oQf6YQ)IMAG1962 (https://flic.kr/p/oQf6YQ)
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Somebodies on fire. :yesnod: Looks like when you decide to hit the go button it would be good to get out of the way. :2thumbs:
QuoteI am going to have to remove the stock sway bar mount on the LCA as it hits the caliper
You could just swap things side-to-side so the calipers are placed behind the balljoints. No more swaybar interference.
QuoteI was outside thinking about how they would lower the body and to me it would have been inconceivable to drop the entire body because while the front sheet metal bolted to the cage the rear sheet metal would have had to have been lowered in the valance/ tail panel area and the trunk floor would have been raised and all the race Daytona pics i have seen still have the factory trunk latch bracket that is welded from the trunk pan to tail panel, you would think if they raised the floor they would just toss that part due to weight/ time saving as it served no function. What I finally came up with makes more sense and saved the teams time while maintaining the rest of the body was mainly "stock", I believe they just sectioned and raised the front stub! It lowered the front sheetmetal and gave the car the rake effect and makes sense to me why they relocated the transmission cross member up into the car I measured and with the transmission cross member moved up a 1 1/2" the torsion bars would still clear the front floor pans and you would not see the front stub or the transmission cross member from the side view as it is actually above the pinch weld and level with the horizontal outer rocker. This makes the most sense to me as everything else would line up on the front suspension!
That's only a problem if you make the pivot point (between the undercarriage & body) at the rearend of the rockers. If you make the pivot point at the very back end of the car then the undercarriage won't hang down below the rear valance.
QuoteI just looked at the pics of the Buddy Baker Daytona, go about halfway down and look at the underside shot of the engine, look at the front frame rails as they go back towards the torsion bar cross member they shrink about half their size beginning at the front of the floor pan, I just went and looked at my Charger and they are the same height all the way back to the cross member, also notice the torsion bar mount location also. IMO the teams just pulled the front stub and shaved
however much they wanted to lower the cars front and re-installed the stub along with the new upper trans cross member!
Yeah, just raising the front subframe is a viable way to do it. Not a bad way overall.
But be aware that the suspension geometry is slightly worse than stock at both ends that way. You end up with better geometry at both ends by keeping the undercarriage intact & flatter with the ground. Notice that old racers tended to run very long spring shackles & build raised boxes on the floor of the cabin for the leaf spring eye brackets. There is also the front caster angle to contend with, which needs to move several degrees back already.
QuoteYou could just swap things side-to-side so the calipers are placed behind the balljoints. No more swaybar interference.
Mike, I am just going to cut them off as I will be using a Nascar style sway bar (tube through the K-frame)
QuoteThat's only a problem if you make the pivot point (between the undercarriage & body) at the rearend of the rockers. If you make the pivot point at the very back end of the car then the undercarriage won't hang down below the rear valance.
Only problem with that is if you cut the rockers all the way back, outer wheel houses, trunk drop offs, inner roof structure, package tray (which I am removing anyway) when that is all done and you go to lower the body over the floor something out back is going to distort (the tail light panel or valance and could buckle the rear quarters around the corners) :ahum:
QuoteYeah, just raising the front subframe is a viable way to do it. Not a bad way overall.
But be aware that the suspension geometry is slightly worse than stock at both ends that way. You end up with better geometry at both ends by keeping the undercarriage intact & flatter with the ground. Notice that old racers tended to run very long spring shackles & build raised boxes on the floor of the cabin for the leaf spring eye brackets. There is also the front caster angle to contend with, which needs to move several degrees back already.
Yeah I have not seen much of the rear spring setups, I was planning on making new upper control arms to address the caster problem.
QuoteMike, I am just going to cut them off as I will be using a Nascar style sway bar (tube through the K-frame)
That would do it. It would look NASCAR accurate, too.
QuoteOnly problem with that is if you cut the rockers all the way back, outer wheel houses, trunk drop offs, inner roof structure, package tray (which I am removing anyway) when that is all done and you go to lower the body over the floor something out back is going to distort (the tail light panel or valance and could buckle the rear quarters around the corners)
Yeah it would be an issue to contend with.
But it's wise to consider internally bracing the unibody before cutting much of any big chunk out of it, including the front subframe.
The body lowering was happening in NASCAR in the late 60s partly because they were starting to do these kinds of body-jobs anyway to update the cars. They had an undercarriage/cage, and a newer roof/sides to mount onto it, and they were just starting to understand aero mods . . . why not mount it a few inches lower than stock?
QuoteYeah I have not seen much of the rear spring setups, I was planning on making new upper control arms to address the caster problem.
They were basically trying to level-out the leaf springs. Raise the front eye & lower the rear shackle end.
They also typically welded in wider (longer tubes) mounts for the rear shackles. The top end of the shackle would be wider than the spring end. It would help stabilize the shackle laterally.
QuoteThey were basically trying to level-out the leaf springs. Raise the front eye & lower the rear shackle end.
Hmmm, seems if they were all doing this then they were offsetting the effects caused by raising the front stub up?
When looking at pics I cannot see a obvious slant on the floor to inner "door" opening and also it does not look lowered but in pictures it's hard to judge just a
inch or two. I looked at my car better and I can get the car 2" lower in the front by dropping the body a 1" and raising the front stub a 1" and the floor to door opening would still look. Just wish I could go take some measurements off a real deal! :icon_smile_big:
If you're going to all the trouble of raising the front subframe then IMO you oughtta take it up 2 inches or more. Seems like a shame to dump all that effort into getting just 1 inch.
If the project was mine I would be trying to get the NASCAR look but not overly concerned with matching exactly how it was done. I mean . . . the NASCAR wings were a bunch of cars, over several years, coming from several shops, some built new, others were updated old cars. All were subject to weekly crashing & reskinning and Bill France changed the rules like he changed his clothes.
If you're not on a mission to replicate a single car or make it 200mph-worthy then I would just figure out something practical that makes a good street cruiser, whatever lowering method(s) that turns out to be. Totally duplicating a full-on Grand National car from that era demands all kinds of odds & ends that would be hard to find or build. And many of those details would end up ill-suited to a street car even if you did them.
Just my two cents, as with all my comments on this thread.
Sorry if I come across like I'm underestimating your knowledge or commitment to it. I've kicked around ideas for a project like yours myself so I'm preloaded with a lot to say about it.
There is a bright metallic green customized '68 Charger that has been showing up in magazines/shows lately (recent build.) It has the front subframe channeled upwards a few inches just like you are talking about doing. Some other mods to the back too. Might be worth looking into.
QuoteIf the project was mine I would be trying to get the NASCAR look but not overly concerned with matching exactly how it was done. I mean . . . the NASCAR wings were a bunch of cars, over several years, coming from several shops, some built new, others were updated old cars. All were subject to weekly crashing & reskinning and Bill France changed the rules like he changed his clothes.
If you're not on a mission to replicate a single car or make it 200mph-worthy then I would just figure out something practical that makes a good street cruiser, whatever lowering method(s) that turns out to be. Totally duplicating a full-on Grand National car from that era demands all kinds of odds & ends that would be hard to find or build. And many of those details would end up ill-suited to a street car even if you did them.
Mike, Yeah it's not going to be anywhere near correct as the grand national cars were I have a 5.7 Hemi and T56 that will be going in it but the outward look of it I want to be spot on as well when you pop the hood (minus the 5.7 Hemi :icon_smile_big:)
QuoteSorry if I come across like I'm underestimating your knowledge or commitment to it. I've kicked around ideas for a project like yours myself so I'm preloaded with a lot to say about it.
No problem with any input I don't get upset when anyone interjects any opinion (two heads are better than one!) I have done serious body work in the past as chop tops, body drops and sectioned one car (refuse to do that ever again!) So I have a pretty good understanding where cuts need to be made and I gave it a look again today as I said and I see where it can be done without any interference near the rear.
QuoteThere is a bright metallic green customized '68 Charger that has been showing up in magazines/shows lately (recent build.) It has the front subframe channeled upwards a few inches just like you are talking about doing. Some other mods to the back too. Might be worth looking into.
I have not seen that car yet.
There was a thread on the green '68 on this site a year or two ago when the car first showed up.
As I said above, in your car's case I would probably think hard about running the 2" drop spindles, even though I'm generally not a huge fan of those things for normal wheel/tire setups. That would help compensate for the taller tire size and put the undercarriage height back closer to stock.
On the real GN cars they used to cut chunks out of the subframe rails above the LCAs just to let the LCAs pivot higher (think: clearancing a rear framerail above a rear axle on lowering blocks).
Another option that I've heard of people doing in the past is to cut the LCA off near the balljoint (past the bumpstop pad) and weld it back together with the BJ repostioned higher up (a big move, like 1" or more). The idea is not to change the LCA geometry but rather just scoop out some more bumpstop clearance in the middle of the LCA. This mod would also affect the T-bar positioning (just the height adjustment). It would call for some fab work to keep the LCAs strong but it seems do-able.
If you repositioned the lower BJ just slightly farther towards the front of the car during this process then it would help the caster issue too. All the caster improvement you can get from the UCAs involves moving the top of the spindle backwards whereas this would move the bottom forwards - the combination of both would be better for keeping the wheel where it belongs.
Anyway . . . if you mod the suspension a couple inches for the big wheels then you'd end up with something like the mid-60s GN Mopars that were modified standard unibodies. You would just be left using the subframe drop to accomplish the additional lowering jobs they started doing on the 68-up cars when the bodies were getting more severely cut up.
QuoteAs I said above, in your car's case I would probably think hard about running the 2" drop spindles, even though I'm generally not a huge fan of those things for normal wheel/tire setups. That would help compensate for the taller tire size and put the undercarriage height back closer to stock.
Yeah, I don't think those will work with my tire combo though it would move the LCA really close to the rim and may scrub through the suspension travel? idk
for the $300 they cost at this point it's maybe only 4 hours of work to go ahead and drop the body 2" inches over the floor then raise the front stub 1"
if the car was completely together I would think about giving them a try.
QuoteAnother option that I've heard of people doing in the past is to cut the LCA off near the balljoint (past the bumpstop pad) and weld it back together with the BJ repostioned higher up (a big move, like 1" or more). The idea is not to change the LCA geometry but rather just scoop out some more bumpstop clearance in the middle of the LCA.
I looked at this to as I have done it on truck LCA to lower them but they were more beefy compared to the Chrysler LCA. I am going to cut the bump stop
bracket off and recess it as low as I can get it into the LCA for added clearance (even though it won't have a bump stop, just keep it for strength) I also have a
set of LCA reinforcement brackets I will weld on as well.
I have been looking it over and I know where to make all the cuts to free the floor from the body, not as bad as I thought it would be should only take about a hour. I am going to raise the floor first then take the front stub off, I ordered this last night for a new torsion bar cross member so I can raise it through the floor should work perfect https://www.cachassisworks.com/p-79-tubular-crossmember-heavy-duty-3-x-2-x-120-wall-57-12-long-with-6-12-drop.aspx (https://www.cachassisworks.com/p-79-tubular-crossmember-heavy-duty-3-x-2-x-120-wall-57-12-long-with-6-12-drop.aspx)
One other scenario before you raise the floor would be to free up the front clip from the transmission crossmember forward. Brace up the front clip square stock to the ground. I would cut and remove the front floor pan just ahead of the rear side of the cross member. Now you can lower the main body of the car intact over the clip until you get the rake you want. Then weld the front clip members back to the side frames ect. Then re install the front floor pan This leaves the geometry of the front end pickup points level to the ground. The only thing in the rear you will have to adjust would be the spring mounts to rotate the rear to maintain your pinion angle.You will probably have to fab a new trans tunnel which you might be doing any way.
QuoteThis leaves the geometry of the front end pickup points level to the ground.
It leaves the geometry level with the rest of the car.
But the front (and rear) geometry would still be tilted nose-down relative to the ground.
Steve, I did more measuring and think I am going to lower the body 2" over the floor and raise the front stub 1" and yes I bought a trans tunnel at the same time I bought the new torsion bar cross member.
Just thinking of head room. I am 5' 10" and granted the SRT seats are big but my head almost hits the ceiling on this car. :shruggy: :shruggy:
Steve, Yeah funny you mentioned that I was thinking about that tonight while I was in it cleaning up the area to cut, I am going to modify my 69 seats and it will be mounted on the floor (no adjusters) and scooted back pretty far as no one but myself will drive this car :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 08, 2014, 07:50:09 PM
Steve, Yeah funny you mentioned that I was thinking about that tonight while I was in it cleaning up the area to cut, I am going to modify my 69 seats and it will be mounted on the floor (no adjusters) and scooted back pretty far as no one but myself will drive this car :icon_smile_big:
Sounds comfy :lol:
Well been making more progress, I have leveled the car, drilled out all the spot welds on the rear inner wheel tubs to rear floor pan (under rear seat area) and separated them. have figured exactly where to cut the inner rocker and going to slice the complete rocker pinch weld off after the body is lowered use L channel to re-weld the factory inner rocker to the outer rocker same as the race version. Also welded a brace between the upper inner wheel tubs to keep the rear wheel tubs from folding in when I remove the whole rear package tray, just have a few more spot welds to drill and it's out. I got my tracking numbers for my S&W cage today and my trans tunnel and cross member will be here next Monday, I will also notch the rear upper frame rails so the axle has further travel without hitting the frame rails, that cross brace also has to be removed after I install the driver side rear frame rail so I can install all four rear shocks ;) I am still trying to decide on which T bars and leafs springs to run. I think I will be running the stiffest bar I can find since I do intend to race this car if there are ever any vintage Nascar exhibition races :icon_smile_big:
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:popcrn: Great build! Loving it! :2thumbs:
( I do intend to race this car if there are ever any vintage Nascar exhibition races.) You will probably need a couple of different sizes of bars and springs if you get racing.
I have been loosely looking to get into vintage racing but never found out anything about it. I'd just take track time if I could get it.
AL, There is a SCCA road course track about 15 minutes from me in Putnamville, Indiana. I have watched many factory SCCA Vipers wax Corvettes there for years practicing. I would love to take this car and really show people what a TRUE DAYTONA Charger (specifically the #71) going around a track! even if it is just for exhibition I would be on cloud 9 And really that is all it's about, guy's my age (34) never got to see actual race Daytona Chargers go around the track, We just see vintage footage. I would love to see and be a part of a vintage style exhibition race.
I can't remember where it is but they have or had oval track drag racing till some guy flipped his Ranger but that'd work, go out and run 5 laps and clock the time then the next one run 5 laps for times and so on but I am sure its a liability thing your going to get some "person" that thinks they can drive and gets hurt and its all over :'(
:lol: Yeah I have seen one of those before! get a load of this video http://youtu.be/xZw29SsJ5YU (http://youtu.be/xZw29SsJ5YU)
I have been Club Racing with the SCCA for the past 9 years. We host vintage events with members of SVRA and HSR and our own vintage class. Once the car is done, and with some basic instruction and evaluation that you are not going to drive like a total lunatic around expensive cars, you could easily get the car on track. We have a few vintage Mustangs, Corvettes and such running around with Triumphs and old Porsche's. The rules are VERY strict against metal to metal contact, and very lax with horsepower restrictions, so winning in that class is not the same as winning against 40 Spec Miatas. If my car was not a convertible, (therefore not eligible even as a NASCAR clone), I would have done this a long time ago.
Car looks great so far.
(Edit). I am in the Green BMW E36, 3rd from the left.
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 09, 2014, 09:48:14 PM
:lol: Yeah I have seen one of those before! get a load of this video http://youtu.be/xZw29SsJ5YU (http://youtu.be/xZw29SsJ5YU)
Yep thats the track and the video I saw.
Looks like great fun Swampwing2!! :2thumbs:
Getting your feet wet with track day (road course) events is probably your best way to get involved. Then take it from there.
As far as oval track, there are some events for vintage cars in Illinois and Wisconsin. They are real racing events and there can be contact. IMCA old timers is another option that runs in the midwest.
There is a west coast based vintage Grand National group. They have not yet come east. You and your car have to be "accepted" into the group. They guys running this are basically the same that run the vintage Trans-Am class out west.
If your plan is to race it you might want to assume you will need a real racing seat at some point. You might want to consider it at this early stage so that you can put the proper bars for mounting such a seat in at this stage :Twocents:
Steve, yeah I am running the X brace under/through the floor pan after I raise the floor and the same style seat brace to cage. Im goin all the way!
That
's a hell of a project you've got yourself into! Keep up the good work! :2thumbs:
Agreed on the seat issue.
Looking stock is the only thing the '69 seats don't absolutely suck at. And they eat up most of $1000/pair just to do that.
Don't recall seeing what kind of tubing you are using but ERW is not allowed in several clubs anymore. You need to run DOM and most clubs will specify a minimum tube diameter and wall thickness based on vehicle weight as well. Just FYI regarding the racing thing.
Quote from: Swampwing2 on September 10, 2014, 08:28:50 PM
Don't recall seeing what kind of tubing you are using but ERW is not allowed in several clubs anymore. You need to run DOM and most clubs will specify a minimum tube diameter and wall thickness based on vehicle weight as well. Just FYI regarding the racing thing.
Don't know about what it was in the old days but we use 1 3/4" .090 DOM.
Yeah, I am not using DOM tubing I want to race it but it's not a deal breaker for me if someone says I can't at least I know if I get in a accident on the road I am well protected! Finally removed the rear package tray, also received my LCA reinforcement plates from PST (I could have made some but for $20.00 they were worth it) Need to weld up X braces on the firewall and door openings before I cut the rocker free from the body.
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https://swracecars.com/store/1968-1970-Coronet-Satellite-Charger-Road-Runner-GTX-10-Point-Roll-Cage-OSCARItem_35=11-2537.aspx (https://swracecars.com/store/1968-1970-Coronet-Satellite-Charger-Road-Runner-GTX-10-Point-Roll-Cage-OSCARItem_35=11-2537.aspx)
This is the cage I bought in 1-5/8 x .134" EWS
Indy, what did you use for paint to put the Goodyear logo on the tires ?
Al, that's not paint it's some vinyl I printed off to check what size I want to get (that is way too big IMO 2" tall) I am going to buy the Goodyear billboard kit from
Tred wear letters, they sell kits and they are rubber letters that you glue to the tire, say they wont fade like paint, Lots of the Cobra guys run them.
http://tredwearletters.com/product/billboard-tire-letter-kit/ (http://tredwearletters.com/product/billboard-tire-letter-kit/)
Having second thoughts on this cage after doing some more research.. :icon_smile_blackeye: I think I will return it and get a DOM cage.
Rollbars oughtta be at least 1.75" diameter for the NASCAR vibe. And fitted very well to the inside walls of the car.
Using DOM wouldn't hurt.
Can you weld DOM tubing with a mig ? I like the idea of vinyl letters for the tires, I was thinking of using acrylic lacquer (which I didn't realize you can still buy) with adhesion promoter. Back in the day if you got overspray on a tire it was hell to get off but I would guess the rubber in tires has changed too.
Yeah, you can weld DOM with MIG now I think Chromoly you have to TIG.
The rules usually require 4130 to be TIG welded.
Whether TIG is really the safest welding method for the stuff . . . that's another story IMO.
Never did get to TIG (always wanted to) When I was college I took welding classes and the local union guys used the same shop to re-certify and I watch a guy TIG a pop can back together after he cut it apart in the middle! :o
All our cages are mig welded. Good up to 250 m.p.h. :yesnod:
Good to know Steve! I received the roll cage today and it looks really nice, this may be a stupid question but how when you go to say one of those exhibition races how do they know you have a DOM or ERW cage?? Im still on the fence about sending it back for a DOM cage, I am going to call S&W in the morning and ask a few questions, should have done that in the beginning I guess ::)
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,112061.0.html :Twocents:
Yep, seen that a while back pretty cool stuff, although those front stubs are not sectioned I would say those were meant for a later car maybe 71-up?
ERW is regular mild steel isn't it ? I saw in the ad you ordered from that "they" don't recommend DOM tubing for drag racing. What is it and why does it make a difference. I would think the quality of the weld would be more important than the type of steel. :shruggy:
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 11, 2014, 05:23:26 PM
Good to know Steve! I received the roll cage today and it looks really nice, this may be a stupid question but how when you go to say one of those exhibition races how do they know you have a DOM or ERW cage?? Im still on the fence about sending it back for a DOM cage, I am going to call S&W in the morning and ask a few questions, should have done that in the beginning I guess ::)
I really couldn't say on how they would check that. I know they use a sonic tester for wall thickness on our stuff. The dimensions might give it away though. 1.75" is pretty standard and has been for a while.
Quote from: Highbanked Hauler on September 11, 2014, 08:34:50 PM
ERW is regular mild steel isn't it ? I saw in the ad you ordered from that "they" don't recommend DOM tubing for drag racing. What is it and why does it make a difference. I would think the quality of the weld would be more important than the type of steel. :shruggy:
The DOM used on a Cup chassis is mild steel.
From everything I have read ERW is the same tube as DOM they are both seamed tubing but the DOM goes through a second step where it is pulled through another die and mandrel bent, and supposedly the second step gives it more strength?
http://www.stockcarsteel.com/dom-steel-tube-drawn-over-mandrel/
Quote from: Stevearino on September 11, 2014, 09:02:39 PM
http://www.stockcarsteel.com/dom-steel-tube-drawn-over-mandrel/
That explains it very well..
Thanks Steve, That is pretty much what I saw on another site, I did put the main hoop in the car and it fit great, they had left plenty of extra material to cut off and all the bends looked nice also held the A-pillar bars up and they flowed perfectly.
Get a piece of each in your hand and you can really tell that DOM is better made stuff.
The shape of DOM more perfectly round & smoother sides. You don't see or feel the electric weld seam at all. It seems a little more dense in steel content when you start trying to cut & weld it. For the same reasons I think ERW can be a bit easier to work with.
QuoteThe shape is more perfectly round & smoother sides. You don't see or feel the electric weld seam at all.
Yeah, but I can't feel the weld on these bars and the corner bends look like any mandrel bent exhaust I have ever had!? If I shot primer on the weld and painted it you would not be able to tell there was a weld there. but regardless I am going to send this back and get one in DOM.
Quotebut regardless I am going to send this back and get one in DOM.
As much a pain it will be, I think you are making the right choice :2thumbs: . The stock car and road race rules in the three organizations I have previously been involved with, and the rules of places I have thought about racing have all required DOM. I think that is common.
I called and talked to Tom over at S&W race cars and he said he was surprised why I needed a DOM cage and I said I planned on racing it SCCA or oval track and he said yep it will need to be DOM, so I paid the difference and I will send this back Monday.
Hate to contribute to a growing snowball but you might want to consider racing hubs and spindles for the front end. If you decide to throw that heavy piece into a corner really hard something might snap up there if it is not beefed up. :Twocents:
Yeah Steve, I really don't plan on driving it that hard even if I do take it to a track so I am not really overly concerned with that right now. I can always upgrade later if I want to.
Quote from: Stevearino on September 12, 2014, 06:22:52 PM
Hate to contribute to a growing snowball but you might want to consider racing hubs and spindles for the front end. If you decide to throw that heavy piece into a corner really hard something might snap up there if it is not beefed up. :Twocents:
Aren't we kind of limited on heavy duty suspensions in these cars ? Good call on the DOM tubing I would not have known :2thumbs:
Quote from: Highbanked Hauler on September 12, 2014, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: Stevearino on September 12, 2014, 06:22:52 PM
Hate to contribute to a growing snowball but you might want to consider racing hubs and spindles for the front end. If you decide to throw that heavy piece into a corner really hard something might snap up there if it is not beefed up. :Twocents:
Aren't we kind of limited on heavy duty suspensions in these cars ? Good call on the DOM tubing I would not have known :2thumbs:
I wouldn't suggest trying to replicate the materials used in 1970 in this case. I would just buy something off the shelf available to any Saturday night racer and mount pickup points to accommodate the hardware. Indygeneralee is right that he can change this out in the future without having to pre plan for it now. We cut out front and rear clips from finished race cars all the time to improve them. The cage and the body lowering stuff that's different. It's integral and that is something to be sure of right now.
Beefing up anything about the spindle of Mopar T-bar suspension means making it from scratch. I don't think there is any aftermarket support to speak of. Not in the circle-track racing sense. The parts you'd need are not like GM or Mustang II stuff.
I thought I had read somewhere a few years ago about modifying a C body spindle (believe it was a 72-up) they are heavy duty and along the lines of the Dodge truck spindles, I am going to do some more researching on that subject.
I think even the stock B-body spindle's snout was a bit larger in diameter by the mid-70s.
found this, http://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/knuckleinterchange/
What I was suggesting would be possible down the road if need be would be a complete touring front clip assembly of which many are available pre engineered. No need for this to be manufacturer specific as it is self contained.
http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=8/category_id=23/home_id=-1/mo de=prod/prd8.htm
The more I look at this I may just buy these 2" drop spindles since they have the large 73-up brakes (and beefier spindle) and that way I won't have to raise the front stub, lower the body 2" and not have to jack with any of the suspension geometry and still have the correct look for a Grand National Daytona.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-76-Mopar-A-B-E-Body-2-Drop-Spindles-/121403031342?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c442f3f2e&vxp=mtr
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 13, 2014, 02:47:34 PM
The more I look at this I may just buy these 2" drop spindles since they have the large 73-up brakes (and beefier spindle) and that way I won't have to raise the front stub, lower the body 2" and not have to jack with any of the suspension geometry and still have the correct look for a Grand National Daytona.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-76-Mopar-A-B-E-Body-2-Drop-Spindles-/121403031342?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c442f3f2e&vxp=mtr
:2thumbs: We got a saying at the shop "keep it simple stupid" :2thumbs:
The 2" drop spindles would help. They would compensate for the taller tires and put the chassis back near the stock distance from the ground (with normal suspension travel & geometry). But that still leaves the body a bit on the high side for NASCAR appearances.
I think the 2" drop spindles + your original plan to raise the front subframe upwards might be the perfect combo. If you moved the subframe, say, 2" . . . that would put the front wheel hubs a total of 4" higher than stock relative to the car's outer skin. And that's with full normal suspension travel & geometry. That would look badass and still have more real-world drivability than it has any right to.
Whatever. You could just start by getting the drop spindles on the car and seeing where that gets you. It would be lightyears easier than doing the subframe mod, that's for sure.
Mike, I was talking about dropping the body 2" and then using the 2" drop spindles. But I mocked my seat up without the seat frames (so it's sitting on the floor pan)
and my head was only 5" from the ceiling. I spent some time looking over the pics of the Buddy Baker car again and also a few other Chrysler dirt track 500's and I see how they achieved the drop in the rear, they just shortened and raised the rear frame rails that is also why it gives the appearance that they notched it for axle clearance and you can see the bottom of where the torque boxes are are even with the rocker panels. Im switching back and forth so much but after realizing this and knowing I don't have much head room as it is now I may go ahead and raise the frame sections which would be consistent with a "stock floor body drop"
QuoteMike, I was talking about dropping the body 2" and then using the 2" drop spindles. But I mocked my seat up without the seat frames (so it's sitting on the floor pan)
Okay, so we are on the same page here. Getting the chassis 2" lower on the wheels, and then the body another 2" lower on the chassis . . . sounds about perfect IMO.
I love the torsion bar setup but it's an obstacle to getting the car very low. It demands at least 3-5" of chassis height underneath the floorpan at the driver's feet.
About your seat & subframe plans -
If you end up with the T-bar crossmember sitting higher in relation to the floorpan just behind it (or if you bugle the floorpan farther downwards for the same effect), then it creates a clearance problem for removing the torsion bars. When you try to slide the torsion bars out the back of their hex mounts in the crossmember, they start hitting the floorpan. (Notice that the stock floorpans have odd bulges underneath the driver/pass seats going straight back behind the T-bars.)
The T-bars could still be installed/removed by yanking the whole K-frame off the car. Maybe even by sliding the T-bars back just far enough to get their front hex-ends out of the LCAs, and then tipping the bars down to pull them out forwards. I dunno. You'd have to experiment a bit. I'm just saying the problem is something to be aware of.
Yeah, I took a picture of the front stub tonight and compared it to pictures of the Buddy Baker #6, I have looked at it for a while now, I measured 2" up from the bottom of my frame and ran a level chalk line down the frame and it is almost identical to the #6 if you chopped it there and welded a plate to the bottom even the torsion bar mount looks the same, but cut in this spot it would not "raise" the front suspension in the car?, It would also seem to be the reason for the raised torsion bar mount (for added strength since the original was cut in half), at 2" it is ABOVE the rocker point so you would never see any uni body frame there from a side view also it explains why the floor pans are not raised forward of the raised through the floor torsion bar mount, because if you leave the front floor pans in place you can only gain about 3/4" before the torsion bars hit the front of the floor pan. explain why the #6 is as low as it is and I have looked at numerous pics of it over and over again and compared it to my 69 and the body has not been lowered over the floor. Also on the rear if they just took 2" out of the bottom of the frame rail rear of the hump over the axle and cut it all the way to the factory spring hanger you would gain the needed travel to clear the raised axle from raising the front spring hanger up into the rear floor a little over 2 inches. I may see if I can get a hold of the folks that own the #6 and see if they will take some measurements for me. can't hurt to ask.
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Keep in mind the history of that #6 car. Official story or not, it's thought to be a short-track car which got the wing & nose added for show duty after a wreck. It might not be 100% representative of the purpose-built wing cars. These days everyone worries a lot about aerodynamics even for short tracks but that was less true in 1970. That survivor might reflect the typical lowering job that a real Buddy Baker wing car had at the time or it might not.
You might try to study or get pics of the surviving #71 Bobby Isaac Daytona museum car. Might be more representative. Or even the Ramo Stott Superbird, which is a true survivor from the era lifted right off the track.
Have you been following the Mopar Action series of Chrysler racing articles covering that era? A few months ago I recall one of the guys being interviewed talking about this subject. He specifically related that he saw the NASCAR guys separating the Charger bodies from chassis at the rocker panels and reinstalling the bodies at 1.5 degrees tilted.
Having said all that, it might work for your project's purposes to just trim down (well, up) the sidewalls of the subframe rails and re-weld a flat bottom back onto them. However that means 100% of the car's lowering job has to come from the suspension now, which may be a challenge even with the 2" drop spindles. It probably means notching the front subframe rails above the LCAs for more up-travel.
Also, shaving the bottoms of the subframe rails higher would probably not provide a ton of additional net-total ground clearance for the whole car. Not unless you also moved the drivetrain upwards & rebuilt the K-frame for more clearance somehow. The bottom of the K-frame is roughly as low as the bottom of the front subframe pieces farther back. Raising all that stuff might mean firewall/trans tunnel work.
And there is the exhaust header collectors in that area to think about too. It's already not easy to keep the exhaust from hanging way down below the subframe rails, BEFORE you trim the sub-rails to half their original height. That probably means notching out the tranny crossmember above the exhausts. Which would be another good reason to build added height on top of the crossmember inside the cabin.
All this stuff contributed to my preference for relocating some/all of the undercarriage up into the sides of the body somehow. I'm not convinced that leaving the subframe(s) in place really saves all that much work in total. It just means different work.
Mike, Yeah lot's to think about, I am just trying to figure out how they did it originally and from the pics of that #6 car (the only one I have seen from the bottom) that's all I can gather. I do have several pics of the Ramo Stott Superbird and I figured out how the hood hinges were done through the photos (but not much other than that), I would really like to see the #71 but I have all the pics of it I can find. I went ahead and just bought a set of 2" drop spindles from Magnumforce here about 15 minutes ago and I am going to try and find a set of drilled and slotted rotors, and mock it up again when I get the rotors to see what it looks like. I believe the only reason they chopped the frame down was to pass a tech inspection as far as how far the frame had to be off the asphalt.
I just went back & checked a few pics of the #6 C500 short-track car before it got wrecked (probably the #6 show Daytona's original identity) on an older DC.com thread. The front wheel hubs look pretty far up into the fenders even before the wing & nosecone went onto it. I dunno, it might be built with the same lowering job as the wing cars after all.
Funny that you bring up the hood hinges deal. I asked Ramo Stott himself about the hood hinges on his Superbird when talking to him at a show a few years ago. He didn't recall what they were taken off of.
Just eyeballing it, they look like Mopar A-body hinges of the period.
Mike, got a link?
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=63521.120 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=63521.120)
This thread, about the 17th page. Reply #420 from "Tallzag". Pics of (what many people suspect is probably) the #6 Daytona show car, before it was turned into a show car. It was a short track car that got wrecked.
Yeah, that does look like the same car sans the wing and nose, And yes I had heard a long time ago that they used A body hood hinges I need to start looking for a set, should be able to find a set cheap as there were a ton of A bodies made!
Also here is a pic of the #71 Daytona's and 500's ... They all look like they are set at the same ride height to me except maybe the 70 on the end looks a little higher (could be because the fenders are cut higher as well)
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With my Charger when I was going to do it up and still may the idea I had was remove the 2 floor braces to the rail,side and top and without the aprons in place the rails float kind of free. Now in putting the floor and aprons in Sons 74 Challenger without those brackets the rail was "free" and could be moved easily. its only connection to the body was where it was welded to the T-bar Cross member and with a little effort I could have lifted the front end of the rail at least 2 in. to the point the radiator support would have to drop to hold the fender line. The only thing I see is the front of the K frame would be lifted and tilted up in the front a bit and you would have to weld a piece of plate to the bumper brackets and re-drill the holes to get the bolt holes to align. Thoughts on this procedure...
QuoteWith my Charger when I was going to do it up and still may the idea I had was remove the 2 floor braces to the rail,side and top and without the aprons in place the rails float kind of free. Now in putting the floor and aprons in Sons 74 Challenger without those brackets the rail was "free" and could be moved easily. its only connection to the body was where it was welded to the T-bar Cross member and with a little effort I could have lifted the front end of the rail at least 2 in. to the point the radiator support would have to drop to hold the fender line. The only thing I see is the front of the K frame would be lifted and tilted up in the front a bit and you would have to weld a piece of plate to the bumper brackets and re-drill the holes to get the bolt holes to align. Thoughts on this procedure...
I don't think they would have done this as it would have really thrown the front end geometry off and even if they had the floor above the T bar would have had to been raised as it could only be lowered 3/4" before the T bars hit the floor.
I think you are on the right track to mock it up with the drop spindles first. Get a visual and go from there. Might be all you need to do. :Twocents:
Not trying to change the subject here but are you actually in Brazil Indiana? I am in martinsville, and go to over that way quite a bit. Would love to swing by in the 500 some time.
Daniel, yep the massive town of Brazil, Indiana! :lol: yep your not too far away! Your on my facebook friends list if your in my area message me (David Hughes)
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 14, 2014, 04:10:20 PM
QuoteWith my Charger when I was going to do it up and still may the idea I had was remove the 2 floor braces to the rail,side and top and without the aprons in place the rails float kind of free. Now in putting the floor and aprons in Sons 74 Challenger without those brackets the rail was "free" and could be moved easily. its only connection to the body was where it was welded to the T-bar Cross member and with a little effort I could have lifted the front end of the rail at least 2 in. to the point the radiator support would have to drop to hold the fender line. The only thing I see is the front of the K frame would be lifted and tilted up in the front a bit and you would have to weld a piece of plate to the bumper brackets and re-drill the holes to get the bolt holes to align. Thoughts on this procedure...
I don't think they would have done this as it would have really thrown the front end geometry off and even if they had the floor above the T bar would have had to been raised as it could only be lowered 3/4" before the T bars hit the floor.
I wish I could remember the pix, it was a Petty car and the rails went up a huge angle. I am sure it would have had other mods too.
Al, yeah I just don't know. I am sure every single shop did it a little different from the next, I am pretty confident that with the drop spindles and a few frame mods above the LCA I will get it looking just right, I guess we will know when I get the spindles and take some more mockup shots. I did find out I do have to mod the LCA due to the angle of the lower ball joint, with it lowered all the way down (LCA even with the tire tread surface) it is bound at that point and will not move any more.
I have read the 73-up spindle actually moves the tire out in the wheel well I hope this is not the case in the Magnumforce spindles but if this is the case I will shorten the LCA at the same time I mod for the ball joint bind, I am not worried about the uppers since I will make those myself since I have to clear the 2 shocks on each side and to improve the ball joint angle at lowered ride height.
FirmFeel has front end stuff, don't know if it is any good in your situation but I kinda sorta think I will be using their drop spindles and upper control arms which look like they have room for two shocks if I use them on my 500 and not do the 68 into a 500 clone. still on the fence on that one.
Al, I have not seen any aftermarket upper control arms that have the room to clear both shocks the UCA that the Speedway cars used looked like a U vs. V and that was to clear both front shocks also had another brace welded between them near the UCA tower. I will be building a jig and using some mandrel bent tubing to make mine with caster improvements and better ball joint alignment.
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 14, 2014, 10:04:24 PM
Al, I have not seen any aftermarket upper control arms that have the room to clear both shocks the UCA that the Speedway cars used looked like a U vs. V and that was to clear both front shocks also had another brace welded between them near the UCA tower. I will be building a jig and using some mandrel bent tubing to make mine with caster improvements and better ball joint alignment.
Sign me up for a set.. as any caster will improve the street manners of mine :2thumbs:
UCAs -
If you wanna U-shape them instead of V-shape, watch out for turning clearance on the rear (closer to firewall) UCA legs. It's tight from the factory. There is probably more room to widen the UCA's shape towards the front of the car for the extra shock.
The 73-up spindle geometry -
The upper ball joint is placed up higher and a bit farther inwards compared to the '69 spindle, thus tilting out the top of the wheel for more positive camber. The spindle was intended for a UCA that didn't stick out quit as far laterally.
Running these later spindles on earlier cars -
People have been doing this for decades. It gets on Rick Ehrenberg's (Mopar Action magazine) nerves, but another mag (Mopar Muscle?) tested out the idea years ago and found no reason not to consider it on a street car. The balljoints don't come near binding (better still check it at your severely lowered ride height!). The static alignment was a problem but it was manageable.
The static alignment changes were the biggest problem, which is totally fixable with non-stock UCAs. The changes to the suspension geometry in-motion were deemed not enough to worry about. Some dedicated road racers might care but the difference was pretty small.
QuoteUCAs -
If you wanna U-shape them instead of V-shape, watch out for turning clearance on the rear (closer to firewall) UCA legs. It's tight from the factory. There is probably more room to widen the UCA's shape towards the front of the car for the extra shock.
Gotta remember though with the drop spindle it will be moving the rim to a different position where I believe there will be even more room.
still quite a bit of room here even with my tire turned to full lock right with the stock UCA.
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QuoteThe 73-up spindle geometry -
The upper ball joint is placed up higher and a bit farther inwards compared to the '69 spindle, thus tilting out the top of the wheel for more positive camber. The spindle was intended for a UCA that didn't stick out quit as far laterally.
From what I have seen these Magnumforce drop spindles are closer to the A body version which were not as tall as the B body version
Hmm, yeah, your turning radius would be limited a bit in back by the tires already. I hadn't thought of that in regards to the A-arms.
I've actually thought about notching some clearance into the stock front subframes behind the shock towers for tire clearance. Even a normal 15" wheel and tire size is enough to rub the framerail back there.
With the extreme tire size you're running in front, it looks like even the firewall becomes a potential interference spot.
Here's a modern day pic of the #71 Daytona.
Looks like the floor is still attached to the rockers like stock but the drivetrain is raised up. The shifter is perched up pretty high and the whole tunnel looks fabbed.
(http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Dodge/69_Dodge_Daytona_DV_05_Amelia_03.jpg)
QuoteHmm, yeah, your turning radius would be limited a bit in back by the tires already. I hadn't thought of that in regards to the A-arms.
I've actually thought about notching some clearance into the stock front subframes behind the shock towers for tire clearance. Even a normal 15" wheel and tire size is enough to rub the framerail back there.
With the extreme tire size you're running in front, it looks like even the firewall becomes a potential interference spot.
Actually the tire turned like that on mine to full lock is about 2" away from the front frame rail and clears the firewall by a little over a inch.
And yes the whole drive train was raised in the car because the rear axle was raised up into the car and if they had not moved the engine and trans up into the car it would have thrown off the pinion angle, also doing that they increased ground clearance on the transmission and engine. I looked at a few pics of the rear leaf spring setup and I found a picture of a Superbird (believe the Ramo Stott car) And they cut the factory rear spring perch off and raised the mount up into the trunk pan 2" to level it out since the front leaf spring mount was moved up 2" as well so they could trim the bottom of the rear frame off so it was level with the rockers just like on the front frame rails. If you look at interior pics of the race wing cars you can see square boxes in front of the inner wheel tubs on the rear floor and that is where they raised the front spring perch into, they also welded a square plate on the bottom of the frame making a new "torque box"
Also if you look at that picture, see the odd box structure on the driver side under the dash? That was not for wheel clearance that is where the A body hood hinges were mounted on the outside of that panel.
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 15, 2014, 08:01:54 AM
QuoteUCAs -
If you wanna U-shape them instead of V-shape, watch out for turning clearance on the rear (closer to firewall) UCA legs. It's tight from the factory. There is probably more room to widen the UCA's shape towards the front of the car for the extra shock.
Gotta remember though with the drop spindle it will be moving the rim to a different position where I believe there will be even more room.
still quite a bit of room here even with my tire turned to full lock right with the stock UCA.
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(https://www.flickr.com/people/68837841@N06/)QuoteThe 73-up spindle geometry -
With stock suspension and 10in. rims 4in. backspace and 275 tires my right side rubs the firewall and the inner rail. The left side just rubs the rail.
The upper ball joint is placed up higher and a bit farther inwards compared to the '69 spindle, thus tilting out the top of the wheel for more positive camber. The spindle was intended for a UCA that didn't stick out quit as far laterally.
From what I have seen these Magnumforce drop spindles are closer to the A body version which were not as tall as the B body version
Well the drive shaft tunnel and torsion bar cross member came in today from Chris Alton Chassisworks, also sent the Roll cage back hopefully the DOM cage will be here toward the end of next week. Really at a stand still until I get the cage back.
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I have not seen a cage failure in person yet but I have to imagine there are strong reasons why ERW is not allowed in several clubs. I have inspected a DOM cage where the cage held up fine but crash forces were too high on the driver. Sometimes you can't control everything, so it makes sense to do what you can. I almost did not say anything about the difference, but figured it would be much more painless to find out now than later. Glad it was a beneficial discussion.
Yeah, better I found out now rather than later. I guess I should have asked first but I have only welded up ERW cages in drag cars before, not road race cars.
Great too see more progress on ya Daytona :2thumbs: :popcrn:. i hope your still going street legal as just race or track will sure limit use an enjoyment time. all the best on your build ,do it the way you enjoy it the most..Thanks for sharing ya build. :cheers: :popcrn: :drool5: :2thumbs: DJ
DJ oh yes, It will be fully street legal, we don't have vehicle inspections here in Indiana, as long as it has turn signals and brake lights your good to go although I am going to run some small HID headlights in the grille opening where the factory turn signals would have sat (as I don't ever plan on driving at night) and run a set of motorcycle LED turn signals beside those.
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 15, 2014, 08:38:10 PM
Well the drive shaft tunnel and torsion bar cross member came in today from Chris Alton Chassisworks, also sent the Roll cage back hopefully the DOM cage will be here toward the end of next week. Really at a stand still until I get the cage back.
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Is that reinforcement short on one end or is it supposed to be offset ?
Al, it is centered. Most people don't realize that the motor and transmission in all passenger cars are offset to the passenger side a little to compensate for more room for the driver (mainly pedals) I will run this cross member moved over to the passenger side as well.
I know it's a long way away to think about, but some decals came in today I bought off Ebay they are 1982 Contingency decals granted most are not period correct
more than a few were, The UNION76, MOOG, HURST, Valvoline,Ingersoll-Rand, figured $50.00 was cheap enough for them all! I have all the ones I am currently going to use laid out, need to find the Napa Regal Ride crown, M/P, Grey-Rock brake linings,Wix filters, I guess I have plenty of time to find them! :icon_smile_big:
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My rotors came in today, best deal I had found on 11 3/4" cross drilled and slotted rotors for 73-up big spindle, Summit had them for $140.00 shipped for both, thought that was a killer deal. I am still looking at the best choices for the calipers but I am still a ways from needing those so I have some time there, Going to pick up some Timken bearings, still no sight of my Magnumforce drop spindles. I did go ahead and order a set of PST 1.03 torsion bars, I had read numerous complaints about the bars but it seemed the problem lies in the offset and they would not get the car to the factory ride height, funny as it clearly states on the PST site that these bars are made to lower the ride height which is what I need in my case, plus the $219.00 for the pair was a deal as well. Also ordered a set of XHD Mopar rear leaf springs, I also have been looking at steering boxes I noticed Borgeson makes a modded box to fit Mopars (faster ratio than even the 16:1) but I have heard problems about these I am still looking it over.
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Shopping can be fun. :cheers: :cheers: Can't wait to see the cage go in.
Me to Steve! Still have to buy about 5 8 foot tubes of DOM yet for the other bars inside and the front stub cage.
Well, got some more parts in today! the Magnumforce 2" drop spindles and a big thanks to Mr. Kwiatkowski for selling me a set of original Monroe racing shocks! :2thumbs: My DOM cage will be here Tuesday so I can start installing the cage!
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Got a few questions. Where was the battery kept in the car?? Only place I can see would be the passenger side floor pan in the rear seat area under that panel opposite of the rear axle cooler (that is also vented under the car)?? Also looking to see what steering column and steering wheel were used? Closest steering wheel I can find is a late 60's Ford two spoke wheel (mustang, Torino) covered in probably 10 rolls of black electric tape! :lol:
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 27, 2014, 08:39:14 PM
Got a few questions. Where was the battery kept in the car?? Only place I can see would be the passenger side floor pan in the rear seat area under that panel opposite of the rear axle cooler (that is also vented under the car)?? Also looking to see what steering column and steering wheel were used? Closest steering wheel I can find is a late 60's Ford two spoke wheel (mustang, Torino) covered in probably 10 rolls of black electric tape! :lol:
65 Plymouth, the bar runs straight across .I got my wheel(cracked to death) off of epay for $25 or so. I wrapped the wheel with a piece of clothes line and black tapped over that,but I am going to re tape it.
Al, Yeah I just bought one a few minutes ago. off a 68 Chrysler
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321534641800?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
On some NASCARS (I'm not sure about years of this whatsoever) they were putting the batteries just behind the LF wheelwell, where the E-brake pedal would be. They had the inner sidewall there built farther inside than stock, with the hood hinge/springs mounted on the outside of it at the top. The battery was also on the outside of that inner wall, placed down low. I assume this location choice was probably about weight distribution.
David, I don't know if you are friends with John Craft on Facebook or not. His handle is Jac Hmguy. The HM stands for Holman and Moody. John is one of the foremost authorities on nascar history and race car development. He has done several restorations and faithful recreations of cars of that era. He is mainly a Ford guy but he has a wealth of knowledge. Also there is a guy named Tom Mooty who is a model car builder who has a photographic memory of all this stuff. He is like a savant. I suggest if you want to get in to the nitty gritty both of these guys would be of immense help. Also I don't know if you belong to a group over there called " Nascar History before 1972" but there are tons of pictures of lots of the stuff you are asking about.
By the way don't use electrical tape. Use friction tape. The glue from the electrical tape tends to ooze out and create a sticky mess.
Steve, Yeah I am friends with Jac on Facebook as well as all the old Nascar pages, I have found a lot of pics of the #71 on the Bobby Issac page, and yeah that had crossed my mind that the steering wheel would be pretty slimy and loose after a 90 degree day if I used the electrical tape! :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 27, 2014, 09:52:43 PM
Al, Yeah I just bought one a few minutes ago. off a 68 Chrysler
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321534641800?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Yep thats the same one I got with HUGE cracks and yes you are right friction tape would be better
The more I am thinking about the car I think I am going to run full door bars from the main hoop to the a pillar bars which means no opening doors! I think I will put a door on and see how well I can slide through the window. :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 28, 2014, 07:10:54 PM
The more I am thinking about the car I think I am going to run full door bars from the main hoop to the a pillar bars which means no opening doors! I think I will put a door on and see how well I can slide through the window. :icon_smile_big:
Get out yer Dukes tapes and see how they do it. :lol:
:lol: I am sure everyone would be rolling on the floor watching me get in it!!
I have seen a lot of these #71 cars and they did not have vent window frames (which I think looks better) make it easier (and lighter) getting rid of all the side glass and regulators. all the ones in the lineup pic appear to have no vent windows so I take it these cars would have not had any side glass whatsoever?
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QuoteGet out yer Dukes tapes and see how they do it
QuoteI am sure everyone would be rolling on the floor watching me get in it!!
Would you do any worse than "Coy Duke" did during the audition process?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7EefnfSIYg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7EefnfSIYg)
:lol: :smilielol: Mike, I will take it a bit slower! been a minute since I have seen that video! :2thumbs:
Also bought 5 bags of black diamond blasting abrasive today at tractor supply company, really nice stuff if anyone uses a sand blaster paid $7.00 for a 50 lbs. bag
I blasted the driver rear frame rail (had light surface rust) then sprayed it with epoxy primer. Need to build a small booth around the car with plastic so I can blast the back half of the Charger and floor and inner roof. then put it in Epoxy and go ahead and weld in the trunk pan,and quarters in for good!! Need to switch the abrasive I have in my sand blasting cabinet for this black diamond coal slag!
You could always leave the top door bar out . With mine I am thinking of using straight bars just a few inches higher than the seat cushion unless something turns up where you can get track time in the future :Twocents:
Al, yeah I think I am just going to run with the doors welded to the cage, I pulled all the door glass and vent windows out today and installed the doors back on the car, I am leaving the door strikers on now until I get the quarter panels installed (I never removed or moved the rear striker and they were aligned perfect) after the quarters are welded on I will take the doors off and remove the strikers and door hinges, then weld brackets to the door skin and the cage to attach them. I can't get over the weight difference in the door without all the glass and window regulator.
Not sure if it was 1970 or not but somewhere along the line they ditched the inner door all together and just hung the skins. This allowed the door bars to extend in to the door and created a much stronger convex shape more durable on impact. I know by 73 this was the case because of the Bobby Allison Chevelle I restored.
The rule changes for the window stuff all happened about 1970. They went from requiring roll-up side glass (and the drivers wanted it for aero reasons) to running no glass/mechanisms and bulged out door bars.
Here are some pictures of the way the cage went into the door skins on the Bobby Allison car. Sell those good doors and get some skins :yesnod: :yesnod:
Steve, yeah that's the way I want to do mine. Think it would give me a little more room getting in and out!
Got my A body hood hinges today as well Thanks Allen! (41Husk) Also blasted the lower control arms in the cabinet, doors are bare, if anyone needs complete side glass with regulators I am selling it all front and back! Also got the DOM main hoop and roof halo bar today, rest should be in tomorrow.
I got the rest of the trunk lid trimmed up tonight, tacked the closeout panel on, traced it pulled it back off then bent the lip up still have some fine tuning with the hammer and dolly but overall really happy with it. I went ahead and ordered a set of Daytonalos trunk hinges and weld on mounts although I have the pattern Larry Roper gave me, I looked at the one Daytonalo made and they looked really nice so I figured heck why not spend some more money.... :lol:
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Looks like your cage came in too. :2thumbs: or is that an older picture?
Steve, yep cage came in. Just sat the main hoop in the car so I wouldn't be tripping over it! I am going to mock up the new drop spindles tonight and see how much further the wheels go up. Still may do the 1.5 degree rake.
:2thumbs: :popcrn:
Quote from: Indygenerallee on September 30, 2014, 07:51:48 PM
I got the rest of the trunk lid trimmed up tonight, tacked the closeout panel on, traced it pulled it back off then bent the lip up still have some fine tuning with the hammer and dolly but overall really happy with it. I went ahead and ordered a set of Daytonalos trunk hinges and weld on mounts although I have the pattern Larry Roper gave me, I looked at the one Daytonalo made and they looked really nice so I figured heck why not spend some more money.... :lol:
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Nice work. I like the vintage nascar look.Were did you get your steel close out panel for the trunk lid? Also what tool did you use to fold over the trunk lip onto the close out panel?
Crabtree, I bought the closeout panel from Gene Gregory a little over 2 years ago (around $400 bucks) And as far as bending the lip over I have a set of duckbill vise grip pliers that are about 5 inches wide and I just used those to bend the lip up (it isn't straight across 21 1/2" in middle and around 21 5/8" on outside edges)
I have been looking around for a race Daytona style gas cap I found a few different ones does anyone have a measurement on the gas cap??? Here is one I found on Ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221316991526?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Quote from: Indygenerallee on October 02, 2014, 06:35:33 PM
I have been looking around for a race Daytona style gas cap I found a few different ones does anyone have a measurement on the gas cap??? Here is one I found on Ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221316991526?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I had originally thought of using a filler neck and cap of a rear fill tank and hose to the cell neck ..
Al, Yeah I am going to run a tube just like the race version to the fuel cell. I thought this gas cap looked close to all the vintage pics I have seen plus it has the tube.
We were talking about wrapping the steering wheel with electrical tape I came across this article and found it interesting!!
QuoteThe Ford Jarrett was driving held together and he was able to win his first Grand National race that night. The win came with a price though. In those days, drivers used to wrap their steering wheels with electrical tape to give them more grip, and to ease some of the vibration and shock transmitted through the rim of the wheel. One of Jarrett's friends tried to be helpful and wrapped the wheel for Ned, but went clockwise with the tape, rather than counterclockwise as it was supposed to be done. Thus every time the wheel spun through Jarrett's hands coming out of the corners onto a straight, the raised edge of the tape tore away at the flesh of his palm and fingers. By the time the race was over, Jarrett had wounds in his hands so severe bone was showing in places. Despite those painful injuries, Ned had to drive in and win the next night's event to be able to make good the check. In an awesome display of guts, Jarrett started the next night's race at the Charlotte Fairgrounds, before eventually calling on relief help from Joe Weatherly, who happened to be in the pit area just watching the race. Lee Petty looked strong early but lost an engine mid-race. Weatherly eventually called for relief too, and Junior Johnson, who had lost an engine on lap 76, hopped into the car, eventually piloting Jarrett's Ford to victory lane.
Quote from: Indygenerallee on October 02, 2014, 08:13:11 PM
Al, Yeah I am going to run a tube just like the race version to the fuel cell. I thought this gas cap looked close to all the vintage pics I have seen plus it has the tube.
Gotcha, my notebook has a few pages filled in so far and I am sure there will be many more especially when you start cutting to put that T bar cross member in. One of my early ideas was to take it the way you had it pictured and cut the floor open and fit the new crossmember down into the original one and notch for the T bar mounts and weld it silly. Of what you have seen so far what do you think of the roll cage notching and fitting ?
Al, The cage is really nice has lots of extra material for trimming, I am not going to install the cage until I get the back half inner structure sand blasted I have to go pick up 15 bags of black diamond tomorrow, once that is done and it's in epoxy I will install the quarters,tail panel,vega hatch, etc. then I need to figure out how to get to the 1.5 degree body lowering but I cannot do that until I have the whole back sheet metal welded on that way I can hinge it at the back and then lower it over the front frame, Once that is all done then I can install the cage and then the last step will be to put it back on the rotisoree and cut the frame rails down and re-weld those and then install the new torsion bar cross member. Lot's of work! :icon_smile_big:
When you start dropping the body down over the rails :drool5: tape a video camera to your hat so we all can watch :smilielol: :smilielol: :lol:
Won't be all that dramatic! :icon_smile_big: I'll be sure to take plenty of pics though!!!
Indy,
I don't know how you were planning to man handle the body but if I had a 2 post lift like you do this is how I would have handled it on my project. This a picture I downloaded from the West Coast Restorations SRT-8 Roadrunner project before they took pictures down from their facebook site. You can see that they welded some square tube across from "C" post to "C" post in the back and then just used some lumber in the front to support the body by the roof to lift it off and on the chassis for positioning. In your case you could add shim blocks at the rear "C" post brace until you got the angle of attack you were looking for. :Twocents: Sorry for the grainy pic. It is scanned from a hard copy.
Steve, Yeah what I was thinking of doing is after I get the rear sheet metal on use the tail panel to trunk floor as the hinge "pivot" that way the body stays level side to side and I don't actually ever cut the whole body off the unibody at any time, After it is welded I will just lower the body down and the tail panel will bend slightly until I get the rake where I want it. I may just use two small floor jacks at the front of each rocker panel to let the body down gradually, My lift is nice but limits space working around it.
I like to use aluminum trailer jackstands for this sort of thing.
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTsCtirsJ1Wfenuvxg4JcrZJcMye7uNCPM420VYZDXNBihYACPo)
You can buy a bunch of them cheaply. They are threaded adjustable which makes all the difference - huge improvement over regular notched car jackstands or hydraulic jacks that can leak down gradually.
Each one isn't built to hold tons of weight. But they don't really need to hold up that much as long as the car isn't all in one piece.
Quote from: Stevearino on October 03, 2014, 06:45:56 AM
Indy,
I don't know how you were planning to man handle the body but if I had a 2 post lift like you do this is how I would have handled it on my project. This a picture I downloaded from the West Coast Restorations SRT-8 Roadrunner project before they took pictures down from their facebook site. You can see that they welded some square tube across from "C" post to "C" post in the back and then just used some lumber in the front to support the body by the roof to lift it off and on the chassis for positioning. In your case you could add shim blocks at the rear "C" post brace until you got the angle of attack you were looking for. :Twocents: Sorry for the grainy pic. It is scanned from a hard copy.
You can also use a 3x3 square tube with an adapter to your cherry picker (top side) to lift the body like tis as well.
Also on my clone car, I left the hinges to open and left the top door bar off. Had to clearance to open it but will be way easier to get in. Don't have a pic here at work of it.
Looks nice v21, got any finished pics?
Well, got a bit done today as far as setting up my cheap blasting tent, made a run to Harbor Freight and bought the plastic (plus got another free magnetic parts tray! :lol:) Also ran by Tractor supply company and picked up eight 50 pound bags of Black Diamond media. I put the plastic up and started blasting on the inner (outer) roof on the passenger side worked great biggest problem was lighting inside the "tent" so I went ahead and quit for the evening. I have to go pick up a couple bulbs for my stand up work light tomorrow morning and hopefully by tomorrow evening I have everything I need blasted done. This Black Diamond stuff works excellent and I have not had a clog in the gun yet and they claim it's re-usable up to 3 times which is a big plus!
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By the pix. I see you made the same cut I did on the outer wheelhouse. My idea is to use 24ga. sheetmetal and tack it to the quarter skin and the lip thats left. :Twocents:
Al, Yeah I will Install the quarters first then make one side outer wheel tub will be flat going out towards the quarter although I don't think I am going to tack them to the quarter I think I will cut slots on the outer edge of the wheel tub and roll the edge up and there will be a piece of foam along the edge to keep it from chaffing the quarter panel skin the only place it will be welded will be to the trunk drop off, rear of the rocker and to the cut I have made. I will put the car back on the rotiserre when I do this so I don't have to weld upside down!! :lol:
I hear ya on the welding upside down. You just gave me an idea, instead of welding the flange to the quarter use windshield urethane (tube not roll) and "glue" it which will give it a little flex but has a grip like Godzilla and its less expensive than panel bonding material and a gun for it. :yesnod:
Indy, check your pm's
Quote from: Highbanked Hauler on October 05, 2014, 03:31:47 PM
I hear ya on the welding upside down. You just gave me an idea, instead of welding the flange to the quarter use windshield urethane (tube not roll) and "glue" it which will give it a little flex but has a grip like Godzilla and its less expensive than panel bonding material and a gun for it. :yesnod:
Indy, check your pm's
This is a good idea. On the cars at work we run aluminum crush panels from the steel tub out to the body cutting them about 1/8" shy of the quarter panel shape. We just use silicone to adhere them and it works like a charm but we intend for them to be easily removed so the windshield urethane would be a better deal for a more permanent installation.
Well after 6 hours of blasting I finally got i done, I was planning on going ahead and shooting some epoxy primer but I realized I did not have enough thinner to clean the gun so I will do that tomorrow evening, then after that I can finally install the rear sheet metal!!!
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Looks great all cleaned up. :cheers:
Quote from: v21hemicharger link=topic=113047.msg1401436#msg1401436 date=1412416672
Any pictures yet?
Well, I got the sheet metal epoxy primed I blasted Sunday night, went ahead and drilled out the stock shock cross member as that would be in my way using my quad shocks also cut the passenger rear leaf spring mount and made a notation on the frame rail exactly where the center of the stock bolt was that way I can make sure it's raised up 2" I will cut the driver side before I weld it to the frame rail, the passenger side quarter panel is on for good no more taking it back off!! ground the flanges to be welded on the body and the quarter, drilled my holes to plug weld and used some SEM Copper weld thru primer on all the joints. Still need to adjust the door in at the top to bring the bottom out before I do any welding but the door is level and body lines line up perfect to the quarter. I will hopefully get the driver quarter on tomorrow night then I can install the dutchman panel, do any final adjustments and set the panels with self tapping screws then fire up the MIG!!
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Went ahead and installed the driver quarter tonight and trimmed up the dutchman panel and clamped everything in position, I had a couple Goodyear slicks (27.5x12x15) and figured I would install one on a rim to see what it would look like versus the 275/60/15 needless to say I think it looks more appropriate! I think I will trim the fenders and quarters to fit these tires at ride height and run these when I do race it and just run the 275/60/15's when I plan on driving any distance, finally starting to look like a Charger again!! :lol:
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Anyone know who this seller is on Ebay!? Really rude seller. I bought a set of these Daytona trunk hinges back on Sept. 29th and had not heard anything on them so I asked today when they were going to be shipped and for a tracking number and get a rude message about "just going to give me a refund because he does not want to sell them to me" !!! WTH!?? I guess I will just make my own off the template Larry Roper gave me...
Here is his and my replies (starts going bottom up)
QuoteHere's what happened
Oct. 10 :
The seller refunded you through Paypal
Oct. 10 :
The seller sent a message
Comments:
I sent a message that they item was going to be delayed !! They are ready to ship in fact was going to do it today . I will refund your money as I would rather not sell you my item
Oct. 10 :
You didn't get the item
You requested:
The item
Comments:
Just wondering when you will be shipping these?? I never got a tracking number. Thanks
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221312580093?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Quote from: Indygenerallee on October 10, 2014, 10:26:40 AM
Anyone know who this seller is on Ebay!? Really rude seller. I bought a set of these Daytona trunk hinges back on Sept. 29th and had not heard anything on them so I asked today when they were going to be shipped and for a tracking number and get a rude message about "just going to give me a refund because he does not want to sell them to me" !!! WTH!?? I guess I will just make my own off the template Larry Roper gave me...
Here is his and my replies (starts going bottom up)
QuoteHere's what happened
Oct. 10 :
The seller refunded you through Paypal
Oct. 10 :
The seller sent a message
Comments:
I sent a message that they item was going to be delayed !! They are ready to ship in fact was going to do it today . I will refund your money as I would rather not sell you my item
Oct. 10 :
You didn't get the item
You requested:
The item
Comments:
Just wondering when you will be shipping these?? I never got a tracking number. Thanks
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221312580093?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
That's DC.com member Daytonalo ( Larry ). :Twocents:
Heard from Larry tonight, hopefully I will get a set this next week sometime!! :2thumbs:
Spent a while today on the Charger managed to get the quarter panels, dutchman panel and trunk gutters welded on. The spot welder did a perfect job welding the trunk gutters and assorted brackets under the dutchman panel. I did not weld the quarter panel to door jam yet as I am going to do that last. Went ahead and doing some measuring for the vega hatch and doing some trimming on my 73 Charger AMD dutchman panel for the front gutter for the Daytona. really just need the trunk hinges so I can mount my trunk lid and get the window plug dialed in to be exactly where it looks right. Ran out of weld through primer or I would have got more done. Should have the back sheet metal work finished by this next weekend! Then on to cutting the rockers and dropping the body!
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I already have a file started with your procedure pictures. :2thumbs:
Al, I still have a long way to go!! I just can't wait until the wing and nose goes on!!! :icon_smile_big:
Well I managed to get the driver side rear frame rail welded in and the rear cross member welded to both rear frame rails, installed the trunk pan and marked the frame location on the underside so I can pull it out and drill the weld plug holes. Also have not got very far on getting my trunk hinges from Daytonalo.... That's as much as I am going to say on that :brickwall:
I know some race Daytona's ran the vent line out the driver rear top of the quarter panel, all I can find of the #71 K&K is the vent in the center behind the rear glass? Were they in that same position from the early to late #71 K&K Daytona's???
good stuff :drool5: :popcrn:
Quote from: Indygenerallee on October 19, 2014, 06:42:06 PM
I know some race Daytona's ran the vent line out the driver rear top of the quarter panel, all I can find of the #71 K&K is the vent in the center behind the rear glass? Were they in that same position from the early to late #71 K&K Daytona's???
Look at your avatar: it's in front of the wing, over the filler, like most Nichels build cars were.
Thanks for the pics Greg, never noticed it there before! I guess the only one I had seen was the #71 Salt car that was behind the rear glass in the dutchman panel.
Some guys would run it out of the rear panel, by the 1/4 extension.
Yeah, That is the main place I have seen them on the driver side tail panel near the top (cut the quarter panel extension) I wonder why they ran it there on the quarter panel just in front of the driver wing, after you pointed it out I ran back through all my pics and I finally saw it (kinda hard its so small) but in most of the pics it appears the vent is white?? Unless it is some sort of reflection off of it.
:popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :drool5: :drool5: :icon_smile_question: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :popcrn:
On cars with the fuel vent on top of the quarter panel forward of the wing, it is possible that the chassis pre-dates the installation of the nose and wing.
:popcrn: :popcrn: :drool5: :popcrn: :popcrn: :icon_smile_question: :icon_smile_question: :icon_smile_question: :icon_smile_question: :cheers: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :cheers:
Ill have some updates with more pics hopefully this next month! :2thumbs:
Quote from: Indygenerallee on March 26, 2015, 08:03:19 AM
Ill have some updates with more pics hopefully this next month! :2thumbs:
I was wondering how you were doing with the car...
Quote from: Indygenerallee on March 26, 2015, 08:03:19 AM
Ill have some updates with more pics hopefully this next month! :2thumbs:
:popcrn:
:shruggy: :popcrn: :popcrn: :drool5: :2thumbs:
I still have it, and been busy with work and a other "quick" project :eek2: I will get back at it here hopefully this fall.