A few questions for those who have a Silver Sport OD auto in your Charger. (or similar 4L60 E)
Does it use a GM converter and flywheel ?
Does it have a limp home mode?
Mini starter work with it?
I have a Silver Sport 4L60E behind a 426 in my 69 charger. It is a VAST improvement over the torque flight . The transmission controller is fully adjustable as far as shift point/firmness and converter lockup. I'm pretty sure the converter and flywheel are GM products, they came as a complete package from Silver Sport. Silver Sport is the new management of this company, and they were bought by a retired businessman who bought the company, liked their products, but was horrified by their business practices and legendary poor customer service. He turned the place around. Can't remember the old name.
4L60E's are a common transmission. What you can't find anywhere else is the custom GM - Mopar bell housing. Mine has a mini starter that I put in for header clearance. Can't remember whether the full size starter would have worked or not. When I got my order, EVERY part I need except a Lokar flexible dipstick was there, fit perfectly, and worked great.
The instructions are complete, specific, easy to follow, and include pictures and templates to put a small dill pickle sized indent in the transmission tunnel.
The electronic controller is "Simple Shift" made by Powertrain Control Solutions. Certain error codes do put it in "limp" mode. The only error codes I've had are when the TPS was not calibrated because I was messing with something else and threw the adjustment off. 5 minutes later, good to go. (no Limp mode with that one) I mounted mine above the fresh air intake by my left foot.
If you can afford it, you'll love it. I can't emphasize enough how easy, complete and year/model specific the instructions were.
Ray
wow! That is right on.
How much was the kit and did you use your existing trans mount?
I have a Keisler Stage2 behind a 440-6 in my '69. I posted a thread on the install, here's a link:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62840.0.html
Bandit360 pretty much nailed it. Since I got mine before Silver Sport took over there were a few snafus, but most were remedied quickly. Luckily I experienced some good customer service from Keisler at the time.
I also have a different controller than the new ones they provide, mine requires a laptop for tuning and can be cumbersome that way. I spoke to Silver Sport and the upgrade is pretty easy just involving a swap out. I may look into that next season.
Everything came in my kit as well with the exception of the driveshaft, which I provided them measurements once everything was installed. I then had the driveshaft in less than a week, the price was included in the kit.
The car is a pleasure to drive, you almost forget you're in an old muscle car. With 3:91's out back I can cruise on the highway 85mph+ without vibration.
Installation was easy too, I just had to drop it back down once as I did not dimple the floor enough the first time.
Thanks for the replys.
I have a 518 transmission in the '73 Charger. I was debating fitting one to the '70 or going the Silver Sport route. The 4l60E looks like it will fit better. It also has a 3.06 first gear which is better than the 518's 2.45 ratio. Converter choices would be better. I certainly would enjoy a drop project for a change.
I do like the Torqueflight feel of the a518 transmission. Either way overdrive was one of the best things I have done to the '73.
What torque rating did you get? Their rep at the Nats. said they had 450,550,and 650 models.
Quote from: flyinlow on November 06, 2017, 11:18:18 PM
Thanks for the replys.
I have a 518 transmission in the '73 Charger. I was debating fitting one to the '70 or going the Silver Sport route. The 4l60E looks like it will fit better. It also has a 3.06 first gear which is better than the 518's 2.45 ratio. Converter choices would be better. I certainly would enjoy a drop project for a change.
I do like the Torqueflight feel of the a518 transmission. Either way overdrive was one of the best things I have done to the '73.
What torque rating did you get? Their rep at the Nats. said they had 450,550,and 650 models.
PATC has any type converter you would need for a a518.
Quote from: flyinlow on November 06, 2017, 11:18:18 PM
Thanks for the replys.
I have a 518 transmission in the '73 Charger. I was debating fitting one to the '70 or going the Silver Sport route. The 4l60E looks like it will fit better. It also has a 3.06 first gear which is better than the 518's 2.45 ratio. Converter choices would be better. I certainly would enjoy a drop project for a change.
I do like the Torqueflight feel of the a518 transmission. Either way overdrive was one of the best things I have done to the '73.
What torque rating did you get? Their rep at the Nats. said they had 450,550,and 650 models.
I got the Stage2 (550 tq) rating. I had the engine dyno'd after buying the trans, and it dyno'd at 572tq. Keisler reassured me that the trans would be totally fine, however. So far, so good.
I also run a mini starter.
Regarding price, yes the initial cost is expensive. However, when planning everything I compared it to a Gear Vendors which doesn't include a lot of things I had to buy additionally (driveshaft, trans cooler, torque convertor, lines, etc etc). I also would have had to rebuild the 727 the car came with. In the end the Keisler kit ended up being much cheaper. :Twocents:
I asked a guy from Silver Sport about their torque ratings. I was curious if an engine makes 600 ft/lbs but has street tires, would you need the HD version of the trans? He agreed that they based the ratings on what the transmission "sees", in other words, 600 ft/lbs with slicks is a whole lot more destructive than the same torque with a 255 series tire or one with short, stiff sidewalls for cornering. The transmission "sees" less of a load if the tires break loose easily.
Indeed kerndog.
On your way to a 10 second pass ??
Yup, all foot lbs available transfered to the pavement.
Wrinkle walled tires look cool.
Quote from: Ryan.C on November 06, 2017, 11:49:46 AM
wow! That is right on.
How much was the kit and did you use your existing trans mount?
Cost? Lots. The transmission comes with a custom mount. Bolt in. Fits perfectly. Your old one won't work. This transmission is longer. As another poster says, after you get it in, they tell you where to measure (weight on wheels), you send that info back to them and you get a new driveshaft a week later. Part of the complete package.
I don't drag anymore. My motor makes 755 ft lbs (on engine stand before I replaced Carter AFV's with dual FiTech throttle bodies -runs even stronger now). This transmission is only rated to 650. Think I'll be OK running down to Home Depot and back, but plan to add a driveshaft loop.
Would have rather had a 6L80E. Tons more custom work to fit that oversized transmission in though. Think you'd have to fab a complete new tunnel. Completely happy with the 4L60E.
Why not tell the price?
If you don't remember, say that. People that are interested in trying something different are sometimes swayed by price. What are people trying to hide by not telling what the conversion cost?
Quote from: Kern Dog on November 13, 2017, 09:09:09 PM
Why not tell the price?
If you don't remember, say that. People that are interested in trying something different are sometimes swayed by price. What are people trying to hide by not telling what the conversion cost?
Sorry Kern Dog. Didn't say because I didn't remember. You make a good point though. So I went upstairs and looked it up.
$6714 four years ago.
Ray
Yes, the crossmember (and mount) are included in the kit. Basically, everything needed to install it. Even the fluid.
Mine was $4674 back in 2009, including shipping (like Ray I couldn't remember & had to look it up). But, mine is the Stage2 (up to 550 ft/lbs). Price goes up depending on which stage trans you get.
By the time I tallied up a Gear Vendors unit, plus everything else to go along with it I would have had to buy separately and figure in a rebuild of a 727 I had lying around, I was WAY ahead just plunking down for the Keisler.
The parts didn't just fly out of the boxes & install themselves like magic, there was some trial & error involved and a few errors in the instructions & minor missing things. But Keisler at the time was very good at making things right and their tech support was good too. From what I hear SilverSport has really worked the bugs our & refined things so it should be better these days.
If you need modern day pricing just call them up or request a quote through their website.
I got a quote earlier this year and it was $6,234 for a stage 3 setup with everything except the trans cooler. Soon as I have the cash I'm getting one ordered.
Quote from: Bandit360 on November 13, 2017, 09:18:38 PM
Quote from: Kern Dog on November 13, 2017, 09:09:09 PM
Why not tell the price?
If you don't remember, say that. People that are interested in trying something different are sometimes swayed by price. What are people trying to hide by not telling what the conversion cost?
Sorry Kern Dog. Didn't say because I didn't remember. You make a good point though. So I went upstairs and looked it up.
$6714 four years ago.
Ray
Thank you, I was a bit too harsh and I am sorry about that.
I am touchy about the habit that some people have of purposely leaving price out when people ask. It is most common when people buy some great car and go online to brag about it. Others that are wanting to find the same thing sometimes need a price to lead them to what the going rate might be.
Thank you again. You are right, you paid a LOT. It is a desireable swap though and yours was built to their highest level.
Do they still make 700r conversions? For mopar anyway? Would be far less expensive to nit use all the electronics and it appears that most dont use the electronic converter clutch.
Are these transmissions compatible with the factory slap stick shifter? I'm interested in these as maybe next winter's project. This winter is paint.
Never mind. Just found the installation manual on their website and see the procedure to modify the slap stick.
Wow, that's a lot of money. (for me).
Quote from: ACUDANUT on November 14, 2017, 11:34:45 AM
Wow, that's a lot of money. (for me).
The Piggly Wiggly doesn't pay enough to pay the rent AND this transmission? :eek2:
Yeah, I cannot justify the cost based solely on fuel savings. I drive the car about 2000 miles a year. I'd do it for easier freeway cruising, a quieter ride and longer engine life.
In terms of gas mileage alone, any modification that costs more than a few hundred bucks will probably never pay for itself. OD is worthwhile for the other stuff.
Rebuilt 46rh, tq converter and all hardware to install just under $1500, course I made the tranny mount myself and mine is a driver, so while I am not expecting to make my money back, I can drive the interstate and get good gas mileage and at a MUCH lower rpm which is why I went this route. Going 70 at 2k rpm, is a whole lot better than say 3500.
The 4L60E is an awesome transmission - GM or not... tons of aftermarket support ---- for my Challenger I am simply going with a 518 - budget friendly but not nearly as optimal as a 4L60 --- I cant justify the cost of it compared to a $150 46RH that I already have
I envy some of you guys :2thumbs:
:Twocents:
Art Carr's 200-4r conversion seems like a better setup than the 700-r4 conversions. The 200 has better gear spacing.
From what I've heard, the 200 is not the strongest thing in stock form but it responds well to beefing up. The 700 can be strengthened but it doesn't reward that investment as well.
Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on December 03, 2017, 12:39:14 PM
:Twocents:
Art Carr's 200-4r conversion seems like a better setup than the 700-r4 conversions. The 200 has better gear spacing.
From what I've heard, the 200 is not the strongest thing in stock form but it responds well to beefing up. The 700 can be strengthened but it doesn't reward that investment as well.
I thought that sounded neat so I did some quick research. Seems like the middle of the range Art Carr version is about $2,700 and you need an adapter to mate it to the engine. Some people like this one from Extreme Automatics because it is similar but uses a bell housing
and works with a lockup converter (low end of $2,200 + $310 adapter + buy your own bell for some hundreds of dollars): http://extremeautomatics.com/th2004R.php#ea2004RStage3
Now these are both heavily beefed up transmissions and not just junkyard take outs. My quick and dirty math says it's well beyond $3,000 or even $3,500 by the time you get one installed (cross member, drive shaft, converter, speedometer cable, and so on). Definitely better than $5K+ in a smaller, stronger package. I know that's probably not terrible but for some reason I cringe to think of spending that kind of cash for a transmission. Although I suppose I could add up all the pieces for my 4-speed cars and come up with similar numbers... :eyes:
I love a nice overdrive trans that doesn't require floor surgery. I only have one automatic car so we'll see how I feel about it when it goes together.
Troy
$5000 automatics.... :scratchchin:
$300 used 4-speeds... :METAL:
Quote from: Rolling_Thunder on December 09, 2017, 10:39:33 AM
$5000 automatics.... :scratchchin:
$300 used 4-speeds... :METAL:
Yeah, but add the total installation expense: bell housing, clutch, flywheel, TO bearing, several linkage arms, ball studs, brackets, pedal assembly and possibly a cross member, hump, and driveshaft. To compare fairly, it would need to be freshly rebuilt. I have a Passon built OD that I got on sale for $900, bell $200, clutch/flywheel/TO $600, pedals $350, brackets and linkage $200, floor hump $100, cross member $100, gear lube $75. So that's well over $2,600 after tax and shipping but not including any labor for welding in the hump and Z-bar bracket. The 18 spline in my Challenger cost just under $1,200 to rebuild and decent cores are around $1,000 OR I think ready-to-go units can be had for about $1,800 so that's an additional $900-1,300 and no OD.
Yeah, if you build something from junkyard parts you can buy an awful lot of gas with the savings - but you can't save your sanity while driving 65 mph on the highway with the engine screaming at 4,000 rpm. Obviously mine is a compromise because that transmission won't hold up at the track but I drive probably 60-70% on the highway and the rest on back roads. OD is important as well as rowing gears but max effort on sticky tires is not even a consideration.
Troy
Don't forget carpet. Not a huge expense, but necessary.
I had received a quote from SST in August for the stage 1 kit and at that time it was $4,500 they did say the price was going up after the first of the year. It seem like a good deal to me. I currently have the 518 conversion in my car.