I bought a 1970 XH Charger from a car club friend. 383, 727, 8 1/4" axle:
Original 383 2 barrel, non original trans:
Solid floors. Needs a trunk floor though. Rear window channel seems okay. Lower quarters seem fine too.
Car was in a collision. RF corner took the most damage.
It came with a nice grille and front bumper, nice hood too. Fenders are fair. Valance is not great.
Look closely at the pictures: The RH fender apron is jacked up at the front, frame rail is obviously bent.
The cowl is slightly curled in near the point where the hood, fender and cowl meet.
That is honestly way more car than I was expecting.
That actually looks buildable. come to think of it, it is a perfect candidate for one of those Schwartz g machine chassis..
Luckily I have a set of frame rails from a '68 Satellite and an entire front stub from a '70 Belvedere. My initial thoughts are to have a shop put it on a rack and get it straight, then if it looks reasonably good, leave it. If not, I could then replace what looks bad or is wrinkled, torn, etc.
I have not dealt with repairing crash damaged structural parts. I've replaced quarters, roof skins, taillight panels, floor pans but I am entering a new place with this car.
I am amazed at the balls some of you guys have...cutting these apart and somehow fitting them all together again.
This car is a December build, same as my other '70. Bench seat, column shift, no clock or tach, A/C, PS, Power brake. Not sure if it had discs. I had to slip on the front spindles and rotors just to get it mobile. It has been sitting for at least 12 years. The engine spins over easy even with the plugs in it. No fender tag. Maybe a build sheet in the rear seat? Haven't looked that close yet. THe wheels and tires came from a '70 Polara I parted out a couple of months ago.
I have some "hand me downs" from my other car I will probably use on this one. It gives me the excuse to make upgrades!
Quote from: JR on August 26, 2019, 08:20:10 PM
That is honestly way more car than I was expecting.
That actually looks buildable. come to think of it, it is a perfect candidate for one of those Schwartz g machine chassis..
I can see the logic there....Their setup replaces the stock chassis. Cars like this one are solid from the firewall back so that might be an attractive option for some.
Did the Polara have A35 coded? :scratchchin:
Seems like a good buy :2thumbs:
Quote from: Alaskan_TA on August 26, 2019, 09:46:28 PM
Did the Polara have A35 coded? :scratchchin:
I'm not sure what that is!
Good score
Thank you. I know that a lot of guys don't want to tell what they paid for their projects but I wanted to do it. I figure that it might help others to determine a fair price to offer when they see these cars sitting in a field or somewhere.
The owner bought it along with another '70 10 or more years ago. Neither has seen the road in that time. This one has been outside the whole time. Vinyl top cars often have rusted rear window channels and rusty trunk floors and quarters. My red '70 had the rusty window and trunk pan but the quarters were solid. THis one seems to be in better shape compared to my red car aside from the bent front end.
That is a challenge for me though...the frame rail and firewall/cowl. I have my red car to measure from, I have factory service manuals for reference as well. I'm anxious but also nervous about screwing that up. I have all the stuff here to replace what is damaged.\
I guess I could put the red car on my level garage shop floor and start taking measurements, then do the same with the XH car.
Thanks, Bryan...I sent you a PM. :2thumbs:
Quote from: Kern Dog on August 26, 2019, 10:45:55 PM
Thank you. I know that a lot of guys don't want to tell what they paid for their projects but I wanted to do it. I figure that it might help others to determine a fair price to offer when they see these cars sitting in a field or somewhere.
The owner bought it along with another '70 10 or more years ago. Neither has seen the road in that time. This one has been outside the whole time. Vinyl top cars often have rusted rear window channels and rusty trunk floors and quarters. My red '70 had the rusty window and trunk pan but the quarters were solid. THis one seems to be in better shape compared to my red car aside from the bent front end.
That is a challenge for me though...the frame rail and firewall/cowl. I have my red car to measure from, I have factory service manuals for reference as well. I'm anxious but also nervous about screwing that up. I have all the stuff here to replace what is damaged.\
I guess I could put the red car on my level garage shop floor and start taking measurements, then do the same with the XH car.
Put it on frame pulling table, I did that to a dart with the same damage. Pulled it right out
I like that deal you got. I paid 5,500 for my 69 super bee I found in a field and it's in worse shape than this car.
What's the over all plan.
Luke
Quote from: JR on August 26, 2019, 08:20:10 PM
it is a perfect candidate for one of those Schwartz g machine chassis..
(https://www.feistees.com/images/uploads/2012/04/spaceballs-liquid-schwartz-t-shirt.jpg)
Thanks for the pics and price reference. Like everyone else, I think it is clearly recoverable and, like you, I amazed and intimidated by the body skills of some of the guys here.
Good score Kern,you can't buy much second generation Charger these days for under ten grand. Don't forget to grab that right front 70 Charger fender thats for sale in the parts for sale section. It's only $3600.00,but it's marked just for you from the original asking price of $3900.00.
They would be $15k plus over here.....mad I know....but there you go! Looks like a pretty solid starting point.
:coolgleamA: looks like a good deal :2thumbs: :popcrn:
Quote from: taxspeaker on August 27, 2019, 08:48:30 AM
Thanks for the pics and price reference. Like everyone else, I think it is clearly recoverable and, like you, I amazed and intimidated by the body skills of some of the guys here.
Yeah...I see pictures from some peoples builds...Entire rear sections removed yet somehow it all goes back together? Whuuut ??
I have seen CB do some extensive metal replacement but I have not seen anyone do it in person. I wonder if they use the Quarter panel skin as a guideline to line everything else back up.
Regarding the front: Since the doors open and close fine, I am guessing that the problems are limited to the frame rails. Soon I'll reach out to a few shops to see if I can arrange a frame tug.
Nice score, looks like a good project. Although far and few between these days, there are some good deals on 2nd generation Chargers out there still. I paid $3,000 for my '68 project 3 years ago. Wish it was a '70 like yours.
The purchase price reflects it being a 1970. Had it been a '69, the price would have increased by 5 grand and if it were a '68, the price would have increased another 10 grand.
:yesnod:
Lol...I so wanted to say the same....but was worried I would not make it out of here alive!
Come on, guys..
The seller admitted that he bought this and his other '70 in 1998 for $500. Yeah, TWO 1970 Chargers for $500!
The other car is a 500 model, a June build. 318-904 like my other '70. He planned on making it a Daytona clone but it will never happen. He has had a long habit of buying cars, hoarding parts then buying another car, hoarding MORE parts. etc.
Today I was there again to clear stuff out of the way. Going back Friday. I should be able to drag it home then.
Was going to post yesterday that it would make a great nascar or drag race, striped down Daytona. Frame pull ,then cut away the bent inner fenders and cage the front like a old race car?
Was the 70 polara rusted or to far gone ,for a old blues brother, cop car project ? :popcrn: :popcrn: :2thumbs:
That Polara .....
I considered fixing it up to sell but the market on C body cars is not strong. Demo Derby guys try to get them as cheap as possible. It had a rusty trunk floor, rusty roof and needed almost every interior piece since what was there was shitty and a lot was missing. It was a Hillbilly hot rod.
I paid $240 for the car and sold the 383 for $500, the axle was cut down to A-body width and sold for $800, The front discs sold for $100 and the metal was scrapped for $100. I still have some parts from it here.
Quote from: Kern Dog on August 27, 2019, 09:51:07 PM
Come on, guys..
The seller admitted that he bought this and his other '70 in 1998 for $500. Yeah, TWO 1970 Chargers for $500!
The other car is a 500 model, a June build. 318-904 like my other '70. He planned on making it a Daytona clone but it will never happen. He has had a long habit of buying cars, hoarding parts then buying another car, hoarding MORE parts. etc.
Today I was there again to clear stuff out of the way. Going back Friday. I should be able to drag it home then.
Heck of a deal in 1998. That's the same year I bought my first 70 charger. It was a non numbers matching 383 and 4 speed. It ran but needed restored. It costed me $200 and a running Honda 90 motorcycle.
Holy crap!
Imagine how cool it would be to be able to go back in time to grab up all of these cars that you could?
The whole concept of time travel has been interesting to me anyway....Going back to change stuff to improve your life by doing or NOT doing things...
Didnt realise 68 69 and 70 chargers varied that much in price, few grand as myturb says.
Looking online all 3 years seem to be around the same mark, maybe the 70 a little cheaper but not much
talking about drivers here.
Mark likes to joke around about the values of the cars. I am a smart ass myself so I can take jokes and sarcasm as well as anyone can. :nana:
I do like the '68 models from the outside. The taillights and open grille are great styling cues. The seats and console of the '68 models are not attractive to me though. I like the '70 style door panels as well. I love the open grille of the '70 as well as the taillight trim panel.
Now if you are talking about actual cars for sale seen on ebay, craigslist and other sites, I see many sellers are throwing out some over the top, outlandish asking prices and it seems that each seller tries to over-price the last similar car.
I really wish that I knew how close these people came to getting their crazy asking prices.
This car I just bought went from approx $250 in 1998 to $5000 today. What stock market investment would give you that return? Sure, inflation factors in but what would this car in this shape sell for 20 years from now? More or less?
The 1970 has been really popular with the show car builder crowd. The Fast and Furious movies, SpeedKore, Tantrum...all three have used 1970 Chargers. Not 1969, they picked the 1970 models.
I used to think that the fenders on the 1970 were longer but they are exactly the same length from the point near the door to the edge of the bumper.
R.C. knows that is B.S. Years ago it may have been the case that 70 Chargers brought slightly less money than 68/69 Chargers, that is no longer the case. 70 Chargers are bringing the same money these days as their 68 /69 counterparts are. I watch the market very closely. The Fast and Furious movies have put the 70 Chargers squarely on the map,and they are just as desirable as the earlier versions.
Great score. I can't believe it sold so cheap in 98. It wasn't sold on the internet at the time, that is for sure. Local sales by word of mouth are where the deals are found.
I did not see any engine :shruggy:? When you get it home post up more pic's. :2thumbs:
I do have the original 383 2 barrel and it spins over with a breaker bar. The trans numbers don't match the car though.
Quote from: Kern Dog on August 28, 2019, 01:55:39 PM
The trans numbers don't match the car though.
Well that does it, you grossly overpaid.
:lol:
Ha...
I might slip in the 727 from my red car. I'm planning on a Silver Sport 5 speed Tremec setup. That will free up a transmission, cooler lines, floor shifter & linkage and the drive shaft.....
I love REpurposing parts. It really helps defray the cost of screwing an old piece of shit together.
It looks like you are going to have his and hers 70 Chargers. This car would make a good Dirty Mary Crazy Larry clone. Just bolt on a 69 nose. You should have kept that Polara cop car!
Does a numbers matching drive train really matter ? It never has to me. :Twocents:
To me, the whole attraction to "Numbers matching" really matters when it is in a performance car, a performance model. 383 2 barrel? Nahhh...383 4 barrel in a Road Runner? Sure!
I just think that it is pretty cool when an old car like this is found with the original engine in it.
I still shake my head when I see an ad with the description "Numbers matching 318".
:cheers: Nice score! Did any interior come with it? I see some bucket seats in the background, I know they can be pricey as they look similar to the ones for a 70 Dart Swinger.
Looks like a fun project, good luck!
Quote from: Kern Dog on August 29, 2019, 12:00:02 PM
To me, the whole attraction to "Numbers matching" really matters when it is in a performance car, a performance model. 383 2 barrel? Nahhh...383 4 barrel in a Road Runner? Sure!
I just think that it is pretty cool when an old car like this is found with the original engine in it.
I still shake my head when I see an ad with the description "Numbers matching 318".
Very true. Who gives a rats ass on a Numbers matching 318 or a slant six.
Quote from: timmycharger on August 29, 2019, 12:26:05 PM
:cheers: Nice score! Did any interior come with it? I see some bucket seats in the background, I know they can be pricey as they look similar to the ones for a 70 Dart Swinger.
Looks like a fun project, good luck!
The car comes with a non original bench seat. Those buckets are for a '70 Challenger. This car has an XH in the VIN, this meant it was the lowest priced 1970 model Charger. To reduce the price and make the car more cost competitive, they built these with bench seats, column shifts, no console, no tach, no tail panel trim and the biggest engine available was a 383 2 barrel with single exhaust.
Great car. When I clicked on it I totally expected it to just be a roof with the rest of it looking like it had been soaking in a swamp. I have seen cars like this with asking prices of over $10,000.00 Having the floor pans intact alone is crazy for that price. Good on you to come across it. :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Thank you.
It is tempting to just flip it for double the money but for now, I am looking forward to the challenge.
Quote from: Stevearino on August 29, 2019, 07:29:01 PM
Great car. When I clicked on it I totally expected it to just be a roof with the rest of it looking like it had been soaking in a swamp. I have seen cars like this with asking prices of over $10,000.00 Having the floor pans intact alone is crazy for that price. Good on you to come across it. :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
You gotta love Chargers from the southwest! I have four of them, they all needed some metal work, but nothing like the New England cars that I am used to fixing!
For $5K imo you did pretty darn good ! Frame pull, whatever, still very salvageable candidate.
I think you did pretty good. My 7200.00 68 charger needed one rear frame rail a torsion bar cross member a full front floor pan trunk pan tail light panel rear valance both rear quarters both outer wheel houses and both front fenders and a rear deck lid. And I thought I did ok to own a 68 charger. Of coarse most of this I found after the fact. But after a year and a half I have it repaired primed blocked and ready to paint. One thing to remember there not making them anymore so saving them is the reward.
Quote from: Kern Dog on August 29, 2019, 02:33:47 PM
Quote from: timmycharger on August 29, 2019, 12:26:05 PM
:cheers: Nice score! Did any interior come with it? I see some bucket seats in the background, I know they can be pricey as they look similar to the ones for a 70 Dart Swinger.
Looks like a fun project, good luck!
The car comes with a non original bench seat. Those buckets are for a '70 Challenger. This car has an XH in the VIN, this meant it was the lowest priced 1970 model Charger. To reduce the price and make the car more cost competitive, they built these with bench seats, column shifts, no console, no tach, no tail panel trim and the biggest engine available was a 383 2 barrel with single exhaust.
My 70 XH Charger might have been born a plain jane, but not anymore. You name it, it has it now. :2thumbs:
You did well...especially since it came with a nice grill and some extra parts. A nice grille can bring $2k. Any numbers matching big block (even a 2 barrel 383 block) is worth something extra when selling. 318 or slant 6....nothing.
Here's what 35k buys you https://youtu.be/OiUOU0QO0qA
Thanks, Chris...The car DID look decent at a glance!
My other Charger was pretty solid too. I had a trusted buddy come along and he was able to spot an area with filler that I didn't notice. Funny thing, years later I noticed that the same quarter he pointed out ...had been either replaced or patched! HUh?
That catch you made on the rear window area....Nice work. The trunk would have filled with water every time he drove in the rain or washed the car. HACK work.
Quote from: cbrestorations on August 31, 2019, 10:58:36 AM
Here's what 35k buys you https://youtu.be/OiUOU0QO0qA
Perfume on a Pig. :buff: :paintingpink: :pigsfly:
I was able to get the car home today.
Plenty of obstacles in the way though. 2 NON running cars, an engine block, tool boxes, piles of parts, etc...
Yeah....
Each car had to be pushed out. Good thing that they rolled easy.
1970 Challenger, no engine or trans. 1970 Charger, 440/727....Then mine, the turd.
It is
O U T! The car has been in his back yard since 1998. The tag on the license shows 1995!
Pulling into my place now:
Floor pans inside are S O L I D !
Trunk floor....
The sides are solid. The center is not. I figure that I could replace the pan to the inner channel of each frame rail and make it look right. This would allow me to slip the one piece patch panel into the trunk through the opening rather than having to do it in 2 sections.
It came with a nice grille. Bumper has a dent in the left corner.
RH fender is really nice. Left one is rough. I have a hood, valance and replacement fender aprons.
Great score Greg! :2thumbs:
:cheers:
Looking good, :2thumbs:
Great score. Save the bad fender at any cost. I didn't on my 68 and bought AMD replacements. THEY DO NOT FIT!! I am in fender HELL. I so wish I would been able to save the originals. But they were just too far gone. Good luck and great score.
You must be the Thurston Howell III in your village down there in Haiti. ;D
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136013.0;attach=301258;image)
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136013.0;attach=301259;image)
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on September 06, 2019, 08:37:28 AM
You must be the Thurston Howell III in your village down there in Haiti. ;D
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136013.0;attach=301258;image)
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136013.0;attach=301259;image)
:smilielol:
DAM YOU !half my frigg'in bac-n-egger come out my left nostril read'in that..... "Thirston Howell III"
Great score...congrats and good luck on the build! :2thumbs:
Funny...For the record, that is NOT my place there.... :smilielol:
LOVEY,Will you please push the darn Charger!
Thanks for posting. Look forward to seeing how this evolves. :2thumbs:
Floors look great. Nice project :cheers:
Quote from: Kern Dog on September 06, 2019, 12:14:22 PM
Funny...For the record, that is NOT my place there.... :smilielol:
Looks like it's in Cali :nana:
I guess it is a matter of what you get used to. His place is a cluttered mess. I'm used to seeing his place like that. My stuff is usually tucked away.
Quote from: dreamcatcher on September 06, 2019, 07:57:15 AM
Great score. Save the bad fender at any cost. I didn't on my 68 and bought AMD replacements. THEY DO NOT FIT!! I am in fender HELL. I so wish I would been able to save the originals. But they were just too far gone. Good luck and great score.
The black fender is pretty straight except at the door edge where it looks like the fender was pushed back enough to close the gap and then the door was opened by The Hulk or Arnold Scwarzenegger. I have another '70 fender up the hill that is bashed BUT is solid back at the support brace at the rear. I get to do some more intense work on this car in terms of metal replacement.
It is weird to think that these cars used to be daily transportation. People drove them in all weather conditions, set stuff on them, Parked them on busy city streets....
My parents bought this one new when I was six years old,it was our everyday family car until 1982. it was driven in all kinds of New England weather including the blizzard of 78.
Quote from: Kern Dog on September 08, 2019, 03:21:58 AM
It is weird to think that these cars used to be daily transportation. People drove them in all weather conditions, set stuff on them, Parked them on busy city streets....
I still do
Yeah, well YOU are an inspiration to others! :2thumbs:
I just stumbled upon a video featuring another XH Charger in the same color and same vinyl top as mine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYO0dMf4LAM
Quote from: Kern Dog on September 08, 2019, 03:20:10 AM
Quote from: dreamcatcher on September 06, 2019, 07:57:15 AM
Great score. Save the bad fender at any cost. I didn't on my 68 and bought AMD replacements. THEY DO NOT FIT!! I am in fender HELL. I so wish I would been able to save the originals. But they were just too far gone. Good luck and great score.
The black fender is pretty straight except at the door edge where it looks like the fender was pushed back enough to close the gap and then the door was opened by The Hulk or Arnold Scwarzenegger. I have another '70 fender up the hill that is bashed BUT is solid back at the support brace at the rear. I get to do some more intense work on this car in terms of metal replacement.
Schwarzenegger
Congrats on the car. Good price for a fixer.
Can't wait to see what you do with it.
Thanks!
I plan to start on it next month.
5 grand barely gets you a front clip these days....
I am tempted to fix what is structurally damaged and see if I can get $10,000 on ebay.
Might do it...might not.
You can do that,but you probably won't find another one for what you paid for this one.
True.
Decisions decisions ?? :shruggy:
If you're going to sell it, don't fix anything...recent repairs, no matter how well done, are always a red flag to me...
Don't even clean it. :Twocents:
I decided to move ahead and repair the crash damage. I started a couple of weeks ago. First up, I knew that the right side frame rail and fender apron needed to be replaced. The rail was separated near the core support and it was bent and twisted. The apron was wrinkled bad too. I brought down stuff I saved from a '68 Satellite station wagon. Left and right rails and a core support. The rails were still attached to the torsion bar crossmember.
The rails were chiselled off first.
Don't let the pictures fool you, The metal on these is actually nice.
I had forgotten that when I parted the Plymouth wagon out in 2013, I had to cut off one of the K member bolts. Now I had to find a way to get it the rest of the way out. It was sticking up only a little bit but not enough to grab onto.
I welded a nut to it....
Then just backed it out after rocking it back and forth a bit. My guess: The heat of welding the nut probably helped a LOT.
I had to clear away the old sections of fender apron using a spotweld cutter.
The Plymouth core support and the Charger were similar but the top bar on the Plymouth only has a single oval hole to mount the fender. The Dodge has 2. This meant I was going to have to replace the top bar in the replacement core support.
First picture is of a top bar section from a '70 B body.
The middle picture of the green core is from the '68 Plymouth.
It was at this point that I started thinking of how I was faced with piecing this structural section together with parts from 3 or 4 cars. I wondered if I was going to be able to make it all fit, be square and level. I mean, when NEW, they had this stuff assembled using tabs, jigs and patterns. I'm just a guy learning this as I go. I have never taken on such a big project like this. Up to now, I have done panel replacement, quarter panel skins, trunk floors, interior floors, taillight panels, lower quarters, bodywork and paint. I had no experience with replacement of structural stuff.
I tried setting a left fender and the hood on to see if the left rail was within spec.
With the hood to cowl gap even, I looked at the gap at the hood to fender. It was not good. The fender was adjusted as far to the right as possible and it wasn't enough. It showed me that the left frame rail was 5/8" pushed to the left.
The left fender apron did show some damage near the core support.
I was not discouraged but it did seem like the more I looked, the more damage I saw. The left rail could have been pushed over to spec if I had a way to anchor the car down. I could have used a chain and a winch to bend the rail back but I decided to change the game plan to one that I had considered from the beginning.
For at least 10 years, I have had a front end section from a 1970 Belvedere out back, up the hill. A buddy gave it to me when he parted out a 4 door that was an abandoned Police car clone.
It is dirty but it is straight and has no rust. I learned that the 1966-70 B body cars use the same basic structure. there are a few small differences but for 1970, this Plymouth stub has everything in the same place as my own 70 XP car as well as this XH. 26" radiator opening, two holes each side of the top bar and the fender mounting holes all line up.
I brought it down the hill and began drilling out all of the spotwelds.
I mounted the K member I bought for this car. I figured that it would keep the rails nice and sturdy for the installation. It also gave me a way to lift the structure into place. I am doing all of this by myself. I have a bracket for the floor jack that wraps around the K member to keep the jack from slipping off.
The bare & rusty K member is the original. I suspected that it was bent but it measured out square. It may have had a twist to it though so I just went with this other one.
I had to back pedal a bit and remove the rest of the damaged Charger stuff.
You can see the buckle on the floor from the crash.
The right rail came off in a few pieces but since the left was in better shape, I was careful to remove it with no damage.
Typical of the rest of the disassembly, I used an 1/8" bit in the DeWalt drill for a pilot hole and the spotweld cutter in the Milwaukee drill.
All clear and ready!
All mating surfaces were sprayed with the recommended weld through primer.
Now the process of fitting this up into the car..... The structure and the car have interlocking bracing so fitting it up in there alone was going to be difficult. Fender aprons lay over the firewall bracing but the frame rails fit between bracing that is welded to the rocker panels and firewall. Nothing is just straight either. The rails spread apart wider from the firewall to the torsion bar crossmember. They needed to flex to fit into place but the K member had everything tied together. I had to remove the K member to squeeze the rails in place, then I put it back in to keep it straight.
It would have been a slam-dunk if I could have just raised it up and slid it rearward into place. That was not possible with the way that the frame rails are shaped.
Once into place, I used some screws to hold the rails to the torsion bar crossmember.
The top side also has a few screws holding the stub in place. The plan is to now hang the fenders and lay the hood to see how it all fits.
Oooops! I'm getting ahead of myself here.
I first had to weld in the cowl section that I removed. I had a few ways to go here. I could have used the original section but the top of the cowl was punched in. I decided to use the section from the Belvedere.
I had a better idea:
My cutting and fitting skills are better than my welding. I stitch welded but still got some shrinking and some warping. It isn't horrible but will require some additional finish work.
Now I hung the fenders and laid the hood down. I made a few adjustments and shimmed the areas near the cowl but the gaps look nice.
The right fender fits nicely. Before, there was a 1 inch gap at the rocker panel.
Hood fits the opening nicely too.
I feel that I have had some real good luck with this. The structure is only held in with a few screws but it sits level to the floor at the core support. The body panels line up and things are looking good. I will need a little more work on the cowl patch section to improve on the hood to cowl gap in a small area, but....
I am ready to weld it together.
I will be adding frame connectors and seam welding the frame rails to the torsion bar crossmember. I'm going to make torque boxes similar to what I made for the red car. I am tempted to make my own bracing for the shock mounts similar to the US Cartool pieces.
Great work...looking good. :2thumbs:
Thank you. I am enjoying this so far.
I'd bet that if I had another car waiting, I could do the next one in 2/3 of the time.
Great job :thumbs:
Quote from: Lennard on December 01, 2019, 08:17:29 AM
Great job :thumbs:
X2 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
How was everything Leveled and Squared ??
Wow, good job!
Quote from: ACUDANUT on December 01, 2019, 09:42:17 AM
Quote from: Lennard on December 01, 2019, 08:17:29 AM
Great job :thumbs:
X2 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
How was everything Leveled and Squared ??
Would you believe that I just got lucky? Nahhhh. Well, I did have some luck but I also measured at several points, measured diagonally and compared it to the other cars. This would have been much more difficult if I didn't have anything to compare it to. My red XP has never been wrecked so it was a great "pattern".
With the frame rails resting against the torsion bar crossmember, I had the front resting on jackstands under the sway bar brackets. I guess some credit goes to a level floor and straight parts. If the car had any twist to it or if the floor wasn't level, I would have had to shim a jackstand or make some other adjustment.
I'm just a rookie at this stuff. I used basic carpentry sense I've learned in wood framing to measure and fit it together.
There have been numerous times in my life that I have tried something new and had a hell of a time fumbling my way through. At those times, I have wondered if I am struggling because I don't know all the tricks or short cuts that the more experienced guys already know.
Lookin' good KD! :2thumbs:
Quote from: Kern Dog on December 01, 2019, 02:45:17 PM
Quote from: ACUDANUT on December 01, 2019, 09:42:17 AM
Quote from: Lennard on December 01, 2019, 08:17:29 AM
Great job :thumbs:
X2 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
How was everything Leveled and Squared ??
Would you believe that I just got lucky?
With the frame rails resting against the torsion bar crossmember, I had the front resting on jackstands under the sway bar brackets. I guess some credit goes to a level floor and straight parts. If the car had any twist to it or if the floor wasn't level, I would have had to shim a jackstand or make some other adjustment.
I'm just a rookie at this stuff. I used basic carpentry sense I've learned in wood framing to measure and fit it together.
There have been numerous times in my life that I have tried something new and had a hell of a time fumbling my way through. At those times, I have wondered if I am struggling because I don't know all the tricks or short cuts that the more experienced guys already know.
Yeah, That's the way I do things, just cross my fingers & hope I get lucky. NOT.
Looks good, just remember, they all started out the same way also. I have yet to undertake some of the bodywork that you or others have done, yet it gives me hope, my field is in Tool and Die.
Quote from: hemi-hampton on December 01, 2019, 05:22:20 PM
Yeah, That's the way I do things, just cross my fingers & hope I get lucky. NOT.
That is what you gathered from this? That I just slammed it together and hoped for the best?
You are not paying attention.
If you did read any of the text of the last 2 pages, tell me where you would have done this differently. You have your business logo attached to every post you make so you must be advertising to support your business, right? If so, you must have some experience.
To recap, I humbly admitted that I had not done this before but measured 3 cars to assure myself of where the rails are positioned. I used tape measures and levels. I made brackets and used tools. I used common sense. What else could I have done to complete this in a better way?
Looking good man, I'll be starting on my project Charger here soon. However, I'm totally new to all things "restoration" so even fitting and welding patch panels will foreign to me.
All of this was new to each of us at one time. I want to get better at welding patch panels without warpage. A buddy of mine can do it with such skill, the area needs almost no body filler.
I hear you there brother. It just amazes me to watch my guy work the metal. 64 years of dying knowledge.
Thanks!
I wish that I had someone nearby that was as interested in these cars as I am. I'd enjoy teaching some young kid what I know.
:scope: looking good KD ! nice work :2thumbs: :popcrn:
The same aspects used in carpentry will also apply as you stated. Square, level,and plumb,its not rocket science. Just like in carpentry, measure twice or more,cut and weld once.
Looks great! Once you get it welded all in there it will probably be better than new. As good as those panels line up, you know it has to be square. Using those good original parts also helps too. You will have also saved yourself a lot of money in the process. No telling how much someone like hemi-hampton would have charged to do the same thing you are doing. Great job saving another Charger.
Wow, very impressive work here! Nice job. :popcrn:
Thanks for the nice words.
Leon and I have had a few spats recently so I think his grudge carried over to this topic. I asked here what he would have done different and he has not responded. If he has expertise he wants to share, I'm sure we could all benefit from it. I am willing to learn.
Quote from: Kern Dog on December 01, 2019, 02:45:17 PM
Quote from: ACUDANUT on December 01, 2019, 09:42:17 AM
Quote from: Lennard on December 01, 2019, 08:17:29 AM
Great job :thumbs:
X2 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
How was everything Leveled and Squared ??
Would you believe that I just got lucky? Nahhhh. Well, I did have some luck but I also measured at several points, measured diagonally and compared it to the other cars. This would have been much more difficult if I didn't have anything to compare it to. My red XP has never been wrecked so it was a great "pattern".
With the frame rails resting against the torsion bar crossmember, I had the front resting on jackstands under the sway bar brackets. I guess some credit goes to a level floor and straight parts. If the car had any twist to it or if the floor wasn't level, I would have had to shim a jackstand or make some other adjustment.
I'm just a rookie at this stuff. I used basic carpentry sense I've learned in wood framing to measure and fit it together.
There have been numerous times in my life that I have tried something new and had a hell of a time fumbling my way through. At those times, I have wondered if I am struggling because I don't know all the tricks or short cuts that the more experienced guys already know.
Won't you be my neighbor ? :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Quote from: Kern Dog on December 02, 2019, 04:55:48 AM
Thanks!
I wish that I had someone nearby that was as interested in these cars as I am. I'd enjoy teaching some young kid what I know.
Where are you located? I'd love to learn more about body work/collision repair.
Northern California, East of Sacramento.
I took some self tapping screws and pulled the panels together that are getting welded.
I found that with the weld through primer on every mating surface, it was difficult to get clean welds. I tried different settings on the welder but could not get clean, flat welds. It could be my technique but the areas with no primer welded easier.
I had to grind every weld and use this deburring bit where the grinder could not reach.
I've had the same experience when using weld through primer. What I do is wire wheel the primer away on the surface to be welded as little as necessary. If there's an area where I can't remove the primer, I start the weld on clean metal, then slowly move on to the primer. It seems the weld puddle burns it away before the weld wire gets there. This works mainly on lap seams or plug welds, you can't do this on areas prone to warping. I am also a novice, so take that into consideration.
BTW, nice job on separating the panels with the spot weld cutter. My experience wasn't that great, but it was on rusty metal where the spot welds were difficult to see.
Thank you. This is my first time using this primer. Before, I'd just plug weld then use a primer over everything and either seam seal or body filler to smooth it all over. I've never had any work rust through a weld so maybe this was an unnecessary step?
The left side may turn out better if I can clear the primer off of the areas to be welded. There will still be primer in between the plug welds which should prevent corrosion between the panels.
The spotweld cutter I used was a NAPA store brand. I read before that BLAIR was a popular brand but the NAPA one was only $18 and looked good. The metal on both the Charger and the donor parts was 100% rust free... lucky for me.
I am on the lookout for another front stub from a 66-70 B body. I used this one on this car because it made the most sense and had the best chance of a square and correct repair. I had this stub saved in the event that I wrecked my red car so I need to find another. A Bay Area friend may know of a car near him so I may get lucky there.
It doesn't hurt to keep a front clip in case of an accident. I have an E body clip stashed,and I recently sold a 70 b body front clip to the guy who bought the basket case 68 Satellite convertible project car that I had. I need to pick up another b body front clip myself. I sold the other clip,because it was starting to deteriorate from being out in the weather. It was still usable, but it was starting to rust in a few areas. He used the whole clip,and brought me back the firewall.
Picked up a H code 72' Demon for $3800 last year.
matching numbers 340 & 4spd, all power, mirrors, TB's, scoop.
Complete car?
yes it is complete.
Heck yeah...
It seems that a Demon has been the unicorn in my life. I've had 29 A- body cars in all conditions from stripped hulks to running drivers and have yet to own a Demon. I love the Duster styling in them and the slotted taillights.
Good for you, man! :2thumbs:
Only 29 ? :o
It was complete with some rot too.
quarters, tail and drops. That just got replaced. Going to be mini tubed now.
Even with this work $$ i was fortunate that the value and investment in is very positive. If that is important to you.
Quote from: ACUDANUT on December 06, 2019, 02:18:29 PM
Only 29 ? :o
Yeah....Most were junkers that I parted out. Some were builders that got fixed up and sold. A few were just cars I drove awhile for fun. I still have 5 up the hill and 2 of them actually run and drive!
KD...very funny
I have 5.
2 are running.
Yeah?
It seems that some car guys, IF they have the room, seem to hoard the classics. I knew of a guy that had something like 9 Corvairs in his yard. Yeah Corvairs !
I actually liked those cars as strange as the early ones looked!
CB restorations seems to Hoard rusty Chargers. He drives all over to buy them too.
For me, the A body platform was where I started. My first car was a 69 Dart and even though I always wanted a Charger, these dang Dusters, Darts and Valiants kept popping up for cheap prices.
I bought THIS car in 1995 when I was looking for a car to make a home movie:
I had bigger plans for this car though....
Yeah....It is a Plymouth Duster but I called it General Lee 2.
Silly, maybe stupid but I had MORE fun in that car than any other that I have owned before or after. I made 2 home movies with the car with all sorts of stunts, off road and on. I drove it just like Bo and Luke drove the real General Lee....EXCEPT I used another car for jumps. I bought a '74 Dart Sport and did an identical paint scheme to it. I made 4 short jumps with the car between 25 and 40 feet and 2 long jumps before the car was way too screwed up to move. The biggest jump was 11 feet in the air and 87 feet in distance. Nowhere near the distance the real TV crew did but still pretty cool for a few amateurs with VHS video cameras!
You should convert those old VHS films to digital, and post that footage on YouTube.
You crazy SOB! lol
Glad I didn't hang around with you when I was a pup. I thought we did crazy s__t! :punkrocka:
Quote from: smithenhiven on December 07, 2019, 08:18:06 AM
You should convert those old VHS films to digital, and post that footage on YouTube.
I should !
I had some fun making the movies. Car stunts, wrecks, street and dirt drifting, jumps, a couple of rollovers and general sillyness.
I was the " Harbor Freight" of action movie makers!
Nice job on the metal work, looks great :2thumbs:
Thank you! I was hoping to get the sheet metal on today but I ran short on time. I did finish welding and grinding and got the suspension and steering back together. It is sitting on all 4 tires again.
Looks great! You saved that car's life. Should make a nice one. Can't wait to see an update with the front fenders, grill and hood installed.
I think before ya hang fenders.make a template of rht door leading edge with heavy card board or plywood an use it to check ,when working over lft door edge . I think pop out damage of lft door from inside,but upper door may need to drill few hole to pull buckle out in upper door body lines .
Ya car is coming along great an looking better..
? Ever hear of Foot-Pound auto body repair? 40 yrs ago I helped out a old body guy,he was great at saving panels. old day when a guy could fit in a trunk,you get in with phone book or card board,put it against inner quarter skin hold it with one foot an pop dent out with other foot.
he showed me lay front fender ,hood or trunk lid paint side down on lawn ,make sure no root or rocks in grass.apply foot.pound force slowy to pop out damage .saw him save panel many wood have tossed back then.. Other old guy showed how great round river rocks could pop out dents with no hammer marks.that was mostly on old round fenders 40 yrs ago too,ranch pickups an street rods . :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
I like A-Bodies.... I put a 510 inch INDY Headed BB deal in mine, used to drive it to the Track, give some Super Gas trailered guys FITZ.... then pass them driving home as well ?
I'm having a good time with it. :2thumbs:
You are doing a great job there. It must be very satisfying to see the car coming together.
:popcrn: :popcrn: Been 8 days from last post KD ,is it painted or running yet ?? any more progress or taking a Xmas break?
I have 5 a body cars an 2 run an 2 no engines.
you covered charger repairs very good . so whats next ,on the build? :popcrn: :popcrn: :2thumbs:
Hey guys....
I want to get out there in the shop but this new job has been keeping me too busy to do anything!
:2thumbs: :popcrn:
I'm right there with you! This is my current status as of the last 2 weeks on my $2000 '68 Charger. Torsion bar X-member up next.
Just as Trump is orange, Kern Dog is red.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136013.0;attach=303969;image)
Yeah....I'm Irish....No way to hide that!
And why would you want to?
Great progress, car is coming together nicely.
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on December 19, 2019, 10:40:36 AM
Just as Trump is orange, Kern Dog is red.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136013.0;attach=303969;image)
AND, Ponch is a wanna be Mexican. :smilielol:
Finally made some progress today. The holidays are over, I'm not going to work any more overtime so I am finally able to get back in the regular schedule around here.
Before Christmas, I took a bent and crushed valance and started working it.
I cut it so I could get a better grip on it to return it back to its original shape. I know that it looks terrible but I thought I might be able to hammer and dolly it back into shape.
A guy on the 1970 Charger Registry site saw my build thread over there and took pity on me. He shipped me a RH half of a valance.
Today I finally got back out there and started fitting and welding the two halves together.
First up, I laid the orange side on top of the green one and scribed a line.
Then I cut the green side 1/2" away from the solid line. This allowed me to use my air powered punch/flange maker to make a recess for the orange half to sit into.
After some measuring on another valance, I got the tow halves in position and started tack welding them together.
I had to cut today's work short but it looks like a few more minutes of tack welds and grinding and it will be ready for primer and some filler.
Hadn't seen the thread in awhile...the Charger is coming along nicely...keep it up :2thumbs:
Thank you. I hope to have the front end sheet metal on by Sunday night. We'll see.... :cheers:
Turning out nice.
Nice work KD, you should have no problem with that! :2thumbs:
Quote from: Kern Dog on January 03, 2020, 12:00:04 AM
Thank you. I hope to have the front end sheet metal on by Sunday night. We'll see.... :cheers:
Ha!
Yeah.....Well, I have had some delays. The last 3 weekends, I have helped an old guy in the car club clear out his stash of early Valiant parts. There is almost no demand for the stuff and he knows it. He just wanted it cleared out.
IT was a good day today though. I got the valance on....
The valance fits nicely on the right side since the fender is in good shape. The left side doesn't fit as well since the fender needs some hammer and dolly work.
I was expecting to run into some fitment problems with the Charger panels on a Plymouth stub. So far,, everything fits like original. The valance bolted to the fenders and the lower radiator support and the hood latch support fit right too.
Finally, the hood !
I do still need to properly align the fenders and hood but for now, it is close enough.
I'm calling the car J I G S A W since it is coming together in pieces from several different cars. I still don't know it I'll leave it ratty and drive it that way or if I will paint it. One idea was to spray it black with a red stripe, the opposite of my XP Charger.
The grille and front bumper are in!
The valance looks about like I expected....It fits but is clearly a patch job. That is fine if I keep the car ratty but if I do decide to paint the car up nice, I'll buy a new AMD valance or get a nice used one.
The grille looks grungy but it is complete and has no breaks. It is actually the nicest part of the car!
And now it's a 15k Charger. :icon_smile_big: Great job :thumbs:
Thanks! It is bonkers what people will pay for these cars. I can imagine bombing around the town in this car looking like this and getting guys offering me $1500 for it!
Quote from: Lennard on January 26, 2020, 10:50:12 AM
And now it's a 15k Charger. :icon_smile_big: Great job :thumbs:
X2 :cheers:
Looking good ! nice work KD :2thumbs: :cheers: :popcrn:
It looks like a complete car again KD,nice work!
Nicely done! What's the plan for wheels when you get to them?
Until I decide what the end goal is, I have some 15" steelies, some 14" Rallyes and have access to some Wheel Vintiques 16" Police car wheels I could use. I may run it like I did the XP before I took it apart to paint.
I have some 11" and 12" front discs. The rear brakes will likely be 10" or 11" drums for now.
Wow, all of a sudden, it's a straight, complete car! Well, minus drivetrain!
Yeah, thanks. I do have the original 383 and a few BB 727s out back. I could have this running in a couple of weeks if I wasn't working so much. It sucks that the services that I need are only open at the exact time that I am working. I'd love to get the heads rebuilt and do a dingle ball hone to this 383 but I need to see my machinist and he is across town. I need to get the radiator boiled out too.
I know that once I get into the build, I'll discover several missing things that I need. I already see it has no gas pedal assembly, no gas cap, it is missing one of the wiper pivots, all the underhood wiring is gone...
This Monday-Friday job interferes with my hobby. :lol:
Quote from: Kern Dog on January 26, 2020, 10:44:43 PM.....I already see it has no gas pedal assembly.....
Hey KD, I have a gas pedal assembly, no pedal just the roller bracket that mounts to the firewall. It's yours if cover the shipping from Ohio to No Cal.
As for your '70, IMO for now just get it road worthy, slap some cool rims/tires on it and drive it around for awhile before tearing it down. Leave it multi colored as it is now.
:cheers:
That might be the plan. It sort of looks like the "Partridge Family" bus but so often, the only time you see these cars out on the road, they are shiny and nice looking. It might be fun to drive around in the "Before" status !
I will PM you, Bryan! Thanks!
Quote from: VegasCharger on January 28, 2020, 03:04:48 AM
Quote from: Kern Dog on January 26, 2020, 10:44:43 PM.....I already see it has no gas pedal assembly.....
Hey KD, I have a gas pedal assembly, no pedal just the roller bracket that mounts to the firewall. It's yours if cover the shipping from Ohio to No Cal.
As for your '70, IMO for now just get it road worthy, slap some cool rims/tires on it and drive it around for awhile before tearing it down. Leave it multi colored as it is now.
:cheers:
IMO get it running, but paint it all one color. (flat black maybe) ? Multi colors never look good. :Twocents:
Been waiting to follow you on a resto. :2thumbs:
Frame rails are welded up. The factory just spot welded them but I welded the edges as well as plug welding where I cut the spot welds. I wish that I had someone around here that was a better welder than I. I'd love to know what exactly I am doing wrong. I had to switch settings and wire feed speeds multiple times to get the right weld quality. I would weld a bit, get the nice even crackle like bacon sizzling THEN it would change. I will end up grinding down the sloppy sections.
This is a common thing for me though. I try things that I am not totally familiar with and when I encounter problems, I don't know if it is the environment, the materials or my own technique that is to blame.
In my red XP Charger, I welded in frame connectors made from 3x3 .120 wall steel. I added metal strips above the top to fill the gap to the floor pans for a cleaner look.
I started installing 2x3 connectors in "Jigsaw". This car has factory undercoating and it was put on T H I C K. I'm not sure if I'll extend the sides of these up to the bottom of floors. THat was a cosmetic move for the red car since they are not actually welded to the floor pans
Kern Dog, I spotted a Rebel Flag. You racist devil. :lol:
Quote from: CDN72SE on January 28, 2020, 12:43:35 PM
Been waiting to follow you on a resto. :2thumbs:
Hey man, thanks!
I'm not ready to call this a restoration yet. A
resurrection for sure but not yet a restoration.
I had the notion that before anything else is done, I should reinforce the foundation. First, the front structure was replaced due to collision damage. Next was the obligatory frame connectors. I wanted to add torque boxes as well since it adds very little weight and stiffens the unibody.
I had some trouble with the weld quality but later I increased the argon/CO2 pressure from 15 to 20. The welds started to lay flatter with less spatter afterwards.
I may end up opening that access hole a bit.
These are tucked up a little closer to the rails compared to the red car.
I started mocking up the front torque box.
This time I decided to install it full length from the torsion bar crossmember to the support bracket and from the rocker to the rail.
The back side is primed. The 3 5/16" Holes are drains. I may want to hog them out a bit though.
That's interesting that turning up the gas gave you better welds. I will have to try that myself as I'm also having issues with achieving consistently nice welds.
Sometimes the welds look great and then all of a sudden something changes and the welds look lumpy as if I've gone in too cold. It all comes good in the end once ground down though.
You're torque boxes are looking good but I wonder if the square holes should have rounded corners so they don't become a weak point?
Edit: Thinking about it the torque box won't flex at all anyway so ignore what I said.
when welding over head turn up heat and argon, gas is heavy and falls quickly,turn up gas for better shield
Thank you. I am always willing to try different techniques on tasks that I don't know very well.
If you try to tell me how to frame a house, I'd tell you that I don't need the advice.....Welding? Yeah, I can certainly stand to learn a lot! :eek2:
Sorry that I have been away. I have posted almost 21 pages worth of updates in a thread at the 1970 Charger Registry site though.
Frame connectors and torque boxes have been done for quite awhile.
Still some fine tuning to do, general cleanup on the welds, etc.
I don't know the level that I want to be at with this car but I will admit that it will never be a "restoration" in terms of original condition or OEM standards. It will likely be a fun and decent performing street car. Solid chassis, good brakes and suspension, a 383 built to approximately the 383 Magnum level, maybe a little more.
This car originally had an 8 3/4" axle when new. The prior owner swapped in an 8 1/4" 2.71 gear axle to keep it movable. I pulled the 8 1/4 using my transmission jack.
I got an 8 3/4" axle in the deal when I bought the car but it had no brakes. I pulled a set of 10" drums from an '86 Chrysler Fifth Avenue.
I cleaned the housing and axle shafts and sprayed the housing Rustoleum satin black. It dries slow but does lay down a nice finish.
I put a '741 3.23 Sure Grip in the axle. I know that it is the least durable of the 3 common carriers but since this car will not be fitted with slicks and a 4 speed or subjected to drag racing every day, it will be fine.
The axle had no brake lines. I got pissed with the shitty quality of the NAPA brake line flaring tools so I ordered a nice $200 unit from Eastwood along with 2 rolls of 3/16" brake line. They are due in tomorrow.
I have a new rear brake hose. The NAPA store couldn't get the Fifth Avenue 2.75 single piston front calipers that I wanted so...back to the junkyard. I may end up ordering new/rebuilt ones from Rock Auto later but I'm anxious to get this car to stop now. The parking brake is connected and working. The cable is adjusted so that midway through the foot pedal travel. the car will stay still.
The front brakes will be 12" aftermarket rotors, 2.75" single piston rear hung calipers. I am using the F-M-J-R body disc knuckles, the ones that everybody seems to like except Rick Ehrenberg and maybe a few others I'm unaware of. They are 3/8" taller than the popular 1973-76 A body knuckles but 2 lbs lighter and a LOT more common.
I know that this may look "Joe Dirt" to some but for me, this is the kind of stuff that I love to do: Building something fun with used parts that are still functional.
Awesome. Not being tied to correctness is pretty liberating.
And on the cheap is a fun game in itself.
Thank you.
I know that these cars bring out some that scoff at junkyard type builds but I'm having fun with it.
Quote from: Kern Dog on April 25, 2020, 01:59:41 AM
Thank you.
I know that these cars bring out some that scoff at junkyard type builds but I'm having fun with it.
Cool repair, keep digging at it. My welder will annoyingly fluctuate voltage sometimes during a weld so it might be your problem also. :shruggy:
I question those who look down their noses at any work that is not a 100K restoration ? After I got in the wreck with my 500 and put the stocker nose on it you wouldn't believe the crap that got thrown at it Carlisle but my feeling is hey I am driving it and your not, next insult .
The brake line flaring tool from Eastwood is easily the BEST that I have ever seen. Those small clamp type flaring tools look like a finger painting hung next to the Mona Lisa. I made the rear lines from drum to the T block and put in the rear hose.
My goal for the lines wasn't to necessarily match the original shape but to fit and clear.
I had considered the use of those camber spacers between the lower ball joint and the steering knuckle but I skipped it for now.
The 12" rotors were from a friend. He had them on his '71 Challenger. I replaced the bearings and put in a new seal.
I tried to buy rebuilt calipers but the NAPA store claimed that they couldn't get the ones I wanted.
I wanted OEM stuff for ease of replacement in the future. The 1976 Aspen/Volare models got a larger piston as compared to the Disc brake A bodies...2.75 vs 2.60. More piston area = more clamping force.
I bought a pair of calipers from a self serve junkyard...$44 with hoses and hardware.
Stuff cleans up nice with the wire wheel.
The left side rotor had a decent inner bearing race so I left it and just used new bearings.
The right side inner race had a couple of defects so I removed it and punched in a new one. I'm a bit confused though. I drove the race in to sit about 1/4" below the ridge of the hub. The factory service manual for my '70 Charger states to drive the "cup" flush.
I've been told that the service manuals often are vague with their descriptions of the procedures. Also, this was a manual for a 1970 model and the rotors are based on a 1973 and later design.
The other rotors that have here all have their races sitting about 1/4" below the edge so I'll just drive the oil seal and see how it all fits.
Quote from: Kern Dog on April 29, 2020, 05:18:55 PM
The left side rotor had a decent inner bearing race so I left it and just used new bearings.
The right side inner race had a couple of defects so I removed it and punched in a new one. I'm a bit confused though. I drove the race in to sit about 1/4" below the ridge of the hub. The factory service manual for my '70 Charger states to drive the "cup" flush.
KD...the inner race should be driven in until fully seated. With the differences in manufacturers, especially among the aftermarket, it wouldn't surprise me to see a difference in margin above the race.
Thank you.
There is a ridge about another 3/8" deeper but to drive the race in that deep seems like it would be too far. I have a spare race though. Maybe I am right up against a step. I could knock this one out to see if I was right up against it all along.
If you weren't up against the ridge in the hub the pressure/ weight of the car would eventually force the race where it belongs. Which would ruin the race, bearing, tire and possibly the hub. Make sure you bottom out on that race otherwise you will pay for that mistake in the end. Hopefully you won't wreck your car or loose your life. It is very important to get that race bottomed out in the hub. That applies to the outer race too
Looking good!! :2thumbs: Just found this thread and wow, good work here!!
Quote from: nchrome on April 30, 2020, 10:08:09 AM
If you weren't up against the ridge in the hub the pressure/ weight of the car would eventually force the race where it belongs. Which would ruin the race, bearing, tire and possibly the hub. Make sure you bottom out on that race otherwise you will pay for that mistake in the end. Hopefully you won't wreck your car or loose your life. It is very important to get that race bottomed out in the hub. That applies to the outer race too
Thank you. I did tap the race in a little more. It felt like it wouldn't go in anymore so I lubed up the bearings, tapped in the grease seal and slid it on.
The rotor sits the same way on the spindle on both sides. The rotor face sits 3/16" out from the caliper bracket.
I mounted up a 15/16" aluminum master cylinder from Dr Diff.
The car came with no firewall stiffener plate so I dug around out back and found one that would fit. I made a gasket to fit between the firewall and plate.
Brake lines are all in place and snug. Master cylinder has been bench bled....all that remains is to bleed the rest of the system.
This junker has brakes!
Here is a tip: When encountering a problem, be willing to listen to advice from others, even the Wife.
I had the Master Cylinder full. The Wife was in the car on the pedal. She was pressing the pedal over and over and I could not get any fluid out of the rear bleeder screws. I loosened the brake hose connection and it had fluid. I backed off the brake line fitting at the backing plates and had fluid. The bleeders were clean. She had been pumping 10 times and holding while I cracked the bleeders and nothing would come out. This went on for 6-8 minutes.
She said....Why don't you try the front?
Yeah, sure...It can't hurt, right?
The fronts spurted out some dirty brake fluid and a lot of air. I made three passes with each caliper. Fluid got cleaner and the air was clearing out. Also, The pedal was now getting some feel to it. I went to the back and sure enough, it started to spurt out of the rear bleeders. Three times at each rear wheel then back to the front. now at a panic stop pedal slam, the pedal stops halfway to the floor. That is good enough for me!
The Wife....what a great lady!
WOW LOOK WHAT YOU DID! I'm real impressed, posting pictures and everything.....or is this fake news? :scratchchin:
This thread is about a car build on the cheap, nothing political about it. Not fake, all the mistakes and successes are here for all to see. :2thumbs:
I have to remind people sometimes that I am mostly a clown...I love to joke, tease and entertain....sometimes I like to annoy people. Some threads have become waaaaaay too serious.
I doubt that anyone's mind will change in the hotly debated threads so why not take a step back and laugh a bit?
I hope that even the most ardent leftist can believe that the media has become a joke. They often make news instead on impartially reporting it.
This topic though is only about a car that was wrecked almost 25 years ago and left for dead.
Well there IS a machined edge inside the hub of the rotor that the race must be driven up against tightly. The seal can be installed correctly with a hunk of 2X4 laid flat overlapping the rotor's inside hub edge. Like I said, you done good.
Thank you. I tapped the race in as far as it felt like it wanted to go and bolted it all together. IT seems fine. I could pull a rotor from my red car to see how deep the race sits.
With functional brakes now, I backed out of the car lift bay and took some pictures.
The front sits a little too low.
These are the first side by side pictures on my cars. I've had this roach since September!
I cranked up the torsion bars a bit once I had the car back inside.
Oh yeah, the brakes seem fine!
Kicking ass on this one! :2thumbs:
I'd lower the front back down, it looked tougher lower. Gave it that old nascar look.
Quote from: WHITE AND RED 69 on May 03, 2020, 03:37:38 PM
Kicking ass on this one! :2thumbs:
I'd lower the front back down, it looked tougher lower. Gave it that old nascar look.
It probably will lower when he adds an engine.
I started working on the engine side wire harness. The car came with nothing on the engine side. No brake booster or stiffening plate, no brake line, no wiring, even the A/C stuff was torn out.
I have boxes of harnesses from several A-body cars. Luckily, the bulkhead plugs are the same. The down side? The A body cars used single headlight per side harnesses with different terminal ends. This is a 3 speed wiper car. I don't know if I'll keep it that way or swap the switch and other stuff into my red car.
I have a guy sending me some wiring so I'll get back to that a bit later.
Today I started messing around with the original 383 for this car. Numbers do match!
It had A/C but the compressor was removed. This odd looking idler pulley was used to allow the retention of the original pulleys.
I pulled the heads to check the deck clearance. This is a number that is critical in determining the compression ratio. My plan is to disassemble the engine, hone the cylinders and reassemble with new rings, bearings, gaskets, oil pump, Cam and lifters, timing set and other bits.
The piston sits .076 below deck. That is a LOT but I have heard of far worse....
I checked with a few online compression ratio calculators and was disappointed to see that even with the stock .020 head gaskets, the math shows that this is at 8.12 to 1 despite the factory rating of 8.7 to 1.
Using the thicker but common .039 Fel Pro gaskets drops the CR to 7.85 to 1. That is terrible. I've heard of guys that complain that their rebuilt 383 feels slow and this may explain why: Even replacement pistons sit too low and don't build enough compression. I wonder if the 383 Magnum used true zero deck flat top pistons. Zero deck computes out to 9.48 to 1 with uncut heads.
Messing around with the compression ratio calculator, I may have found a way to make this 383 work.
Milling the heads .050 and decking the block .010 along with using .020 steel head gaskets gets the ratio back up to 9.02 to 1. That isn't too bad.
The 383 Magnum was rated half a point higher in 1970 and was listed at 335 HP. I'm going to use headers and a slightly hotter cam. Factoring in for the gross vs net HP numbers, I am hoping to exceed the factory numbers a bit. The 383 Road Runners and Super Bees were 14 second cars with 3.55 gears. That isn't too bad.
Don't forget all that cutting lowers the rocker shafts changing valve train geometry. I may have new shaft shim sets left over (Bought for just in case.) if your not using cut to fit push rods.
I have (2) 383's Both rebuilt and they scream Horse Power. :cheers:
Quote from: b5blue on May 10, 2020, 08:31:21 AM
Don't forget all that cutting lowers the rocker shafts changing valve train geometry. I may have new shaft shim sets left over (Bought for just in case.) if your not using cut to fit push rods.
Thank you. I'm still undecided on which engine that I will use. :2thumbs:
Quote from: Kern Dog on May 02, 2020, 12:34:39 AM
This thread is about a car build on the cheap, nothing political about it. Not fake, all the mistakes and successes are here for all to see. :2thumbs:
I have to remind people sometimes that I am mostly a clown...I love to joke, tease and entertain....sometimes I like to annoy people. Some threads have become waaaaaay too serious.
I doubt that anyone's mind will change in the hotly debated threads so why not take a step back and laugh a bit?
I hope that even the most ardent leftist can believe that the media has become a joke. They often make news instead on impartially reporting it.
This topic though is only about a car that was wrecked almost 25 years ago and left for dead.
No, you are quite wrong. The media is not a joke and most of their reporting is based on live events that can't be denied, though some who wish to erase or ignore facts call them fake in hopes that by repeating their lies, the truth will be obscured.
I am enjoying this thread. Unfortunately its now gong to be locked instead of addressing the source of the problem?
Kern... could I appeal to you to not respond to these guys and continue?
Quote from: RallyeMike on May 26, 2020, 11:38:14 AM
I am enjoying this thread. Unfortunately its now gong to be locked instead of addressing the source of the problem?
Kern... could I appeal to you to not respond to these guys and continue?
What he said. I like this thread. And half of the new guys 12 posts are political, including the vert first ones. Don't let him ruin this build thread.
Start a new thread to respond if you have to.
If only Greg could right now... :yesnod:
Quote from: darbgnik on May 26, 2020, 02:18:49 PM
Quote from: RallyeMike on May 26, 2020, 11:38:14 AM
I am enjoying this thread. Unfortunately its now gong to be locked instead of addressing the source of the problem?
Kern... could I appeal to you to not respond to these guys and continue?
What he said. I like this thread. And half of the new guys 12 posts are political, including the vert first ones. Don't let him ruin this build thread.
Start a new thread to respond if you have to.
It was his choice to slip that nonsense into a thread
Like most others, I would rather grimace, dismiss the nonsense, and move on, but somebody has to call out the lie.
If he was indeed, attempting to be humorous, he needs to buy a joke book.
Quote from: birdsandbees on May 26, 2020, 02:42:01 PM
If only Greg could right now... :yesnod:
Greg sounds scary.
Does he also go by the name: Swede?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrVYS7S5N5Y
Quote from: greycharger on May 26, 2020, 10:55:31 AM
Quote from: Kern Dog on May 02, 2020, 12:34:39 AM
This thread is about a car build on the cheap, nothing political about it. Not fake, all the mistakes and successes are here for all to see. :2thumbs:
I have to remind people sometimes that I am mostly a clown...I love to joke, tease and entertain....sometimes I like to annoy people. Some threads have become waaaaaay too serious.
I doubt that anyone's mind will change in the hotly debated threads so why not take a step back and laugh a bit?
I hope that even the most ardent leftist can believe that the media has become a joke. They often make news instead on impartially reporting it.
This topic though is only about a car that was wrecked almost 25 years ago and left for dead.
No, you are quite wrong. The media is not a joke and most of their reporting is based on live events that can't be denied, though some who wish to erase or ignore facts call them fake in hopes that by repeating their lies, the truth will be obscured.
UMMM. Here is what 5K buys you...... Who is this assssclown going off on our buddy??
[/b] Greyhound ??? WTFIT ?
Quote from: greycharger on May 26, 2020, 10:55:31 AM
Quote from: Kern Dog on May 02, 2020, 12:34:39 AM
This thread is about a car build on the cheap, nothing political about it. Not fake, all the mistakes and successes are here for all to see. :2thumbs:
I have to remind people sometimes that I am mostly a clown...I love to joke, tease and entertain....sometimes I like to annoy people. Some threads have become waaaaaay too serious.
I doubt that anyone's mind will change in the hotly debated threads so why not take a step back and laugh a bit?
I hope that even the most ardent leftist can believe that the media has become a joke. They often make news instead on impartially reporting it.
This topic though is only about a car that was wrecked almost 25 years ago and left for dead.
No, you are quite wrong. The media is not a joke and most of their reporting is based on live events that can't be denied, though some who wish to erase or ignore facts call them fake in hopes that by repeating their lies, the truth will be obscured.
Any comments on the video in post #32 (& up) here...
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,137897.25.html
Quote from: b5blue on May 01, 2020, 10:01:12 PM
WOW LOOK WHAT YOU DID! I'm real impressed, posting pictures and everything.....or is this fake news? :scratchchin:
Unfortunately, Kern Dog has been banned from this site, but his build still continues and can be easily viewed here......
https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/lookie-what-5000-buys-you.178346/
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on May 29, 2020, 03:35:11 AM
Quote from: b5blue on May 01, 2020, 10:01:12 PM
WOW LOOK WHAT YOU DID! I'm real impressed, posting pictures and everything.....or is this fake news? :scratchchin:
Unfortunately, Kern Dog has been banned from this site, but his build still continues and can be easily viewed here......
https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/lookie-what-5000-buys-you.178346/
Shows Gregory was on today. :shruggy:
whaaat ???
Quote from: Mopar Nut on May 29, 2020, 03:55:04 AM
Shows Gregory was on today. :shruggy:
I have checked in every couple of days but I kept hitting a brick wall, getting an error message that told me that I was banned.
I am back and will have plenty to report later tonight.
Forgive me if I report on stuff that I already mentioned. I forgot at what point that I was before being banned.
Quote from: Kern Dog on May 29, 2020, 05:17:10 PM
Quote from: Mopar Nut on May 29, 2020, 03:55:04 AM
Shows Gregory was on today. :shruggy:
I have checked in every couple of days but I kept hitting a brick wall, getting an error message that told me that I was banned.
I am back and will have plenty to report later tonightt.
Good, glad to see you back.
Thank you so much. I have plenty to report.
Back on track....
The Jigsaw project continues. I tore down the 383 and the .030 440 and took them to the machine shop.
The original engine (383 2 barrel) is standard bore, stock pistons, rod and main bearings dated July 1969. The 440 is a 1976 mill from a Police car. It broke a rod at 3700 rpms on the freeway in 2004. At the time, I was moving within a month so I just bought another 440 block for my red car and went with a 4.15 stroke setup.
My thoughts as I went to the machine shop were still up in the air. The 383 appealed to me since it is the original engine. I planned to see if the man could hone the cylinders and see if I could just put new rings and bearings in it. The 440 was my first pick though. I figured to put in a new piston and rod, recondition all the rods and crank, hone the cylinders and have only a few hundred in it including machine work.
There is a chunk of iron missing at the bottom of the #4 cylinder where the rod snapped. It worried me a bit so This is why I bought a different block in 2004. After looking at it a few times over the years, it seemed to me that it might be okay if the water passages were intact. I had planned to let the machine shop guy do a Magnaflux test on it.
As he was bent down looking, he saw this:
Yep...a crack in the cylinder wall. This engine has sat for almost 16 years and I have never noticed the crack. The hole was open...the piston and rod have been out of it since the day it went boom. I should have seen it.
So, the 440 could be sleeved for about the cost of a core 440!
So ...I have another 440 that I could use. I pulled it from a '71 Chrysler 300 that a guy gave me in 2008. It ran great. I looked up the factory specs for the engines.
This is for 1970 engines.
After seeing this, I call B U L L S H I T.
I checked the deck clearance with the 383. The piston sat .076 in the hole at TDC. Crunching the numbers with the .020 stock head gasket and 88 cc heads, the Compression ratio is NOT 8.7 but actually 8.12 to 1. If I were to screw it back together with the common .039 Fel Pro head gasket, the CR drops to 7.85 to 1. Terrible.
Before taking the engines to the machine shop, I decided to try porting heads. I have a few sets here so I went through them and found the cleanest set. They are # 346. They have been rebuilt not long before I got them. New hardened exhaust seats and they have been milled. The combustion chamber looked noticeably smaller than the other heads I have.
The chamber is .077 deep on the '346 heads.
Check out the others.
One set of '452s measured .101 deep! Some say that the '906, '346, '452 heads all spec out around 88-90 ccs when new. There are online published specs showing what effect that milling has on compression. I've done so much math lately, my head is fuzzy.
I thought of reusing the stock pistons but milling the heads a LOT, I've thought of using the .020 stock head gaskets, Aftermarket pistons to get the piston up higher in the cylinder...
Back to porting though.
Check out the exhaust ports compared to stock gaskets then to TTI header gaskets.
I gasket matched using the smaller gasket.
While at the Summit store in Sparks, NV last week, I looked at a display head from Trick Flow. It was the 240 model. The exhaust port didn't look much bigger than stock so I don't know if the gasket match was worth much.
I did blend from the gasket into the port and cut down all casting flash, various small bumps and also smoothed out around the valve guide bosses.
Keep in mind, this is my FIRST time at this!
The intake ports were not much smaller than the stock valley pan tin but I did a little cleanup and blend into the ports.
There were some areas at the edges of the ports that looked like core shift or erosion. Nothing I could do except to maybe epoxy and sand smooth?
Nah....
I nicked a couple of valve seats while porting but I planned to have a valve job done anyway. These had a one angle valve job. I'm getting a traditional 3 angle done.
Today I ordered a set of Speed Pre .030 pistons, PN 2315. They are spec'd to sit .025 in the hole compared to .076 like the stock pistons. That alone is worth a point.
I got a Comp Cam similar to the Mopar Performance 280/474. I had that cam in a stock piston 440 in 2002. It was a good performer.
Now since the engine is in the hands of the machinist, I needed to focus on other stuff so when the engine is ready to go in, the car is ready for it. This means I have to figure out the underhood wiring. The car came with NONE and the '70 Charger uses an electric headlight door motor and some have hood blinkers.
I also need a gas tank. Since the floor is rusted to death, I needed to replace the trunk floor, gas tank with straps and filler neck. The Wife and I went to Sparks and brought back THIS!
To fit the replacement pan through the trunk opening, I am going to cut the sides so that they sit on the inside edges of the frame rails. This makes sense because the rust is mostly inside of that area.
I started by taking measurements of the locations of the spare tire brackets.
The new pan has one difference that I noticed immediately. Look at the narrow spacing of the body plugs over the rear axle hump, then look at how wide they are on the AMD panel.
I don't really care about the difference as long as the panel fits in well. I do wonder though if the 68 and 69 models had a wider spacing and if AMD just used the same panel for all 3 years.
More.
The plan is to join the new pan to the stock seam over the axle hump and spot weld like stock there. The sides will rest on the inside edges of the frame rails. The rear will sit on the shelf that sits above the rear bumper support bar. With proper welds, grinding and seam sealer, I hope to have it look undisturbed.
Couple quick questions. On the gasket matching, what did you use to do that job, tools wise?
On the trunk piece, so the one you bought you are cutting down to only fit what you need to replace? My car has smaller area than yours.
Love the thread btw.
Luke
Wow, you did have much to report.
Great updates, thanks.
Quote from: lukedukem on May 30, 2020, 03:48:37 AM
Couple quick questions. On the gasket matching, what did you use to do that job, tools wise?
On the trunk piece, so the one you bought you are cutting down to only fit what you need to replace? My car has smaller area than yours.
Love the thread btw.
Luke
Hey Luke,
The porting was done with an air powered die grinder with a 1/4" round collet. I'll try to get a few pictures today. For years, people have said that iron heads can match the flow of the Edelbrock and 440 source aluminum heads but the cost of porting to get them there makes it more cost effective to just buy the aluminum ones. I figured that since this 383 just needs to be up and running, why not try porting them myself? I don't know how much I may have improved the flow or power but I doubt that the work made things any worse.
The YouTube channel
Uncle Tony's Garage had a video on head porting. He said to clean up port irregularities and casting flash. I read and have seen videos on smoothing out the sharp edges so I just did that too. Ear muffs, eye protection and keeping your mouth closed when porting are great suggestions!
On the trunk floor. the AMD panel is stamped to fit over the frame rails and to the area where it meets the side "drop offs" or extensions. Since the rust in this car is limited to the area between the frame rails and also because a full width pan won't fit through the trunk opening, I'm just cutting the new panel to patch in over the worst area.
Quote from: lukedukem on May 30, 2020, 03:48:37 AM
Couple quick questions. On the gasket matching, what did you use to do that job, tools wise?
On the trunk piece, so the one you bought you are cutting down to only fit what you need to replace? My car has smaller area than yours.
Love the thread btw.
Luke
Hey Luke....
For porting, I used this simple 1/4" die grinder that was given to me. I made the first pass through everything with the carbide bits, then smoothed over everything with the stone bits.
The local NAPA store sells a die grinder like mine.
Good day. I got a lot done.
I had to go out to get a spotweld cutter. Once I was back home, I drilled out the remaining welds and chiseled out the rest.
The original plan was to just cut the AMD pan to fit to the middle of the inner flange of the frame rails. The right side had some deep pitted metal a bit further in, even past the outer flange of the frame rail. I went ahead and cut the rust out.
Before any trial fitting of the AMD trunk pan, I took measurements in several places as to where the original metal ended. I wrote these numbers on the floor of the trunk for reference.
I took the trunk pan and measured to the center and drew a line with white soapstone. From there, I measured over to my number and added just over an inch on both sides. This allowed me to slip the pan through the trunk opening and cut it to size in place.
I have never done this with new metal before. I just used some Carpenter type common sense and was fortunate that my numbers were right and nothing was cut too short.
The trunk latch bracket was left in place but I did knock the welds loose in the middle so I could pull it up enough to let the new pan slide under it. After all the fitment was done and the edges cut to size, I pulled the pan out to drill holes in the center to plug weld through to the center brace. I used an air powered punch to make holes around the perimeter.
I measured and then welded on the gas tank strap brackets.
Back in place and held down with a few self tapping screws, welding has begun !
I'm knocking down the welds with a 36 grit flapper disc on a DeWalt 4 1/2 " angle grinder. The welder is a Lincoln MIG with argon/CO2.
Welding is about 3/4 done. The front gets a thick smear of seam sealer. Same with the rear. The sides will get primed and eventually painted.
Was it fun getting your head with the welding helmet on up and under the back window area to weld in the front edge ?
I did not think I could bend my body that far any more and just joined my trunk floor at the straight line that goes across the floor on the up angle near the front
I like your claw hammer for metal work :icon_smile_tongue:
Ha...Yeah, there is some contortion to getting up and in there to weld in the tight spaces. My 5'6: 140 lb Brother in law would have been a better fit.
The hammer? Yeah..It is an old one used for stripping concrete forms. I'm a Carpenter, certainly not a welder. I had it there to smack the chisel to peel the old metal up. Sometimes I buy new stuff, sometimes I just use what I have laying around.
Quote from: Kern Dog on May 31, 2020, 12:21:21 AM
I measured and then welded on the gas tank strap brackets.
Ahh, forgot those go on the trunk pan!
This thing is really coming together.
Thanks!
Those got spot welded originally but I plug welded mine along with a bead on the upper corners.
This is the tool that I used to make the holes at the front and the rear. It also can be used to make a recess flange if you wanted to do a lap weld instead of a butt weld.
Flange:
I took the drain plugs out of the bottoms of the lower quarters and blew some compressed air to get all the trapped dust and grit out. I rinsed the floor and blew it dry. Tomorrow I intend to spread the seam sealer and spray etching primer on the bare metal areas.
Amazing to only have to replace that center section of the trunk.
Mine did not look like that!
It was worse than my other car but obviously far better than an East coast or Northern car. The trunk extensions/dropoffs are fine, just a little surface rust.
There is a small rust hole in the right lower quarter but the rest of the car is solid.
Still waiting on both the gas tank and the Machinist with my 383. In the meantime, I'm having some trouble deciding on what I want to do.
I am trying to piece together a wire harness for the engine side. I have the original headlight harness from the red car. It worked but I replaced it because I had modified it a bit and didn't like how it turned out. I have since repaired it and am sure it will work. I could buy a new one. Evans Wiring has the center plug section for $110. This may be a way to go, I'm just not sure yet.
The bulkhead has three connectors with 8 terminals each. The top one is mostly windshield wiper and neutral safety wires. The car has a 3 speed switch in the dash but I am thinking of swapping that to the red car. The middle plug has the oil pressure, water temp, voltage regulator and power in-power out. That segment that I have is from a 73-75 A-body with electronic ignition. It would probably work but I don't know for sure. Starting a new or rebuilt engine is crucial. It has to start and run right away. I can't go cranking and cranking on it or the cam will get wiped out.
I could mock up a distributor with all the wiring harness in place to see if it gets spark with the ignition on.
I may use the red car as a test dummy to see what gets power when. I'm not as clear in my thinking with wiring paths and functions as I wish I were.
Quote from: Kern Dog on June 01, 2020, 10:14:34 PM
This is the tool that I used to make the holes at the front and the rear. It also can be used to make a recess flange if you wanted to do a lap weld instead of a butt weld.
I use my panel flanger /hole punch all the time. but some people don't like the tool & refuse to use it. I like it. all just a matter of opinion. LEON.
Some areas I prefer lap joints. The flanger helps with those.
SOLD MY 70 TO 69 General Lee FOR $16,500. 3 years ago. dude was glad to get it.
Today I dropped off a 26" radiator to get boiled out and inspected. I also took 2 11" torque converters in for inspection. I have a few BB 727s to use. I don't know if they work. I soldered a couple wires on a 3 speed wiper motor that I had. I don't know if it works or not but the car has a 3 speed switch in the dash. I am probably going to keep the 3 speed stuff to use in my red car and let this one have the 2 speed setup.
I am thinking that even though my red car has a trunk mounted battery, I will get this one running with a stock type arrangement. I will still probably bypass the ammeter though.
The rear window channel had rust but it was cut out and patched with new metal. I sprayed metal etch primer awhile ago but recently smoothed it all over with thin coats of Rage Gold filler. I used the trim as a template since some of the welding resulted in some uneven areas. I wish that I was a master at welding where I could simply prime and paint over my metalwork. It would be nice to improve my skills there.
More.
Nice work, KD!!!
I have a few small rust holes in middle of the trunk, and planed on sectioning in part of the trunk, similar to what you have done!
Quote from: Kern Dog on June 05, 2020, 10:30:00 PM
I took the drain plugs out of the bottoms of the lower quarters and blew some compressed air to get all the trapped dust and grit out. I rinsed the floor and blew it dry. Tomorrow I intend to spread the seam sealer and spray etching primer on the bare metal areas.
looks good KD :2thumbs: :popcrn:
Thank you, Gentlemen!
Really enjoying this thread!!! Thanks for taking the time to share. :cheers:
You are welcome. I am glad to do it.
Pictures really help too, right? I know that when I see a car build topic posted, the pictures help me understand what is going on.
Exactly!! Pictures are a great learning tool. The more, the better!!! Plus as people see how you are moving through each part of the project, they realize that they can accomplish this also. So it is a great motivational tool. :2thumbs:
I know that sometimes it looks like I am jumping around and not sticking to one task.
That is because I am. I don't have the engine back yet so I am playing with other things.
Strange thing that I noticed a couple of days ago.....
I don't know if this is stock, but this car came with a hood from another car. Maybe it was an XH model as well. Instead of hood turn signals, it had small steel block off plates. Well, actually just one plate. The right side has nothing. I am currently looking for a pair of proper lenses and the wiring.
Quote from: Kern Dog on June 23, 2020, 11:07:07 PM.....I am currently looking for a pair of proper lenses and the wiring.....
Do you need the other lens housing?
I have housing. I need the lenses and the wiring.
Among the other things that I have planned for the car, I am contemplating a change to the firewall. To me, the stock A/C firewall looks really busy. MY red car is also factory A/C and I changed it to a Classic Auto Air system. They include these black painted block off plates to cover the various holes. I'm not real fond of how that came out but I wasn't ready to pull the engine and interior to change the firewall.
With this car at such a stripped down condition, I can make changes now and not disrupt anything. If I ever decided to add A/C to this car, I'd go with another CAA kit. For the meantime, I am thinking of using a stock heater/defroster.
The tentative plan is to cut out the right side of the stock firewall while leaving a 3/4" section below the cowl pinch weld, along the fender apron support and the lower edge where the firewall meets the floor pan. I'll probably butt weld down the center.
I've heard some suggestions that it would be easier to just make patches for all the holes and fill them in. My problem with that is there are a lot of odd shapes and sizes and if/when I do the Classic Auto Air system, I don't want to risk cutting through a welded edge if the HVAC unit requires it since welds are often harder to cleanly drill or cut through.
Quote from: Kern Dog on June 24, 2020, 08:59:15 PM
Among the other things that I have planned for the car, I am contemplating a change to the firewall. To me, the stock A/C firewall looks really busy. MY red car is also factory A/C and I changed it to a Classic Auto Air system. They include these black painted block off plates to cover the various holes. I'm not real fond of how that came out but I wasn't ready to pull the engine and interior to change the firewall.
With this car at such a stripped down condition, I can make changes now and not disrupt anything. If I ever decided to add A/C to this car, I'd go with another CAA kit. For the meantime, I am thinking of using a stock heater/defroster.
The tentative plan is to cut out the right side of the stock firewall while leaving a 3/4" section below the cowl pinch weld, along the fender apron support and the lower edge where the firewall meets the floor pan. I'll probably butt weld down the center.
I've heard some suggestions that it would be easier to just make patches for all the holes and fill them in. My problem with that is there are a lot of odd shapes and sizes and if/when I do the Classic Auto Air system, I don't want to risk cutting through a welded edge if the HVAC unit requires it since welds are often harder to cleanly drill or cut through.
sounds like the best plan ! think you got the right idea ! weld part of the none AC firewall in now , while its only a few more hours stripping out behind the dash etc. will make a better job ! kind of wish i would of changed to a none AC firewall when i had mine stripped to empty body shell ,
we just been talking about this very subject here blocking AC holes in fire wall in the link below
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,138062.0.html
Here is how I did mine if your interested.
page 26 post #644
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104414.625.html
Thank you, Don. That is nice work.
I have tried to post pictures of some progress but as is often the case, posting pictures here sucks ass.
The firewall patch is in. The pictures are too big to load though.
I did finally get the gas tank after waiting almost 6 weeks.
K member:
Funny story.....In 2010 A guy gave me a 1970 Belvedere stub and K member. I welded it, reinforced the steering box mounts and added a small skid plate. I put that in my red Charger. The original K member from the red Charger was cleaned, welded and reinforced the same way and kept as a spare. Now that K is in "Jigsaw"....So each car has the other's K member.
Check out the reinforcements I added. The steering box mount may be fine for stock cars with skinny tires. For better handling, the mounts need to be braced and reinforced to reduce flex.
The sleeve in the K for the lower control arm can rattle loose and oval out the hole they are welded in so I added thin washers to beef up the area.
Front side of the steering box and the strut rod mounts were reinforced too.
now your pics are to small. :scratchchin:
Ha ha... All my pictures are from my phone but posted using the computer.
I sometimes load pictures directly to the computer, other times I email them to myself. AOL has recently started shrinking the pictures! I'm not very computer savvy but it started maybe 4 months or so ago. The pictures loaded directly come across as 1.0 MB or larger and are larger than this site allows. I started loading them directly to get the picture size bigger because I also post at FBBO, FABO and the 1970Charger Registry. This site I guess I'm stuck with posting the smaller sized pictures unless I can figure out how to resize using Paint or some other program.
I too share your frustration with this site's picture posting process. I would have started my own thread on my 70 project Charger's rebuild process, but I dont know what's more work; restoring the car, or resizing and renaming every pic to fit this site's demands.
Surely someone familiar with forum coding can figure out a way to auto-size and auto-rename pics when users post images to the site.
End of rant,... nice progress you're making there K.D.
The A/C firewall section was cut out.
I cut the non A/C firewall section from the Belvedere stub that I used for the frame rails and aprons.
The patch was welded in and sits underneath the cowl pinch weld, over the fender apron and down to where the firewall meets the front edge of the floor pan.
Fully welded, primed and skimmed with some Rage Gold body filler and it looks like it could be original!
Front suspension and steering are in so I pushed the car into the car lift room and was ready to put in fuel and vent lines....THEN I figured that I'd at least remove the undercoating where the fuel lines will be.
Uhhh, yeah....This is where the Snowball Effect begins. I kept going and going.
Quote from: Kern Dog on July 15, 2020, 09:54:05 PM
Fully welded, primed and skimmed with some Rage Gold body filler and it looks like it could be original!
Looks great. And much better than the cover plates the AC kits come with.
Quote from: Kern Dog on July 15, 2020, 09:54:05 PM
Fully welded, primed and skimmed with some Rage Gold body filler and it looks like it could be original!
looks good :yesnod: :2thumbs:
:cheers:
Nice job! Big fan of the Rage Gold filler, stuff goes on so smoothly and sands very well.
Undercoating removal continues...
Wheelwells have been scraped and are ready for modifications.
That sharp ridge in the last picture....
Every 68-70 Charger owner that has wide tires should be familiar with it. For some strange reason, the factory used an outer wheel tub that did not follow up alongside the quarter panel. Instead, it had that strange ridge in it.
Here is what it looks from the outside with a quarter panel off.
I heard a member here describe this procedure "DE-Humping". That sounds silly to me but it does make sense.
My goal here was to cut into the tub along the ridge. Then I'd push each side out toward the quarter panel, essentially inverting the ridge into a concave shape.
In the red car, the contact was always from the top of the wheel tub and to the rear. This area is greatly improved now. See the difference in the two sides.
If you are not going to keep that ac section you cut out I maybe interested in it. It would be a nice templet.
I'd let it go for the cost of shipping.
Message me a price.
My welding skills are inconsistent. I did fine with the frame rails and fender aprons and with the trunk floor. Sometimes I have trouble with the thin body sheet metal. I try to get the welds flat but I burn though too easy. I have a Lincoln MIG with 75/25 Argon. I'm sure it is just a matter of getting the amperage and wire speed right.
Anyway....
I welded it up today. I still need to dress the welds a little more. After I do the left side, Ill spray both sides with etching primer before shooting on the new undercoating.
This was a fairly easy modification that will ensure that I don't get tire rub if I decide to use big wheels and tires like I have on my red '70.
Welding things on your back are theeee most crappy welds I have done.
Ha ha...I agree. I was standing while doing these! :smilielol:
All welded up, smoothed out, primed and seam sealer applied.
On the left side, I decided to deviate a bit. Since this is a learning experience, I decided to try something different. I did cut along the ridge as before along with making perpendicular cuts. Yeah, it still looked like a zipper but instead of welding up every slit, I made 2 metal strips for patches. This allowed me to reduce the amount of welds. One big rectangular perimeter weld and a few other sections.
Pictures tell the story.
Almost 2 1/2 months have passed and I still am waiting on the engine. The machinist is "retired" but still works occasionally. Yeah...What? ONE day a week ?
A friend is buying a 65 Valiant convertible of mine so the other day, I took the 8 1/4" axle that I pulled from this car and relocated the spring pads IN 1/2" per side to fit the Valiant. That car is getting 73/later front discs so thebolt pattern on the rear axle has to match. He wants the car to be a cruiser so the 2.71 gears ought to be just right!
Last week I started working on a rear sway bar install. I could just open the wallet and order something new but my nature is to use what I have nearby.
I had a 13/16" bar from an '82-92 Camaro Z28. The levers had banana bends that needed to be bent straight for the bar to fit. I considered going to a spring shop but abandoned that plan. Looking in the parts stash I found a 3/4" bar that my Brother in Law bought at a swap meet 8 years ago. No brackets or hardware but it did have the D bushings.
I started mocking it up using some leftover hardware I had from other projects. It mounts to the axle using 3/8" U bolts and thin plates....somewhat cheesy. I'm going to make brackets to weld to the housing, a better and more secure way to mount the bar.
For the end links, I started messing around with some scrap steel to see what might work.
That last pic was just a mock up! I had no intention of using a bracket so weak looking. Check out the flimsy Addco bracket:
Mock up #2:
This design turned out to be too small.
Mock up # 3 was a better fit. I used 3x3 .120 box steel that I had in the scrap pile.
These will be welded on 3 sides and be plenty strong.
I wonder how your 3 x 3 would have looked if you turned it over with the opening down instead of up ?
Might be easier to put the nut on the link and would also not make a space for road junk and grit to accumulate ?
:Twocents:
I am seeing what 70 Sublime is saying about the crud trap, but I am feeling that the bracket is much stronger the way it is. Please correct me if I am wrong. But then I don't know if the added strength is needed for the sway bar mounts? :shruggy: Just enjoying the project.
Quote from: 70 sublime on August 17, 2020, 04:51:30 AM
I wonder how your 3 x 3 would have looked if you turned it over with the opening down instead of up ?
Might be easier to put the nut on the link and would also not make a space for road junk and grit to accumulate ?
:Twocents:
Good point. I think it needs a U shape for strength so it either needs to be inverted or to have some way to drain.
I don't drive the red car in rain or mud so no crud gathers on that car. This one may be driven differently though. Thank you.
Accessibility to the bolt head on top isn't bad as is though.
Fellow member Derwud gave me an idea...
For the mounts on the axle, I was going to buy some more 3x3 metal stock and cut some brackets from it. He suggested using 3" muffler clamps.
I took his idea and changed it a little.
I cut the brackets down the middle....
I welded that gold metal section between them...
Test fit.
These will get welded to the housing to prevent movement.
Look at how much better theses look compared to the way that ADDCO shows to mount the bar:
All welded up and spritzed with some flat black to cover the bare metal.
That looks legit, KD!
Nice job making stuff work from the parts bin, I bet those are stronger than the mounts on my mystery aftermarket rear bar!
Thanks. I had an ADDCO bar on the rear of my red car. The brackets were flimsy. I'd tighten them to the point of distortion and they'd still move around.
Sorry for the delay. Updates have been few. I'm still waiting on the 383.
The Machinist at the shop that I have used for 18 years retired a year ago but isn't completely retired. I thought I was being accommodating when I told him that I was in no hurry but jeez, he really took advantage of that. I dropped it off May 22nd. It needed to be bored .030, square decked, the crank only needed to be polished. The heads were already rebuilt but I wanted him to inspect them and do a 3 angle valve job. He messaged me on Monday....He said he should have it done tomorrow.
I wanted to have the car up and running by the 1 year mark of buying the car but that came and went on September 5th.
I busied myself with another project. I sold a 65 Valiant Convertible and as part of the deal, I converted the front to 11" disc brakes, changed to an 8 1/4" axle, made new brake lines and put in a transmission. Now that my 383 is almost ready, I need to get back to this car.
When I got the car, the firewall was stripped. There was no wiring, brackets, brake lines, steering column or anything. The bulkhead plug shows signs of the dreaded overheated Ammeter.......
My plan is to eventually change the wiring on the engine side to match what I did with the Red car, Ginger.
This diagram shows the changes. I followed it except I left off the red wire they show in the inside. It made no sense to me to keep it in a loop like this.
I have several wire harnesses from various A body cars that I either parted out or bought from wrecking yards. The A and B body cars used the same fuse panel and bulkhead stuff for a few years.
The bulkhead block has female spade connectors pushed in from the interior side. I seem to recall that they are called Packard 56 connectors? Correct me if I have that wrong. They have a thin tab at the top to keep them in place. To remove them, a small screwdriver can push the tab down and the wire comes out.
I will do the same to the wires that are in the car, then one by one, push them into the replacement block.
I have a headlight harness from Ginger that was modified in 2013 in the vain attempt to add relays to the headlights. The effort failed miserably. The headlight doors would not open, then the headlights wouldn't shut off, then the doors only opened when I shut the car off....Turns out, I didn't account for the factory headlight door relay in the dash.
Regardless, I just had to solder 2 wires back together to make the harness functional. I bought an engine harness from Evans Wiring, Big Block with electronic ignition.
So, the plan for now it to wire the car back to stock specs and sometime later when the engine runs, the turn signals, horn, taillights and everything works, I'll bypass the ammeter as shown in the diagram.
Another thing: Breaking in a fresh engine, they say to keep rpms up in the 2500-3000 range for 20-30 minutes. I've done this without a tach before, just guessing at the engine speed. It has never resulted in a cam failure but why take the chance?
This car has the basic XH gauge package. No tach, not even a clock:
The faces of the gauges look bad too.
I think I'll use the cluster that I had in Ginger. The tach and speedometer worked. The ammeter and fuel gauge did too. The oil pressure gauge is dead and the temp was not reliable enough to trust.
I have 3 gauge sets including the one in this car. Maybe I'll look around to see how to test them. Maybe one of the three will work.
These are the ones I had in the red car, Ginger:
Sorry if it look like I bounce around.
I do. I sometimes get bored easily and look to do something else. The same thing happens here at home. I'll do some landscaping tasks for a few days and then get bored with that and then do car things.
The 383 finally came back from the shop.
The man bored and honed the block, installed cam bearings, set the crank to establish deck height, then square decked the block to get it so the pistons sit to .009 below deck. The crank was polished and the heads got a 3 angle valve job. Everything is all clean, no paint on the block anywhere.
Total price for machine work : $600.
I figured that since the engine block was essentially bare, now would be the best time to check camshaft fitment.
Back in 2014, I changed cams in my other Charger. I had a Mopar 292/509 in there and was going to a Lunati Solid. The Lunati didn't want to spin once I got it in. I asked around, then called my Machinist. He said that in his experience, Mopar big blocks are known for having tight fitting cams and that the factory actually line bored the blocks with the bearings in them to allow them to spin freely. He suggested that I take an old stock cam and cut grooves in the journals and use it as a poor man's line boring tool.
So, with a cam sprocket and a head bolt in the end, I lubed up the journals and stuffed the old cam in there. It was tight. I had to use a rubber mallet to get it in there.
The sprocket didn't spin easily but it did turn. I spun it slowly in both directions until it started to free up a bit.
I've read of guys using a bearing knife to do this but to me, this seems less crude. Check out the shavings that came off.
This 383 came with a #402 oil pan. Low profile with a baffle at the front and rear of the sump. The original was banged up a bit so I am going to use a different one. I have a few other pans with 5 quart sumps but I don't have the matching pickup for any of them.
I traded a pair of A body LCAs for some Holley cast aluminum valve covers. Trades are fun. They are dirty but will clean up nicely.
I cleaned a lot of bolts....that really eats a lot of time.
Nice to see it's still moving forward. Getting the engine back definitely opens up more work fronts.
I'd prefer the "gun sight" to the clock anyway!
I wear a watch, the phone has a clock, the radio will have one too.
A tach will be in that spot anyway.
The crank is in. It was in great shape and only needed a clean and polish to be serviceable. The oil clearance was within spec. It rotated so easy with the fresh standard bearings and REDLINE assembly lube!
I used the stock rear main seal retainer and the cardboard side seals. I used some RTV at the bottom and sides of the retainer.
Pistons #1,3, 5 and 7 are in.
I checked the ring gaps for the top and the second rings. All the tops were between .020 and .022. The second rings were almost the same size. I've read that the second ring should have a larger gap than the top ring so I took out my trusty ring filer and sized every second ring to .025.
Pistons sit .009 below deck. If I were using closed chamber heads, this would give some quench even if I used the common .039 Fel Pro head gasket. I'm using #346 heads though, I CC'd them and found that they are at 86 ccs.
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 05, 2020, 09:11:16 PM
Pistons #1,3, 5 and 7 are in.
I checked the ring gaps for the top and the second rings. All the tops were between .020 and .022. The second rings were almost the same size. I've read that the second ring should have a larger gap than the top ring so I took out my trusty ring filer and sized every second ring to .025.
Pistons sit .009 below deck. If I were using closed chamber heads, this would give some quench even if I used the common .039 Fel Pro head gasket. I'm using #356 heads though, I CC'd them and found that they are at 86 ccs.
356 heads ? I looked but can't find that #
Ha..Yeah, that was a typo.
346 heads is what I meant to type in.
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 06, 2020, 11:25:25 AM
Ha..Yeah, that was a typo.
346 heads is what I meant to type in.
:2thumbs:
The '346 heads have stock valve springs. I'm going to change them to the Edelbrock springs that come on the big block heads.
All the pistons are in now. I do need to find a 2 9/64" plug for the rear of the block/cam journal.
KD,
For testing the gauges, look at the lilwendal's cluster restoration thread. There are some ways to do this. I did it by monkeying with a 5 v telephone charger. http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,37999.msg1291136.html#msg1291136 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,37999.msg1291136.html#msg1291136) but there are better ways. You might be able to use a battery or series of batteries.
I like the tach set up you have. I also put in a tach into the cluster in place of the cross hairs aiming device on the XH dash.
I like this thread a lot. Thanks for posting it.
looks like a 440 cast crank harmonic Dampener ?
Quote from: XH29N0G on October 06, 2020, 06:52:19 PM
KD,
For testing the gauges, look at the lilwendal's cluster restoration thread. There are some ways to do this. I did it by monkeying with a 5 v telephone charger. http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,37999.msg1291136.html#msg1291136 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,37999.msg1291136.html#msg1291136) but there are better ways. You might be able to use a battery or series of batteries.
I like the tach set up you have. I also put in a tach into the cluster in place of the cross hairs aiming device on the XH dash.
I like this thread a lot. Thanks for posting it.
You are welcome!
Yeah, that is a 440 harmonic balancer. The shape is better for getting a grip to rotate the crank. The crank snout is the same as the 383 and since my 383 balancer is freshly painted, it is stowed away until I need to install it.
I changed the valve springs using a hand held spring compressor. Yeah, a few times, the retainer and spring came loose.....causing me to chase after them. I lost one of the keepers and had to pop a valve out of a spare head to get another pair.
The stock springs sat a little taller, had more coils but the wire diameter was .18. The Edelbrock springs are a bit shorter, have a dampner spring, fewer coils but the wire diameter is .20. I could feel the difference in spring stiffness in the spring compressor.
A lot of this car build and the engine is coming together using some "seasoned" parts. Some stuff is leftovers from other builds.
I have partial gasket sets. Partial freeze plug sets. low mile valve springs, timing set, fuel pump, a good used radiator and hoses, vintage Holley valve covers, etc. Of course the block, crank and rods are late 1969 originals.
The cam journal at the back of the block uses an unusual sized block off plug. I didn't have any spares. It measures 2 9/64". I have 3 coming so I'll have spares.
I have an engine harness I got from Evans, set up for factory electronic ignition. I like using factory ignition stuff for simplicity and ease of finding replacement parts. I checked with 2 stores today looking for a 1972-76 400 V8 electronic distributor. No luck....nothing listed and no way to order one. Summit has THIS one:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-440-431
I've heard of Pro Comp. They state that that are Mopar Licensed.
Rick Ehrenberg from Mopar Action magazine says that the Mopar Performance electronic distributors are junk because they are "Scaled down" Mallory built units. The weights are too light, making the timing fluctuate. I have one in my Red car and He is right. Putting the timing light on mine, you have to aim for the spread in terms of setting the timing since it flutters around so much.
Later this month is the So Cal Fall Fling. I'm hoping to find a decent 383 Intake. Ideally I want to find a Performer RPM or a DP4B.
I had this distributor recommended to me as having a 'good' performance curve out of the box: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=27955&cc=1093115&jsn=1025&_nck=HllVxRCey1%2B2aVRDo41oQXhbegy63eH0CjjrC3%2B3S70mXEh5znuSsxHww4aDMwPSCetSOHmH%2
FWxBomk%2BCT2ScAJTs2W4jkc7ahDCXyQUdU%2B%2F7SbmfzAiXPE6IAnJODzg8GUebIooquzbMLvglSTyHIBX%2FzDp58wJ7J5cVGhVb6JWeGzPLe
5EFAABH31asTfbCd3HkyrhRInbTSClwMzqpUwx5rErWu9ZzG9UPulGVM%2F7H7haoOL6V6Wwg9XUtFh%2F9ZY0lPJHNUJBByAj3HxHVzqheiy4TBF8KiNUF9TiZ1lhYSSzpC6jX42cvyokcIiKf2k0cPPP9YTZ5faaazmrUQ%3D%3D (https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=27955&cc=1093115&jsn=1025&_nck=HllVxRCey1%2B2aVRDo41oQXhbegy63eH0CjjrC3%2B3S70mXEh5znuSsxHww4aDMwPSCetSOHmH%2%3Cbr%20/%3EFWxBomk%2BCT2ScAJTs2W4jkc7ahDCXyQUdU%2B%2F7SbmfzAiXPE6IAnJODzg8GUebIooquzbMLvglSTyHIBX%2FzDp58wJ7J5cVGhVb6JWeGzPLe%3Cbr%20/%3E5EFAABH31asTfbCd3HkyrhRInbTSClwMzqpUwx5rErWu9ZzG9UPulGVM%2F7H7haoOL6V6Wwg9XUtFh%2F9ZY0lPJHNUJBByAj3HxHVzqheiy4TBF8KiNUF9TiZ1lhYSSzpC6jX42cvyokcIiKf2k0cPPP9YTZ5faaazmrUQ%3D%3D)
I have not personally used it, it was just recommended to me for mild performance big block applications. Rock Auto has it for $50 plus $35 for a core, might be an option worth checking out.
Thank you. I took a look at it. The stock based distributors appeal to me for the ease of finding replacement parts.
A guy at FBBO sent me this link:
https://www.manciniracing.com/maravaadeldi1.html
This is interesting. Adjustable vacuum advance like a stock unit but also an adjustable mechanical advance too? That is a great feature. It uses a stock type distributor cap.
I tried to install the camshaft last week but found that there were 7 lobes that had unmachined edges on them. Since the lifters ride off center of the lobes, if I didn't see these mistakes, the cam would have chewed up 7 lifters and sent metal shavings throughout the engine.
See the pictures. You will see shreds of the towel that I used to clean off the assembly lube. This is poor workmanship and sloppy quality control. How do I even know that each lobe is the right lift and duration if they can't get this right?
This is a Comp Cam 270/470 Flat tappet hydraulic.
I posted this around the web forums and have learned than many others have had trouble with Comp Cams products. In 2006, I wiped out 2 Comp XE285HL cams back to back. I blamed the drop in zinc in the oil because I followed the assembly and break in procedures as directed.
Now, I am soured on this company. This cam is going back.
bummer.
I bet Mucini does not sell that crap.
Stepping back a bit, I decided to go back to working on the wiring. Remember, when I got the car, there was no wiring on the engine side, just the bulkhead plug with 2 melted terminals. This is a common thing when the ammeter fails or the wiring to it gets too hot. I planned on replacing the ammeter with a voltmeter at some point.
I talked with Shannon at Redline Gauge Works. He confirmed what I thought....NOBODY makes a "drop-in" Voltmeter gauge for the 68-70 Rallye cluster. They do conversions though, taking the ammeter and converting it and the cluster housing to allow the entire assembly to bolt in like stock. He also stated that in most instances, the ammeter is perfectly reliable. It is the addition of higher amp alternators and accessories with high current draw that cause trouble with ammeters.
I converted my red car, the '75 Power Wagon and a '72 Duster to avoid the potential future problems even though those cars don't have big stereos, electric fans or any crazy electrical toys.
This car shows no evidence of a big stereo. It had a 383 2 barrel with single exhaust so I can't imagine it had electric fans but the bulkhead plug is damaged and the ammeter was mangled with the wires bypassed . Something went wrong way back when.
Quotehttp://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,108698.0.html
I take it you've seen the DIY voltmeter thread. The result seemed really nice.
I didn't know about that thread. I'll read it all later today. Thank you very much!
Yesterday I returned the camshaft and bought some other stuff..... A Milodon water pump, Taylor spark plug wires, an MSD Blaster 2 coil and a socket that fits over the crank snout to rotate the crank.
The clerks at the counter were all amazed at the crappy machine work of the cam.
I called Racer Brown earlier in the week. Jim is going to make a custom grind, something a bit bigger than the 383/440 Magnum cam but a bit milder than the MP 280/474.
I'm back working on the wiring.
The bulkhead plug was the first job. I pulled and cleaned every terminal end then stuffed them in the replacement plug, one by one.
I used the factory service manual to map out and identify the wires and plugs. It was not as complete as I would expect because there are wires in the harness that are not mentioned in the FSM. Two of them are for the blower motor that ...on A/C cars, is on the engine side of the firewall. The wires are from terminals A and B. Neither are shown on the wire diagram. There are wires and plugs that are 18 gauge, yellow and a couple red ones that look original but are also not on the diagram. I may have to unwrap more of the black tape to see where they go just to satisfy my curiosity.
My red '70 had a 6 fuse fusebox and so did this one. I had a couple of 7 fuse units so both cars will have them.
I put the 7 fuse unit in Evaporust overnight and it came out pretty nice. Some previous owner tried some wiring work and had stuff connected wrong.
There is a supply side of the panel and then the fused side. It is a bad idea to connect to the supply side for the various power needs because if there is ever a problem, there is no fuse to protect the wiring.
Using the wire diagram, I placed all the wires where they are supposed to be. Some wires were replaced due to small burns or cracks.
I am actually going to connect the wires to the ammeter. This gauge cluster was in Ginger, my red car and the ammeter and wiring in that car were in great shape. I don't have a stereo, electric fans, power seats or windows, just the lights, gauges and heater/defroster.
The ammeter wires were extended a bit so I will be able to attach the wires and secure them easier. Given how delicate the pins are on the instrument cluster, I'm going to do the same there.
The wiring repairs are done. I made some tach wires since this car didn't have one originally. I fumbled through the service manual trying to find a schematic for the heater and defroster wiring but I found nothing. I figured it out. There is a 14 gauge wire, black with white stripe that powers up the blower motor for either the heater/defroster system or the heater and A/C. Both arrangements have their own small harness that is NOT shown in the wire diagrams or on the heater/A/C section of the manual that I have.
Regardless....
I have the bulkhead plug back in, the fuse box mounted and the instrument cluster wiring ready to click into place. I replaced the stock 6 unit fuse box with a 7 unit version.
Now I can put a battery in the car and use jumper wires to power up the interior to test the lights, turn signals, horn, gas gauge and using a drill, I can check the speedometer too!
It isn't stock, but I like the look of the painted pebble grain dash trim panels. I painted the ones for the instrument panel and above the glovebox but I don't have one for the center where the radio will be. I might make a factory appearing delete plate.
:o
Wow KD, that's way way more than I would bite off. Kudos to you!
Thank you.
I have seen guys post up their builds with extensive metalwork is required and it amazes me to see the car actually fit back together. The quarters and floor pans rotted off, roof reskinned, etc. To me, this is a big project but compared to others, this is maybe middle of the pack in terms of difficulty.
I paid $5000 for the car.
I have about $7500-8000 total into the car now.
I am using a LOT of good, used parts that I either already had or will have.
Front brakes are a combination of used rotors I already had, calipers from a Pick-N-Pull yard, used disc knuckles, NEW lower ball joints and new bushings that I had saved. The rear brakes are straight from a late 80s Chrysler at Pick-N-Pull. The wheels and tires are just temporary.
I did buy a new gas tank but am using a new sender that a friend gave me. There is a new AMD trunk floor and new fuel and vent lines.
So far, the money is in the engine since I am rebuilding it. New rings, bearings, pistons, gaskets, oil pump, water pump ,camshaft and lifters, distributor, alternator, thermostat and fluids. The trans is used but the factory high-stall converter was inspected by a shop. I have good used 1 7/8" headers and NEW Flowmasters in boxes. I'll have to have the exhaust pipes bent and installed.
For the interior, I still have the original front seats from my red car. The wiring work I'm doing now has cost about $40 in wire terminals, wire and shrink wrap.
After I posted about the camshaft problem, a VP from Comp Cams sent me a PM through another forum. He apologized and offered to "make it right".
I responded, thanking him for the offer and telling him that I appreciated a direct response with the apology. I went on to mention that I understood that stuff happens and that I'm just happy that I caught it before it made things worse. I also told him that it was not my intention to solicit free stuff so I will just let it go.
I put out the feelers for alternatives for a camshaft.
I called Racer Brown. The guy that answered sounds like a real old school cam dude. He seemed to be pretty knowledgeable but when I mentioned my concern about breaking in the cam and the risk of lifter quality and failures, he spoke as if he had never heard of it. That did not inspire confidence.
I get nervous every time I start up an engine with a new cam and lifters.
A guy at FBBO had a used Mopar Performance 280-474 cam with the lifters saved in order. I made a deal and they are in transit right now. This will alleviate some of the anxiety of a first fire once I finally get to that point.
The wiring is mostly done. The gauge panel is back in.
The car is an original A/C model but I am going to use a heater & defoster. I changed the firewall to allow a stock heater box to fit. I'm leaving the dash alone though. These A/C vents will stay because maybe someday I'll change to an aftermarket A/C system.
The center dash panel was missing from the car when I got it. Lucky for me, a 1970 Charger Registry forum member came though with this panel.
I am going to make some sort of dummy radio delete plate.
I have a glove box door but no liner. I hope to get one next weekend at the show and swap in Irwindale.
With the wiring inside pretty much sorted out, I ran the three sections on the engine side. The top plug is for the wiper motor and neutral safety switch but since I don't have a decent 3 speed wiper motor, I just installed the plug with 2 wires in it. The middle plug is for engine related stuff...Alternator charge wire, voltage regulator, ballast resistor, oil pressure, water temp, coil and in my case, electronic ignition. The bottom plug is for the lighting.
I have headlights! The left side has no lamps in place yet.
Taillights too....Sort of.
The center bulbs work but the outers don't. The sockets are cruddy so I'll need to solder in new ones.
I get no dash lights. The high beam indicator does come on but the dash stays dark. The bulbs looked good. The plug for the dimmer switch looked a bit dirty so I wonder if a good cleaning would help.
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 20, 2020, 01:12:01 AM
Taillights too....Sort of.
The center bulbs work but the outers don't. The sockets are cruddy so I'll need to solder in new ones.
I get no dash lights. The high beam indicator does come on but the dash stays dark. The bulbs looked good. The plug for the dimmer switch looked a bit dirty so I wonder if a good cleaning would help.
Roll the dimmer switch up and down a couple times with the lights on to see if the dash lights come on
Have you got enough lights hooked up yet to see if the dome light comes on if you roll the dimmer all the way to the top ?
The dimmer moves freely but has very little resistance to movement. I can't feel a detent where the dome would come on and where the dash lights are the brightest.
Looking good, great thread. What are your plans for the firewall paint? Assuming everything is just mocked up for a test?
This is not a test.
Too many cars get disassembled and sit for long periods of time. My goal with this car was to get it running and just enjoy it as a beater. Some may see it as a dirtbag way to be but some of the most fun that I have ever had was just bashing around on dirt trails in a V8, rear wheel drive car. Them Duke boys seem to have a blast, right?
I bought the car in September 2019. For the last couple of years, the Wife and I have considered a move out of state. I have several cars here that will be much easier to move if they are running and drivable. Some enthusiasts follow the habit of fully restoring their cars before seeing any street time but not me.
I love B-5 blue. Currently, my long term plan is to strip the car back down and do a proper body and paint job to it.
:cheers: I can respect that. I know exactly what you mean which is why when I restored my Charger, I did the engine bay/inside trunk/deck lid and jambs first so I could put the drivetrain in and drive it/move it around while doing the bodywork.
Being from New England, I am always scared of leaving anything in primer as it can soak up moisture like a sponge.
I agree !!!!!s DRIVE IT :2thumbs:
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 20, 2020, 01:12:01 AM
Taillights too....Sort of.
The center bulbs work but the outers don't. The sockets are cruddy so I'll need to solder in new ones.
I get no dash lights. The high beam indicator does come on but the dash stays dark. The bulbs looked good. The plug for the dimmer switch looked a bit dirty so I wonder if a good cleaning would help.
Dash lights are connected to the main voltage, or the dash voltage regulator?. The first thing to check is probably the switch (and maybe bypass it to the dash power cable to see if it works), and that dash you probably fixed and used before, but I'm just thinking about it.
I found that disassembly and cleaning of the switch helped me with dash lights. That may not be your case. I checked resistance with my trusty multimeter and could see it had gaps in contact. I cleaned with hot vinaigre (sour wine or vinegar if you speak english - left in my french spelling just for you :icon_smile_big:) and then neutralized with baking soda solution.
By the way, I really like the comment "Some may see it as a dirtbag way to be but some of the most fun ....."
I say go for it. You have a nice one and you know what you are doing. I doubt you plan to drive it to its death... At least I hope not.
:2thumbs:
Thanks for understanding, guys..... :2thumbs:
Each his own. I would love to see that car on the street or dirt road.
Coming along nicely!
Needless to say I appreciate and support your cheap thrills approach to this build, keep it between the ditches :2thumbs:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50215874966_b82bdaf9b2_b.jpg)
Heck yeah....we could have been brothers!
For a lot of Charger owners, they regard these cars with such importance that they wouldn't dare to be seen in a beat down car like mine. That is fine. There is room for all types in this hobby.
To the others.....
Thank you.
A lot of the work and parts have been done with low cost in mind. I'm not a cheap ass but I do enjoy looking for ways to "repurpose" parts where I can. Some things you have to get new because it makes no sense to use a used part. Gaskets, crusty wiring, fluids, brake lines and other obvious things.
I have sold parts to fund this project from the start. There is a small part of this car that was actually paid for from my savings. I parted out cars and sold off some of my 64-66 Valiant parts stash to fund this project. I sold a 65 Valiant Convertible for $2000, the buyer still owes me half of that. In the last 18 months, I've sold a few 8 3/4" axles, a 340, 383 and 440 engine, small parts through online forums and in total, I have just under $7500 in this car with about $1800 of it being from my own account.
In the late 90s, I made a couple of video movies using my family and friends. The plot centered around me being an amateur Bounty Hunter driving a 73 Duster. I drove it much like the Duke Boy's General Lee. Dirt roads, paved roads, through shallow creeks and tall grass. It was THE most fun that I have ever had in my life aside from "Alone time" with women.
My red car is too nice to drive off road throwing rocks everywhere. It isn't a dedicated show car....It is a great street performer that looks nice but I find myself restrained in how I drive and enjoy it. There lies the trouble with restoring a classic. You spend so much time making it nice, it prevents you from driving it without worry.
Doesn't the Roadkill Guys drive beat up Mopars. :scratchchin:
I agree, I've had a couple of nice cars in the past, I didn't enjoy them as much as the dented and faded paint cars. I ended up selling them because I got bored with them.
I do like to make the interior nice and comfortable, and the drivetrain/electrical system bulletproof. I'll spend half a day making the doors open and close like new and the windows roll up and down better than new, before I'll spend any time on the exterior appearance.
Another plus is it might save you a murder conviction when some careless idiot damages your car and then acts like it's no big deal!
That is great!
I was optimistic that once I started connecting stuff, the lights would work.
I put a turn signal lamp in the right side of the valance, 2 headlights from the parts shed then .....There was L I G H T !
The center bulbs were the only ones that lit up so I soldered in newer sockets in the outers. The rh inner worked once I changed the bulb but it was really bright, sort of like a brake light. It also dimmed the middle and outer bulb so I just pulled the bulb and put the sockets in the housings without any bulbs in them.
The headlights work but the door motor didn't work. I am pretty sure that I turned the headlights on without turning the key on so maybe it does work?
If not, the relay in the dash could be dead or the door motor could be bad.
I thought that someone on this forum had a modern solution for the headlight door relay.
The pictures below seem to be for a headlight relay, not for the headlight door relay. Am I wrong?
I'm not sure what you had installed, but the taillight inners require different bulbs than the others, #67.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=103754.0
Thank you!
I clicked on that link and saw this:
"Using an 1156 for the inners make them brighter than the outers when the headlights are on."
I also read this further down:
" I researched this a while ago for my Charger. Here are the specs I found;
#1095 - 7.14 watt
#67 - 7.96 watt
#89 - 7.54 watt
#97 - 9.32 watt
The #1157 outer bulbs are 8.26/26.88 watt
The 89 is closest in wattage to the original 1095, but I went with the 67 because it is closest to the 1157 park wattage and easy to find. I think that gives a consistent brightness between the 3 bulbs."
That thread was really helpful. Thank you!
Your welcome.
The bulbs are physically smaller, a bulb like the 1156, along with being too bright, sits very close to the lens and can potentially melt it.
sorry, I checked your post again, and found my answer not related...
The headlight door motor was dead. I tested the spares that I have here. Two of the 5 still worked. Two wouldn't operate at all and one just spun but did not drive the rod. I suspect that the gear inside was broken.
I understand that there are internal stops that are adjustable. This one H/L door motor I swapped in closes the doors just fine but won't open them until I screw the knob several turns to take up the slack. I first thought the battery had discharged from testing everything but after an overnight recharge, it acted the same.
I soldered new wires in to fix the reverse lamps. I'm not sure of how to test these until I have the transmission in place but they are not a crucial part of the car yet.
MY experience with electrical systems is limited but I am learning as I go. It feels pretty good to have success with something that is fairly new to me.
Looking good Greg! I envy your approach. I'm going to try and enjoy my car once it is one again. Time will tell. I love the idea of driving these cars like we use to when they weren't mobile china stores. Drive it like you stole it! :coolgleamA:
Once more Greg love watching your progress. Keep the faith! lol
Yes the head light door motor has stops inside that the plastic gear will lift open and shut
You might just have some crude in the one direction
You can take this apart but be very careful
It can be very fiddly to get it to work right and you can not really tell till you put it all back together
Or you can open and close them by hand. How much driving do you do at night ?
QuoteThe headlight door motor was dead.
(https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//N3108/large/17190392_rnb_55196_alt3_pri_larg.jpg)
That is an old school remedy right there!
Have you seen the prices of rebuilt ones ? Crazy money.
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 20, 2020, 01:41:35 PM
...Too many cars get disassembled and sit for long periods of time. My goal with this car was to get it running and just enjoy...
AMEN!!!!! The REAL payoff is driving them!! The only downside is as a "beater" is every time you stop you'll have someone walk up offering you as much as
$4000 for you car!!!! lol
you're making incredible progress! keep up the good work! :cheers:
Quote from: ACUDANUT on October 25, 2020, 08:48:51 AM
Have you seen the prices of rebuilt ones ? Crazy money.
I have not looked. Over $300 ?
The only reason that I have 5 is because they were found on Chryslers in the Pick N Pull yards when I was first getting started with my other car.
Quote from: AKcharger on October 25, 2020, 09:33:32 AM
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 20, 2020, 01:41:35 PM
...Too many cars get disassembled and sit for long periods of time. My goal with this car was to get it running and just enjoy...
AMEN!!!!! The REAL payoff is driving them!! The only downside is as a "beater" is every time you stop you'll have someone walk up offering you as much as $4000 for you car!!!! lol
you're making incredible progress! keep up the good work! :cheers:
I am actually looking forward to messing with those guys once the car is roadworthy.
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 25, 2020, 12:35:56 PM
Quote from: AKcharger on October 25, 2020, 09:33:32 AM
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 20, 2020, 01:41:35 PM
...Too many cars get disassembled and sit for long periods of time. My goal with this car was to get it running and just enjoy...
AMEN!!!!! The REAL payoff is driving them!! The only downside is as a "beater" is every time you stop you'll have someone walk up offering you as much as $4000 for you car!!!! lol
you're making incredible progress! keep up the good work! :cheers:
I am actually looking forward to messing with those guys once the car is roadworthy.
:yesnod: Take their numbers and say, "I'll call you back next week..." :smilielol:
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 25, 2020, 12:35:00 PM
Quote from: ACUDANUT on October 25, 2020, 08:48:51 AM
Have you seen the prices of rebuilt ones ? Crazy money.
I have not looked. Over $300 ?
The only reason that I have 5 is because they were found on Chryslers in the Pick N Pull yards when I was first getting started with my other car.
Yep and then some.
I made a deal to buy a good used MP 280/474 hydraulic flat tappet cam with the matching lifters. It arrived a few days ago but I was busy with some yard work.
Today I found an electronic distributor in my stash. I don't recall where I got it, maybe it was in with any of the collections of parts that I have bought over the years.
It is for a B series block like this 383.
I welded the slots to reduce the total spark advance since I will probably need 18-19 degrees of initial timing to idle decently. It will top out in the 33-34 degree range.
Starting a fresh engine always makes me nervous. I wince at the thought of wasting a cam or lifters. That won't be a problem this time because the cam I have has already been broken in.
Also, I took the distributor and hooked it to the wiring of the car along with the coil. With the ignition ON, I spun the distributor shaft and saw S-P-A-R-K !
This was great. It shows that the car's wiring is working and that the distributor is as well.
Gettin ready to make noise!
:popcrn:
DC.com member BDF6 came though for me. I asked around about the cost of getting an exhaust system made and he sent me a PM at FBBO. For $200, he sold me a
2 1/2" stainless steel Pypes "Header back" setup with chrome tips. This is great because I'll be able to start the engine with full exhaust for 1/4 the price of having a shop do the work, plus this is all mandrel bent.
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 31, 2020, 02:00:51 AM
DC.com member BDF6 came though for me. I asked around about the cost of getting an exhaust system made and he sent me a PM at FBBO. For $200, he sold me a
2 1/2" stainless steel Pypes "Header back" setup with chrome tips. This is great because I'll be able to start the engine with full exhaust for 1/4 the price of having a shop do the work, plus this is all mandrel bent.
Score !! Looks bigger than 2 and half.
Nice find on the exhaust. I had exhaust made for my red 1969 survivor charger and it was a lot more expensive then I expected.
My 3" TTI mandrel bent stainless steel with flowmaster 2 chamber race mufflers was around $800 I think but that was almost 20 years ago.
Good score and nice of BDF6
Well, it isn't a $40,000 Hemi, that is for certain.
Going just from memory, This is what I have in the engine so far.
*Block and heads: Included with the car.
*Machine work including bore/hone, deck block, polish crank and resize rods and hot tank : $600
*Head porting: Free, I did it myself.
*Pistons, pins and rings, valley pan: $600 (I think)
*Cam and lifters, oil pump: $290
*Water pump, coil, spark plug wires: $220
*The Right Stuff sealant, Locktite, intake manifold bolt sealant: $40
*Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, gaskets, fuel filter and regulator: $460.
*Electronic distributor: FREE, I did recurve it and limited the amount of advance.
*Motor mounts, timing set, freeze plugs, fuel pump, pushrods, rocker arms, oil pan, timing cover, valve covers: F R E E, I had them in the shed.
That is under $2400 so far. I have 3 carburetors to pick from. I will still need spark plugs, oil, a thermostat, anti-freeze, fan belts and a few more things.
Today, I got the cam in place. To recap, it is a Mopar Performance 280/474 hydraulic. I bought it used but the lifters were kept in order. The cam fit in easily and spins freely. The lifters all spun in the bores like they should.
The engine has been bagged for the past three weeks.....
Remember about 3 weeks ago when I posted about the problems with the Comp Cam I had? I posted in the engine forum here. It had 7 lobes with sharp, unfinished edges on it. I chose not to use it and returned it to the Summit Racing store in Nevada. Some thought that the lobes would be fine but look again and tell me you still feel the same way.
See, the lifters are wider than the lobes and they sit off center a bit too.
Rocker arms are on, timing set and oil slinger too.
I took a chance and went to the last Speed shop in the Sacramento area. I was looking for an intake manifold, specifically an Edelbrock Performer RPM.
These guys had one in stock and it was priced the same as Summit!
did you have to pump up the lifters before you installed them?
Good God, looking at the lobes on that Comp Cam camshaft, I don't blame you for returning it immediately. I have NEVER seen a cam with "painted over lobes" in my life. That thing is just begging for failure, looking at that, how in the hell are they still in business? Obviously their operation is entirely in the Chinese hands now...talk about a lack of communications in manufacturing!
What a shit show. :faint:
Anyway, I have logged in today for the first time in ages (life got the best of me for a couple years), and have read your thread from cover to (today's) cover. I love that you have chosen to bring this Charger back from the dead. :2thumbs: I have two '70's of my own that I have realized I doubt I'll ever bring back (and will probably find them new homes soon), but I'm glad to see your enthusiastic zeal for this one.
Keep at it!! :coolgleamA:
Thank you.
This car had crash damage, not rust damage. I was lucky to have that complete front structure to use. I see guys with stripped out hulks that need rails, floors and quarters and know that I had a much easier time than they did.
Quote from: hemi-hampton on November 01, 2020, 09:32:40 AM
did you have to pump up the lifters before you installed them?
Are you serious ? all you do is soak them in oil first ?
I remember reading about pumping up lifters. In all the engine builds that I have done, I only did this once....and the cam went flat. It may have been UNrelated.
Currently, I am at an impasse with this project.
I could keep going and get the car running and driving but to do so means dipping into the savings account. I need a transmission, cooler and cooler lines, a drive shaft and some type of transmission kickdown system. I can get by with the column shift linkage for now.
Here is the thing.....
Before I even bought this car, I brainstormed how I can get this car built by using "hand-me-down" parts from the red car. It is a great way to fix up two cars while saving some cash. Jigsaw already has the gauges, headlight harness, radiator, fan, water pump housing and a few other bits from Ginger the red car. Jigsaw is also going to get the original bucket seats, rear seat, floor shift column, shift linkage and carpet from Ginger.
One part of the parts-sharing plan was to do a Tremec 5 speed swap into Ginger then use all of the automatic trans stuff in Jigsaw. I didn't intend to jump right into this car until I had completed the 5 speed swap. The Silver Sport kit hasn't even been ordered yet. I planned to pay for it with the sale of a '65 Dart that I painted awhile back. I have had the title for well over a year but have totally dragged my feet on putting it up for sale.
I plan to list the Dart on ebay within the next few days. When it sells, I'll move ahead with the 5 speed setup. Maybe I'll start a new thread to show the steps of the conversion.
Of course. Only need to look as far as https://youtu.be/7Mk1nykjnYA (https://youtu.be/7Mk1nykjnYA), to know these sorts of things are important.
Quote from: ACUDANUT on November 02, 2020, 07:38:36 PM
Quote from: hemi-hampton on November 01, 2020, 09:32:40 AM
did you have to pump up the lifters before you installed them?
Are you serious ? all you do is soak them in oil first ?
The dart is nice. Wish I had that myself. :2thumbs:
Thank you, NOG !
The Dart is now on ebay so hopefully it will sell soon. I've sold 10 cars on ebay and only a few sold on the first attempt. I have a fair reserve on it so maybe I'll do okay on it. I have the money for the 5 speed swap but I like spending newfound money on car stuff. Digging into savings is something I try to avoid unless it is something costing only a few hundred dollars. This Tremec kit will be around $6500 so I really prefer to use the Dart sale to fund it.
One idea that I have had.....I could install the 383 with any of the 727 transmissions I have up the hil just to get the engine in the car and positioned right. This would allow me to run the headers and exhaust system, plumb the engine fuel system, install the radiator, water pump and fan, power steering and alternator....then when I have the 727 out of the red car, I could swap transmissions and install the parts I need here. The down side is that I'd be installing a transmission twice. Not really a problem though since I'm off work and really like this stuff.
The Dart looks awesome!!! Good luck on the sale. That would be a fun car to cruise!!!
KD, This Tremec kit will be around $6500 ? Why not just go with the 727 ?
KD - I like the 5 speed I have, but there are things I would like better with shifting. If you can find someone close to you who has one you can drive a bit, you might get some ideas about what to look for and modify. I swapped the centering springs in my shifter for what I like and also shortened the shifter handle. There are still things I would consider with shifter and clutch pedal travel that I have seen on some other more modern cars. From what I read, I believe you have a better handle on these sorts of things than I do, so you may have them already sorted. Just thought I would pitch in my :Twocents: in case it helped with planning and implementing.
Quote from: ACUDANUT on November 18, 2020, 05:20:44 PM
KD, This Tremec kit will be around $6500 ? Why not just go with the 727 ?
Jigsaw is going to stay an automatic.
I have owned the red car since March 2000. It had a 318 and 904 when I bought it, I converted it to the 440 & 727. The transmission I have works fine. I just think I'll enjoy the car more with a manual trans and overdrive. I had a Gear Vendors overdrive for a couple of years and even though the OD was only .78, it was nice to see the rpms drop and have less noise at 75 mph.
Quote from: XH29N0G on November 18, 2020, 07:11:43 PM
KD - I like the 5 speed I have, but there are things I would like better with shifting. If you can find someone close to you who has one you can drive a bit, you might get some ideas about what to look for and modify. I swapped the centering springs in my shifter for what I like and also shortened the shifter handle. There are still things I would consider with shifter and clutch pedal travel that I have seen on some other more modern cars. From what I read, I believe you have a better handle on these sorts of things than I do, so you may have them already sorted. Just thought I would pitch in my :Twocents: in case it helped with planning and implementing.
A few years back, I drove a 69 Coronet R/T with the Keisler 5 speed. I drove it easy out of respect for the owner so I don't really know how it is going to feel under hard throttle use, cornering and road course driving. Forum member Derwud had a '70 with a 5 speed and he LOVES it. These Tremecs have a short throw to them. He suggested a ball for a knob but I am tempted to go with a Pistol Grip. These transmissions have the shifter coming up through the same spot as a stock 4 speed. The kit has the hydraulic clutch setup so it should feel more like a modern car and less clunky/notchy or stiff as an original one does. That Coronet was mechanical linkage and it actually seemed okay.
I converted a 76 Camaro to a 4 speed in 1996. The car was MUCH more fun with the manual trans. I did the same to a '74 Duster in 2009. The Duster had the 833 regular and later an 833 OD trans. Those were tough transmissions but not really smooth operating for me. The OD 833 was crappy for a high performance car.
I would be interested to see if there is a difference between the older clutch and hydraulic one. I am still using the old z bar and clutch.
Also wonder if there is a difference between bench and bucket seats in the ergonomics of shifting. (Wow, never thought I would use a word I almost exclusively associate with computers with these cars.)
Don't get me wrong. I really like mine. I like it better than the original 3 speed manual, than the OD 4 speed I replaced it with, and than any automatic I have driven. I just find it a little more difficult to shift than some of the european transmissions I have shifted. But there, I am not sitting up like a truck driver looking out over the hood.
Do the buckets sit you down lower than the bench? You have one in one car and the other in t'other, right?
I like this thread and really like the dart. When new, my XH was bought to replace a red, 1960 valliant.
:2thumbs:
The car featured in this thread is the wrecked XH that came with a bench seat. I will keep the bench for awhile but do eventually plan to swap in the original bucket seats from my red car, Ginger. "Jigsaw" was a 383 727 and I plan to keep it that way. It will be column shifted until I swap to buckets later on.
Ginger has Dodge Neon SRT4 bucket seats that sit lower than the stock bucket seats. I'm 5'10" so I'm not too tall or too short. I've driven newer cars with manual transmissions that have internal rail actuation as well as front wheel drive cable operated shifters. The RWD internal rails are smooth and give decent feel. The external linkage transmissions of the classics have a heavier, more mechanical feel to them. Not necessarily a bad thing but not as smooth to row as a newer car. FWD cars with cable shifted setups feel soggy and vague by comparison, almost the opposite of a Muncie or 833 and closer to the feel of a video game.
On December 2nd, I ordered the Tremec 5 speed kit for "Ginger".
All of the automatic transmission stuff will be pulled, cleaned and used in Jigsaw. This saves a LOT of cash!
This trans was rebuilt in 2006 but has less than 8000 miles on it. Deep pan, shift kit and it operates well. I have an 11" converter in it that was built in 2014, a B & M flexplate and a transmission crossmember modified to use the spool type mount. Cooler lines, aftermarket external cooler and the Bouchillon cable kickdown kit.
The 727 is out of the red car. It looks dirty but will clean up. I painted it black in 2006 when I first installed it. The paint didn't stick well.
The input shaft seal is still good, no sign of leaks there.
Since the Tremec swap is done in Ginger, I am ready to get back to work on this car, Jigsaw.
The 383 has been on the engine stand completed since October. They look so nice when they are clean!
Great motor. :cheers: :cheers:
The factory service manual shows how IF you put the "converter drive plate" in the position where that small drilled hole is at 12:00 and the converter drain plug is at 6:00, the bolt patterns of the converter and drive plate line up.
The engine and trans are IN !
I was by myself but was still able to get them in with the hood in place.
The bell housing seems to be real close to the trans tunnel. The red car has more room with a thicker manual trans bell....
I mentioned in the Tremec swap thread how the crossmember and mount I had in Ginger with the 727 sat lower than the cube shaped mount that I had set aside for this car.
You Had zero help. Damn
If the cube shaped mount is correct, I'm fine with that. The higher the transmission sits, the closer the headers will be to the body, helping ground clearance.
With the engine and trans in place, I can now move ahead with all sorts of things.
Nice job getting the engine in there Kern Dog. :2thumbs:
You got the engine in the car with the hood still on the car ??
That is usually the first thing I have to take off for an engine swap
The cherry picker was attached directly to the engine lift plate. This makes for a compact setup. :2thumbs:
Quote from: Kern Dog on February 25, 2021, 02:30:34 AM
The factory service manual shows how IF you put the "converter drive plate" in the position where that small drilled hole is at 12:00 and the converter drain plug is at 6:00, the bolt patterns of the converter and drive plate line up.
I hope the trans is Stock because that stock Converter Drive Plate or Flex Plate will not hold up to any high performance driving, they like to break & snap off around the Bolts. That's why I had a thick solid race Flex Plate but my Motor & Trans was Built. LEON.
Thanks. I don't drag race. I peel out and like to have fun but I think I'll be okay. I had a "drive plate" like that on my first 2 440s in the red car and didn't have any trouble. This 383 surely will make less power. I have the car lift and will be able to do periodic inspections.
The SFI certified drive plate in the red car had 2 broken sections when I pulled it out to install the Tremec.
Today was mostly about getting the carburetor and throttle set up.
I put on a Holley 600 that I had rebuilt a year or so ago. The 600 may seem small but the 440 Magnum used a 580 cfm Carter. The Holley carburetors come with the Chevy throttle arm and need the adapter bracket # 20-7.
I had to put a "button" on the bottom for the Bouchillon kickdown cable to attach.
I needed some sort of bracket for the throttle cable and transmission kickdown. I had a bracket from a van or motorhome. I had to grind it a bit and shape it to clear the intake runners. I found another bracket to use for the throttle return springs.
The taller intake made it so the throttle cable was TOO short. Years ago, I found that the 73-76 A body used a throttle cable that is a direct fit and is about 4 inches longer.
Water pump and housing are on, the WP and crank pulleys were sandblasted and painted semi-gloss black.
I didn't paint the grooves of the pulleys.
The 383 is a shorter engine than a 413-426-440 due to the lower deck height. This meant that the air cleaner fit under the hood with no special dropped base.
Great progress !!!
Great JOB Sir. I take it you have maybe a truck radiator ? I only ask because that water pump housing ?
The first 440 that I built was from a 1978 Chrysler New Yorker. That is the water pump housing from that engine. I used it from 2001 to 2018 in the red car. I only changed it because I was adding A/C and wanted to use an aluminum WP housing and a copy of this style wasn't available at the time.
Is there any adjustment on the Bouchillon kick down cable? I have a friend that installed the cable and his car is not shifting properly, he wanted me to have a look at it. Any advice before i go and check the cable?
The cable actually has 2 points to adjust. There is a sliding collar in the cable itself and then there is the square hole bracket it fits into that has a slotted groove.
I would have painted the inner fenders first :popcrn:
He's doing mockup. He'll tear it back apart once he's done, and slap a $100k paint job on it and flip for for double.
Option 2 is drive it just the way it is, once he gets it running
Option 2 is the plan.
I am going to willingly drive it as a car that guys in the 70s and 80s used to do.....Just get it running and NOT focus on the appearance.
Guys in Auto Shop in High school had ratty looking cars that had beat up bodies and ratty interiors but ran like the wind. That is the goal here. I already have a shiny one. It will be nice to have one that can take a scratch or a dent without ruining the day.
I like chrome but I wanted a more low key look for this engine. The Edelbrock air cleaner was the only chrome on the engine so I sand blasted it and painted it black.
I prefer the black as well.
Just a general question, why do people not paint the intake or water pump housing?
I can't bring myself to paint aluminum stuff. Maybe leaving it natural finish is like showing off a bit.
Quote from: Kern Dog on March 08, 2021, 04:43:58 AM
I can't bring myself to paint aluminum stuff. Maybe leaving it natural finish is like showing off a bit.
I agree, why hide Aluminum parts with paint ? Show it off !!
Good work!
Thank you, guys. :2thumbs:
Last week in my red car, Ginger,I added a headlight relay kit made by a guy in Southern CA. He goes by the name "Crackedback" on a few internet forums. The car developed a few strange symptoms as a result....The headlights wanted to come on when I turned the ignition key. It turned out to be a problem with the 1970 headlight door relay. I swapped in a newer Bosch 30A relay and the problem was fixed.
I decided to change the relay in this car to the same style.
Nice work :2thumbs:
A little bit of progress has been made. The radiator I'm using is a Griffin that was in Ginger from 2001 to 2019.
I am lucky to have some spare parts in the shed. I grabbed an alternator, a power steering pump and hoses, fan clutch and fan and an Edelbrock fuel pump from the shed and put them in.
The first fan clutch that I was going to use sat too close to the radiator. I had a NEW Hayden 2947, the one that has a neck about 5/8" shorter.
Quote from: Kern Dog on March 12, 2021, 02:55:18 AM
The first fan clutch that I was going to use sat too close to the radiator. I had a NEW Hayden 2947, the one that has a neck about 5/8" shorter.
just ran into this problem on my 68 charger who knew there were so many , the 2947 did the trick it is super thin . Oriellys wanted 100 bucks plus shipping and it was special order .
got it for 40.00 bucks at Rock Auto
Score! :2thumbs:
I think I bought mine through Summit 2 years ago.
I'm the same with stainless and aluminum...usually like to leave them raw. The Eddy lid looks good black...I've got the same on my Charger and had always toyed with painting it.
I do like chrome but with no other stuff on the engine being chrome, painting it made sense.
I moved the car over to the other room and put it up on the lift for all the underbody stuff. Exhaust, ATF lines, shift linkage, drive shaft...all that stuff.
I was expecting to encounter some fitment problems with the headers. These were free so I figured that the "price" would be the work I had to do to make them fit and clear everything. These are Hooker # 5903 and don't look like they had much run time if any. The paint was scratched up but not burned off like you usually see with headers that have had any street time.
I unbolted the center link to get the header in but put it back up afterwards. I left the engine bolted down. Oddly, the left side just slipped right into place.
The # 3 and 5 cleared the steering box by a fair margin. They all cleared the torsion bar too. The same part # headers didn't fit as well with a 440 in my red car. The lower deck of the 383 must have helped.
The head of the Pitman arm did make some light contact so I dented the pipe enough to clear.
The right side is usually the easy side. On Big Block cars, there is no oil filter. There isn't any shift linkage, no cooler lines, no speedometer cable either.
Uhhh....What about the dipstick tube?
Yeah. The dipstick tube that I had with this trans that was also in the red car worked and cleared fine before. With these headers, the #6 tube wanted to occupy the same space as the dipstick tube.
The clearance to the transmission pan rail was nil. Contact.
The head of the Idler arm hit a tube as well.
A few clearance dents and it all cleared.
The Dipstick tube was an easy fix.
I went to the shed and pulled out my spares. I have stuff from small block, slant six and who knows what else.
What I needed was something to move the top of the tube to the outside of the header tube.
The black one to the right was what I used. It has one bend at the bottom and with a straight shot to the top, it clears the header tube and the body. I had to weld on an extension to the mounting tab.
So starting at the 5K what cost are you at now? :scratchchin:
I may be off by a small amount but I am under $8000.
Stuff like the trunk floor, gas tank and rear window were about $850. It is the new stuff that emptied the pockets. Most of the used stuff was bought at fair prices or already in the shed.
How many hours so far? :scratchchin:
Ooooo...That would be really difficult to determine. I am a terrible estimator of time that I need to complete a job. I'm such a proud optimist, I think I can do something in 3 hours and sometimes it takes 3 days.
I've been in construction since 1986. I often think I can finish a project in 2 days but rarely meet the goal. My best efforts are estimating how much time I can shave when I do a repeat of the same job. MY specialty was roof framing. Housing, specifically. I'd work on housing tracts and we'd do the same 4-6 roof designs over and over. Once you figure out the peculiarities, you can get a good idea of where to save time.
I'm in no hurry with this car. I am enjoying the build. I wanted to get it running so it will be easier to move around the backyard. The Wife and I are considering a move and with all these cars, it will be easier to transport them if they can be driven onto a trailer or transport truck.
Enjoying this build!
Your headers reminded me of an episode of "Engine Masters" on Motortrend TV. They were testing the effects from bashing header tubes for clearance and at the end it really didn't make much of a difference in power how much they smashed them... :Twocents:
As dirtbag as that may seem, I use that principle as an excuse to not feel bad about the dents.
The left side would have needed no dents if I had a stock pitman arm. The right would have still needed work at the transmission pan rail area.
The shift linkage in the car is sorted out. I decided to hook up the column shift for now. Later when I get more time, I'll swap in the floor shifter, bucket seats, console and other odds and ends.
I used the linkage from Ginger except for the floor shift parts. I found at first that the cross shaft sat out of level. The side that attaches to the transmission fits into a 90 degree bracket with a nylon bushing. The L bracket was from the other car and it all seemed fine in that car. I have since realized that the transmission sat too low in that car due to an error in how I converted it to the spool mount design.
Back on topic....
The L bracket on the transmission comes in a few different lengths. In the picture, you'll see two of them. I first tried the bracket on the right. The one on the left is shorter and put the linkage right where it needed to be.
The drive shaft is in along with the neutral safety switch wiring.
The headers went in easily but the left side is like most....it requires the starter to be installed at the same time. The pipes are spread enough to fit a big stock starter in there but I am using a MIni by Denso.
The dents I put in to clear the idler, Pitman and the transmission pan rail seem adequate.
Last year sometime I bought a used exhaust setup from a guy on FBBO.
The "Pypes" kit is a 2 1/2" stainless steel, mandrel bent setup with an X center section. It all slips together but I'm going to weld the seams.
The TTI headers in my red car have collectors that aim toward the humps in the crossmember. These Hooker headers do not. Because of this, the left side pipe will need to jog over to clear. The right side is almost a straight shot.
In a stroke of great luck, I found a section of pipe up the hill that had a zig-zag in it !
The right side is almost a straight shot.
The exhaust is almost done. Remember, this setup came as a mostly complete kit. I just needed to bridge between the header and the pipes just ahead of the X pipe.
I looked through some containers of various header parts, collectors, clamps, etc....
I used regular MIG wire even though most of the pipes were stainless steel.
The pipes coming off of the X section were welded, the collectors too. I welded the mufflers to the X section.
I clamped the tailpipes to the exit of the mufflers and put hangers there.
I also decided to use clamps on the front section of the X pipe. This will allow easier removal when the need arises, like when I take it back apart to paint it.
I hadn't looked at the headers from above until a few minutes ago. All the installation was done from underneath.
I was amazed at the big open space I'll have to get the starter wires in place. Wow....I've haven't seen access like this in years!
# 1 header tube runs over the top of the others and turns down behind #7. The TTI 2" pipes in my red car have #1 turning down in front of cyl #7. NO room there !
J I G S A W runs!
Woooooo!
It was difficult to get it to start. The carburetor and distributor were not new. This low deck B series distributor is electronic and the only one that I have. I did test it by connecting the wire plug and spinning the shaft with the distributor out of the engine. It did send spark to the plugs.
The carburetor though....It looks fine but it occurred to me that THIS one was on my 75 Power Wagon and pulled off because it wouldn't idle.
I was trying to do a "first fire" on an engine with a few unknown parts.
Lucky for me, the cam and lifters are used but the lifters were put back in the same places. Some extended cranking wasn't going to wipe the cam.
I'd get a backfire through the carburetor or the tailpipes. It had me confused. I verified TDC and #1 firing order and stabbed the distributor. I cranked it to advance some or retard some....Nothing was working.
THEN I looked at the distributor cap. I had the firing order WRONG. I had it clockwise like a A-LA -Magnum series, not Counterclockwise for the B/RB series. I don't think that I have made this mistake in several years, if ever.
Boom...It started right up and blew a backfire and black smoke through the exhaust! It wouldn't stay running though.
It was then that I remembered that this carburetor was the one that I had shelved a few years ago.
I grabbed a Carter 4 barrel that a FBBO member sent me a couple of years ago. I bolted it on and ran a temporary fuel line just to get it to start and run. The Carter has no provision to attach the transmission kickdown button that is needed for the cable kickdown setup.
It started up and ran great! It idles smoother than I expected and it runs quieter too. The exhaust is quiet but does cackle a bit under throttle. No valvetrain noise, no exhaust leaks but....Whoa....The valve covers were pissing oil! They are cast aluminum and the gaskets are Moroso blue silicone with steel cores. The valve cover gasket rails are flat and straight. I suspect that I just didn't have the bolts tight enough.
I pulled each valve cover and cleaned the oil film from the gaskets, then bolted them back down. The lower-outer corners have studs but the holes in the valve covers do allow some movement. I did like I do with the MP VCs in Ginger....Hold the valve covers UP close to the intake while tightening the bolts. This aligns the gasket rails so the bottom edges sit evenly on the heads.
I'll know tomorrow if the oil leaks are gone.
I'm happy that it runs though!
Congrats KD Nice work! It never gets old hearing them fire up for the first time!
Thanks, Pete!
The transmission works. Power steering does too. I filled the reservoir twice....I think the steering chuck was dry!
The alternator runs at a discharge but I didn't know if it was good or not when I bolted it on. I never tested it. I may buy a rebuilt one.
The gauges don't read except the Tach and Ammeter. The speedometer should work. The dash lights are dead. Maybe the panel dimmer is bad?
I found a loose gallery plug at the back of the block near the bellhousing flange. It opposes the oil pressure sending unit. That was causing the massive oil stream, not the valve covers.
It was 11:45 and as I was tinkering out in the shop, the Wife came out sporting "that look" that they get sometimes. One dog of ours barks every time I start the Red car and apparently, he is just as entertained by the exhaust tone of THIS car.
I had to come back inside. More tomorrow though!
KD, :cheers:
Yesterday it ran, today it also drives!
I replaced the alternator and the ammeter now shows a charge at idle. The Carter carburetor was pulled and a Holley 750 was cleaned up and put on. I had to reroute the fuel line to match the right side fuel inlet.
I backed it out of the shop and made two loops in the backyard and was ready to take it on the road through the neighborhood....When fwoooosh! Steam came up at the front of the car. Son of a bitch.
The lower radiator hose slipped off of the water pump housing. I usually use water only when I get a fresh engine up and running. I'd rather not lose anti-freeze to a leak so I wait to see if the system is leak free before I pour in the Prestone. Good thing. I put the hose back on, filled it with water and let it run, Ho harm done.
I'm not sure what I will do with the car once the various small details are addressed. I might register and insure it so I can legally drive it. I may take some small trips around town to make sure it is reliable before considering anything out of town.
The rear window still needs to be installed but I need to prime and paint the window channel before I can do that. There are some trim clips to replace as well. I bought a set when I bought the rear window.
It is a mixed bag to report. The engine runs great, sounds great and performs great...But I have some valve cover leaks to attend to. For some reason, these blue Moroso gaskets don't seal well.
* The speedometer doesn't move. The cable spins, there is a 34 tooth speedo pinion in place and the cable is pressed to the back of the speedo.
* The tach is acting weird. It is dead most of the time but when it does come alive, it holds at idle but drops to zero when I rev the throttle.
* The gas gauge hasn't budged even with 5 gallons in the tank.
* The temp gauge is dead too. I grounded the purple wire to the temp sender and the gauge didn't move.
* The oil pressure gauge is dead.
The cluster is from the red car, Ginger. I pulled it because the temp and oil pressure gauges were not working consistently. The gas gauge worked though.
I have no front sway bar yet but I did take it out in the neighborhood. It feels remarkably stable. The steering is responsive, the brakes are great. I did 2 burnouts. It sounds great under throttle!
There isn't any pressure to fix all of these problems right now. I wanted to get it running and driving and I met that goal. I have a mechanical oil pressure gauge I can put in. I would rather have all the factory gauges working though. I have 2 other clusters that I can try but the faces of the gauges are badly faded. If they work, vinyl overlays could be used until I decide to upgrade.
I have to stop the valve cover leaks though. I can't stand to drive a car that leaves a stream of smoke like a crop duster!
With all the gauges having issues I wonder if it has something to do with the voltage limiter on the back of the cluster ?
That is a great suggestion.
My personal experience is the aluminum valve covers don't like factory heads. I tried rubber gaskets on mine, leaked. Moroso blues, leaked. Moroso blue gaskets and ton of ultra black, sealed.....
I think the factory head likes steel covers that conform?
Use the RIGHT STUFF sealer stuff is a Miracle Worker
Quote from: moparstuart on March 24, 2021, 08:40:31 PM
Use the RIGHT STUFF sealer stuff is a Miracle Worker
Heh heh heh....
I went to my local NAPA store and checked on the black fibrous valve cover gaskets. I like the Fel Pro 1612. They couldn't get them so I called Summit.
I did finally upload a video of the car running!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgOA9MQKCrE&ab_channel=GregoryKern
Here is the video I shot on the day that I brought it home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62fOW9oRiKI&ab_channel=GregoryKern
Your car looks great. They are very fun to drive they way yours is now. I have found myself dealing with Summit more and more as parts stores in my area never have anything in stock for my Mopar. I had good luck with those 1612 gaskets sealing on some aluminum valve covers on my 440.
Love the felpro fiber filled valve cover gaskets they dont crush. Have them on the Superbird and the 68 charger . That and the Right stuff have solved my leaks that were constant . :2thumbs:
Good job KD, Let the good times roll!
I had a few successes today!
The Fel Pro valve cover gaskets arrived and I put them in using The Right Stuff sealant. It looks like the leaks there are gone.
I got the speedometer working. The cable just wasn't pushed onto the speedometer "snout" quite enough.
The gas gauge works!
The ground strap on the fuel line wasn't making a good enough connection. It is now. The gauge reads just like it did when I had this cluster in Ginger....With about 4-4 1/2 gallons in the tank, the gauge reads empty. Oooof. These damn aftermarket fuel sending units! At least it works like it did before and with it reading lower than the actual amount, it serves as a warning of getting fuel well before it is needed. The other way would be a LOT worse. Who here hasn't ran out of gas in total disbelief....I KNOW that I have more gas than this!
The tachometer works now. THAT is a funny thing...
I watched over this past week at how the tach would sometimes work and most times did not. Today it was intermittent. It worked at idle sometimes but would flicker or drop to zero when I revved it up. I noticed that the ammeter flickered at amount the same rate as the tach would flicker....Related?
Yeah.
I had the wires on the coil reversed. The blue field wire from the alternator is supposed to go to coil positive. I had it on the negative.
The black with yellow tracer was on the positive.
This is why the ammeter and tach were acting the same...I had them on the negative terminal.
Now the tach works.
:coolgleamA: :2thumbs: great stuff KD , makes for interesting reading ! thanks for sharing :cheers: :popcrn:
Quote from: Kern Dog on March 27, 2021, 03:24:16 AM
I had a few successes today!
The Fel Pro valve cover gaskets arrived and I put them in using The Right Stuff sealant. It looks like the leaks there are gone.
Simple fixes, for sure.
Quote from: Kern Dog on March 27, 2021, 03:24:16 AM
Who here hasn't ran out of gas in total disbelief....I KNOW that I have more gas than this!
Only time my 70 has ever left me stranded...... a few taps revealed an empty tank.
Very nice...it has come a long way since you first picked it up!
Thank you everyone.
The oil pressure and temperature gauges are still dead. I swapped in another cluster but every gauge in it was dead. Maybe that voltage limiter was bad in the second cluster. I'm barely above novice level on electrical stuff. If I knew how to test these gauges out of the car, it sure would help!
This engine starts and runs great. I set the timing to 19 degrees initial but didn't see where it is for total timing. Months ago, I welded the slots in the distributor to the point where it should have about half of the amount of centrifugal advance as a stock unit. I've read that they had something between 26 to 28 degrees of mechanical/centrifugal advance so approximately 13-14 degrees would put my total around 33 degrees. I'm at 9.2 compression with iron heads so this should be a safe number for 91 octane.....I hope.
Use a 9 volt battery to individually test the gauges, they'll sweep as soon as you connect it. Don't leave it hooked up longer than a half second though or you can fry em
KD, at least throw some Flat black primer that beast. !! Loved watching it get back on the road. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Ha....Part of the appeal to me is that it looks fresh from a field!
Quote from: Kern Dog on April 01, 2021, 11:18:36 PM
Ha....Part of the appeal to me is that it looks fresh from a field!
I agree. It looks great as it is and is unique. Paint it black and it will look the same as any other black '70 charger out there!
Sounds great!
I pulled the cluster out and set it on the test table. The oil pressure and temp gauges in the car were dead but the faces still looked decent. I tested the gas, water and oil gauges in the other 2 clusters that I have and all 6 gauges responded to voltage. The faces on those gauges were crappy though....SO I decided to swap a few parts around.
I mixed up some JB Weld and pressed the faces on the good gauges and let them sit in the sun for a couple of hours.
Once they set up enough, I reinstalled them in the panel and put the panel back in the car.
Once I started it up, the oil pressure gauge responded immediately. The temp responded once the engine warmed up.
This car was missing a few things when I bought it. The inside was missing the radio and faceplate, the HVAC control panel, the center lower dash "pad" with the A/C vent in it and the map light. I have a faceplate but it is cracked.
I do eventually plan to put a stereo in it but for now, I'm making a radio "delete plate" for it. I've never seen a Charger with a radio delete plate.
I had a dash panel in the parts stash....it normally fits over the glove box door.
With it cut to size and fitted, I can now remove, clean and paint it.
The middle lower panel doesn't fit the dash quite right though. The column shifter nub wants to rub the edge.
I loosened the nuts that hold the column to the dash and pulled the column out a little, then tightened the nuts. Now there was room to put the center dash panel in. The shifter nub clears it now.
Quote from: Kern Dog on April 06, 2021, 02:21:55 AM.....I have a faceplate but it is cracked.....
Awesome Greg!!
Here's a "Did You Know"
The 1970 B Body had 4 screws that fasten the radio plate to the dash frame.
The 68s & 69s B Body had 3 screws to fasten the radio plate to the dash frame.
Ha...
I am humble enough to admit that I don't know much about the specific differences between the years on these cars. I've owned 3 B bodies....Two '70 Chargers and a '68 Satellite wagon. I've owned almost 30 A body cars though....I know them fairly well but am still learning all the time.
Hey...Are you ever coming back to Vegas or did you plant roots back East?
A few little nuggets:
*I started replacing the rear window trim clips. The ones along the top were replaced only because they were bent. No rust or corrosion.
The clips on the right side and bottom channel were too far gone to use, plus I patched in new metal in a few spots last year. There were 2 original clips on the left side that I replaced. I asked elsewhere about the proper positioning of the clips. "Pnora" responded with some advice...Thanks to him.
*The radio delete plate ...... is just a bullshit temporary cover just for my own amusement. The car will get a stereo with at least 6 x 9 speakers in the rear deck.
*This 3.23 Sure Grip is as loose as a retired hooker. I can't get the car to slide sideways in the dirt! It is coming out. The gear is too soft for the combination anyway. The 280/474 cam isn't huge but in a 9.2 383, I need more gear. I have a 3.91 SG that was in my red car up until 5 years ago. It made a little whine but was tight. This engine idles with almost no lope but sounds great from the exhaust. On the road, it feels a little soft from a dead stop. I may need to check if the distributor has enough advance left in it. I welded the slots last Summer but I wonder if I closed up the gap too much and took too much out in the process.
You did what....."I welded the slots last Summer but I wonder if I closed up the gap too much and took too much out in the process." :shruggy: :shruggy: :shruggy:
That was in reference to the distributor advance slots. They are rectangular but to reduce the amount of mechanical advance, you close up the rectangle hole by welding on one side to fill in the space. The advance weights then have less travel, reducing the overall amount that the breaker plate can move.
If you have an engine with a bit more cam than stock, you'll need more initial advance at idle but still want to limit the total timing to around 35 degrees. If I set a stock distributor to 18-20 degrees initial like the engine wants, at full advance I would be at 46-48 degrees! The trick of welding the slots has been done for decades but I just started doing it about 8 years ago.
The front sway bar is in. I used a 1 1/4" bar from a Chevrolet 1 ton flatbed truck.
It was modified to fit the Charger chassis.
For the full story, see THIS link:\
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,139767.msg1729744.html#msg1729744
Since the first time that I started and drove this car, it has felt sluggish. I checked all of the usual stuff....
The ignition timing is set to 19 initial, 34 total. I welded the distributor slots last Spring in anticipation of an engine with a cam bigger than stock.
The Holley 750 was rebuilt and is jetted right. It gets plenty of accelerator pump shot.
The 383 has 9.2 compression and a MP 280-474 cam. It idles with a slight lope but is not racy or radical. The 727 and 11" converter are from my red car and are working just fine.
When I put the rear axle in the car, I used a rebuilt SG and 3.23 gear. The diff is fine in a straight line but slips enough in turns to allow the inside wheel to grip while the outside wheel acts like an open diff.
I have several other 8 3/4" 3rd members in the garage so I grabbed a '489 case 3.91 gear SG chunk. I reused the gear oil since the stuff in there only had a few miles on it.
With the 3.23, the car would barely peel out in a straight line. Now it peels out quite well through first gear but hooks up when 2nd kicks in. It feels much more peppy than before.
I'm happy to report that the car brakes well and handles well. Hardly any rattles despite having no carpet or sound deadener. No rear window or door panel on the left side. It still feels pretty rough though compared to my red car, Ginger.
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Coming along great KD!!!!
:cheers: :2thumbs:
I love this thread. I just wish you you make it one color. :Twocents:
One color?
PPFFfftttt!! :nana:
Part of the fun is the dirtbaggery!
I have a shiny Charger. Having a crappy looking one is fun.
Been awHile since I stopped by. Nice work
Thank you, Sir.
My goal at first was to get the car running and driving. This was so that IF the Wife and I do get around to packing up and moving out of state, it is a lot easier to move a running car.
Why would you leave the Beautiful State of California? :scratchchin:
Ha ha....
Fires, taxes, mismanagement, the explosion of bums everywhere, high prices for everything.... :eek2:
When I replaced the front frame rails and aprons, I just put on the fenders, hood, valance and bumper/grille just to have it all together.
The LH fender that came with the car is in good shape except at the edge where it meets the door. It looks like there was some interference and the driver caved the fender edge in trying to get out of the car.
There is a stiff brace visible on the back side of the fender that allows the fender to be mounted at the cowl and the leading edge of the rocker panel. In the black fender, that brace is bent to shit.
This white fender isn't good. Yeah, it has no rust but it has dents and creases....
Those dents do pop out for the most part but easily pop back in. I'm told that this is referred to as an "oil can" condition....guys under 50 probably don't get the reference since oil has been sold in plastic bottles for at least 30 years now.
I've heard that the oil can problem can be fixed by heating the panel and then throwing a wet towel against it. This fender can be saved but I'm thinking of fixing the black one. Today I met up with a guy and bought a fender from a '68 Coronet. The brace should be the same.
Nice work Kern!
Oil canned panels are a pain doh... :slap:
Drill a 1/8 hole in the middle of the the dent and 'mig weld' it closed.
Or start a Caribbean band lol :2thumbs:
Quote from: Kern Dog on August 07, 2021, 11:08:54 PM
Those dents do pop out for the most part but easily pop back in. I'm told that this is referred to as an "oil can" condition....guys under 50 probably don't get the reference since oil has been sold in plastic bottles for at least 30 years now.
That white fender would be a fairly easy fix.
Much easier than a rusty one.
The metal has been stretched.
You need to shrink it.
You'll need:
Oxy/Acetylene torch
Hammer and dolly
Wet sponge.
There are lots of you tube videos showing how to shrink metal with a torch.
I watched a few and grabbed a piece of scrap and went to it.
It's pretty easy once you get the hang of it.
Don't waste your money on "shrinking" discs that you put on a grinder or so called "shrinking" hammers.
:Twocents:
besides the stretched metal & heat shrinking sometimes the problem can be as simple as the dent is pulled out but it remains high metal all around the outside of the dent, if you pull it with a stud gun, hold the stud gun puller out as you slowly nock down the high spots around the dent with a body hammer, sometimes this can prevent the oil canning. if this has already been done & you still have the problem, then you'll have to go to the other alternatives mention. I worked at one body shop that had a heat shrinker gun that worked great. LEON.
Thanks, guys. :2thumbs:
When I bought the car, I got a signed title in the name of a person other than the guy that sold it to me. This happens all the time, no big deal.
Today I went to transfer the title. Here in CA, as odd as it sounds, our DMV actually seems to work pretty well. Most transactions are easy.
First though, the title had the prior owners signature but I thought I should get a legit bill of sale from her. I went to the address on the title. It turns out that she had passed away 5 years ago but I did get a copy of the death certificate.
At DMV, they found that the car was listed as a SALVAGE and to bring it back, I'll need 3 things: A VIN verification by a Peace Officer or DMV official, a brake & lamp inspection and some money.
I'm going to need a trailer!
I did take the car out to the nearby lake to get some cool pictures though....
Quote from: aerolith on August 08, 2021, 07:28:00 AM
Nice work Kern!
Oil canned panels are a pain doh... :slap:
Drill a 1/8 hole in the middle of the the dent and 'mig weld' it closed.
Or start a Caribbean band lol :2thumbs:
What is this pan this letters on it used for ?
At first, I thought it was a sequence for where to hammer out a dent. Now I am not so sure.
That's a Caribbean Steel Drum, musical instrument. Youtube the instrument and you'll recognize the sounds from various tropical-type songs.
Thank you. It was way out of my scope of knowledge.
Yeah, I know that seems like a loaded admission!
Quote from: richf on October 26, 2021, 08:04:10 PM
That's a Caribbean Steel Drum, musical instrument. Youtube the instrument and you'll recognize the sounds from various tropical-type songs.
Okay, What does it have to do with our Chargers ?
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 26, 2021, 05:05:17 PM
When I bought the car, I got a signed title in the name of a person other than the guy that sold it to me. This happens all the time, no big deal.
Today I went to transfer the title. Here in CA, as odd as it sounds, our DMV actually seems to work pretty well. Most transactions are easy.
First though, the title had the prior owners signature but I thought I should get a legit bill of sale from her. I went to the address on the title. It turns out that she had passed away 5 years ago but I did get a copy of the death certificate.
At DMV, they found that the car was listed as a SALVAGE and to bring it back, I'll need 3 things: A VIN verification by a Peace Officer or DMV official, a brake & lamp inspection and some money.
I'm going to need a trailer!
I did take the car out to the nearby lake to get some cool pictures though....
I would have thought getting a persons(who's not kin) death certificate would be difficult? :shruggy:
The lady at the address listed on the title was the mother of the deceased. She had copies and offered one to me. Lucky me!
Always always always think it is best to get paperwork straightened out before do anything on a new project car
What would happen if you fix it all up then find out there is an old lien against the title for $10 000 ??
At that point you would know why last guy sold it ;)
Thanks. I do agree for the most part.
The guy that I bought it from is a guy that I have known for 11 years. I still talk to him to this day.
I can't believe that it has been so long since the last update.
I've made some progress and am getting close to having it registered and insured to legally drive on the street. I put a horn in it, got the wipers working, fixed the license plate light and installed seat belts.
There are no immediate plans to paint it but I wanted to get the bolt on parts looking better.
The drivers door had a hard kink in it along the edge. From what I could tell, the driver must have hit something and in doing so, both fenders were pushed back. The driver must have forced the door open, bending both the door and fender. I suspect that this black fender was on the car at that time.
First up was to replace the door. Oddly, the orange door closed okay.
Boom.
Sometime in the past, the lower hinge was replaced.
The car has led a rough life.
Have you seen cars on the road with different colored fenders and doors that are also bent? You know.....someone wrecks the car, replaces parts and then wrecks again?
Yeah....it happened to this car just like that.
It came with a maroon RH fender that was not on the car when it was last wrecked BUT this twisted valance was.
Going way back to 2019, I did straighten it out some...
A helpful guy on the 1970ChargerRegistry sent me a cutoff section of a valance he had that was damaged on the opposite side.
.....AND just because I wanted to see if I could do it, I merged the two.
Back to 2023.
I had three doors up the hill. This green one was the best of the three but someone ripped the handle off, requiring some repair.
The panel gaps look good.
With the door off, I was able to see some cracks in the jamb where the striker is mounted.
How do you guys restore cars without a welder? How the hell did I used to do it?
The blackish door is in much better shape than the white one aside from the kink at the edge.
A little hammer and dolly work.....
The panel gaps need improvement. I'd need to slot/oval some mounting holes to move the fender rearward.
The door needs to come up a little.
The fender still needs to come out a little in the middle.
In the past, when I have had panels that had larger than ideal gaps, I tacked on welding rod on the edge.
The fender sure meets up with the valance better. Overall, it will take a lot less work to look right compared to the white fender.
The car is FK5 originally, Burnt Orange metallic.
Currently, the trunklid and back half carry the most of the original paint.
Maroon fender, green hood, green LH door, orange and green valance and a green LH fender with crappy spray bomb black over it...
:cheers: Looking great, thank you for the updated pics! :2thumbs:
Great progress , lookin great !!!!!!! :coolgleamA:
Paint it all flat black, if you can't afford a paint job. :Twocents:
Thanks, guys.
I can afford to paint it but I don't want to. I have a shiny one. I like having an ugly one too. No stress over dirt or scratches.
I will not drive the car in "Primer" either. It just isn't what I like to do,
Once I start final bodywork on it, the car will be apart. When my red car was ratty, I got all sorts of people wanting to stop and talk about it. Ratty cars that run strong attract my kind of car guys.....the ones that actually work on their cars instead of the guys that take their cars to a shop to get new wiper blades.
Very cool! A driver in the best sense.
Kern Dog, don't get mad, but it looks really tacky having 4-5 different colors on a car. Peace
Quote from: ACUDANUT on January 27, 2023, 02:01:32 PM
Kern Dog, don't get mad, but it looks really tacky having 4-5 different colors on a car. Peace
Ha...That is the point. I
want it to look like something that was pulled out of a junkyard and thrown together back in the 80s.
Considering what complete POS cars are going for at auction these days, having a car that looks honest and perhaps...somewhat familiar is kind-of neat. Really takes me back, which I like.
$5000 doesn't buy this anymore...
(http://i.imgur.com/EvJCkX9h.jpg) (https://imgur.com/EvJCkX9)
Working from home and it's colder than ?$#! today, with even colder coming. Winter can really suck here sometimes.
Winter is a pisser.
It isn't that cold here but it sure isn't like how it is in the Spring. Man, THAT is my favorite time of the year.
:2thumbs:
KD: 6 degrees above here today and you can't differentiate from the horizon or the snow on the ground. Unusual here (normally blue sky).
Your comment on Spring rings true here for me too. In Pennsylvania (where I came of age) many rural roads have a canopy of deciduous trees closing in on them. In May, the greenery is fresh light-green and bright(!) and is quite enchanting (after a long, dark, and cold winter which is then usually followed by a very wet early Spring). But....in May, when the sun comes out and the flowers start to pop everywhere, then it's time to drag the cover off of your car, check the fluids, add some air to the tires, wipe off the dust, and dump a cup of gas in the carb. You climb in, drop all your windows, light the engine and head out for a tour of things. That is indeed magical!
(http://i.imgur.com/Ux6GVKFh.jpg) (https://imgur.com/Ux6GVKF)
Sadly, not much deciduous action here in Colorado...
Those are big words, man. :eek2:
KD: I have a big mouth and they slip right out (i.e., Big Time by Peter Gabriel).
I remember that video...creepy! They used stop action animation which makes the video look notchy and choppy.
Back on point....
As a kid, I always loved the Summer. We had a boat and Dad would pack us all up for a day at the lake. At home, we often had a pool and got to swim from May to October if we wanted.
As I grew up and joined the work force, I still liked Summer for the long days. I was a house framer for most of my career and loved it. Working outdoors was a great fit for me. The smells of wood and concrete were a daily thing and I enjoyed it.
After the housing market tanked in 2007, the company I worked for lost their construction contracts with a few home builders. We had to adapt and ended up switching to commercial work. This meant boots, pants, shirts and hardhats all the time. In residential housing, we could wear shorts, gym shoes, sometimes shirtless and no hats unless we wanted the shade. Working for years in shorts made it difficult to me to adapt to wearing more clothes. I suddenly felt more restricted, more bogged down and of course, hotter and uncomfortable. Summers now meant I'd be a sweaty, stinky mess at the end of the workday. SPRING was still great though. Longer daylight hours, warmer weather and the Winter was in the rearview mirror.
The last 10 years or so, Spring has represented the end of the cold weather and the start of better times. I feel alive, motivated and inspired when February comes and the daytime highs are consistently over 65 degrees.
looking good :2thumbs: :coolgleamA: :cheers: :popcrn:
The build is coming along nicely. Great work!
I'm with you on not painting it but I think it needs some brand new flashy wheels. Something about ratty paint but fresh rims always looks good to me.
Thanks.
The tires are old! I will need to buy something before taking it very far from home.
It has been awhile since I updated this thread.
In April, I brought Jigsaw to an indoor car shown at Cal Expo in Sacramento along with my red car. The display was a "Before and after" sort of thing. I was amazed at the positive responses I got with Jigsaw. That car got more attention than the finished car.
It overheated on the freeway on the way to the venue. I never figured out what exactly was the cause. It may have been something as simple as a radiator half full. It always ran normal around the neighborhood. I ended up changing to a different radiator, added a shroud and topped off the coolant. No problems since but I still intend to do a "torture test" of freeway driving in summer heat.