Is 70 999 corporate blue EXACTLY the same as 72-73 B3 blue? Has anybody actually compared the two?
Sorry guys, not a direct wing car question but I'm about to paint the Superbird and put this question under paint and restoration for 3 days with no response, so thought it better to put in Aero as I'm sure there may be some who could answer my question.
I can answer your question accurately, later today, if you can wait a little longer...
I'll post a few pics, too.
i dont think they are the same :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :shruggy:
Quote from: rickroadrunner on December 12, 2013, 02:03:45 AM
Is 70 999 corporate blue EXACTLY the same as 72-73 B3 blue? Has anybody actually compared the two?
Hi Rick--
No they're not. If you look at the old color charts they're a different formula number. The problem is that the old formulas don't directly translate to the new paint bases and tints...is there anywhere on the car you can have someone do a custom scan and mix of the color that's on your car? It really would be best to match what's on the car.
Hate to high jack but does some one know the formula for FM3 ?
Quote from: 41husk on December 12, 2013, 01:00:56 PM
Hate to high jack but does some one know the formula for FM3 ?
Maybe this site has formula info on FM3
http://www.pantherpink.com/paint.htm
Thanks very helpfull :2thumbs: :cheers:
Maybe this helps - maybe it adds confusion:
There was a part of the #88 Engineering Daytona that was untouched and never saw any daylight since 1969.
The car was B5 outside and painted "Corporate Blue", as they called it, prior to the first Talladega race. To me, I'd call it
Petty Blue, since on the aerowarrior site there is a short film showing the car qualifying and it's next to Petty's Ford.
The cars look exactly the same, no question. You can see for yourself!
Anyway, behind the master cylinder I found the color you see below. I happened to have a touch up can of Chrysler Parts paint,
part number 3621504, coded "72-73 TB3" and named Super Blue.
It is a perfect match for what was on the firewall. Like I said - this may enlighten or confuse. I'm just stating what I found and the color was laid down in August, 1969. I'll match the color of the Chrysler Paint can cap when I paint it.
Interesting that your color matches...I find B3 to be "brighter" than Corporation Blue.
Does anyone have access to the old PPG formulas? Corporation Blue is listed as formula #12785 while 1972 B3 is 2423. Both are on the '72 PPG chart:
http://www.tcpglobal.com/aclchip.aspx?image=1972-Plymouth-pg01.jpg (http://www.tcpglobal.com/aclchip.aspx?image=1972-Plymouth-pg01.jpg)
That number for Corp. Blue shows back into the mid 60's, which WOULD make sense as TB3 (since the "T" would denote 1963) but I can't reconcile the two different formula numbers. IF that was the case with the "T," it would make sense that the formula for black would also be unchanged, but it did in 1965/1966.
I have a call in to Jim at TCP Global and I'm hoping to hear from him tomorrow.
Need to look at the tints of the old formulas to determine the difference.
Thanks for your input, I did a color match against a Glasurit color before the car was stripped and had it made up. When the paint company returned the paint they did not return the color sample. I have the paint but will not apply until I am 100% certain it is correct. I am chasing up the original sample to double check.
Meanwhile my painter made up some B3 Basin Street/Super Blue which many people seemed to say it was the same. We found the B3 was lighter, so hence the question as I did not know if the paint supply company made an error in the formulation of the paint.
We also made up some Corporate/Fleet blue today which is different again!
Pettybird, I may have to post you a color sample to check against your car before painting! may do this anyway as a triple check. Thanks.
Good plan to send Petty Bird a spray out sample using your paint.
Quote from: Aero426 on December 13, 2013, 10:03:34 AM
Good plan to send Petty Bird a spray out sample using your paint.
Yep--actually sending me the different spray outs so I can compare to the bottom of my decklid would get you the closest. I know it's airmail and all but it would be the surest way to match.
I still many of my original petty parts with color still left on them. Doors, fenders, I even think door hinges maybe, Its kinda a flat blue.
Has anyone just sent Petty Garage a request for the paint code? I'm sure they'd be willing to help out when it involves a Superbird.
Quote from: Aero426 on December 12, 2013, 07:51:22 PM
Need to look at the tints of the old formulas to determine the difference.
Didn't get a call back but I should have access to the PPG online tint formula page by Tuesday.
Quote from: stroker400 wedge on December 14, 2013, 05:17:43 AM
Has anyone just sent Petty Garage a request for the paint code? I'm sure they'd be willing to help out when it involves a Superbird.
Corporation Blue isn't really Petty Blue. It is just commonly called that because it is similar.
If you want to stir up a lively discussion, ask model builders exactly what the correct shade of Petty Blue is. There are different variations over time.
wow. well im so glad I have parts with the original color still on them now. Getting a color match to THAT shade should be the ticket for me.
Quote from: DoubleDlover on December 15, 2013, 03:10:11 AM
wow. well im so glad I have parts with the original color still on them now. Getting a color match to THAT shade should be the ticket for me.
Exactly what I'm doing.... :2thumbs:
I can just say it's painted the same color it was originally! Can't get better than that...
Is the Chrysler Petty Blue the same as the blue Petty used on the racecars?
Quote from: Ghoste on December 15, 2013, 10:02:36 AM
Is the Chrysler Petty Blue the same as the blue Petty used on the racecars?
Yes. Richard "leased" the paint to Chrysler and collected a royalty payment on it.
Really? Never heard that one before. So another question, did Petty Blue remain the same on the racecars throughout the years or did that change?
Quote from: Ghoste on December 15, 2013, 02:38:52 PM
Really? Never heard that one before. Somanother question, did Petty Blue remain the same on the racecars throughout the years or did that change?
Read it in an interview with Richard. He collected checks in every possible way from Chrysler.
Same color thru the years - it's in another interview with Richard on espn.com that he used the same blue all years, only change was after 1972 when STP Red was added to the scheme.
If you're looking for Petty Blue look at corporate/fleet colors and look for Petty enterprises or Racing. That's what I did for my Clone
So the PPG site is awful but they're under the impression that the colors are the same...notice the top line where you'll find both TB3 and 12785 are listed. Don't know if this means conclusively that they're the same or if there's some laziness going on with regards to being 'close enough.'
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7369/11404226504_eb5e2c6bc2_b.jpg)
There is a Chrysler TSB in 1966 referencing a 999 code Petty Blue special ordered as PPG 12783. I am curious as to how that differs.
Remember the site sucking? The 12783 formula isn't available in Deltron, so here are the two formulas in Delstar with TB3 first. This would be a lot easier to read if we knew how far apart DMR411 was from DMR410.
The autocolorlibrary.com sheet for 1966 doesn't show Corporation Blue on it so I can't tell if it was a companywide thing or not for that year.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7339/11405116744_6583d7faeb_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3729/11405104156_aea7f6d0c1_b.jpg)
Interesting all of these blues!. We mixed B3 and a later Chrysler Corporate Blue and they were different. The 999 blue is different also.
We should have a new Glasurit color chip shortly to match the color we have mixed.
I guess if you are building a clone, you would probably paint it the closest to original Petty blue and not bother with trying to duplicate the original 999 blue.
How many would know anyway?
Quote from: Ghoste on December 17, 2013, 08:25:25 AM
How many would know anyway?
Probably no one, but I'm not sure that's the point...it should be right on a car so rare. If it's done wrong then that stuff just becomes "fact" after a while, and that drives me nuts.
I talked to Jimmy Chips at TCP Global (he's their vintage paint guy) who told me that the 12785 and 2423 color codes are definitely different. I told him that I thought so, and that Corporation blue seemed to be "whiter," and he said that sounded right by looking at the formulas. He said that the online guide I had was the software for their newer paint mixing stations, and that most of the older colors were simply close enough...they work a lot harder on the newer formulas. On the old hard copies the formulas are what they should be.
I know this helps you very little since we're talking about two different manufacturers' products, but PPG was the original supplier and they have the cards going back to the good ol' days. It really would be best to send what you have and see how well it matches up with my car, double d's, Steve Fox's or Tim Welborn's cars.
Oh I agree 100%, I was only speaking to building a clone.
Quote from: pettybird on December 17, 2013, 11:36:48 AM
I talked to Jimmy Chips at TCP Global (he's their vintage paint guy)
A paint guy named Jimmy Chips? That's a great name for the job!
It would seem like the 783 has more black in it, and inherently would be a darker or deeper blue. I can also tell you from basic art school stuff, that the Petty color has to have some yellow in it (perhaps the original blue paint that Richard Petty had - shared a little yellow) - so I'm inclined to say the 785 is the likelier culprit *** BUT THAT'S JUST MY OPINION FROM USING THE CRAYONS THE THERAPIST LETS ME PLAY WITH WHEN THEY TAKE MY STRAIGHT JACKET OFF.
Quote from: pettybird on December 16, 2013, 12:10:18 PM
Remember the site sucking? The 12783 formula isn't available in Deltron, so here are the two formulas in Delstar with TB3 first. This would be a lot easier to read if we knew how far apart DMR411 was from DMR410.
The autocolorlibrary.com sheet for 1966 doesn't show Corporation Blue on it so I can't tell if it was a companywide thing or not for that year.
Heres a pic of one of my fender scoops. I think being color that's underneath and all the way to the front would make the color pretty close and not sun faded. I took the pic In the house under a lamp. So I don't think the color in the pic is showing the true color here. But you get the idea. r
Yeah - looks like Corporate Blue in that lighting! :lol:
Lighting is HUGE when it comes to photos and the camera, and film, in the old days is a big factor.
As I mentioned way above - there is a video on aerowarriors.com showing the 88 Daytona next to Pettys Ford in 69 at Talladega. "Perfect match" :Twocents:
Both in the same lighting, camera and film... no guesswork!
Interesting site is www.pantherpink.com and it also has a list of the color mixes I do believe. Take a look at the panther pink mopars
:Twocents: 69 AMX SS car also used a #12785 Petty blue type color
http://classicrecollections.com/2012/07/02/feature-1969-amc-amx/
If this is a true 999 car this petty blue shade looks light :Twocents:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/10456_album/scrapbird.jpg
I looked at my paint. It is the 12783 and is under Petty Richard (racing).
Quote from: nascarxx29 on December 18, 2013, 01:47:28 PM
If this is a true 999 car this petty blue shade looks light :Twocents:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/10456_album/scrapbird.jpg
it REALLY gets chalky when it oxidizes
IMO - from what I have seen over the years, "real' Corp. Blue appears a bit darker then the usual color called Petty Blue.
Also - I have seen the two colors interchanged as one another. And to toss this into the mix (pun intended) just like anything else, the formula numbers on paint
can come out different on different machines and the company you are using.
There are a lot of variables.
Personally, I'd match a color to a known sample you want to duplicate and stay away from the "Paint by Number" route. :Twocents:
I imagine there would even be some difference detectable on the same color painted a couple of years apart from the factory (eg. a blue shot in 68 could be visibly off from one done in 70) ?
I'd agree. Look at very early Petty Plymouths compared to later ones in the 60s.
Of course, you are at the mercy of the film, camera, exposure setting, etc..... :brickwall:
Yes, and acutally I was just talking about the factory cars if you stood two survivors side by side today but even then you coudln't be sure. Maybe one was out in the sun more or whatever.
Or built at different plants...
I have sprayed some paint samples, would you guys who have original 999 corporate blue cars mind PM me with your address and I will post over a sample card to check against some original paint.
Thanks
Quote from: rickroadrunner on December 23, 2013, 05:41:30 AM
I have sprayed some paint samples, would you guys who have original 999 corporate blue cars mind PM me with your address and I will post over a sample card to check against some original paint.
Thanks
I sent you mine. I'm sure that doubled and I can get together and mail them after we're done with them to see how they compare to each others' cars, too. Once the letter is in the states it'll cost us like a dollar to send it around ;)
This is the same information I got. >> PPG Brand Code 2423 : dt8221, ay69tb3, tar1b3, ay1tb3 "corporation blue"
I talked to a paint guy at PPG in Pittsburgh (my son did an internship at PPG and is a chemical engineer himself) and the guy said (paraphrased)...
"paint has two elements to it - visibility factor and chemical mix factor - you can routinely find different mix factors that are indistinguishable to the naked eye from a visibility standpoint - and we have naked eye simulators to test it. The mixes change more often than you think due to cost factors for tints OR due to changes in painting technology. We now may be able to add an additive to keep colors from fading, where in the past we had to do a paint mix to accomplish the same thing. Also old paint oxidizes, so the person who has an unrestored car doesn't have accurate paint. You would need to find a sealed sample of actual paint to do a true color match. On a car, you need a surface that has never been exposed to sunlight and kept in a low humidity/very dry area with no airflow - maybe an original pre-painted boxed part. Otherwide, don't sweat the mix - you can't tell the difference, and the guy who says he can is probably just annoying."
Thats what I've always thought about color as well. Being able to tell the shades with the naked eye like that is just not possible.
Well, I'll tell you what: I'll be that annoying guy all day long.
I got the samples from Rick, and I compared them to a part of the car that's never seen sunlight, etc...the trunk striker. He sent two samples: One is a by-the-book TB3, and the other was supposedly mixed to match his car. The TB3 is, in my hands, way off. It's a true(r) blue, where the sample from his car and my striker are both 'yellower.' my part is a touch yellower-er yet, but we're talking degrees of shade rather than colors.
I tried to photograph the pieces, but digital cameras do a GREAT job of artificially evening out colors. I have my DSLR here, and I could shoot in RAW, but I don't know if that would help, either. Rainbow or oddics, if you want me to mail 'em on I can do that, and I can mail the striker, too. From what I see there's no way I'd be happy with the TB3 sample I have. It would also be interesting to see how the TB3 spray out compares to the vintage TB3 touch up paint.
Also, Rick: How is that sample paint against your original parts? Meaning, does the custom color EXACTLY match your car?
For my own part, I meant the guy who can look at a car with no other reference and say its off. If you put each of those samples in a room by itself and then look at them that way, can you go somewhere and relate which room had which shade?
Quote from: Ghoste on January 06, 2014, 12:37:49 PM
For my own part, I meant the guy who can look at a car with no other reference and say its off. If you put each of those samples in a room by itself and then look at them that way, can you go somewhere and relate which room had which shade?
the way these colors are, I think I can.
Also, I'm a bit of a prima donna, so I'll SAY I can anyway ;)
Doug, can you adjust the white balance on your camera? I do it on mine all the time when I am photographing rare colors on cars. And when you bring it up on a computer it is a dead match to what you actually saw.
Quote from: pettybird on January 06, 2014, 11:35:39 AM
Well, I'll tell you what: I'll be that annoying guy all day long.
I got the samples from Rick, and I compared them to a part of the car that's never seen sunlight, etc...the trunk striker. He sent two samples: One is a by-the-book TB3, and the other was supposedly mixed to match his car. The TB3 is, in my hands, way off. It's a true(r) blue, where the sample from his car and my striker are both 'yellower.' my part is a touch yellower-er yet, but we're talking degrees of shade rather than colors.
I tried to photograph the pieces, but digital cameras do a GREAT job of artificially evening out colors. I have my DSLR here, and I could shoot in RAW, but I don't know if that would help, either. Rainbow or oddics, if you want me to mail 'em on I can do that, and I can mail the striker, too. From what I see there's no way I'd be happy with the TB3 sample I have. It would also be interesting to see how the TB3 spray out compares to the vintage TB3 touch up paint.
Also, Rick: How is that sample paint against your original parts? Meaning, does the custom color EXACTLY match your car?
PM sent!
Quote from: pettybird on January 06, 2014, 12:55:08 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on January 06, 2014, 12:37:49 PM
For my own part, I meant the guy who can look at a car with no other reference and say its off. If you put each of those samples in a room by itself and then look at them that way, can you go somewhere and relate which room had which shade?
the way these colors are, I think I can.
Also, I'm a bit of a prima donna, so I'll SAY I can anyway ;)
Fair enough. :lol: :cheers:
Quote from: 69_500 on January 06, 2014, 01:03:03 PM
Doug, can you adjust the white balance on your camera? I do it on mine all the time when I am photographing rare colors on cars. And when you bring it up on a computer it is a dead match to what you actually saw.
you're WAY more of a camera guy than I am...would that help differentiate the SHADES of blue next to each other?
Quote from: DoubleDlover on December 18, 2013, 04:58:51 AM
Heres a pic of one of my fender scoops. I think being color that's underneath and all the way to the front would make the color pretty close and not sun faded. I took the pic In the house under a lamp. So I don't think the color in the pic is showing the true color here. But you get the idea. r
Here's my scoop - (from a color match batch) - its hard to tell from these kinds of photos - but it looks dang close to that underside picture.
Quote from: rainbow4jd on January 23, 2014, 08:56:55 PM
Quote from: DoubleDlover on December 18, 2013, 04:58:51 AM
Heres a pic of one of my fender scoops. I think being color that's underneath and all the way to the front would make the color pretty close and not sun faded. I took the pic In the house under a lamp. So I don't think the color in the pic is showing the true color here. But you get the idea. r
Here's my scoop - (from a color match batch) - its hard to tell from these kinds of photos - but it looks dang close to that underside picture.
And reposting DoubleDlovers picture to compare
Quote from: pettybird on January 06, 2014, 03:11:08 PM
Quote from: 69_500 on January 06, 2014, 01:03:03 PM
Doug, can you adjust the white balance on your camera? I do it on mine all the time when I am photographing rare colors on cars. And when you bring it up on a computer it is a dead match to what you actually saw.
you're WAY more of a camera guy than I am...would that help differentiate the SHADES of blue next to each other?
Doug sorry missed this weeks ago, but yes if you adjust the white balance to a true white and photograph things it's easy to differentiate the shades of colors. As long as both objects were photographed with the white balance being set properly.
Quote from: rainbow4jd on January 05, 2014, 02:58:11 PM
This is the same information I got. >> PPG Brand Code 2423 : dt8221, ay69tb3, tar1b3, ay1tb3 "corporation blue"
I talked to a paint guy at PPG in Pittsburgh (my son did an internship at PPG and is a chemical engineer himself) and the guy said (paraphrased)...
"paint has two elements to it - visibility factor and chemical mix factor - you can routinely find different mix factors that are indistinguishable to the naked eye from a visibility standpoint - and we have naked eye simulators to test it. The mixes change more often than you think due to cost factors for tints OR due to changes in painting technology. We now may be able to add an additive to keep colors from fading, where in the past we had to do a paint mix to accomplish the same thing. Also old paint oxidizes, so the person who has an unrestored car doesn't have accurate paint. You would need to find a sealed sample of actual paint to do a true color match. On a car, you need a surface that has never been exposed to sunlight and kept in a low humidity/very dry area with no airflow - maybe an original pre-painted boxed part. Otherwide, don't sweat the mix - you can't tell the difference, and the guy who says he can is probably just annoying."
As a follow up to my own post - my color match did NOT come out exactly as the paint guide. Everything was the same - but it had less of the bright blue 1675 parts versus the 1926 parts. You can see the picture on my fender scoop above (and the comparison with the original by DoubleDlover).