I have imported a Superbird to Switzerland. I tried to get the car inspected but the DMV does not accept the wing due to safety reasons (pedestrian could be decapitated etc...).
But there is a solution for this problem:
(1) fix the wing with plastic screws/nuts to the car
(2) get a test from a DMV-approved place to show that the wing falls off in case a power of 280 Newton is applied
(3) secure the wing with metal wires that it does not fall on the street in case it is ripped off
(4) the whole testing will cost me appr. U$ 2500 - 3000
Since I have to present an exact drawing of the wing to the DMV here my questions:
(1) has anyone a drawing with measurements of the original Superbird wing?
(2) has anyone had these problems before?
Help appreciated! Thank you, Karl
Ps. this is not a joke!
Why don't you remove the wing, get the car registered then put the wing back on? I have never herd of anyone being decapitated by the wing. I know the race cars had to have the top of the wing secured with a cable :shruggy:
The wing is a humane device, ending pain and suffering inflicted by the rest of the car. :brickwall:
That sucks . . . alot of money just to test the wing. :shruggy:
Maybe Doug will have something. Let them know that that wing is engineered to withstand winds of up to 200mph !!!! Nothing is going to knock that wing off unless it's an accident. And even with that being said, one would have more problems to deal with than a wing falling off. Does the DMV think it's an aftermarket part? I believe there are more Superbirds in Switzerland.
I know this doesn't help you, but maybe someone will chime in...
Good luck...
Wow! Those Pedestrian Protection Standards are pretty serious in Europe... their the ones who started the whole ball rolling on them. Seems pretty silly your having that problem but the Bureaucrats gotta look like they're doing something.
If they could teach people not to walk out in front of traffic they'd be all set.
Tell them the car has no reverse gear....
Like mentioned, if it's because they believe it's an aftermarket item, maybe they simply need to see factory literature showing it's original. I also like the idea of removing it for inspection & reinstalling it later. It is a bolt on part & the holes could be plugged temporarily with removable caps.
http://www.componentforce.co.uk/category/83/panel-plugs
Thank you for your support. But I assure you they do not think it is an aftermarket wing. I showed them the original dealer brochure, I showed them magazines from 1970, I showed them even the Moriarty book "SUPERCARS: ...". No, it is due to the regulations. A friend of mine could not even register his original 1971 Hemi Challenger with the small wing (marked in his broadcast sheet), he had to remove it.
Yes, I can get the car registered without the wing, but if I would install the wing after registering the car, the police would stop me very soon. In general they do not like wings/spoilers, the japanese cars (Evo etc.) which have them, went through the same process, the difference is, that a big car company paid for the testing/approval and plastic screws... No, there are no officially registered Superbirds in Switzerland.
Any factory drawing of the wing available?
WOW, and I thought New Zealand registration rules were tuff! :o
Quote from: swissmopar on March 22, 2011, 12:43:28 PM
I have imported a Superbird to Switzerland. I tried to get the car inspected but the DMV does not accept the wing due to safety reasons (pedestrian could be decapitated etc...).
But there is a solution for this problem:
(1) fix the wing with plastic screws/nuts to the car
(2) get a test from a DMV-approved place to show that the wing falls off in case a power of 280 Newton is applied
(3) secure the wing with metal wires that it does not fall on the street in case it is ripped off
(4) the whole testing will cost me appr. U$ 2500 - 3000
Since I have to present an exact drawing of the wing to the DMV here my questions:
(1) has anyone a drawing with measurements of the original Superbird wing?
(2) has anyone had these problems before?
Help appreciated! Thank you, Karl
Ps. this is not a joke!
Can point 3 be used? I'm sure I've seen wing securing cables in pics?
What good is a plastic screw going to do anyways? I'm just curious. If they are going to inspect they car just simply pop the trunk for them and let them see the trunk bracing system that already holds the wing in place. There is no logical way they could look at that and not feel safer about the wing than a few plastic screws that they are requesting.
Quote from: 69_500 on March 22, 2011, 03:39:44 PM
What good is a plastic screw going to do anyways? I'm just curious. If they are going to inspect they car just simply pop the trunk for them and let them see the trunk bracing system that already holds the wing in place. There is no logical way they could look at that and not feel safer about the wing than a few plastic screws that they are requesting.
There seems to be a misunderstanding. They do not doubt that the wing is in its original installation safe. It is too safe. The wing has to fall off e.g. a pedestrians hits the wing (max. power allowed is 280 Newton - over this the wing has to fall off)!
Honestly, unless you are going in reverse, someone will have to be scooped up by the nose (which in their mind probably cut off their legs), smash into and go over the windshield, clear the roof, roll down the back glass, just so happen to roll up on the torso (since the legs are now dismembered) and then get decapitated. Speed in order to accomplish this amazing once in a life time feat........ probably an excess of 200 mph! :nana:
And here I thought the BS we went through for our cars in the USA was a lot!
Perhaps they would accept a properly placed warning placard:
how about a fiberglass wing?
I wouldn't want to weaken the factory part, OR expect it to deflect properly, even with alternate fasteners. I would feel a lot safer with a fiberglass wing doing the same, though. You may even get someone to make you an ultralight version which you could install with plastic bolts. the factory wing is so heavy I doubt it would be safe at all with improper bolts.
You could quite easily run a cable through the fiberglass wing to keep it together, as well.
What worries me most is the testing--if it DOES break, great, but if it gives first it could dent your quarter panels!
Also, do they care about the uprights, or just the center section? That would make a huge difference. It would be easier to make the center section out of fiberglass and make it break away.
I think for testing, the steel support structure could be replicated. It is sufficiently substantial that deflection of the wing attachment points could be ruled out.
Ref: 280 newton is around 63 pounds.
It would be difficult to secure an original wing casting safely and still meet the separation/retention requirements. So as Pettybird
suggested, a replica wing will almost certainly be required.
Now how 'bout some engineering drawings!
I think this is some of the stupidest sheet I've ever heard. :RantExplode:
If I understand this correctly, they either want the wing to be able to easily shear off or be incapable of coming off at all and both extremes are to prevent pedestrian decapitation??
It has to yield below a specific impact energy level, but also (once separated) must not present a debris hazard.
move
I would be demanding a second DMV opinion. Even for them to allow for historical vehicle reasons etc??
There is a lot of engineering data available on the Winged Warriors website.
http://www.aerowarriors.com/cda.html
(no wing drawings that I could find)
That sucks you will have to send the superbird to me :icon_smile_big:. I have never seen demensions on the superbird wing I have looked all over the internet any body else have them? I have some demensions on the daytona wing that I had found somewhere but that will not help.
the Nascar wings (which I have on my car) had only 3 mounting studs on the vertical supports and in place of the 4th stud, there was a cable that ran up one support, then across the horizontal wing, then down the other side support and connected at the bottom of each wing brace in the trunk.
At the top of the vertical pieces on the outside next to the wing bolt, it was hogged out to make the cable turn to go through the wing. I filled mine in
(I also should have taken pics, but I didn't)
When I registered my car in here Finland, I have lot of pictures and fackts to my car. Wing is big broblem, but much bigger is front bumber, in here, in the car must be front bumber? Then I show partnumberlist, where reads the little black rubber is bumber. :icon_smile_question:
Also I must take red side lights off, orange front side lights can be there.
I get the car to registeration :2thumbs:
Quote from: daveco on March 22, 2011, 05:22:23 PM
It has to yield below a specific impact energy level, but also (once separated) must not present a debris hazard.
In that sentence, they contradict themselves right there! It has to yield (break away) but also not present a debris hazard. If something breaks away, it is now presenting a debris hazard.
that's why the mandated cable in Nascar....to keep all pieces from flying away
I think it would be easier to convince the DMV that with it's current configuration it's not a present hazard.
Seriously, under what scenario can someone get hit by the wing when attached to the car?
Wouldn't they hit the sides or the back of the car and not the wing??
I don't believe it sticks out past the end of the car, right?
How about attaching brightly colored flags on the beam running across , sort of like we do here when something is sticking out too far from a vehicle.
That way people see it and can avoid hitting it ( if such a scenario exists). Kinda like a warning sign.
Better still ask that they provide at least 1 incident where a pedestrian has been injured or decapitated by a wing on a Superbird in over 40 years. I bet they have NONE
Quote from: 451-74Charger on March 23, 2011, 11:53:49 AM
Better still ask that they provide at least 1 incident where a pedestrian has been injured or decapitated by a wing on a Superbird in over 40 years. I bet they have NONE
Thank you for your moral support but this will not solve my problems. The Swiss DMV/government sets up the regulations and any wing which is more then 8cm=3.2inch above the metal has to fullfill the above mentioned rules. As I said earlier they do not care if it is an original factory correct item on a very original Superbird - rules are rules ... they do not discuss with me, they just want to have their rules fullfilled. At least they accept the nose as a sort of bumper (see Finland - mentioned in an earlier post). Next week I have an appointment with the test center I will give a follow-up.
Quote from: WINGIN IT on March 23, 2011, 07:27:41 AM
Seriously, under what scenario can someone get hit by the wing when attached to the car?
Wouldn't they hit the sides or the back of the car and not the wing??
I don't believe it sticks out past the end of the car, right?
My thoughts exactly since reading this thread. If a pedestrian is in a position where they will get hit with the wing, then they've got to be walking ON the car or something :smilielol: :slap: It's just an impossible scenario. Ridiculous.
Ok, hypothetical question..... if you go for the test and something gets damaged on your car, are THEY going to pay to have it fixed or replaced????????
Sorry to hear of you dilemma Karl, and I hope my humor is understood as it is intended. I certainly to not wish to contribute to the aggravation.
I work in aviation, building specialized equipment mounts for helicopters. "Pull Tests" (as we call them) are a regular thing and can go smoothly or miserably, not due to technical facts, but instead depending on the personality of the designated inspector. :flame:
I'm sure the testing center will be able to share a lot of horror stories :RantExplode:
From what I gather, Swiss DMV conducts their business not unlike the U.S. F.A.A. and trying to squeeze any leeway out of them regarding interpretation of the regulations would be futile. Hopefully they wont set the hoops on fire prior to requesting that you jump through them ;)
Karl, is this a recent change to the Swiss DMV rules? In other words, were there any SuperBirds already in Switzerland when this rule went into effect? Were those SuperBirds converted to meet the new rule, or were they 'grandfathered' in? If those earlier 'Birds were allowed to remain without meeting the new regulation, you may be able to request an exemption, based on the other SuperBirds and the age and collector status of your car. Otherwise,
A. never drive the car :rotz: or
B. register it in France, Germany or Italy and hope that you never get caught by the Swiss :yesnod:.
I understand your issue is based on regulations, and not the practical logistics of the situation.
I suggest the tried and true method - bribery. Whether it be monetary / free rides for life / favorite snack foods or whatever.
Yes I am serious, as this seems to be why this regulation was set up in the first place... ridiculous...
Keep us posted man, good luck :2thumbs:
Maybe these guys can help. At the very least they probably have some experience and may be able to give you some insights:
http://www.autozulassung.ch/Registering_an_imported_vehicle_from_the_USA_in_Switzerland.htm
From their home page:
"We specialize in for Homologations, Modifications, Import Technical Inspections, Registration of EU-Import Autos, Canada und USA Import vehicles. "
"In principal, you can import any car into Switzerland from USA, Canada and Europe etc"
Your car is actually a piece of art. Do they require painting or sculpture collectors to deface their property due to an incoherant regulation? Like others here, I'd like to hear one proven story of someone litterally losing their head due to one of these cars.
Is it the whole wing assembly that needs to break away? If it is just the horizontal component that needs to comply it may be possible to replace the Allen screws with a lower shear value material like wooden doweling or aluminium tube.
John
Sounds like anything that sticks out more than 3.2" has to break away. It's kinda like hood ornament reg's run amok :o
Quote from: learical1 on March 23, 2011, 04:54:01 PM
Karl, is this a recent change to the Swiss DMV rules? In other words, were there any SuperBirds already in Switzerland when this rule went into effect? Were those SuperBirds converted to meet the new rule, or were they 'grandfathered' in? If those earlier 'Birds were allowed to remain without meeting the new regulation, you may be able to request an exemption, based on the other SuperBirds and the age and collector status of your car. Otherwise,
A. never drive the car :rotz: or
B. register it in France, Germany or Italy and hope that you never get caught by the Swiss :yesnod:.
As I figured out there were two Superbirds imported to Switzerland. One in the mid 70's (Alpine White) it belonged to one of the Mopar specialists in Zurich, I spoke to him, he could not get the car registered with the wing, he was caught three times by the police, the third time they wanted to take away his driver's license, he sold the car to a museum in Germany, the car is now in Liechtenstein, but never on the street. A second car (Tor Red) came also end of 70/beginning of 80's to Switzerland, the car could not be registered with the wing, never seen the car on the street since the mid 80's.
Naive as I am - I thought that times have also changed in Switzerland but I relize that the clock is ticking very slowly here...
Answer to A.: What ever happens I will drive the car - at least three times ...
Answer to B.: Possibility, but if you live in Switzerland and you are a citizen in Switzerland (like me) you are not allowed to drive a car with a forgein plate, except you have a prove that you live in that forgein country ...
Be sure we are creative - we will find a way to drive this car legally - but thank you to ALL of you for your contributions - very much appreciated!!! :rotz: (at this moment my mood...)
It sounds like your going to get stopped by the Police either way when you figure how to make it legall or not, has any one tried to contact your local government on the issue and do some historical deal for these cars. If you put some flimsy bolt in there and hit a hard bump or a fast speed it may fly off and kill someone. There logic is worse.
I really would source a fiberglass wing. Lighten it, put a cable in it, put plastic bolts in it, and get it tested. You could even get it done by molding it in carbon fiber--then it would weigh under three kilos. Obviously you'd keep the original wing on the side for when you might sell the car.
I think that might be the wisest decision too.
Are there any F40 Ferrari's or Lamborghini's registered and on the road?
If so you should be able to use these as examples of cars with "wings" that exceed the height limit.
Hitail
Quote from: A383Wing on March 22, 2011, 08:26:09 PM
that's why the mandated cable in Nascar....to keep all pieces from flying away
I wonder if Dave or anyone else who has a stockpile of documentation has anything in writing from when NASCAR mandated this? Not that NASCAR rules can equal or better what DMV wants, but it might be one more thing in favor of allowing the wing to stay.
If you still can't get it registered, I'll trade you a standard Road Runner that only has the air grabber hood, no wing. :D
MAKE ONE OUT OF PAPER
Quote from: Old Moparz on March 24, 2011, 08:34:02 PM
Quote from: A383Wing on March 22, 2011, 08:26:09 PM
that's why the mandated cable in Nascar....to keep all pieces from flying away
I wonder if Dave or anyone else who has a stockpile of documentation has anything in writing from when NASCAR mandated this? Not that NASCAR rules can equal or better what DMV wants, but it might be one more thing in favor of allowing the wing to stay.
If you still can't get it registered, I'll trade you a standard Road Runner that only has the air grabber hood, no wing. :D
There isnt a full engineering diagram in the superbird fleet manual of the wing .It has each piece .I did download Nitro metal 70 Nascar rulebook .Have to look and seen what was mentioned about the wing if anything outlined
I borrowed a 1:1 scale drawing of a race Daytona wing several years back, and tried to get some copies made. The drawing was almost as big as a quilt and had degraded quite a bit over the years -- in addition to being quite fragile -- to the point it could not be fed through a plan-sized scanner/copier to copy it (even if it was folded). I took it to two different historic document restoration places hoping they could help flatten it out and perhaps even digitially photograph it for preservation. No one wanted to mess with it.
Once I struck out getting anyone to help out, I gave it back to the owner. In retrospect, I should have taken at least a few pictures of the areas that were still in good shape. Yet another omission of mine I can regret at my leisure... :brickwall:
The drawing showed how the holes were to be drilled at the top of the wing uprights to route the retaining cable NASCAR required - but it contained zero engineering information such as you'd be needing. I don't know where such info would exist, and it would need to be totally redone to suit the Swiss regulations anyway.
Kinda stinks that they're putting you through the hassles.
I wonder if you could replace the four studs at each wing base (going through the quarterpanel) with two molded plastic studs - or however many studs you could use and still stay beneath the 60+/- lbs. of applied breakaway force. Might have to have them molded with a narrowed section to reduce their tensile strength - which is counterintuitive to say the least. One of the other stud mounting holes in each upright could be used to thread in an eyehook, to which a safety cable could be attached and anchored to the wing brace. I don't think you'd HAVE to have a cable routed from one side to the other, since under this scenario the whole wing would "break away" and you'd want the center section secured to the uprights with the regular capscrew to keep it all together as an assembly. Worst case scenario, we know it's at least possible to run a cable through the uprights and center section - since the NASCAR guys did it without any major problem.
As has already been said, get a fiberglass wing to mess around with like this and keep the original on the shelf/intact.
Good luck with getting it all resolved!
:cheers:
Thank you all again!!!
Since there are different vendors of fiberglass wings, which one shall I buy?
Is there anybody producing carbon fiber wings?
OK - I don't mean to insinuate that you've been getting bad information - but you're getting suggestions that aren't practical and don't really address the issue at hand. So, I'll give you both...
THE PRACTICAL - WORK THE LEGAL SYSTEM
1) You need to get a printed copy of the DMV regulations. Everything down to the letter of the law and all its subsets.
2) You need to also look for and get printed copies of anything that might be similarly related to the registration of "antique vehicles, historical vehicles, anything that might possible be stretched to give you an exception. No doubt there are really old vehicles (turn of the century vehicles) in Europe. I would look to see what statutes cover this vehicles.
3) You need to get a local Swiss attorney to give you a general opinion (over a beer) as to whether fighting the DMV is worth your time and/or money and if you have any chance at all.
4) Generally, "vague" laws cannot be upheld and enforced. You are looking for things that actually specify "what is a wing". If you can't define it, you can't enforce it. You might be able to argue that unlike "cosmetic wings" that buzz cars employ, you actually have an "airfoil" on your vehicle which contributes to the safety and stability of the vehicle. In other words, its a vital a function as is the safety glass windshield. That's why you need an attorney. Attorneys are specialists in dealing with the vague and undefined.
5) I did a brief check on Swiss laws and here is an interesting comment "Any car sold within the European Community and that meets EU standards is automatically in accordance with Swiss law and can be imported without modification." If I am not mistaken, Chrysler did directly sell Superbirds in Europe. You might be able to argue that the prior sale of the Superbird by an EU country, perhaps England, means that your Superbird has already met the criteria for approaval in Switzerland.
6) If he thinks you have a chance - hire him and let him handle it.
OK - now if the attorney says you have "no chance" - here's my own version of the "creative solutions" you've been previously offered.
THE PULL IT OUT OF MY REAR END IDEAS
1) Be creative. Since the wing is a three piece item and two pieces (the fins) actually bolt down into the frame, you may be able to argue that they are required structural components (if you can find some supporting U.S. documentation to hang your hat on).
2) See if you can get by with leaving the metal fins intact and make a center section out of balsa wood, plastic, or styrofoam! Something that might break away or meet whatever specific criteria you are trying to meet. Don't think of the wing as one unit - technically, only the horizontal piece is the wing, the other two are brackets.
http://www.isyours.com/e/immigration/relocation/vehicles/registering.html
http://www.tcs.ch/main/de/home.html
swissmopar
I am serious about the Ferrari F40 idea.
The linked article notes a gentlemen that was able to register a Ferrari F40 in Switzerland. Maybe he can help.
http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/features/octane_features/228225/driven_ferrari_f40.html (http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/features/octane_features/228225/driven_ferrari_f40.html)
Hitail
I just saw this post and I am surprised that so far no one mentioned driving the car without the wing (unless I missed it). Could you get it inspected without it... just have a small flat black fiber glass pieces made to just take the basic shape of the very base of the wing - like little filler pieces - and then have studs molded into and drive it like that. ...... I know, not a very good choice but better that nothing. Drive it to a show or whatever and have a "support vehicle" carry your wing for you. The wing isn't very big when taken apart and hey you can make some new friends wherever you go! Oh it is sure to be a conversation starter. :cheers:
Just a thought and my :Twocents:....
Godspeed,
JON
Short update:
(1) SwissBird will be inspected May 10, 2011 without the wing - but will be on the street with the wing May 11, 2011 ...
(2) Carbon wing (2.5kg) will be finished mid June 2011, testing of the wing including the offical approval will be available end of June 2011. I will drive the car with the original wing. I assume that the police is only controlling the approval of the wing but not the material.
Attached a few pics of the home of the SwissBird. Typical european garage ... The chassis frame in the front of pic 3 is a 1958 Corvette - just back from powder coating.
Keep you posted!
Hi Karl,
good luck for the MfK !
Hope to see you in Västeras again !
Maybe with the bird?
Carsten
Quote from: resq302 on March 22, 2011, 03:56:50 PM
Honestly, unless you are going in reverse at 60 mph, someone will have to be scooped up by the nose (which in their mind probably cut off their legs), smash into and go over the windshield, clear the roof, roll down the back glass, just so happen to roll up on the torso (since the legs are now dismembered) and then get decapitated. Speed in order to accomplish this amazing once in a life time feat........ probably an excess of 200 mph! :nana:
And here I thought the BS we went through for our cars in the USA was a lot!
Yea, try telling those idiots this.
Quote from: fc7_plumcrazy on April 30, 2011, 08:41:12 AM
Hi Karl,
good luck for the MfK !
Hope to see you in Västeras again !
Maybe with the bird?
Carsten
Hi Carsten,
Yes - this year with the Bird at the Big Meet in Sweden!!! Looking forward to meet you there.
Karl
The car is ready for inspection without the wing ...
good luck :cheers:
Here an update:
(1) inspection without wing was successful
(2) DMV ruling: wing should not be out of carbon because of splintering in case of an accident ...
(3) wing will be produced out of glass reinforced polyester - weight 5kg
(4) here some pictures of the negative
OK, maybe I missed something here, but why can't the original wing be used? It's not made of carbon fiber, so wouldn't splinter in an accident...
And man, that's a "typical European" garage?.... :2thumbs:
The original one is a high risk for pedestrian decapitation and therefore must be made to be a breakaway upon impact deal and ince he didin't want to destroy the original in the test or application of this madness he wisely created a duplicate.
I hit a pheasant last year- feet just touched the top of the windshield- and the body hit the wing- POOF! nothing but feathers-
Not saying it's impossible but I think right now the total number of pedestrians worldwide to have been decapitated by a Superbird wing after being struck by same number around zero. ;)
I bet there are more incidents with pedestrians & side view mirrors on trucks. ::)