DodgeCharger.com Forum

Mopar Garage => Engine, Transmission, Rearend, & Exhaust => Topic started by: AKcharger on July 03, 2008, 01:24:37 AM

Title: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: AKcharger on July 03, 2008, 01:24:37 AM
I was informed by firefighter and another pal about the importance of having a zinc additive added to your oil during initial cam break in. I used regular oil on my break in and began to panic so I wanted to get the story....and it is potentially catastrophic!

I called Valvoline this morning and spoke to Chris at their tech department and confirmend the story; zinc dithiophosphate (ZnDTP) levels were reduced by mandate of the EPA within the past year. He said regular oils now have less than 850 ppm ZnDTP but their diesel oils are still between 900 and 1000 PPM and their valvoline racing oil has 1300ppm because it's designed for off-road use.

OK, so that's the oil part, I then called Engle, the manufacturer of my cam  and spoke to Doug. I asked about the low zinc deal and asked if this was really something to worry about, he said YES. In fact he stated emphatically to use an additive not only during break-in but ALL THE TIME. he said the low ZnDTP will eat the cam/lifters and due to shavings floating around the engine...eventually the rest of the motor will go too.

So what to do?

- Use a Zinc additive. Engle suggests "justice brothers" and figherfighter suggests GM EOS or ZZDP plus
- My pal talked to Bullet racing cams (they custom ground his hemi cam) and they say any oil conforming to CI-4 rating (Diesel oil) offers adequate protection
- I haven't tried any additive yet so I can't make a recommendation...but feel free to add to this post

I can't believe this isn't getting press...or if it has I sure missed it.

P.S. my engine is OK  ;)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: mally69 on July 03, 2008, 06:44:56 AM
Just for curiosity does that STP oil treatment in the little blue bottle have the zinc that is needed.?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: firefighter3931 on July 03, 2008, 08:20:42 AM
Bill, this is what happens when you don't have adequate oil protection additives :

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,46002.0.html


There are several race oils out there with added zinc/phos (royal purple racing/amsoil etc...) but those cost big $$. A good diesel oil like Rotella T 15/40 with an EP additive will work just as well. The Rotella used to have lots of the good stuff in it but that has now changed thanks to the EPA.  :flame:

The additives i would use include ; GM Engine oil supplement (EOS), Comp Cams breakin lube, or ZZDP plus.

Bill you dodged a bullet brother....don't take anymore chances.  ;)




Ron
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: MOPARHOUND! on July 03, 2008, 11:29:33 AM
E.O.S. has been re-released by GM finally............at twice the price of course.  Bought some Monday at the local Buick dealer.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: mally69 on July 03, 2008, 11:54:00 AM
Oh jees. I ran my new engine for about 50 miles on NAPA 15-40. Maybe I should pull my valley pan and check my lobes.  :eyes: ::) I hope i didn't ruin anyting already.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: AKcharger on July 03, 2008, 11:14:30 PM
An easier option would be change your oil and filter and then cut open your old filter and chek for contaminants, here's mine after 2 hours of running, a few slivers but otherwise good
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Dodge Don on July 04, 2008, 06:07:33 AM
Thankfully Ron alerted me to this awhile ago and I went around buying up as much Rotella CL-4 as I could get my hands on and I have a stockpile of GM EOS as well. It was good timing as the old Rotella was being replaced with the new lower zinc stuff at the time so I grabbed every one I could find locally. In a few years when my stockpile is used up I'll switch to whatever high zinc racing oil is available and continue using GM EOS.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bill440rt on July 04, 2008, 08:51:29 AM
Just curious, but what if you run synthetic??  :shruggy:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: AKcharger on July 04, 2008, 12:49:39 PM
The valvoline guy said synthetics also conform to the new low lead criteria  :-\
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on July 04, 2008, 01:08:58 PM
Does anyone have an update on the oil additive that Mopar Performance was working on?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: firefighter3931 on July 04, 2008, 10:17:53 PM
Quote from: bill440rt on July 04, 2008, 08:51:29 AM
Just curious, but what if you run synthetic??  :shruggy:


Royal Purple "racing" has lots of zinc/phos but it's $12 a quart.  :o

Mobil 1 motorcycle oil also has lots of the good stuff as well  :yesnod:


I like dinosaur oil with a little extra kick (EOS/Comp breakin lube or ZZDP plus)  :2thumbs:




Ron
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 1969chargerrtse on July 05, 2008, 06:43:14 AM
I've put 2,000 miles on my rebuilt motor and used Valvoline ZR1 racing oil from day one.  It is listed as racing oil because it has the Zinc in it.  Please confirm this oil is o.k and I need to do nothing else? 
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: firefighter3931 on July 05, 2008, 05:47:46 PM
Quote from: 1969chargerrtse on July 05, 2008, 06:43:14 AM
I've put 2,000 miles on my rebuilt motor and used Valvoline ZR1 racing oil from day one.  It is listed as racing oil because it has the Zinc in it.  Please confirm this oil is o.k and I need to do nothing else? 


The VR-1 20/50 racing oil is descent but i would still add an EP additive.  :Twocents:



Ron
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: FLG on July 05, 2008, 06:20:18 PM
How can you tell the older better Rotella from the newer stuff? Local gas station has bottles that look like they been sitting for quite some time..so i may buy up a stock if its the older better stuff.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: firefighter3931 on July 05, 2008, 06:29:19 PM
Quote from: FLG on July 05, 2008, 06:20:18 PM
How can you tell the older better Rotella from the newer stuff? Local gas station has bottles that look like they been sitting for quite some time..so i may buy up a stock if its the older better stuff.


Frank, the old Rotella 15/40 will have a CL-4 or CL-4 plus rating on the bottle. The new "reformulated" Rotella has a different rating and a sunburst logo on the bottle. It's still descent but the zinc/phos has dropped from 1400-1500 ppm down to 900-1000. Adding a bottle of the correct EP additive will get it back up to where it used to be if not slightly better.  :2thumbs:



Ron
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: toupee on July 05, 2008, 11:28:35 PM
Alright, I'm lost.  So this problem applies to basically all non roller engines?  That's a lot of people.  And no company's have to make an announcement about this?  Seems like they would be setting themselves up for lawsuites from a bunch of vintage car buffs if motors start failing all over the place in the next few years.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: AKcharger on July 06, 2008, 01:20:55 AM
Quote from: toupee on July 05, 2008, 11:28:35 PM
Alright, I'm lost.  So this problem applies to basically all non roller engines?  That's a lot of people.  And no company's have to make an announcement about this?  Seems like they would be setting themselves up for lawsuites from a bunch of vintage car buffs if motors start failing all over the place in the next few years.

Well I'd like to agree but who would we sue? it would have to be the EPA and I'm sure they made like 100 flyers about it and that would leagally cover them. We have to face the fact we are an extreme minority and gov't and 99% of industry doesn't care about us or people who own 20+ Y/O cars ::)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: toupee on July 06, 2008, 08:32:33 AM
You're probably right.  Funny how things work.  Now, if you were talking about some sort of civil rights issue and we were the extreme minority I bet agencies/press would be falling over themselves to make sure everybody knew.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: mally69 on July 06, 2008, 09:02:13 AM
Just a queston, but what do most cars have in there for lifters today. Are they all roller?? What would my 4.7 in my dakota have in there.?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Plumcrazy on July 06, 2008, 09:11:17 AM
Quote from: mally69 on July 06, 2008, 09:02:13 AM
Just a queston, but what do most cars have in there for lifters today. Are they all roller?? What would my 4.7 in my dakota have in there.?

The 4.7 is an overhead cam design.  It has roller type cam followers.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: BrianShaughnessy on July 06, 2008, 09:55:37 AM
Quote from: AKcharger on July 03, 2008, 01:24:37 AM
I can't believe this isn't getting press...or if it has I sure missed it.


Old news for some of us.  :shruggy:     But it helps to keep it up top... cause there's newbies all the time.

Frankly,  flat hydraulic cams are obsolete.   Hydraulic roller cam V6 / V8s have pretty much been standard since the mid 80's.    20 years is a long time to worry about zinc levels when they're not necessary for modern engines to survive and harmful to other components or emissions.       

Solid cams haven't been in a production car probably since '70 or '71 which pretty much makes them archaic... but they're still fun!  :icon_smile_cool:

I'm pretty sure the near future will see the camshaft itself is archaic and replaced by computer driven solenoids as standard.   
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: FLG on July 06, 2008, 10:48:24 AM
Ron just bought a quart, they have both ratings on the bottle  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bordin34 on July 06, 2008, 10:53:03 PM
Does Ci-4 still have enough ZDDP in it. I bought 5 quarts of Ci-4 plus Mobil Delvac because they are now becoming CJ-4. Also, I just bought 2 quarts of Ci-4 Ford oil at walmart.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: RallyeMike on July 07, 2008, 12:55:50 AM
Well, I'll add my story: Two flat cam lobes and crap that fouled up a piston skirt likely as a result. Complete tear down, hone, and rebuild with new pistons, cam and bearings. Just got the engine back in the car today. It had about 600-700 (hard) miles on it. I was using Mobil 1 20-50W, which a couple years ago was fine. Did not realize the formula had changed once again since I last checked it out.  I need to pay more attention to this crap !

Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: firefighter3931 on July 07, 2008, 12:31:10 PM
Quote from: RallyeMike on July 07, 2008, 12:55:50 AM
Well, I'll add my story: Two flat cam lobes and crap that fouled up a piston skirt likely as a result. Complete tear down, hone, and rebuild with new pistons, cam and bearings. Just got the engine back in the car today. It had about 600-700 (hard) miles on it. I was using Mobil 1 20-50W, which a couple years ago was fine. Did not realize the formula had changed once again since I last checked it out.  I need to pay more attention to this crap !




Mike, why not run a solid cam and use the EDM lifters with priority lobe oiling. In an application like yours that would be my preferance.  :Twocents:



Ron
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: RallyeMike on July 07, 2008, 10:19:57 PM
I almost went roller but ...... the motor is back in the car now with another flat-tap. There's no reason it should fail with the correct oil additives. People have been running more aggressive flat tappet cams than mine for years before this oil formulation mess. 

I had a guy ask me in the auto parts store the other day what the bottle of "lead substitute" was for. He was just some guy who had the hand-me-down family classic and has managed to keep it going. I'm sure his exhaust valve seats are toast, and like many other similar plain folks out there, these oil changes are going to costs a lot of unsuspecting people a lot of money and grief. I think someone in this thread said basically "we should all know better", but there are a lot of non-gear head people like this guy I met that are going to get screwed, and it just plain sucks. 

Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Chryco Psycho on July 08, 2008, 04:22:11 PM
Mopar also sells the correct additive under VU 1157 part #
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on July 14, 2008, 09:13:20 AM
As far as suing anybody, it'd be like trying to sue over the switch to low octane no lead oxygenated gasoline. 
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: my73charger on July 17, 2008, 09:23:14 AM
Just a thought, I think we should have this pinned at the top for a while.  I was a victiim of bad oil in the past year and was fortunate enough to only have to replace the cam and lifters.  We need to get the word out at least here.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Mick70RR on July 19, 2008, 06:31:27 AM
This guy has made it his mission in life to get to the bottom of this, sending oil samples for independent testing. It's a long thread so here's some of the results so far.

(1200ppm-1400ppm) Zn & P is where we need to be for good protection when running an aftermarket flat tappet hyd or solid perf cam with elevated spring rates which is what many of us are running in oru SBC/BBC)

(KEY=Zn-ppm/P-ppm/Ca-ppm)


VALVOLINE  NSL RACE(not VR1) -20W-50 - 1250/1000/890 (ALL 4 VALVOLINE OILS LISTED HERE ARE CONVENTIONAL)

VALVOLINE  NSL RACE -10W-30 - 1000/750

VALVOLINE  VR1 RACE -20W-50 - 1040/840

VALVOLINE  VR1 RACE -10W-40 - 1160/912

BRAD PENN RACE - 20W-50 - 770/600(SYN BLEND)

PENNZOIL GT 25W-50 RACING OIL - 1676/1483(CONVEN OIL)

CASTROL SYNTEC TRUCK & 4X4 15W-40 - 1240/990(SYN BELND)

CHEVRON DELO LE CJ 15W-40 - 1360/1115(CONVEN OIL)

SHELL ROTEALLA 30WT SINGLE GRADE -1215/1050(CONVEN OIL)

LUBRIPLATE GPO H/D 15W-40 - 1165/920(CONVEN OIL)

ROYAL PURPLE 5W30 XPR Racing Oil - 1421/1339(FULL SYN/TESTED BY FELLOW T/C'R)


If you want to read it here's the link.

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195620&page=15
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: firefighter3931 on July 19, 2008, 09:27:11 PM
Good info Mic.....thanks for posting  :2thumbs:

That Penzoil GT 20/50 looks impressive !


Ron
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on July 19, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
I'm wondering if the formulations are changing faster than that list though?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: mally69 on July 20, 2008, 12:08:23 AM
Wow, it shows BradPenn being the lowest. I thought theirs was supposed to be one of the top choices for flat tappet cams?  :icon_smile_question:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Plumcrazy on July 22, 2008, 02:54:46 PM
I stumbled on this web site/product. A lot of interesting reading. :scratchchin:

http://www.zddplus.com/index.htm

Anybody use it?  Thoughts, opinions.


Another possibility

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915470&contentId=7032644
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: daves68 on July 23, 2008, 06:54:32 PM
Zinc additive was removed from motor oil last year because it was suspected of fouling catalytic converters and thereby allowing more pollutants to pass out of the engine. My question would be that we have been saddled with cats since 1975. Why did they just start failing because of oil/zinc last year? Smell a rat here. Thank the next tree huggin, tofu fartin, enviro twink  liberal that  you see.
Dave
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Chryco Psycho on August 17, 2008, 12:31:10 AM
yup trying to get all the old cars off the road & force us to buy new with no $$ as the raises are nowhere close to keeping up with rising costs
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Wango Mango on August 22, 2008, 02:04:51 PM
Check out www.bobistheoilguy.com   its quite a site dedicated to lubricants & there's a wealth of info on the passenger car rorum & racing forum.  I switched to Brad Penn 1 Racing Oil (the real 'green' oil that used to be Kendall GT1).  It has 1300 ppm of zinc & lots of phosphorus.  Valvonine VR1 is also high in zinc & highly rated.   Some tests they did that are on the site don't recommend additives since they compromise the formulas that the oils were designed with.  Check out the website.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: racecharger on August 22, 2008, 04:10:45 PM
I have a .645 roller in in my stroked 496.
Do I need zinc in my oil?
I have run my engine for about one hour to brake it in.
And I will take it to the Dino soon. 

I have used a Mobil 1 15-40 diesel engine oil so far.
What do you think?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: daves68 on August 22, 2008, 06:11:26 PM
No, you don't. A roller cam set-up will not be affected by the zinc removal. The stresses on a roller are waaayyy less than those on a flat tappet.
It's only "flat" guys that have to be concerned.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on August 23, 2008, 08:35:15 AM
Quote from: Wango Mango on August 22, 2008, 02:04:51 PM
Check out www.bobistheoilguy.com   its quite a site dedicated to lubricants...             ... Some tests they did that are on the site don't recommend additives since they compromise the formulas that the oils were designed with.  Check out the website.

The only additive test I could find on that site was adding Lucas gear oil additive to a gear oil and one motor oil.  That didn't seem too conclusive other than for Lucas.   Is there more?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on August 31, 2008, 08:31:57 PM
Hmmm. I never heard of this problem either. :scratchchin:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on September 02, 2008, 08:50:32 PM
Quote from: mally69 on July 20, 2008, 12:08:23 AM
Wow, it shows BradPenn being the lowest. I thought theirs was supposed to be one of the top choices for flat tappet cams?  :icon_smile_question:


What is listed is the synthetic,not the Brad Penn !.

http://www.bradpennracing.com/Zinc.html
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: hemigeno on September 04, 2008, 06:53:43 PM
I heard rumors about running diesel-oriented oils - like Rotella T - in gasoline engines is a long-term problem (too much detergent in the formulations, or something to that effect).  Any truth to that?

Even though I am running a roller cam in the Hemi, I've switched it and the 2-ton truck over to Valvoline Racing 20W50 NSL (not street legal).  When I researched this issue last winter, I thought it was (for the money) a better alternative than throwing a can of EOS in with any of the low-zinc oils. 

:Twocents:

Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: FLG on September 09, 2008, 12:17:10 AM
Cant see the truth in that...Ive even read the back of some bottles of Diesel oil, some companies actually RECOMMEND it for high mileage autos.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on September 11, 2008, 03:42:31 AM
They do run higher detergent levels in order to deal with the additional soot diesels make but I don't recall ever hearing that it caused a problem in gas engines.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on September 11, 2008, 11:28:49 AM
The BIG question is how come the Mopar Muscle and MCG have never said one thing about this serious issue ???
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on September 11, 2008, 12:29:40 PM
In most cases they seem to be more geared to profiling 1 of 1 cars or something that someone spent more $$$$ on than the average guy can afford.Technical information that would help everyone seems to be secondary. :Twocents:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on September 12, 2008, 12:43:33 PM
I do recall seeing a very small blurb about it some time ago in ME.  As for MM, all of their articles are advertising.  The cars and tech articles always tie directly into the advertisers who comprise over half of each issue.  To them, the car stuff is just filler so until someone wants to seriously market the oil additives we need and wants to advertise in MM, you won't see much.  MCG doesn't really do any tech articles and as for MA, I don't know why they haven't gotten on it yet.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Spike on September 13, 2008, 01:32:05 PM
Amsoil just introduced a line of Dominator Racing oils that features an additive package heavily fortified with zinc and phosphorus for superior long-term wear protection.
Designed for maximum durability, it ensures critical engine components are protected for the duration of the race.
Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil's superior additive technology provides unmatched durability in extreme conditions.
In addition, its high levels of zinc and phosphorus additives make it ideal for street rods, muscle cars and other vehicles with flat-tappet cams.

For more info:  Amsoil New Products (http://www.superiorlubrication.com/News.html)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: frederick on September 15, 2008, 04:32:28 PM
I came across this site:
http://www.camresearchcorp.com/
They say they have got a machine that can break-in a camshaft outside of the engine.
Has anybody used them yet?
It sounds like a good solution.

Frederick

ps not connected to them in any way.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on September 15, 2008, 10:35:48 PM
 What magazine is ME ??
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on September 16, 2008, 03:39:58 AM
Mopar Enthusiast.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: my73charger on September 16, 2008, 12:21:52 PM
I have been talking with my car buddies about this situation and several of them insist the the Mobil 1 15/50 full synthetic (racing formula) is safe to run.  They also questioned whether or not you could add an EOS to fully synthetic successfully, something about not blending correctly.  Does anyone know?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: tatrick2me on September 28, 2008, 09:33:59 AM
 :shruggy: Synthetic oil has never had zinc it don't blend right. So I don't think I'm about to go dump the Mobile 1 I've used with out a problem for 30 yrs.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Spike on September 29, 2008, 06:04:22 PM
Here is a good article from Hagerty's Insurance magazine.

Years ago, oil companies and automakers dicovered that zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) was effective in reducing cam and lifter wear, as the compound interacts with the iron of the cam lobes and create a sacrificial barrier.

As of 1998, the ZDDP concentration in oils certified by the American Petroleum Institute (API) standardized at up to 1200 ppm (parts per million) phosphorous.

However, phosphorous levels were brought down to 800 ppm by 2004 because high phos concentrations shorten catalytic converter life in modern cars and modern roller cam engines don't require ZDDP's protection.

Soon, rebuilders of flat tappet engines particularly those from 1950s to the 1970s - were noting increased cam failure on newly assembled engines. Many engine builders have tied the failures to the reformulated oils. Although API spokesman Dennis Bachelde asserts that API-ranked oils are compatible with older vehicles and the ZDDP levels in current SM-rated oils are sufficient to protect flat tappet engines.

If you are in doubt about using the current generation of 800 ppm SM- rated oils try these options.
Use a oil rated for diesel and gasoline engines (up to 1000 ppm). Available from many oil companies.
Use a ZDDP additive such as ZDDPLUS (zddplus.com) or Cam Shield (cam-shield.com) with every oil change.
Classic Car Motor Oil (classiccarmotoroil.com) contains 1500-1600 ppm.
Additional protection, essential during the start up phase for any fresh engine, can be provided by generous use  of an assembly lube with large doses of ZDDP like GM E.O.S Assembly Lube.(PN 1052367)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on September 30, 2008, 02:31:24 AM
I don't know that I agree with their recommendation to use diesel rated stuff anymore but I applaud an insurance company for taking a pro-active role in safeguarding their customers interests.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: my73charger on September 30, 2008, 10:00:55 AM
Holy smokes.  They are raising the price of GM EOS to $22.00/bottle here locally.  They told me it was given a new part number.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on September 30, 2008, 01:06:48 PM
Raising the price of EOS.  Forget Gm. Go with Rottela.  :Twocents:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on October 01, 2008, 06:23:35 PM
Quote from: my73charger on September 30, 2008, 10:00:55 AM
Holy smokes.  They are raising the price of GM EOS to $22.00/bottle here locally.  They told me it was given a new part number.


Don't take this the wrong way but why do some of you guys insist on buying addatives when there are good oils availiable that already contain sufficient quantities of zinc ? :scratchchin:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: smerritt on October 01, 2008, 10:49:13 PM
How important is it to add a zinc additive to engine oil when the engine is not driven hard and racks up less
than 50 miles a year? Is it necessary under these conditions?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on October 02, 2008, 03:37:54 AM
If it were my engine, I'd still add it even if it were only going on and off a trailer, but that's just me.   As for screw GM and going Rotella, Rotella has dropped the zinc level in their oil and that is part of how this thread took off in the first place.  As for buying a specialty oil with the levels needed, I can't speak for everyone else but here in Mayberry it's far cheaper for me to buy regular oil and add  (in my case) the Comp Cams stuff than it is to buy a boutique oil.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: my73charger on October 02, 2008, 07:23:53 AM
Quote from: Ghoste on October 02, 2008, 03:37:54 AM
If it were my engine, I'd still add it even if it were only going on and off a trailer, but that's just me.   As for screw GM and going Rotella, Rotella has dropped the zinc level in their oil and that is part of how this thread took off in the first place.  As for buying a specialty oil with the levels needed, I can't speak for everyone else but here in Mayberry it's far cheaper for me to buy regular oil and add  (in my case) the Comp Cams stuff than it is to buy a boutique oil.

I agree.  I already chewed up a cam last year.  For me it is worth the peace of mind to add the EOS at every oil change.  And for the record, I am using RotellaT and still adding it.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on October 02, 2008, 08:16:38 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on October 02, 2008, 03:37:54 AM
If it were my engine, I'd still add it even if it were only going on and off a trailer, but that's just me.   As for screw GM and going Rotella, Rotella has dropped the zinc level in their oil and that is part of how this thread took off in the first place.  As for buying a specialty oil with the levels needed, I can't speak for everyone else but here in Mayberry it's far cheaper for me to buy regular oil and add  (in my case) the Comp Cams stuff than it is to buy a boutique oil.
Ghoste, who said screw GM. ??  I simply said...forget them.  The BIG QUESTION is why Chrysler does not have EOS.??? Don't they care ???
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on October 02, 2008, 08:25:18 PM
Sorry I wasn't trying to flame you in any way.  I wasn't even thinking in terms of exact quotes or misquotes, in this case "forget" and "screw" were meant in the same way to me.
As for why Chrysler doesn't offer it, I believe they are, but I'd like to know a little more about the product before I throw it in.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on October 02, 2008, 08:33:26 PM
  Ghoste, no problem.  I guess I was worried about comming across as an Donkey. A_ _. :angel:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: MOPARHOUND! on October 02, 2008, 10:54:48 PM
Quote from page 1 :

Quote from: Chryco Psycho on July 08, 2008, 04:22:11 PM
Mopar also sells the correct additive under VU 1157 part #
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on October 03, 2008, 01:29:08 PM
BUT...  does anyone know the chemical makeup of the Mopar product?  I'd still like to know more about it before using it.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: AKcharger on October 04, 2008, 09:38:10 PM
ZZDD plus is $10, I'm going with that stuff
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: BronzeOnSteelies on October 09, 2008, 12:06:56 PM
I change my oil once every season and I just did it. I am getting a bottle of ZZDP Plus to put in there before I drive it now.

The local hot rod shop owner agrees that you need to put it in for every oil change not just break in.
He also said he sells Shaeffer 15/40 oil for 6$ a quart that has the zinc in it. I guess it is not a sure thing that it has enough in it based on this thread.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on October 10, 2008, 01:20:38 PM
Is it a little slap at the EPA that Penn oil with the zinc in it is green?  :nana:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 1969chargerrtse on October 18, 2008, 08:52:16 PM
I use the Valvoline VR1 racing oil, here is some great news from their site, about the zinc level in the oil.

http://www.valvoline.com/downloads/2008-003a.pdf

Many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts believe the lower levels of zinc in "SM" engine oil is causing excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. This is despite the fact that all new engine oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible. This has resulted in the widely accepted belief that modern engine oil is not adequate to protect older engines.

There are high-zinc engine oils available to meet this need. It is important to note, however, that the entire additive package still needs to be balanced for best performance. For example, engine oil with a high zinc level but low detergent may not perform over a drain interval of 3,000 miles or longer.
Valvoline offers two solutions to the zinc issue

Valvoline Racing VR1: 75% higher zinc than SM engine oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. Valvoline provides this product in both multi and mono viscosity grades: SAE 20W-50 (part vv211), straight SAE 50 (part vv235), SAE 10W-30 (part vv205), SAE 30(part vv223), SAE 40 (part vv229), and SAE 60 (part vv241)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: General_01 on October 27, 2008, 09:51:00 PM
Jer, a guy on the 71-74 Charger Board, posted this link. I guess you can buy Classic Car Motor Oil from a place in Indiana. I have not purchased from them, but thought I would pass this info along.

http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 375instroke on December 07, 2008, 10:08:58 AM
Quote from: tatrick2me on September 28, 2008, 09:33:59 AM
:shruggy: Synthetic oil has never had zinc it don't blend right. So I don't think I'm about to go dump the Mobile 1 I've used with out a problem for 30 yrs.

Here's a link to 20 samples of Mobile 1 test results, and they all show zinc and phosphorous.  Why do you say your Mobile 1 has never had zinc in it?

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 375instroke on December 07, 2008, 10:15:49 AM
Quote from: ACUDANUT on October 02, 2008, 08:16:38 PM
Ghoste, who said screw GM. ??  I simply said...forget them.  The BIG QUESTION is why Chrysler does not have EOS.??? Don't they care ???
No.  They don't care.  They don't sell us the parts we need.  The parts they do sell us are often crap, and overpriced.  When someone does make a part we want, that they won't, they have them arrested.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on December 10, 2008, 11:46:26 AM
THANK YOU FOR THIS INFO!I just finished rebuilding my 440 end of last year and if my son had needed to take the "beater" to collage I would have ground down the new cam to 0 lift by now!Lucky I only put few miles on it before finding this.I'm running VR1 now, going to open up my filter and hope for the best!
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on December 10, 2008, 11:03:49 PM
 I need a price check-in for GM's  EOS. Thanks...I am going to have to buy a case it looks like.  :brickwall:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: firefighter3931 on December 10, 2008, 11:15:03 PM
Quote from: 375instroke on December 07, 2008, 10:08:58 AM

Here's a link to 20 samples of Mobile 1 test results, and they all show zinc and phosphorous.  Why do you say your Mobile 1 has never had zinc in it?

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html


Yes those tests confirm that Zn/Phos is present in the "current" formulations but those levels are inadequate for flat tappet cams. The old formulations (before the EPA mandated BS reduction) had 1400 ppm zinc/phosphorus and therein lies the dilemma. That chart is difinitive proof that anyone running a flat tappet cam needs an EP additive or they risk destroying their hard earned investment.



Ron
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on December 11, 2008, 02:11:29 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 10, 2008, 11:15:03 PM
Quote from: 375instroke on December 07, 2008, 10:08:58 AM

Here's a link to 20 samples of Mobile 1 test results, and they all show zinc and phosphorous.  Why do you say your Mobile 1 has never had zinc in it?

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html


Yes those tests confirm that Zn/Phos is present in the "current" formulations but those levels are inadequate for flat tappet cams. The old formulations (before the EPA mandated BS reduction) had 1400 ppm zinc/phosphorus and therein lies the dilemma. That chart is difinitive proof that anyone running a flat tappet cam needs an EP additive or they risk destroying their hard earned investment.



Ron


Ron,

If "you" ran this oil only,would "you" still use an addative?


The Penn-Grade 1® oils "typical" 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: AKcharger on December 12, 2008, 12:44:42 AM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 11, 2008, 02:11:29 PM


...The Penn-Grade 1® oils "typical" 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P)


Must be an "off-road only" oil at those levels.
:scope:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: y3chargerrt on December 12, 2008, 07:07:53 AM
Price check for GM EOS. I just bought a pint for 25 bucks! Yikes
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on December 12, 2008, 08:20:48 AM
Quote from: AKcharger on December 12, 2008, 12:44:42 AM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 11, 2008, 02:11:29 PM


...The Penn-Grade 1® oils "typical" 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P)


Must be an "off-road only" oil at those levels.
:scope:


Not really.
http://www.bradpennracing.com/

http://www.bradpennracing.com/racingoilline.html
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: firefighter3931 on December 12, 2008, 10:09:36 AM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 11, 2008, 02:11:29 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 10, 2008, 11:15:03 PM
Quote from: 375instroke on December 07, 2008, 10:08:58 AM

Here's a link to 20 samples of Mobile 1 test results, and they all show zinc and phosphorous.  Why do you say your Mobile 1 has never had zinc in it?

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html


Yes those tests confirm that Zn/Phos is present in the "current" formulations but those levels are inadequate for flat tappet cams. The old formulations (before the EPA mandated BS reduction) had 1400 ppm zinc/phosphorus and therein lies the dilemma. That chart is difinitive proof that anyone running a flat tappet cam needs an EP additive or they risk destroying their hard earned investment.



Ron


Ron,

If "you" ran this oil only,would "you" still use an addative?


The Penn-Grade 1® oils "typical" 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P)



Max, if BP is indeed 1400-1500 ppm Zn/Phos then i would have no problem using it without an EP additive.  :2thumbs:

I've seen conflicting VOA results regarding BP oil.....some show 800-900 while others show what you are reporting.  :scratchchin:

Mobil 1 15/50 synthetic was at one point in the 1400-1500 ppm range but has since been reduced. The Mobil 1 "motorcycle" 15/50 is supposed to have lots of EP goodies at the present time....perhaps because motorcycle lube is not held to the same standards as regular passenger car oil.  :shruggy:

Overall, I find the situation frustrating... to say the least !  :P



Ron
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on December 12, 2008, 10:26:56 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 12, 2008, 10:09:36 AM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 11, 2008, 02:11:29 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 10, 2008, 11:15:03 PM
Quote from: 375instroke on December 07, 2008, 10:08:58 AM

Here's a link to 20 samples of Mobile 1 test results, and they all show zinc and phosphorous.  Why do you say your Mobile 1 has never had zinc in it?

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html


Yes those tests confirm that Zn/Phos is present in the "current" formulations but those levels are inadequate for flat tappet cams. The old formulations (before the EPA mandated BS reduction) had 1400 ppm zinc/phosphorus and therein lies the dilemma. That chart is definitive proof that anyone running a flat tappet cam needs an EP additive or they risk destroying their hard earned investment.



Ron


Ron,

If "you" ran this oil only,would "you" still use an additive?


The Penn-Grade 1® oils "typical" 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P)



Max, if BP is indeed 1400-1500 ppm Zn/Phos then i would have no problem using it without an EP additive.  :2thumbs:

I've seen conflicting VOA results regarding BP oil.....some show 800-900 while others show what you are reporting.  :scratchchin:

Mobil 1 15/50 synthetic was at one point in the 1400-1500 ppm range but has since been reduced. The Mobil 1 "motorcycle" 15/50 is supposed to have lots of EP goodies at the present time....perhaps because motorcycle lube is not held to the same standards as regular passenger car oil.  :shruggy:

Overall, I find the situation frustrating... to say the least !  :P



Ron



Ron,I can get an unbiased independent analysis of the BP oil.I have 6 cases and I send our oil samples for our fleet of 50 diesel trucks to http://www.staveleyna.com/public/FLhome.asp for analysis.I can have a sample in the mail on Monday.Usually have results in three days.No comparasion with any one else,just real time analysis.
This I will do and post the results.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on December 12, 2008, 06:29:50 PM
Quote from: y3chargerrt on December 12, 2008, 07:07:53 AM
Price check for GM EOS. I just bought a pint for 25 bucks! Yikes
***25.00 bucks for a pint ??? That's crazy  :brickwall:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on December 12, 2008, 06:35:10 PM
Not as crazy as buying a new cam.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on December 12, 2008, 08:46:32 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on December 12, 2008, 06:35:10 PM
Not as crazy as buying a new cam.


After all the talk about losing a cam,I would really like to know how many out of the thousands sold how many really did. :scratchchin:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: firefighter3931 on December 13, 2008, 09:37:38 AM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 12, 2008, 10:26:56 AM


Ron,I can get an unbiased independent analysis of the BP oil.I have 6 cases and I send our oil samples for our fleet of 50 diesel trucks to http://www.staveleyna.com/public/FLhome.asp for analysis.I can have a sample in the mail on Monday.Usually have results in three days.No comparasion with any one else,just real time analysis.
This I will do and post the results.


That would be awesome Max ! Thank you !!!  :bow:


It would be fantastic to see some "current" results. I've heard nothing but GOOD about the Brad Penn racing oil  :2thumbs:



Ron
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: firefighter3931 on December 13, 2008, 09:41:25 AM
Quote from: ACUDANUT on December 12, 2008, 06:29:50 PM
Quote from: y3chargerrt on December 12, 2008, 07:07:53 AM
Price check for GM EOS. I just bought a pint for 25 bucks! Yikes
***25.00 bucks for a pint ??? That's crazy  :brickwall:


:iagree: Last year i purchased 2 cases (24 pints) at $6.00 each. There must be an online supplier that won't bend you over...whoever sold it to you at that price sure is !  :flame:



Ron
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: y3chargerrt on December 13, 2008, 09:50:58 AM
My local Gm dealer sold it to me. Last spring I think i was $16.00. Bastards!
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on December 13, 2008, 02:11:45 PM
 Ron, where can I find a case that cheap...$6.00 a pint ??
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: General_01 on December 13, 2008, 03:21:04 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 13, 2008, 09:37:38 AM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 12, 2008, 10:26:56 AM


Ron,I can get an unbiased independent analysis of the BP oil.I have 6 cases and I send our oil samples for our fleet of 50 diesel trucks to http://www.staveleyna.com/public/FLhome.asp for analysis.I can have a sample in the mail on Monday.Usually have results in three days.No comparasion with any one else,just real time analysis.
This I will do and post the results.


That would be awesome Max ! Thank you !!!  :bow:


It would be fantastic to see some "current" results. I've heard nothing but GOOD about the Brad Penn racing oil  :2thumbs:



Ron


I agree. That would be a great service for everyone on the board 62. Thanks. :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on December 13, 2008, 07:52:49 PM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 12, 2008, 08:46:32 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on December 12, 2008, 06:35:10 PM
Not as crazy as buying a new cam.


After all the talk about losing a cam,I would really like to know how many out of the thousands sold how many really did. :scratchchin:

I only know of three that it happened to personally but I can add that there is only one that I actually care about (if you know what I mean).
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: General_01 on December 13, 2008, 07:57:56 PM
Usually when something like that happens, I am not to concerned with how many times per thousand cams it happened to. Just that it happened to my cam and now I gotta pull it. Just as Ghoste has alluded to.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Runner on December 13, 2008, 11:26:30 PM
i lost a cam that had been fine for 10 years.   im pretty gun shy on the camshafter and oil issues now
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: maxwellwedge on January 04, 2009, 09:59:48 PM
I use Joe Gibbs oil in all my old Mopes. A lot of the others mentioned are good as well.

BR for break-in and "Hot Rod Oil" after that.  http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/hotrod/index.html

Nice blurb on oils   http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/Downloads/racingoil101.pdf

I know, I know - He races Toyota's - Don't matter to me. There was a rash of wiped cams the last few years from a bunch of engine builders I know. There is an old saying, " You can't not afford a good doctor or a good lawyer". Same goes for my cars....Super Cheap insurance at whatever price they are asking.  :Twocents:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on January 05, 2009, 09:29:49 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 04, 2009, 09:59:48 PM
I use Joe Gibbs oil in all my old Mopes. A lot of the others mentioned are good as well.

BR for break-in and "Hot Rod Oil" after that.  http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/hotrod/index.html

Nice blurb on oils   http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/Downloads/racingoil101.pdf

I know, I know - He races Toyota's - Don't matter to me. There was a rash of wiped cams the last few years from a bunch of engine builders I know. There is an old saying, " You can't not afford a good doctor or a good lawyer". Same goes for my cars....Super Cheap insurance at whatever price they are asking.  :Twocents:

I would rather know who's oil it is.Don't think Joe has his own refinery. :scratchchin:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ted on January 06, 2009, 01:28:53 PM
Quote from: Wango Mango on August 22, 2008, 02:04:51 PM
Check out www.bobistheoilguy.com   its quite a site dedicated to lubricants & there's a wealth of info on the passenger car rorum & racing forum.  I switched to Brad Penn 1 Racing Oil (the real 'green' oil that used to be Kendall GT1).  It has 1300 ppm of zinc & lots of phosphorus.  Valvonine VR1 is also high in zinc & highly rated.   Some tests they did that are on the site don't recommend additives since they compromise the formulas that the oils were designed with.  Check out the website.

and most of the regulars there say this is a non issue
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ted on January 06, 2009, 01:57:47 PM
mobil says the current re-released 15-50 is over 1200ppm
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: maxwellwedge on January 06, 2009, 09:01:45 PM
Quote from: 62 Max on January 05, 2009, 09:29:49 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 04, 2009, 09:59:48 PM
I use Joe Gibbs oil in all my old Mopes. A lot of the others mentioned are good as well.

BR for break-in and "Hot Rod Oil" after that.  http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/hotrod/index.html

Nice blurb on oils   http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/Downloads/racingoil101.pdf

I know, I know - He races Toyota's - Don't matter to me. There was a rash of wiped cams the last few years from a bunch of engine builders I know. There is an old saying, " You can't not afford a good doctor or a good lawyer". Same goes for my cars....Super Cheap insurance at whatever price they are asking.  :Twocents:


I would rather know who's oil it is.Don't think Joe has his own refinery. :scratchchin:

I think it is made by Motul out of Europe
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: General_01 on January 06, 2009, 09:50:34 PM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 12, 2008, 10:26:56 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 12, 2008, 10:09:36 AM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 11, 2008, 02:11:29 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 10, 2008, 11:15:03 PM
Quote from: 375instroke on December 07, 2008, 10:08:58 AM

Here's a link to 20 samples of Mobile 1 test results, and they all show zinc and phosphorous.  Why do you say your Mobile 1 has never had zinc in it?

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html


Yes those tests confirm that Zn/Phos is present in the "current" formulations but those levels are inadequate for flat tappet cams. The old formulations (before the EPA mandated BS reduction) had 1400 ppm zinc/phosphorus and therein lies the dilemma. That chart is definitive proof that anyone running a flat tappet cam needs an EP additive or they risk destroying their hard earned investment.



Ron


Ron,

If "you" ran this oil only,would "you" still use an additive?


The Penn-Grade 1® oils "typical" 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P)



Max, if BP is indeed 1400-1500 ppm Zn/Phos then i would have no problem using it without an EP additive.  :2thumbs:

I've seen conflicting VOA results regarding BP oil.....some show 800-900 while others show what you are reporting.  :scratchchin:

Mobil 1 15/50 synthetic was at one point in the 1400-1500 ppm range but has since been reduced. The Mobil 1 "motorcycle" 15/50 is supposed to have lots of EP goodies at the present time....perhaps because motorcycle lube is not held to the same standards as regular passenger car oil.  :shruggy:

Overall, I find the situation frustrating... to say the least !  :P



Ron



Ron,I can get an unbiased independent analysis of the BP oil.I have 6 cases and I send our oil samples for our fleet of 50 diesel trucks to http://www.staveleyna.com/public/FLhome.asp for analysis.I can have a sample in the mail on Monday.Usually have results in three days.No comparasion with any one else,just real time analysis.
This I will do and post the results.

Hey Max, did you ever get results on the oil?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on January 08, 2009, 01:34:40 PM
Anyone keeping track of what cam-valve spring combos are failing,some of us use very strong springs.I was impressed by how much more valve spring pressure the P3690933 springs had over the stock used ones and that force ends up on the cam lobe.With a "resto" cam (P4452783) I'm far from some of the extreme ends others may have to deal with, but I needed durability over horse power/high RPM.I switched to Valvoline Racing as soon as I read this and am very lucky my car did not rack up many miles since a total rebuild of the 440!
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on January 08, 2009, 03:22:56 PM
Quote from: General_01 on January 06, 2009, 09:50:34 PM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 12, 2008, 10:26:56 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 12, 2008, 10:09:36 AM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 11, 2008, 02:11:29 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 10, 2008, 11:15:03 PM
Quote from: 375instroke on December 07, 2008, 10:08:58 AM

Here's a link to 20 samples of Mobile 1 test results, and they all show zinc and phosphorous.  Why do you say your Mobile 1 has never had zinc in it?

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html


Yes those tests confirm that Zn/Phos is present in the "current" formulations but those levels are inadequate for flat tappet cams. The old formulations (before the EPA mandated BS reduction) had 1400 ppm zinc/phosphorus and therein lies the dilemma. That chart is definitive proof that anyone running a flat tappet cam needs an EP additive or they risk destroying their hard earned investment.



Ron


Ron,

If "you" ran this oil only,would "you" still use an additive?


The Penn-Grade 1® oils "typical" 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P)



Max, if BP is indeed 1400-1500 ppm Zn/Phos then i would have no problem using it without an EP additive.  :2thumbs:

I've seen conflicting VOA results regarding BP oil.....some show 800-900 while others show what you are reporting.  :scratchchin:

Mobil 1 15/50 synthetic was at one point in the 1400-1500 ppm range but has since been reduced. The Mobil 1 "motorcycle" 15/50 is supposed to have lots of EP goodies at the present time....perhaps because motorcycle lube is not held to the same standards as regular passenger car oil.  :shruggy:

Overall, I find the situation frustrating... to say the least !  :P



Ron



Ron,I can get an unbiased independent analysis of the BP oil.I have 6 cases and I send our oil samples for our fleet of 50 diesel trucks to http://www.staveleyna.com/public/FLhome.asp for analysis.I can have a sample in the mail on Monday.Usually have results in three days.No comparasion with any one else,just real time analysis.
This I will do and post the results.

Hey Max, did you ever get results on the oil?


Should have it this coming Monday,I didn't forget! :icon_smile_big:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: idahogrumpy on January 17, 2009, 01:07:38 PM
I thought that this needed to be here with the discussion.

I work for a New Holland agricultural dealership and I was curious with all of the over the counter oil going the way of the new epa regulations how our New Holland oil stacked up, here is what I found.
                  10W  10W30  30      15W40   20W50   .    .    .    .    .
Cst @ 40c    42    80    108     112        157
Cst @ 100c    7.0    11.6   12.1    14.8       18.0
Viscosity Index 105    133    105    136       135
Borderline pumping temperature, C (F)
         -33 (-27)  -33 (-27) -20 (-4) -29 (-20) -20 (-4)
Zinc, wt %
   0.17    0.17    0.17    0.17    0.17
Sulfated Ash, wt%
   1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5
TBN (ASTM D-2896)    12    12    12    12    12

NH-AmbrA MasterGold HSP Engine Oil

CJ-4 ENGINE OILS
The newest API Service Category for Diesel engine lubricants is CJ-4. This new category is designed for 2007 engines and on-highway diesel emission requirements in combination with Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel, ULSF. Equivalent emission requirements for off-highway engines will not phase in until 2011-2012.

At this time, CNH engine engineering has decided not to change Case No. 1 and New Holland Mastergold HSP Engine oils to meet CJ-4.  Taking into account off-highway higher sulfur fuels and higher load factors, CNH feels that the current formulations are the most appropriate at this time. Reformulating the engine oils to meet CJ-4 would mean a reduction of the zinc anti-wear additive and lower Total Base Number than current products, and result in higher cost.

Additionally, several trade publications and competitive OEMs have expressed concern over maintaining current drain intervals with CJ-4 oils in off-highway severe duty applications.

Now if I am reading this correctly New Holland tractor oil should keep our for Mopars going for years to come.
Just a thought,,,, Kyle
ps
I was told that the zinc content is at 1700 parts per million. That should be enough to protect our solid camshafts & lifters.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on January 18, 2009, 06:43:43 PM
 Tractor Oil ??  Do they have 10-40 ??  I doubt it  :shruggy:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: firefighter3931 on January 21, 2009, 10:04:08 AM
Ok guys, here is some current data courtesy of Max 62  :bow: > thanks Bill for taking the time to have this VOA report commissioned and sharing the results.  :2thumbs:

Below is a report on the Brad Penn 20/50 racing oil. Looks very good to me....lots of EP additives (Zn/Phos) for flat tappet cam protection. I would have no problem using this lube in any engine of mine.  ;)


Ron
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on January 21, 2009, 12:07:59 PM
 USING 20-50 oil here in the midwest (especially in the winter) is a NO-NO. The oil is too thick and cannot circulate as well to keep an entire engine properly lubricated in the cold.  This is what my Mechanical Engineering folks tell me.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on January 21, 2009, 01:08:37 PM
Once the engine has reached operating temperature I would find that hard to believe.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: General_01 on January 21, 2009, 04:53:21 PM
Nice numbers on the oil. Thanks Max. :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on January 21, 2009, 06:35:30 PM
Quote from: 62 Max on January 21, 2009, 01:08:37 PM
Once the engine has reached operating temperature I would find that hard to believe.
Good point, but it does take 10-15 minutes to reach normal operating temp.  20-50 is still a thick oil, and it does sound like a good point to argue/study on what it's best used for.  :shruggy:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: challenger70 on February 23, 2009, 12:21:43 PM
So can you mix the ZDDPlus with Mobil 1?  Does it even really matter if it blends with the oil as long as it gets pumpe dthrough the engine along with the oil?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: histoy on February 23, 2009, 08:04:42 PM
Eastwood carries ZDDPlus.  I bought the 3 pack today for $26.99.   They also sell a 10 pack for $89.99.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 70sixpkrt on February 23, 2009, 08:05:57 PM
I am using Delo 400 with a bottle of Comp Cam break in lube. Every time I change the oil, I add a bottle of it. I am also running the EDM lifters.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: challenger70 on February 24, 2009, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: histoy on February 23, 2009, 08:04:42 PM
Eastwood carries ZDDPlus.  I bought the 3 pack today for $26.99.   They also sell a 10 pack for $89.99.

Yeah I found it there and I got 2 3 packs, once you get the discount for the 3 pack over the single bottle it's the same $ per bottle as the 10 pack actually slightly cheaper.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 426HemiCharger on February 27, 2009, 09:42:16 PM
Royal Purple has a Break-in oil with high zinc and Mopar has and oil filter that is specially designed to catch metal slivers. Try it!!! :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on February 27, 2009, 09:42:57 PM
Do you have a part number on that oil filter?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 426HemiCharger on February 27, 2009, 09:52:00 PM
Not exactly an oil filter but a two-piece system, from The Paddock Parts   Oil Filter - PAD02801    Magnet - ACC365S.   Catalog Page 128.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: BLUE68RT4ME on March 23, 2009, 12:40:38 PM
My friends are AMSOil distributors and they use it in everything, especially their race cars.  They do use the diesel blend as Firefighter mentioned earlier.  Synthetics maintain a balanced pressure so much better throughout the temp ranges, the conditioners keep everything so much cleaner, and they lube so much better in my experiences.  I use AMSOil in everything I run, not trying to be a salesman.    I know you pay more but, to me, it's worth it.  Besides, at least with AMSOil, it's guaranteed for 25K miles or 1 year.  So, it costs about 4x as much but lasts more than 8x as long.   :Twocents:  In any case, protect yourself!!!   :icon_smile_big:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on March 24, 2009, 04:11:17 PM
Quote from: BLUE68RT4ME on March 23, 2009, 12:40:38 PM
My friends are AMSOil distributors and they use it in everything, especially their race cars.  They do use the diesel blend as Firefighter mentioned earlier.  Synthetics maintain a balanced pressure so much better throughout the temp ranges, the conditioners keep everything so much cleaner, and they lube so much better in my experiences.  I use AMSOil in everything I run, not trying to be a salesman.    I know you pay more but, to me, it's worth it.  Besides, at least with AMSOil, it's guaranteed for 25K miles or 1 year.  So, it costs about 4x as much but lasts more than 8x as long.   :Twocents:  In any case, protect yourself!!!   :icon_smile_big:

Guaranteed to what extent.Too many variables to make a claim like that. :Twocents:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: BLUE68RT4ME on March 24, 2009, 08:01:25 PM
Well, the warrantee is online:  http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1363.pdf

It's not something without limitations, I don't think anyone would honestly think that.  If you have more questions here is the site:  http://www.amsoil.com/index.aspx  If you have questions, there is plenty of information there for you.

:2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: brianz426 on March 25, 2009, 09:04:27 PM
Quote from: BLUE68RT4ME on March 24, 2009, 08:01:25 PM
Well, the warrantee is online:  http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1363.pdf

It's not something without limitations, I don't think anyone would honestly think that.  If you have more questions here is the site:  http://www.amsoil.com/index.aspx  If you have questions, there is plenty of information there for you.

:2thumbs:
I noticed on the Amsoil web site that in their description of the 10w-40 oil they mention it is formulated for vehicles with flat tappet cams. It is supposed to have extra zinc in it. Anyone using this oil? Is there any benefits or problems with adding zinc to an oil that already contains it?
Thanks
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: BLUE68RT4ME on March 25, 2009, 09:45:55 PM
I can make a phone call to my friends to confirm, but I think they just simply do with the diesel formula instead of adding anything to the oil.  Let me get back to you...
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: BLUE68RT4ME on March 25, 2009, 10:04:02 PM
Good thing I called, they use the 10W-40 in all the hot rods.  No need for additive.  They use the 5W diesel in all their daily driver cars (i.e. Acura and Honda) just for added protection.  These guys are Chevy guys, don't hold it against them, but one's running a 615 HP stroked small block and the other about 425 HP small block.  They said they think other good choices are Royal Purple and Lucas, like I believe it was Firefighter said earlier.  Hope that helps!   :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on March 26, 2009, 09:43:07 AM
AMSOIL ? The parts stores around here do not carry it, and the price to have a case shipped would be even more costly.  :Twocents: :shruggy:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: BLUE68RT4ME on March 26, 2009, 09:55:48 AM
There is a dealer finder on the site, in most areas of the country (but not all!) there is a dealer within a few miles.  You can call them and pick up as much as you need just as you would any parts store.  Some may need a couple days notice depending on their inventory.  I'm not saying anyone has to do it, I'm just offering it as ONE viable solution.   :icon_smile_big:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: brianz426 on March 26, 2009, 09:26:54 PM
Quote from: BLUE68RT4ME on March 25, 2009, 10:04:02 PM
Good thing I called, they use the 10W-40 in all the hot rods.  No need for additive.  They use the 5W diesel in all their daily driver cars (i.e. Acura and Honda) just for added protection.  These guys are Chevy guys, don't hold it against them, but one's running a 615 HP stroked small block and the other about 425 HP small block.  They said they think other good choices are Royal Purple and Lucas, like I believe it was Firefighter said earlier.  Hope that helps!   :2thumbs:
:yesnod: Yes that's good news for me. I've only recently heard of the problems that the lack of zinc causes. I've been using the Amsoil 10w-40 in my old cars. I bought a couple of cases early last year to beat a price increase. None of my labels say anything about added zinc like the new labels. I have'nt had any problems so far so I'll continue to use the Amsoil.
Thanks for the info. :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bill440rt on April 13, 2009, 07:51:54 PM
BTW, just ordered a few bottles of ZDDP from this eBay seller:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/6-ZddPlus-ZDDP-Engine-Oil-Additive-Zinc-and-Phosphorus_W0QQitemZ310132694680QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item310132694680&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

With my bid it came in roughly at $7 per bottle. Free shipping to boot.

The big question is: Should I/can I mix this with Castrol Syntec synthetic, or should I switch back to dino oil? I used to run Castrol GTX 10/w40 before switching to synthetic.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on April 13, 2009, 08:19:23 PM
Dino oil??
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bill440rt on April 13, 2009, 08:29:53 PM
Regular oil.  :D
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on April 13, 2009, 09:07:28 PM
WOW Dino oil...that took me back...use to be this BIG green Dino shaped gas station. Like a Brontosaurus
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on April 13, 2009, 09:10:19 PM
Yep, Sinclair.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 426HemiCharger on April 13, 2009, 09:25:12 PM
I was about to say that but I was afraid it would have been wrong.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on April 14, 2009, 05:54:39 AM
That's it!  :cheers: I use to beg my dad to get gas there! They even had a machine you put quarters in and it made you a T Rex out of "wax" like plastic right before your eyes! (that stuff burned like napalm  :D )
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bill440rt on April 15, 2009, 09:54:37 AM
Quote from: bill440rt on April 13, 2009, 07:51:54 PM

The big question is: Should I/can I mix this with Castrol Syntec synthetic, or should I switch back to dino oil? I used to run Castrol GTX 10/w40 before switching to synthetic.


Does anyone have a definitive answer on this?
Is it OK to use ZDDP in synthetic, or should it be used in synthetic? OR, should I switch back to regular oil with the ZDDP?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: BLUE68RT4ME on April 15, 2009, 10:12:13 AM
Quote from: bill440rt on April 15, 2009, 09:54:37 AM

Does anyone have a definitive answer on this?
Is it OK to use ZDDP in synthetic, or should it be used in synthetic? OR, should I switch back to regular oil with the ZDDP?

I'm sure it will be fine.  As we've discussed already, many other synthetics have zink in it, like AMSOil and Royal Purple, so this shouldn't be any different.  If you are still unsure, I suggest you either call the 800 number on your oil manufaturers bottle, visit their website, or just change to another synthetic that already has it in.

It's been my experience Castrol isn't the greatest out there anyway.  It was suggested for my Jetta 1.8T.  When I switched to AMSOil I got 4 MPG better on the highway alone.  And when I parked in my inclined driveway I would normally just leave it in 1st gear but when I switched to AMSOil I had to hold my foot on the brake until the oil drained from the cylinder walls because they were so much more slippery that the car would roll backwards until the walls were dry.

Anyway, if you stick with Castrol I still think it's fine to add it but I would make sure.  They may get funny and dance around the question because of liability issues but it's worth checking out.  But, if they do give you a hassle, it's as easy to drop the plug and put in another brand that has it.  It's your pride and joy, and it's worth it!  :)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 73 charger on April 20, 2009, 08:49:20 PM
High Performance Engine Technical Tips
Get expert advice on your high performance stroker & crate engine applications






Shell Rotella T on the left and Lucas Oil Break-in Additive #10063 on the right

Updated engine oil requirements

(April 30, 2008)

In recent years, auto manufacturers have switched to roller camshafts for performance and fuel economy reasons. This combined with the EPA requirements for reduced emissions, has led to the reduction of zinc diakyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP). This lower zinc content will not properly lubricate the flat tappet hydraulic lifters we use on the majority of our engines.

Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 (new API CJ-4) has approximately 1200 ppm zinc (indicative of the amount of ZDDP additive). This is 50% more zinc than current passenger car motor oils (SM, GF-4) which typically contain approximately 800 ppm zinc. Passenger car motor oils had approximately 1200 ppm zinc prior to 2001. In 2001 the zinc was reduced to 1000 ppm and in 2005 reduced again to the current 800 ppm. These are typical zinc levels, API ratings do not stipulate the zinc content, but the oil performance.

Therefore, we are recommending the use of Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 (new API CJ-4) during the initial start up and during the break in period of your Blueprint engine.

If you wish to use another brand of 15w40 oil, you must use a break-in additive such as Lucas Oil Break-in Additive #10063(which also increases the zinc content). After the critical break in period (normally 3000-4000 miles), synthetic oils such as Royal Purple can be used.
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Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bill440rt on April 22, 2009, 03:18:52 PM
Not sure if this has been posted or not, but there's lots of good info regarding ZDDP here:

http://www.zddplus.com/

I just had a nice phone conversation with them regarding their product, the rep was very knowledgeable & informative.
:2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on April 22, 2009, 07:57:13 PM
Hey Bill! Do I need a secret decoder ring to find the price of this stuff?  :shruggy: 
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bill440rt on April 23, 2009, 08:42:09 PM
Quote from: bill440rt on April 13, 2009, 07:51:54 PM
BTW, just ordered a few bottles of ZDDP from this eBay seller:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/6-ZddPlus-ZDDP-Engine-Oil-Additive-Zinc-and-Phosphorus_W0QQitemZ310132694680QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item310132694680&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

With my bid it came in roughly at $7 per bottle. Free shipping to boot.

The big question is: Should I/can I mix this with Castrol Syntec synthetic, or should I switch back to dino oil? I used to run Castrol GTX 10/w40 before switching to synthetic.

Hi Neal,
I posted this previously, just a little bit up this page.  :D
This was the best price I could find, other places want like $8 bucks per bottle plus shipping, this seller includes shipping.
I called him first with questions, he referred me to Howard over at ZDDP directly. Very informative, & the website has alot of FAQ's.
I referred him to this thread, he was just a little hesitant to join or respond as he didn't want to come across plugging his product. I guess he had some bad experiences on some other GM boards.

Anyway, using a chart, one 4 oz bottle to my 7qts of Castrol Syntec will give me the exact amount of zinc my engine requires. It's OK to use it with synthetic.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on April 24, 2009, 06:11:39 AM
Thank allot Bill! I must have missed that post! Ive followed this thread with great interest since I first got here.(the first thing I did was not start my car till I changed to Valvoline Racing Oil) Keep us posted on the six pack build!
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 426HemiCharger on April 30, 2009, 08:32:10 PM
Too bad Sinclair doesn't make gas anymore. :'(
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on April 30, 2009, 08:36:28 PM
Quote from: 426HemiCharger on April 30, 2009, 08:32:10 PM
Too bad Sinclair doesn't make gas anymore. :'(

Actually they do but it doesn't really have anything to do with zinc levels and flat tappet cams.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Just 6T9 CHGR on May 22, 2009, 08:27:49 PM
FWIW I just switched over to Valvoline VR1 20w-50 which is labled high in zinc/phosphorous for pushrod & flat tappet engines

#

Quote

#

What is the controversy surrounding the amount of zinc in motor oil?

Many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts believe the lower levels of zinc in "SM" motor oil is causing excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. This is despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible. This has resulted in the widely accepted belief that modern motor oil is not adequate to protect older engines.
#

What solutions does Valvoline offer to the zinc issue?

Valvoline offers two solutions to the zinc issue:

   1. Valvoline VR1: Contains 75% higher zinc than SM motor oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. Valvoline provides this product in both multi and mono viscosity grades: 20w50, straight 50, 10w30, straight 30, straight 40, and straight 60.
   2. Longer-Lasting Zinc/Phosphorus: Valvoline uses an advanced zinc/phosphorus additive that keeps higher levels of phosphorus in the motor oil where it protects the engine instead of poisoning the catalytic converter. Valvoline is the only brand offering this unique additive across its entire line of passenger car motor oils including SynPower -- the only synthetic offering this additive.





Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or "Not Street Legal" oil?

Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13% of Zinc and .12% of Phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil which contains .14% of Zinc and .13% of Phosphorus.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: charger Downunder on May 23, 2009, 08:03:50 AM
Here is an update on zinc from the Penrite sie.
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pdfs/149%20LATEST%20ZINC%20LEVELS.pdf
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 69chargerrt on June 06, 2009, 03:53:11 PM
Does anyone know of a zinc additive called "Hy-per Lube Zinc Replacement Additive" (www.hyperlube.com (http://www.hyperlube.com))?   Is it any good?   For $16/bottle, it'd better be....


David

Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: c00nhunterjoe on June 07, 2009, 12:24:08 AM
alright, i am well overdue on an oil change as the car has been sitting for "a few" years. just did a bunch of work and got it road worthy again. i am thinking of running mobil delvac diesel oil in 15w40. will that give me the protection i need?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: c00nhunterjoe on June 10, 2009, 04:27:33 PM
anybody?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 73 charger on June 10, 2009, 07:24:02 PM
From Blue Print Engines web site!

High Performance Engine Technical Tips
Get expert advice on your high performance stroker & crate engine applications






Shell Rotella T on the left and Lucas Oil Break-in Additive #10063 on the right

Updated engine oil requirements

(April 30, 2008)

In recent years, auto manufacturers have switched to roller camshafts for performance and fuel economy reasons. This combined with the EPA requirements for reduced emissions, has led to the reduction of zinc diakyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP). This lower zinc content will not properly lubricate the flat tappet hydraulic lifters we use on the majority of our engines.

Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 (new API CJ-4) has approximately 1200 ppm zinc (indicative of the amount of ZDDP additive). This is 50% more zinc than current passenger car motor oils (SM, GF-4) which typically contain approximately 800 ppm zinc. Passenger car motor oils had approximately 1200 ppm zinc prior to 2001. In 2001 the zinc was reduced to 1000 ppm and in 2005 reduced again to the current 800 ppm. These are typical zinc levels, API ratings do not stipulate the zinc content, but the oil performance.

Therefore, we are recommending the use of Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 (new API CJ-4) during the initial start up and during the break in period of your Blueprint engine.

If you wish to use another brand of 15w40 oil, you must use a break-in additive such as Lucas Oil Break-in Additive #10063(which also increases the zinc content). After the critical break in period (normally 3000-4000 miles), synthetic oils such as Royal Purple can be used.
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Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: c00nhunterjoe on June 10, 2009, 08:48:08 PM
so then you are saying mobil delvac is not good enough? and neither is rotella? still need to run the additives?

i have yet to find this stuff at any parts dealer in my area. advance, autozone, napa and kunkels.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on June 10, 2009, 08:54:15 PM
The diesel oils were a secret source of higher zinc motor oil for a while but no longer.  You are basically going to have to go to one of the specialty oils and/or use a zinc additive as indicated through this thread.  There should be a few other sources than the ones you have tried.  Do you have GM dealer in town?  There is still GM EOS.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: c00nhunterjoe on June 10, 2009, 09:46:11 PM
yes i have a few gm dealers, is there a part number or will the kid at the parts counter know what i want when i ask for zinz supplements
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on June 10, 2009, 09:52:20 PM
Part number is 88862586 but be prepared because Government Motors doesn't give the stuff away.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: c00nhunterjoe on June 10, 2009, 10:00:23 PM
how bad are we talkin? and how much do i need?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on June 10, 2009, 10:10:23 PM
You'll only need one but from what I've been hearing the going rate seems to be around 24 bucks a bottle.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: c00nhunterjoe on June 10, 2009, 10:16:03 PM
 :eek: :flush:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on June 11, 2009, 09:19:02 AM
Look in your oils for "Off Road" and check the mix...no need for 25.00 additives. look for "Racing" ect.  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: squeakfinder on June 11, 2009, 06:18:19 PM
 I got a bottle of Zzdp plus at a local parts house about a month and a half ago. It was around 10 buck's.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 74roadrunner440 on June 16, 2009, 05:55:03 PM
so why not post what a guy should get or buy and does it affect hydrolic lifters too not just solid lifters any sugjestions would be help full im rebuilding my 440 and if i need or should change any thing please let me know email me at m16king@netscape.net what oil should i buy is my ? with hight zink or should i put roller cam lifters and rockers can some one let m eknow what a guy should do im not going to put thousans of dollar in to this motor to have to rebild it again thanks pat
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: c00nhunterjoe on June 16, 2009, 07:34:40 PM
if its not roller its affected. so yes, you need the additive as well.  from what i have gathered from this it is a dealer part in my area. no aftermarktet parts places know what i am asking for.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on June 17, 2009, 06:44:02 AM
This is very much about hydraulic lifters as well.  A roller cam is an option but it isn't a cheap proposition and with the variety of zinc additives coming to the market now you shouldn't have to.  As to specific cominations, read through the whole thread and you should be able to easily come up with one of your own.  There are a few additives out there now and they all seem like they are doing the job.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on June 17, 2009, 07:13:25 AM
Ghoste is right a flat tappet is any lifter that isn't roller! Slant six to Hemi...that's why this thread is so important. I still think this is just another way to get old cars off the road. I'll bet there are old cars dropping left and right all across the country by now.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Long Island RT on June 22, 2009, 11:08:16 PM
Anybody try this stuff?

"Product Description

Hughes Extreme Pressure Oil Additive - (1 Pint)
Over the past 10 years or so all cam manufacturers have seen an increase in flat tappet cam failures, particularly in the high performance arena. We have spent close to a year researching oils and additives to try and find a product that could eliminate this problem. We have found it! Hughes Engines Extreme Pressure Lubricant is a state of the art additive package that is compatible with standard (mineral based) oils or synthetics. To complement this highly specialized additive package a proven friction modifier, Micron Moly® is further blended into the oil treatment. Micron Moly® is a liquid soluble type of moly that plates to the metal surfaces of the engine. Once plated, the moly forms a long lasting lubricant film which prevents the metal surfaces from coming into contact with each other. By preventing metal to metal contact, damaging frictional wear is eliminated, which leads to less downtime and longer engine life. This additive should be used with all flat tappet camshafts. We suggest using this with your break-in oil and at every oil change. One pint will treat up to 5 quarts of oil.

Soluble molybdenum carbamate integrates into your base oil and cannot be filtered out by the oil filter like many other after market additives do. Why do we sell this particular Extreme Pressure Lube? Simple. Our first priority is to give our cams long life and this product does just that. We are happy to share this technology with others who have flat tappet cams who have had to struggle with this same issue.

Soluble Molybdenum carbamate has been used for 50 years or more in the industrial and H.D. trucking industry. We are offering this product as an oil additive. Hughes Engines Extreme Pressure Oil additive is recommended specifically for flat tappet camshafts in all applications. It can be added to any oil, good or crap. It will not affect catalytic converters. Yes, you can use it with roller cams, too! It is super slippery (slick) so if your rocker, pushrod tips and wrist pins live longer, don't be surprised. With products like this you can expect manufacturer claims of, better mileage, improved fuel mileage and reduced oil consumption, stops global warming, helps you lose weight etc...... All of that is possible, I suppose, but we kow it will protct your cam & lifters. That is why we use it and recommend it.
$9.95
MREHU3690
"
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on June 23, 2009, 05:39:22 PM
Quote from: Long Island RT on June 22, 2009, 11:08:16 PM
Anybody try this stuff?

"Product Description

Hughes Extreme Pressure Oil Additive - (1 Pint)
Over the past 10 years or so all cam manufacturers have seen an increase in flat tappet cam failures, particularly in the high performance arena. We have spent close to a year researching oils and additives to try and find a product that could eliminate this problem. We have found it! Hughes Engines Extreme Pressure Lubricant is a state of the art additive package that is compatible with standard (mineral based) oils or synthetics. To complement this highly specialized additive package a proven friction modifier, Micron Moly® is further blended into the oil treatment. Micron Moly® is a liquid soluble type of moly that plates to the metal surfaces of the engine. Once plated, the moly forms a long lasting lubricant film which prevents the metal surfaces from coming into contact with each other. By preventing metal to metal contact, damaging frictional wear is eliminated, which leads to less downtime and longer engine life. This additive should be used with all flat tappet camshafts. We suggest using this with your break-in oil and at every oil change. One pint will treat up to 5 quarts of oil.

Soluble molybdenum carbamate integrates into your base oil and cannot be filtered out by the oil filter like many other after market additives do. Why do we sell this particular Extreme Pressure Lube? Simple. Our first priority is to give our cams long life and this product does just that. We are happy to share this technology with others who have flat tappet cams who have had to struggle with this same issue.

Soluble Molybdenum carbamate has been used for 50 years or more in the industrial and H.D. trucking industry. We are offering this product as an oil additive. Hughes Engines Extreme Pressure Oil additive is recommended specifically for flat tappet camshafts in all applications. It can be added to any oil, good or crap. It will not affect catalytic converters. Yes, you can use it with roller cams, too! It is super slippery (slick) so if your rocker, pushrod tips and wrist pins live longer, don't be surprised. With products like this you can expect manufacturer claims of, better mileage, improved fuel mileage and reduced oil consumption, stops global warming, helps you lose weight etc...... All of that is possible, I suppose, but we kow it will protct your cam & lifters. That is why we use it and recommend it.
$9.95
MREHU3690
"

Good info. You forget to give a link.  Here it is: http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/203engineoils.php
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: c00nhunterjoe on July 03, 2009, 02:24:03 PM
no gm dealers in my area carry eos, 1 week to order, 9.35 per qt, not too bad.
walked next door to chrslyer- they said that chrysler does not make a substitute anymore, i gave thm the part number off this thread and they said it is no good.   so long story short until i can get some braddpenn i picked up vr-1 for now, it seems to be the next best thing at almost 1100 ppm zinc
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bordin34 on August 13, 2009, 05:23:12 PM
I e-mailed Shell today asking about ZDDP levels and this is the response I got.
"Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oil SAE 15W-40 contains approximately 1200
ppm zinc.  Shell Rotella T Synthetic Oil SAE 5W-40 is formulated with
about 1300 ppm zinc."
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: The70RT on August 13, 2009, 05:45:43 PM
I met a guy at one of our cruise nights and he had problem with his 426 Hemi Cam. He said some lobes went flat at around 10K. He more less laughed at me when I mentioned EOS.......He said that was the old days and new parts don't need it anymore............I guess he will find out sooner or later.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on August 14, 2009, 08:14:50 AM
He will know pretty soon too!  :smilielol:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Road Dog on August 14, 2009, 09:51:56 AM
Should a guy with 200,000 miles on his 440 worry about the zinc or is it just the new rebuilds during the break in periods?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Musicman on August 14, 2009, 09:56:58 AM
Quote from: Long Island RT on June 22, 2009, 11:08:16 PM

Anybody try this stuff?


I have never tried "that particular product", but I remember when you could buy oil that already had it premixed. You added one quart of the premixed oil at each oil change, along with your regular oil. Average Joe didn't like it however because the oil was black, which made your new oil look dirty... therefore they couldn't tell when it was time to change their oil.  :scratchchin: :D :smilielol: :brickwall: ...so they stopped making it for average Joe.

Thanks for posting the link... I didn't know that you could still get the stuff... Greatest sh** in the world as far as I'm concerned. :2thumbs: Far better than any of that gimmicky oil additive crap they started packaging after that. I used it for a great many years until they stopped packaging it in your regular everyday motor oils... I have been using RESTORE ever since (it's a close relative).
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Musicman on August 14, 2009, 10:05:49 AM
Quote from: Road Dog on August 14, 2009, 09:51:56 AM
Should a guy with 200,000 miles on his 440 worry about the zinc or is it just the new rebuilds during the break in periods?

The break in period is absolutely critical... after that, the concern is less because the cam and lifters have formed their permanent bond in terms of their final shape. None-the-less, there is still metal to metal contact under high pressures, so a good quality lubricant is still a must.  :Twocents:

We just had a fella on another site that used all the right stuff for the break in on his new build, ...but for reasons unknown, he forgot to use a good quality oil or an additive when he did the first oil change... he made it 200 miles.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: The70RT on August 14, 2009, 05:38:03 PM
Quote from: Musicman on August 14, 2009, 10:05:49 AM
Quote from: Road Dog on August 14, 2009, 09:51:56 AM
Should a guy with 200,000 miles on his 440 worry about the zinc or is it just the new rebuilds during the break in periods?

The break in period is absolutely critical... after that, the concern is less because the cam and lifters have formed their permanent bond in terms of their final shape. None-the-less, there is still metal to metal contact under high pressures, so a good quality lubricant is still a must.  :Twocents:

We just had a fella on another site that used all the right stuff for the break in on his new build, ...but for reasons unknown, he forgot to use a good quality oil or an additive when he did the first oil change... he made it 200 miles.


Damnnnnnnnnnnnn  :o
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on August 15, 2009, 08:46:31 AM
All that steel washing down everywhere  :eek2:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: elacruze on September 07, 2009, 09:01:14 PM
Just because I like to stir the pot, and have plenty of my own 'anecdotal' experience with oil additives;

http://www.sunley.ca/oil_add.htm

Keep in mind while you read, that this article is from 1992, only a couple years into the 'roller cam revolution'. Most cars on the road still had flat-tappet cams in them.

Now what?

Eric
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Road Dog on September 17, 2009, 10:36:21 AM
I just changed my oil a few weeks ago. Valvoline makes oil for engines with flat tappet cams (says so in big letters right on the bottle). Put in some 20-50. Oil is pretty pricey though.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: The70RT on September 17, 2009, 06:43:34 PM
Quote from: Road Dog on September 17, 2009, 10:36:21 AM
I just changed my oil a few weeks ago. Valvoline makes oil for engines with flat tappet cams (says so in big letters right on the bottle). Put in some 20-50. Oil is pretty pricey though.

Was it on the shelf and where here did you buy it at?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: six-pack speedshop on September 18, 2009, 03:09:55 AM
Hi Guy's, i was wondering that anybody use the Kendall GT-1, 20W50 SAE?

We are building +/- 20 engines a year and never had any problem with this oil.

Greets

pascal

www.six-packspeedshop.be
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: tomcondran on September 18, 2009, 04:08:39 AM
Although I have respect for Hughes Engines, I do not believe that a moly-based oil additive is best for extreme-pressure lubrication at the cam-lifter interface.  Molecules based on molybdenum are too large and too slippery to entangle themselves between the interface, which reaches quick but massive pressures in excess of 115,000 psi.  At such pressure, even motor oil itself is squeezed out of and away from the critical contact area.

The preferred extreme-pressure lubricant to prolong cam service life since 1959 has been and still is ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate).  This is a family of gangly molecules with zinc at the center and two arms containing phosphorous and sulfur.  This circulates in the oil until it reaches the cam-lifter interface.  There one arm is caught in the closing gap, and the entire molecule gets dragged in.  Under extreme pressure, the molecule gets physically crushed into its constituent atoms, and those atoms get embedded among the surface irons of the cam and lifter.  In effect, this plates those surfaces with phosphorous and (better) sulfur.  The plating performs as sacrificial dry lubricant on subsequent engine cycles, renewing itself until ZDDP is exhausted from the oil in 3-4,000 miles.

Before ZDDP, many motor oils used chlorinated paraffin to extend cam life.  It does, but not so well as ZDDP, with the added disadvantage of morphing into hydrochloric acid at engine temperatures.  HCl eats babbit.  Also to be avoided are Teflon additives.  So use Shell Rotunda, Chevron Delo 400, or ZddPlus additive.  I'm out of space.       
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Road Dog on September 18, 2009, 08:10:09 AM
Quote from: The70RT on September 17, 2009, 06:43:34 PM
Quote from: Road Dog on September 17, 2009, 10:36:21 AM
I just changed my oil a few weeks ago. Valvoline makes oil for engines with flat tappet cams (says so in big letters right on the bottle). Put in some 20-50. Oil is pretty pricey though.

Was it on the shelf and where here did you buy it at?
I had a talk with the guy at Auto Zone a month or so ago about this issue. Next thing ya know "Bam" the oil was on the shelf. I'll post a pic of the bottle tonight if it helps.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on September 18, 2009, 11:49:13 AM
Quote from: six-pack speedshop on September 18, 2009, 03:09:55 AM
Hi Guy's, i was wondering that anybody use the Kendall GT-1, 20W50 SAE?

We are building +/- 20 engines a year and never had any problem with this oil.

Greets

pascal

www.six-packspeedshop.be



The Kendall GT-1 is not the old GT-1.Kendall is now owned by Conoco-Phillips,Houston TX.The old GT-1 is formulated and sold by Brad-Penn who bought reopened the original Kendall refinery in Bradford,Pa.The Brad Penn Grade 1 20/50 racing oil is the same formula as the old GT.1,still is the same Green color.Below is oil analysis ( posted way back in this thread) I had done last year on the Brad Penn.It has more zinc than just about anything on the market.As always,your choice is your decision

Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Cooter on October 01, 2009, 10:23:29 PM
Where can one buy this "Brad-Penn" oil? I assume it's not on the shelf at the local Auto Zone or Advance Auto Right? Thanks for this thread guys..I was beginning to get concerned I might have to buy some crazy, expensive Roller cam in all my cars...
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: elacruze on October 02, 2009, 12:38:49 PM
http://www.zddplus.com/   :scratchchin:

Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Musicman on October 02, 2009, 01:01:07 PM
Actually... that's what they use over at Larry's Auto Machine where my engine is now.

http://www.larryspower.com/parts/BradPenn.html

:cheers:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on October 03, 2009, 07:34:09 AM
Go to Brad Penn's web site,contact then for a distributor in your area.Townsend Gas & Oil Inc ,7244799233 is one of Brad Penn's biggest distributors in PA,he ships all over the US.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Back N Black on October 24, 2009, 07:24:04 PM
Is this the correct EOS from GM?

Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on October 25, 2009, 09:43:38 AM
Valvoline Racing Oil now has a new bottle advertising "ZINC" on it!   
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on October 25, 2009, 05:00:04 PM
 Yes, That's the good stuff.  :Twocents:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 68chgr on October 30, 2009, 10:53:00 AM
Try Brad Penn Motor Oil.  It HAS the additive in it and I run 20/50 in a Street 451 Stroker that was built by Precision Automotive in Canton, Ohio.  Harley and Jeff Day specialize in building Mopar's and race Max Wedge and Hemi's in 64 Plymouths. They use only Brad Penn Motor oil and will attest to it's performance.  It was also recommended by Crane Cams and confirmed by Brad Penn when I  questioned the amount of Synthetic Blend (something like 10-15%) being used in the oil. 

You can call Precision Automotive at 330-456-3045 as they also sell Brad Penn oil..  By the way, Jeff Day wrapped up the 2009 Chrysler Classic Max Wedge class in his 64 Plymouth at Norwalk this past September.   

Hey Firefighter...Great meeting you and your racing Buddies at Norwalk.  I'm the guy with the Red 68 Charger across the way.

Good Luck!
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on October 30, 2009, 10:57:05 AM
So Brad Penn is the old Kendal brand oil?  :shruggy:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on November 14, 2009, 10:09:18 AM
 Anyone seen the lastest copy of MCG Magazine. They have a advertizment for a new oil for cars 1975 and older. This company has at least 12 different ads in the magazine but Refuses to list the COST.  :brickwall:
Are they idiots. ?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on November 14, 2009, 10:36:49 AM
Mancini now sells cases of Brad Penn @ 5.95 per Qt.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Aero426 on November 14, 2009, 11:08:08 AM
Quote from: b5blue on October 30, 2009, 10:57:05 AM
So Brad Penn is the old Kendal brand oil?  :shruggy:

Yes that is correct. 
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: RD on November 14, 2009, 04:47:19 PM
Quote from: b5blue on October 25, 2009, 09:43:38 AM
Valvoline Racing Oil now has a new bottle advertising "ZINC" on it!   

Valvoline has never removed the ZDDP from their oil, it just now has become a major selling point so they advertise it.  I use synergen oil additive.  They make their own oil too.  I buy it from my machinist as he is a dealer and uses two bottles of the additive in every flat tappet start up.  It is really good stuff and he attested to it before he became a dealer.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on November 14, 2009, 09:11:06 PM
Valvoline racing oil or all of their oil?  Because I was very much uner the impression that their regular line of oil has had the zinc removed.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on November 15, 2009, 11:09:55 AM
The Racing oil, the feds made everyone remove it from street oil. Racing= "off road" use I guess, per this topic I checked around and the race oil bottle has changed since my last oil change, now it has ZINC in a big yellow balloon on the label before it was listed on the back of the bottle. 
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on November 15, 2009, 05:55:07 PM
Quote from: ACUDANUT on November 14, 2009, 10:09:18 AM
Anyone seen the lastest copy of MCG Magazine. They have a advertizment for a new oil for cars 1975 and older. This company has at least 12 different ads in the magazine but Refuses to list the COST.  :brickwall:
Are they idiots. ?

Hey, I was wrong. I counted 25 separate ad's or pics in the same magazine. NO PRICE EVER MENTIONED.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: pullrock on November 18, 2009, 10:36:20 AM
Looks like there is a new OIL to hit the market.  Has anyone used it yet?

It is called Z-ALT and there are many adds in Mopar Collector's Guide.

Website: www.z-alt.com

Eric
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on November 18, 2009, 11:10:42 AM
Great how we can special order and pay extra for what use to be everywhere and worked fine for 60 years.  :eek2:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on November 18, 2009, 04:31:44 PM
Isn't it great when the government makes everything all better? :brickwall:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on November 18, 2009, 09:41:35 PM
Quote from: pullrock on November 18, 2009, 10:36:20 AM
Looks like there is a new OIL to hit the market.  Has anyone used it yet?

It is called Z-ALT and there are many adds in Mopar Collector's Guide.

Website: www.z-alt.com

Eric
There is only 25 seperate ad's for this stuff in that mag..  The price is top secret though.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: pullrock on November 18, 2009, 11:11:27 PM
Here is the pirce page..

http://www.z-alt.com/zaltoil.html (http://www.z-alt.com/zaltoil.html)

Eric
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on November 23, 2009, 06:39:33 PM
50 bucks for 6 quarts or 90 for 12.  Honestly, if it prevents a cam wipe then it's well worth it IMO.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: brianz426 on November 23, 2009, 09:28:58 PM
Hey guys,
Check this out http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/amo.aspx , this has a zinc additive and even mentions that it is recommended for older vehicles. The price isn't too bad at $8.60 per qt. or $8.48 per qt. when you buy a case. Right now I'm still working off my older oil but I just bought some of this for when I'm out of the old stuff. Any comments on this?
Thanks
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Musicman on November 24, 2009, 07:05:44 AM
There are a number of good oils still left out there... most of them are racing products however, and therefore pretty $$$....
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on November 24, 2009, 03:11:18 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on November 23, 2009, 06:39:33 PM
50 bucks for 6 quarts or 90 for 12.  Honestly, if it prevents a cam wipe then it's well worth it IMO.
No it's 60.00 for 6 quarts, or 105.00 for 12.  You have to add shipping.  That's 3 times the price for one quart.  :brickwall: :flame:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on November 24, 2009, 03:22:44 PM
No it isn't cheap but there isn't much of an alternative.  Whether you run this stuff or the Amsoil or racing oil or regular oil with EOS in it the costs end up fairly close.  I guess I will have to look at it as spending 100 bucks a year for camshaft insurance.  :shruggy: 
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: dstryr on November 24, 2009, 04:16:37 PM
Here's a good article on oils; sorry it comes from a corvette forum :lol:, but info still applies.

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/index.html (http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/index.html)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 68blue on November 27, 2009, 06:41:40 PM

I have a bunch of old cans of STP that I picked up with some other stuff at an auction. It lists the ZDDP as an ingredient, does anybody know how much?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: NorwayCharger on November 28, 2009, 02:10:42 PM
Quote from: dstryr on November 24, 2009, 04:16:37 PM
Here's a good article on oils; sorry it comes from a corvette forum :lol:, but info still applies.

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/index.html (http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/index.html)

Good reading  :popcrn:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on November 28, 2009, 10:03:58 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on November 24, 2009, 03:22:44 PM
No it isn't cheap but there isn't much of an alternative.  Whether you run this stuff or the Amsoil or racing oil or regular oil with EOS in it the costs end up fairly close.  I guess I will have to look at it as spending 100 bucks a year for camshaft insurance.  :shruggy: 
Not really. One bottle of Gm's EOS and your regular oil is half the price. :Twocents:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on November 29, 2009, 11:07:47 AM
I suppose it depends on what it's costing you for eos and regular oil then.  Personally, I'm still going to go with the new boutique oils for next season.  The overall package they are offering is what cinches the deal for me.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: The70RT on November 29, 2009, 12:21:31 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on November 29, 2009, 11:07:47 AM
I suppose it depends on what it's costing you for eos and regular oil then.  Personally, I'm still going to go with the new boutique oils for next season.  The overall package they are offering is what cinches the deal for me.

so what's in this package deal? EOS is like 15.00
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on November 29, 2009, 10:23:41 PM
I'm talking about the additive package in the oil.  The EOS is about double that where I live.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on November 30, 2009, 10:01:04 AM
Ghost, you need to check around. I get GM's EOS for 15.00 a pint at the dealership  :shruggy:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on November 30, 2009, 10:11:21 AM
I have checked around but one guy now has the lock on GM dealerships in this area (a largely rural area, GM began closing small dealerships here long before Obama and his car czars began to mandate it).  In any case even at the 15 dollar mark I've still decided to run with the boutique oils.  It's close to my limit so if the price difference were to get any greater I would revisit the decision but for now that is the direction I am going.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Back N Black on November 30, 2009, 10:56:04 AM
Quote from: The70RT on November 29, 2009, 12:21:31 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on November 29, 2009, 11:07:47 AM
I suppose it depends on what it's costing you for eos and regular oil then.  Personally, I'm still going to go with the new boutique oils for next season.  The overall package they are offering is what cinches the deal for me.

so what's in this package deal? EOS is like 15.00

I pay $ 5.76 for a 500ml bottle of GM EOS at the dealer.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on November 30, 2009, 12:23:08 PM
Which probably means the dealer cost everywhere is probably about 3 bucks a bottle.  Nice.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Cooter on November 30, 2009, 12:40:03 PM
Well, there's always Full Roller cam swap that comes in somewhere around $1500.00 for a BB Chrysler......
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 375instroke on December 01, 2009, 10:37:06 PM
So is this stuff good?  It doesn't have the newer ratings, so that means it doesn't conform to the lower ZDDP requirements, right?

(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x265/375instroke/Rotella_1.jpg)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: RD on December 01, 2009, 10:58:27 PM
Quote from: 375instroke on December 01, 2009, 10:37:06 PM
So is this stuff good?  It doesn't have the newer ratings, so that means it doesn't conform to the lower ZDDP requirements, right?

(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x265/375instroke/Rotella_1.jpg)

no... the rotella no longer meets the requirements for flat tappet cams... Valvoline racing oil does though.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: squeakfinder on December 01, 2009, 11:06:14 PM

Does that jug have low emissions written on it? The Delo 400 has Low emissions on it, so it's not any good either.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 375instroke on December 01, 2009, 11:39:23 PM
I'm wondering because it says CF-2, CF/SJ only.  It doesn't say CJ-4/SM.  It doesn't say anything about emissions, either.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: FLG on December 01, 2009, 11:40:47 PM
Actually that looks like the older rotella...which was good  :yesnod:

Im sure someone else will chime in.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: G-man on December 02, 2009, 07:49:54 PM
Glad I read the information.

Down here (AU) I use Penrite HPR 30 oil. Has 1560 or so ZDDP of zinc in it natrually. No need any additives with that.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: The70RT on December 02, 2009, 10:18:25 PM
The older CL rated Rotella has all the anti scuff additives in it. If it has the sunburst logo on it it is the new stuff. It has been a couple years since they did it now. I had fun trying to find it in 07. I found like 12 gallons and bought it all then. Im sure it's all gone now.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on December 02, 2009, 10:38:34 PM
 Anyone seen the price of just a regular Qt of oil. 3.99 around here. (Kansas City)  :brickwall:
I remember when it was a Buck.  :flame:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: squeakfinder on December 03, 2009, 04:21:55 PM
Quote from: ACUDANUT on December 02, 2009, 10:38:34 PM
Anyone seen the price of just a regular Qt of oil. 3.99 around here. (Kansas City)  :brickwall:
I remember when it was a Buck.  :flame:





I can remember when it was 98 cents  :P .



Sorry, I know that doesn't help. But your wright, it use to be cheaper to buy a quart of 30 wt for chain saw bar oil than to buy actual chain saw oil. Doesn't seem that long ago.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: The70RT on December 04, 2009, 12:43:47 PM
Hell Oriely's want's 5.00 for a quart of house brand tranny fluid.  ::) I was at a dealership that closed a couple months ago and bought about four cases of petrolium products for like 2 bucks a quart. Some were paying 2.50-3.00 go figure.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 375instroke on December 07, 2009, 02:41:31 AM
Quote from: 375instroke on December 01, 2009, 11:39:23 PM
I'm wondering because it says CF-2, CF/SJ only.  It doesn't say CJ-4/SM.  It doesn't say anything about emissions, either.
I just got 3 gallons of this Rotella T SAE30 at Walmart, so it can't be old stuff they had lying around.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: billssuperbird on December 10, 2009, 08:29:21 PM
i use shell rotella t heavy duty motor oil sae 15w 40. is this ok in my 440. :shruggy: :brickwall:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: FLG on December 10, 2009, 08:31:07 PM
New or old??

I was running 15-40 in my 400 for the past 2 years. Got some motorcraft oil for a good price so i just use that now...no problems at all.

The motor is about as old as the car though.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: billssuperbird on December 10, 2009, 08:40:25 PM
i was told the 440 i have in my car is out of a 1973 state police car. :patrol:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 375instroke on December 11, 2009, 01:44:40 AM
Quote from: The70RT on December 02, 2009, 10:18:25 PM
The older CL rated Rotella has all the anti scuff additives in it. If it has the sunburst logo on it it is the new stuff. It has been a couple years since they did it now. I had fun trying to find it in 07. I found like 12 gallons and bought it all then. Im sure it's all gone now.
Do you mean SL?  Like I said, The Rotella I found was at Walmart, was SJ, and they restocked the shelf.  $11.50/gal.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on December 13, 2009, 10:09:56 AM
You guys need to go back to the beginning of this thread and read it all.There is a lot of good information.What you are buying now isn't what you were buying 5yrs ago. :Twocents:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: FLG on December 13, 2009, 03:41:57 PM
Quote from: billssuperbird on December 10, 2009, 08:40:25 PM
i was told the 440 i have in my car is out of a 1973 state police car. :patrol:

If its an older motor you should be just fine. Like i said, for 2 years ive used rotella, and now i used some motorcraft 15-40. No issues at all with my 400 motor.

The older engines still need that zinc, but its even MORE critical during breakin when things are wearing to each other and stresses are high.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 375instroke on December 13, 2009, 08:24:05 PM
Quote from: 62 Max on December 13, 2009, 10:09:56 AM
You guys need to go back to the beginning of this thread and read it all.There is a lot of good information.What you are buying now isn't what you were buying 5yrs ago. :Twocents:
What makes it that way, though?  Don't the specs have something to do with it?  What do the CF-2, CF, or SJ specs say as far as ZDDP go?  I thought the newer stuff has less of it due to the CJ-4 and SM specs, not just because they are newer.  If the oil says SJ, but not SM, wouldn't that mean it conforms to the older standard for ZDDP?  I have not read this.  I only see that the newer specs call for less ZDDP, not that newly manufactured oil must contain less ZDDP.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on December 13, 2009, 09:28:58 PM
Blatantly stolen from Wikipedia;

API service classes
The API service classes[8] have two general classifications: S for "service" (originating from spark ignition) (typical passenger cars and light trucks using gasoline engines), and C for "commercial" (originating from compression ignition) (typical diesel equipment). Engine oil which has been tested and meets the API standards may display the API Service Symbol (also known as the "Donut") with the service designation on containers sold to oil users.[8]

Note that the API oil classification structure has eliminated specific support for wet-clutch motorcycle applications in their descriptors, and API SJ and newer oils are referred to be specific to automobile and light truck use. Accordingly, motorcycle oils are subject to their own unique standards.

The latest API service standard designation is SM for gasoline automobile and light-truck engines. The SM standard refers to a group of laboratory and engine tests, including the latest series for control of high-temperature deposits. Current API service categories include SM, SL and SJ for gasoline engines. All previous service designations are obsolete, although motorcycle oils commonly still use the SF/SG standard.

All the current gasoline categories (including the obsolete SH), have placed limitations on the phosphorus content for certain SAE viscosity grades (the xW-20, xW-30) due to the chemical poisoning that phosphorus has on catalytic converters. Phosphorus is a key anti-wear component in motor oil and is usually found in motor oil in the form of Zinc_dithiophosphate. Each new API category has placed successively lower phosphorus limits, and this has created a controversial issue of backwards compatibility with much older engines, especially engines with sliding tappets. API, and ILSAC, which represents most of the worlds major automobile/engine manufactures, states API SM/ILSAC GF-4 is fully backwards compatible, and it is noted that one of the engine tests required for API SM, the Sequence IVA, is a sliding tappet design to test specifically for cam wear protection. However, not everyone is in agreement with backwards compatibility, and in addition, there are special situations, such as "modified" engines or fully race built engines, where the engine protection requirements are above and beyond API/ILSAC requirements. Because of this, there are specialty oils out in the market place with higher than API allowed phosphorus levels.

There are six diesel engine service designations which are current: CJ-4, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-2, and CF. All others are obsolete. In addition, API created a separated CI-4 PLUS designation in conjunction with CJ-4 and CI-4 for oils that meet certain extra requirements, and this marking is located in the lower portion of the API Service Symbol "Donut".

It is possible for an oil to conform to both the gasoline and diesel standards. In fact, it is the norm for all diesel rated engine oils to carry the "corresponding" gasoline specification. For example, API CJ-4 will almost always list either SL or SM, API CI-4 with SL, API CH-4 with SJ ... etc.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 375instroke on December 14, 2009, 05:27:15 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on December 13, 2009, 09:28:58 PM
Blatantly stolen from Wikipedia;

All the current gasoline categories (including the obsolete SH), have placed limitations on the phosphorus content for certain SAE viscosity grades (the xW-20, xW-30) due to the chemical poisoning that phosphorus has on catalytic converters.
This is somewhat helpful, but still leads to another question.  The ZDDP was lowered by API SH, which came out in 1996.  The SJ came out in 2001, but the Wiki says only for certain grades, xW-20, and xW-30.  Are those examples, or the only two that have reduced ZDDP.  The Rotella I referenced was SJ and SAE30.  This still adds some uncertainty as to what's up.  I haven't been able to find what the standards actually say.  That would be the best way to figure it out, otherwise it's all hearsay.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on December 14, 2009, 08:19:03 PM
The API website doesn't make it much clearer but the rule of thumb I've basically gone by is that anything SJ and since is bad.  :shruggy:

It may not be accurate but I didn't mind erring on the side of caution in this case.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 375instroke on December 14, 2009, 08:23:31 PM
Well, their site says everything's backward compatible, and there's no problem with flat tappet cams.  Where are the blood sucking lawyers?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on December 14, 2009, 08:26:01 PM
Yeah, I'm not buying that.  :lol:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 1Bad70Charger on December 25, 2009, 12:53:11 AM
I am going to be running a new cam soon and until it goes in will also be running an additive along with Valvoline VRI Racing oil, 20W/50.

I heard great things about Lucas oil additive and its a BIG name in the high performance hot rod world and what's your guys take on Lucas oil additive?  :shruggy:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 1Bad70Charger on December 25, 2009, 12:54:00 AM
I am going to be running a new cam soon and until it goes in will also be running an additive along with Valvooline VRI Racing oil, 20W/50.

I heard great things about Lucas oil additive and its a BIG name in the high performance hot rod world and what's your guys take on Lucas oil additive?  :shruggy:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: NorwayCharger on December 25, 2009, 05:51:10 AM
Quote from: 1Bad70Charger on December 25, 2009, 12:54:00 AM
I am going to be running a new cam soon and until it goes in will also be running an additive along with Valvoline's VRI Racing oil, 20W/50.

I heard great things about Lucas oil additive and its a BIG name in the high performance hot rod world and what's your guys take on Lucas oil additive?  :shruggy:

I am one of the guys that are very sceptical about oil additives.
I've tried a lot of them just out of curiosity, and not convinced that they are worth the money.
The only product i have had good result with is a stuff called QMI.
Lukas is one of the products that I've never tried.
I did a goggle of it http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=890132#Post890132 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=890132#Post890132)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Musicman on December 29, 2009, 05:43:00 PM
That post concerns Lucas Oil Stabilizer, which is a fine product, but it has nothing to do with increasing your oils ZDDP levels...
I believe he was asking about Lucas TB Zinc Plus which is an additive designed to protect flat tappet cam systems.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 1Bad70Charger on December 31, 2009, 09:20:03 AM
I know there is a lot of talk about running an oil addivite b/c of the low zinc levels in current oils.  Now I am figuring on just running full synthetic Valvoline 20W-50 motor oil in the summer, as I know that's great oil and b/c I have about 6 quarts of it laying around from the pro-street car I just sold several months ago.


My 440 engine was built about 3000 miles ago to stock 1970 440 specs and is running one of the flat tappet. hyd. Mopar Purple Cam Shafts, with Headers, and soon with a Proform 750 Carb, Eddy Street Dominator dual plane intake an a dynamic street/strip torue converter with 3.91 gears.  My long term plan is to build-up this 440 engine with Eddy Heads and an aggressive street/ strip cam, and get her making around 525 ponies/torque.  Car will be driven all over on the streets in the summer months hard at times and normal at times during regular traffic.


You guru's don't see any problem running a full synthetic motor oil in this engine do you?   Thanks for your reply. :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on January 01, 2010, 11:01:58 AM
Not a guru but it MUST have plenty of ZINC or you will end up with a no tappet cam!  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 1Bad70Charger on January 02, 2010, 02:59:26 PM
Quote from: Musicman on December 29, 2009, 05:43:00 PM
That post concerns Lucas Oil Stabilizer, which is a fine product, but it has nothing to do with increasing your oils ZDDP levels...
I believe he was asking about Lucas TB Zinc Plus which is an additive designed to protect flat tappet cam systems.


Where can I get TB Zinc plus?

Is it offered at large parts stores like Pep Boys, Auto Zone, etc.  :cheers:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Musicman on January 02, 2010, 05:24:18 PM
Any place that sells Lucas Oil products will have it, or can get it for you. There are also plenty of on line retailers as well.

If I remember correctly... once the engine has been broken in... a 16oz bottle would be good for 2 oil changes, but don't quote me on that... You can call the folks over at Lucas and ask them, but I think the entire bottle raises the level to 5000ppm with a 5 qt change???
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Sublime/Sixpack on January 14, 2010, 11:29:35 PM
With all the info in this thread it seems pretty obvious what one needs to do to protect the cam and lifters in our Chargers, but what oil would an owner of a late '70's, early to mid '80's car with a push rod type engine and catalytic convertor exhaust run? I have a couple such cars. If I don't run oil with the necessary amount of zinc the engine suffers, if I do run oil with the zinc then I ruin the catalytic convertors.

Any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 1Bad70Charger on January 15, 2010, 01:23:17 AM
Gut the cats, and you'll pick up a little power while your at it!  :icon_smile_wink:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Sublime/Sixpack on January 15, 2010, 10:48:30 AM
I wish it were that simple, but the cats are necessary for the yearly Imissions test required by the State.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: chargergirl on January 17, 2010, 09:13:28 PM
Been running the Lucas treatment in our daily drivers and won't be changing that any time soon. Cars run great and the deisel love it. Different one run in the deisels but still need it just the same. Both are Lucas.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: daves68 on March 07, 2010, 08:10:47 AM
Just wondering what the REAL reason is for removing zinc from oil. There have been cats on cars ( converters, not kitty cats) since WAAAAAYYY back in 1975. Millions, maybe billions, (trillions ?)  of cats on everything. Cats lasting the entire life of the car. My 82' New Yorker with 240,000 miles and still passing emissions. All of them living with zinc in the oil, until last year.  And suddenly, they are failing because of zinc in the oil????????    Thought- one very effective way to get old cars off the road. Crush 'em from the inside.
My inquiring mind wants to know.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: b5blue on March 07, 2010, 12:08:37 PM
The "standards" have gotten tougher and harder to maintain.  :P
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: jeryst on March 07, 2010, 03:44:16 PM
If the synthetic oil you use does not have the proper levels of ZDDP, you will have the same problem.
Just because an oil is synthetic doesnt mean its better, or a cure all.

You have to be careful with additives, because too much ZDDP is just as bad as not enough.
Too much can cause spaulling of the metal. So, in order to use an additive, you need to find out
the ZDDP level of the oil you plan on using, then find out the ZDDP level of the additive, then
figure out the correct ratio, then mix it up. To me, that's a real PITA.

I have researched this quite a bit, and have decided to use Brad Penn oil in my old cars from now on.
It has 1500 ppm ZDDP and has been in business for over 50 years. The refinery is only an hour or
so away from me, and local dealers carry it. They offer a full range of multi-grade and straight
grade oils. About the same price as other oils, and its much more convenient because instead
of trying to figure out additive doses , you just throw in another quart of oil. Also much more
convenient when you just want to "top off" the oil.

BTW, they also off a special break-in oil for newly rebuilt engines.

If anyone is interested, their website is www.bradpennracing.com
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: daves68 on March 08, 2010, 06:53:53 AM
Tougher standards are true- to a degree. Point- as mentioned, my old NY was still passing, in spite of tougher standards. Now,to be honest, there was some fuel tweaking going on towards the end but that was because they placed tighter limits on CO and NOX- limits that were not even around when the car was built. New car standards for an old car. It DID get harder to pass, not because the converter was failing, but because it was incrementally being made physically impossible for the older mechanicals to meet the new limits. Also true is that newer cars have converted to roller lifters and don't need the zinc. However, it doesn't really hurt them either. I am always skeptical when a govt agency makes statements  without providing technical proof to uphold their decision. This is an (another) example of that.  Now, here in Wisconsin, they are moving towards ending emission testing because it is expensive and ( gasp) is not really having any positive environmental effect.  Why? Newer cars are cleaner and more efficient. All of the wasted time and money for years of emission boogey man chasing produced nothing substantial, it's the new technology that did it. 
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: jeryst on March 08, 2010, 06:59:57 AM
Quote from: daves68 on March 08, 2010, 06:53:53 AM
Tougher standards are true- to a degree. Point- as mentioned, my old NY was still passing, in spite of tougher standards. Now,to be honest, there was some fuel tweaking going on towards the end but that was because they placed tighter limits on CO and NOX- limits that were not even around when the car was built. New car standards for an old car. It DID get harder to pass, not because the converter was failing, but because it was incrementally being made physically impossible for the older mechanicals to meet the new limits. Also true is that newer cars have converted to roller lifters and don't need the zinc. However, it doesn't really hurt them either. I am always skeptical when a govt agency makes statements  without providing technical proof to uphold their decision. This is an (another) example of that.  Now, here in Wisconsin, they are moving towards ending emission testing because it is expensive and ( gasp) is not really having any positive environmental effect.  Why? Newer cars are cleaner and more efficient. All of the wasted time and money for years of emission boogey man chasing produced nothing substantial, it's the new technology that did it. 

The Zinc supposedly hurts the newer catalytic converters, and too much zinc is bad for any motor.

IMO, emission standards should be grandfathered. Your car gets tested at the levels that were in effect  in the year of production.

I heard that the new cars run so clean, you actually cant commit suicide with them any more.

Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Musicman on March 08, 2010, 08:46:55 AM
Quote from: Sublime/Sixpack on January 15, 2010, 10:48:30 AM
I wish it were that simple, but the cats are necessary for the yearly Imissions test required by the State.

Some of us are extremely thankful that we in states that don't require all of this crap... CT required that emissions tests be performed on everything initially, but after they got sued a few times they lowered the standards for older vehicles and put an all out exception in there for vehicles over 25 years old.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ChattanoogaCharger on April 14, 2010, 04:03:07 PM
You should have zinc in the oil at all times with a flat tappet cam not just during break in.  Alot of guys i know use the Rotella (deisel oil) and some buy their oil from Hughes racing (or Mancini, I forget which) and it is like the old Kendall oil which has the zinc still in it.  This is what I have been told anyway.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: jeryst on April 14, 2010, 07:31:57 PM
Rotella removed a lot of the zinc from their diesel oils, so I dont know if it is safe or not anymore.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ChattanoogaCharger on April 14, 2010, 08:34:04 PM
Here is a link to the additive that Hughes Engines sells.  It is regular price 6.99 a pint

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?partid=23942
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ChattanoogaCharger on April 14, 2010, 08:37:44 PM
It is also a good idea when you buy a new cam to have it "hardened".  From comp cams it is generally $100 more than the reg cam
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ChattanoogaCharger on April 14, 2010, 08:48:18 PM
Brad Pennn makes a really good oil with zinc 2000+ ppm
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: jeryst on April 15, 2010, 02:12:44 AM
Quote from: ChattanoogaCharger on April 14, 2010, 08:37:44 PM
It is also a good idea when you buy a new cam to have it "hardened".  From comp cams it is generally $100 more than the reg cam

Wouldnt you need to have your lifters hardened as well?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: jeryst on April 15, 2010, 02:16:31 AM
Quote from: ChattanoogaCharger on April 14, 2010, 08:48:18 PM
Brad Pennn makes a really good oil with zinc 2000+ ppm

I use the Brad Penn oil. It says it has 1500 ppm, which is for most purposes, the right amount.

You should not go over 2000 ppm or metal spauling can occur.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ChattanoogaCharger on April 15, 2010, 04:01:48 PM
I really don't know  I'm just repeating what I have been told but the way I understand it is that the cam is the softest of all the metals and thats why it gets "eat up" so by having it hardened it doesn't.  Again, just repeating what friends have told me and they build alot of motors for race cars. ;)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 62 Max on April 18, 2010, 10:01:20 AM
Quote from: jeryst on April 15, 2010, 02:16:31 AM
Quote from: ChattanoogaCharger on April 14, 2010, 08:48:18 PM
Brad Pennn makes a really good oil with zinc 2000+ ppm

I use the Brad Penn oil. It says it has 1500 ppm, which is for most purposes, the right amount.

You should not go over 2000 ppm or metal spauling can occur.

Brad Penn analysis.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: pullrock on May 25, 2010, 04:41:47 PM
I got this email from Joe Gibbs Racing today.  It is very concerning :brickwall:  Has anyone else gotten this email?

Eric
68 Charger R/T



Email Subject: New API SN motor oil standard announced - GM to introduce dexos 1 oil specification

Email body: Below is the official announcement that motor oil standards are changing again later this year. API SN will replace the current API SM oil. This is important information for all engine builders, racers and hot rodders to know about.



Here's the cliff's notes version of the changes:



Zinc – The type of Zinc will change to a new Zinc that is friendlier to catalytic converters. The new Zinc will not be tested for compatibility with flat tappet camshafts



Viscosity Modifiers/Polymers – Newer types of viscosity modifiers will be used to allow the oils to thin out over time to improve fuel economy



Also, GM is launching dexos 1 – a global engine oil specification. This new oil standard for 2011 model year GM cars and light trucks will be synthetic.



I wanted to pass this information along because the last time the oil specifications changed, nobody sent out the notice.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Lube Report from Lubes-n-Greases



Wednesday, May 5, 2010  VOLUME 10 ISSUE 18   





API SN Crosses Finish Line



By George Gill



API's Lubricants Committee approved the SN and SN Resource Conserving passenger car engine oil categories, with first licensing Oct. 1, 2010, launching alongside ILSAC GF-5. The thumbs-up came in spite of continued opposition from automakers.



API SN will be an upgrade of the current API SM category, identified by the API Donut trademark. It aims to address the full spectrum of engine oil viscosity grades, including those not covered under the ILSAC specification, such as SAE 10W-40. SN Resource Conserving (which will replace the current SM Energy Conserving designation) has additional requirements covering fuel economy improvement and vehicle emissions systems protection.



Feedback from automakers had been uniformly negative over a series of meetings in recent months. Some OEMs threatened to withdraw support for API licensed oils entirely if the SN category was not aligned to GF-5 in areas such as phosphorus content and deposit control.



"They [automakers] definitely didn't approve it," API engine oil licensing manager Kevin Ferrick confirmed to Lube Report. "The OEMs commented that had there been a separate ballot item for SN Resource Conserving, they would have approved that. But for practical purposes, we didn't feel it was necessary to change the ballot and issue it again. That was enough for us, that they approved of SN Resource Conserving. It makes sense because it's an exact duplicate of GF-5."



GF-5 oils are identified by API's Starburst trademark, and were developed jointly by ILSAC, representing North American and Japanese automakers, and oil and additive companies. The S-series of engine oil categories belong to API alone, and are referenced worldwide.



Ferrick noted that while the automakers are probably not happy with API SN in its final form, the Lubricants Committee felt strongly they needed SN to have some ability to meet what they perceived as a global need outside North America and Japan.



"Here in North America, the automakers are essentially recommending GF-5," he noted. "So SN Resource Conserving would give a clear signal to a consumer that they're getting a GF-5 product. API and the Lubes Committee agreed that they will do more to make sure the message gets out, that if an OEM is using GF-5, then you need to use GF-5 – that an SN oil by itself is not going to be enough. That you then have to do SN Resource Conserving. But then SN is available for places where GF-5 performance isn't recommended."



Washington, D.C.-based API withdrew an initial Jan. 8 ballot on SN and SN Resource Conserving. A new ballot went out March 31 and technically closed on April 16. On that same date, Ferrick said, the issue went before an Administrative Guidance Panel. "The recommendations that came out of there were similar to the ones found in the ballot," he noted. The 15-member Lubricants Committee worked out final definitions and user language for API SN and SN Resource Conserving during an April 23 conference call to review ballot comments.



OEMs had suggested additions to SN requirements, including an 800 ppm phosphorus limit, requiring the TEOST 33C test for high-temperature turbocharger deposits, and testing emulsion retention in all SN oil viscosities. The revised ballot addressed the issues to some extent, though not across the board for all viscosity grades.



"A lot of the comments we had from the automakers had to do with concerns about misapplication," Ferrick explained. "There was concern SN oils could end up in their cars when they need to be GF-5 or SN with Resource Conserving. The committee discussed that and did agree they need to do significantly more consumer education to make sure that there's not a misapplication."



In response to automaker's concerns, the Lubricants Committee agreed to add a sentence to the SN service recommendation, "Vehicle owners and operators should follow their vehicle manufacturer's recommendations on engine oil viscosity and performance standard." They hope this will help ensure that the oils recommended by engine manufacturers are used, especially in newer model-year vehicles.



Published by LNG Publishing Co., Inc.

Copyright © 2010 LNG Publishing Co., Inc. All rights reserved.

George Gill, Editor. Lube Report (ISSN 1547-3392) is published by LNG Publishing Co., Inc., 6105-G Arlington Blvd., Falls Church, Virginia 22044 USA. Phone: (703) 536-0800. Fax: (703) 536-0803. Website: www.LNGpublishing.com. Email: info@LNGpublishing.com. For advertising information contact Gloria Steinberg Briskin at (800) 474-8654 or (703) 536-7676 or gloria@LNGpublishing.com.





Lake C. Speed, Jr.

Certified Lubrication Specialist

Joe Gibbs Racing
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 70charginglizard on June 27, 2010, 10:03:13 PM
Looks like I might be one of the many screwed by this situation.
I think I might be loosing my no. 6 intake lobe of the comp cam I put in back in 2001. :brickwall:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 70charginglizard on July 08, 2010, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: 70charginglizard on June 27, 2010, 10:03:13 PM
Looks like I might be one of the many screwed by this situation.
I think I might be loosing my no. 6 intake lobe of the comp cam I put in back in 2001. :brickwall:


Not totally sure of this yet but my problem may actually be nothing more then a small pinhole exhaust leak at the connection pipe I somehow missed in my preliminary investigation.  That would be totally awesome if true.

More to come later but the lizard may not need the disection I originally though it might.


to be continued....
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: harlandodge on July 08, 2010, 08:15:09 PM
guy at the machine shop here tells me to use the 15/40 rotella or the rated C chevron oil
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on July 08, 2010, 09:09:06 PM
I can't say about the Chevron but his info on the Rotella is old and no longer valid.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Headrope on July 25, 2010, 03:10:54 PM
CAFE standards and crushing can only kill so many vehicles but wiping out cams is brilliant ... too brilliant.
Which cam manufacturer provided the silver bullet to the EPA? We should never buy from them again.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: MoparJ on October 07, 2010, 02:28:27 PM
I run Chevron Delo 15W40 in all of my cars, stock flat tappet, or Comp XE268 cammed cars. I usually add one blue STP bottle for some extra zinc.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: MoparJ on October 07, 2010, 02:32:01 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on July 08, 2010, 09:09:06 PM
I can't say about the Chevron but his info on the Rotella is old and no longer valid.

Chevron Delo should have 1150-1200 ppm, which is suitable with mild to moderate flat tappets.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: squeakfinder on October 07, 2010, 06:18:13 PM
Quote from: MoparJ on October 07, 2010, 02:32:01 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on July 08, 2010, 09:09:06 PM
I can't say about the Chevron but his info on the Rotella is old and no longer valid.

Chevron Delo should have 1150-1200 ppm, which is suitable with mild to moderate flat tappets.







What did they do? Go back to the old formula? I would be real suprised....
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on October 09, 2010, 11:53:30 PM
When it comes to my car I don't like "should have".  :Twocents:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: quadram4 on January 23, 2011, 08:09:56 PM
I was told by an old Detroit racer that STP oil additive, the red bottle for 4 cyl. engines is all u need with 5 quarts of good oil. I have been using that combo on all my flat tappet cam muscle cars for many, many years and I have NEVER destroyed a cam, and I drive my Mopars like they were meant to be driven!!!! Cheap and good!
Bob
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 440 on March 17, 2011, 02:17:56 AM
My post went missing so I'll post again.....

This is news to me, it's the first time I've heard of it. I've been running the standard Royal Purple Synthetic in all of my cars for years now and haven't encountered any problems. I've never had a cam/ lifter or anything else go bad for that matter other then a couple of fuel pumps. I do change the oil every 3,000 miles although that doesn't seem like it would be of any benefit relating to this.

Now that I own a fairly high dollar Mopar with purple cam I'm more concerned. Now I guess I'll have to go pick up an additive or zinc rich oil for that added assurance from now on.

Thanks everyone for bringing to my attention and others who have not heard of it before.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: NorwayCharger on March 17, 2011, 03:09:13 AM
Quote from: 440 on March 17, 2011, 02:17:56 AM
My post went missing so I'll post again.....

This is news to me, it's the first time I've heard of it. I've been running the standard Royal Purple Synthetic in all of my cars for years now and haven't encountered any problems. I've never had a cam/ lifter or anything else go bad for that matter other then a couple of fuel pumps. I do change the oil every 3,000 miles although that doesn't seem like it would be of any benefit relating to this.

Now that I own a fairly high dollar Mopar with purple cam I'm more concerned. Now I guess I'll have to go pick up an additive or zinc rich oil for that added assurance from now on.

Thanks everyone for bringing to my attention and others who have not heard of it before.


Just use the Royal Purple Racing oil, it has a lot of zinc.

Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: FLG on March 17, 2011, 01:14:58 PM
Just a heads up,

Just broke in my 440, shop used Joe Gibbs break-in oil and i made sure i put plenty of lube on the cam and lifters..no issues at all  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: jeryst on March 18, 2011, 01:20:30 PM
Quote from: NorwayCharger on March 17, 2011, 03:09:13 AM
Quote from: 440 on March 17, 2011, 02:17:56 AM
My post went missing so I'll post again.....

This is news to me, it's the first time I've heard of it. I've been running the standard Royal Purple Synthetic in all of my cars for years now and haven't encountered any problems. I've never had a cam/ lifter or anything else go bad for that matter other then a couple of fuel pumps. I do change the oil every 3,000 miles although that doesn't seem like it would be of any benefit relating to this.

Now that I own a fairly high dollar Mopar with purple cam I'm more concerned. Now I guess I'll have to go pick up an additive or zinc rich oil for that added assurance from now on.

Thanks everyone for bringing to my attention and others who have not heard of it before.


Just use the Royal Purple Racing oil, it has a lot of zinc.



I dont know about the Royal Purple, but running racing oil in a street engine is not a good idea.
I've heard that most racing oils do not contain the additives/detergents needed to properly protect a street engine.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: NorwayCharger on March 19, 2011, 03:15:22 AM
Quote from: jeryst on March 18, 2011, 01:20:30 PM
Quote from: NorwayCharger on March 17, 2011, 03:09:13 AM
Quote from: 440 on March 17, 2011, 02:17:56 AM
My post went missing so I'll post again.....

This is news to me, it's the first time I've heard of it. I've been running the standard Royal Purple Synthetic in all of my cars for years now and haven't encountered any problems. I've never had a cam/ lifter or anything else go bad for that matter other then a couple of fuel pumps. I do change the oil every 3,000 miles although that doesn't seem like it would be of any benefit relating to this.

Now that I own a fairly high dollar Mopar with purple cam I'm more concerned. Now I guess I'll have to go pick up an additive or zinc rich oil for that added assurance from now on.

Thanks everyone for bringing to my attention and others who have not heard of it before.


Just use the Royal Purple Racing oil, it has a lot of zinc.



I dont know about the Royal Purple, but running racing oil in a street engine is not a good idea.
I've heard that most racing oils do not contain the additives/detergents needed to properly protect a street engine.

Racing & "Not Street Legal" Racing Oils contain additional additives for increased horsepower and reduced friction on metal parts, provide extra wear protection for high compression/higher horsepower engines, and include less detergents than regular conventional motor oils.

Just change the oil more often, and you´ll be ok ;)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 440 on March 19, 2011, 07:59:30 AM
I already change the oil every 3000 miles in all of my other cars. This particular car however wont go out too often, maybe twice a month so it would take a while to rack up 3000 miles... I should probably change it every 3 months regardless as they recommend but at the expense of oil now I'll probably change it every 6 months....
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: squeakfinder on June 04, 2011, 03:10:38 PM

   I think this discussion should be in this thread.....




http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=81231.new;topicseen#new
                             
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: AKcharger on June 09, 2011, 11:04:51 PM
Actually I just referanced that topic back to this one so it's a Post Circle (PC)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: super77se on October 15, 2011, 08:54:29 PM
 so i fired my fresh 360 a couple months ago and i went through the cam break in with some GM 10/30 that is rich with a zinc additive for about 20 hours or so on and off , and put probably 30 or 40 miles on it and then drained the oil and changed the filter adding 6 quarts of full synthetic castrol gt and i have probably put another 50 or 60 miles on it . am i safe ? should i throw some sort of additive back in the mix ? any suggestions ?
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: FLG on October 16, 2011, 01:13:34 AM
Dont bother with the synthetic crap IMO just buy a good quality oil, joe gibbs, penzoil..etc (the ones you can usually only find in speed shops or online) along with a zinc additive and change your oil regularly. Depending on how hard you drive the car, if you go to the track..you will want to change it more often, if you really dont get on it all the time or dont use it reguraly id say change it every 3k or 6 months...its cheap insurance.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ACUDANUT on October 16, 2011, 10:09:00 AM
 Changing oil every 3 or 6 months is a waste of money it you have not driven the car....Add Sea-foam to remove condensation, if that's what your worried about.  :Twocents:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: FLG on October 16, 2011, 05:33:01 PM
Quote from: ACUDANUT on October 16, 2011, 10:09:00 AM
Changing oil every 3 or 6 months is a waste of money it you have not driven the car....Add Sea-foam to remove condensation, if that's what your worried about.  :Twocents:

Think that depends on the engine and how its driven when it is driven. On a stock motor that dosnt see much action, id agree but on a nicely built motor that sees the upper rpm range when its driven, i rather be safe than sorry.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: The70RT on January 14, 2012, 11:20:57 AM
Has anybody seen this stuff, fairly new stuff on the market. You can buy it at most auto part stores. Rislone oil treatment with zinc.

Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bakerhillpins on May 02, 2012, 08:37:07 PM
Here is a FAQ for the product I found from a simple google search. My local Advance Auto apparently carries this stuff.

Quote
What is Rislone Engine Oil Supplement with Zinc Treatment?
Rislone Engine Oil Supplement with Zinc Treatment is a petroleum oil performance supplement "booster"
containing high levels of ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) Zinc and Phosphorus additives to help better
protect internal engine components including pistons, flat tappet camshafts, lifters and the valvetrain. This
is especially important at engine start up, when most wear is done. That is why they say one of the worst
things you can do is start your engine.

Will it work in synthetic oil?
Yes, Rislone works with all petroleum-based motor oils including conventional, high mileage and synthetic
formulas.

How much Rislone Engine Oil Supplement with Zinc Treatment do I install?
(Do not overfill)
GASOLINE ENGINES (Cars & Light Trucks)
1996 and older – Add one bottle to engine crankcase.
1997 to 2004 – Add approximately ½ bottle (16 ounces) to engine.
DIESEL ENGINES (Light, Medium & Heavy-Duty)
2006 and older – Add one bottle to engine crankcase for every 5 quarts of oil capacity.
OTHER APPLICATIONS
For 4-stroke motorcycles, agricultural, industrial and racing applications use at 20% crankcase capacity.
For example if your engine holds 5 quarts of motor oil, use 4 bottles of oil and 1 quart of Rislone.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 440 on July 19, 2012, 05:57:37 PM
All I could find in the local parts houses were Lucas break in oil treatment and Hyper Lube... The hyper lube claimed to protect better than zinc but doesn't contain any zinc (moly based). I have always run Royal Purple but it seems the Racing formula is now called XPR, HPX also claims to be high in Zinc? From what I've read RP is quite a bit more expensive than other zinc rich oils, I wonder why.

What is the preferred oil that contains adequate zinc without mixing ?

What is the preferred zinc additive now that GM and Mopar EOS is discontinued ?

I haven't bought any quality oil in the past 4 years so I am out of the loop.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Fred on July 20, 2012, 05:28:29 PM
I've been using Brad Penn for years now and I'm very happy with it. It has plenty of zinc. I started with 15w-40 but it was a bit too thin for my liknig so now I'm using 20w-50 and it seems to be perfect.
Here's some info for you.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 440 on July 20, 2012, 11:47:22 PM
Anyone know what the Zinc/Phosphorus is of Royal Purple, they seem to be the only ones who don't divulge anything. Their new high performance oils (at least new from when I last bought oil) claim to be Zinc/Phosphorus enriched, but that's a bit too vague for me. Would you still run an additive with RP ?

They also claim that testing with zinc/phosphorous in their oil has had no short or long term effect on cats  :shruggy:

I'm actually quite blown away that the speed shop I went to was pretty unaware of this issue.... I don't get it

 
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: NorwayCharger on July 21, 2012, 03:18:47 AM
Lab test : http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=199307 (http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=199307)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 440 on July 21, 2012, 03:26:44 AM
Wow, Although the 20/50w isn't listed I'm sure it's close. I'm surprised the HPS has more Zinc/Phosphorus than the XPR.

:2thumbs:  No additional additives needed in that case.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Fred on October 19, 2012, 12:33:49 AM
Does anybody use Kendall oil?  Is it any good?
I'm able to get hold of it over here now and I'm wondering about the zinc content. Any feedback would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on October 22, 2012, 05:49:55 AM
To my knowledge the Kendall is no better for our engines than any of the other "mainstream" brands.  Check the API label on the side and it should tell you.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Fred on October 22, 2012, 01:59:28 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on October 22, 2012, 05:49:55 AM
To my knowledge the Kendall is no better for our engines than any of the other "mainstream" brands.  Check the API label on the side and it should tell you.

:2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: tan top on October 22, 2012, 06:47:57 PM
always used compcams breakin addtive with every oil change  ,  now just started using this  :yesnod:,  
:shruggy:  :popcrn:


http://www.torcousa.com/torco_product/zep.html
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Fred on October 23, 2012, 01:42:57 AM
Thanks for that tan top. I just watched the video and if it's good enough for Jay Leno, It's good enough for me  :lol:
But whether or not it's available here is another matter. I will definitely look into it.  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: tan top on October 23, 2012, 02:51:35 AM
Quote from: Fred on October 23, 2012, 01:42:57 AM
Thanks for that tan top. I just watched the video and if it's good enough for Jay Leno, It's good enough for me  :lol:
But whether or not it's available here is another matter. I will definitely look into it.  :2thumbs:

http://www.torcousa.com/6-dealer/australia.html

http://www.torcousa.com/full-line.html

:popcrn:
:scratchchin:  
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Fred on October 23, 2012, 03:42:03 AM
Quote from: tan top on October 23, 2012, 02:51:35 AM
Quote from: Fred on October 23, 2012, 01:42:57 AM
Thanks for that tan top. I just watched the video and if it's good enough for Jay Leno, It's good enough for me  :lol:
But whether or not it's available here is another matter. I will definitely look into it.  :2thumbs:

http://www.torcousa.com/6-dealer/australia.html

http://www.torcousa.com/full-line.html

:popcrn:
:scratchchin:  

Just checked out that info tan top and some of the places are just a stones throw away from my place.  Thanks again for your help.  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: NorwayCharger on November 10, 2012, 10:38:56 AM
This was interresting reading.
ZDDP :     http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31791 (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31791)
Diesel oil :http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32279 (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32279)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: RIDGERACER383 on January 04, 2013, 05:41:55 PM
I only have hours on my engine and it was rebuilt in 93 with the same Penzoil oil in it from 93 which is still clean and clear.So I guess I'm good right?it was 5w30 break in oil I think.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Cooter on January 04, 2013, 06:24:37 PM
Quote from: RIDGERACER383 on January 04, 2013, 05:41:55 PM
I only have hours on my engine and it was rebuilt in 93 with the same Penzoil oil in it from 93 which is still clean and clear.So I guess I'm good right?it was 5w30 break in oil I think.

Yes, that oil SHOULD have still had high amounts of Zinc in it. Once broken in, find a GOOD quality oil that is high in ZDDP.
I use Spectro Racing oil. Even the Rotella Diesel oils are having the Zinc pulled from them.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: RIDGERACER383 on January 04, 2013, 09:16:20 PM
Kool...thanks cooter
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: The70RT on January 04, 2013, 11:23:11 PM
Quote from: Cooter on January 04, 2013, 06:24:37 PM
Quote from: RIDGERACER383 on January 04, 2013, 05:41:55 PM
I only have hours on my engine and it was rebuilt in 93 with the same Penzoil oil in it from 93 which is still clean and clear.So I guess I'm good right?it was 5w30 break in oil I think.

Yes, that oil SHOULD have still had high amounts of Zinc in it. Once broken in, find a GOOD quality oil that is high in ZDDP.
I use Spectro Racing oil. Even the Rotella Diesel oils are having the Zinc pulled from them.

Too late, Rotella pulled the zinc like 2 or 3 years ago  :yesnod:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: RIDGERACER383 on January 05, 2013, 09:40:10 AM
The green oil from Brad Penn "Penn Grade 1" looks good..High zink in it.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 68CoronetRT on June 12, 2013, 05:52:34 PM
So if someone is going to buy some off the shelf oil for their car.... what combo/brand would you buy?

And what would you run for a 'cam break in' oil? just fill the pan up with the comp cam stuff?

Or just 10-30 valvoline and add 1 qrt of the comp cam stuff? :shruggy: :scratchchin:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: squeakfinder on June 30, 2013, 10:37:05 AM

     AutoRestorer magazine just recommended this to a reader.....





                                              http://www.classiccaroil.com/
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Fred on July 01, 2013, 12:35:09 AM
Quote from: RIDGERACER383 on January 05, 2013, 09:40:10 AM
The green oil from Brad Penn "Penn Grade 1" looks good..High zink in it.

:yesnod: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on July 01, 2013, 09:01:23 AM
The restoration shop at the place where I work use the Gibbs stuff.  They use the break in oil for breaking in and then the hot rod-musclecar one for running.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: dodgeguydelta on July 06, 2013, 01:49:30 PM
Quote from: AKcharger on July 03, 2008, 01:24:37 AM
I was informed by firefighter and another pal about the importance of having a zinc additive added to your oil during initial cam break in. I used regular oil on my break in and began to panic so I wanted to get the story....and it is potentially catastrophic!

I called Valvoline this morning and spoke to Chris at their tech department and confirmend the story; zinc dithiophosphate (ZnDTP) levels were reduced by mandate of the EPA within the past year. He said regular oils now have less than 850 ppm ZnDTP but their diesel oils are still between 900 and 1000 PPM and their valvoline racing oil has 1300ppm because it's designed for off-road use.

OK, so that's the oil part, I then called Engle, the manufacturer of my cam  and spoke to Doug. I asked about the low zinc deal and asked if this was really something to worry about, he said YES. In fact he stated emphatically to use an additive not only during break-in but ALL THE TIME. he said the low ZnDTP will eat the cam/lifters and due to shavings floating around the engine...eventually the rest of the motor will go too.

Brad Penn motor oil is the answer. Google it Summit Racing has it.
So what to do?

- Use a Zinc additive. Engle suggests "justice brothers" and figherfighter suggests GM EOS or ZZDP plus
- My pal talked to Bullet racing cams (they custom ground his hemi cam) and they say any oil conforming to CI-4 rating (Diesel oil) offers adequate protection
- I haven't tried any additive yet so I can't make a recommendation...but feel free to add to this post

I can't believe this isn't getting press...or if it has I sure missed it.

P.S. my engine is OK  ;)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: AKcharger on July 07, 2013, 02:04:11 AM
Will said AK!  :cheers:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: squeakfinder on July 07, 2013, 10:30:12 AM
   Think I'll just stick with ZDDPlus additive.....



               http://www.zddplus.com/index.htm
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 1974dodgecharger on September 21, 2013, 03:06:27 PM
Either way it seems its best to add a zinc/phosphoe in every oil change we do ourselves.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: nvrbdn on September 21, 2013, 08:38:42 PM
Quote from: Fred on July 01, 2013, 12:35:09 AM
Quote from: RIDGERACER383 on January 05, 2013, 09:40:10 AM
The green oil from Brad Penn "Penn Grade 1" looks good..High zink in it.

:yesnod: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

my engine guy just told me to get the brad penn. thats what just went in mine.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Fred on September 21, 2013, 11:37:32 PM
Quote from: nvrbdn on September 21, 2013, 08:38:42 PM
Quote from: Fred on July 01, 2013, 12:35:09 AM
Quote from: RIDGERACER383 on January 05, 2013, 09:40:10 AM
The green oil from Brad Penn "Penn Grade 1" looks good..High zink in it.

:yesnod: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

my engine guy just told me to get the brad penn. thats what just went in mine.

Good choice. I use nothing but.  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Charger74SE on October 20, 2013, 08:52:15 AM
I just put my 318 back in in Sept and the Machine Shop that I used recommended using Lucas Break-in Oil Additive not only for initial break-in but also for your normal oil change. I went to the Lucas Website and downloaded the TDS sheet and it says that this additive contains 5000ppm of Zinc.
This is what I'm going to stay with.

Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: 1974dodgecharger on November 12, 2013, 06:17:44 AM
found out amsoil has a oil now with zinc/phosphorus line called Z-rod specially for the flat tappet cams. 
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on November 12, 2013, 08:20:38 AM
It's great to see these specialty oil companies stepping up to bat for us like this.  I hope their investment pays off with customer support.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bobfist on August 08, 2014, 01:49:54 PM
This was the first thing i leared when i started to work with old american cars, ALWAYS zink oil in these old engines
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ChargerKen on August 10, 2014, 12:02:54 AM
Comp cams recommended rotella in installation instructions, so that's what was used after proper break-in. When I built my 440 rotella had removed the zinc. Smoked the cam and lifters in it.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Ghoste on August 11, 2014, 09:14:23 AM
That sucks, I thought Comp recommended their own zinc additive or something like that. 
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ChargerKen on October 22, 2014, 10:51:43 PM
Yeah, I had my parts for a couple years or so before I actually put it all together. After the cam failure I ordered the exact same cam. The new instructions recommended their oil additive only.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: ajs73charger on May 05, 2015, 03:36:03 PM
 I'm reading this just in time, as I my timing chain went and required replacement.  I have purchased a new Comp Cam for my 73 400(motorhome) to increase the lo end torque.  I smeared all the red grease on lobes bearings and was wondering, If I can use Lucas engine break in oil instead of Comp Cams oil.
Al
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: AKcharger on May 07, 2015, 08:09:30 AM
Al

I'd do EXACTLY what the cam manufacturer suggests...in this case I'd use both. Those first few minutes of a cams life are critical, ya' don't want to take a chance of damaging it, as you know it would be a real pain to have to dig back in and replace it...
:Twocents:

Just think about this picture
(http://image.hotrod.com/f/9172975/HRDP_0606_01_z+flat_tappet_cam_tech+broken_lifter.jpg)
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Barfyspitz on June 27, 2015, 09:45:34 PM
Years ago I installed a 509 purple shaft.  I can't remember now and I've lost most of my paperwork but was that a flat tappet  cam? I broke it in with lots of Cam Lube. I wonder  if I should switch over to the VR1 20w50
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bull on March 16, 2016, 11:56:18 PM
Too bad my brother didn't talk to me before firing up his newly rebuilt Corvette engine. After rebuilding it himself he was using regular old engine oil when he fired it up for break-in. 20 minutes later he had a 350 bowtie boat anchor.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: flyinlow on August 11, 2017, 10:06:35 PM
Thought I would stir up an old tread.

I've been using Mobil1  15w50 with 1/2 bottle of comp cams break in lube added at oil change and the other 1/2 added 2k miles or so latter. 

Considering Mobil1  0w40 , scored best film strength of any oil .  Mobil1 discourages additives.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: JHolslin on August 14, 2017, 11:50:29 AM
I just lost a lobe on my cam, I was using Full Syn. Napa 10W30. I put in a Comp cam and lifters yesterday and I am running Total Rubia optima 1100 15W40. CI-4. I'll probably look for some additive too.
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: Laowho on December 19, 2017, 02:45:25 PM
Quote from: RIDGERACER383 on January 05, 2013, 09:40:10 AM
The green oil from Brad Penn "Penn Grade 1" looks good..High zink in it.
:2thumbs:
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: bee1971 on January 23, 2018, 07:42:39 PM
Don't know how accurate this arcticle is but



Interesting read about adding Zinc Additives to oil that already is high in zinc off the shelf

How adding the Zinc Additive changes the Wear characteristics of the oil itself

So maybe to much zinc can bee just as bad as not enough especially after breaking in the engine/cam

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-performance/398916-valvoline-vr1-oil.html
Title: Re: WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!
Post by: flyinlow on March 15, 2021, 11:43:12 PM
Update . I have been using Mobil 1 0w-40 European Formula for the last three years ( 12k. miles) 1100PPM zinc. Lunati Vodoo Hydraulic cam.  Change the oil once a year.