Recently I did a Borgeson steering box installation in the '70. While out getting used to the improved feel and better response, the 440/493 started runing rough and knocking. After some detective work, it was evident that the cam had lost a lobe or a few of them. I had some clatter for a while but was used to that. The Mopar Performance solid cams have a suggested lash of .028 intake, .032 exhaust....the widest that I have ever heard of. It was clattering more than usual so I pulled the valve covers and went about lashing the rocker arms. A few were much looser than usual and That worried me a bit. It ran a little better afterward and was a little quieter but within a few miles, it ran worse and worse. Back at home, I pulled the intake and valley pan to see some chipped edges on a couple lifters and a rounded lobe. I have had mixed luck with just swapping in another cam. Once I got away clean, another time, the second cam went bad within 500 miles. The right thing to do is to pull the engine to clean everything out. The debris gets in the oil and wherever the oil goes, the metal shavings go and grind away on internal parts.
I remember a few years ago saying that I wanted to do an engine removal & installation from underneath so I took some wheel dollies and scrap metal and made a cart to do it. I took a bare 440 block and a 727 and made a jig to fit them.
The whole thing only cost me a few bucks for bolts...not a bad deal!
I had to remove the steering column and shifter along with the wiring, hoses and A/C compressor. I left the compressor attached and secured to the core support.
The torsion bars got removed and pushed back. I dropped the engine while attached to the K member with the front suspension and steering mostly intact. The calipers were unbolted and hung up with wire.
This was my first time doing this and since nobody was around, I did it by myself. I was a bit nervous but it all went well.
I pulled the front accessories, the balancer, timing cover, headers and heads. The cam was worse than I thought. TEN lobes were on the way out though only seven lifters looked bad.
I have the engine torn down to a bare block. The rod and main bearings were mostly fine, just # 5 main had some scoring on the bearing. The crank will polish out just fine. I've decided to go another .010 over to .040 and install pistons with a 24cc Dish. At zero deck, this will put me at 9.8 to 1 with real quench. I was at 10.1 before using thick .075 Cometic head gaskets. I was .012 below deck with these Ross pistons plus the .075 put me at .87 quench distance....effectively worthless from what I have read.
I also said before that if I wiped out another cam, screw it, I'm going to a roller. I knew that it would cost more but I wasn't ready for just HOW much more expensive it is.....However, wiping out flat tappet cams sucks!
One guy that I spoke with asked about what oil I was using. For many years, I used Valvoline VR1. About a year ago, I bought some of this:
Dwayne Porter let me know that these types of high detergent oil tend to scrub the zinc OFF of the parts rather than clinging to them. I had also been adding a supplement to the oil thinking that it was a good thing. He then told me that most of the time, the additives can screw with the chemistry of the oil and make things worse. The argument against flat tappet cams has been the risk of lifter and lobe failure. Before the switch to this oil, the engine ran great. In fact, I put about 2000-2200 miles on another solid cam before switching to this '528. That cam, a wilder Lunati, also was used with the same type of Howards EDM lifters and I ran on Valvoline VR1 with that combination. It was now looking like the expense of a roller cam didn't make sense for me. I decided to reuse the Lunati since I kept the lifters stored in order. The reason that I pulled it out was that I got tired of the rougher idle in gear at stoplights. The 528 was supposed to be a better low rpm performer.
Both issues were true but now I have a manual transmission. There will be no idling in gear anymore.
I now have the engine torn down, cleaned and ready to go to the machine shop.
The oil pump will be replaced...look at the scoring from the debris that went through it:
I would probably stay with a mineral based oil with high zinc instead of a synthetic based oil for a flat tappet cam.
Sorry to hear all that!
Quote from: chargerbr549 on June 07, 2022, 08:08:16 AM
I would probably stay with a mineral based oil with high zinc instead of a synthetic based oil for a flat tappet cam.
Yeah, that is the plan. Everything seemed to be fine with the last 2 cams that I used VR1.
Years ago in a former machine shop I worked in we had some race motors that we built for the the local dirt track and they were always dependable motors then all of a sudden we started having roller lifter and roller rocker arm failures and the only thing that changed was the racers switching to a synthetic oil and to make a long story short one of the cam or rocker arm manufacturers we talked to said that synthetic oils don't have the film strength of a conventional oil and recommended to switch back to a conventional oil and the problem went away. Flat tappet cams depending on spring pressures and can have a very high psi on the contact area on the lobe (similiar to a needle bearing in a roller lifter under high spring pressure) so a high zinc conventional oil is the best insurance. IMHO
Quote from: Kern Dog on June 06, 2022, 07:40:40 PM
I have the engine torn down to a bare block. The rod and main bearings were mostly fine, just # 5 main had some scoring on the bearing. The crank will polish out just fine. I've decided to go another .010 over to .040 and install pistons with a 24cc Dish. At zero deck, this will put me at 9.8 to 1 with real quench. I was at 10.1 before using thick .075 Cometic head gaskets. I was .012 below deck with these Ross pistons plus the .075 put me at .87 quench distance....effectively worthless from what I have read.
I also said before that if I wiped out another cam, screw it, I'm going to a roller. I knew that it would cost more but wiping out flat tappet cams sucks!
One guy that I spoke with asked about what oil I was using. For many years, I used Valvoline VR1. About a year ago, I bought some of this:
Good call on the dish pistons, Thats what I have 9.7to1 , I also run the Lucas racing oil, Lucas products have been VERY good in my junk, I also run Lucas in my 2020 TA 392 , I ran VR1 for MANY years & have had quite a few cams go flat. was it the oil ???? who knows :)
Quote from: cdr on June 07, 2022, 12:32:43 PM
Good call on the dish pistons, Thats what I have 9.7to1 , I also run the Lucas racing oil, Lucas products have been VERY good in my junk, I also run Lucas in my 2020 TA 392 , I ran VR1 for MANY years & have had quite a few cams go flat. was it the oil ???? who knows :)
Thank you, Charlie.
I had good luck with the VR1, or at least I didn't see any failures from using it.
What I find strange is that once this cam started to fail, it didn't take long to get there. In a span of less than 50 miles, it went from running normal to running choppy and down on power. 10 lobes measured below spec but only 7 lifters looked bad. Weird....
VR1 here too, never a problem...
Joe
More parts cleaning and some paintwork has begun. The aluminum water pump was natural finish so of course, it dulls out and gets stained. I used metal etch primer then sprayed it with high temp aluminum color.
Every engine that I have built or cleaned up and painted has been done with spray cans. I got pissed off at the crappy quality of the Mopar Performance aerosol cans. I know that others had the same troubles.
I've grown tired of fading and peeling engine paint so this time I'm spraying the paint from a gun....Single stage urethane enamel with a catalyst in the following color...Go Man Go!
The timing cover was sprayed with Duplicolor Chrysler orange, the paint in the can and on the lid is the Go Man Go....
The engine bay and front frame rails had several areas with chipped paint so I masked off the entire car to avoid overspray.
I had some Flame Red single stage urethane enamel so I laid it on using a small "PreVal" sprayer. This allowed me to get in the tight areas and keep the oversparay down due to it's inherent low pressure pattern.
Yeah....I do intend to pull those UCA alignment cams to clean off the paint!
The engine has been at the machine shop for 2 1/2 weeks. I'm not in a huge hurry though since other tasks await me at home.
I disassembled the steering and K frame mounted components. Back in 2003, I rebuilt the front end and with everything apart, I painted all the parts to avoid surface rust. The steering linkage and spindles were painted a dark gray metallic. Of course over this time, there have been thousands of street miles that resulted in chips and scratches. For this time, I am trying something different. I stripped the paint using a wire wheel. The finish came out uneven so to even it out, I'll use 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper and a red Scotch Brite pad. I'm going to leave the linkage unpainted BUT coat them with Rust Preventative Magic (RPM) paste from ECS restoration products. This should allow them to look factory fresh without rusting. Even if some areas start to flash rust later, I can scrub and reapply more of this stuff.
Lots of flat cams years back when it was mentioned very little that dinosaur oil wouldn't have zinc anymore.
Thanks for the tip about adding additive to already zinced oil. I use Mobile One 15W-50 Synthetic in both rigs and added a bottle years back to Charger after an o change. I change the oil so much, 500 miles, I hope its not a concern?
Took us less than an hour to drop my K frame. Course my buddy had done it several times so he had a system, etc.
Great thread!
Im so far behind the times I play hell posting pix, smh.
I dont like synthetic with flat tappets regardless of zddp content. For my rollers, i run lucas racing oil and have never had issues with roller or rockers. I run jesel rockers and comp lifters. No issues with street driving and higher then average spring pressures although i do idle at 1300.
Thanks Joe.
I've heard good and bad about what oil people use. The issue that was an eye opener for me was that high detergent oil strips the zinc from the parts rather than allowing it to cling to them. What a waste.....
The K member was stripped of all bolt on parts and weighed.....
Back when I installed this K member, I painted it with Rustoleum gloss black. It held up okay but I didn't like the high sheen.
I wanted to go ever some of the welds again. This K member was reinforced at the steering box mount several years ago when I had it out. Back then I also welded washers around the LCA pin hole to prevent a failure in that high stress area, then welded washers on the front side where the strut rod bushings fit in.
First though, I stripped the paint with a 4.5" angle grinder with a wire wheel.
Penetrol by Flood works great at low luster protection of bare and painted parts. :2thumbs:
They look really good powder coated a semigloss black.
Powdercoated.....That may have worked if I had a dude at a place that owed me favors. I'm only guessing but I suppose they'd charge me over $400 to clean, blast and coat a K member.
I already had primer, base coat black and Matte clear that I bought for under $300. I think it turned out well.
I have all the parts painted and coated but decided to upgrade the tie rods and sleeves to the larger 11/16" size. I replaced one inner when I swapped in the Borgeson steering box and now I see that one outer feels sloppy. All 4 were installed new in 2003. If two were going out, the other two may not be far behind. The larger ones are a common upgrade. I ordered through PST. Solid sleeves in steel, not aluminum. I appreciate weight savings but aluminum threads there don't give me confidence.
The PST tie rod ends and sleeves arrived a couple weeks back. One sleeve was banged up during shipping. PST sent out a replacement.
The K member was set back on the cart for reassembly. The steering box is back in along with the idler arm and steering linkage. LCAs and strut rods are in. Sway bar too. The PST tie rod assemblies are robust. They add one pound each per side but the weight gain is worth it to have the durability.
As crappy as it sounds, I'm still waiting on machine work!
Yeah....10 weeks and counting. The machinist didn't have to pour the molten metal into a mold and create the dang engine block. The heads didn't even need to be rebuilt. I had the block bored, honed and decked. Pistons pulled from the rods. Heads resurfaced a small amount but he didn't even clean the heads. I had to scrub the chambers to clean off the carbon. One cam bearing came loose and will have to be replaced due to a strange ridge on the journal. The next bearing will have to be installed from the back of the block.
I painted the block catalyzed enamel GoManGo orange and it really shines! The water pump and housing, intake and heads were painted dull aluminum and then clearcoated. The new pistons are heavier that the old ones so I had to have the rotating assembly balanced. I'm waiting on that too.
Some of you might recall the video that made the rounds a couple months ago.....the Red '64 Mercury that had a stuck throttle and brake trouble. THAT video inspired me to upgrade my own brakes. I ordered everything through Dr Diff.....13" front brake kit, 11.7" rear brake kit and a hydroboost unit. THIS car will STOP better than anything I've ever owned!
Do you still have your second Charger so you can get your " fun car fix " while waiting on machine shop for your engine ?
Yes I do!
I have a few projects going so there isn't really any down time where I have nothing to do. ITs just that I wanted to get this car back together to drive it more this summer.
I had some delays that really put a kink in the project.
The machinist took a long time to do the work and it wasn't like I was getting much done. I wanted him to bore and hone, install the crank and pistons to establish deck height and deck the block to achieve .005 to .010 piston below deck. I need this to get the compression ratio where I want it.
The heads were fine but I asked him to do a light resurface to aid in head gasket sealing.
To recap:
Bore and hone.
Install crank, rods and pistons to establish deck height, then surface the decks to the desired number.
Clean block.
Install cam bearings.
Resurface heads.
This took 9 weeks and the guy isn't even that busy. His work is excellent and his prices are fair though.
He doesn't have a way to balance cranks though and these new pistons are 100 grams heavier than the old ones.
I brought the block home but had to take the crank, rods, pistons and rings to another shop for balancing. I painted the block with catalyzed enamel in GoManGo orange. This really glows!
The spray can paint jobs I've done always seem to dull out, chip and peel. This ought to stay looking nice for awhile.
I painted the water pump housing and intake too....
While I was waiting for the balance job, I started working on the brakes.
Some of you may recall seeing the YouTube video of that crash involving the red Mercury Comet....the one where the idiot kept driving it despite a sticky throttle and small brakes?
This inspired me to UPsize the brakes in the car. I made an order with Dr Diff. 13" Cobra front disc brake kit and the 11.7" rear disc kit and.....HYDROBOOST!
I have been weighing the parts that I have swapped.
Removal of the power booster and iron master cylinder was 15 lbs but the Hydroboost unit weighs 14. That is essentially a trade.
The front brakes though.....
The 12" Cordoba brakes add up to 42 lbs. Check out the weight of the bigger brakes!
That is a savings of 7 lbs per side while having better braking.
The LCAs, strut rods, spindles, lower ball joints, center link and sway bar were all sandblasted and then coated with Rust Preventative Magic....a coating that preserves bare metal. This will be better than paint and allow these parts to look natural finish.
Here is a peek at the hydroboost setup:
The white caps are blocking off the pressure ports. The one on the left comes directly from the power steering pump. The port on the right goes to the steering box. The HB unit has a return line port too. To make this work, I needed a power steering pump and reservoir with 2 nipples for fluid return. I took my original pump and swapped it and the brackets into a reservoir from a junked mid 90s Chevy truck with Hydroboost.
The Chevy reservoir is larger than my car version. This is better because it will hold more fluid. All the parts switched over and fit fine.
The hydroboost unit is paired with a 2 bolt aluminum master cylinder spec'd for an 85 Dodge D-150. The bore size is 1 1/8".
I made brake lines and installed them, then moved to the rear brakes.
I had ordered the 13" front kit and the 11.7" rear kit, both with matching drilled and slotted rotors. The existing rear brakes are also from Dr Diff, installed in 2006.
For years I was under the assumption that my rear rotors were the smaller 10.7" versions but they are the larger versions. The new ones are identical in size but are drilled and slotted.
I didn't have to change mounting brackets or crack open the calipers. I just exchanged rotors.
When I went to mount a rear wheel & tire, it seemed like I had an inadequate length on the wheel studs so I replaced them with these from Dorman.
I made new rear brake lines and considered the rear brakes completed.
I have been waiting and waiting for the engine stuff since I dropped off the block and heads in JUNE. The machinist did his thing and I got the engine back over a month ago but there have been other delays. He found that the new pistons were 100 grams heavier than the old ones and he didn't have the equipment on site to to balancing. I had to take the rotating assembly elsewhere. THAT took almost a month.
Now I have what I need here to get moving on the engine.
I painted the block with catalyzed urethane enamel in the color of GoManGo.
I cleaned the heads and ran them through the dishwasher along with the intake...
The intake and heads were painted with high temp dull silver, then covered with 3 coats of matte clear for protection.
The balance job was completed on Thursday so I began by putting the rods and pistons together. The pins are held in by Spiro-locks.
I had 4 rods on the wrong way and 4 on correctly. This was my first time putting rods and pistons together. I've built several engines but this is my first time with Spiro-Locks and fully floating pins. My machinist always pressed the pins in the other engines I've done.
I am using "Total Seal" rings. They require filing to fit the bore correctly. Their tech sheet shows a ring gap based on Bore size X .0045. For me, 4.36 X .0045 is .1962 or to be clearer, a .020 feeler gauge.
They show the top and 2nd ring to be the same. My last file fit set suggested a larger gap for the 2nd ring.
The rings were installed after being filed to the specification. Next up was the confusion about the rod bearings. In short, I ordered regular bearings when I should have ordered narrow bearings. Aftermarket crank and rods here so I need the narrower bearings. Charlie ( CDR) helped me out with this.
The new bearings shown below are too wide and encroach into the chamfered edge of the rod that will sit next to the counterweights.
I scrounged around the shop and found 13 of the 16 bearing shells that I took out when I tore the engine down. Charlie stated that the bearings should be labeled UPPER and LOWER. My new bearings didn't have those marks but the old ones do.
The stock and aftermarket rods are the same width at the big end.
The crank is in. Using Plastigage, it all checked out within spec. Charlie suggested that I check to see if the crank main journal fillets are the same as the rod journals. If so, the same bearing interference could occur. I'll check into that before installing the pistons and rods. The crank does spin easily though.
Hello....
The special rod bearings came in after waiting a week. Finally, I was able to install the pistons and rods. I asked the machinist to deck the block to get me between zero deck and .005. It looks like he got me between zero and .002. SCORE.
The Lunati solid cam is in. I had 2 Edelbrock timing sets that each had less than 3000 miles on them. Neither seemed to be as tight as new. They both had slack so I ordered a new one. I ran a Howards timing set with the 528 cam and when I pulled it, it was still tight. I had to wait another week for this timing set. It arrived Friday.
I'm anxious to assemble this whole thing but jeez...stuff keeps getting in the way. These next 3 Saturdays are spoken for with car shows I committed to awhile back.
Waiting for parts is a killer. It is what we do nowadays.
That is true.
The bearings came in and I installed the rods and pistons. Clearances were on the tight end of spec even with a standard crank and standard bearings.
The rest of the engine went together with no issues. I have plenty of piston to valve clearance despite the high lift of the Lunati cam.
The rest of the build went well. The engine was mated to the trans and all mounted on the K member.
The engine and trans were installed in reverse order of removal.....Using the home made cart and the 2 post lift.
It took a bit of figuring to route and form the hydraulic lines for the hydroboost unit but I did it.
On Sunday, it fired up on the first twist of the key. It runs GREAT but had a leak at the rear main seal. I pulled the pan and the rear seal retainer. I thought I may have installed the seal backwards but it was in correctly. IT looks like the leak was from the side seals on the retainer slipping out of place. I decided to skip the seals and just fill the voids with "The Right Stuff" RTV. Pan gaskets are in transit from Summit racing.
When I had it running, I was getting no assist to the steering so something is amiss in the system. The drive belt is tight, the pump was turning and not slipping, no abnormal noises from the pump but the steering isn't getting much fluid if any.
Nice work! Engine looks great all painted up.
Sounds like there is still air in the system. I know when I did mine it took a couple times to bleed the pump and hydroboost out. But once it burped out the air it was back to normal.
Thank you!
Aside from turning the wheel back and forth, what else can be done to bleed the system?
I was given absolutely no guidance or instructions on this HB unit.
Quote from: Kern Dog on November 02, 2022, 06:19:39 PM
Thank you!
Aside from turning the wheel back and forth, what else can be done to bleed the system?
I was given absolutely no guidance or instructions on this HB unit.
I just lifted the front and turned the wheel (I believe the instructions said not to go lock to lock but 3/4 of the way? I'll see if I can find the instructions I used) and pumped the brakes after each rotation to make sure the hydroboost reservoir was filling.
I put the oil pan back on, filled it with oil and it appears that the rear main seal is holding. SCORE!
Then, the steering assist stopped again. I'm not sure why.
I disconnected the hydroboost lines and tried a standard hose from the pump to the steering box. No assist.
The pump must be bad. Two weeks ago I messed around for hours juggling pumps, pulleys and reservoirs. I had a pump with a 5" pulley...I thought it would be a good thing to swap in the smaller pulley to get a higher volume of fluid. It turned out that the 5" pulley had too much forward offset and it wouldn't line up with the groove on the crank pulley.
I will have to replace the pump and report back.
At least the oil seems to want to stay inside the pan and with the brakes bled, once I replace the pump, I should be able to drive the car for the first time since June 1st.
Is that the junkyard pump you were messing with? Is the emergency brake on? :scratchchin:
It wasn't a "junkyard" pump. The reservoir was from a wrecking yard/junkyard. The pump itself was a rebuilt unit from a NAPA store.
The Saginaw pump and the reservoir come apart and can interchange with different year parts and brackets.
Today, I swapped the first pump back in. This is the one I had in the car from 2006 until a few weeks ago. It always worked fine. The only reason that I changed it was to use a smaller pulley for more boost. The original pump used a nut to retain the pulley, the smaller pulley only fits a later pump with a press fit pulley style.
I have steering assist like before but the hydroboost still isn't working. The brakes feel like a power brake car with the engine off. Completely UNsafe to drive. I drove around the back yard a bit to see if it would pump up but it didn't change.
I sent an email to Dr Diff to see if he had a suggestion. He is at the SEMA show in Las Vegas and may not get back to me until Monday or later.
It is strange for the fluid to go from the pump to the HB unit, pass through it to the steering box yet provide zero boost to the brakes.
I am tempted to pull this unit out and reinstall the 15/16" manual master cylinder I had before Dr Diff offered me this hydroboost unit. I have the brake lines I made for it. At least I can move the car now.
Quote from: Kern Dog on November 05, 2022, 08:16:34 PM
It wasn't a "junkyard" pump. The reservoir was from a wrecking yard/junkyard. The pump itself was a rebuilt unit from a NAPA store.
The Saginaw pump and the reservoir come apart and can interchange with different year parts and brackets.
Today, I swapped the first pump back in. This is the one I had in the car from 2006 until a few weeks ago. It always worked fine. The only reason that I changed it was to use a smaller pulley for more boost. The original pump used a nut to retain the pulley, the smaller pulley only fits a later pump with a press fit pulley style.
I have steering assist like before but the hydroboost still isn't working. The brakes feel like a power brake car with the engine off. Completely UNsafe to drive. I drove around the back yard a bit to see if it would pump up but it didn't change.
I sent an email to Dr Diff to see if he had a suggestion. He is at the SEMA show in Las Vegas and may not get back to me until Monday or later.
It is strange for the fluid to go from the pump to the HB unit, pass through it to the steering box yet provide zero boost to the brakes.
I am tempted to pull this unit out and reinstall the 15/16" manual master cylinder I had before Dr Diff offered me this hydroboost unit. I have the brake lines I made for it. At least I can move the car now.
I dont think it will work the way it is plumbed , needs TWO returns to the pump
If the rebuild pump is A1-Cardone brand it's most likely defective. My all new Borgeson PS is very low boost at idle. Have you tried bumping up idle?
Quote from: cdr on November 06, 2022, 12:01:00 PM
Quote from: Kern Dog on November 05, 2022, 08:16:34 PM
It wasn't a "junkyard" pump. The reservoir was from a wrecking yard/junkyard. The pump itself was a rebuilt unit from a NAPA store.
The Saginaw pump and the reservoir come apart and can interchange with different year parts and brackets.
Today, I swapped the first pump back in. This is the one I had in the car from 2006 until a few weeks ago. It always worked fine. The only reason that I changed it was to use a smaller pulley for more boost. The original pump used a nut to retain the pulley, the smaller pulley only fits a later pump with a press fit pulley style.
I have steering assist like before but the hydroboost still isn't working. The brakes feel like a power brake car with the engine off. Completely UNsafe to drive. I drove around the back yard a bit to see if it would pump up but it didn't change.
I sent an email to Dr Diff to see if he had a suggestion. He is at the SEMA show in Las Vegas and may not get back to me until Monday or later.
It is strange for the fluid to go from the pump to the HB unit, pass through it to the steering box yet provide zero boost to the brakes.
I am tempted to pull this unit out and reinstall the 15/16" manual master cylinder I had before Dr Diff offered me this hydroboost unit. I have the brake lines I made for it. At least I can move the car now.
I dont think it will work the way it is plumbed , needs TWO returns to the pump
I do have two return lines. I had to pull a reservoir from a hydroboost Chevy truck to get a reservoir with 2 return nipples on it.
The plumbing looks really busy because I also have a power steering fluid cooler in place.
Quote from: b5blue on November 06, 2022, 12:08:17 PM
If the rebuild pump is A1-Cardone brand it's most likely defective. My all new Borgeson PS is very low boost at idle. Have you tried bumping up idle?
I have tried revving the engine up and pressing the pedal as well as steering the wheel. The car steers fine at idle just like before the HB installation. It just isn't getting any boost from the HB.
I don't know the brand of this unit. Dr Diff sent it to me with no guidance or instructions on how to set it up. I've been completely on my own. This unit has no external markings to identify it. I just used basic common sense to install it, fabricate lines and now...troubleshooting the problem.
It would be great if I can get this to work. I really want to have impressive brakes.
Read this: https://expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/gm-hydro-boost-brakes-for-newbies-like-me.137837/
That was helpful, B-5. Thank you. :cheers:
I liked this part...
Another item that is worth mentioning is the proper way to bleed power steering and hydroboost. Pretty much 90% of people think just starting the engine and turning the steering wheel back and forth is the proper method to bleed the system. The actual correct way to bleed the system according to steering engineers I work with is to lift the front wheels off the ground, start the engine and turn the steering wheel lock to lock 2 or 3 times then, turn off the engine, exit the vehicle and turn the wheels lock to lock about a dozen times by using the actual tire/wheel. The difference is the motion and pressures inside the box initiated by the movement of the pitman side of the gear box instead of the selector shaft side (steering wheel side). When it was explained to me it made perfect sense but I don't recall all of the details but has something to do with creating high and low pressures inside the box to push the bubbles out. That procedure works great the first time, every time....
I can try this tomorrow. It is easy and free....That is my favorite price.
good luck
Thank you.
I tried the procedure but it made no difference. In fact, the steering assist started to fade too.
I pulled the pump to find the flow control valve had moved forward out of position, compressing the spring inside. This is the second pump to fail, leading me to think that the hydroboost unit is AFU and damaging the pumps.
I tried another pump and while the steering is working again, I'm leaning strongly toward pulling this HB unit out and sending it back to Dr Diff.
I have options. This HB has cost me time and money with no sign that I am getting anywhere with it. I could have been driving the car a month ago if I wasn't messing with all the stuff to make it work.
I have a manual master cylinder, sized 15/16". With that, I'm thinking of altering the pedal ratio by drilling a hole for the pushrod above the stock hole.
If that isn't enough, I'll go back to a vacuum booster even if I need a vacuum pump to make it work.
The hydroboost unit is out and will go back to Dr Diff if he wants it.
If you have ever changed a master cylinder in these cars, you know the under-dash gymnastics that are required to get to the bolts or nuts. You need to be young, flexible or thin.
I am at least one of those things.
The brake pedal is out. I decided to swap it for a modified pedal with better leverage. I could have modified the manual spec pedal but instead, I cut the foot pad on the A/T pedal that I had modified several years ago.
Back in say...2014, I pulled the brake pedal and drilled a hole above the stock pushrod hole. The math is as follows: Center of the top hinge to the center of the brake pedal pad is 12". Center to center of the hinge to the pushrod hole (stock) is 1.75". This is a pedal ratio of 6.85 to 1. Moving the hole UP to measure 1.5" center to center improves the ratio to 8 to 1. It isn't a gigantic change but it was noticeable. Back then, I had power brakes with reduction linkage so that improvement was lost a little in that. With a manual setup, it is a direct ratio with none of the reduction so in theory, it should result in a greater difference.
This thread was initially about the engine rebuild but the brakes and steering were worked on while the engine was out so that stuff gets mentioned in this thread as well. I've tried to update this thread but when I have tried to post pictures, the bullshit antique software of the forum kicks it back with that fucking "you've already submitted this image" garbage. What the fuck is the point of that stupid feature? It is one of the single most idiotic and problematic feature of this forum. Why is it a problem to post the same picture twice?
Yeah, I always get the same stupid excuse....just change the name of the file...yeah, well what if I DID change the name and the new name is one that I used here 10 years ago? Yeah...that actually happens. I tried twice and fuck it...
Do you know the file "name" can be random junk mixed up like sdfg234ect or @#E$GAppp. :scratchchin:
Just use what ever name you want for your picture but then ad the current date to the photo also will fix most of your name problem on the picture file
Thank you. This is very frustrating.
I made a specific file for pictures to post on THIS site, trying to make it easier by making them small enough and to categorize them with somewhat unique titles and STILL they bounced back. What the hell? Maybe sometime over my ten year membership, I had the same idea for a name that I had last week and this system refused it. That is simply a shitty operating system.
I know that the site is FREE to members and costs money for the owner to maintain but the man should either upgrade the site or sell it to someone who will. THIS is the only forum that I know of that has such a weird glitch like this.
In summary.....
In May of this year, I installed the Borgeson steering box. Within 10 days, the cam went flat in the 440-493 and I pulled the engine to go through it.
While the engine was out, I decided to upgrade the brakes.
THAT turned out to be the biggest hurdle of the whole project.
The car weighed 3940 lbs and has a Tremec 5 speed transmission.
Before the engine removal, I had 11.75" Cordoba front disc brakes with 2.75" single piston calipers, the Dr Diff 11.7" rear disc brake kit with 1.5" single piston calipers and a 1975 Dart power booster and 15/16" master cylinder. Braking was decent but not excellent.
I wanted to improve the braking to a level on par with newer cars so I ordered a 13" front brake kit with drilled and slotted rotors from Dr Diff and while I was at it, matching rear rotors. He also sent me an experimental hydroboost unit to install, test and report about.
I formed the hydraulic lines for the hydroboost, sourced a Saginaw P/S reservoir with 2 return line nipples, the suggested 79-93 Dodge D-150 2 bolt 1 1/8" master cylinder and screwed it all together.
Right away, the HB provided no boost while the steering worked normally. I bled the brakes and still, the HB was inop but soon, the steering assist began to fail. I put in another pump and the same thing happened again. A 3rd pump started going bad so I removed the HB and boxed it up to return it. I tried a number of bleeding attempts with the HB system with no success so I felt that I gave it a fair shot.
I installed a 15/16" master cylinder in an attempt to make a manual brake system work. I've driven and owned several manual disc-drum A bodies and the braking is excellent with them. I expected similar results from this car but was disappointed in the feel and performance. Pedal effort was very high and brake force was very low. I don't have gauges to test the pressures.
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Yesterday I noticed that when I bench bled a master cylinder, that the front port (which is supposed to serve the rear brakes) got fluid and bubbles first. This surprised me because with the front brakes assuming the majority of the braking force on street cars, I'd have expected the rear port (which is supposed to serve the front brakes) to get the fluid first.
Today I lined up all the master cylinders that I have gathered....
Three are cast iron 4 bolt units. One at 1" and two of them 15/16".....They all had 9/16" front ports, 1/2" rear ports and when bench bled, pushed fluid equally in time front and rear.
Two of the aluminum units were 1.03" and had 9/16" front, 1/2" rear ports and pushed fluid equally.
One aluminum one was 15/16" and had weird 3/8" ports. The front reservoir was longer but the whole reservoir was sloped.
It pushed fluid to the front first.
The final two MCs are the ones I've been working with lately. Both 15/16" and 1 1/8" units have identical ports and push fluid to the front reservoir first.
As I closed up the shop tonight, I can say that I may have the brakes at a point where I am satisfied.
I first had the 1 1/8" MC with the '75 Dart vacuum booster and a vacuum pump mounted behind the left headlights up in the wheelwell.
The pedal was too firm and the brake force was too high.
I switched to the 15/16" master cylinder that I had previously used in the attempt to run a manual based setup.
This resulted in a much better feel and better braking. Low speed braking is excellent, higher speed braking is better than before I started this whole project but not as good as I had hoped. I really wanted to be amazed at the performance like I am with newer cars. Again, it is very good and it will serve me well.
So you use a Mopar type front disk/rear drum master, boosted, for all wheel 13" disk? Got pics?
I used aluminum master cylinders with large reservoirs based on the advice of Dr Diff.
As soon as I resize some pictures, I'll gladly post them up.
Quote from: b5blue on November 24, 2022, 08:17:55 AM
So you use a Mopar type front disk/rear drum master, boosted, for all wheel 13" disk? Got pics?
Dr Diff sells a Ford based 13" front disc brake kit that fits the 73-76 A body disc spindle/knuckle. He includes adapter brackets to fit the aluminum calipers. They use 2 pistons, sized 1.59" each.
The entire front brake kit shed 14 lbs over the 11.75" Cordoba rotors and 2.75" iron calipers and brackets.
The '528 cam had a wide lobe center which delivered decent idle vacuum. The Lunati cam I have now is ground on a tighter lobe center so the vacuum is under 10" at idle. To run a vacuum booster, I needed a vacuum pump.
I ran this pump before the last time I used this cam. It worked great then.
I cleaned it up before installing it despite the fact that it is in a place where it will get dirty. I just can't bring myself to install grungy parts.
It has been awhile since the last update.....
The vacuum pump puts out 22" of vacuum but the brakes still didn't feel tip top. I changed the rear brake pads and drove it. Stopping power is great but inconsistent. I can stop a few times with great confidence and then randomly it will feel like there is no assist. I don't know if this is a matter of a finicky booster or what. I have a vacuum cannister that I might plumb between the pump and the booster. The added reserve may be all that is needed. If not, maybe the 47 year old booster needs to be rebuilt or replaced.
I still need to align the front wheels.
I installed an FBO ignition box and Flamethrower coil. This resulted in a bouncing tachometer needle. I'm told this does happen in some cases so thanks to Wayne in Canada, I have a diode that I will solder in the wire leading from the coil to the tachometer.
The engine runs great and makes plenty of power. The tighter valve lash (Compared to the '528 cam) results in quieter running. The Tremec shifts great.
Always thought about getting one of the FBO boxes mainly for the REV limiter but also for the plug and play.
Are you running a stock Tach? Or any idea why the bouncing problem?
The gauge cluster is a Dakota Digital unit. I've read that some tachometers work fine while others react like mine.