Currently spraying K38 on front fenders and trunk lid. Pot life listed is 3/4 - 1 hour at 70 degrees. Here in Florida, shop temperature is 90 degrees or so. At this temp pot life seems to be about 20 minutes. With a dry time of 10-15 minutes between coats, a full cleaning of the spray gun is required between each coat. WHAT A PAIN!!
PPG only list 4 to 1 mix ratio with no provisions for temp variations. Are there any other options for mixing/spraying this primer that anyone has used? Any way to avoid cleaning of gun between coats?
Thanks.....Kevin
This may possibly help, Use half as much hardener &/or a Retarder to slow it down. I know when I had this Problem with a thick Sikkens primer the tech sheet said use half as much hardener. LEON.
Hi Kevin,first,if you are at 90 degrees,yes your pot life goes down,but also does your time between coats.From 10-15 minutes,it probably goes down to about 5,or just make sure you have flashed off before you apply the next coat.I use K38 occasionally,it's a good primer but prefer NCP 271 alot more.IMO,K38 drys fast anyway,so if you are at 90 degrees you will be recoating alot faster than 10-15 minutes.
Second,if you noticed whatever primer you are spraying,if you have mixed up enough to do 4 coats,by the time you get to your 3rd coat it seems like the gun is spraying dry,it's because the primer is drying in the tip as it sits waiting for the next spray,Even if I have enough made to spray 4 coats,I still clean my gun after the second coat(even if I have to rush),so it sprays just like it did on the first 2,nice pattern and wet.Quite honestly,I try to only make enough for 2 coats,clean the mixing cup and make more later for the 3rd and 4rth.
DO NOT become a chemist,whatever the tech sheet offers you for mixing ratios and products to use in it,that's what you do!!!The only other additions for K38 are DX84 Enhancer(to speed it up if you're in a cold environment)and DX814 Flexibalizer(name says it all).
I have been using PPG for years with great results and have seen people alter from what tech sheet says,then blame the product when something fails .99% of the time when a paint product fails it is the users error.Bottom line,there is just to many hours in doing a paint job/resto,etc to be risking something going wrong,especially if you are a shop and have a call back because of it.If it boils down to cleaning the gun that frequently,so be it. :Twocents:
Quote from: 69 OUR/TEA on July 23, 2008, 05:05:57 PM
Hi Kevin,first,if you are at 90 degrees,yes your pot life goes down,but also does your time between coats.From 10-15 minutes,it probably goes down to about 5,or just make sure you have flashed off before you apply the next coat.I use K38 occasionally,it's a good primer but prefer NCP 271 alot more.IMO,K38 drys fast anyway,so if you are at 90 degrees you will be recoating alot faster than 10-15 minutes.
Second,if you noticed whatever primer you are spraying,if you have mixed up enough to do 4 coats,by the time you get to your 3rd coat it seems like the gun is spraying dry,it's because the primer is drying in the tip as it sits waiting for the next spray,Even if I have enough made to spray 4 coats,I still clean my gun after the second coat(even if I have to rush),so it sprays just like it did on the first 2,nice pattern and wet.Quite honestly,I try to only make enough for 2 coats,clean the mixing cup and make more later for the 3rd and 4rth.
DO NOT become a chemist,whatever the tech sheet offers you for mixing ratios and products to use in it,that's what you do!!!The only other additions for K38 are DX84 Enhancer(to speed it up if you're in a cold environment)and DX814 Flexibalizer(name says it all).
I have been using PPG for years with great results and have seen people alter from what tech sheet says,then blame the product when something fails .99% of the time when a paint product fails it is the users error.Bottom line,there is just to many hours in doing a paint job/resto,etc to be risking something going wrong,especially if you are a shop and have a call back because of it.If it boils down to cleaning the gun that frequently,so be it. :Twocents:
VERY well said !! :iagree:
Thanks guys for the feed back. I had not considered that the dry time would go down as you said, very good point.
I am having trouble getting a single wet coat laid down. It's drying before I can get the first coat down. I'm mixing 8-10 oz at a time. I'm sure I'm not the fastest painter but....
Attached is a picture of the paint booth set up. Should this primer be smooth when dry? I'm ending up with a rough surface using a Ingersoll Rand HVLP gun with 1.4 tip. Gun says max pressure of 43 psi on handle. I am assuming that results in 10 psi at the cap. Gun literature says nothing. I have varied pressure from 25 to 40 with same result.
The epoxy primer laid down smooth but I did have some problems with the gun not feeding continuously. It would occasionally feed for 2 feet and skip 3 inches or so. I made sure cup vent was not clogged, air pressure is steady coming into gun based on gauge regulator connected at gun.
I know I'm throwing a lot of things in on this but maybe you guys have some ideas that will help.
Thanks....Kevin
I dont like HVLP's but not in California either. I'd suggest a non HVLP with bigger 2.0 tip/Fluid nozzle. I specifically bought a cheap $50 2.0 tip primer gun just for that occasion. Works for me. Dont care how it lays down, I'm going to block the hell out of it anyways. LEON.
Hey Kevin,you need to fix that problem with that gun or get a new one,you do not want dry spray or light spots varying like that.I use my Devilbiss GTI with a 1.5 tip and it works fine.K38 is designed to be sprayed with a 1.4-1.6 tip,it is to be no more than 2.5 mills dry per coat,not to debate with Leon,but a 2.0 tip to me is to large for a urethane primer,but more suitable for polyester primer where a 1.8-2.4 tip is needed.If you are dealing with a panel that is going to be needing alot of blocking ,repriming,blocking,repriming,you should switch to a polyester primer to get your high build,then once you get it straight where you want,go back to the urethane.
Also a couple things to keep in mind about K38 if you don't already know and is important,I see you primed the whole panel,if you do some blocking or more bodywork and need tp put more on,you must prime the whole panel.K38 cannot be spot primed over itself,it must be at least covered larger than the last area but in your case the whole panel.And K38 needs to have a finished sanded thickness of 2.0 mills or more for ahesion purposes,so if you break thru while sanding,you need to reprime the fender again.
I'm at a loss as to what else to try with the gun. I guess I may have to replace it. Thanks for the info on spot priming. I saw that note in the tech sheet but 69 OUR/TEA's wording is clearer. Should K38 be smooth after spraying?
Thanks....Kevin
Hey Kevin,yes it should be smooth,smooth enough so if you wanted to sand with 320 grit.
Thanks for all the help. I will keep you guys informed.
If you want it smooth then you dont want to go with my 2.0 tip. Better use a 1.4 for smoothness. Have fun. LEON.
Kevin,
I hsad the same problem!
Hemi hampton is correct in stating that yiu need to use a bigger tip. you said that you hav e a HVLP gun, but did not say if it was a siphon or gravty feed. A 2.0 tip in a gravity feed is not the same as a 2.0 tip in a siphon. The siphon has to b bigger as the siphon action with the air needs a larger tip size for the compined spray. The Gravity relies on gravty so the size of the tip is all liqud, no air.
Wehn temp goes up, the pot life gets shorter. This is obvious, based on set temps. Call the manufacturer tech line, (not the paint store) and have them explain to you that there is a product called extender. (Just as the D84 was the accellerator)., Extender allows the hardener not to harden quickly and slows pot life. A retarder is used for slowing down dry time after it is sprayed on the pannel. It would help with orange peeal and texture layout. Thikn about it. with high temps, the reducer that is built in the primer is dryed too quickly. Therefore adding reducer will help the spray of the product, and will decrease the viscosity or thickness of the prodct. This will both help you situation.
Lastly, switch to another primer. K38 is fast, or put extender or reudcer in it. Try DPS3055 which is a slower product that my paint store recommended to me.
If you read the tech sheet for K36 it say's that adding reducer will double the pot life time. I assume reducing the K38 would provide the same benifits. The reason the tech sheet does not give that option on the K38 is because it is not intended to serve double duty as a optional sealer like the K36 does. Give this a try & see what happens, 4-1-1 with slow dry DT Reducer. Try it with & without a bigger tip & then decide which you like better. LEON.
If you take only one thing from this thread ....let it be this: DO NOT BECOME A CHEMIST!!!! follow the product tech sheet to the T and you will not have trouble! A 2.0 tip is WAY too big for primer surfacer UNLESS its a siphon feed gun. If the K38 is sprayed correctly it will be very smooth................just remember they write the tech sheet for a reason! don't do things that are not outlined within the pages for the product you are using or you will probably end up with a mess in the long run. :Twocents:
If he went exactly by the tech sheet then he would have to wait for a 70 degree day to prime. Heres what you do then. Call the Hot line for advice. LEON.
Quote from: hemi-hampton on July 31, 2008, 07:47:18 AM
If he went exactly by the tech sheet then he would have to wait for a 70 degree day to prime. Heres what you do then. Call the Hot line for advice. LEON.
Yes BUT the last thing a nivice (no offense) needs is advise telling him to alter a product. The tech line is good advise though!
I'll agree with you on going by the book & doing it right. If he was to talk to my buddy that runs the PPG Paint school here in Detroit (novi) he'd straighten it out with some good advise. LEON.
Good discussion, guys. My gun is a gravity feed one. By the tech line are you talking about this number: 1-800-647-6050? Will they answer questions to anyone who calls?
I guess switching to another primer might be an option. I bought 2 gallons of K38. Maybe the paint store would take the unopened one back. I still have a lot of the first gallon left. At $228 a gallon with catalyst it sure is expensive. I went with it since it is so highly praised by guys on here like Drop Top. Has anyone heard from him lately?
Kevin
Quote from: hemi-hampton on July 31, 2008, 07:47:18 AM
If he went exactly by the tech sheet then he would have to wait for a 70 degree day to prime. Heres what you do then. Call the Hot line for advice. LEON.
It does not say to wait till 70 degrees to spray, it is telling you the spraying characteristics,pot life,and dry times to sand "AT" that temp.I have sprayed this primer at colder and hotter temps,I use my Devilbiss GTI w/1.5 tip,works great for me.Just like when you spray clear,depending on the temp,you may have to recoat sooner or later then what the tech sheet says.68mmcharger has yet to get a new gun and try that and tell us how it works.
Never said it said you had to spray at 70 degress, he said being 90 degrees it's drying to fast for him & tech sheet gives no options/ alternatives to slow down drying time. Ihot68 seems to be saying since no options on tech sheet nothing you can do to slow it down, only thing you can do is go by tech sheet. All I know is I dont have this problem with my primer spraying. Seems everybody else in here has the answer for him so I'll stay out of this conversation from this point on. LATER.
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 01, 2008, 12:16:58 AM
Never said it said you had to spray at 70 degress, he said being 90 degrees it's drying to fast for him & tech sheet gives no options/ alternatives to slow down drying time. Ihot68 seems to be saying since no options on tech sheet nothing you can do to slow it down, only thing you can do is go by tech sheet. All I know is I dont have this problem with my primer spraying. Seems everybody else in here has the answer for him so I'll stay out of this conversation from this point on. LATER.
What I meant about staying with the tech sheet was about the the mixing of the primer. The temp should only change the way its sprayed!
If its hotter than 70 the flash times between coats will be less and if its cooler than 70 you will need to wait longer for it to flash between coats.
My main point is that you should never mix things into a product that arent on the tech sheet!! If it was widely accepted to add something to it the techs would have it listed in the sheet! When you are dealing with a chemical there are enough variables without throwing in some reducer or enhancer etc. into the mix too. :Twocents:
Heres what one of my PPG Gun chart has to say. Some say a 1.8 tip to big but here it is in black & white from PPG themselves. All I know is that out of 25 years of spraying my rule of thumb is the thicker the material the bigger the tip. A .08 tip is good for super smooth atomization on certain products.
Don't want to :horse:,but the chart says the 1.8 is for a larger fan for going faster and complete jobs.Pretty much I prime panels individually,maybe two at a time,thats just me.That chart shows the PRI gun as the gun for using the products metioned,K38 using a 1.6 tip.Drop down to where it shows sealers,as I said I have/use a GTI,cross over and it shows for the same jobs it uses a smaller tip,so the gun apparently atomizes differently than the PRI.It does not show reccomended tips for when using a GTI for their primers,but I still use it for priming,and as I had said I use mine with a 1.5(the gun came with 1.3,1.4,and a 1.5),no problems.One more note,as has been mentioned that since K36 offers a reducer that can be added by the tech sheet,and K38 does'nt,note on the chart showing the smallest tip for K36 is a 1.4 and the K38 being a 1.6(with the PRI gun).That is pretty much showing you that the two products are different and don't assume that because you can put reducer in K36,that you can do the same to K38.
Anyway,as I said,I think the biggest problem that 68mmcharger is having is with his gun,and before he calls the primer the culpret,get a new gun,a name brand one from an autobody supllier,not from home depot.:FWIW,NCP271 is my primer of choice from the PPG lineup.Twocents:
Sprayed some more K38 today. Tried taking the strainer below the paint cup out and gun worked much better. At least now I get a steady spray at risk of clogging spray cap. Had to narrow fan width down and move fairly slow to get a wet coat. Surface is a LOT smoother. My Ingersoll Rand gun came from a tractor store, not Home Depot. Does that make it better?? :icon_smile_big:
Temp was 82 in shop today. Primer sprayed better. At least I was able to get 10 ounces down without it drying in gun.
Will the PPG tech line guys talk to anyone that calls?
Kevin
You said yourself the 1.8 is for moving faster, If it is drying to fast & your moving to slow then you want to move faster. :slap: :shruggy: :Twocents:
P.S. Charts back up what I been saying. 1.4 for k36 & 1.6+ for k38. Why, Because the k36 is thinner then k38 especially when reduced & used as a sealer. I thought all this was common knowledge & common sense.
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 01, 2008, 12:16:58 AM
Seems everybody else in here has the answer for him so I'll stay out of this conversation from this point on. LATER.
Quote from: hemi-hampton on July 24, 2008, 06:20:20 PM
. Better use a 1.4 for smoothness. Have fun. LEON. :scratchchin:
:shruggy: :slap: make up your mind
I was being sarcastic with the 1.4 comment. :pullinghair: :ohhthesarcasm: :insertsarcasm: :sarcasmalert: :-*
Hey Kevin, This seems odd that you are having these problems and so many folks are arguing back and forth over the situation. I have a good friend who IS a PPG rep and he indicated to me that in the south, where are temps are hot, it is obvious that a bigger tip gun is needed to spray in a hotter environment. A 1.8 is a standard spray tip for a primer gun. If some folks are using a GTI with a 1.5, well then that setup in a GTI Devilbliss may be a good combo, but a 1.5 in a typical GRAVITY (BECAUSE NO ONE SPECIFIED WHAT THE GUN IN QUESTION WAS YET) feed a normal Clear tip.
My PPG friend said that 1.8, with K38 is a perfect set up. Normal spray pressure of 25 PSI or what ever the GUN not the P Sheet but the GUN requires at the tip, is what is to be used.
The Tech Sheet is just that. A tech sheet, which is produced for IDEAL conditions, and as we know that is why chemicals need to be altered, as most do it yourself individuals do not have ideal conditions.
It sounds like the correct gun, with the correct mixture and additional reduction as needed would cure your problem all together. I have had to add reducer and even extender as I stated previously, to K38. In nature K38 is a great FAST primer which is nothing more that K36 with more talc in it to produce a higher build. Once finished with the Gallon of K38, try using DPS3055 which is a K36 type primer (ISO) that is slower to work with. My PPG Friend said that is why this product was created. The PPG Tech line at 440.572.6100 can always help as well.
The best solution for most paint problems is experience and giving yourself an education so you do not have the same problem in the future.
Thanks for the info 83CHARGER2.2. I will contact the PPG tech lilne regarding a K38 reducer/extender.
Looks like I need to replace my Ingersoll Rand gun since there are no tip options for it. I have been looking at the Devilbliss FLG-653B Master Kit at tcpglobal.com. They have this setup for $229.00 which comes with a 1.3, 1.5, 1.8 and 2.2 mm tips, case and regulator. Does anyone know how this gun compares to Devilbliss's GTi-620G? The GTi is $359.00 with a 1.3, 1.4, 1.5 mm tip, case and regulator.
Talked to the PPG tech line today. He said there was no extender available for K38 to extend pot life. Looks like I will just have to deal with the short pot life.
I ordered a Devilbliss GTI gun with the 3 tips tonight, hopefully I'll have it before this weekend. 1.5 is the max tip size in the set. Probably should have ordered the 1.8 at the same time but I'll try the 1.5 and see how it works.
I'll keep you guys updated.
Hey Kevin,
that's good,you'll be happy with that gun.One thing you can get for the GTI is the ziplock bag kit,works great,allows you to spray upside down and makes cleanup of the gun simple.I only use it when I am spraying paint,(base and clears),epoxy and sealers.Primer is just alittle too thick to get through the small plastic bushing that you install in the bottom of the gun with the bag.Also,a good starting point for you with the GTI when spraying primer,turn the fan control on top all the way in(clockwise),back out about 1/4 turn and try it there.That's around where I spray with for priming,yeah the fan pattern is'nt huge,and you'll have to go a little slower,but you should find it will work fine with the 1.5 tip.
BTW,did the tech line tell you to add reducer? :scratchchin: Also,when you're all done with your stock of K38 try NCP271,I think you'll have found you're new favorite primer.Take care
69 OUR/TEA - Thanks for the gun set up tips. The PPG tech line said there was a reducer but all it would do was extend the dry time, not the pot life. We didn't discuss which one since it did not provide what I was looking for.
Does the GTI have a strainer below the paint cup? If so, do you leave it in with K38. My existing gun worked much better with the strainer removed but still not right.
Kevin
No strainer in this gun,take it out no matter what gun,and whatever you are spraying.Just strain the paint with the disposible strainers given to you from the paint store.Good luck Kevin.
Kevin,
Dont forget, a GTI is a finish gun, not a Primer Gun. The GTI which was recommended by another post is a great gun, but a finish (Base clear) gun. Nothing is said that you cannot use this to spray primer, but any one who knows up to date spray guns will tell you to use a primer gun to spray primer, and a finish gun (GTI) to spray top coats.
A GTI's air cap atomizes the crap out of the material spray, eliminating most of the solvent in the spray procedure. That is what I was getting at before in a preivous post. A primer gun will leave the solvent in the mix to get it on the panel and to allow it to flow slightly. The primer gun will also have a huge tip for the higher solids products. A primer is a higher solids than a clear or definitely basecoat. The basecoats and clears need the atomization at the tip of a gun like a GTI so that it removes those solvents at the spray procedure. A primer does not have any where near the amount of solvent in it that a base coat color does, therefore the solvent in the primer, needs to stay in the primer so that you do not get extremely fast drying primer.
You may still have the problem with the GTI even with the BiG tip (1.8, 2.2, etc) Good luck. A perfect inexpensive primer gun is a Devilbliss finishline with a 2.0, or a Plus with a 1.8. ( A plus can be also used for finish coats, but is not an HVLP Gun, but VOC Compliant).
There was a reason that Hemi-Hamptons' PPG chart put the GTI in the sealer category, because it is a topcoat gun.
Good Luck!
Wow, your the only guy to listen to me. I guess only you & me noticed the GTI was not listed on my chart in the primer surfacer category for a reason. The reason it was deleted & not a option is because the 1.5 is the biggest tip available it seems for that gun. :-\ :rotz: :shruggy: :Twocents: LEON.
Quote from: 68mmcharger on August 05, 2008, 09:21:18 PM
Talked to the PPG tech line today. He said there was no extender available for K38 to extend pot life. Looks like I will just have to deal with the short pot life.
I ordered a Devilbliss GTI gun with the 3 tips tonight, hopefully I'll have it before this weekend. 1.5 is the max tip size in the set. Probably should have ordered the 1.8 at the same time but I'll try the 1.5 and see how it works.
I'll keep you guys updated.
Kevin,
Forgot to post this earlier but D886 is a universal extender for the entire Global line that will work fine in K38. My paint rep recomended this to me.
I got in the GTI gun and used it to spray a couple of coats on the fenders with the 1.5 tip. It works MUCH better that the IR gun with the 1.4 tip. It at least provides a steady spray and a smooth coat if I go slow. I will have to use it some more to decide if I move up to a larger tip.
Leon - Tips are available all the way up to 2.2 - $55.00 +shipping.
83Charger2.2 - Is there a recommended mix ratio for D886 with K38?
Your logic on the base/clear gun certainly makes a lot of sense. Is the atomization a function of the cap only vice the gun body? Looking at the Finishline 3 info it appears Devilbiss calls their guns a primer gun when you get into the 1.8 tip size range. Appears that the body is the same.
Kevin
Kevin,
I talked to my buddy who is a PPG rep again today. He said, and I thought this was correct in my head but I wanted to confirm with him. D886 which is in the Global PPG line and DX54 i nthe Delta Line are basically the same product. They are created to extend the pot life of a ISO CYANATE product. In other words any ISO primer, clear, sealer, etc. K38 is an Isocyanate primer and either the D886 or the DX54 extends the pot life. The mix ratio is 1.5 ounces to Ready to spray quart. So, 1.5 ounces per 32 ounces of mixed (primer and hardener mixed together) primer.
The guns I know about, the GTI is again, a great topcoat gun, but not a primer gun. The air cap is specific per gun. So they are not interchangable like the nozzle. The needle has such a taper in a GTI that it can accept various sizes of tips or nozzles, but the air cap is specific per Devilbliss gun. Prior to the GTI millenium, there was a straight GTI which took a No. 100 air cap, again different than your GTI millenium. Hope this helps.
:scratchchin: hhmmmm, Isn't that what I said/implied :shruggy: :shruggy: LEON.
:popcrn:
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 16, 2008, 10:40:21 PM
:scratchchin: hhmmmm, Isn't that what I said/implied :shruggy: :shruggy: LEON.
Not that I read anywhere. :Twocents:
Leon,
Why do you have such a strong NEED to be right about this, by making someone else wrong?
There are many guns that can do the job and many ways to do it!
Its not like the primer is going to turn into water if you use a gun thats mainly used for top coats. If it works use it!
And again about the additives, I will not use them unless its ABSOLUTELY necessary, There is always a negative risk involved with extenders and accelerators.....Thats why they don't list them in the P-pages (tech sheet) with the primer , because in most cases they are a band-aid.
To anyone reading this thread:
ALWAYS use the product as recommended in the tech sheet unless ABSOLUTELY necessary!!!!!! If you follow the recommendations of the the people who designed the product (especially the mix ratios) you will be far less likely to have problems with the product!!!
Quote from: 83CHARGER2.2 on August 16, 2008, 09:55:26 PM
Kevin,
I talked to my buddy who is a PPG rep again today. He said, and I thought this was correct in my head but I wanted to confirm with him. D886 which is in the Global PPG line and DX54 i nthe Delta Line are basically the same product. They are created to extend the pot life of a ISO CYANATE product. In other words any ISO primer, clear, sealer, etc. K38 is an Isocyanate primer and either the D886 or the DX54 extends the pot life. The mix ratio is 1.5 ounces to Ready to spray quart. So, 1.5 ounces per 32 ounces of mixed (primer and hardener mixed together) primer.
The guns I know about, the GTI is again, a great topcoat gun, but not a primer gun. The air cap is specific per gun. So they are not interchangable like the nozzle. The needle has such a taper in a GTI that it can accept various sizes of tips or nozzles, but the air cap is specific per Devilbliss gun. Prior to the GTI millenium, there was a straight GTI which took a No. 100 air cap, again different than your GTI millenium. Hope this helps.
He said she said! Do you have any of you're own real world experience you would like to share USING any of these products or USING any spray guns applying any of these products?
Ill bet if you ask you're rep , he'll say to only use the additives as a last resort.
I keep saying he needs a Primer gun. You dont use a top coat gun & then use that same gun for Primer. The 2 guns are used seperastely. Heres what you do to be more Specific. You buy a $300-$600 base coat gun, you then buy a $300-$600 clear coat gun, You then buy a cheap $50 Primer gun. The base gun only used for base, the clear gun only used for clear, the primer gun only used for primer. You dont waste $300 on a Primer gun, Thats Stupid. Primer guns dont last long & you dont want to keep replacing them at $300 a pop. I prime not just one panel at a time but Complete cars with K-38 with my cheap $50 2.0 tip gun & in 90 degree heat & have no problem. I dont have A/C in the spray booth. Use a smaller tip in Primer gun to use/spray the thinner sealer. This is just my opinion but if you do things this way you'll have no problem, I dont. LEON.
P.S. I use Sata Jet guns.
Here's a example of complete car primed in K-38.
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/hemihampton/69dartinnewprimer.jpg)
After Blocking & ready again for 2nd time around. If someone having a problem priming a fender while I do copmplete cars something is wrong. For one thing just use a white filter/strainer & never use one in the gun fior Priming, thats was a big part of your Problem. Most I know dont even strain there primer at all. LEON.
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/hemihampton/69dartinbooth.jpg)
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 17, 2008, 04:25:49 PM
I keep saying he needs a Primer gun. You dont use a top coat gun & then use that same gun for Primer. The 2 guns are used seperastely. Heres what you do to be more Specific. You buy a $300-$600 base coat gun, you then buy a $300-$600 clear coat gun, You then buy a cheap $50 Primer gun. The base gun only used for base, the clear gun only used for clear, the primer gun only used for primer. You dont waste $300 on a Primer gun, Thats Stupid. Primer guns dont last long & you dont want to keep replacing them at $300 a pop. I prime not just one panel at a time but Complete cars with K-38 with my cheap $50 2.0 tip gun & in 90 degree heat & have no problem. I dont have A/C in the spray booth. Use a smaller tip in Primer gun to use/spray the thinner sealer. This is just my opinion but if you do things this way you'll have no problem, I dont. LEON.
P.S. I use Sata Jet guns.
I just so happen to use worn topcoat guns for primer , when they aren't good enough for clear anymore I use them for primer and it works fine for me! Is this the only way to do it ? NO! but its one way and thats the problem with this thread is that you (LEON) seem to think that the only way it can possibly be done is YOU'RE way! and it simply is not the case!! There is more than one way to skin a cat !
And, by the way Ive shot primer with our GTI mil. and it works great for that.
P.S. I have Sata , Devilbiss , and Iwata guns!
I could post hundreds of Pics of cars I've done in Various priming stages & resto stages But I really dont think people want to be bored with such things as all my k-38 & other primer pics. LEON.
NO, I''ll agree many different ways of doing it. I'm saying this is what works for me. What I think would be best, if possible is being able to try both ways, the GTI 1.5 way & then my cheap Sharpe 2.0 way & then decide what works best for you & go with that. If it's your way then fine. My way fine. I dont care, just trying to help the guy out. LEON. :shruggy:
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 17, 2008, 04:25:49 PM
I keep saying he needs a Primer gun. You dont use a top coat gun & then use that same gun for Primer. The 2 guns are used seperastely. Heres what you do to be more Specific. You buy a $300-$600 base coat gun, you then buy a $300-$600 clear coat gun, You then buy a cheap $50 Primer gun. The base gun only used for base, the clear gun only used for clear, the primer gun only used for primer. You dont waste $300 on a Primer gun, Thats Stupid. Primer guns dont last long & you dont want to keep replacing them at $300 a pop. I prime not just one panel at a time but Complete cars with K-38 with my cheap $50 2.0 tip gun & in 90 degree heat & have no problem. I dont have A/C in the spray booth. Use a smaller tip in Primer gun to use/spray the thinner sealer. This is just my opinion but if you do things this way you'll have no problem, I dont. LEON.
P.S. I use Sata Jet guns.
yep i agree :yesnod: one for base coat , one for clear coat & a cheepy with a big fluid tip & air cap for primer . ..been painting 18 years my self ... & been using sata guns since the NR 95 came out . :coolgleamA:
Thanks Tan Top, looks like were on the same page . LEON.
Quote from: tan top on August 17, 2008, 05:16:23 PM
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 17, 2008, 04:25:49 PM
I keep saying he needs a Primer gun. You dont use a top coat gun & then use that same gun for Primer. The 2 guns are used seperastely. Heres what you do to be more Specific. You buy a $300-$600 base coat gun, you then buy a $300-$600 clear coat gun, You then buy a cheap $50 Primer gun. The base gun only used for base, the clear gun only used for clear, the primer gun only used for primer. You dont waste $300 on a Primer gun, Thats Stupid. Primer guns dont last long & you dont want to keep replacing them at $300 a pop. I prime not just one panel at a time but Complete cars with K-38 with my cheap $50 2.0 tip gun & in 90 degree heat & have no problem. I dont have A/C in the spray booth. Use a smaller tip in Primer gun to use/spray the thinner sealer. This is just my opinion but if you do things this way you'll have no problem, I dont. LEON.
P.S. I use Sata Jet guns.
yep i agree :yesnod: one for base coat , one for clear coat & a cheepy with a big fluid tip & air cap for primer . ..been painting 18 years my self ... & been using sata guns since the NR 95 came out . :coolgleamA:
I not saying You shouldnt have a dedicated primer gun, But it dont have to be a cheapy! a good older paint gun works well too!
P.S. The first complete paint I sprayed was when I was 11 years old in 1982 ....I was born into My Dads body shop , Its ALL Ive ever done period.
Yes, this is true but I dont think the guy asking this Question had a bunch of old spray guns laying around like us old timers, I got the impression he went out & bought his first gun, A $300+ primer gun. Yes this can be done also & I'm sure it would work, Just saying if I was to run out & buy my first gun or primer gun I dont think it would be a $300+ one, not saying it cant be done or wont work, just saying I'm not sure thats the best advise. If I'm jumping to the wrong conclusion here then just disregard this statement. LEON.
Quote from: 1hot68 on August 17, 2008, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: tan top on August 17, 2008, 05:16:23 PM
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 17, 2008, 04:25:49 PM
I keep saying he needs a Primer gun. You dont use a top coat gun & then use that same gun for Primer. The 2 guns are used seperastely. Heres what you do to be more Specific. You buy a $300-$600 base coat gun, you then buy a $300-$600 clear coat gun, You then buy a cheap $50 Primer gun. The base gun only used for base, the clear gun only used for clear, the primer gun only used for primer. You dont waste $300 on a Primer gun, Thats Stupid. Primer guns dont last long & you dont want to keep replacing them at $300 a pop. I prime not just one panel at a time but Complete cars with K-38 with my cheap $50 2.0 tip gun & in 90 degree heat & have no problem. I dont have A/C in the spray booth. Use a smaller tip in Primer gun to use/spray the thinner sealer. This is just my opinion but if you do things this way you'll have no problem, I dont. LEON.
P.S. I use Sata Jet guns.
yep i agree :yesnod: one for base coat , one for clear coat & a cheepy with a big fluid tip & air cap for primer . ..been painting 18 years my self ... & been using sata guns since the NR 95 came out . :coolgleamA:
I not saying You shouldnt have a dedicated primer gun, But it dont have to be a cheapy! a good older paint gun works well too!
yep thats true also :yesnod: ( 1 hot 68) best results is to get a fluid tip /needel & air cap set up 1.8 - 2.0 if its high build primer ....
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 17, 2008, 05:33:05 PM
Yes, this is true but I dont think the guy asking this Question had a bunch of old spray guns laying around like us old timers, I got the impression he went out & bought his first gun, A $300+ primer gun. Yes this can be done also & I'm sure it would work, Just saying if I was to run out & buy my first gun or primer gun I dont think it would be a $300+ one, not saying it cant be done or wont work, just saying I'm not sure thats the best advise. If I'm jumping to the wrong conclusion here then just disregard this statement. LEON.
BUT, If this guy is doing a car on his own , don't-cha think he'd be served well with a good all around gun , that maybe he can also spray his door jambs etc. with? instead of some "buffalo" 2.2 gun from harbor freight?
If your on a budget & can only afford one gun then yes. If not then no. I dont want to prime with a gun, then paint with it, then clear with it, then prime again then go to paint again & opps, have big chunks of old crusty primer shoot out into my paint job. Thats why you want 3 seperate guns. BUT, If your on a budget or not real nitpicky about possible primer shooting into your paint job while trying to paint because you've used the same gun to prime as paint & clear, or paint shooting out when clearing then this is all right. If you must use one gun just make sure you clean it real good after each use. I prefer to use 3 guns to avoid these types of problems but if someone wants to use one, thats OK with me. LEON.
O.K,figure I'll jump back in here since this thread is most likely to go into 3 pages,and the main topic from the beginning has been needing monster tip guns for priming.The orig poster of this thread said he had a problem with pot life and does he have to clean his gun every time while waiting for the next coat.Also said his gun is stopping and starting while he is trying to spray,come to find out he had left that little strainer in the bottom.FIRST BIG PROBLEM!!!!!! Second I will go on a limb and say it is not a popular gun by the auto body folks.
Now,it appears that he only has this one gun,and is in need of a new one for all his auto body needs.This is where I chimed in and said how I use my GTI Millenium(which has 1.3,1.4,1.5 tips),and liked it very much,and have sprayed everything out of it(except for polyester primer,for that I do have a gun with a 2.2 tip).With the investment of $300.00 ish ,he now has a gun he can base/ clear with(1.3),epoxy/sealer(1.4)and primer(1.5).Now it has been established that the GTI is NOT a primer gun,true,but as 1hot68 said,does not mean you cannot use it as one.It appears that 83charger2.2 is going on technical data and research of the gun,not actual field experience with it,because if he did actually have one and used,he would see it works!!!!
Seeing this post go on,makes me laugh because as it is happens I just today sprayed NCP with it,which if you compare the tech sheets of NCP and K38 ,it shows NCP is a higher solids than K38.On another note,I also have had this gun since around 2000,never wore it out from priming,etc.Pretty much a good reliable gun that I use on everything.
Now,Leon I see you talk about remnints of primer being in the gun and coming out while spraying something else,I dismantle the gun every time I use it,and fully clean it.Never had an issue.In fact,today while spraying the NCP,just as I told 68mmcharger,the pot life is the same as K38,and by the third coat,as the primer starts to set up in the gun while waiting,I quickly cleaned it out (a whole 2 minutes)before the third coat,threw the primer back in,presto!!! sprays like it's the first coat all over again.When I store the gun,it gets a 1/4 full a wash thinner left in it with the air cap soaking in it.
There are alot of alot of auto body novices on this site just as there are experienced ones,and one thing is we all appear to do things different,but if you are going to go into debate with others,have the offense of your reasoning be that you have been there ,done that.
I think 1hot68 ,which to me has good credability,is on the same wavelength as we are both saying how this guy gets an all around gun for himself at a good price.And IMO, with his climate down there,if the 1.5 is not cutting it,and he actually needs the 1.8 tip,for a mere $54.00,adds to his GTI setup.Take care of the gun and it will give him years of service!Take care.
If he's looking for a one size fits all gun then maybe this would be a good gun for that. Did not know that was the Question. The part about using the gun for multi purpose but possibly changing to a 1.8 for Priming sounds like a good one to me. Yes, totally dismantling the gun after each use is best & i'd prefer to do my self but my particular mass production at times prohibites that & all I use at times is a Gun Cleaner that pumps Laquer thinner threw partially dissassembled gun for 5 minutes. Sometimes I'm on Restos all week then new cars all week. With the new cars you can be spraying constantly all day different colors ect, lots of gun cleaning. Not like a Resto. SO, Guess it depends on intended purpose & situation. No insult intended. LEON.
:popcrn:
:popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :pity:
Here's the last complete car I primed in K38 a few months back. LEON.
T7 Bronze paint :scratchchin:
Thanks guys, you have provided me with lots of input. Some of it very lively.... and I have learned a lot.
As the starter of this thread my basic problem was spray gun not spraying steady spray and K38 drying in gun before it I could get 12 ounces or so out. Also primer surface was going on very dry and rough. There was a couple of things causing my problems. Biggest appears to have been the strainer in the gun slowing spray combined with the 1.4 tip size. The Ingersol Rand gun I was using had no options for different tip sizes so I replaced it, based on recommendations, with a Devilbiss GTI set up with multiple tips. Using the 1.5 tip and no strainer, there is no comparison with the IR gun. Looks like the primer was drying in the IR gun due to the 90 degree temp and the long time I was taking trying to spray the primer with the inconsistent spray.
The GTI is working great so far and I disassemble and clean the cap, tip and needle after each use. Since I have am restoring only this car at this point I needed a gun that ideally can used for primer, base and clear coat.
Sure is nice to have a site where one can get this sort of info and this much dialog.
69OUR/TEA - What tip size do you use for base and clear?
Kevin
Quote from: hemi-hampton on August 17, 2008, 05:03:55 PM
I could post hundreds of Pics of cars I've done in Various priming stages & resto stages But I really dont think people want to be bored with such things as all my k-38 & other primer pics. LEON.
You are right about that :yesnod: But atleast we got to see a few! ::)
Hey Kevin,
great to hear it is working good for you,I use the 1.3 tip for base and clear,seeing that you are using PPG products,I usually use DBC for base,and 2042(when I need a fast clear,real nice stuff),and 2021 for my overall clear.
69 OUR/TEA - Thanks for answering my question on tip sizes, even though you had already provided the info in a earlier post that I didn't read throughly.
:popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn:
:scratchchin:
:-* :-* :-* :-*
:popcrn:
Kevin,
The bottom line is that your problems (two) were pot life and a spray gun choice. The posts that I provided are basically saying that when purchasing a spray gun for a specific purpose, do not purchase something that you will be sorry for later. I know that there are a lot of folks that may be purchasing $300 guns and then, disposing of them, but most of the time your money needs to count for equipment that you need.
As some folks are stating "I not saying You shouldnt have a dedicated primer gun, But it dont have to be a cheapy! a good older paint gun works well too", and that a GTI works for 69OUR/TEA, that is great. But there are a lot of contridicting going on. In the world of urethane primers, you want a piece of equipment that will work 100% for that application. A primer gun is made for primer, just that. A worn gun or a topcoat gun are not designed for primer.
As 1hot68 stated that there is he said she said info, he may be correct for other posts, but not mine. I stated that I checked a PPG Rep just as a reference to verify my own usage and understandings. You, know a double check, that is what a factory REP is for.
I also feel that someone who is recommending a topcoat gun, and telling me that I am not basing my explanation on field experience, should evaluate himself again. I have been painting vehicles for flat rate, restoration, and commercial for over 20 years. I am not saying I am the best either, as some folks imply. I have two GTI's which I do not even use anymore, and my primary guns are SATA NR3000's and RP 3000's. Small tip guns for base, especially high metallic colors, 1.4 for Clear.
I have worked in primarily PPG Shops using K38, NCP 271, DPHS 52,etc and I have always used a specific DEDICATED primer gun for primer.
When you are priming a large area (overall of a car, Nose of a over the road truck, EUCLID, etc) in FLorida, you will give yourself an education and get the correct setup for what works in hot temps, with fast drying products. I would like to know how much K38 69 OUR/TEA has even sprayed??????????????
Every one will have their own opinion, but they all have to base upon the basics and the facts of a product. WIll a worn gun work for primer, sure. What wheres? The packing, the needle, etc. If the gun was so good as a topcoat gun, then why not rebuild at a fraction of the cost? (If it was a good namebrand gun to start with?).
Do not forget, in most professional environments, HVLP is a must, and fines are given for shops without these HVLP Guns in use. There for older guns are unacceptable. Hopefully you have solved or worked around your problems, and have achieved success. Good Luck.
::) :icon_smile_big: :paintingpink: Well that was an interesting thread.
I think you all are wrong and dont know what you are talking about...........
:poke:
Todd
Holy crap, all this (political debate) over some primer use? My two cents, like it's worth a damn right now.
Every paint has it's own designated use, primer, base coats single stage clear etc...
IMO, anyone using a GTI for primer, well, if it were my gun that person was using, he/her would be fired!
Primer requires at least, for correct amount applied a 1.5 to 2.0 tip. yes, you can use *whatever8 gun tip *you* chose to shoot primer with, but the correct amount of primer will not be laid down, unless you apply more then needed for whatever your doing.
As for *83charger2.2* you don't use your GTI guns anymore, sweet, give them to me! Unless they're worn out, keep 'em.
I shoot PPG, Dupont, Nasson, etc... All brands of paint, primer clear. It's my job to do what makes the customer happy. Certified in 4 paint products as well.
In closing, use a gun specified for primer only, just like a gun is used for base coats and clear only. Thats how the best results end up in the end.
Gees, what a long ass post this has turned into.
83charger2.2, a 1.4 tip for clear, wow, your really dumping the material on buddy, try a 1.2 tip w/your GTI gun and see the savings/difference.
Mark
Quote from: dads_69 on August 25, 2008, 12:42:46 PM
Holy crap, all this (political debate) over some primer use? My two cents, like it's worth a damn right now.
Every paint has it's own designated use, primer, base coats single stage clear etc...
IMO, anyone using a GTI for primer, well, if it were my gun that person was using, he/her would be fired!
Primer requires at least, for correct amount applied a 1.5 to 2.0 tip. yes, you can use *whatever8 gun tip *you* chose to shoot primer with, but the correct amount of primer will not be laid down, unless you apply more then needed for whatever your doing.
As for *83charger2.2* you don't use your GTI guns anymore, sweet, give them to me! Unless they're worn out, keep 'em.
I shoot PPG, Dupont, Nasson, etc... All brands of paint, primer clear. It's my job to do what makes the customer happy. Certified in 4 paint products as well.
In closing, use a gun specified for primer only, just like a gun is used for base coats and clear only. Thats how the best results end up in the end.
Gees, what a long ass post this has turned into.
83charger2.2, a 1.4 tip for clear, wow, your really dumping the material on buddy, try a 1.2 tip w/your GTI gun and see the savings/difference.
Mark
I think the main problem is that most people in this thread are missing the point............This guy is one guy doing one car, not a fully equiped resto shop !!!! he wanted a good gun to use for all aspects of doing his ONE car and he bought the gun, likes it,and is very happy with the results!! So I say we leave him be , and everyone can stop pumping their chests and go do some work!!
I couldn't agree more w/you. I'm almost sorry I even put in my two cents, but after reading some of the replies, well, oh well. Good luck w/the project.
FWIW, I use a lot of the roll primer by PPG in my garage. Works awesome, but for doing a complete car, never tried it myself, yet. Standard primer can be rolled as well, just goes on a lot thinner but gets the job done.
Mark
:no: :violin: :horse:
No Chest pumping here, but Dads 68, you may want to try a Sata RP with a 1.4. It is not a fire hose, but a finely atomizing German Spray Gun. Most folks that use Sata's never go back to anything else. I don't use the GTI's anymore just because when something works better for you, you normally stick with it. Good luck with the SXA1060 , or whatever primers you are rolling on.
I tried the Sata primer gun, didn't like it either. I'm after mill thickness when applying primer, not how well it lays out/evenly. Normally two coats maybe three depending on what I'm covering w/K-38 or Dupont primer.
I block most work down first w/240 then re-coat w/1 or 2 more then 320 wet sand if it's a resto job. If it's a collision repair quickie, then 3 coats w/my 1.8 tip gun and block down 280 dry and done.
Call me stubborn or cheap, but the price of a Sata gun is ridiculous. There are many others out there that do an equivlent job for less price.
Who's pumping out their chest here anyways? We're just discussing a paint issue. :shruggy:
Mark
Quote from: dads_69 on August 27, 2008, 12:21:45 PM
Who's pumping out their chest here anyways? We're just discussing a paint issue. :shruggy:
Mark
Mark ,I was not referring to you.... If you read back through the thread you will see who I am referring too.
I know you weren't referring to me, call me naive this week, I have a lot on my plate but I just didn't see was being ignorant.
Back to bed for me, ha...
Oh yeah, 68mmcharger (Kevin) any photos of the project yet?
Mark
Yeah, I use a super soaker. I don't know what the hell all you other guys are talking about, but I just load it up in my squirt gun and go to town. :D
Mark,
Latest progress pics are near bottom of this link. Work on fenders and trunk lid are further up in this thread.
Kevin
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,5655.0.html
Quote from: 1hot68 on August 17, 2008, 05:49:51 PM
BUT, If this guy is doing a car on his own , don't-cha think he'd be served well with a good all around gun , that maybe he can also spray his door jambs etc. with? instead of some "buffalo" 2.2 gun from harbor freight?
The great thing about the Harbor Freight guns is that you can throw it away and buy a new one for what it costs in thinner to clean my Sata Jet.