Hi fellers
I recently ripped my bubbling vinyl top off and discovered a rusted through roof skin. Luckily, AMD makes a replacement skin. I've read that it fits well on the old metal. I've done a little research and have found that it is quite the project. Both the windshield and back glass come out, and a couple hundred spot welds need to be drilled or ground out. I'm not sure yet if the drip rails are okay or not as the skin is still on the roof. My plan is to get all the tools and parts ready, then cut the old one off and swap it over. I was also lucky to find new window gaskets for under $100 for both. What I'd like from you guys is advice, past experiences, or thread links relevant to the project. I have a buddy who has most of the tools I will need (I think) so that will be a huge help. I've never worked with metal like this before so this is all new to me. Thanks guys!
-Mike
There is an old thread around ( oooooold one ) where somebody asked about the same and somebody replied with pics making the same job on a 68 Satellite. I'm not good using the board search engine, but you'll find the answers there... if you or anybody else finds the thread
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=104414.200
might be a start
Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on April 30, 2017, 06:45:45 AM
There is an old thread around ( oooooold one ) where somebody asked about the same and somebody replied with pics making the same job on a 68 Satellite. I'm not good using the board search engine, but you'll find the answers there... if you or anybody else finds the thread
Thank you for the info. That would be ideal. Like you, I also can't figure out this search engine. It seems pretty terrible to be honest.
Quote from: 70 sublime on April 30, 2017, 09:17:44 AM
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=104414.200
might be a start
Thank you thank you thank you! I've already learned a lot from that one and I've only been through half of it. Damn that charger was rough. That guy was a saint for taking that on.
I didn't clicked on that link before!... damn! that thing was bad... the 68 Satellite I'm talking about wasn't so bad
Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on April 30, 2017, 12:34:34 PM
I didn't clicked on that link before!... damn! that thing was bad... the 68 Satellite I'm talking about wasn't so bad
I can only hope the metal under my roof skin isn't that bad!
Worst part is going to be getting the roof skin out from under the quarter panels once all the lead is removed. And that alone is not an easy task
Quote from: gtx6970 on April 30, 2017, 03:57:10 PM
Worst part is going to be getting the roof skin out from under the quarter panels once all the lead is removed. And that alone is not an easy task
I thought they went over the top? I read somewhere that the roof was the last piece on...
Quote from: rikubot on April 30, 2017, 08:20:29 PM
Quote from: gtx6970 on April 30, 2017, 03:57:10 PM
Worst part is going to be getting the roof skin out from under the quarter panels once all the lead is removed. And that alone is not an easy task
I thought they went over the top? I read somewhere that the roof was the last piece on...
Yes the roof skin goes over top of the quarters, at least it sure looks like it in the pics of my car when it was in the body shop........
I put quarters on a 68 Charger and Im pretty sure the roof was under the tab of the quarter panel.
Its been a little while I did that part of it so I could be wrong
I don't know my a$$ from a hole in the ground on the subject. Just regurgitating what I read somewhere. I'm actually pretty excited to get this roof skin swapped out. I don't think it will matter much whether it's on top or under the quarters, it's probably still gonna be a bitch.
Anybody have any suggestions on what the best glue/adhesive is for when the glass gets reinstalled?
Quote from: rikubot on May 02, 2017, 11:19:58 PM
Anybody have any suggestions on what the best glue/adhesive is for when the glass gets reinstalled?
I'm in the process of putting my car back together now...new quarters with a donor roof skin. You can see the donor here:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,110598.0.html
pm me if you have any specifics about the roof skin itself....and it does go over the quarter panels. There is a lot of led in the seam so remove it carefully. Its toxic stuff. I would suggest welding the seam shut too, which is my plan.
Very much appreciated dreamcar. How come they didn't weld that seam from the factory? Slow/difficult finishing?
Quote from: rikubot on May 03, 2017, 03:56:50 PM
Very much appreciated dreamcar. How come they didn't weld that seam from the factory? Slow/difficult finishing?
Not sure why, but here's a pic of where the spot welds were and the obvious signs of the seam having been buried in lead. The holes are on the edge of the roof skin at the quarter seam.
So that real clean metal there was where the lead was covering. I saw a picture of my friend's '69 and with original Copper paint and you could clearly see bulging where the seam was. I heard from a shop that you can't bondo then there because bondo shrinks. I think my buddy with the Scamp redid his with more lead...I think I will just bondo mine without welding as I intend on doing the quarters in the near future. My car is a driver and I try to do most of the repair stuff in a way that doesn't keep it off the road for very long.
Quote from: rikubot on May 03, 2017, 05:36:15 PM
So that real clean metal there was where the lead was covering. I saw a picture of my friend's '69 and with original Copper paint and you could clearly see bulging where the seam was. I heard from a shop that you can't bondo then there because bondo shrinks. I think my buddy with the Scamp redid his with more lead...I think I will just bondo mine without welding as I intend on doing the quarters in the near future. My car is a driver and I try to do most of the repair stuff in a way that doesn't keep it off the road for very long.
Bondo without welding????? The unwelded roof skin will move and the bondo will crack, so you're just wasting your time. Are you getting full quarters or just skins/patches?? If full quarters, don't do the roof first. If you weld the entire seam you will likely not need much bondo so a good quality fiberglass filler followed by regular filler, both applied very lightly, should not shrink that much with proper curing time. Also, if your putting a vinyl top on its extra hiding. Get your plan well figured out first.
I was planning on doing the whole quarter. My driver side quarter is made up of a few poorly repaired panels over the years. The reason I decided to tackle the roof skin first is because it has substantial holes in it from the rust caused by the vinyl top. I don't have a garage, so it made sense to me to get that squared away first. I've found through the forums on here that quarter replacement is substantially more involved. Do you have any suggestions? Maybe a few spot welds on the seam? I don't think I will be able to do the quarters for at least a little while. I'm currently looking to buy a house and a garage is high up on the list...
Quote from: rikubot on May 03, 2017, 05:59:40 PM
I was planning on doing the whole quarter. My driver side quarter is made up of a few poorly repaired panels over the years. The reason I decided to tackle the roof skin first is because it has substantial holes in it from the rust caused by the vinyl top. I don't have a garage, so it made sense to me to get that squared away first. I've found through the forums on here that quarter replacement is substantially more involved. Do you have any suggestions? Maybe a few spot welds on the seam? I don't think I will be able to do the quarters for at least a little while. I'm currently looking to buy a house and a garage is high up on the list...
Filling the seam up with weld (I'll be doing that) then a little filler would likely be your best bet. Eastwood sells a lead replacement but I'm going with trusted high quality filler. You could try actual lead but it can be toxic.
Like we've said, the roof skin goes over the quarter, so when you get to replacing the full quarters, whatever roof repair in the seam area will be undone. If you get a new AMD roof skin (they are not cheap), you'll be cutting it up when the new quarters are put in.
Maybe do a patch repair on your roof until you can do the new quarters and roof skin at the same time, which is the best way imo.
I actually just ordered a roof skin from Summit. $730 shipped. That is a LOT of money for me. I may have to reconsider my strategy.
A few things to consider if you're replacing the entire roof skin as one piece without cutting up your new AMD panel...
1 - The roof skin has about 2-300 spot welds going around it that need to be carefully drilled out or removed in some other way.
2 - The glass will need to removed.
3 - There are not only seams at the back (quarters), but also on the windshield posts up front. They are also filled with lead from the factory.
4 - The stainless trim will have to removed from the drip rails.
5 - Seams need to be filled (with weld, fiberglass filler, whatever) the primed or water/moisture gets in.
6 - If your car is like most (and mine) with rust issues, the more you remove/dig, the more damage you may find that will need to be addressed before you can continue with your original plan.
For all these reasons, I would not use a new one-piece AMD roof panel before doing the quarter repairs. I would do a quick fix now (patches with basic sheet-metal pieces) until you are ready to do the entire job properly patiently in a garage. Keep the new roof panel until you are ready for it. Again, PM me if you need to.
I really appreciate all of the advice. I didn't grow up around any of this kind of stuff, so you guys are all I've got. Getting a house with a garage will be key for me. Really, body work is the only thing I have left on the car. Coincidentally it seems to also be the most difficult and most time consuming. Probably most expensive as well. Again, thanks for the advice and links and for being an open book
Quote from: rikubot on May 03, 2017, 08:46:26 PM
I really appreciate all of the advice. I didn't grow up around any of this kind of stuff, so you guys are all I've got. Getting a house with a garage will be key for me. Really, body work is the only thing I have left on the car. Coincidentally it seems to also be the most difficult and most time consuming. Probably most expensive as well. Again, thanks for the advice and links and for being an open book
I've got tones of help on this forum so it's only fair that I help when I can. Good luck with the work!
Quote from: rikubot on May 03, 2017, 06:29:42 PM
I actually just ordered a roof skin from Summit. $730 shipped. That is a LOT of money for me. I may have to reconsider my strategy.
Get used to it, as it seems every charger part is $1000 lol
When we changed the roof skin and gutters on my 70 we even had to remake the inner part of the roof where the gutters spot weld on as there was nothing left. Pics in my restoration thread. Also had to change the front are rear roof inner section. She was a rusty one.
The plan was to find a solid used cut off as to be able to salvage all. Figured easy enough to find(5 years ago now) but nope couldnt find one so went AMD route.
I'm very bad at using this website. How do I get to your resto thread??
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=110598.0
Quote from: rikubot on May 04, 2017, 04:08:34 PM
I'm very bad at using this website. How do I get to your resto thread??
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,71829.25.html
Thanks for the link Fan. You are an absolute beast when it comes to body work and work ethic. That car is lucky to have ended up in your mitts. Any more updates on her?? The people need more!
hello in regards to replacing skin on roof i just fininished repacing a bad roof on my 69 charger. it is work but can be done if you are patient and have some skill level you will need a spotwelder , electric drill harborfrieght sells the tool for removing old spotwelds double endended remover tool but 2 of them this is the most work to the job i took a wire wheel to all the joints drilled a .187 in center of old spotwelds . also spend the extra money to replace driprails im guessing about 150 spotwelds or 2 cases of beer . also i spent about $30 on small snap clamps at harbor freight tackwelded half inch strips on the clamps to hold the roof in position critical check dimensions b4 and after in place critical also use adhesive on crossrails to hold skin tight acrossed the center do this once you are satisfied with positioning i used a paint pen once i had in place to mark positioning scribing lines as far as the where the skin meets rear i cut the old area out saved material and custum cut back into place yes another joint to weld but big deal . i used amd metal $700 $100 shipping doohhhh . worth it you will have to do a little cutting on the rear panels and finessing but im happy with the results fyi b4 removing the driprails fab a template to reposition the new rails to assure proper angularity. hope this helps
Yes that helps very much. So your drip rails were in pretty bad shape then? How was the structure underneath the skin?
I am afraid I might also need the front cowl structure under the roof skin. I can't really tell yet as there is too much metal in the way. Anyone know where I might get one? I can't seem to find a reproduction piece anywhere. Again, I'm not sure if I need it yet, but I like to plan for the worst..
This is the front cowl...the roof skin doesn't come close to it. Is this what you mean?
http://www.jegs.com/i/Auto-Metal-Direct/106/360-1466/10002/-1
If you mean the brace at the very front that forms part of the windshield structure too, there is no repro that I know of. You'll have to find a donor and probably all b body mopars have the same piece/brace. Unless you find one locally, I'd wait to see before buying one. I do have one but the shipping cost alone from Canada will be expensive. Besides, if yours is not that bad you can simply repair it.
I must sound very ignorant when I post questions. I should have gone with my gut and said "front roof bow." I saw it called a "cowl" on here somewhere and it didn't sound right but I went with it anyway. At least I would have been a little closer lol. But yes, you are correct. That's good to know that all B-bodies had the same structure. I believe we may have a couple 4-door cars at a yard here in town if it comes to that. I can see a small bit of mine through the roof skin holes but I won't know for sure how bad the damage is until I get a wirewheel on it. I don't think it's nearly as bad as the one in this picture:
Quote from: rikubot on May 10, 2017, 08:26:07 AM
I must sound very ignorant when I post questions. I should have gone with my gut and said "front roof bow." I saw it called a "cowl" on here somewhere and it didn't sound right but I went with it anyway. At least I would have been a little closer lol. But yes, you are correct. That's good to know that all B-bodies had the same structure. I believe we may have a couple 4-door cars at a yard here in town if it comes to that. I can see a small bit of mine through the roof skin holes but I won't know for sure how bad the damage is until I get a wirewheel on it. I don't think it's nearly as bad as the one in this picture:
I believe they all have the same structure...but I'm not 100% certain. Either way, if you have one that is near identical, it can probably be modified with a few strategic cuts and bends. Besides, people have been restoring all types of cars for years and many without the benefit of the repro market we have for Chargers. Good luck :cheers:
Quote from: rikubot on May 10, 2017, 08:26:07 AM
I must sound very ignorant when I post questions. I should have gone with my gut and said "front roof bow." I saw it called a "cowl" on here somewhere and it didn't sound right but I went with it anyway. At least I would have been a little closer lol. But yes, you are correct. That's good to know that all B-bodies had the same structure. I believe we may have a couple 4-door cars at a yard here in town if it comes to that. I can see a small bit of mine through the roof skin holes but I won't know for sure how bad the damage is until I get a wirewheel on it. I don't think it's nearly as bad as the one in this picture:
Yes she was crusty lol
66-70 b body the front roof bows are all the same along with upper/lower cowl and door hinge pillars. We had to change the rear bow also. Its been awhile, but i want to say the rear one is 68-70 charger specific.
Quote from: rikubot on May 05, 2017, 03:24:31 PM
Thanks for the link Fan. You are an absolute beast when it comes to body work and work ethic. That car is lucky to have ended up in your mitts. Any more updates on her?? The people need more!
Shes making the final leg of the race this year. Been a crazy 3 years. My mom passed away from the big C. We had our first born in 2015 with #2 due in 2 months. Had to put a new waterwell in at our house. Charger been on the back burner. I sold one of my other toys to make a place in the garage for it to come home to. Loosened up some funds to finish it aswell.
Found a correct cast date 440 engine to drop in sitting on an engine stand now. I bought a 4 speed set up for it this winter. Going to have to revisit the floor to put a 4 speed hump in lol. Complete legendary interior ready to go in with rechromed front bumper and a new amd rear bumper. Only parts i still need to buy are the rear upper door pads,weatherstrip kit, exhaust,brake lines.(thinking im going to upgrade to manual discs in the front.)
Have new leafs and front suspension ready to go in. Rear diff been rebuilt. Going to put it back as a roller to finish the body work first.
"Was" being the key word there. Your car really lucked out by finding its way into your hands. Your thread is very helpful and I'm glad you took the time to take and post pictures. Many thanks :notworthy: I do also believe the rear is different. I think the AMD site has it labeled "68-70 Charger only" or something along those lines. Makes sense considering the unique shape of the sail panels.
Very sorry to hear that, I saw you mentioned it in your post. Life loves to throw everything at us all at once. Glad you are back at your labor of love. Congrats on the new little one. Very excited to see your new pieces of the puzzle. I upgraded to power disc a couple months ago and it was $1000 well spent in my opinion. I went with 11" discs and the trapezoid dual diaphragm booster with the Hemi master that they just started repopping. 10x2.5" drums in back. She had 11x3" drums up front so naturally she stops waaaay better. I think she might stop even better if I lose the metering valve. I'm sure we are all excited to see your progress!
Quote from: rikubot on May 10, 2017, 06:18:53 PM
"Was" being the key word there. Your car really lucked out by finding its way into your hands. Your thread is very helpful and I'm glad you took the time to take and post pictures. Many thanks :notworthy: I do also believe the rear is different. I think the AMD site has it labeled "68-70 Charger only" or something along those lines. Makes sense considering the unique shape of the sail panels.
Very sorry to hear that, I saw you mentioned it in your post. Life loves to throw everything at us all at once. Glad you are back at your labor of love. Congrats on the new little one. Very excited to see your new pieces of the puzzle. I upgraded to power disc a couple months ago and it was $1000 well spent in my opinion. I went with 11" discs and the trapezoid dual diaphragm booster with the Hemi master that they just started repopping. 10x2.5" drums in back. She had 11x3" drums up front so naturally she stops waaaay better. I think she might stop even better if I lose the metering valve. I'm sure we are all excited to see your progress!
Thanks man.
Where did you buy your brake kit ?
I replaced my skin myself.
I know my stuff a little when it comes to welding and body work. When its a complete dismantled car its not to hard, but on a complete driving car its another story. You need to melt the old lead, cut the skin out and weld in a new one without ruining your other paintwork and interior. Thats not gonna be easy.
On a side note, the AMD skin fits fairly well.
@Charger Fan, I got my kit through Classic Industries. I did basically the factory kit. Came with the non pin style caliper and that was kind of a bummer. But vented and slotted rotors, steel braided lines with coupons cost me 485 I think. Then I went through pirate jack for the booster and master. Summit for the distribution block.
@ '69, that's cool, my car is in need of a full resto so I'm not real worried about damaging or scuffing stuff. But it's always great to know that the skin fits well. Mine is currently sitting in my turtle room haha
It looks like the factory used seam sealer to glue the roof skin to the roof braces. You guys have any recommendations? Should I use anything to seal the windshield around the new rubber gasket?
Quote from: rikubot on May 13, 2017, 10:05:53 AM
It looks like the factory used seam sealer to glue the roof skin to the roof braces. You guys have any recommendations? Should I use anything to seal the windshield around the new rubber gasket?
I posted on an autobody forum...I asked if that was a specialty product other than seam sealer, and it appears all it is is seam sealer. I'll need to know soon anyway.
Thank you for doing that Dreamcar. Dang, I sure am glad that's all there is, especially since it's $45 for 200ml!! Sorry for the sarcasm haha. But that 3M stuff is expensive no matter what liquid it is. They say it's the best though.
Quote from: rikubot on May 13, 2017, 05:49:52 PM
Thank you for doing that Dreamcar. Dang, I sure am glad that's all there is, especially since it's $45 for 200ml!! Sorry for the sarcasm haha. But that 3M stuff is expensive no matter what liquid it is. They say it's the best though.
This is what the body expert said regarding different types...he was talking about Lord Fusor stuff..."The problem with a lot of the "seam sealer" products is that they are solvent based and as it ages it hardens and cracks. The Fusor is moisture cured urethane that remains flexible"
http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ABS&Product_Code=FUSSS&Category_Code=JASS
That's not too bad. Is it okay to use that for the drip rails and ribs? Thanks for the link!
Quote from: rikubot on May 13, 2017, 07:53:55 PM
That's not too bad. Is it okay to use that for the drip rails and ribs? Thanks for the link!
From what I've been told, I'd use self leveling seam sealer for the drip rails.
I drilled small holes in the drip rail on the new roof skin and but welded the panel that way. Cleaning the welds afterwards and filling the rest up with a tiny amount of filler to straighten it all out. Sealed and primed it to laters have a nice result after its all painted. But I'm going for a vinyl top delete resto.
If I'd do it over today I'd use some of that 2K panel bonding adhesive. I used that on my new deck filler panel because I was to dumb to replace it the first time and I did'nt want welding spatter into my newly painted trunk. I was surprised by the strength and quality of those modern products. That would of saved me alot of welding and grinding time and make the process of sealing and straightening out alot easier.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,107225.25.html (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,107225.25.html)
Wich makes me think its over 2 years since I posted an update and not even all that much more there is to show......How life can get in the way sometimes
Quote from: six-tee-nine on May 15, 2017, 01:04:19 PM
I drilled small holes in the drip rail on the new roof skin and but welded the panel that way. Cleaning the welds afterwards and filling the rest up with a tiny amount of filler to straighten it all out. Sealed and primed it to laters have a nice result after its all painted. But I'm going for a vinyl top delete resto.
If I'd do it over today I'd use some of that 2K panel bonding adhesive. I used that on my new deck filler panel because I was to dumb to replace it the first time and I did'nt want welding spatter into my newly painted trunk. I was surprised by the strength and quality of those modern products. That would of saved me alot of welding and grinding time and make the process of sealing and straightening out alot easier.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,107225.25.html (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,107225.25.html)
Wich makes me think its over 2 years since I posted an update and not even all that much more there is to show......How life can get in the way sometimes
I've used panel adhesive on select parts too. It's amazing stuff. But it will expand at a different rate in the sun and make ghost lines, so where it's applied matters. I wouldn't use it for a structural piece either. But for some jobs, definitely.
Do you have any recommendations for an epoxy primer in an aerosol can?
Quote from: rikubot on May 16, 2017, 01:09:33 AM
Do you have any recommendations for an epoxy primer in an aerosol can?
Eastwood and Spaymax are the only ones I know that make it but I've never used it.
Quote from: rikubot on May 16, 2017, 01:09:33 AM
Do you have any recommendations for an epoxy primer in an aerosol can?
Yeah...... dont buy that stuff.
Buy a paint gun and a compressor and pressure reducer/water separator. No need for a fancy devillbiss paint gun of several hundereds of dollars. To apply primer you can buy alot cheaper and get nice resutls.
Buy epoxy primer and highbuild primer in large cans along with reducer and hardener. Works alot faster, alot cheaper in the end. And you can still use that stuff later on for instance on interior parts or smaller parts to get a better rattle can paint result.
You can paint smaller things alot nicer with rattle cans if the parts were prepped with primer from a spray gun. thicker coats will give you more material to smooth stuff out and will give you a better result when using thin spray can paint. And ont the large surfaces of the body it will work alot faster to shoot primer.
Quote from: six-tee-nine on May 18, 2017, 09:30:58 AM
Quote from: rikubot on May 16, 2017, 01:09:33 AM
Do you have any recommendations for an epoxy primer in an aerosol can?
Yeah...... dont buy that stuff.
Buy a paint gun and a compressor and pressure reducer/water separator. No need for a fancy devillbiss paint gun of several hundereds of dollars. To apply primer you can buy alot cheaper and get nice resutls.
Buy epoxy primer and highbuild primer in large cans along with reducer and hardener. Works alot faster, alot cheaper in the end. And you can still use that stuff later on for instance on interior parts or smaller parts to get a better rattle can paint result.
You can paint smaller things alot nicer with rattle cans if the parts were prepped with primer from a spray gun. thicker coats will give you more material to smooth stuff out and will give you a better result when using thin spray can paint. And ont the large surfaces of the body it will work alot faster to shoot primer.
What he said. The metal prep and primers are the base that your going to put $$$$$ and hours into. You dont want the base to be no good.
Damn it I had just ordered a cab from jegs... is there anywhere I can put it to make use of it? Lol
Also, I have a question about spot welding. I've got one from my buddy's shop, what kind of metal prep do I have to do to use it? My research has brought up mixed answers. Is that AMD coating ok to leave on? What about POR15? What conditions do I need to make a nice spot weld?
Quote from: rikubot on May 20, 2017, 12:18:47 PM
Damn it I had just ordered a cab from jegs... is there anywhere I can put it to make use of it? Lol
Also, I have a question about spot welding. I've got one from my buddy's shop, what kind of metal prep do I have to do to use it? My research has brought up mixed answers. Is that AMD coating ok to leave on? What about POR15? What conditions do I need to make a nice spot weld?
For non factory welding, I'd plug weld and not sport weld, and when doing that, I use weld through primer on the metal surfaces that overlap each other (after removing AMD coating in the weld area). I also remove the primer that's in the hole that I'm filling up with weld.
Thanks for the tip. That makes perfect sense. The video I watched on YouTube he did the same thing. Any preference for weld thru primers?
We ended up cutting the old roof off. The metal underneath was in really good shape except for right under the lip in the center of the windshield, but I think it's still usable without any repair other than smoothing it out for the new skin's lip. The work didn't suck too bad! I ended up storing my buddy's car and parking mine in his garage. I'll post some pics if you guys are interested in checking out the progress. I guess the next step is to wire wheel the frame and coat it with some POR15. Then prep the seams for the new metal.
Quote from: rikubot on May 20, 2017, 09:30:29 PM
Thanks for the tip. That makes perfect sense. The video I watched on YouTube he did the same thing. Any preference for weld thru primers?
We ended up cutting the old roof off. The metal underneath was in really good shape except for right under the lip in the center of the windshield, but I think it's still usable without any repair other than smoothing it out for the new skin's lip. The work didn't suck too bad! I ended up storing my buddy's car and parking mine in his garage. I'll post some pics if you guys are interested in checking out the progress. I guess the next step is to wire wheel the frame and coat it with some POR15. Then prep the seams for the new metal.
Another tip that I do...If there's an area with light rust that will be welded on, I wire brush it with a brass wire wheel on my angle grinder and scuff it with sand paper, add a little Ospho, wait 12h, then apply weld through primer. I use the weld through I get at my local autobody store.
Ospho
http://www.ospho.com
I've got a whole mess of people telling me to glue the skin down with panel bond. What are your thoughts on that?
Quote from: rikubot on May 21, 2017, 10:33:41 AM
I've got a whole mess of people telling me to glue the skin down with panel bond. What are your thoughts on that?
If you weld the skin at the sail panels and windshield posts, they yes it would probably work. The adhesives should have instructions on where to apply and where not to. Google it if they don't. But I would not apply the adhesive for the sail panels and posts because it does expand at a different rate in the sun and could create ghost lines after the paint job.
Agreed. So you would do it at the windshield and back glass, and drip rails, but only weld the A and C pillars? I read somewhere that a guy glued the drip rails only, but that almost defeats the purpose IMO.
Quote from: rikubot on May 21, 2017, 12:00:28 PM
Agreed. So you would do it at the windshield and back glass, and drip rails, but only weld the A and C pillars? I read somewhere that a guy glued the drip rails only, but that almost defeats the purpose IMO.
You'd be better off joining an autobody forum and asking. To me the only advantage of the bonding adhesive for the roof skin would be the time saved. I plan on welding mine all the way around.
The skin fits kinda strangely on the left C-Pillar. Did any of you guys experience this with your skins? The bottom edge where it meets the drip rail... The skin isn't clamped down but I don't think that will help that lip reach the drip rail any better. Id post a pic but I can't seem to figure out how to compress my photos and retain good enough quality.
Quote from: rikubot on May 21, 2017, 09:10:08 PM
The skin fits kinda strangely on the left C-Pillar. Did any of you guys experience this with your skins? The bottom edge where it meets the drip rail... The skin isn't clamped down but I don't think that will help that lip reach the drip rail any better. Id post a pic but I can't seem to figure out how to compress my photos and retain good enough quality.
A shortcut I've found to resize pics for this site while keeping them from turning miniscule, is, if you take them with your phone camera, text the pic to yourself. Then upload the received texted pic. The compression used in text is pretty impressive. The pic shows a lot of detail, yet is 200K or under. If it's still a little over 200k, you can resize it using windows paint from there, and it'll still be pretty good.
Quote from: darbgnik on May 22, 2017, 12:55:53 AM
Quote from: rikubot on May 21, 2017, 09:10:08 PM
The skin fits kinda strangely on the left C-Pillar. Did any of you guys experience this with your skins? The bottom edge where it meets the drip rail... The skin isn't clamped down but I don't think that will help that lip reach the drip rail any better. Id post a pic but I can't seem to figure out how to compress my photos and retain good enough quality.
A shortcut I've found to resize pics for this site while keeping them from turning miniscule, is, if you take them with your phone camera, text the pic to yourself. Then upload the received texted pic. The compression used in text is pretty impressive. The pic shows a lot of detail, yet is 200K or under. If it's still a little over 200k, you can resize it using windows paint from there, and it'll still be pretty good.
Same here. Resize using Paint then upload.
Figured I would just host it and keep the size large. Here you can see the lower part of that rear seam pretty well. I can get more pics later.
http://unpluggedupd.com/downloads.html
Quote from: rikubot on May 22, 2017, 09:33:53 AM
Figured I would just host it and keep the size large. Here you can see the lower part of that rear seam pretty well. I can get more pics later.
http://unpluggedupd.com/downloads.html
It will probably not fit perfect because the skin is designed to go under the quarter panel. So it's sitting a little higher than it should. Add to that that most aftermarket pieces are not perfect. In fact, most cars weren't perfect from the factory anyway. The flanged end of the skin is for tucking under the quarter. If your not going to tuck it under the quarter, you're likely going to have to cut the flange and but weld and/or add a backing strip behind the quarter.
http://www.autobodystore.com/door_rust.shtml
Wow that is crazy. I assumed that because the factory skin went over the top of the quarter the new skin would as well. I'm definitely going to have to reevaluate. Thank you dreamcar, I'm going to have to play with it when I get off work.
Do you have any close ups of your seams during your build?
Quote from: rikubot on May 22, 2017, 11:15:30 AM
Do you have any close ups of your seams during your build?
I'm still building....my AMD quarters go on permanently soon, followed by a donor factory roof skin. So mine will go together completely different.
I was looking at your pic again...if you can someone shove the flange from the skin under the quarter, you could punch holes in the quarter at the seam and plug weld. Test fit first though and punch the holes before installing the skin for the final time.
If anyone has any pics of their roof seems, I'd sure like to see them. Dreamcar, Do you know when you'll be stickin those quartrs on? I assume you'll be documenting it right?
Quote from: rikubot on May 22, 2017, 06:13:33 PM
If anyone has any pics of their roof seems, I'd sure like to see them. Dreamcar, Do you know when you'll be stickin those quartrs on? I assume you'll be documenting it right?
Within a month or two. Yes, I'll be documenting. Did you take pics before and while you took the skin off? Was I right that the AMD skin tucks under the factory quarter?
The picture is of the AMD quarter C pillar. The drop-down flange is where the factory roof skin goes on top off, which like I said would the opposite of what you have based on the picture you provided.
The 3m panel bond acts as a sealer at same time :cheers:
Welded a piece into the C section onto the 1/4, so that only a skim coat of filler is needed.
Welded along the front and rear window. Panel bond for the sides and cross supports. We stripped all the e coat off the amd panels and put good epoxy on.
For your everyday car id leave the e coat and just scuff and prime overtop. But on a resto not taking any chances.
A few pictures I took tonight:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8577.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8577.jpg.html)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8576.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8576.jpg.html)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8575.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8575.jpg.html)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8574.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8574.jpg.html)
Quote
Within a month or two. Yes, I'll be documenting. Did you take pics before and while you took the skin off? Was I right that the AMD skin tucks under the factory quarter?
The picture is of the AMD quarter C pillar. The drop-down flange is where the factory roof skin goes on top off, which like I said would the opposite of what you have based on the picture you provided.
I didn't take any pictures, but the factory roof skin went over the top. It has a slight little drop down where the seam ended but not like the new panel.
Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on May 22, 2017, 09:07:33 PM
The 3m panel bond acts as a sealer at same time :cheers:
Welded a piece into the C section onto the 1/4, so that only a skim coat of filler is needed.
Welded along the front and rear window. Panel bond for the sides and cross supports. We stripped all the e coat off the amd panels and put good epoxy on.
For your everyday car id leave the e coat and just scuff and prime overtop. But on a resto not taking any chances.
Did you do a new AMD roof and quarters on your car?
Quote from: rikubot on May 22, 2017, 10:05:03 PM
Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on May 22, 2017, 09:07:33 PM
The 3m panel bond acts as a sealer at same time :cheers:
Welded a piece into the C section onto the 1/4, so that only a skim coat of filler is needed.
Welded along the front and rear window. Panel bond for the sides and cross supports. We stripped all the e coat off the amd panels and put good epoxy on.
For your everyday car id leave the e coat and just scuff and prime overtop. But on a resto not taking any chances.
Did you do a new AMD roof and quarters on your car?
yup and drip rails and amd dutchman panel all at same time.
Do you have any pictures of it lining up? My roof skin seems a little off on the drivers side. Did you have to modify the seam that welds to the drip rail? Mine seems like the angle isn't square enough to sit flat on the drip rail. I feel like I need to bend it a little sharper.
Also, the roof skin went over the quarter skin seem, correct?
It's strange your replacement roof skin has a flanged end on it by the quarter. My factory skin definitely doesn't have it.
I'm no metal expert, but maybe a few relief cuts, and some hammer and dolly could get rid of that flange, and put the drip rail where you need it to be?
Your C pillar appears to bubble up a little at the end, which makes me wonder if your drip rail sides are a little too wide on the new skin, thus making the roof a little wide. Maybe the drip rails need a small trim on each side?
Your new pics definitely make me think that if you're not replacing the quarters, than the new skin needs to be shoved under the quarter. Why else would there be a flange?
I've taken two of your pics to show what I would cut off from the new roof skin in order to get the flange under the quarter panel, however all my advice is based on pictures on not being in front of your car.
Finally, at about 4 inches up from the bottom, my window opening (i.e. the empty space between the edges the glass sits on) is 43 1/4 inches. Since you have your window out, how wide is the opening on your car at 4 inches from the bottom? I greatly appreciate if you could measure.
I will measure that today. Thank you for drawing up the trim marks, that is very helpful. I'm still not convinced it's supposed to go under the quarter. The factory roof panel had a little dimple drop off like that as well, just not quite as exaggerated.
Quote from: rikubot on May 23, 2017, 08:37:02 AM
I will measure that today. Thank you for drawing up the trim marks, that is very helpful. I'm still not convinced it's supposed to go under the quarter. The factory roof panel had a little dimple drop off like that as well, just not quite as exaggerated.
I'll check the old piece of c pillar I have at home. It appears to me that if you just leave it on top like that, you're going to have a roof that suddenly steps up, unless you load it with filler to smooth it out which is never a good option. I'll see what my old c pillar looks like tonight. The higher part of the skin almost certainly meets up with quarter panel edge.
On one I was helping to replace with AMD....not mine....the flange was under the quarter. No way it would have ever been flush doing it the other way and this is a non vinyl car so needs to be smooth as there is nowhere to hide! It just wont go the other way without some serious massaging of the new panel. As said above...why would it have that step otherwise?
Quote from: rikubot on May 22, 2017, 10:21:14 PM
Do you have any pictures of it lining up? My roof skin seems a little off on the drivers side. Did you have to modify the seam that welds to the drip rail? Mine seems like the angle isn't square enough to sit flat on the drip rail. I feel like I need to bend it a little sharper.
Also, the roof skin went over the quarter skin seem, correct?
I dont think i do only whats posted in my thread. Pretty much every AMD piece needed some slicing and shrinking or hammy and dolly to fit right.
Here ya go...I found a pic of my donor roof after I removed the lead in the seam...The factory skin clearly goes over the quarter panel and because the factory quarter has a flanged end, they sit flush. In your case, you have a flanged end on the AMD skin and you should also have a flanged factory quarter panel end either still burried in lead or it has been cut off. So, you need to figure out what is left on your car and how to best manage with the new AMD piece. One thing is for sure, as mentioned by me and others, you can't just lay the new roof skin with it's flanged end on top of the factory quarter. Something needs modifying so they sit flush.
Thank you very much for that Dreamcar. I'm really wondering what the hell AMD was thinking with this skin. I'm wondering if they want me to trim that whole lip off?? I read an article with another b body (not charger) that the skin needed no trimming whatsoever. Your seem looks absolutely perfect where as mine is not even close.
Do ANYONE on here has done an A M D roof swap, please post pictures!!!! This thing has me losing my mind.
Thanks again though guys for trying to help me figure this out. This is my first body panel and I'm hesitant to chop on it until I'm sure...
Quote from: rikubot on May 23, 2017, 04:36:28 PM
Thank you very much for that Dreamcar. I'm really wondering what the hell AMD was thinking with this skin. I'm wondering if they want me to trim that whole lip off?? I read an article with another b body (not charger) that the skin needed no trimming whatsoever. Your seem looks absolutely perfect where as mine is not even close.
Do ANYONE on here has done an A M D roof swap, please post pictures!!!! This thing has me losing my mind.
Thanks again though guys for trying to help me figure this out. This is my first body panel and I'm hesitant to chop on it until I'm sure...
Nothing I'm going to say is meant with any disrespect, so please do not take it that way. :cheers: But you need to stop losing your mind.
AMD probably designed it for those that do not replace their quarters (like you're doing), therefore you need a lip/flanged area to tuck under the quarter for support. There has to be an overlap somehow like the factory had, and the AMD piece allows you to tuck the skin under the quarter so it sits flush on top. If you do buy their quarters and their roof, then you either trim the flanged quarter or you trim the flanged roof skin. I only bought quarters so I can use the factory skin which does not have the flanged area. And, the Charger roof skin is unique to Chargers, so you can't really compare it to another b body.
Remember, not every car is repaired the same way and to the same extent so it provides options. The most important thing for you to worry about is that the panels n
eeds to be flush at the seam (just look at the pic I provided). Sitting the skin on top like you have it will never achieve that. The only way for you to do that without replacing quarters is to tuck the new panel under the old one where AMD provided the flanged area and therefore have a two layers of metal like the factory had.
Did you end up cutting the flange off the quarter when you cut out your roof skin? Or is it still buried in lead? If you can find the flanged area on the quarter (if not cut off), then you can trim the roof if there's a wide enough overlap. When you look at the cut quarter, do you see two layers of metal at the end? If yes, the flange is still there.
No offense taken. I realize I have a whole lot less experience and know-how in the car world whether it comes to mechanical, electrical, or body. I'm just thankful that you guys are willing to let me pick your brains and that you are willing to share your experiences.
How close are the lip/flanged areas on your new quarters to the factory ones you removed?
When I pulled off the roof skin, I was very careful to leave the quarters intact. I will get some more pictures of the car with the skin off again. Today is my mom's birthday but I will be able to get some tomorrow after work.
Quote from: rikubot on May 23, 2017, 05:53:58 PM
No offense taken. I realize I have a whole lot less experience and know-how in the car world whether it comes to mechanical, electrical, or body. I'm just thankful that you guys are willing to let me pick your brains and that you are willing to share your experiences.
How close are the lip/flanged areas on your new quarters to the factory ones you removed?
When I pulled off the roof skin, I was very careful to leave the quarters intact. I will get some more pictures of the car with the skin off again. Today is my mom's birthday but I will be able to get some tomorrow after work.
That area of my quarters was recycled last year so I have no idea. But it doesn't help you anyway because I have a factory roof skin without a flange. I forward to seeing the pictures. Any chance you can measure the window opening next time your near your car, about 4 inches from the bottom? :cheers:
The factory skin was recessed at the seam too, just not as sharp of a crimp. They laid in a trough of lead and ground it smooth.
Quote from: Charger-Bodie on May 23, 2017, 07:04:48 PM
The factory skin was recessed at the seam too, just not as sharp of a crimp. They laid in a trough of lead and ground it smooth.
Yup. I'm looking at my factory roof skin right now and it does have a very light recess/flange. However, from the factory, the skin still sat on top of the more recessed quarter panel. Unless the OP can find the flange on his factory quarter panel, I would tend to want to tuck the AMD roof, which looks very recessed from the pictures, under the factory quarter. Better pics will help.
Yeah the new one definitely has a more pronounced recess. I'll get some more pictures tomorrow and some without the skin on. The seams that you guys have been posting look way better than anything I can fathom right now.
If you click on my build thread in my signature, you can see how the AMD quarters fit under the factory roof skin, about halfway down the first page. Just for more info on how it should look?
Quote from: rikubot on May 23, 2017, 10:24:02 PM
Yeah the new one definitely has a more pronounced recess. I'll get some more pictures tomorrow and some without the skin on. The seams that you guys have been posting look way better than anything I can fathom right now.
You're factory quarter should have a fairly obvious recess, unless it was cut off or it's still buried in lead filler.
Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on May 22, 2017, 10:16:26 PM
Quote from: rikubot on May 22, 2017, 10:05:03 PM
Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on May 22, 2017, 09:07:33 PM
The 3m panel bond acts as a sealer at same time :cheers:
Welded a piece into the C section onto the 1/4, so that only a skim coat of filler is needed.
Welded along the front and rear window. Panel bond for the sides and cross supports. We stripped all the e coat off the amd panels and put good epoxy on.
For your everyday car id leave the e coat and just scuff and prime overtop. But on a resto not taking any chances.
Did you do a new AMD roof and quarters on your car?
yup and drip rails and amd dutchman panel all at same time.
Did you have to mess with the lips of the roof skin where it attaches to the drip rails? Do you have up close pictures?
Quote from: darbgnik on May 22, 2017, 11:30:07 PM
It's strange your replacement roof skin has a flanged end on it by the quarter. My factory skin definitely doesn't have it.
I'm no metal expert, but maybe a few relief cuts, and some hammer and dolly could get rid of that flange, and put the drip rail where you need it to be?
The flange is as deep as the photo makes it look. It's pretty subtle. Once I trimmed it, it fit up against the quarter pretty nicely
Quote from: rikubot on May 23, 2017, 08:37:02 AM
I will measure that today. Thank you for drawing up the trim marks, that is very helpful. I'm still not convinced it's supposed to go under the quarter. The factory roof panel had a little dimple drop off like that as well, just not quite as exaggerated.
Completely forgot to get that measurement. I will next time for sure.
Couple pics:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8607.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8607.jpg.html)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8609.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8609.jpg.html)
Quote from: rikubot on May 28, 2017, 06:45:59 PM
Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on May 22, 2017, 10:16:26 PM
Quote from: rikubot on May 22, 2017, 10:05:03 PM
Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on May 22, 2017, 09:07:33 PM
The 3m panel bond acts as a sealer at same time :cheers:
Welded a piece into the C section onto the 1/4, so that only a skim coat of filler is needed.
Welded along the front and rear window. Panel bond for the sides and cross supports. We stripped all the e coat off the amd panels and put good epoxy on.
For your everyday car id leave the e coat and just scuff and prime overtop. But on a resto not taking any chances.
Did you do a new AMD roof and quarters on your car?
yup and drip rails and amd dutchman panel all at same time.
Did you have to mess with the lips of the roof skin where it attaches to the drip rails? Do you have up close pictures?
No because I'm using a factory donor roof skin from another car, so it fits perfectly. But don't be surprise, like I've said before, if your drip rails are too wide and need trimming. Aftermarket pieces often need trimming.
Quote from: rikubot on May 28, 2017, 06:56:05 PM
Couple pics:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8607.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8607.jpg.html)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8609.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8609.jpg.html)
The second pic tells the most
if everything else fits right. I suspect the roof has a much more significant flange to it vs. the quarter panel. Does it? If yes, the two pieces would probably work much better together if you tuck the roof under the quarter. They would sit much more flush. You could then fill the gap with weld first, then just a little filler.
I see. That makes sense. I bet it's pretty difficult to get a panel off and not screw it up.
Well, it's not that it's too wide, it doesn't quite hit the edge of the rail, just like the factory skin, but it doesn't appear to sit square in the rail because it seems the stamping didn't crease the lip enough. It's probably way simpler a problem than I'm making it out to be. But like I said, my buddy doesn't think it's a problem. I just don't know if it's going to make enough weld surface the way it is now. And honestly it could be just fine the way it is. Here's where my lack of experience has me second guessing myself.
About the question about the picture: the flange is not as dramatic as the picture makes it look. If I remember correctly, the skin sits just about even with the quarter when it's sitting on top of it. I will get a pic of it with a straight edge on it next time. But in the picture it definitely looks pretty pronounced.
Quote from: rikubot on May 28, 2017, 07:26:43 PM
About the question about the picture: the flange is not as dramatic as the picture makes it look. If I remember correctly, the skin sits just about even with the quarter when it's sitting on top of it. I will get a pic of it with a straight edge on it next time. But in the picture it definitely looks pretty pronounced.
THIS! yes, use a straight edge, and if its just about right, then leave the roof on top of the quarter, plug weld it first, then fill it. If you have to take the roof off 20 times, if does matter as long as you get the last test fit right before welding.
"because it seems the stamping didn't crease the lip enough".
We would need to see this, or at least I do. I don't get it.
Quote from: Dreamcar on May 28, 2017, 07:30:44 PM
"because it seems the stamping didn't crease the lip enough".
We would need to see this, or at least I do. I don't get it.
Okay, I will try my best to get a picture illustrating what I mean. I'm trying to think of a way to draw it that might explain what I mean.
Update: there is no way in hell I could draw what I'm trying to describe. It would be even more confusing to the situation. Failed miserably lol
Sorry in advance. Hopefully this will make sense.
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8673.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8673.jpg.html)
Quote from: rikubot on May 28, 2017, 08:20:36 PM
Sorry in advance. Hopefully this will make sense.
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8673.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8673.jpg.html)
You just need to bend and clamp it for welding.
Some more pics:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8682.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8682.jpg.html)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8680.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8680.jpg.html)o
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8679.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8679.jpg.html)
You can see a little better how the flange is a bit more subtle than the other pics made it look.
Heres where I meant the skin comes up short from the drip rail for about 3-4 inches.
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/mikeranus/IMG_8683.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/mikeranus/media/IMG_8683.jpg.html)
the seam looks fine now with the level sitting on it. How is it fitting everywhere else around the car? Is it hanging up anywhere that could affect how it fits in that corner? What about around the windows?
You could maybe make a relief cut and pull in down towards the drip rail and weld it back up after (see green line representing the cut and arrow)? Making small relief cuts like this is not uncommon with new panels.
Everything else looks pretty good. I measured the two c-pillars along the seam and the driver's side came up about a quarter inch shorter than the other. Kind of a strange mistake for AMD to make but it seems like that's the only possible explanation for that seam coming up short. I think that relief cut is the only way around that issue. The drip rail seams I think will fit better in the drip channel once I bend them a little more. It's definitely not hanging up anywhere. The top of the c-pillar looks pretty flush after the trimming. The trimming helped quite a bit but I am going to measure that distance on each side again to make sure it's the skin that's uneven, then probably put that cut in it right where you have it drawn.
Just a suggestion:
If you do a relief cut, slice it as close as you can to the bend.
The farther out you in a flat panel the better the chance you will get oil canning or distortion.
Quote from: mopar4don on May 31, 2017, 02:40:19 PM
Just a suggestion:
If you do a relief cut, slice it as close as you can to the bend.
The farther out you in a flat panel the better the chance you will get oil canning or distortion.
Thanks for the advice. The longer the cut, the less the bend, right? I am a little afraid the warp the metal welding in a little piece there...pretty much just a sliver.
What do you all think of using panel bond to attach the roof skin?
Quote from: rikubot on May 31, 2017, 11:35:40 PM
What do you all think of using panel bond to attach the roof skin?
we only welded mine at the front and rear window channels,a pillars,at the 1/4 seam.
Used the bond all along the drip rails and cross pieces.